I totally forgot to ask the question… 🙋♂️: I really thought that Dragonbane would replace Shadowdark for our weekly Saturday game based on what I thought my players want from the game experience. After playing Dragonbane, I’m really happy with the game system, but I like Shadowdark being simple the way it is - Have you ever done that? Have you ever thought you would replace a game system with a different one and then you realized what you liked about the original one?
After coming from 5E, no I started replacing mechanic after mechanic until I pretty much just deleted Dungeons all together! Took bits and pieces of systems I liked and frankensensed them together. Now I call it my own system and trying to forge words to describe it's simplicity while also being "rules light".
@@FamilyTableTop My house has a 5e game I play in and my Goblin game. That did happen but that's when TORG dropped in the 90s and ate Everything but CoC
yup! This will happen often if you continue exploring systems. Don't be afraid to steal sub-systems you like and work them into your main game with homebrew rules, or as magic item effects/character levelup boons/special bosses
@@redd_Jack340 Stephanie plays games has her whole channel about stealing mechanics. I mean I'm stealing the spell generator and Relics from Knave, and stuff I like from Deep Magic and Ebon Tide the or my SD Goblin Game
It bewilders me that so many people still play Hasbro’s D&D when we have this feast of options to choose from in the indie TTRPG space. The presentation, flavor, design elegance, options are all so much better outside the corporate bubble.
I enjoy DnD, shadwodark, heart, wildsea, mothership, and blades in the dark. They are all different systems. DnD is a mini war game through and through. Shadowdark is a deadly ttrpg that forces players to interact with the world, heart is a game of horror and the journey through madness, mothership is great, wildsea is adventures on the high seas, blades in the dark is oceans eleven and the hardest game to run right.
@@FamilyTableTop "designed by corporate committee" is the best way to describe 5e. Like it's trying to be all things to all people, not even in a "generic RPG" way but in a "mostly incoherent mechanics" way.
Great video and very timely! I'm also in the process of comparing Shadowdark and Dragonbane for one of my upcoming campaigns. Enjoyed hearing your thoughts!
The nice thing about shadowdark is it gives you the ability to mash it with other systems, so if you wanted a pet system from a different game, or the darkness elements from shadowdark, you could potentially combine the two systems to get a Frankenstein monster that acts the way you want. It's a bit more experimental, but with a little work, could come out with something workable.
The Wildsea's definitely a friendlier wilderness if that's what you're looking for. If it works, great, and it's always worth trying something new with a group who wants to do it, even if it doesn't ultimately work out. You'll learn the system and some things about what your group does and doesn't like. Don't worry too much about getting the perfect system that handles everything they want to do. You're going to have to do your own work around the edges of wherever you ultimately settle in if you want to make it the best it can be for them.
While I don't think ShadowDark is geared toward collecting pets, I also don't think there's anything that really prevents it. But this reminds me of playing D&D many years ago (BECMI). There was an adventure where you are able to befriend 2 trained wolves, which I did. They became my companions for a time but as our characters grew stronger, the wolves became less helpful and weren't strong enough to join us in battle. I had grown attached to them and made the decision to leave them "at home" because after gaining 2 or three levels, we were facing things that would have killed them pretty easily. So for me, having pets was cool, but unless they can level up with you, they soon become more of a hindrance than anything. I laughed at "DragonBane is one of the *best* starter boxes... ok, well, I've opened *two* starter boxes..."But yeah, it's great. I actually just got it myself about 5 days ago. I held off for a long time because I have more games than I can play, but I love the art, the game looks cool, and I think when a company puts out quality stuff like that, they should get some support. I'm also reading Vaesen at the moment, which is also from Free League. I got that one free, but I am buying too many games... I am eyeing Fallen Empires which will launch on Kickstarter in 2 days, and I backed D6 2E, which I should receive in February. I need to back off on game buying for a while.
@@jcraigwilliams70 I have a couple questions - What do you think of Vaesen? Could you tell me a little bit more about the Kickstarter game you mentioned? Why do you move into so many new systems so quickly (I tend to do it also and I’m not really sure why I do…)? - I don’t think it’s based out of dissatisfaction or discontentment… but I could be mistaken. I have a genuine interest in learning about these game systems (both TTRPGs and TTwargames), but it doesn’t feel the same as a FOMO compulsion… Any thoughts about yourself - maybe my reasons are similar to yours…
@@FamilyTableTop I played Vaesen a few times good game but had some issues. This video does a great job reviewing the game for me. ua-cam.com/video/hwD4gdXyEG4/v-deo.html
In regards to your concerns about taking the rolling out of Dragonbane...I'm firmly in the camp of having them roll only when it's dramatically appropriate. Not everything needs to be rolled. Does that take an opportunity for a Dragon or Demon on the roll (and thus a chance for a level-up)? Maybe, but my argument is you only improve your skills when challenged to begin. if I have them skip rolling it's because I feel the character is competent enough to success in a no-stress situation. If there's stress, then yeah, have 'em roll.
@@FamilyTableTop This is probably the best answer. It's great fun to try different game systems and to read them. Ultimately the perfect game is the game you homebrew yourself from different systems and by tweaking things so they work well for your table. I think it's extremely unlikely that someone has made the perfect game system for your table and even if they did, give it a few months and your players will be excited about something different to what they're excited about now. The key to great ttrpgs is what you're already doing which is responding to what your players want to do and letting them drive the narrative and the game style to a large degree.
Interested in hearing wildsea review, it's a biiiiig departure from every game you've talked about so far. Shadowdark has too many rules for me to be assed to run properly, so I've been playing EZD6, and the way you describe what you like about it makes me think you might lean towards narrative/rules light systems
@@redd_Jack340 I think I do enjoy the rules lite systems for our regular games - it’s very relaxing and easy to run. What do you like about the EZD6 system?
I am running wildsea for my Tuesday game. I love the system, combat is such a small part of the game. It is crazy how enemies don't have hp or anything. It is up to the DM. A big tree attacks you ship like a venus fly trap after so much damage, it releases the ship but exhales spores that make you crazy. Now after so much success you are free. Or the pirates board and attack your ship, after so much success they leave but now shot at you from their ship. I also love how damage to players mean they pick skills and items that are damaged so they have less options as they get through the adventure. I am thinking of trying it with my Friday group.
@@FamilyTableTop Yeah, if that's how you feel about rules, I'd definitely recommend you give it a look. I'd be willing to have you at one of my online tables, even. Things I like is a long list but I'll summarize! Simple dice pool system, gives GM plenty wiggle room on fringe cases. Untrained? Roll 1 die. Trained? Roll 2, take the higher. Trained AND situational advantage/magic involved? Take 3. Disadvantaged somehow? lose a die on that roll. Only rolling 1 die and disadvantaged? Roll 2 but take the lower, good luck! Crits happen often and matter, on 6s, you roll until you don't get another 6. In combat, each crit does another strike and I've had a Warrior player wipe an entire boss room full of minions in one turn, once. We still talk about it a year later. Monster crits explode like this too :3 Karma: whenever you fail a roll you gain a karma, that you can use to increase a roll by 1 (including making 5s into 6s) Armor Saves and low health: Most characters have 3hp. But every time they're hit they roll armor to avoid the damage. Tanky classes have better armor and they're better at surviving that way, but still fragile. Magic is risky: Enemies have a # to beat to be impacted by your spell, and players know it before they roll. They get to decide how many dice to roll to meet or beat that number, but any 1s fizzle (at my table it backfires) the spell. No karma can be used for magic either, so the rolls are always high stakes
Just a minor correction: the Dragonbane boxed set is NOT a starter kit. It contains the complete rules for the game. The major difference between the core rulebook and the softcover rulebook in the boxed set is that the core rulebook has a published adventure included. Having said that, the boxed set is a tremendous value for 50 USD: rules (w errata incorporated), dice, maps, cutouts w plastic bases, battle maps, an entire campaign, solo adventuring, pregens, and character sheets. Compare that with the core rulebook at 43 USD, and it's no contest.
You are the game designer at the table. Systems are only as holy as you deem them to be. Take pieces from ANYTHING to make sure you hit ALL the notes both you want to run as a GM, and the players want to experience
I loved hearing your point of view about both systems. I do not necessarily like the same things as you about DB (I do not like skill-based systems, exactly for the reason you mentioned: if you don't give players opportunities to roll, they will feel like they are not getting better), but that box set is incredibly nice, AFAIK the best gift to a group just starting out ttrpgs. It would be awesome if I could send you a DCC softcover book, you would have so much highlighter fun with it 😂 I wanna say sorry about my reaction to your highlighting, it's just how I was raised in the 70's - books were sacred, especially beautiful books like DB. For a DCC softcover or a Basic Fantasy softcover from Amazon, I wouldn't even lift an eyebrow. I'm curious about Wildsea, as I haven't heard much about it yet. Good luck on your exploration!
I agree on your point about skill-based systems and I too dislike "rollplay" and prefer more role playing and creative play from players. For me I also dislike skill-based systems, because they disallow all players from trying to do something AND shoehorn others into being the go to "talk to NPC's guy", "intimidation guy" etc. On top of that skill-based systems often force players into choosing between combat skills and non-combat skills, this further tends to make players make very similar characters, which gets boring really fast.
I'm really enjoying Dragonbane, for a lot of the reasons you mention. I've been playing with my kid, and it really has been the most fun I've had at the table in a long while. I will say though, I think the combat is so much fun that we really do play it almost more as a miniature wargame with heavy roleplaying elements than a straight ttrpg. In my solo game I definitely have a lot more negotiation and deeper roleplay. I don't really see this as a weakness of Dragonbane, per se, but I do think it can lead to some missed opportunities for the kid to develop good roleplay habits. Dragonbane will definitely be the system I use for one shots/short campaigns, but I'm moving over to Forbidden Lands as my home base for the hexcrawling, exploration-based play that keeps me invested in a long term campaign.
@@FamilyTableTop You're paying attention to game + players. That's something I look for in a DM and what I try to do in my own games. I don't think the sheer amount of time spent as a DM is as relevant as the willingness to think about how the players and the game are flowing together. Sure, experience matters, especially when we're talking about a particular rule set. But I think the willingness to have a give-and-take, facilitate the player experience (which seems like a kind of middle path between giving them space and not being so permissive that all the dramatic tension goes away), and thinking carefully about how it's going are optimal.
I'm loving ShadowDark RPG so much better than D&D 5e it will probably be a while before I try something else. Having said that I did back the D6 Second Edition on Kickstarter so I will probably be playing some next year.
Im looking into "Break!!" which also has great speed and useful tables for travel and negotiating encounters. It also might be a better fit for those who want pets. It won awards for layout and best family game. The art and setting really seem to synthesize all the fantasy things that my family likes. Less Conan more Zelda.
@@FamilyTableTop Truthfully we've only played 2 sessions last year before my friend had to quit DMing. Since then we talk about it a lot but haven't scheduled. It is my dream and the only people I really want to play with. To answer your other question, I have borrowed mechanics from another system. I borrowed "i am a adjective noun who verbs" character creation, and Cyphers from Numenera, and used them in The Black Hack. I've also considered borrowing The Glow, and navigating and salvaging mechanics all from "Sundered Skies" (a Savage World setting) and running the setting in a different system because I don't know any good Savage Worlds GMs and it's not me either.
I think it depends upon if you want to mechanize getting pets. My kids just want a pet. But if yours want to turn everything into a pet, you might want to lean heavier into that with mechanics, and it would make sense to try a different game. If they tried to make every monster their pet, I just wouldn't allow it. Most animals in the real world aren't suitable as a pet, the same is true of fantastical animals. At some point giving your players the same "I win" button gets boring.
@@bobbycrosby9765 that’s a really good point. Maybe there’s some way to manage the balance between making pets overly powerful and potentially dull (like a Pokémon game) and keeping the fantastic creature system interesting with fantastic animal NPCs
I switched from D&D5e to Dragonbane in march. We're almost done with the starter box adventures and its been a blast.. with only 2 players and a DM we've tried to talk ourself out of battles because. they're deadly, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. But the fact that hitpoints doesnt go up unless you take the heroic feat is a nice touch. only tried Shadowdark once. while it was fun I would have to play it more to get a proper feel for it.
I always wonder if people will try new things in my group, but we usually stick to tried and true. However I am also exploring some new systems to see if I can run some play by post games with folks. See if it’s fun in the medium.
Wildsea is super fun! It's quite differently from anything you've looked into so far. It's very narrative and collaborative, you'll have moments where your table turns into a little writer's room for a bit. You gotta get ready for a different style of GMing that's much more improv focused. That said, I think it's totally okay to have pets in shadowdark! It's just a matter of how the world reacts to them. Will a village be comfortable with a massive spider marching through there? I think another thing is, what do they genuinely help with? Do they provide a bonus? Or are they a new entity in every combat? Does the spider trust each member of the party equally? Or will someone wake up being rolled up in webs one night? You mentioned that magic doesn't work how they'd like it to. Do you have any more details on that? What's making you think Wildsea is going to have a good magic system for your players.
DB is s very lethal system. With those numbers against them, it should not have been a walk in the dungeon. Tidal Wave is also a rank 2 spell, requiring Frost and the character can’t begin with that spell, normally.
The wonderful thing about TTRPGs is there are very few hard and fast rules you must obey. I totally steal mechanics from other systems for my game. Sometimes you may have to work to insure things are balanced, but all in all you should tailor your game to fit you and your players . Games are all about having fun, after all!
@@FamilyTableTop I run a bastardized version of BECMI in a homebrew campaign world. I swiped a lot from Shadowdark including roll to cast for spells, the spell mishap table (modified to my taste), the rules for darkness and torches being real time. I also allow players to trade initiative and give each player 6 flex dice at the beginning of each session which they can use to boost saves, attack, damage or skill checks. They are also allowed to trade these. Those are a few off the top of my head.
I liked this video and understand your points. Just one thing, the Dragonbane box is not a Starter one, it is a core box. 😅 Stay away from Forbidden Lands, or else you will have another amazing system and setting in your backlog. 😅
@@FamilyTableTop I said you shouldn't do it. 😅 Year Zero Engine Unique setting Cool hexcrawl mechanics A lot of tables to assist the GM (low prep) And the list goes on...
I'm glad you're starting to get the feeling of what you like and don't like about verious systems. But It's also good that you know what are considered features and flaws of each system as well as they're all different to each other. Trying out Wildsea with your players will be good to also give you a feeling if that is exactly what you want as from what I can tell, you can still translate your story and setting into that system very well since you were able to do it with Dragonbane. I haven't felt like I have that *exact* situation with the switching systems, but I have experienced at least realizing why I like another system in rekindling why I enjoyed it. DCC is my go to system as you already know, but having experienced two dms running 5e in such fun ways, I think I rekindled my love for DnD 5e again where I'm okay with running a oneshot for my friends in a different setting. Though I think Dragonbane may also work well in the setting as well because it feels like it leans into the S&S in it's system though I would have to figure out how the hell to recreate the Void Warlock for that system as it's a classless system and the void warlock is very specific in it's set up (I watched the video you made on how to "make classes" in a classless system but I think the Void Warlock would be very complicated still xD;; Because it's more of a "corrupting" class as it slowly corrupts you the more you use it and makes it a moral delema at some point if you're a good charater trying to do good with it only to making things worse. It's a fun storytelling class in my playtesting of it in one of the games I play in 5e because slowly you can chip away at your own personality to make Neon Shadows.) I love Fate, DCC is one I lean into more, but 5e was rekindled for me and I'm happy with that. It means I have more options. I will say, you got me wanting to look into Dragonbane and I'll probably also look into Shadowdark in the future. Shadow of the Demon Lord and Barbarians of Lumeria are still two I want to first experience before I go and jumping into other systems. (Fate Accelerated was one of the other ones that was already in the same level of SotDL and BoL when I was first looking into details). But Dragonbane may come first because I really love the artstyle of the stuff being an artist myself. (I do like Shadowdark's artstyle but DCC have a similar aethetic in a lot of cases so I want to look at Dragonbane's art a bit as well to mix it up a bit lol) On a side note: 😂You playing your games on Saturdays explains why you haven't shown up to my streams. I'm not upset, I was just wondering if that was the case. And it sounds like you play pretty late into the night as well so of course you would be missing as I think you're still playing yours around 10pm EST, or finishing up and collapsing around that time too (Mine is also a shorter game due to players needs, so I'm ending around 12am EST as well). Eventually there will come a time I'll run a game for you, just our times don't align at the moment lol. which is fair.
In general I don't like "you get XP/Benefits by failing or succeeding dice rolls" mechanics in game, mostly for the same reasons you mention. I prefer players to role play and describe their actions (something I rarely see in games like 5e). And I especially like it when their descriptions *matter*. For example in my campaign players describe how they look for traps. Sometimes they just look with their eyes, bringing the torch closer. Othertimes they tap with a 10' pole. These methods will reveal different info - maybe it sounds hollow when tapped on - maybe the act of tapping trips a very thin wire that you just can't see from 10 feet away and now there's a cloud of gas! Using role-play and player description means the character's actions are entirely up to the player - they have control! The play culture of rolling a d20 for every single thing you do is very common these days, but it just doesn't speak to me. It feels like the dice are the ones *really* playing my character and that I need to be an improvisation actor responding to the suggestions the dice are giving me. I think mechanics that reward failing a roll or rolling a 1 or whatever are mainly a "patch" to soften the disappointment a that the dice often produce for players in this style of game.
On the topic of "Pets", there is a commonly used mechanic in a lot of OSR games often called "retainers" or "henchmen" or things like that. In general it's meant for people sidekicks instead of animals, but it's really easy to use for animals. I just perused ShadowDark and found that no rules for retainers are included in the base game. Here's how I typically see them used in other OSR games. You have a max number of retainers (either at once or for the characters entire life) - this number can go up or down based on charisma. No retainer can be equal to your level (or hit dice), so if you are level 3 and the giant spider is 4 hit dice, then it might be friendly to you, but it's not going to be your pet - it can sense that really it's more powerful than you. The retainers have a loyalty score (start in the middle, like 7 on 2d6 or maybe 11 on a d20 - depending on your system). Check their loyalty anytime they are being asked to do something dangerous or risky. They might flee from combat or not want to open the suspicious treasure chest or touch the mummy, etc. The loyalty can go up and down based on how the player treats them. They get a magic item for keeps? +1 loyalty. They saw one of your other retainers die right before their eyes? -1 loyalty (and you should probably roll a loyalty check to see if they quit right then and there).
Having a good engine is good, but players will want what they want ... this can fall into the category of where a DM says NO, or No But. NO your character can not jump this ravine, they will die. NO you can't convince the dragon to part with it's treasure BUT you convince it to give you a loan due in 50 years ... Don't be just a Yes or No DM, But or And helps alot with detail and expanded options.
Bro the darkness is such a massive part of the game. Managing torches and fighting against the dark is such a big part of the game. Things are supposed to be dangerous. Obviously not everything takes place in a dark location but still.
Dragonbane is now my number one light RPG. My group likes it very much. Shadowdark is clever, but it's yet again a variation of D&D, which I'm tired of. When I get nostalgic, I play a solo game of D&D BX, which is for me, the original light system with all its qualities and warts.
You should consider playing the campaign that came with the Box Set. It presents a really great mix of combat and role playing opportunity and generally good stories. Maybe down the road you can do it 1 every 4 sessions. Each part of the campaign is a mini adventure of its own. I was in the same position choosing between SD & DB, but for my group they enjoy a bit more combat crunch then SD and the diversity of professions and having more control on their development. But every group is different! Glad you tried it.
Instead of Dragonbane, have you looked into playing EZ D6 as a game that is quick to pick up, easy to run, and fun to play between full group sessions?
@@FamilyTableTop The Dude abides. I use Shadowdark with my main play group, but when on boarding kids or new players into the TTRPG world, EZ D6 is my go to. I still run the same modules as I would with OSE or SD, but with the EZ D6 rule set. Converting monster stats is super easy (use the number of HD as strikes, and divide the AC by 3 for the "to hit" number), and it can get gonzo fun if the dice start rolling out 6s! Highly recommended.
Shadow Dark is really a D&D derivitive. Dragonbane comes from BRP. The odd thing is, Dragonbane is skills based. The leveling system is not very unique. Cuthulu, Runequest, King Arthur Pendragon, Mythras etc all the used the same system. In OSR characters get super powerful , yet in Dragonbane you don't. In my opinion Shadow Dark. Is more combat orientated. If your used to OSR it's easy, so you're chilled. If you're used to BRP, then it's chilled. If you see what I mean. I don't want to play a game where you start off with 6 hit points and at level 10 end up with 58 hit points, then OSR is for you. In Dragonbane you might start off with 11 hit points and end up with 15. For me BRP is a better simulator.
@@FamilyTableTop Basic Role-Playing is Chaosium's d100 roll under, classless, skill based, game engine used in games such as Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon and a bunch of old Elric ttrpg which were the basis for old Drakkar och Demoner, which at some point changed the d100 roll under for d20 roll under, then a couple of years ago Free League picked up the IP, added some Year Zero Engine stuff and called it Dragonbane for its international release, so it shares more DNA with Call of Cthulhu than with Dungeons and Dragons.
Both great games but the sheer ease of running all my OSR stuff in SD puts it over the top, for a typical DnD setting. DB is superior for games that deviate more from standard DnD tropes - it suits rare monsters and more in depth roleplay I think.
Yet Dragonbane isn't OSR and it doesn't derive from D&D. Ir comes from BRP and is mechanically similar to King Arthur Pendragon. It swaps percentile dice for a D20 but it's really closer to Runequest mechanically. It does feel however rather D&Desque in game play, doesn't it.
Yep, it sounds like you prefer the same type of gaming as I do. Old school gaming, which Shadowdark represents very well. Any of the more modern designed systems, like Dragonbane, MCDM, Daggerheart, Pathfinder, etc... have a lot of the same problems as D&D5e. That modern design bloat just adds crunch which takes time, and creates overpowered characters that encourage the players to not think things through and instead just blow everything up. This is exactly why rules lite systems, especially those that are based loosely on classic D&D systems, just work the best and the fastest, and as you suggest.. more chill. I've played OD&D, B/X, AD&D, BECMI, etc.. and the best version of that old school system that I've discovered so far are: Shadowdark and Dolmenwood. Of those two, I say that Dolmenwood is the winner because it has almost all of the simplicity that Shadowdark offers, while also having a thoroughly rich setting and a system of rules that enhance and back up that setting. Now for some, that may mean that they prefer Shadowdark, and though I prefer Dolmenwood myself, that would be an understandable position. I've had players that enjoyed Shadowdark, but felt it was just a tad too simplistic from a character customization/options point of view. That is where Dolmenwood wins imho. It adds JUST enough player options without it feeling like the bloat of modern systems, and for my players, this was the perfect balance.
Dolmenwood is pretty amazing. For people who like a generic setting, I get why they would go with Old School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy. For people who want more character customization than even Dolmenwood, I get why they would pick Hyperboria 3. I think Dolmenwood might be closer to my sweet spot though.
I will always encourage trying new systems and expanding your experience. But as far as what your players want? in dragonbane, they had fun abilities and used them. In shadowdark, they have freedom, it is an "open game" that you as the DM can allow/homebrew anything. They want to spend their freedom hunting pets, roll with it and do whatever you/they want. You have said a few times now that you feel you are playing it wrong, you need to let that go. In most RPGs, especially open "rulings over rules" rpgs there is no right or wrong way to play. There is only the way you choose to play at your table with your players. My SD game runs like a heroic, high fantasy with lots of combat, and yes. Pets. My players lean in that direction, but like you I enjoy the ease of prep and play for the DM, and the ability to homebrew/add systems with out breaking the game, that shadowdark provides.
I think I mentioned in another video, that I also thought of getting into Dragonbane for my solo-RPG environment. As soon as I found out, that the combat system is a bit gamey, I immediately abandoned the idea. I want to rollplay rather than to play a boardgame. That being said however, making checks is essential for me as it provides outcomes to situations. The more I roll on certain activities, the better for getting ideas.
After a few of your live sessions and questions asked, I think you're equating mechanical systems to campaign settings too fully. You mention your players want to befriend animals and keep them as pets, and how you think Wildsea is the system for that as a result, but after testing Dragonbane, you were surprised that while they liked it, they preferred Shadowdark, despite the fact that they are trying to play a game you think Shadowdark doesn't support. More than anything, this tells me your players are telling you exactly what they prefer (Shadowdark) and you are misinterpreting it on this quest for the perfect game system (which doesn't exist, there's always something wrong with them). Which suggests to me, that you may not truly be confident in your abilities as a GM to make rulings on the fly, or, that you don't understand your players saying they prefer a simple system that gets out of the way of gameplay. You even mentioned during one of the livestreams that you had one player who preferred having more definition to the system to limit their choices (analysis/option paralysis) and immediately jumped to a chunkier system would benefit them. I haven't been a new GM for awhile, but that seems inherently backwards to me. At their core, as a GM, the most important of any game system is the resolution mechanic and how complicated that is. Shadowdark is super simple and that seems to be what you and your players enjoy because it moves things along. Shadowdark: Determine (dis)advantage. Roll 1d20 against a DC, modify with any modifier. Is result higher? Yes = good. No = bad. Done. Dragonbane: Determine skill that would be applicable. Determine (dis)advantage. Roll 1d20 against a DC, modify with any & all modifiers. Track 1s/20s. Is result under? Yes = good. No = bad. Done. 5e: Determine if skill, attack, etc. Determine (dis)advantage. Roll 1d20 against a DC, modify with any & all modifiers. Add proficiency (if applicable). Unless this is a contest, then roll against target's roll. Is result higher? Yes = good. No = bad. Was it a 1 or 20? Determine automatic success/failure accordingly (if applicable). Done. Because Shadowdark is the leanest of the engines you are using currently, it makes affording players opportunities to do any and everything more freely and the game gets out of the way of saying yes or no for you. Because all you have to do when something comes up that wasn't considered in the book is debate whether or not a roll is needed. At that point, the system is simple. 1d20 + modifier (advantage or no). The book doesn't contemplate pets, but that doesn't mean there isn't a system for befriending pets. One of the strongest pieces of GM advice in Shadowdark is summarized as "rulings, not rules." That means, "if I didn't consider a mechanic that you think should be there, such as a system for pets, you decide how it works and use it based on the framework I gave you - 1d20 + modifier (dis/advantage) against DC." All you have to do as a GM is determine what makes sense in the scenario. While the implied setting for Shadowdark is a dark, low fantasy setting. You can play anything with it. There are people on the discord server currently playing Pokemon and Dolmenwood with Shadowdark. There are people converting old 5e or OD&D adventure modules. The system is designed to allow that. This is why I think you might lack some confidence as a GM, because your players are saying, "WE LIKE SHADOWDARK" and yet, you think it's the wrong system because it doesn't have rules for all the scenarios you could come across. But that's okay. No system will. The question is does the framework give you enough to make the rulings when the rules don't have a solution for you. And here, the system is yes. Just have faith in it and your ability to make a ruling in that moment that works within the framework.
I appreciate your push back about this - you’re helping me to consider that I might be misinterpreting some information my players are giving me… but there is still a possibility that I am correctly assessing my players likes and dislikes. At the moment, I dont really see a problem with mixing it up in new systems. We might eventually wind up right back in Shadowdark - do you think there is harm in sampling different systems?
@@FamilyTableTop You very well could be assessing correctly. My spidey-senses tingle when a GM is genuinely surprised by a reaction from their players, because it means they expected one reaction and got another. (It's sort of my problem with GM's saying, my players wouldn't go for that when they haven't asked them. Because 9 times out of 10, the GM is wrong.) That's why I mentioned it could be a telling thing for you. Especially since there could be some level of not wanting to disappoint/offend you. Do I think there is any harm in sampling a variety of systems, no. I encourage it. That said, I do think people lose interest if you are frequently swapping systems, because the rules keep changing, their characters they want to invest in don't really progress, etc. At some point, we are competing for attention spans with other forms of media and there are limitations on our time. Even for kids. So when you constantly shift, you increase that barrier to entry friction a little more with every swap. In general, I think for most GMs and groups, it's better for them to master one system, because there are a lot of soft skills that translate between the various systems. Plus, once you've mastered one, you have a sense of how to adjust another because there is a confidence in your ability to handle the game moments that may make you stutter or make a horrible decision. Once you have your mastery down, adapting and playing other systems is a lot easier and more comfortable. Also, I recommend reading other systems while you're running the one you are mastering as well. Some systems will have ways of tackling problems in the system you are mastering that make you think, "oh, I really like how 5e handles this situation, but I dislike how that works" so you can just steal the parts you like. As I mentioned before, no game system is perfect. Most games aren't run perfectly rules as written, because there aren't enough rules for every possible scenario. So a lot of ours are homebrewed and adapted to how we run them at our tables. It's why I pointed to Shadowdark's framework being so basic. The system itself includes a lot of variant options that you could use and those rules change what the game is like at the table. The part that stays the same is the resolution mechanic at its core though. It's fundamentally the most important part. Which, if I'm recommending you sample other systems, I recommend looking at systems with different resolution mechanics, like Forbidden Lands or Savage Worlds or Tiny Dungeon/EZd6. They'll give you more variety and tell you more about what to focus on for your players.
You are not playing the game system wrong, period. I don't want a game of pets. But if your players want pets then make up the mechanic roll the dice and have fun. I'm out and about don't have the rule book with me but there's clearly a part that says you know GM can alter shadow dark and whatever ways they want. Make up your pet/companion rules and sell it on drive-thruRPG. Ditto with DCs or even ACs. I never hide it. They will figure it out in a few rolls anyway. It's a game. When they roll a 15 I want the kids to cheer. Ditto with HPs. I tell them up front. I roll in the open also. It adds legitimacy to the game. And fear and risk. The DM isn't hiding anything and death is possible if the dice say so.
I'm about to get a little dark/jaded/curmudgeonly, I apologize for this. Something in your video inspired a new idea (to me, it may be discussed elsewhere for all I know). I'm not sure if Dragonbane is this sort of game, but it seems like it considering how you discussed advancement being tied to skill checks. A problem I have with modern games that I didn't really realize I had: They _insist_ the system be used. This may be a shadow of the overarching disgust I have with them based on often a mistrust of the GM and need for silly things like "player empowerment" or "player agency" to counteract perceived sins that don't really damn a system, just a specific GM or type of GM. Broken games for broken players who were broken by broken GMs. It was easier to see when 85% of the market wasn't broken players. I can't stomach mainstream RP channels because all I see are second generation broken players, taught by broken players that you don't ever need to ride a bike without training wheels. The insistence I spoke of is present in many modern games, and seems to be about wresting control from a GM from the POV that they don't deserve that control. And frankly, some don't. But, to those of us who've played a long time and found our faults and attempted to iron them out, it kinda feels like using training wheels. Or having a micromanager. I read most games from a scientific perspective. What does this game do well? Does it work better than others? Why? Do I enjoy that? If so, can I replicate it? This is how I landed on things like the D&D loop being the best in the business, and pretty much the only reason D&D is still king. WotC's 6E that just came out better know this. I'll never read it to find out. If World of Darkness had a loop like D&D it would have taken over the entire industry in the 90s. Nobody seemed to have realized how important the loop is. Few games even really employ a gameplay loop, excepting those who do it too overtly. Nobody wants to see the loop. Because then it's predictable and therefore boring. It's been a very long time since I've been enthused about a new system coming out. I've seen so many hype trains that there's no novelty anymore. I don't come from the position of "is this going to be my new go to game?" I moreover think "Am I intrigued by the premise? Is this game significantly different to justify it's existence? Can I take all of the worthwhile differences out of it and attach them to a different game? Would that game be better if I did that? Would that game be better than this game if I did that?" You see, I'm not searching anymore. I found my games. I'm primarily an OSR guy. New games have to come to me. So I see a lot of these hype trains pull out of the station and yawn at the throngs of excitable people who are simply overjoyed at the prospect of spending money to buy B/X D&D again, this time with two-five other house rules than last time. New edition of S&W! Yawn. New edition of Labyrinth Lord! Yawn. New format/edition for OSE! Yawn. This totally new game called Dragonslayer! Yawn. It's all the same. I already own those games, or in some cases _way_ better versions of those games (Dragonslayer, yes I'm talking about you). The OSR is like Legos. It's all modular and cross-compatible because they are all recognizably TSR D&D-derived (mostly B/X and AD&D1). That's why you just pick the OSR you like the most and use that for everything. You picked/are using Shadowdark. And that's cool. To each their own. But I primarily buy supplemental material nowadays. I even consider core books supplemental material (and usually way less bang for your buck). Example: the best megadungeon that's ever been published is called Stonehell (it came out in 2 parts and is on Lulu). It's for Labyrinth Lord. I would run it with Basic Fantasy. You could run it with Shadowdark. I don't even own Labyrinth Lord.
I enjoy going through your comments so much. - now you’re getting me thinking… I think I have noticed the issue that you’re talking about and I’m not sure it’s as simple as the system distrusting GMs, but that’s really close… As I was reading what your wrote you talked about “training wheels” and I instantly thought about how all the video games and movies got really dumbed down a while ago (at least ten years ago it started, maybe longer). I remember there used to be games like the original Myst that didn’t tell you anything! “Figure it out stupid!” The game seemed to say… Now every game has an NPC waking you from objective to objective… then you climb a tower with clearly labeled hand holds to find a new objective-seeking NPC. So I think you are totally correct about the issue being a problem of distrust, but I don’t think that the developers are trying to create systems that distrust the GMs, I think the systems are trying to teach the players and GMs to distrust each other… And maybe that’s also what you were saying. I’m not sure if that makes sense. It feels like it’s a little bit deeper than creating systems that have to be used, there’s something almost divisive about a system like DnD 5e - creating that many rules about an imagination game seems antithetical to imaginative play. I’m rambling now - your comment is really well received and you’ve got me thinking about these systems differently. Thanks Eron
I totally forgot to ask the question… 🙋♂️: I really thought that Dragonbane would replace Shadowdark for our weekly Saturday game based on what I thought my players want from the game experience.
After playing Dragonbane, I’m really happy with the game system, but I like Shadowdark being simple the way it is - Have you ever done that? Have you ever thought you would replace a game system with a different one and then you realized what you liked about the original one?
After coming from 5E, no I started replacing mechanic after mechanic until I pretty much just deleted Dungeons all together! Took bits and pieces of systems I liked and frankensensed them together. Now I call it my own system and trying to forge words to describe it's simplicity while also being "rules light".
@@FamilyTableTop My house has a 5e game I play in and my Goblin game.
That did happen but that's when TORG dropped in the 90s and ate Everything but CoC
yup! This will happen often if you continue exploring systems. Don't be afraid to steal sub-systems you like and work them into your main game with homebrew rules, or as magic item effects/character levelup boons/special bosses
@@redd_Jack340 Stephanie plays games has her whole channel about stealing mechanics. I mean I'm stealing the spell generator and Relics from Knave, and stuff I like from Deep Magic and Ebon Tide the or my SD Goblin Game
It bewilders me that so many people still play Hasbro’s D&D when we have this feast of options to choose from in the indie TTRPG space. The presentation, flavor, design elegance, options are all so much better outside the corporate bubble.
You are so correct - the more I look at the indie systems the more I realize that DnD was designed by corporate committee…
I enjoy DnD, shadwodark, heart, wildsea, mothership, and blades in the dark. They are all different systems. DnD is a mini war game through and through. Shadowdark is a deadly ttrpg that forces players to interact with the world, heart is a game of horror and the journey through madness, mothership is great, wildsea is adventures on the high seas, blades in the dark is oceans eleven and the hardest game to run right.
@@FamilyTableTop "designed by corporate committee" is the best way to describe 5e. Like it's trying to be all things to all people, not even in a "generic RPG" way but in a "mostly incoherent mechanics" way.
Great video and very timely! I'm also in the process of comparing Shadowdark and Dragonbane for one of my upcoming campaigns. Enjoyed hearing your thoughts!
The nice thing about shadowdark is it gives you the ability to mash it with other systems, so if you wanted a pet system from a different game, or the darkness elements from shadowdark, you could potentially combine the two systems to get a Frankenstein monster that acts the way you want. It's a bit more experimental, but with a little work, could come out with something workable.
@@seandersont that’s a great idea. Thank you.
The Wildsea's definitely a friendlier wilderness if that's what you're looking for. If it works, great, and it's always worth trying something new with a group who wants to do it, even if it doesn't ultimately work out. You'll learn the system and some things about what your group does and doesn't like.
Don't worry too much about getting the perfect system that handles everything they want to do. You're going to have to do your own work around the edges of wherever you ultimately settle in if you want to make it the best it can be for them.
While I don't think ShadowDark is geared toward collecting pets, I also don't think there's anything that really prevents it. But this reminds me of playing D&D many years ago (BECMI). There was an adventure where you are able to befriend 2 trained wolves, which I did. They became my companions for a time but as our characters grew stronger, the wolves became less helpful and weren't strong enough to join us in battle. I had grown attached to them and made the decision to leave them "at home" because after gaining 2 or three levels, we were facing things that would have killed them pretty easily. So for me, having pets was cool, but unless they can level up with you, they soon become more of a hindrance than anything.
I laughed at "DragonBane is one of the *best* starter boxes... ok, well, I've opened *two* starter boxes..."But yeah, it's great. I actually just got it myself about 5 days ago. I held off for a long time because I have more games than I can play, but I love the art, the game looks cool, and I think when a company puts out quality stuff like that, they should get some support. I'm also reading Vaesen at the moment, which is also from Free League. I got that one free, but I am buying too many games... I am eyeing Fallen Empires which will launch on Kickstarter in 2 days, and I backed D6 2E, which I should receive in February. I need to back off on game buying for a while.
I was trying to find The Fallen Empires; did you mean The Broken Empires by Trevor Devall?
@@_The_God_King_ yeah, that's the one. I seem to have a mental block when it comes to the name. I keep getting it wrong.
@@jcraigwilliams70 youre good lol! I just wanted to make sure i was looking at the same thing; and maybe help the next person to do the same :)
@@jcraigwilliams70 I have a couple questions -
What do you think of Vaesen?
Could you tell me a little bit more about the Kickstarter game you mentioned?
Why do you move into so many new systems so quickly (I tend to do it also and I’m not really sure why I do…)? - I don’t think it’s based out of dissatisfaction or discontentment… but I could be mistaken. I have a genuine interest in learning about these game systems (both TTRPGs and TTwargames), but it doesn’t feel the same as a FOMO compulsion…
Any thoughts about yourself - maybe my reasons are similar to yours…
@@FamilyTableTop I played Vaesen a few times good game but had some issues. This video does a great job reviewing the game for me.
ua-cam.com/video/hwD4gdXyEG4/v-deo.html
In regards to your concerns about taking the rolling out of Dragonbane...I'm firmly in the camp of having them roll only when it's dramatically appropriate. Not everything needs to be rolled. Does that take an opportunity for a Dragon or Demon on the roll (and thus a chance for a level-up)? Maybe, but my argument is you only improve your skills when challenged to begin. if I have them skip rolling it's because I feel the character is competent enough to success in a no-stress situation. If there's stress, then yeah, have 'em roll.
That’s a good point - I will do that the next time we play Dragonbane. Thank you for the suggestion
@@FamilyTableTop This is probably the best answer. It's great fun to try different game systems and to read them. Ultimately the perfect game is the game you homebrew yourself from different systems and by tweaking things so they work well for your table.
I think it's extremely unlikely that someone has made the perfect game system for your table and even if they did, give it a few months and your players will be excited about something different to what they're excited about now.
The key to great ttrpgs is what you're already doing which is responding to what your players want to do and letting them drive the narrative and the game style to a large degree.
Interested in hearing wildsea review, it's a biiiiig departure from every game you've talked about so far.
Shadowdark has too many rules for me to be assed to run properly, so I've been playing EZD6, and the way you describe what you like about it makes me think you might lean towards narrative/rules light systems
@@redd_Jack340 I think I do enjoy the rules lite systems for our regular games - it’s very relaxing and easy to run.
What do you like about the EZD6 system?
I am running wildsea for my Tuesday game. I love the system, combat is such a small part of the game. It is crazy how enemies don't have hp or anything. It is up to the DM. A big tree attacks you ship like a venus fly trap after so much damage, it releases the ship but exhales spores that make you crazy. Now after so much success you are free. Or the pirates board and attack your ship, after so much success they leave but now shot at you from their ship. I also love how damage to players mean they pick skills and items that are damaged so they have less options as they get through the adventure.
I am thinking of trying it with my Friday group.
@@FamilyTableTop Yeah, if that's how you feel about rules, I'd definitely recommend you give it a look. I'd be willing to have you at one of my online tables, even.
Things I like is a long list but I'll summarize!
Simple dice pool system, gives GM plenty wiggle room on fringe cases.
Untrained? Roll 1 die.
Trained? Roll 2, take the higher.
Trained AND situational advantage/magic involved? Take 3.
Disadvantaged somehow? lose a die on that roll.
Only rolling 1 die and disadvantaged? Roll 2 but take the lower, good luck!
Crits happen often and matter, on 6s, you roll until you don't get another 6. In combat, each crit does another strike and I've had a Warrior player wipe an entire boss room full of minions in one turn, once. We still talk about it a year later. Monster crits explode like this too :3
Karma: whenever you fail a roll you gain a karma, that you can use to increase a roll by 1 (including making 5s into 6s)
Armor Saves and low health: Most characters have 3hp. But every time they're hit they roll armor to avoid the damage. Tanky classes have better armor and they're better at surviving that way, but still fragile.
Magic is risky: Enemies have a # to beat to be impacted by your spell, and players know it before they roll. They get to decide how many dice to roll to meet or beat that number, but any 1s fizzle (at my table it backfires) the spell. No karma can be used for magic either, so the rolls are always high stakes
Just a minor correction: the Dragonbane boxed set is NOT a starter kit. It contains the complete rules for the game. The major difference between the core rulebook and the softcover rulebook in the boxed set is that the core rulebook has a published adventure included.
Having said that, the boxed set is a tremendous value for 50 USD: rules (w errata incorporated), dice, maps, cutouts w plastic bases, battle maps, an entire campaign, solo adventuring, pregens, and character sheets. Compare that with the core rulebook at 43 USD, and it's no contest.
Thank you for clarifying- you’re right the boxed set is an amazing deal!
You are the game designer at the table. Systems are only as holy as you deem them to be. Take pieces from ANYTHING to make sure you hit ALL the notes both you want to run as a GM, and the players want to experience
I loved hearing your point of view about both systems. I do not necessarily like the same things as you about DB (I do not like skill-based systems, exactly for the reason you mentioned: if you don't give players opportunities to roll, they will feel like they are not getting better), but that box set is incredibly nice, AFAIK the best gift to a group just starting out ttrpgs. It would be awesome if I could send you a DCC softcover book, you would have so much highlighter fun with it 😂 I wanna say sorry about my reaction to your highlighting, it's just how I was raised in the 70's - books were sacred, especially beautiful books like DB. For a DCC softcover or a Basic Fantasy softcover from Amazon, I wouldn't even lift an eyebrow. I'm curious about Wildsea, as I haven't heard much about it yet. Good luck on your exploration!
I agree on your point about skill-based systems and I too dislike "rollplay" and prefer more role playing and creative play from players. For me I also dislike skill-based systems, because they disallow all players from trying to do something AND shoehorn others into being the go to "talk to NPC's guy", "intimidation guy" etc. On top of that skill-based systems often force players into choosing between combat skills and non-combat skills, this further tends to make players make very similar characters, which gets boring really fast.
I'm really enjoying Dragonbane, for a lot of the reasons you mention. I've been playing with my kid, and it really has been the most fun I've had at the table in a long while. I will say though, I think the combat is so much fun that we really do play it almost more as a miniature wargame with heavy roleplaying elements than a straight ttrpg. In my solo game I definitely have a lot more negotiation and deeper roleplay. I don't really see this as a weakness of Dragonbane, per se, but I do think it can lead to some missed opportunities for the kid to develop good roleplay habits.
Dragonbane will definitely be the system I use for one shots/short campaigns, but I'm moving over to Forbidden Lands as my home base for the hexcrawling, exploration-based play that keeps me invested in a long term campaign.
Good video. I get the impression that you're probably a good DM. That's good to see.
Really? What gives you that idea? I am fairly new to DMing (just over a year)…
@@FamilyTableTop You're paying attention to game + players. That's something I look for in a DM and what I try to do in my own games. I don't think the sheer amount of time spent as a DM is as relevant as the willingness to think about how the players and the game are flowing together. Sure, experience matters, especially when we're talking about a particular rule set. But I think the willingness to have a give-and-take, facilitate the player experience (which seems like a kind of middle path between giving them space and not being so permissive that all the dramatic tension goes away), and thinking carefully about how it's going are optimal.
I'm loving ShadowDark RPG so much better than D&D 5e it will probably be a while before I try something else. Having said that I did back the D6 Second Edition on Kickstarter so I will probably be playing some next year.
Im looking into "Break!!" which also has great speed and useful tables for travel and negotiating encounters. It also might be a better fit for those who want pets. It won awards for layout and best family game. The art and setting really seem to synthesize all the fantasy things that my family likes. Less Conan more Zelda.
Hey! Thank you for the recommendation- I’ve never heard of Break!!, I will look up the system.
Does your family play together often?
@@FamilyTableTop Truthfully we've only played 2 sessions last year before my friend had to quit DMing. Since then we talk about it a lot but haven't scheduled. It is my dream and the only people I really want to play with.
To answer your other question, I have borrowed mechanics from another system. I borrowed "i am a adjective noun who verbs" character creation, and Cyphers from Numenera, and used them in The Black Hack. I've also considered borrowing The Glow, and navigating and salvaging mechanics all from "Sundered Skies" (a Savage World setting) and running the setting in a different system because I don't know any good Savage Worlds GMs and it's not me either.
I think it depends upon if you want to mechanize getting pets. My kids just want a pet. But if yours want to turn everything into a pet, you might want to lean heavier into that with mechanics, and it would make sense to try a different game.
If they tried to make every monster their pet, I just wouldn't allow it. Most animals in the real world aren't suitable as a pet, the same is true of fantastical animals. At some point giving your players the same "I win" button gets boring.
@@bobbycrosby9765 that’s a really good point. Maybe there’s some way to manage the balance between making pets overly powerful and potentially dull (like a Pokémon game) and keeping the fantastic creature system interesting with fantastic animal NPCs
I switched from D&D5e to Dragonbane in march. We're almost done with the starter box adventures and its been a blast.. with only 2 players and a DM we've tried to talk ourself out of battles because. they're deadly, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. But the fact that hitpoints doesnt go up unless you take the heroic feat is a nice touch. only tried Shadowdark once. while it was fun I would have to play it more to get a proper feel for it.
Looking forward to your thoughts on Wildsea. I also just got a copy of it.
@@syrneth8775 what do you think of it?
@@FamilyTableTop Literally just pulled the wrapper off! All I can say so far is “cool art”.
@@syrneth8775 the art is SOOOO good
I always wonder if people will try new things in my group, but we usually stick to tried and true. However I am also exploring some new systems to see if I can run some play by post games with folks. See if it’s fun in the medium.
Wildsea is super fun! It's quite differently from anything you've looked into so far. It's very narrative and collaborative, you'll have moments where your table turns into a little writer's room for a bit. You gotta get ready for a different style of GMing that's much more improv focused.
That said, I think it's totally okay to have pets in shadowdark! It's just a matter of how the world reacts to them. Will a village be comfortable with a massive spider marching through there? I think another thing is, what do they genuinely help with? Do they provide a bonus? Or are they a new entity in every combat? Does the spider trust each member of the party equally? Or will someone wake up being rolled up in webs one night?
You mentioned that magic doesn't work how they'd like it to. Do you have any more details on that? What's making you think Wildsea is going to have a good magic system for your players.
I have exactly this decision to make right now for one group, I own both systems and haven't run either yet.
@@tubebobwil which two systems are you considering?
@@tubebobwil …oh, you said exactly. That’s cool. I’d say - well, which system is more interesting to you?
DB is s very lethal system. With those numbers against them, it should not have been a walk in the dungeon. Tidal Wave is also a rank 2 spell, requiring Frost and the character can’t begin with that spell, normally.
The wonderful thing about TTRPGs is there are very few hard and fast rules you must obey. I totally steal mechanics from other systems for my game. Sometimes you may have to work to insure things are balanced, but all in all you should tailor your game to fit you and your players . Games are all about having fun, after all!
What are some rules that you’ve added to your games?
@@FamilyTableTop I run a bastardized version of BECMI in a homebrew campaign world. I swiped a lot from Shadowdark including roll to cast for spells, the spell mishap table (modified to my taste), the rules for darkness and torches being real time. I also allow players to trade initiative and give each player 6 flex dice at the beginning of each session which they can use to boost saves, attack, damage or skill checks. They are also allowed to trade these. Those are a few off the top of my head.
I liked this video and understand your points.
Just one thing, the Dragonbane box is not a Starter one, it is a core box. 😅
Stay away from Forbidden Lands, or else you will have another amazing system and setting in your backlog. 😅
How is forbidden lands? What do you like about it?
@@FamilyTableTop I said you shouldn't do it. 😅
Year Zero Engine
Unique setting
Cool hexcrawl mechanics
A lot of tables to assist the GM (low prep)
And the list goes on...
I'm glad you're starting to get the feeling of what you like and don't like about verious systems. But It's also good that you know what are considered features and flaws of each system as well as they're all different to each other. Trying out Wildsea with your players will be good to also give you a feeling if that is exactly what you want as from what I can tell, you can still translate your story and setting into that system very well since you were able to do it with Dragonbane.
I haven't felt like I have that *exact* situation with the switching systems, but I have experienced at least realizing why I like another system in rekindling why I enjoyed it. DCC is my go to system as you already know, but having experienced two dms running 5e in such fun ways, I think I rekindled my love for DnD 5e again where I'm okay with running a oneshot for my friends in a different setting. Though I think Dragonbane may also work well in the setting as well because it feels like it leans into the S&S in it's system though I would have to figure out how the hell to recreate the Void Warlock for that system as it's a classless system and the void warlock is very specific in it's set up (I watched the video you made on how to "make classes" in a classless system but I think the Void Warlock would be very complicated still xD;; Because it's more of a "corrupting" class as it slowly corrupts you the more you use it and makes it a moral delema at some point if you're a good charater trying to do good with it only to making things worse. It's a fun storytelling class in my playtesting of it in one of the games I play in 5e because slowly you can chip away at your own personality to make Neon Shadows.) I love Fate, DCC is one I lean into more, but 5e was rekindled for me and I'm happy with that. It means I have more options.
I will say, you got me wanting to look into Dragonbane and I'll probably also look into Shadowdark in the future. Shadow of the Demon Lord and Barbarians of Lumeria are still two I want to first experience before I go and jumping into other systems. (Fate Accelerated was one of the other ones that was already in the same level of SotDL and BoL when I was first looking into details). But Dragonbane may come first because I really love the artstyle of the stuff being an artist myself. (I do like Shadowdark's artstyle but DCC have a similar aethetic in a lot of cases so I want to look at Dragonbane's art a bit as well to mix it up a bit lol)
On a side note: 😂You playing your games on Saturdays explains why you haven't shown up to my streams. I'm not upset, I was just wondering if that was the case. And it sounds like you play pretty late into the night as well so of course you would be missing as I think you're still playing yours around 10pm EST, or finishing up and collapsing around that time too (Mine is also a shorter game due to players needs, so I'm ending around 12am EST as well). Eventually there will come a time I'll run a game for you, just our times don't align at the moment lol. which is fair.
In general I don't like "you get XP/Benefits by failing or succeeding dice rolls" mechanics in game, mostly for the same reasons you mention. I prefer players to role play and describe their actions (something I rarely see in games like 5e). And I especially like it when their descriptions *matter*. For example in my campaign players describe how they look for traps. Sometimes they just look with their eyes, bringing the torch closer. Othertimes they tap with a 10' pole. These methods will reveal different info - maybe it sounds hollow when tapped on - maybe the act of tapping trips a very thin wire that you just can't see from 10 feet away and now there's a cloud of gas! Using role-play and player description means the character's actions are entirely up to the player - they have control!
The play culture of rolling a d20 for every single thing you do is very common these days, but it just doesn't speak to me. It feels like the dice are the ones *really* playing my character and that I need to be an improvisation actor responding to the suggestions the dice are giving me. I think mechanics that reward failing a roll or rolling a 1 or whatever are mainly a "patch" to soften the disappointment a that the dice often produce for players in this style of game.
On the topic of "Pets", there is a commonly used mechanic in a lot of OSR games often called "retainers" or "henchmen" or things like that. In general it's meant for people sidekicks instead of animals, but it's really easy to use for animals. I just perused ShadowDark and found that no rules for retainers are included in the base game.
Here's how I typically see them used in other OSR games. You have a max number of retainers (either at once or for the characters entire life) - this number can go up or down based on charisma. No retainer can be equal to your level (or hit dice), so if you are level 3 and the giant spider is 4 hit dice, then it might be friendly to you, but it's not going to be your pet - it can sense that really it's more powerful than you.
The retainers have a loyalty score (start in the middle, like 7 on 2d6 or maybe 11 on a d20 - depending on your system). Check their loyalty anytime they are being asked to do something dangerous or risky. They might flee from combat or not want to open the suspicious treasure chest or touch the mummy, etc. The loyalty can go up and down based on how the player treats them. They get a magic item for keeps? +1 loyalty. They saw one of your other retainers die right before their eyes? -1 loyalty (and you should probably roll a loyalty check to see if they quit right then and there).
Having a good engine is good, but players will want what they want ... this can fall into the category of where a DM says NO, or No But.
NO your character can not jump this ravine, they will die.
NO you can't convince the dragon to part with it's treasure BUT you convince it to give you a loan due in 50 years ...
Don't be just a Yes or No DM, But or And helps alot with detail and expanded options.
Bro the darkness is such a massive part of the game. Managing torches and fighting against the dark is such a big part of the game.
Things are supposed to be dangerous. Obviously not everything takes place in a dark location but still.
I totally get that, and I don’t think that’s the vibe that my players are into… which is why I have toned down the dark.
Dragonbane is now my number one light RPG. My group likes it very much. Shadowdark is clever, but it's yet again a variation of D&D, which I'm tired of. When I get nostalgic, I play a solo game of D&D BX, which is for me, the original light system with all its qualities and warts.
@@marccaron6008 how long has your group been playing Dragonbane?
My players like SD even though they may die. Keeps um on there toes cause I don't need to tried to kill um. So they also talk too much in the Shadows
Highlighter tape will change your life, trust me!
You should consider playing the campaign that came with the Box Set. It presents a really great mix of combat and role playing opportunity and generally good stories. Maybe down the road you can do it 1 every 4 sessions. Each part of the campaign is a mini adventure of its own.
I was in the same position choosing between SD & DB, but for my group they enjoy a bit more combat crunch then SD and the diversity of professions and having more control on their development. But every group is different! Glad you tried it.
I don’t know if you have the mothership RPG, but you shouldn’t incorporate the death cup mechanic
Instead of Dragonbane, have you looked into playing EZ D6 as a game that is quick to pick up, easy to run, and fun to play between full group sessions?
I have not looked at the system yet - but it has been on my radar. Thank you for reminding me!
@@FamilyTableTop The Dude abides. I use Shadowdark with my main play group, but when on boarding kids or new players into the TTRPG world, EZ D6 is my go to. I still run the same modules as I would with OSE or SD, but with the EZ D6 rule set. Converting monster stats is super easy (use the number of HD as strikes, and divide the AC by 3 for the "to hit" number), and it can get gonzo fun if the dice start rolling out 6s! Highly recommended.
My top three systems to run right now are 1. Dragonbane 2. Numenera/Cypher System 3. Shadowdark
Shadow Dark is really a D&D derivitive. Dragonbane comes from BRP. The odd thing is, Dragonbane is skills based. The leveling system is not very unique. Cuthulu, Runequest, King Arthur Pendragon, Mythras etc all the used the same system. In OSR characters get super powerful , yet in Dragonbane you don't. In my opinion Shadow Dark. Is more combat orientated. If your used to OSR it's easy, so you're chilled. If you're used to BRP, then it's chilled. If you see what I mean. I don't want to play a game where you start off with 6 hit points and at level 10 end up with 58 hit points, then OSR is for you. In Dragonbane you might start off with 11 hit points and end up with 15. For me BRP is a better simulator.
Good point about the HP - that does make a difference in play style.
By the way, what is BRP?
@@FamilyTableTop Basic Role-Playing is Chaosium's d100 roll under, classless, skill based, game engine used in games such as Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon and a bunch of old Elric ttrpg which were the basis for old Drakkar och Demoner, which at some point changed the d100 roll under for d20 roll under, then a couple of years ago Free League picked up the IP, added some Year Zero Engine stuff and called it Dragonbane for its international release, so it shares more DNA with Call of Cthulhu than with Dungeons and Dragons.
Both great games but the sheer ease of running all my OSR stuff in SD puts it over the top, for a typical DnD setting. DB is superior for games that deviate more from standard DnD tropes - it suits rare monsters and more in depth roleplay I think.
Yet Dragonbane isn't OSR and it doesn't derive from D&D. Ir comes from BRP and is mechanically similar to King Arthur Pendragon. It swaps percentile dice for a D20 but it's really closer to Runequest mechanically. It does feel however rather D&Desque in game play, doesn't it.
@@galinor7 Yes, that is all true. It's mechanically BRP with a few bits from YZE and 5e D&D. Set in a D&D like world. :)
Yep, it sounds like you prefer the same type of gaming as I do. Old school gaming, which Shadowdark represents very well. Any of the more modern designed systems, like Dragonbane, MCDM, Daggerheart, Pathfinder, etc... have a lot of the same problems as D&D5e.
That modern design bloat just adds crunch which takes time, and creates overpowered characters that encourage the players to not think things through and instead just blow everything up. This is exactly why rules lite systems, especially those that are based loosely on classic D&D systems, just work the best and the fastest, and as you suggest.. more chill.
I've played OD&D, B/X, AD&D, BECMI, etc.. and the best version of that old school system that I've discovered so far are: Shadowdark and Dolmenwood. Of those two, I say that Dolmenwood is the winner because it has almost all of the simplicity that Shadowdark offers, while also having a thoroughly rich setting and a system of rules that enhance and back up that setting. Now for some, that may mean that they prefer Shadowdark, and though I prefer Dolmenwood myself, that would be an understandable position.
I've had players that enjoyed Shadowdark, but felt it was just a tad too simplistic from a character customization/options point of view. That is where Dolmenwood wins imho. It adds JUST enough player options without it feeling like the bloat of modern systems, and for my players, this was the perfect balance.
Dolmenwood is pretty amazing. For people who like a generic setting, I get why they would go with Old School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy. For people who want more character customization than even Dolmenwood, I get why they would pick Hyperboria 3. I think Dolmenwood might be closer to my sweet spot though.
I will always encourage trying new systems and expanding your experience. But as far as what your players want? in dragonbane, they had fun abilities and used them. In shadowdark, they have freedom, it is an "open game" that you as the DM can allow/homebrew anything. They want to spend their freedom hunting pets, roll with it and do whatever you/they want.
You have said a few times now that you feel you are playing it wrong, you need to let that go. In most RPGs, especially open "rulings over rules" rpgs there is no right or wrong way to play. There is only the way you choose to play at your table with your players.
My SD game runs like a heroic, high fantasy with lots of combat, and yes. Pets. My players lean in that direction, but like you I enjoy the ease of prep and play for the DM, and the ability to homebrew/add systems with out breaking the game, that shadowdark provides.
Maybe get Anime 5E they have a Pokémon trainer like class and although it makes it a bit more crunchy you could easily use it in Shadowdark or 5E.
I think I mentioned in another video, that I also thought of getting into Dragonbane for my solo-RPG environment. As soon as I found out, that the combat system is a bit gamey, I immediately abandoned the idea. I want to rollplay rather than to play a boardgame. That being said however, making checks is essential for me as it provides outcomes to situations. The more I roll on certain activities, the better for getting ideas.
Your players want pets too. Everytime I put an animal in my games, I have one player who always wants to take it home.
Surprised TBH as Dragonbane feels like a lot more interesting system. To each their own though 😊
After a few of your live sessions and questions asked, I think you're equating mechanical systems to campaign settings too fully. You mention your players want to befriend animals and keep them as pets, and how you think Wildsea is the system for that as a result, but after testing Dragonbane, you were surprised that while they liked it, they preferred Shadowdark, despite the fact that they are trying to play a game you think Shadowdark doesn't support. More than anything, this tells me your players are telling you exactly what they prefer (Shadowdark) and you are misinterpreting it on this quest for the perfect game system (which doesn't exist, there's always something wrong with them). Which suggests to me, that you may not truly be confident in your abilities as a GM to make rulings on the fly, or, that you don't understand your players saying they prefer a simple system that gets out of the way of gameplay. You even mentioned during one of the livestreams that you had one player who preferred having more definition to the system to limit their choices (analysis/option paralysis) and immediately jumped to a chunkier system would benefit them.
I haven't been a new GM for awhile, but that seems inherently backwards to me. At their core, as a GM, the most important of any game system is the resolution mechanic and how complicated that is. Shadowdark is super simple and that seems to be what you and your players enjoy because it moves things along.
Shadowdark: Determine (dis)advantage. Roll 1d20 against a DC, modify with any modifier. Is result higher? Yes = good. No = bad. Done.
Dragonbane: Determine skill that would be applicable. Determine (dis)advantage. Roll 1d20 against a DC, modify with any & all modifiers. Track 1s/20s. Is result under? Yes = good. No = bad. Done.
5e: Determine if skill, attack, etc. Determine (dis)advantage. Roll 1d20 against a DC, modify with any & all modifiers. Add proficiency (if applicable). Unless this is a contest, then roll against target's roll. Is result higher? Yes = good. No = bad. Was it a 1 or 20? Determine automatic success/failure accordingly (if applicable). Done.
Because Shadowdark is the leanest of the engines you are using currently, it makes affording players opportunities to do any and everything more freely and the game gets out of the way of saying yes or no for you. Because all you have to do when something comes up that wasn't considered in the book is debate whether or not a roll is needed. At that point, the system is simple. 1d20 + modifier (advantage or no). The book doesn't contemplate pets, but that doesn't mean there isn't a system for befriending pets. One of the strongest pieces of GM advice in Shadowdark is summarized as "rulings, not rules." That means, "if I didn't consider a mechanic that you think should be there, such as a system for pets, you decide how it works and use it based on the framework I gave you - 1d20 + modifier (dis/advantage) against DC." All you have to do as a GM is determine what makes sense in the scenario.
While the implied setting for Shadowdark is a dark, low fantasy setting. You can play anything with it. There are people on the discord server currently playing Pokemon and Dolmenwood with Shadowdark. There are people converting old 5e or OD&D adventure modules. The system is designed to allow that. This is why I think you might lack some confidence as a GM, because your players are saying, "WE LIKE SHADOWDARK" and yet, you think it's the wrong system because it doesn't have rules for all the scenarios you could come across. But that's okay. No system will. The question is does the framework give you enough to make the rulings when the rules don't have a solution for you. And here, the system is yes. Just have faith in it and your ability to make a ruling in that moment that works within the framework.
I appreciate your push back about this - you’re helping me to consider that I might be misinterpreting some information my players are giving me… but there is still a possibility that I am correctly assessing my players likes and dislikes.
At the moment, I dont really see a problem with mixing it up in new systems.
We might eventually wind up right back in Shadowdark - do you think there is harm in sampling different systems?
@@FamilyTableTop You very well could be assessing correctly. My spidey-senses tingle when a GM is genuinely surprised by a reaction from their players, because it means they expected one reaction and got another. (It's sort of my problem with GM's saying, my players wouldn't go for that when they haven't asked them. Because 9 times out of 10, the GM is wrong.) That's why I mentioned it could be a telling thing for you. Especially since there could be some level of not wanting to disappoint/offend you.
Do I think there is any harm in sampling a variety of systems, no. I encourage it. That said, I do think people lose interest if you are frequently swapping systems, because the rules keep changing, their characters they want to invest in don't really progress, etc. At some point, we are competing for attention spans with other forms of media and there are limitations on our time. Even for kids. So when you constantly shift, you increase that barrier to entry friction a little more with every swap.
In general, I think for most GMs and groups, it's better for them to master one system, because there are a lot of soft skills that translate between the various systems. Plus, once you've mastered one, you have a sense of how to adjust another because there is a confidence in your ability to handle the game moments that may make you stutter or make a horrible decision. Once you have your mastery down, adapting and playing other systems is a lot easier and more comfortable.
Also, I recommend reading other systems while you're running the one you are mastering as well. Some systems will have ways of tackling problems in the system you are mastering that make you think, "oh, I really like how 5e handles this situation, but I dislike how that works" so you can just steal the parts you like. As I mentioned before, no game system is perfect. Most games aren't run perfectly rules as written, because there aren't enough rules for every possible scenario. So a lot of ours are homebrewed and adapted to how we run them at our tables.
It's why I pointed to Shadowdark's framework being so basic. The system itself includes a lot of variant options that you could use and those rules change what the game is like at the table. The part that stays the same is the resolution mechanic at its core though. It's fundamentally the most important part. Which, if I'm recommending you sample other systems, I recommend looking at systems with different resolution mechanics, like Forbidden Lands or Savage Worlds or Tiny Dungeon/EZd6. They'll give you more variety and tell you more about what to focus on for your players.
You are not playing the game system wrong, period. I don't want a game of pets. But if your players want pets then make up the mechanic roll the dice and have fun. I'm out and about don't have the rule book with me but there's clearly a part that says you know GM can alter shadow dark and whatever ways they want.
Make up your pet/companion rules and sell it on drive-thruRPG.
Ditto with DCs or even ACs. I never hide it. They will figure it out in a few rolls anyway. It's a game. When they roll a 15 I want the kids to cheer. Ditto with HPs. I tell them up front. I roll in the open also. It adds legitimacy to the game. And fear and risk. The DM isn't hiding anything and death is possible if the dice say so.
I'm about to get a little dark/jaded/curmudgeonly, I apologize for this.
Something in your video inspired a new idea (to me, it may be discussed elsewhere for all I know). I'm not sure if Dragonbane is this sort of game, but it seems like it considering how you discussed advancement being tied to skill checks. A problem I have with modern games that I didn't really realize I had: They _insist_ the system be used. This may be a shadow of the overarching disgust I have with them based on often a mistrust of the GM and need for silly things like "player empowerment" or "player agency" to counteract perceived sins that don't really damn a system, just a specific GM or type of GM. Broken games for broken players who were broken by broken GMs. It was easier to see when 85% of the market wasn't broken players. I can't stomach mainstream RP channels because all I see are second generation broken players, taught by broken players that you don't ever need to ride a bike without training wheels.
The insistence I spoke of is present in many modern games, and seems to be about wresting control from a GM from the POV that they don't deserve that control. And frankly, some don't.
But, to those of us who've played a long time and found our faults and attempted to iron them out, it kinda feels like using training wheels. Or having a micromanager.
I read most games from a scientific perspective. What does this game do well? Does it work better than others? Why? Do I enjoy that? If so, can I replicate it? This is how I landed on things like the D&D loop being the best in the business, and pretty much the only reason D&D is still king. WotC's 6E that just came out better know this. I'll never read it to find out. If World of Darkness had a loop like D&D it would have taken over the entire industry in the 90s. Nobody seemed to have realized how important the loop is. Few games even really employ a gameplay loop, excepting those who do it too overtly. Nobody wants to see the loop. Because then it's predictable and therefore boring.
It's been a very long time since I've been enthused about a new system coming out. I've seen so many hype trains that there's no novelty anymore. I don't come from the position of "is this going to be my new go to game?" I moreover think "Am I intrigued by the premise? Is this game significantly different to justify it's existence? Can I take all of the worthwhile differences out of it and attach them to a different game? Would that game be better if I did that? Would that game be better than this game if I did that?"
You see, I'm not searching anymore. I found my games. I'm primarily an OSR guy. New games have to come to me. So I see a lot of these hype trains pull out of the station and yawn at the throngs of excitable people who are simply overjoyed at the prospect of spending money to buy B/X D&D again, this time with two-five other house rules than last time. New edition of S&W! Yawn. New edition of Labyrinth Lord! Yawn. New format/edition for OSE! Yawn. This totally new game called Dragonslayer! Yawn. It's all the same. I already own those games, or in some cases _way_ better versions of those games (Dragonslayer, yes I'm talking about you).
The OSR is like Legos. It's all modular and cross-compatible because they are all recognizably TSR D&D-derived (mostly B/X and AD&D1). That's why you just pick the OSR you like the most and use that for everything. You picked/are using Shadowdark. And that's cool. To each their own. But I primarily buy supplemental material nowadays. I even consider core books supplemental material (and usually way less bang for your buck).
Example: the best megadungeon that's ever been published is called Stonehell (it came out in 2 parts and is on Lulu). It's for Labyrinth Lord. I would run it with Basic Fantasy. You could run it with Shadowdark. I don't even own Labyrinth Lord.
I enjoy going through your comments so much.
- now you’re getting me thinking…
I think I have noticed the issue that you’re talking about and I’m not sure it’s as simple as the system distrusting GMs, but that’s really close…
As I was reading what your wrote you talked about “training wheels” and I instantly thought about how all the video games and movies got really dumbed down a while ago (at least ten years ago it started, maybe longer). I remember there used to be games like the original Myst that didn’t tell you anything! “Figure it out stupid!” The game seemed to say…
Now every game has an NPC waking you from objective to objective… then you climb a tower with clearly labeled hand holds to find a new objective-seeking NPC.
So I think you are totally correct about the issue being a problem of distrust, but I don’t think that the developers are trying to create systems that distrust the GMs, I think the systems are trying to teach the players and GMs to distrust each other…
And maybe that’s also what you were saying.
I’m not sure if that makes sense. It feels like it’s a little bit deeper than creating systems that have to be used, there’s something almost divisive about a system like DnD 5e - creating that many rules about an imagination game seems antithetical to imaginative play.
I’m rambling now - your comment is really well received and you’ve got me thinking about these systems differently.
Thanks Eron
You lost me at "take the rolling out." I play games to roll dice.