The ULTIMATE GUIDE To Deciding if Rotrex Is Right For You.
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- I suppose I should have included some other important information, like supporting mods 😃 ME442 ECU, ID1000 injectors, ACT Xtreme full face clutch with 1.6L Fidanza flywheel, DW300 fuel pump, 6-speed + 4.3.
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0:00 Intro
2:10 What is a Centrifugal Supercharger?
3:05 TDR Kit/Components Overview
7:57 Dyno Day
14:11 Roots, Centrifugal, & Turbo Dyno Comparisons
18:37 Is Rotrex or Turbo Easier to Install?
19:33 Turbo vs. Supercharger Tuning Experience?
20:29 Is Rotrex Safe For The Stock Engine?
21:27 Do Centrifugal Superchargers Have Any Lag?
24:33 Turbo vs. Super: Heat Management
25:09 Supercharger + Nitrous??
26:13 Open BOV vs. Recirculated Sound Tests
28:46 Rotrex BP vs. K Swap
29:09 What Exactly Do You NEED In Order To Supercharge Your Miata? - Авто та транспорт
![Miata Gets a Bigger Turbo & 32PSI!!! New Power Record - But Does It Lag? [Full Dyno Test]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/66Aiuj041_c/mqdefault.jpg)
![Miata Gets a Bigger Turbo & 32PSI!!! New Power Record - But Does It Lag? [Full Dyno Test]](/img/tr.png)
Great video Greg! It's surprising how little videos there are geared around the rotrex, that LHT video is like the only one that has a teardown and internals and even then it's not detailed enough on the disassembly to replicate.
Some things to note from your video here, you mentioned how close virtual dyno was to the actual dyno results (3ish HP), I'm sure you did data logs while on the dyno and since you have the exact HP for the pull you could play with the input data of the app to read the exact same outcome essentially dialing it in so your street logs would be an exact representation of what the Dyno results would be.
IDK if the Dyno is able to record boost pressure for the display off of a vacuum line from the engine but that would have been a great data point along with AFR to go with the HP and torque reading. Looks like you were dealing with something on the top end... even in the final Dyno pull there is a dip then climb right before redline. Curious if you pinpointed the cause? what is peak boost 11psi? AFR target? Total timing at peak boost you got away with?
One thing you mentioned was TDR was able to make a bit over 300WHP on this same size blower with stock engine BUT you are running the blower at max RPM and got 260WHP, I would guess that was on better fuel but what else would have been done to get that result over what you got?🤔 Maybe PS and AC delete? IIRC you already have a lightweight flywheel and looks like lighter wheels also (less rotational weight on the motor).
One last bit of relevant info is the Rotrex oil system has a max temperature of 80c or 176F. For anyone pushing the blower past it's RPM limits you will want to go overboard on the oil system cooler and possibly a second reservoir. There are some builds running the blower as much as 20-25% over spin and get away with it by keeping the oil temperature in check.
I would love to see someone spray water/meth (high pressure atomization/small CC, 70-100% mix supposedly works well) into supercharger inlet and see the effects in boost pressure and gains on the dyno. (aquamist, prometh, and usually sideways rally team offer the nozzle holders).
Great set of questions here
The dyno can read PSI but I forgot to hook it up. I'm disappointed in myself for not showing the boost curve in the video, it's such an important part of learning about the powerband of a centrifugal supercharger. This is from the datalog, for reference:
RPM - PSI(G)
2000 - 0.7
2500 - 1.9
3000 - 2.6
3500 - 3.6
4000 - 4.4
4500 - 5.7
5000 - 6.7
5500 - 8.3
6000 - 10.0
6500 - 11.6
7000 - 12.9
7500 - 14.4
The high RPM dip is most likely ignition related as boost remained constant in the logs, but you can see a blip in AFR right where the dip is. AFR target is high 11's.
I know TDR's setup was a C30-94 with a 90mm pulley just like mine, I'm not sure if they were using the 130mm crank or 150mm crank pulley. I know it is possible to over-spin the supercharger to make more boost, there are plenty of people doing it but I'm not sure how that affects longevity. Also - my engine is definitely not the healthiest, it only makes 125whp with no boost. So a healthy VVT motor making 150whp should be close to 300whp at 14.4psi, and more with E85/more timing.
Good to hear another person talking about over-spinning, since it's just a street car I don't think fluid temp is going to be much of an issue. Sounds like it's time for me to order an 80mm pulley 😎
@@TheCarPassionChannel IDK man sure you could go smaller pulley but then you are pushing well past the Rotrex units efficiency range.🤷♂️ I think the better option is to do the same bolt-ons you would NA, head flow would go a long way along with a cam, boost pressure would come down (at same spin RPM) but power would go up.
Same with spraying methanol pre-blower, would effectively make the blower flow more CFM from methanol flashing off pulling heat and condensing the charge. And if you went that route might as well go dual control and spray the intake manifold for knock resistance and advice timing further.
Also 14.4 PSI on stock ring gap IDK how much further you could push it. (Seems like a lot) 🤔
I think you should do one of those short clips or reels calculating the engine CFM and work that equation out Rotrex provides against the blowers efficiently map along with the dyno pull sheet and show where in the map the blower is at against the pull. I would like to have a better understanding of how to read those and seeing it against real world data would be great! 🤓
@@TheCarPassionChannel Can't wait for E85 install video..! I will have to get this rotrex for my crystal blue mica 2001! My buddy has a crystal blue mica with the TDR as well being sold in mid Illinois if anyones interested
TDR Please give this man the means to make a fully in depth breakdown of the install of one of your kits.
if anybody from TDR is reading this i’ve spent so much money on ur site that i wouldn’t have if not for Cræîūgh
love that mic lmao
Shoulda had a baguette, but I still dig it!
Both Gingium and Korg pumping out miata content today, feels good man
Fabium's video was top tier today
Miata Dad's back and this time with a 30 minute video! Time to get the popcorn🍿
I have a crazy built motor and Rotrex setup. Over the past 2 winters we have turboed 2 other cars, an NA, and an NB. We all track our cars.
The Rotrex systems is much easier to keep cool on the track due to the fact that it does not create all the heat in the engine bay like a turbo does, and it does not put heat into the fluids like a turbo does. You do not need an oil cooler, and you absolutely will if you want to track a turbo car.
You can see videos of all these projects on the youtube channel James Gang Racing. We are not as cool as Greg, but we have fun.
I like the centrifugal type supercharger, it feels more naturally aspirated and I feel it’s less stressful on the engine. Simplicity of installation is a plus as well, that and it’s less popular.
The Rotrex, twinscrew, and TVS series roots are about 75% efficient. Adding an intercooler improves efficiency, reducing the parasitic loss.
The boost in a centrifugal supercharger like the Rotrex increases with RPM. A roots and twinscrew supercharger make a fixed boost at all RPM's, the roots doesn't seal as well as the twin screw, so low RPM isn't as good as the twin screw.
In all superchargers, boost climbs as you near redline because the restrictions in the intake ports and valves (volumetric efficiency).
The Fast Forward supercharger kit (also a weekend install) using the TVS900 roots can easily hit 300WHP with E85 (130mm crank pulley). It replaces the intake manifold, reducing the volume after the throttle, idle is easier to set (dual throttle bodies help with a hotside supercharger and large intercooler). It is also CARB certified for those of us in Kalifornia.
Appreciate all you do for the community 👍
Nice video , great to see you using the ME442 👍
Been waiting for this vid. Thanks!
Great video! I have been eyeing this kit for 4 years but haven't pulled the trigger on it since it seems like there isn't any recent info or reviews of it. This video answered most of the questions i had and i look forward to future videos from you on this kit, thank you as usual!
Thanks for a great video! I have the TDR in my 99 Miata, it just makes you smile!
Thank you Craig 😅.
Great video as always. Super informative.
Your videos are excellent! You definitely deserve more subs.
Great job as always mate!!!!!
Great summary of Rotrex vs Roots vs Turbski, Grog! Love your deep dives. Keep on keeping on!
Great video as always
Just an absolute incredible knowledge share. Love seeing all of the data/charts to back everything up. I kinda want a SC now 😂
This was a great explainer with regards to the safety of the way the torque comes on with the rotrex
Great video! I would be VERY interested in a full install guide
Nice video and love the BP engine.👍👍
Fantastic work 👍
Huge thanks to the miata dad for another excellent video as always, very informative yet entertaining!
This might be the best video you’ve ever made. Well done.
Awesome video on the rotrex!
Went through all the same questions from people when I had one of the first rotrex supercharged S195 mustangs. You did a great job with all the explanations. Will be switching from an MP45 to the rotrex this fall on the race car.
I've been dying for this content. I'm planning the same rotrex on my nb2 swapped '94. Thanks!
I just put the smaller rotrex with an 80 pulley on my miata and it’s insane fun. Would definitely recommend
I'm so curious to see the effects of the different supercharger sizes and pulley setups. They're so easy to change... might be worth a dyno day!
@@TheCarPassionChannel right now I’m running the fuel and timing cards, I am looking at getting a ms3 and a tune soon. So unfortunately can’t tell you much about my graph or numbers. And if anyone wants to know, the fuel and timing cards work great and it was significantly easier than I had expected.
@@Prop74 Damn that’s awesome, I’m really curious what mine makes now.
@@Prop74how did the dyno go with the smaller pulley? Stock motor?
I learnt a stack from this video. Thanks Greg.
Miata dad coming in with the facts as always 👌 love the nerdy details you always provide. That throttle response is insane 😎😎
Always inspiring Greg! The main thing I learned about this is how easy it is to tune and how it’s almost a set-it-and-forget-it type of boosted application. Seems very low maintenance.
Great vid!!!! I was def thinking of going this route and we'll, you just might have topped the scales. Haha
Thanks for answering my question. I also shared your video on my Instagram.
The BOV sounds quite different compared to a turbo setup. More a fan of the closed setup.
We need Dragy numbers! 😜
Hey, I’m appreciate you teaching us how all these things work for free of charge. I’m not financially stable to go to work/learn for something I’m passionate about and you make my dream come true. I appreciate it. You’ve earned my sub and notification
I love this build!❤
Heat management on track is just as bad as a turbo track car. I had to do every off the shelf cooling mod to mine. I could get 2-3 laps on a 2.0 mile track before needing a cool down lap, on a hot 90+ day. That was 10 years ago, after just slapping on the c30-74 kit on an otherwise stock miata. Now with the c30-94 and a built motor, all the cooling mods are still doing the job well.
Wow. Thanks for this. Super informative! That throttle response is hilarious!!! 😂😂 yep, because rotrex is always on boost all the system has to do is close the gate and you have max flow at that rpm.
I definitely preferred the recirculated dump way more than open dump
Great video as usual. I still prefer the Powerdyne set up I currently run on my 1998 NB. However, I picked up another 1998 NB for $450, they are cheap here in the UK, and might pop the Rotrex I have on my shelf into that one, this video has helped convince me.
I would like to add that: 1. Turbos ALSO add parasitic drag on engines... & 2. The linear\ascending torque curve of CFSCs saves gas at low RPM(where - unless you're towing - high amounts of torque isn't necessary)... LOVE this project!!! 🙂 P.S. Whilst watching this video, the idea, to use the Blow Off of the SC(in this case)to move air across a radiator & or intercooler to aid cooling came to me...🤔
15:06 so what you're saying is that you should install both a centrifugal and a twin scroll supercharger for low end torque and top end power. Noted
Now you're talking
Some Detroit diesels had roots blowers & turbos at the same time specifically for that reason!
@@williamzoom Weren't some Detroit Diesels supercharged simply because they couldn't run without one? Crazy engines haha
@@TheCarPassionChannel They are unifold engines so the supercharger was needed. Twincharging has been tried by a lot of companies in racing & oem I think VW & Volvo both have engines with them.
I have 3 twincharge cars. It’s also for what characteristics I like in cars
I couldn't quite tell in your video the height of your oil reservoir in relation to the oil inlet and outlet banjo fittings on your Rotrex. From what I have been told, the Rotrex oil cooler and reservoir need to be below the banjo fittings. Great video and very informative. I have a Rotrex on my RB25de NEO and it made it come alive!
Where you start to blow out rods is high torque. So for stock form for high power this set up is really good for reliability.
I love that your trying all the different power mods on these.. So can you please make a Honda J swaap video... pls.
really nice results! Next time, see if you can use a Miata dipstick to hold the mic Bob Barker style. …without breaking it.😅
Put the same TDR setup on my ‘02 Miata. I removed my driver’s side fog light to send more air to the oil cooler. There was no one within 150 miles who tuned MegaSquirt in my area, so I went with the TDR Fuel/Timing cards, essentially a piggyback.. I dont recommend it. It runs much too rich when putting around town and fouls plugs left and right. At least, that was my experience. Definitely go for the standalone computer if you have the ability to properly tune it.
Super educational and creative as always! Won't be able to see a turbine again without angry eyes..
Linear boost is a cool part of a supercharger. No boost spikes, creep etc like with a turbo. You want to adjust boost? change the pulley size.. though after a certain point the air it spins heats beyond the intercooler and causes it to not gain as much (diminishing returns) and belt slip.. COG belts are best. But, like with everything, how do you want to tilt the curve at 5252? Torque or hp? Perfect world you'd want both. Hence what Volvo did with twin charging. Turbo for higher RPM hp and roots for Low end torque.
Cogged belts are actually terrible in a Rotrex application. Most of the broken units were because of cog setup and zero slip for the unit to deal with the shock when hitting the engine limiter. It's the kit manufacturers that spec cog setups, Rotrex only offers ribbed belt pulley's.
That wrench! 🤣 Love it!
@18:45
I believe the TDR kit uses fuel/timing cards. You don't need to tune it if you don't want to. Another factor that makes it much more simple.
If you genuinely think those cards are simpler then you're mistaken. They're ancient ass tech that works half the time, is super finicky and unreliable. Also there's wiring involved, it's not plug and play. Some of them come with adjustments too, and it's not like the instructions are good enough to tell you how to tune them either.
You'll struggle to find people that knows about them or even want to touch them.
Really if we're only talking about simplicity and not cost, getting a pnp ecu with a good base tune, driving it to a tuning shop, handing him money and driving away with a perfect running car definitely is simpler.
Power cards are simply cheaper, nothing more.
I was kinda thinking the same thing about the cards, but then I saw a Megasquirt install video. It's not difficult and adds so much flexibility. I'm definitely going with an MS ECU
@@imnota You can get the pnp versions of the power cards too, just like a PNP ECU.
I'm sure MSPNP is better but the kit is already 5500USD... the flyin miata turbo kit is 4000USD. The difference between them in cost is already the same as an ECU + dyno session + tune.
@@Grumpini Wether it's trackdogracing, jackson racing, Moss, or flyin miata all I see is power cards with flying leads you gotta wire in. But anyways even if they had a plug in version they're still hacky way to get around the stock ecu...
@@imnota TDR has the pnp on their website... dunno what else to say
Damn good content!
i do not have a miata, but if im not mistaken rotrex makes a kit for my car, lol you will probably laugh but its a stock 2007 honda fit. thank you for all the info and answering these questions you are appreciated.
The man says "his 2 cents" while being a freaking bank, keep it up Greg!!
Great comparison to NA, turbo, and roots SC. Can't say I've ever seen someone give such a good comparo, regardless of the car.
I would love an install vid!
I love these informational videos. Keep ‘em coming! Also are you attending the Miata reunion at Sonoma?
Most likely yes
@@TheCarPassionChannel awesome! Hope to see you there.
Amazing breakdown of rotrex supercharger option! Just wish it was smog legal for us here in ca...
Great video as usual , I'm just going to keep my cars stock😂
Whats next? I would love to see a NC or ND, that or something beyond the miata? Would love to see you try out new things!
Love the allergy medication background bro! 💪😏 Is that Claritin?
I was always interested in the max power output of stock engines. I think it's really interesting the see what each engine can handle on stock internals. And especially as a low budget guy i can appreciate an engine that can make power without expensive mods.
Personally i'm a SAAB guy and there is one dude who made 666 horsepower on a stock 2 liter engine back in 2009.
There used to be a web page with all the details but has since been lost. Fortunately waybackmachine archived the post and has all the dyno charts and most of the pictures of the engine assembly.
Those are phenomenal numbers tbh, like right on par with a 2554 or 2560 and most your heat is managed with the external cooler and res vs. The turbo setup pumping it back into the sump and creating a large buildup of heat right next to the motor/brakes.
Maybe my next miata goes SC lol
Definitely on par with the peak power of a healthy 2554/2560 setup. Nowhere near the amount of power at 3000 - 5500 though
Yaasss!!!... Dad's back, & he has stories how to best My NB...Rotrex in My future 🤔
We've been waiting for this video! Our rotrex is famous! Really happy to see it live on with you! We're excited to see you enjoy it as much as we did!
Segment around 14:00
Super appreciate the perspective. For me, I'm all about daily driving and I've never been a fan of screamy, high-revving engines. Sure, it's fun when you bash around a track, but for daily driving, I'm almost never over 5k, unless I'm blasting off onto a freeway or something.
So for me, the choice of a roots was WAY outweighing the rotrex. Rotrex/Turbo undoubtedly is the king of horsepower and king of high rev power. I'm just no that kind of driver though.
We missed you
I've got a supercharged nc and i can confirm one of the best decisions ive ever made
The Flyin Miata guys say these are less reliable than the turbo setups but honestly I really love linear power instant response and that sound. If i ever do a forced induction kit I think I need to experience a supercharger.
Daddy's back baby!
Very nice vid! Thanks!
Btw you can tune the rev limiter in ME so that it's more gentle and spread over wider rpm range. so let's say instead of cutting power hard at 7500 it can do it gradually from 7k to 7.5k disabling more cylinders and cycles. Feels much nicer too. You can get it to almost where it seems that you lost power instead of bouncing :)
Yep that's exactly how I have it set up right now, soft limiter starts at 7200, hard limiter at 7500. Works perfect!
@@TheCarPassionChannel Ok nice! I have m62 and doing auto slalom which is basically very tight autocross, where I only use first gear and have to often hold it at the limiter as it doesn't make sense to switch to second for a split second. So this soft limiter really helped and doesn't feel like raping the engine :D
@@Domas64 I used to run AX all the time so I know that game 😂 always choosing:
Bang limiter and hurt engine
Raise rev limit and hurt engine
Shift twice and hurt clutch
Re-gear and hurt torque
Build high RPM engine and hurt wallet
Shattered oil pump gears? Why you calling me out greg! Love the video, keep the content coming!
Greg, one thing to note with a metal intake like that is that it conducts heat a lot better than the silicone/ plastic one that was in there before. Granted that intake is close to the exhaust I don’t know if that’s the best option
The exhaust header blanket he installed should help a lot with that, but I agree that it is something to look at. Adding an intake air temp sensor could reveal if its an actual issue. Maybe this is an opportunity to try some of that fancy gold reflective tape!
Very weel sound !!!
I would like this in futur whit m'y progressif nitrous system.
Whyyyy do you do this to me, ive just bought all turboparts for my nb, and now ill have to go rotrex too! Looks so nice and easy to install!
That tensioner is looking pretty weak, it shouldn't be bouncing. LOVE YOUR VIDS!!!
Love rotrex superchargers. The Koenigsegg ccx uses 2 of em. I want to do a v8, 10, or 12 with twin c32-94s.
Same
One question I haven't seen: how is fuel mileage compared to NA/Turbo? Seems like that Rotrex is sapping lots of energy even when not pushing it.
Same if not better than stock mpg, prob because of having a custom tune. If I wanted, I could get low 30mpg trips. I remember high 20's stock but never above 30. That was with my c30-74. I no longer worry about mpgs with my now fully built motor and c30-94.
@dicedicerice69 That makes fuck all sense. If it was a very efficient turbo, maybe, but a supercharger hell no
@@Clooger- believe whatever you want. That was back when I calculated mpg every single fill up. But to be clear, I was talking about pure highway mpg. I was blown away when I got 30+ mpg coming home from the dyno, it was a 2+ hour trip. Obviously day to day was worse mpg because I made use of the extra power often. But if someone is asking cuz they daily their Miata to work often, they probably won't notice a drop in mpg, assuming they drive like a normal commuter.
@@Clooger- Highly depends on how you drive. More throttle means more fuel. If you compare the exact same boring "grandpa" driving, the boosted car CAN get better milage. You'll be able to shift a bit earlier since you can make more power at lower RPM's, and which is more efficient. Recall that LS1 F-bodies used skip-shift where it lugs thru 4th after 1st - it was a more efficient way to meet emissions & MPG requirements. It's getting near WOT while lugging, which reduces pumping losses & ups MPG's.
@@dicedicerice69 What power are you getting from that fully built motor (specs on the build please?) and the C30-94? - I ask because I am in the process of this myself with a C30-94. Any other info on your build would be appreciated, cheers!
I want that car, it looks like a fun track car 😊
I love this channel and the info that you give us :)
Car looks great! I am near the end of my TDR install. What are the sizes for the turbosmart bypass valve and what we’re your concerns with the one provided by TDR?
Hey man, so, I’m a 370Z owner with a C38R Rotrex kit making over 550whp on 93oct. Just fyi, you can actually control boost on the Rotrex supercharger. I just don’t know if Miata’s have the tuning capability for it. I assume they would. But… I use ECUTek on the 370Z. Just need a mac solenoid and connect the vacuum/boost reference to an open side of the EcuTek and you can use the BOV as a boost control. So it’ll bleed off excess boost pressure when boost goes above target boost. It’s kind of wild.
very cool video grog, but when does the NB get a Maruha stroker kit?
best weird mic handle I've seen
fk yeah new car passion video!
17:18 This is the point that I feel a lot of people are missing. And I'm not saying turbo is better than superchargers, but sometimes people don't fully understand the difference.
My ND2 needs one.
The feature film is here 🍿🍿
Love that spoiler, where did you get it? ❤
I originally wanted to turbo a Miata, but considering the Flyin Miata kit I want has been out of stock every time I've pulled up their site and the throttle response advantage of a supercharger setup, I'm starting to lean towards a centrifugal supercharger
I have a fully built BP, can’t decide if I want supercharger or turbo yet, it’s a track build
this TDR kit is dope but idk, i really like the sound of a Whipple. However my ultimate goal is a J series V6. with a sprinkle of supercharger. 😅
Great. now i want to nitrous my 250cc single cylinder motorcycle.
Any day that Greck uploads is a good day.
Very intresting video, can you please tell me about the cover on your dash to stop that annoying sun glare you get that reflects on the windscreen :)
Trackdog has an incredibly good install manual
U intrigued me from my slumber 😂
Makes me want to get mine out of storage.
lol at you having to use MLV to look at your me442 log.. oh I've been there too often.
They do seem really ideal, but the main question Instill have is how long do the charger units last. I have heard such conflicting reports and nothing definitive.
With the cost of them you would want to get it right. Sounds like managing the air flow would be really important esp on track. Do they typically come with some way of monitoring the gearbox oil temp?