I think Walts idea for Epcot was sort of realized though. Disney World itself has hotels, shopping districts, mass transportation, theme parks with amazing technology. The sponsorships of tech based companies is about the only idea that is sort of DOA, but I think if Disney starts hosting one of those tech expos like up in New York once a year I think it would keep with the idea of Walts dream.
There's actually a neighborhood *next to* Disney world. Celebration is expressly not on Disney world property and not integrated as part of the things OP pointed out.
Yeah but it would've been cool if it was all arranged the way it was originally imagined. An actual city. As it is now it's more or less the same as other places like Universal. Disney still doesn't have things like a school, parks, huge shopping complex, etc. And the transportation as it is now is definitely not as good as the network of people movers and underground highways like Walt imagined.
In the archival footage you used in this presentation, it is clear that a large and wonderfully detailed model of the place was built that included lighting and moving traffic. This was quite a feat before LED's, fiber optic light routing, or miniaturized electronics. Whatever happened to this beautiful feat of model making? Does it even still exist? Ditto for that enormous wall map of the Florida Project property.
Great question! Unfortunately that amazing model doesn't exist any longer in it's complete form. It used to be a part of the 2nd floor of the Carousel of Progress back when it was in Disneyland. However when the ride moved to Florida the entire model didn't come along with it. That said, a portion of the model did get moved over and can now be seen while on the TTA towards the beginning of the ride. After passing the castle and entering a tunnel for the first time, guests pass the model city. As for the map, I'm not sure. I know there's a mock-up of it in Hollywood Studios in Walt: One Man's Dream, but I'm not sure where the real map is.
Making such a model wasn't hard at all. Sure, old incandescent lightbulb are inefficient - so what? I have some +50 year transparent legobricks with lights. it is still a lot of work though.
Idk, doesnt seem very well planned out and extemely limited in growth and development. But theres a bunch of planned cities out there. Eg, Brasilia, the capital of Brazil, was a planned city from the 60s, made for about 500k people. Unsurprisingly, it went a bit different.
Places like Rotterdam Norway (rebuilt after WW2) have covered walkways that get pulled out when it rains. Nothing fancy but if it's raining or snowing it's just a little nicer to still walk outside. Hard to explain, not full coverage but coverage that can be swiftly added. In the same way some places in Wisconsin and Minnesota connect the buildings with "cat walks"(?) to keep people out of the snow and cold to get to parking. More places in the city should think of these ideas where it is rainy or cold. Many restaurants also started to see the benefits of outdoor pergolas. As for People Movers, sky gondolas, or Trolley that's a waste of money as it "limits" movement to a single course at a high cost when people can walk, Uber, Bike, drive, or even take a bus for much cheaper in a city. But they make for fun Disney rides. It's also what makes Disney cost so much and why modern EPCOT charges about 120 dollars a day for a person to have the honor to also spend money to shop and eat there.
It wouldn't have ended well. The whole idea of EPCOT depended on the concept of benevolent autocratic urban planning. But after the legal reforms of 1965, the sort of controls they needed to have over EPCOT no longer existed. You could not create a city of 20,000 people, even on private property, where democracy didn't apply. The closest thing today to what Disney intended is probably Singapore. The other thing is that Walt Disney came up with this idea of a testbed for "modern" city ideas at a time when the ideas for modernization of cities were almost all bad. Almost all the ideas for new cities and urban architecture in that era were terrible.
I think your reasoning about developing new products constantly is kind of askewed. It wasn't about having every new PRODUCT. It was about every new TECHNOLOGY. It isn't just Sony's newest TV or Samsungs newest Dryer, it was about having the newest types of technology. Innovative things that did need real in home testing. It simply isn't about putting out new products to the residents of Epcot. The promo video shows a lady whose cabinet automatically raises with food in it. It's innovations that truly make differences that Disney wanted at Epcot. Real life-changing ideas. The best example would be desktop 3D printers. Epcot would've been a great place to test their actual usefulness in the home as more than something to tinker with, as they are being studied today
A very good point. As was said it would have taken many, many years to complete a project of such a grand scale. So it would have opened in phases. Then the updating could be done in phases as well. Where you do get the latest technology when it is time to update your home and they move on to the next neighborhood needing updating where they then get the latest technology.
I also think residents would be willing to pay for access to new technologies. The companies might sell them "at cost" or at a significant discount in return for feedback on them, but I don't think any company would or should be required to install every new technology in every home. Thinking about the kind of person that would want to live in EPCOT, though, they'd be the early adopters of things anyhow. Extra early access to really cool stuff would be right up their alley.
Also, the companies would not have to equip all homes. If residents signed up to certain things, you would have like a subscription based new dishwasher. Say I don't care about best TVs, I could ask for newest tech in bed mattresses etc
it won't be possible to recreate perfectly tho, since neither of those games allow pedestrian travel from underground roads to the surface or have underground loading points for cargo, so th 2 underground layers woudn't be possible to make
Robert Harris he was murdered, his ideas were dangerous/threatening to companies and government, he was murdered and covered up like other brilliant people. It sounds crazy, yes, I wish/hope I'm wrong but there are too many questions and no answers, I thought for such an amazing person to die and no reason announced or mentioned worries me. Celebrity deaths are assassinations used to distract the mass public from... Whatever they want to distract us from, business deals, Bills/laws/amendments etc. I hope I'm just paranoid... but expect the worst and be prepared.
I think EPCOT was Walt's greatest idea, in both the scope and its potential benefit to mankind. And although it's sad to see it never happened, it gives me hope that we still may one day have an Asimov/Roddenberry/Disney-like future where technology continues to make life better for everyone. If... Skynet... doesn't kill us all first... here's hoping.
personally I think it would have worked as long as Walt was directing it, because Walt was the kind of man who knew when to take risks, how to do it and in what ways. look at snow white, people told him he was crazy and it was a major success. Look at Cinderella, nearly bankrupt the company, was a major success. Look at Disneyland, nobody had faith in that project except for Walt and it's completely changed the way we see theme parks. So as far out there as epcot was if Walt saw it working most likely he was right
Just imagine what they could do NOW? They have grown into a goddamn Empire with political power & media control. Especially after the take over of 20th Century Fox and all affiliated licenses and TV Channels.
maybe if the musk wasn't focused on space travel,and.....had a very creative kind hearted,intelligent good friend/sibling...we could have had an epcot a little later. ah well. maybe once we get to mars,we can bring him out of cryo-freeze,find him a partner,and then we can have martian epcot.
I personally believe this would be some utopian Jetson horror movie, but it actually came to fruition in one place. the rotunda near Englewood Florida is very similar, but all suburban. my grandparents live therr, it's very strange, but complete with the useless canal system too.
First, I appreciate your video and mostly agree with your points. I do have a couple of things that I disagree on, after having studied the EPCOT Project, read books on the subject, etc. I do think that your criticism comparing it to today's world is a bit like saying Google was a short-sighted thing because in 2060 everyone downloads things instantly into their brain. The EPCOT plan is over 50 years old. Also, it is interesting that it was going to be designed for the workers of Disney World to reside there....Disney sort of does this today with their international and college programs now, they live on dorms and take buses. I think the layout and transportation would have been its greatest achievement, something that we're desperately trying to fix now (hi Elon Musk). Even if EPCOT was built and failed after 20 years, the rest of the world would have taken the best parts of it and made it better.
J Philosopher with all the green technology of 2017 and past year it would be working the only problem would be the employment a'd development of the city, the city requires everyone in it to have a job but the city closed in a dome cannot evolve and the population rising would create problems after few generations
There is shit ton of planned cities around world. EPCOT would be absolutely nothing special in that regard. And transportation? I don't see any problems with any kind of transport in Europe or Asia. Nobody is desperate to fix anything as it work very very well. There are ready, mass produced solutions. Just for example USA must start to implement them.
J Philosopher I completely agree with your comment, that's how I feel. You can't really say it would have failed just based off of today's comparison. It would have definitely set a platform for these big great technology companies of today. So you can't say that because Google is so great today, that Walts intro to technological advancements would've failed in those days. I think he had great ideas that could've rushed technology (which, yes, could've been a downfall). In fact I think that a lot of these inventors, scientists and technologist most likely would've started under a company like Disney. Meaning Google, Apple, etc. All of their success may have been accredited to Disney and they may have been different today. But I had no idea Walt had THESE types of plans at that time for Epcot. It might have scared people in those days all that futuristic stuff, but by today's standard I look at this like "hmm looks like a mall, looks like a campus, looks like a hospital". He and this idea was definitely ahead of its time. I think the biggest downfall would've been the reaction and attraction to it. If we're talking 60s,70s....hell even in the 90s something like this could cause hesitancy. But today heading towards 2020. Oh yes it would definitely work.
Cities don't have to be huge or old. Examples from Poland Smallest city 500people Wiślica And from 01.01.2018 there is already 7 new cities: Józefów nad Wisłą, Łagów, Otyń, Radoszyce, Sanniki, Tułowice, Wiślica(
J Philosopher the Venus Project is a continuation and parallel research project by Jacques Fresco. It shares many of the design qualities with a more modern spin.
The "home upgrade system" could have been subscription based, where a resident could pay a premium for the latest technology, and they could receive rewards for giving reviews to the companies. People love those sorts of things.
Epcot makes me think of Rapture from Bioshock XD But seriously, I always felt the idea could work but only for a while. Epcot could've potentially been the end all be all place to experiment with and create new technology but only for about a decade or so. Eventually, new ways would develop and Epcot would become the old way of doing things. And this is of course assuming humanity didn't screw it up somehow as it often does. There's a reason why we say; "This is why we can't have nice things."
Dragonrider1227 J Philosopher my guess is that it was the other way around Epcot is probably the inspiration for Rapture and other stories about a rich man building a city of tomorrow. while also being the reason why these types of stories have something serious wrong with the city probably cause Disney was unable to finish his grand project.
If you read a little about it though, the only humanity that could screw it up was disney himself. He planned to retain all property rights, you would live there under some sort of contract, no government to balloon and become corrupt. If you don't like the place, then don't live there. Everyone was going to have to work, no free housing to gradually degrade into slums. If you wouldn't work, you had to leave. It honestly sounds like a GOOD idea of a city model.
The concept for the original version of Epcot has been one of my favorite pieces of Disney lore since I first read about it in the Disney Studio Story book by the great Brian Sibley. Given how Walt was willing to move heaven and earth to make his dreams a reality, as well as his knack for finding suitable compromises for ideas too grandiose for what was possible at the time, I'm certain something close to the Epcot of his imagination would have been feasible in an extended lifetime (he might still die during that fifteen-year stretch, but it would get done). It probably would have been easy to get a sizable Disney-loving population into the apartments, and I'd expect a decent amount of them willing to accept copious marketing and product testing into their everyday lives (it's the American way!). Heck, the days for "life upgrades" might have become a cherished biannual event for Epcot City (they'd be nuts to try and do it every year), sort of a cross between a convention and a garage sale. Who's to say it couldn't have worked on some level?
Here's my opinion. EPCOT was to be a demonstration city, (a person would live there for a year, then shift out) and if Disney history has shown anything, it's unwise to bet against Walt Disney. I think it would work
Yes, it could have worked, but in a way that Disney didn't exactly envision. Today, the new shopping norm is to put apartments above or very near retail spaces. With shopping spaces like Santana Row in San Jose and Main Street in Cupertino, this is very similar to what Disney had envisioned. Had Disney built apartments or condos above the retail spaces inside of Epcot, I'm quite sure he could have sold them at premium prices and still had Epcot be a success. The difficulty is the admission price. With people living on the property, you can't exactly charge admission to those folks. Also, how would they handle entry and exit for those living in Epcot? This is likely the biggest reason the idea was scrapped. Epcot would have had to figure out some way to work as both a tourist destination with admission and manage multifamily dwellings. If you did rent one of those spaces, how does Epcot handle loud parties, inviting guests to your home, dogs barking, outdoor BBQ and all other potential possibilities, etc. Being a landlord and being a theme park owner are entirely two different coins.
I went on a segway tour through Celebration Florida where I was told that some of Walt Disney's ideas about Epcot were taken and used to make the neighborhoods and houses to form a community Walt imagined.
+Sydney Marie Probably worth looking at news coverage of atrocities in the state over the past two years, and/or rising sea levels. :-o If it's neither of those, it'll be the rain. Contrary to popular belief, Florida is the United States' "British Weather" simulator... ;-)
I think a solution for that last issue (updating all homes constantly) would be solved by updating only a few homes at a time, testing each product/innovation in maybe 1000 homes rather than all 7000.
For example a modern vision of Epcot would eschew cars altogether Instead having a reliable public transportation system (think autonomous electric buses) and would focus on walkabilty and natural spaces as well as not having a defined downtown and residential area, instead having good quality mid level buildings mixed in with shops and local businesses around sidewalks bike trails parks and gardens The original Epcot vision is soo 1950s-60s retro future industrialist, individual cars and road systems instead of public transportation and walkable spaces are what’s ruining cities Good for cars = bad for residents and pedestrians
@@flamingpi2245 Still would likely have sort of warehouses at the edge of the city accessible by the public transportation to allow people to travel out of the city to other places since cars outside the city would still be a necessity*.
*Give me 5 years and I'll turn EPCOT into a shiny light, 20 and I'll have restarted the high technology industry, 30? I'll have people in orbit and planning our journey to Mars.* - Walt Disney in 2225, New Disney world.
I love the concept of EPCOT, if I could I would build it. but the one thing I'd likely leave out is the constant updating. in fact while I've known about and loved the concept for years, I didn't know or realize/register that part of the plan to keep updating the homes to make them showcases for the "homes of tomorrow." so if you cut that part out, it seems far more likely a plan that could work, the next issue is....all the cities are basically here, people aren't going to tear down their city to rebuild it as this plan. and as you said a lot of the city center relies on tourists to see this new marvel of a city, so if every city is similar you'd lose a lot of that traffic and such. Now if you could get this idea to flow in developing nations and focus less on tourists(not making the bullseye a hotel/convention center), it could maybe work.
The biggest advantage is the transportation system. (The home technology part, whatever. It's just to get peoples' attention.) But, even Disney World doesn't use its own transportation system (the cool parts). Only a few hotels have monorail access. The poor-people Disney resorts, forget about it, and even the Dolphin and Swan got bypassed.
99% agree. In researching this I also came to the conclusion that it would be highly unlikely that tech companies would be ok with exposing their new technology, and then installing that in all the homes every time. However, this was just the first draft and I believe with Walt's leadership, he would have came to a final working draft. I still think the design of the city would promote community and that alone is still worth building and has not been built in the same idea of EPCOT. There could be upgrades made as new technology was presented. There were also a lot of other challenges to be worked out like no schools, no seniors, and everyone had to work and it would change out the population every once in a while. I still think it is a good idea without the technology piece just to promote community and for safety regarding keeping vehicles separate from pedestrians.
EPCOT is literally one of my favorite places on Earth, even in its current form, but I long for Disney's vision to be fully realized. Jacque Fresco in Venus Florida has his own designs, and he's over 100 yrs of age.
idk, the guy died at 101 years old like last year I think, I've been making contact with the team to get them ideas on how to 1. peacefully do this, and 2. actually do it.
I asked Jacque once about the relationship between the Venus Project and Walt. He said he sent his plans to Disney but never heard back or got an appointment. After that Walt came up with Epcot... the world may never know!
What's funny is that most cities today tend to be built like this one was planned to be, and from a city design perspective it doesn't end up working out very well. I definitely appreciate the public transportation options that were included though; even if it wasn't as good as it would have needed to be, it always helps functionality
EPCOT as a city of the future would have failed in it's stated goal even if it did end up being just a regular city. It fails for the same reason the city of tomorrow and all the other predictions fail. That is you can't predict the future because you don't know what new technology will be created that completely transform how people live. The internet is a prime example of this as so many things we take for granted wouldn't have even been thought of just 30 years ago, let alone way back when Epcot city was being planned.
Great video. Would have been really neat to see what the finished product of Walts fully realized vision would have looked like. Ultimately I think you are right with the changes in corporate culture and just the pace at which tech is updated in modern times no way they could have kept up.
One person's vision is another person's hell. Besides the technical considerations, Disney would have had to find 20,000 people who were willing to live and work and play the way Disney thought best. Would the 20,000 have all been Disney employees and their families? People like to do their own thing, and while you can allow for that to some degree, what usually happens is something entirely different and unexpected. Not to mention how people might change over time. Even if Epcot had been built, it would have undoubtedly changed in ways that Disney did not envision and could not plan for.
This is an absolutely ridiculous criticism. 1. No they wouldn't all be Disney employees. 2. As opposed to now when people are careful about what urban design they live in? Nobody does that. 3. EPCOT didn't tell anyone who to live their life, it gave them MORE OPTIONS. What the fuck are you even going on about? He could probably find 20 million people willing to sign up today. 4. You think cities are built by the people? City governments make all the decisions, and they are usually idiots. Idiots design cities now. Why do you think Disney's vision would "hell" and even if it were "hell" to 50% of the population, that'd still be over 100 million people who disagree.
This wasn't a critical consideration. It was a bullshit straw man packaged as criticism. Nowhere does it say Disney would tell anyone how to live their lives. All he was doing was arranging where things might go to best facilitate quality of life. He was proposing spending a massive amount of money to make a city vastly more convenient and far more options than any city has today. Imagine if you could park under your house with your car, and then take it for a drive on roads that have 0 pedestrians, 0 big rigs and commercial vehicles, and about 1/10th as many intersections? You'd fly right to work or the store. And if you didn't want to drive, you have a monorail or people mover above ground to ride right downtown. And on the ground level children play safely in large green open spaces. And you work WHEREVER YOU WANT, and you go shop or party or visit WHATEVER YOU WANT.
Yeah, I felt like the video really overlooked a lot of social questions about the people living in this city. He died in the mid-60's. What else was going on/about to happen? The Vietnam War, the Civil Rights movement, second-wave feminism, the Stonewall riots, etc.
EPCOT was designed to be ever changing, so if something didn't work, a new, better way of doing things would've been part of the city. That's kind of the whole point of experimentation. Ultimately, I don't know if Walt's version of EPCOT would've worked like he wanted, but one thing's for sure, he was always told he shouldn't do things like feature animated films & amusement parks & yet against all odds, he succeeded. Disney's EPCOT may have succeeded just as well.
I hope that your closing statement isn't true, that someone will one day build a highly efficient city like EPCOT. At the very least, it would make a great college campus, maybe on a slightly smaller scale.
Thats really intriguing. Yeah Disney sure had alot of vision back then. Your probably right as well, it would probably just become another city of the present because cities are run by people. XD Which we all know how that turns out. It is a interesting idea though.
Walt could never have foreseen the rapid accelerations of new development in the tech and construction industries that would come in the decades after his death. He never could have imagined something like the internet, certainly not in its current form. And even the Epcot we got - a sort of perpetual world's fair and tech showcase - has gotten to be pretty dated due to unforeseen worldwide advances and general apathy from Disney executives (which is only now reversing with money and effort finally being allocated to the Florida parks again). Overall, I'm glad Roy decided not to adhere to Walt's original vision.
This is something I've also wondered about especially considering that Walt was already in his 60's when he came up with this and it was based on older ideas about technology and innovation. Maybe Orlando could have become a second Silicon Valley? I guess we'll never know.
Your videos are so well thought-out and informative! I just found your channel today and each thing I watch is more fascinating than the last. You're doing a stellar job!
Interesting point, but a lot of companies test market in real cities instead. Too bad Epcot didn't take off though, would have been a nice place to visit at least.
It's good for the memory of Walt Disney that it never got built or started. It would have been his Spruce Goose. In the end it's not the tech/construction/design that would have doomed it. It's the fact that (as I learned elsewhere) that residents were to stay and work a year-and bring their families--No home ownership. No say-so in the running of the place. Then return to their old life, work, school, home? THink how hard it is just to take off a few days. The constant turnover in families, workers, neighbors would be anti-community. I love gadgets but a community focused on new gadgets and machines seems heartless.
I've watched this several times. Your content, structure and delivery are just spectacular, Rob. I hope you read this - because I think everything Walt hoped for concerning EPCOT is still being realized in the development and expansion of Walt Disney World. I think it IS an example to the world of how mankind can create something wonderful that edifies and inspires the world. (BTW, the Pyramids did the same thing!.)
What EPCOT ended up being was a permanent Worlds Fair....unfortunately, Worlds Fairs are a relic of the past, killed by the ridiculous ease of information gathering without have to travel to a theme park
IMO Walt's EPCOT would've been a smashing success and an example to the world. It would have brought to rise huge innovations in city life that would've influenced other cities, not just technologically but also in terms of governance. Walt's EPCOT had the potential to be a model society designed from the start to adapt enduringly with the times. I truly believe EPCOT would have changed the world and it's truly tragic that Walt's life was cut short before he could bring his most audacious most beautiful dream to fruition.
Well he wasn't trying to obtain every citizen. It was to serve as a blueprint for other leaders to play off of. If the city was full, he didn't have to keep accepting more people into it. If its full, its full, either expand or let the other guys deal with the problem as in, developers would've caught on that it was wildly successful and started doing the work for him like the plan was. Again, it was to set an example, not cultivate a one city utopia.
1:12 I've seen a lot of wealthy philanthropist minded people strive for building their version of the ultimate community and city, but they never really pan out, or at least on in the way they want. When you try to create a city from whole cloth you gloss over details like garbage collection routes, open air shops or malls or store fronts, low income areas prone to crime ... lack of sunlight or lack of shade. Cities are organic creations. They are molded by the area and terrain, not because someone thinks something would be cool.
the show room of homes is a bit of a misnomer. with Walt trying to monetize every aspect of the park, the "latest products" would only be given to residents that payed (and a few show homes), not handed out for free to everyone. the bigger issue is that you would be living in a city owned by the corporation, pay taxes to the incorporated city corp, buy your food from the corp grocery, goods from the corp shipping District, and your corp owned utilities + rent. maybe pay for your house via a mortgage from the corp banks. that was (and arguably still is) a serious issue. infrastructure is the other issue. Disney ran out of money early on the project, and took contracts from the military to produce propaganda and training videos for the us military to fund the main park construction. the costs of building as immense an urban experiment as was planned, on swamp ground, would have been an absolute nightmare. on top of maintenance, it doesn't appear that theconstruction would have been standard, and instead been a tiered building of various service and industrial levels before the "main" level would even begin. finding funding would have jeopardised the ability of the company to remain solvent. I do think it MIGHT have been possible if a special economic zone could have been established, which might have enabled the attraction of heavy and tech industries to establish permanent facilities. but with the us economy booming following the war and flourishing until the 70s, gaining government approval for a sez seems very improbable, though maybe at the state level it could have been approached instead. as much as I think it would be a ghost town that urban explorers would love now, my head canon is that it would have flourished into an actual Tomorrow Land. *edited for an unfortunate auto correct haha
Oh definitely, I'm not saying it would be a lock in community or THAT orwellian, but when it comes to shopping, it's most often that groceries and day-to-day commodities (going by research papers I've found online) usually list distances roughly between 5-15km (or travel for 15 min) as the usual distance covered by most consumers. There's outliers, and of course residents would be free to leave/travel further, but that's not going to be the majority of where money is spent on shopping excursions.
Always a visionary; Walt has been quoted as having said: "The best way to predict the future, is to invent it." His works were a major part of my life; young and old. I watched the Mickey Mouse Club in its early days; and keep up with most of the movies. He entertained, he taught, he gave himself to making people happy. I can think of no greater or more noble effort. Walt was one human I would grant immortality to, if it were in my power to do so.
Funny it seemed an... interesting idea, that could have worked... eventually Epcot basically would have fallen victim to dead mall syndrome. only in this case dead city. and I'd be crazy enough to explore it and put it on UA-cam...
All im saying is, you guys are thinking with hindsight. His vision could've changed the way our technology would've advanced and we may not have been on these machines communicating in the same fashion. The only thing he needed was approval from most of the greater minds in engineering. If the city were a success, it would've been the new standard and maybe we'd see more revolutionary roll outs in technology with machines that could last decades and be upgraded instead of the ever changing small technological half steps we get every year where things become more and more replaceable instead of repairable. Anywho, you're thinking as if the plan didn't include having leading developers under his wing. This is wrongful thinking, I'm sure he knew without them there'd be no city as for which he planned on having special places for them to make the future happen. This was a whole different approach at the modern city, you cannot use your thoughts today to weigh in on what could've been.
The Epcot house plans were revised into 2 different locations. Location 1 was the housing and small market for houses in the city called Celebration. The second location became Downtown Disney/Pleasure Island. And as we know they both worked. I know this because I lived in Disney's Celebration and it was awesome.
Rob, thank you, I enjoy your videos on Disney very much. One way around the constant upgrading is only upgrade one apartment building and 2 of the low density housing pods (I believe there are 20 of them) every 10 years. Similar to how Disney refurbishes its resorts. So you wouldn’t be in a constant state of upgrade and it would be more manageable, your only doing 2000 units each year instead of 20,000. Ken
Not a problem. We build tunnels underwater for trains all the time. I don't know why the announcer thought it would be difficult. Just more pricey than boring through dry ground. You would have to dig trenches instead, and seal them as you went. Or you could use drone manned boring equipment that is sealed against water intrusion, and which extrudes temporary shoring material behind it as it goes. Then at some point you pump out the water. Back in the 60s, that probably meant digging trenches and then sealing them with underwater cement. Or use the amazingly radical technique of digging a large tunnel, doing underwater shoring every few feet or so, then inserting sealed modules which are connected together, and the seals broken after installation. Trenches are probably easier. Holland has been pumping water out of below water table land for a long time, with windmills.. so its not that difficult.
This was fantastic. I think you make a lot of valid points about how much has changed with the progression and pace of technology today compared with the 60s; EPCOT was an amazingly ambitious and delightful idea that, ironically, would not have aged very well. Thanks so much for this analysis!!
The thing that fascinates me is that, even after Walt, Disney never *quite* gave up completely on the idea of making planned residential communities on Walt Disney World territory. Celebration, Florida is one, though they spun it off, and the Golden Oak development is another. They're not nearly as radical visions, but you can see ghosts of EPCOT in them. Even Disney Springs (when it was first built as Lake Buena Vista Shopping Village) was originally supposed to be the core of a residential community. Some of the 1970s plans had a PeopleMover network providing local transit.
For sure! I also think that while at times it sounds like a bit of a cop-out, a lot of the innovations and ideas he had for the more behind-the-scenes stuff still ended up happening with how the parks were designed. Things like having a pneumatic trash collection system and a lower level to the Magic Kingdom for utilities.
Rob, this was one of the best discussions I've seen so far on the "would it have been possible" discussion. I love how you've gone in and compared the proposed ideas and explained how - in one way or another - the technology or tools were very possible. I don't think reality has anything to do with ability or possibility - rather economics. And, it wasn't Walt's vision or dream... it was Walt's willingness to go to the edge of bankruptcy to get a project done. I think the company had the talent and resources - I don't think they wanted to spend or risk the money to build it. The WORST part... the part that always angers me is the spin the company did... twisting Walt's ideas and saying... yeah... this is what he wanted... and hiding behind... "well... plans always have iterations..." For example, saying the "World Showcase" was Walt's vision... he said "showcase to the world" but he didn't mean country themepark. (Yes, he did have International shopping buildings - but you know what I mean). Even most recently calling the town of Celebration - bringing to life Walt's dream. Reality is, once Walt died, the company wanted an income stream, not an investment. We can blame the lack of Walt's vision. What went away when Walt died was the motivation. I like Epcot. I was a cast member. I've been a million times. I miss Horizons. I miss the original Imagination. It is a fun themepark, just NOTHING having to do with Walt's vision. Thanks for taking the time to put this video together. (by the way, I used to host a site called Waltopia.com back in the mid-90s - way before Eisner started to share the behind-the-scenes. That site is now run by a great guy named Sebastien and the site is called Walt Disney's Original E.P.C.O.T. at the-original-epcot dot com - I was also SUPER proud to be the first to bring "Walt's Last Film" to the Internet... I was able to hunt down a copy on VHS!) -Paul
I'm from Bothell:) Ya, the Boeing plant is really a sight to see. When you see workers walking in and out of the factory, you really get a sense for how insanely enormous the place really is.
I think it possibly could be created nowadays, there just needs to be a significant piece of land in somewhere like europe or america to build the thing, with proper conditions to sustain a positive lifestyle.
I think EPCOT got realized by the building of Walt Disney World. I think the only thing lacking would be the change of the use of Up and Coming Technology that had to be installed. Disney Company would never shell out that much money to upgrade. I do like that the parks are getting new Theme areas. I would have liked to have seen Walt Disney's EPCOT Project come to pass as a Civil Engineering.
Well if you don't look at the point of the newest tech all the time. I believe a city with that general layout of having a special layer for trucks and most of the traffic by open transportation on different levels of the city is great.
Would EPCOT be successful in its' outset goal? Honestly, I cannot imagine that it would be less than successful, if... A bit too successful... Caveats and limitations aside, if Venice has stood on the same structures for over two thousand years, the same types of constructs could EASILY hold EPCOT. Oh, but there is more. The innovation of technology would of been very successful, and very likely, we all would of seen innovations like the the touch-tone telephone, cellular phone, the modern computer, CDs, DVDs, the internet, and so on, at least a decade before we did. We would have wrist communicators, maybe flying cars, nuclear fusion, dark matter conversion, if not well by now, definitely before 2025. Walt Disney was a fucking genius, and he knew that what would come of his genius would not end well. To be able to handle the level of intellect that he had, at a global level, would require one to let go of many of their beliefs. Anyway... EPCOT would of worked too well. Far too well... We'd likely already have ASI...and if the mortal race were still around by then...
We’re talking about a 50 year old project which concept was to build a smart city that would help people improve their living. The technology to be honest doesn’t really matter, what matters is fulfilling people’s real needs. I work with innovation and something we’re forgetting here is the word “prototype”. That’s what prototypes are for. Prototypes never really fail, they evolve, we validate with real users (in this case citizens) and engineers (the ones who will say what is possible or not) and we adjust. It’s an iterative process. If the technologies proposed by Disney were tested and failed they’d come up with something new, and you test and adjust, test and adjust forever. That’s why I think it would have worked, maybe not the 50 year old plan, but something (or various somethings) new that we’ll only find out once it’s begun. That’s where all innovations come from.
well it was designed in an era when people didnt realize how the walkability of a city can make or break it, so i would have to say it would most likely have been a very shitty design right from the start.
EPCOT wouldn't need to update annually with every slightly modified version of software and tech. Just every new big innovation. iPhone 8 is not all different than iPhone 6.
I think in my personal opinion that Epcot would have worked but with all of the changing technology how would we be able to keep up.something like horizons and the carousel of progress make you wonder and dream what life would be like down the road isn't that where we build the better tomorrow.
Great video Rob. You have done your homework on this subject. I believe that this Grand Design of EPCOT was no more than a Grand Idea of what a modern city could be. Even though I have no doubt that Walt and his team would have pursued this dream, I don't believe they would try to develop it all as one major project. For Walt Disney, it was all about moving in a creative direction and trying new things. What better way to achieve amazing things than to develop a visual plan (EPCOT) that is even more amazing. It sends them in the right direction and helps them stay focused.
gkrieg365 I was thinking of the Venus Project too!! Was just about to comment on that when I saw yours. I never knew Walt Disney wanted to do something like this. Too bad it never happened.
The Venus Project is not a city, it is a political advocacy group. Not a libertarian "Build it and they will come," but another attempt to compel compliance with idealogical dogma.
EPCOT sounds like some Vault-tec experiment
Still though, I wanna see a retro futuristic 60s town!
Afonso Lucas seriously though I wish the architecture would've never went out of style
Makdub I won't like just cause...
Makdub well Bioshock was influenced by Epcot
Vault-Disney
I think Walts idea for Epcot was sort of realized though. Disney World itself has hotels, shopping districts, mass transportation, theme parks with amazing technology. The sponsorships of tech based companies is about the only idea that is sort of DOA, but I think if Disney starts hosting one of those tech expos like up in New York once a year I think it would keep with the idea of Walts dream.
and houses
Maddox Cox there's actually a neighborhood at Disney world
I know, but sadly it is not E.P.C.O.T.
There's actually a neighborhood *next to* Disney world.
Celebration is expressly not on Disney world property and not integrated as part of the things OP pointed out.
Yeah but it would've been cool if it was all arranged the way it was originally imagined. An actual city. As it is now it's more or less the same as other places like Universal. Disney still doesn't have things like a school, parks, huge shopping complex, etc. And the transportation as it is now is definitely not as good as the network of people movers and underground highways like Walt imagined.
In the archival footage you used in this presentation, it is clear that a large and wonderfully detailed model of the place was built that included lighting and moving traffic. This was quite a feat before LED's, fiber optic light routing, or miniaturized electronics. Whatever happened to this beautiful feat of model making? Does it even still exist? Ditto for that enormous wall map of the Florida Project property.
Great question! Unfortunately that amazing model doesn't exist any longer in it's complete form. It used to be a part of the 2nd floor of the Carousel of Progress back when it was in Disneyland. However when the ride moved to Florida the entire model didn't come along with it. That said, a portion of the model did get moved over and can now be seen while on the TTA towards the beginning of the ride. After passing the castle and entering a tunnel for the first time, guests pass the model city.
As for the map, I'm not sure. I know there's a mock-up of it in Hollywood Studios in Walt: One Man's Dream, but I'm not sure where the real map is.
That footage comes from a video called "The Florida Project" and it's freely available on UA-cam, if you're interested.
I just finished watching "The Florida Project" on your recommendation. I liked it. Thanks.
Making such a model wasn't hard at all. Sure, old incandescent lightbulb are inefficient - so what? I have some +50 year transparent legobricks with lights.
it is still a lot of work though.
Imagine seeing the center of a fiber optic system for that? I've seen the model but never knew it was original and only a part!
A man that began with a mouse, and ended with world-building. A true visionary.
Jay Kelly My thoughts exactly. ❤ it sounded like he wanted to make an Elon Musk move. 😊
Or Elon Musk wants to make a Walt Disney move since Walt was around first...
elon musk lol the cult continues.the guy assembles car parts from other manufacturers in to a crappy hodgepodge electric car.
jimbotheassclown Name checks out. Emphasis on the ass.
You all know the cult surrounding Elon Musk is all because he is African-American, right?
All I see when I see video of EPCOT is a great concept for a fourth Bioshock game :D
Wasn’t Rapture in part inspired by the original concepts for EPCOT? As well as Andrew Ryan partially inspired by Disney
epcot is such an interesting idea. It would have been crazy if they actually went through with it - I would love to see how it would have turned out!
Unexpected to see you here!
Idk, doesnt seem very well planned out and extemely limited in growth and development.
But theres a bunch of planned cities out there. Eg, Brasilia, the capital of Brazil, was a planned city from the 60s, made for about 500k people. Unsurprisingly, it went a bit different.
Places like Rotterdam Norway (rebuilt after WW2) have covered walkways that get pulled out when it rains. Nothing fancy but if it's raining or snowing it's just a little nicer to still walk outside. Hard to explain, not full coverage but coverage that can be swiftly added. In the same way some places in Wisconsin and Minnesota connect the buildings with "cat walks"(?) to keep people out of the snow and cold to get to parking. More places in the city should think of these ideas where it is rainy or cold. Many restaurants also started to see the benefits of outdoor pergolas. As for People Movers, sky gondolas, or Trolley that's a waste of money as it "limits" movement to a single course at a high cost when people can walk, Uber, Bike, drive, or even take a bus for much cheaper in a city. But they make for fun Disney rides. It's also what makes Disney cost so much and why modern EPCOT charges about 120 dollars a day for a person to have the honor to also spend money to shop and eat there.
It wouldn't have ended well. The whole idea of EPCOT depended on the concept of benevolent autocratic urban planning. But after the legal reforms of 1965, the sort of controls they needed to have over EPCOT no longer existed. You could not create a city of 20,000 people, even on private property, where democracy didn't apply.
The closest thing today to what Disney intended is probably Singapore.
The other thing is that Walt Disney came up with this idea of a testbed for "modern" city ideas at a time when the ideas for modernization of cities were almost all bad. Almost all the ideas for new cities and urban architecture in that era were terrible.
I'm pretty sure it would have been a corporate dystopia, considering the limitations on how citizens would have been able to vote and such.
I wish they made this EPCOT. It has that great "early 60s futuristic" vibe
I think your reasoning about developing new products constantly is kind of askewed. It wasn't about having every new PRODUCT. It was about every new TECHNOLOGY. It isn't just Sony's newest TV or Samsungs newest Dryer, it was about having the newest types of technology. Innovative things that did need real in home testing. It simply isn't about putting out new products to the residents of Epcot. The promo video shows a lady whose cabinet automatically raises with food in it. It's innovations that truly make differences that Disney wanted at Epcot. Real life-changing ideas. The best example would be desktop 3D printers. Epcot would've been a great place to test their actual usefulness in the home as more than something to tinker with, as they are being studied today
That's a really good point!
A very good point. As was said it would have taken many, many years to complete a project of such a grand scale. So it would have opened in phases. Then the updating could be done in phases as well. Where you do get the latest technology when it is time to update your home and they move on to the next neighborhood needing updating where they then get the latest technology.
This was my very thinking as well...
I also think residents would be willing to pay for access to new technologies. The companies might sell them "at cost" or at a significant discount in return for feedback on them, but I don't think any company would or should be required to install every new technology in every home. Thinking about the kind of person that would want to live in EPCOT, though, they'd be the early adopters of things anyhow. Extra early access to really cool stuff would be right up their alley.
Also, the companies would not have to equip all homes. If residents signed up to certain things, you would have like a subscription based new dishwasher. Say I don't care about best TVs, I could ask for newest tech in bed mattresses etc
I would love to see someone create EPCOT in either SimCity or Cities: Skylines.
THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE RIGHT NOW
Or even Minecraft.
lets put that new gaming pc to good use...
it won't be possible to recreate perfectly tho, since neither of those games allow pedestrian travel from underground roads to the surface or have underground loading points for cargo, so th 2 underground layers woudn't be possible to make
Mods?
Pisses me off disney had to die before he could atleast start this project. Itd of been amazing to see.
Robert Harris he was murdered, his ideas were dangerous/threatening to companies and government, he was murdered and covered up like other brilliant people.
It sounds crazy, yes, I wish/hope I'm wrong but there are too many questions and no answers, I thought for such an amazing person to die and no reason announced or mentioned worries me.
Celebrity deaths are assassinations used to distract the mass public from... Whatever they want to distract us from, business deals, Bills/laws/amendments etc. I hope I'm just paranoid... but expect the worst and be prepared.
Or he just had lung cancer.
Eric Fleming The man was a heavy smoker
Better to be pissed off than pissed on.
Juber777 I did a biography on Walt at school and died of lung cancer from smoking
I think EPCOT was Walt's greatest idea, in both the scope and its potential benefit to mankind. And although it's sad to see it never happened, it gives me hope that we still may one day have an Asimov/Roddenberry/Disney-like future where technology continues to make life better for everyone. If... Skynet... doesn't kill us all first... here's hoping.
personally I think it would have worked as long as Walt was directing it, because Walt was the kind of man who knew when to take risks, how to do it and in what ways. look at snow white, people told him he was crazy and it was a major success. Look at Cinderella, nearly bankrupt the company, was a major success. Look at Disneyland, nobody had faith in that project except for Walt and it's completely changed the way we see theme parks. So as far out there as epcot was if Walt saw it working most likely he was right
If anyone could have pulled it off it would have been Walt Disney.
Mark D I really wanted this city to happen
Just imagine what they could do NOW? They have grown into a goddamn Empire with political power & media control. Especially after the take over of 20th Century Fox and all affiliated licenses and TV Channels.
maybe if the musk wasn't focused on space travel,and.....had a very creative kind hearted,intelligent good friend/sibling...we could have had an epcot a little later. ah well. maybe once we get to mars,we can bring him out of cryo-freeze,find him a partner,and then we can have martian epcot.
Norm T ha ha, so you don't want to wear your purity ring, eh?
cobraglatiator
Elon does have a brother, but he's busy with this Urban Farming thing that involves growing food in shipping containers.
I personally believe this would be some utopian Jetson horror movie, but it actually came to fruition in one place. the rotunda near Englewood Florida is very similar, but all suburban. my grandparents live therr, it's very strange, but complete with the useless canal system too.
Walt Disney playing Cities: Skylines, zoning in his high and low density residential.
This is giving me a rapture type of feeling from bioshock and I love it
First, I appreciate your video and mostly agree with your points. I do have a couple of things that I disagree on, after having studied the EPCOT Project, read books on the subject, etc. I do think that your criticism comparing it to today's world is a bit like saying Google was a short-sighted thing because in 2060 everyone downloads things instantly into their brain. The EPCOT plan is over 50 years old. Also, it is interesting that it was going to be designed for the workers of Disney World to reside there....Disney sort of does this today with their international and college programs now, they live on dorms and take buses. I think the layout and transportation would have been its greatest achievement, something that we're desperately trying to fix now (hi Elon Musk). Even if EPCOT was built and failed after 20 years, the rest of the world would have taken the best parts of it and made it better.
J Philosopher with all the green technology of 2017 and past year it would be working the only problem would be the employment a'd development of the city, the city requires everyone in it to have a job but the city closed in a dome cannot evolve and the population rising would create problems after few generations
There is shit ton of planned cities around world. EPCOT would be absolutely nothing special in that regard.
And transportation? I don't see any problems with any kind of transport in Europe or Asia. Nobody is desperate to fix anything as it work very very well.
There are ready, mass produced solutions. Just for example USA must start to implement them.
J Philosopher I completely agree with your comment, that's how I feel. You can't really say it would have failed just based off of today's comparison. It would have definitely set a platform for these big great technology companies of today. So you can't say that because Google is so great today, that Walts intro to technological advancements would've failed in those days. I think he had great ideas that could've rushed technology (which, yes, could've been a downfall). In fact I think that a lot of these inventors, scientists and technologist most likely would've started under a company like Disney. Meaning Google, Apple, etc. All of their success may have been accredited to Disney and they may have been different today. But I had no idea Walt had THESE types of plans at that time for Epcot. It might have scared people in those days all that futuristic stuff, but by today's standard I look at this like "hmm looks like a mall, looks like a campus, looks like a hospital". He and this idea was definitely ahead of its time. I think the biggest downfall would've been the reaction and attraction to it. If we're talking 60s,70s....hell even in the 90s something like this could cause hesitancy. But today heading towards 2020. Oh yes it would definitely work.
Cities don't have to be huge or old.
Examples from Poland
Smallest city 500people Wiślica
And from 01.01.2018 there is already 7 new cities: Józefów nad Wisłą, Łagów, Otyń, Radoszyce, Sanniki, Tułowice, Wiślica(
J Philosopher the Venus Project is a continuation and parallel research project by Jacques Fresco. It shares many of the design qualities with a more modern spin.
The "home upgrade system" could have been subscription based, where a resident could pay a premium for the latest technology, and they could receive rewards for giving reviews to the companies. People love those sorts of things.
Epcot makes me think of Rapture from Bioshock XD
But seriously, I always felt the idea could work but only for a while. Epcot could've potentially been the end all be all place to experiment with and create new technology but only for about a decade or so. Eventually, new ways would develop and Epcot would become the old way of doing things. And this is of course assuming humanity didn't screw it up somehow as it often does. There's a reason why we say; "This is why we can't have nice things."
Dragonrider1227 J Philosopher my guess is that it was the other way around Epcot is probably the inspiration for Rapture and other stories about a rich man building a city of tomorrow. while also being the reason why these types of stories have something serious wrong with the city probably cause Disney was unable to finish his grand project.
I kinda assumed considering Epcot was originally concieved back in the 60s.
It could be a reason.
If it spawned successors, that would have been a kind of success. Gives a new meaning to the old phrase "Nothing succeeds like succession."
If you read a little about it though, the only humanity that could screw it up was disney himself. He planned to retain all property rights, you would live there under some sort of contract, no government to balloon and become corrupt. If you don't like the place, then don't live there. Everyone was going to have to work, no free housing to gradually degrade into slums. If you wouldn't work, you had to leave. It honestly sounds like a GOOD idea of a city model.
its pretty clear when playing bioshock that it is heavily based on epcot and walt
The concept for the original version of Epcot has been one of my favorite pieces of Disney lore since I first read about it in the Disney Studio Story book by the great Brian Sibley. Given how Walt was willing to move heaven and earth to make his dreams a reality, as well as his knack for finding suitable compromises for ideas too grandiose for what was possible at the time, I'm certain something close to the Epcot of his imagination would have been feasible in an extended lifetime (he might still die during that fifteen-year stretch, but it would get done). It probably would have been easy to get a sizable Disney-loving population into the apartments, and I'd expect a decent amount of them willing to accept copious marketing and product testing into their everyday lives (it's the American way!). Heck, the days for "life upgrades" might have become a cherished biannual event for Epcot City (they'd be nuts to try and do it every year), sort of a cross between a convention and a garage sale. Who's to say it couldn't have worked on some level?
Here's my opinion. EPCOT was to be a demonstration city, (a person would live there for a year, then shift out) and if Disney history has shown anything, it's unwise to bet against Walt Disney. I think it would work
Yes, it could have worked, but in a way that Disney didn't exactly envision. Today, the new shopping norm is to put apartments above or very near retail spaces. With shopping spaces like Santana Row in San Jose and Main Street in Cupertino, this is very similar to what Disney had envisioned. Had Disney built apartments or condos above the retail spaces inside of Epcot, I'm quite sure he could have sold them at premium prices and still had Epcot be a success.
The difficulty is the admission price. With people living on the property, you can't exactly charge admission to those folks. Also, how would they handle entry and exit for those living in Epcot? This is likely the biggest reason the idea was scrapped. Epcot would have had to figure out some way to work as both a tourist destination with admission and manage multifamily dwellings. If you did rent one of those spaces, how does Epcot handle loud parties, inviting guests to your home, dogs barking, outdoor BBQ and all other potential possibilities, etc. Being a landlord and being a theme park owner are entirely two different coins.
I bet if anyone could have pulled it off it would be Walt.
I went on a segway tour through Celebration Florida where I was told that some of Walt Disney's ideas about Epcot were taken and used to make the neighborhoods and houses to form a community Walt imagined.
One BIG problem.
No one wants to move to Orlando.
Well, not anymore.
self induced coma why?
+Sydney Marie Probably worth looking at news coverage of atrocities in the state over the past two years, and/or rising sea levels. :-o
If it's neither of those, it'll be the rain. Contrary to popular belief, Florida is the United States' "British Weather" simulator... ;-)
D Dragon the rain thing is kinda true . I live in the Orlando area and I love it besides the heat it’s awful in the summer
D Dragon Is Orlando really that bad ?
i want to see a disney movie about this city functioning
I think a solution for that last issue (updating all homes constantly) would be solved by updating only a few homes at a time, testing each product/innovation in maybe 1000 homes rather than all 7000.
the building at 0:43 looks like the new Comcast center in Philadelphia
If they focused on functionality instead of futuristic it absolutely would find success.
For example a modern vision of Epcot would eschew cars altogether
Instead having a reliable public transportation system (think autonomous electric buses) and would focus on walkabilty and natural spaces as well as not having a defined downtown and residential area, instead having good quality mid level buildings mixed in with shops and local businesses around sidewalks bike trails parks and gardens
The original Epcot vision is soo 1950s-60s retro future industrialist, individual cars and road systems instead of public transportation and walkable spaces are what’s ruining cities
Good for cars = bad for residents and pedestrians
@@flamingpi2245 Still would likely have sort of warehouses at the edge of the city accessible by the public transportation to allow people to travel out of the city to other places since cars outside the city would still be a necessity*.
*Give me 5 years and I'll turn EPCOT into a shiny light, 20 and I'll have restarted the high technology industry, 30? I'll have people in orbit and planning our journey to Mars.* - Walt Disney in 2225, New Disney world.
Sounds like he was trying to make the " City of the future " like Howard Stark.
Stark in the movies is based on Disney.
I love the concept of EPCOT, if I could I would build it. but the one thing I'd likely leave out is the constant updating. in fact while I've known about and loved the concept for years, I didn't know or realize/register that part of the plan to keep updating the homes to make them showcases for the "homes of tomorrow." so if you cut that part out, it seems far more likely a plan that could work, the next issue is....all the cities are basically here, people aren't going to tear down their city to rebuild it as this plan. and as you said a lot of the city center relies on tourists to see this new marvel of a city, so if every city is similar you'd lose a lot of that traffic and such. Now if you could get this idea to flow in developing nations and focus less on tourists(not making the bullseye a hotel/convention center), it could maybe work.
so the design of epcot is a giant eyeball. illuminating.
bodus lol
Lol this some fallout vault shit right here
Hell yeah
The biggest advantage is the transportation system. (The home technology part, whatever. It's just to get peoples' attention.) But, even Disney World doesn't use its own transportation system (the cool parts). Only a few hotels have monorail access. The poor-people Disney resorts, forget about it, and even the Dolphin and Swan got bypassed.
99% agree. In researching this I also came to the conclusion that it would be highly unlikely that tech companies would be ok with exposing their new technology, and then installing that in all the homes every time. However, this was just the first draft and I believe with Walt's leadership, he would have came to a final working draft. I still think the design of the city would promote community and that alone is still worth building and has not been built in the same idea of EPCOT. There could be upgrades made as new technology was presented. There were also a lot of other challenges to be worked out like no schools, no seniors, and everyone had to work and it would change out the population every once in a while. I still think it is a good idea without the technology piece just to promote community and for safety regarding keeping vehicles separate from pedestrians.
EPCOT is literally one of my favorite places on Earth, even in its current form, but I long for Disney's vision to be fully realized. Jacque Fresco in Venus Florida has his own designs, and he's over 100 yrs of age.
I thought it reminded my of his city designs. Do you know if Jacque ever worked/associated with Walt?
idk, the guy died at 101 years old like last year I think, I've been making contact with the team to get them ideas on how to 1. peacefully do this, and 2. actually do it.
I asked Jacque once about the relationship between the Venus Project and Walt. He said he sent his plans to Disney but never heard back or got an appointment. After that Walt came up with Epcot... the world may never know!
This city still would have failed as Florida Man would be a resident there
1:57 where I live is on that map... not owned by Disney either. Walt never planned for celebration either.. lmao
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebration,_Florida
What's funny is that most cities today tend to be built like this one was planned to be, and from a city design perspective it doesn't end up working out very well. I definitely appreciate the public transportation options that were included though; even if it wasn't as good as it would have needed to be, it always helps functionality
EPCOT as a city of the future would have failed in it's stated goal even if it did end up being just a regular city. It fails for the same reason the city of tomorrow and all the other predictions fail. That is you can't predict the future because you don't know what new technology will be created that completely transform how people live. The internet is a prime example of this as so many things we take for granted wouldn't have even been thought of just 30 years ago, let alone way back when Epcot city was being planned.
Great video. Would have been really neat to see what the finished product of Walts fully realized vision would have looked like. Ultimately I think you are right with the changes in corporate culture and just the pace at which tech is updated in modern times no way they could have kept up.
One person's vision is another person's hell. Besides the technical considerations, Disney would have had to find 20,000 people who were willing to live and work and play the way Disney thought best. Would the 20,000 have all been Disney employees and their families? People like to do their own thing, and while you can allow for that to some degree, what usually happens is something entirely different and unexpected. Not to mention how people might change over time. Even if Epcot had been built, it would have undoubtedly changed in ways that Disney did not envision and could not plan for.
+, this is what I missed during the video, and a critical consideration.
This is an absolutely ridiculous criticism. 1. No they wouldn't all be Disney employees. 2. As opposed to now when people are careful about what urban design they live in? Nobody does that. 3. EPCOT didn't tell anyone who to live their life, it gave them MORE OPTIONS. What the fuck are you even going on about? He could probably find 20 million people willing to sign up today. 4. You think cities are built by the people? City governments make all the decisions, and they are usually idiots. Idiots design cities now. Why do you think Disney's vision would "hell" and even if it were "hell" to 50% of the population, that'd still be over 100 million people who disagree.
This wasn't a critical consideration. It was a bullshit straw man packaged as criticism. Nowhere does it say Disney would tell anyone how to live their lives. All he was doing was arranging where things might go to best facilitate quality of life. He was proposing spending a massive amount of money to make a city vastly more convenient and far more options than any city has today. Imagine if you could park under your house with your car, and then take it for a drive on roads that have 0 pedestrians, 0 big rigs and commercial vehicles, and about 1/10th as many intersections? You'd fly right to work or the store. And if you didn't want to drive, you have a monorail or people mover above ground to ride right downtown. And on the ground level children play safely in large green open spaces. And you work WHEREVER YOU WANT, and you go shop or party or visit WHATEVER YOU WANT.
Yeah, I felt like the video really overlooked a lot of social questions about the people living in this city. He died in the mid-60's. What else was going on/about to happen? The Vietnam War, the Civil Rights movement, second-wave feminism, the Stonewall riots, etc.
they had such cities. they were called company towns, they were really popular during the late 1800's and they were generally exploitative as hell.
EPCOT was designed to be ever changing, so if something didn't work, a new, better way of doing things would've been part of the city. That's kind of the whole point of experimentation. Ultimately, I don't know if Walt's version of EPCOT would've worked like he wanted, but one thing's for sure, he was always told he shouldn't do things like feature animated films & amusement parks & yet against all odds, he succeeded. Disney's EPCOT may have succeeded just as well.
Walt Disney is one person I would bring back to life if I could I would love to see what he could have done if he was still alive
I hope that your closing statement isn't true, that someone will one day build a highly efficient city like EPCOT. At the very least, it would make a great college campus, maybe on a slightly smaller scale.
Thats really intriguing. Yeah Disney sure had alot of vision back then. Your probably right as well, it would probably just become another city of the present because cities are run by people. XD Which we all know how that turns out. It is a interesting idea though.
I'd like to see a cyberpunk-postapocalyptic themed movie based off Epcot.
Walt could never have foreseen the rapid accelerations of new development in the tech and construction industries that would come in the decades after his death. He never could have imagined something like the internet, certainly not in its current form. And even the Epcot we got - a sort of perpetual world's fair and tech showcase - has gotten to be pretty dated due to unforeseen worldwide advances and general apathy from Disney executives (which is only now reversing with money and effort finally being allocated to the Florida parks again). Overall, I'm glad Roy decided not to adhere to Walt's original vision.
This is something I've also wondered about especially considering that Walt was already in his 60's when he came up with this and it was based on older ideas about technology and innovation. Maybe Orlando could have become a second Silicon Valley? I guess we'll never know.
Your videos are so well thought-out and informative! I just found your channel today and each thing I watch is more fascinating than the last. You're doing a stellar job!
Interesting point, but a lot of companies test market in real cities instead. Too bad Epcot didn't take off though, would have been a nice place to visit at least.
I had never heard of this project. Walt sure had big dreams. This would honestly have been awesome to see.
Wow............................... Looks like Midgar
I have my own concept. I call it APRICOT:
Advanced Prototype Residential & Industrial Community Of Tomorrow
It's good for the memory of Walt Disney that it never got built or started. It would have been his Spruce Goose. In the end it's not the tech/construction/design that would have doomed it. It's the fact that (as I learned elsewhere) that residents were to stay and work a year-and bring their families--No home ownership. No say-so in the running of the place. Then return to their old life, work, school, home? THink how hard it is just to take off a few days. The constant turnover in families, workers, neighbors would be anti-community. I love gadgets but a community focused on new gadgets and machines seems heartless.
I've watched this several times. Your content, structure and delivery are just spectacular, Rob.
I hope you read this - because I think everything Walt hoped for concerning EPCOT is still being realized in the development and expansion of Walt Disney World. I think it IS an example to the world of how mankind can create something wonderful that edifies and inspires the world. (BTW, the Pyramids did the same thing!.)
No Mention of Celebration Florida the Disney built City still functioning today? Good content though I enjoyed that.
Celebration was not part of EPCOT concept..
One scenario would be it goes down the same way as Rapture from BioShock did.
Given what Disney pays its employees, no one could afford to both live and work there.
WDW pays above average in Orlando area for similar jobs in hospitality industry...
Can't help but compare this to the film Logan's Run.
What EPCOT ended up being was a permanent Worlds Fair....unfortunately, Worlds Fairs are a relic of the past, killed by the ridiculous ease of information gathering without have to travel to a theme park
Yea, I remember liking state fairs as a kid (in the 60s), I just don't remember why. Maybe I should try going to one, I haven't been in decades.
You dont need to outfit all 7000 homes each year, just do 10% every year.
IMO Walt's EPCOT would've been a smashing success and an example to the world. It would have brought to rise huge innovations in city life that would've influenced other cities, not just technologically but also in terms of governance. Walt's EPCOT had the potential to be a model society designed from the start to adapt enduringly with the times. I truly believe EPCOT would have changed the world and it's truly tragic that Walt's life was cut short before he could bring his most audacious most beautiful dream to fruition.
What do you do about overcrowding and overpopulation caused by the very small ammount of housing and entertainment?
What every great city does... expand. The land mass he purchased there can accommodate generations of expansion and growth.
Well he wasn't trying to obtain every citizen. It was to serve as a blueprint for other leaders to play off of. If the city was full, he didn't have to keep accepting more people into it. If its full, its full, either expand or let the other guys deal with the problem as in, developers would've caught on that it was wildly successful and started doing the work for him like the plan was. Again, it was to set an example, not cultivate a one city utopia.
I think our world today would probably be a lot like what we saw in Back to the Future Part 2 if EPCOT had actually happened.
1:12 I've seen a lot of wealthy philanthropist minded people strive for building their version of the ultimate community and city, but they never really pan out, or at least on in the way they want. When you try to create a city from whole cloth you gloss over details like garbage collection routes, open air shops or malls or store fronts, low income areas prone to crime ... lack of sunlight or lack of shade. Cities are organic creations. They are molded by the area and terrain, not because someone thinks something would be cool.
PUD planned urban development. They are doing EPCOT on small scale in a lot of areas
I hope that weird conspiracy theory that they cryogenically froze him is true.
the show room of homes is a bit of a misnomer. with Walt trying to monetize every aspect of the park, the "latest products" would only be given to residents that payed (and a few show homes), not handed out for free to everyone.
the bigger issue is that you would be living in a city owned by the corporation, pay taxes to the incorporated city corp, buy your food from the corp grocery, goods from the corp shipping District, and your corp owned utilities + rent. maybe pay for your house via a mortgage from the corp banks. that was (and arguably still is) a serious issue.
infrastructure is the other issue. Disney ran out of money early on the project, and took contracts from the military to produce propaganda and training videos for the us military to fund the main park construction. the costs of building as immense an urban experiment as was planned, on swamp ground, would have been an absolute nightmare. on top of maintenance, it doesn't appear that theconstruction would have been standard, and instead been a tiered building of various service and industrial levels before the "main" level would even begin. finding funding would have jeopardised the ability of the company to remain solvent. I do think it MIGHT have been possible if a special economic zone could have been established, which might have enabled the attraction of heavy and tech industries to establish permanent facilities. but with the us economy booming following the war and flourishing until the 70s, gaining government approval for a sez seems very improbable, though maybe at the state level it could have been approached instead.
as much as I think it would be a ghost town that urban explorers would love now, my head canon is that it would have flourished into an actual Tomorrow Land.
*edited for an unfortunate auto correct haha
In order for that company store crap to work you need lock in, and that was already illegal in Walt's heyday.
Oh definitely, I'm not saying it would be a lock in community or THAT orwellian, but when it comes to shopping, it's most often that groceries and day-to-day commodities (going by research papers I've found online) usually list distances roughly between 5-15km (or travel for 15 min) as the usual distance covered by most consumers. There's outliers, and of course residents would be free to leave/travel further, but that's not going to be the majority of where money is spent on shopping excursions.
Always a visionary; Walt has been quoted as having said:
"The best way to predict the future, is to invent it."
His works were a major part of my life; young and old. I watched the Mickey Mouse Club in its early days; and keep up with most of the movies.
He entertained, he taught, he gave himself to making people happy. I can think of no greater or more noble effort.
Walt was one human I would grant immortality to, if it were in my power to do so.
Oh Disney, from pioneering the future to now spamming bad sitcoms.
This is what happens when the founder’s vision is twisted by his heirs and inheritors.
I love that ending summary. Disney parks challenge is constantly keeping their tomorrowlands up to date
Funny it seemed an... interesting idea, that could have worked... eventually Epcot basically would have fallen victim to dead mall syndrome. only in this case dead city. and I'd be crazy enough to explore it and put it on UA-cam...
Amazing video, Rob!!!! My Mom and I talk about it every time we ride the people mover and look at the city model! :)
All im saying is, you guys are thinking with hindsight. His vision could've changed the way our technology would've advanced and we may not have been on these machines communicating in the same fashion. The only thing he needed was approval from most of the greater minds in engineering. If the city were a success, it would've been the new standard and maybe we'd see more revolutionary roll outs in technology with machines that could last decades and be upgraded instead of the ever changing small technological half steps we get every year where things become more and more replaceable instead of repairable. Anywho, you're thinking as if the plan didn't include having leading developers under his wing. This is wrongful thinking, I'm sure he knew without them there'd be no city as for which he planned on having special places for them to make the future happen. This was a whole different approach at the modern city, you cannot use your thoughts today to weigh in on what could've been.
The Epcot house plans were revised into 2 different locations. Location 1 was the housing and small market for houses in the city called Celebration. The second location became Downtown Disney/Pleasure Island. And as we know they both worked. I know this because I lived in Disney's Celebration and it was awesome.
Wouldn't a giant underground road and garage system pose a SERIOUS air quality problem?
JimmyDThing Given electric vehicles, not so much.
It's a ventilation thing. Technology, in other words. And remember, this is not the size of an actual major city.
Back then maybe, however, more people are buying electric cars and we will see Electric Semis soon.
Rob, thank you, I enjoy your videos on Disney very much. One way around the constant upgrading is only upgrade one apartment building and 2 of the low density housing pods (I believe there are 20 of them) every 10 years. Similar to how Disney refurbishes its resorts. So you wouldn’t be in a constant state of upgrade and it would be more manageable, your only doing 2000 units each year instead of 20,000. Ken
Anyone else reminded of Elon Musk when he mentioned the underground traffic tunnels? If anyone can pull it off nowadays, its him.
Not a problem. We build tunnels underwater for trains all the time. I don't know why the announcer thought it would be difficult. Just more pricey than boring through dry ground. You would have to dig trenches instead, and seal them as you went. Or you could use drone manned boring equipment that is sealed against water intrusion, and which extrudes temporary shoring material behind it as it goes. Then at some point you pump out the water.
Back in the 60s, that probably meant digging trenches and then sealing them with underwater cement. Or use the amazingly radical technique of digging a large tunnel, doing underwater shoring every few feet or so, then inserting sealed modules which are connected together, and the seals broken after installation. Trenches are probably easier. Holland has been pumping water out of below water table land for a long time, with windmills.. so its not that difficult.
Timothy Black
Or... just build it somewhere that doesn't have that problem!
This was fantastic. I think you make a lot of valid points about how much has changed with the progression and pace of technology today compared with the 60s; EPCOT was an amazingly ambitious and delightful idea that, ironically, would not have aged very well. Thanks so much for this analysis!!
The thing that fascinates me is that, even after Walt, Disney never *quite* gave up completely on the idea of making planned residential communities on Walt Disney World territory. Celebration, Florida is one, though they spun it off, and the Golden Oak development is another. They're not nearly as radical visions, but you can see ghosts of EPCOT in them.
Even Disney Springs (when it was first built as Lake Buena Vista Shopping Village) was originally supposed to be the core of a residential community. Some of the 1970s plans had a PeopleMover network providing local transit.
For sure! I also think that while at times it sounds like a bit of a cop-out, a lot of the innovations and ideas he had for the more behind-the-scenes stuff still ended up happening with how the parks were designed. Things like having a pneumatic trash collection system and a lower level to the Magic Kingdom for utilities.
@@MidwaytoMainStreet Well like Celebration, I can imagine a hell of a HOA!
Rob, this was one of the best discussions I've seen so far on the "would it have been possible" discussion. I love how you've gone in and compared the proposed ideas and explained how - in one way or another - the technology or tools were very possible.
I don't think reality has anything to do with ability or possibility - rather economics. And, it wasn't Walt's vision or dream... it was Walt's willingness to go to the edge of bankruptcy to get a project done. I think the company had the talent and resources - I don't think they wanted to spend or risk the money to build it.
The WORST part... the part that always angers me is the spin the company did... twisting Walt's ideas and saying... yeah... this is what he wanted... and hiding behind... "well... plans always have iterations..." For example, saying the "World Showcase" was Walt's vision... he said "showcase to the world" but he didn't mean country themepark. (Yes, he did have International shopping buildings - but you know what I mean). Even most recently calling the town of Celebration - bringing to life Walt's dream.
Reality is, once Walt died, the company wanted an income stream, not an investment. We can blame the lack of Walt's vision. What went away when Walt died was the motivation.
I like Epcot. I was a cast member. I've been a million times. I miss Horizons. I miss the original Imagination. It is a fun themepark, just NOTHING having to do with Walt's vision.
Thanks for taking the time to put this video together. (by the way, I used to host a site called Waltopia.com back in the mid-90s - way before Eisner started to share the behind-the-scenes. That site is now run by a great guy named Sebastien and the site is called Walt Disney's Original E.P.C.O.T. at the-original-epcot dot com - I was also SUPER proud to be the first to bring "Walt's Last Film" to the Internet... I was able to hunt down a copy on VHS!)
-Paul
I live right next to Boeing in Everett!
Best factory tour anywhere in the world is Boeing Assembly Plant - Everett...hands down!
I'm from Bothell:) Ya, the Boeing plant is really a sight to see. When you see workers walking in and out of the factory, you really get a sense for how insanely enormous the place really is.
Nice shots of the 1964 New York World's Fair at 9:20
The Boeing Factory is not the largest building in the world by volume anymore, Tesla's Gigafactory is bigger.
MrCumberlander1 Not volyme, footprint. Also the whole factory isn't built yet.
I think it possibly could be created nowadays, there just needs to be a significant piece of land in somewhere like europe or america to build the thing, with proper conditions to sustain a positive lifestyle.
Bioshock 4 anyone
I think EPCOT got realized by the building of Walt Disney World. I think the only thing lacking would be the change of the use of Up and Coming Technology that had to be installed. Disney Company would never shell out that much money to upgrade. I do like that the parks are getting new Theme areas. I would have liked to have seen Walt Disney's EPCOT Project come to pass as a Civil Engineering.
i think walts dream is being realized by arabs in dubai
From what I know about Walt, he definitely didn’t envision Arabs in his dream
Well if you don't look at the point of the newest tech all the time. I believe a city with that general layout of having a special layer for trucks and most of the traffic by open transportation on different levels of the city is great.
Would EPCOT be successful in its' outset goal?
Honestly, I cannot imagine that it would be less than successful, if...
A bit too successful...
Caveats and limitations aside, if Venice has stood on the same structures for over two thousand years, the same types of constructs could EASILY hold EPCOT.
Oh, but there is more. The innovation of technology would of been very successful, and very likely, we all would of seen innovations like the the touch-tone telephone, cellular phone, the modern computer, CDs, DVDs, the internet, and so on, at least a decade before we did. We would have wrist communicators, maybe flying cars, nuclear fusion, dark matter conversion, if not well by now, definitely before 2025.
Walt Disney was a fucking genius, and he knew that what would come of his genius would not end well. To be able to handle the level of intellect that he had, at a global level, would require one to let go of many of their beliefs.
Anyway...
EPCOT would of worked too well. Far too well...
We'd likely already have ASI...and if the mortal race were still around by then...
We’re talking about a 50 year old project which concept was to build a smart city that would help people improve their living. The technology to be honest doesn’t really matter, what matters is fulfilling people’s real needs. I work with innovation and something we’re forgetting here is the word “prototype”. That’s what prototypes are for. Prototypes never really fail, they evolve, we validate with real users (in this case citizens) and engineers (the ones who will say what is possible or not) and we adjust. It’s an iterative process. If the technologies proposed by Disney were tested and failed they’d come up with something new, and you test and adjust, test and adjust forever. That’s why I think it would have worked, maybe not the 50 year old plan, but something (or various somethings) new that we’ll only find out once it’s begun.
That’s where all innovations come from.
well it was designed in an era when people didnt realize how the walkability of a city can make or break it, so i would have to say it would most likely have been a very shitty design right from the start.
EPCOT wouldn't need to update annually with every slightly modified version of software and tech. Just every new big innovation. iPhone 8 is not all different than iPhone 6.
I think in my personal opinion that Epcot would have worked but with all of the changing technology how would we be able to keep up.something like horizons and the carousel of progress make you wonder and dream what life would be like down the road isn't that where we build the better tomorrow.
Awesome video, I didn't even know that there was this much footage from the planning of EPCOT
Elon Musk going to build this lol watch.
Wouldn't that be something
GRAND HIT
He'll build it on Mars.
people are saying they don't like Iron Man 2. I'm saying I like it due of making a new element
On Mars....
Epcot is literally Midgar from FF7!!!
and if Walt can dream it he can do it great videos Rob
Great video Rob. You have done your homework on this subject.
I believe that this Grand Design of EPCOT was no more than a Grand Idea of what a modern city could be.
Even though I have no doubt that Walt and his team would have pursued this dream, I don't believe they would try to develop it all as one major project.
For Walt Disney, it was all about moving in a creative direction and trying new things. What better way to achieve amazing things than to develop a visual plan (EPCOT) that is even more amazing. It sends them in the right direction and helps them stay focused.
It looks similar to the Venus Project, and Atlantis. It may be the most efficient design of a city.
gkrieg365 I was thinking of the Venus Project too!! Was just about to comment on that when I saw yours. I never knew Walt Disney wanted to do something like this. Too bad it never happened.
The Venus Project is not a city, it is a political advocacy group. Not a libertarian "Build it and they will come," but another attempt to compel compliance with idealogical dogma.
This will work when Walt is revived in the future, he knew it wouldn’t work then but it will be the blueprint for the future