7:58 there was a great clip from a french talk show where Dora Moutot was discussing her (and Marguerite Stern's) new book _Transmania_ - a TIM called in talking about how he knew he was a girl from 4 or 5 years old… she asked him what does it mean to "feel like a woman" and he said "well that, I can't really explain it." 😂
Really insightful and interesting conversation. Bullying from boys and from girls are different, but both can be incredibly painful, especially for kids 💔
29:54 I agree so much! Before my detransition I told a friend that i felt good about my transition because "it feels like ripping out all the old pages in a notebook and starting new" I wanted to destroy my old self and become this new person. It took me experiencing ego death to accept myself and realize how unhealthy and sad that mentality was
Relate too deeply 2 michelle talking about identifying as a trans gay man. For the longest time I was a "t4t gay trans guy" and looking back I was literally just a butch woman who liked other butch women. It is crazy the labels we'll align ourselves with to avoid the word "lesbian".
I feel so seen by what Michelle said about growing up with a circle of friends who were same sex attracted and being completely fine and supportive of them. But not being able to give yourself the same grace.
Fabulous - Ritchie read my mind - you need to do this again and again and maybe with live Q&A stuff - that would be brilliant! So many great topics covered - on a point re girls and women being more accepting of gay men versus men of gay women - I think it is that women don't see gay men as a threat and see them in many respects as "one of the girls" I don't mean in the gender way - just in interests, whereas they may have less in common with other male peers and there is always the underlying (do they fancy me - do I fancy them) ..anyway a lot to mull over and chat about - Thanks again - Take care all xx
The "cure" isn't even just that you get to become someone else, but it's also that "society owes it to you to make up the difference." They promise you affirmation, and what disenfranchised, struggling person isn't going to pick that up and run with it? Leave your old mundane self behind for this new form that is going to be owed the world for simply existing? Sign me up lol But life isn't like that. People don't owe you affirmation. The trans community, if there are any real ones, are going to have to accept that. Much as I appreciate him, not even Buck Angel seems to get that considering one or two things he says.
@@4651adri I mean, I get it, but I'm still perfectly willing to coexist with transmen and transwomen, so I'm still willing to use gendered pronouns for them when I trust them. I don't think Buck would ever cross a line with someone, so he has my respect. Doesn't mean that I don't still see him as a very masculinized female, but I'm willing to go along with some platonic pronoun usage.
Our identities have always been negotiated with society. They have forgotten that, it's not something you can pick and then impose on others to affirm.
@@littleboots9800 Exactly. Men and women do not "identify" as such. Men and women are naturally recognized, and that is based on our sexual dimorphism with a tinge of cultural influence. Socially, transitioning can give you a taste of that, but that's only incidental of a convincing transition because they're being mistaken for something they are not. And, of course, when you can tell they are different, they want you to keep going along with it because they think they're entitled to that.
Looking back, my transition was me wanting to get rid of the person that I felt was always treated badly by others. As much of that poor treatment was rooted in early life sexist attitudes and homophobia, transitioning fit the Born This Way narrative for me. I’m still going through this now that I’ve detransitioned because the pressure to be feminine and act submissive and pretty is so superficial and fake. It’s also really limiting because people will judge absolutely everything about you because of your perceived personality. We’re all more than our outside appearance and people who subscribe to gender identity ideology struggle to understand that. They’re the biggest believers in gender stereotypes. 36:00 I agree that detransitioning at first felt like kelling myself again. It felt like kelling off a part that I had held close inside of my heart that I loved more than myself. The son I knew my mother desperately wanted instead of a daughter. Especially a daughter who, trying to be the son my mother wanted, made herself more masculine to gain love and affection only for it to backfire because if I was going to be a girl, then I better do it properly and be the most beautiful, successful, heterosexual one I could be. In adulthood I broke up with my girlfriend, married a man, had children and became a tradwife who dressed like a sexy earth mother. Knowing I was dressing and acting exactly like the women I’m attracted to made me feel disgusting because I was also attracting friends like myself and I felt like I was lying because I had to pretend I only saw them platonically. It drove me sew-icidal. I went on extremely high antidepressants that made me high. I went off them once I realised that were addictive. Less than a few months later a friend told me she was transitioning and I explained I’d always admitted to being androgynous but I really felt like I was meant to have been born a boy. She affirmed me and I began transitioning. She is still a trans man.
@@johannakunze3300 Carol tells it exactly like it is. I disagree a little bit from time to time because I don’t think all cross-dressing men have AGP. I know one man who lost his wife to breast cancer a couple of years ago. He’s clearly transitioning due to grief and so his children get to still have a mother. In his head at least. His children look happy so I think it’s working. It also keeps the women looking to move in on the wife’s territory away because he’s not looking interested in women anymore. I doubt he’s asked himself if there could be trauma underneath the cross-dressing, but there clearly is for women so it’s worth considering for men too.
I agree that the AGP/HSTS distinction is not as useful in the post-internet world. There is definitely a cohort which is made up of the terminally-online social outcasts. Great convo as usual ❤
I always find your videos to be awesome group therapy even though I never trans'd. But I had csa from family members and so had many common issues, including identity issues, changing my name, wearing mens clothes, of course all the mental health, eating disorders etc. But that was 1970's and 80's. If now, I would have been caught up in this easily.
I really enjoy your videos, since discovering you. This was a fascinating discussion. I have a couple of comments/questions. First, how did it feel after your de-transition, to realize that people around you were actually lying to you while you were the opposite gender? For example, affirming you as a man or woman. If it was me, that would hurt real deep, especially if it was a close friend, partner or family member. Lastly, the mentioning about Gold Star Lesbians, I am one. I have been for over 40+ years. I'm proud of that fact, just like I'm a proud non-conforming, butch woman. I don't wear it on my shirt or put it on my email, but it is part of who I am. I never found males attractive and I found them rather disgusting. I don't care if someone is straight, bisexual or gay. I don't care if someone came out later in life to finally free themselves of the oppression. There are many women like me and we shouldn't be shamed to call ourselves Gold Star Lesbians, because we didn't sleep with some male in our past before calling ourselves a lesbian. I knew this was my sexual orientation at a young age when it wasn't celebrated like it is today.
I don’t believe there was any shaming. I personally don’t really care either way. Women have lots of different paths and life experiences that they have to go through. I don’t judge any lesbians path. But why I have seen lately in online spaces is this line that you can’t be a lesbian if you ever had sex with a man. And that is harmful to lesbians and false, and I will call that nonsense out.
Probably popularized by it then, at least. I reserve the right to make jokes about being platinum gay still though ~ but only when it's appropriate for the audience and occasion.
Gore Vidal said (paraphrasing) there are no heterosexual or homosexual people. Just heterosexual and homosexual acts. It seems a far healthier perspective as it does not require making your sexual orientation into your identity.
I dont think that is accurate enough. There are those who are only sexually attracted to one sex or the other. This does not mean they will not engage in homosexual or heterosexual acts. And I think that matters.
I mean... you ended up with body modification because you have not had the fortune to come into contact with decent therapy. They are professionals, not paid friends. There is quite some arrogance in some of the views on therapy here!
No, we got hear because the treatment policy for gender dysphoria is body modification. This is the policy of APA and the medical community. Therapist are trained to affirm.
I think this is a bit rich! They are not alone in their view of therapy - having researched and studied psychology - a lot of it is absolute unhelpful iatrogenic BS - the mental health business is a booming industry because they have labelled and pathologized human behaviours. Therapy is also a massive failure for a lot of men who find talking therapy unsuitable - have you done any reading on men's mental health and why their suicide rates are much higher and why they don't engage with traditional therapy - never thought it might be that therapy is just a business model??
@@ShortandSweetJenNCharlie I agree a lot of people, I guess mostly males, don't find talk therapy helpful at all. I'm a woman (no gender issues btw) but I could never connect with my female friends on that level as I've never found talking as something liberating, therapeutic nor cathartic. I guess that's a stereotypically masculine trait I have. I wonder if there are alternatives for people who don't find this method helpful in any way...
7:58 there was a great clip from a french talk show where Dora Moutot was discussing her (and Marguerite Stern's) new book _Transmania_ - a TIM called in talking about how he knew he was a girl from 4 or 5 years old… she asked him what does it mean to "feel like a woman" and he said "well that, I can't really explain it." 😂
Really insightful and interesting conversation. Bullying from boys and from girls are different, but both can be incredibly painful, especially for kids 💔
29:54 I agree so much! Before my detransition I told a friend that i felt good about my transition because "it feels like ripping out all the old pages in a notebook and starting new" I wanted to destroy my old self and become this new person. It took me experiencing ego death to accept myself and realize how unhealthy and sad that mentality was
Not sure if your ego death was induced by substances, but i think psychedelics might help a lot of people. Powerful stuff tho - gotta be careful.
Fantastic host and guests! I really enjoyed your interview with Michelle and her blog article you discussed. Keep up the great work Carol 👏
Relate too deeply 2 michelle talking about identifying as a trans gay man. For the longest time I was a "t4t gay trans guy" and looking back I was literally just a butch woman who liked other butch women. It is crazy the labels we'll align ourselves with to avoid the word "lesbian".
just curious, is it because you thought gay men are more socially acceptable than butch lesbians?
Excellent discussion! "Suicide w/extra steps."
I feel so seen by what Michelle said about growing up with a circle of friends who were same sex attracted and being completely fine and supportive of them. But not being able to give yourself the same grace.
Fabulous - Ritchie read my mind - you need to do this again and again and maybe with live Q&A stuff - that would be brilliant! So many great topics covered - on a point re girls and women being more accepting of gay men versus men of gay women - I think it is that women don't see gay men as a threat and see them in many respects as "one of the girls" I don't mean in the gender way - just in interests, whereas they may have less in common with other male peers and there is always the underlying (do they fancy me - do I fancy them) ..anyway a lot to mull over and chat about - Thanks again - Take care all xx
The "cure" isn't even just that you get to become someone else, but it's also that "society owes it to you to make up the difference." They promise you affirmation, and what disenfranchised, struggling person isn't going to pick that up and run with it? Leave your old mundane self behind for this new form that is going to be owed the world for simply existing? Sign me up lol
But life isn't like that. People don't owe you affirmation. The trans community, if there are any real ones, are going to have to accept that. Much as I appreciate him, not even Buck Angel seems to get that considering one or two things he says.
She* I'm that annoying person, sorry😅
@@4651adri I mean, I get it, but I'm still perfectly willing to coexist with transmen and transwomen, so I'm still willing to use gendered pronouns for them when I trust them. I don't think Buck would ever cross a line with someone, so he has my respect. Doesn't mean that I don't still see him as a very masculinized female, but I'm willing to go along with some platonic pronoun usage.
Our identities have always been negotiated with society. They have forgotten that, it's not something you can pick and then impose on others to affirm.
@@littleboots9800 Exactly. Men and women do not "identify" as such. Men and women are naturally recognized, and that is based on our sexual dimorphism with a tinge of cultural influence. Socially, transitioning can give you a taste of that, but that's only incidental of a convincing transition because they're being mistaken for something they are not.
And, of course, when you can tell they are different, they want you to keep going along with it because they think they're entitled to that.
Looking back, my transition was me wanting to get rid of the person that I felt was always treated badly by others. As much of that poor treatment was rooted in early life sexist attitudes and homophobia, transitioning fit the Born This Way narrative for me.
I’m still going through this now that I’ve detransitioned because the pressure to be feminine and act submissive and pretty is so superficial and fake. It’s also really limiting because people will judge absolutely everything about you because of your perceived personality. We’re all more than our outside appearance and people who subscribe to gender identity ideology struggle to understand that. They’re the biggest believers in gender stereotypes.
36:00 I agree that detransitioning at first felt like kelling myself again. It felt like kelling off a part that I had held close inside of my heart that I loved more than myself. The son I knew my mother desperately wanted instead of a daughter. Especially a daughter who, trying to be the son my mother wanted, made herself more masculine to gain love and affection only for it to backfire because if I was going to be a girl, then I better do it properly and be the most beautiful, successful, heterosexual one I could be. In adulthood I broke up with my girlfriend, married a man, had children and became a tradwife who dressed like a sexy earth mother. Knowing I was dressing and acting exactly like the women I’m attracted to made me feel disgusting because I was also attracting friends like myself and I felt like I was lying because I had to pretend I only saw them platonically. It drove me sew-icidal. I went on extremely high antidepressants that made me high. I went off them once I realised that were addictive. Less than a few months later a friend told me she was transitioning and I explained I’d always admitted to being androgynous but I really felt like I was meant to have been born a boy. She affirmed me and I began transitioning. She is still a trans man.
Hope you find away feel good with yourself.
Carol is a very good role model for a woman not confirming to stereotypes I feel.:)
@@johannakunze3300 Carol tells it exactly like it is. I disagree a little bit from time to time because I don’t think all cross-dressing men have AGP. I know one man who lost his wife to breast cancer a couple of years ago. He’s clearly transitioning due to grief and so his children get to still have a mother. In his head at least. His children look happy so I think it’s working. It also keeps the women looking to move in on the wife’s territory away because he’s not looking interested in women anymore. I doubt he’s asked himself if there could be trauma underneath the cross-dressing, but there clearly is for women so it’s worth considering for men too.
I agree that the AGP/HSTS distinction is not as useful in the post-internet world. There is definitely a cohort which is made up of the terminally-online social outcasts. Great convo as usual ❤
mindblowing conversation thank you all!
A great conversion and perspectives.
I always find your videos to be awesome group therapy even though I never trans'd. But I had csa from family members and so had many common issues, including identity issues, changing my name, wearing mens clothes, of course all the mental health, eating disorders etc. But that was 1970's and 80's. If now, I would have been caught up in this easily.
Best guests! (And host) ♡
I like Ritchie!
Great vid, interesting. Thanks
The concept of a “dead name” has always bothered me. As RItchie said “Suicide with extra steps”
Never realized this.🤦
I really enjoy your videos, since discovering you. This was a fascinating discussion. I have a couple of comments/questions. First, how did it feel after your de-transition, to realize that people around you were actually lying to you while you were the opposite gender? For example, affirming you as a man or woman. If it was me, that would hurt real deep, especially if it was a close friend, partner or family member. Lastly, the mentioning about Gold Star Lesbians, I am one. I have been for over 40+ years. I'm proud of that fact, just like I'm a proud non-conforming, butch woman. I don't wear it on my shirt or put it on my email, but it is part of who I am. I never found males attractive and I found them rather disgusting. I don't care if someone is straight, bisexual or gay. I don't care if someone came out later in life to finally free themselves of the oppression. There are many women like me and we shouldn't be shamed to call ourselves Gold Star Lesbians, because we didn't sleep with some male in our past before calling ourselves a lesbian. I knew this was my sexual orientation at a young age when it wasn't celebrated like it is today.
I don’t believe there was any shaming. I personally don’t really care either way. Women have lots of different paths and life experiences that they have to go through. I don’t judge any lesbians path.
But why I have seen lately in online spaces is this line that you can’t be a lesbian if you ever had sex with a man. And that is harmful to lesbians and false, and I will call that nonsense out.
1:05:11 _Elder Millenial_ was also the name of some American lady comedian's stand-up special.
Yay! Know this'll be great.
2:32 I'd say it's coded "Buddhist Nun"
Lol
55:31 Carol spitting facts
Gendered expectations really mess with people.
You should only go to therapy if you feel you need it. No feel, no go. Simple.
Apostates R! Mateys!
gold star came from the original "L Word"
No, it was around before then.
Probably popularized by it then, at least.
I reserve the right to make jokes about being platinum gay still though ~ but only when it's appropriate for the audience and occasion.
50:41 Corinna Cohn was on Tumblr, too! Publishing essay there,, very chick-coded behavior!
Gore Vidal said (paraphrasing) there are no heterosexual or homosexual people. Just heterosexual and homosexual acts. It seems a far healthier perspective as it does not require making your sexual orientation into your identity.
I dont think that is accurate enough. There are those who are only sexually attracted to one sex or the other. This does not mean they will not engage in homosexual or heterosexual acts. And I think that matters.
I mean... you ended up with body modification because you have not had the fortune to come into contact with decent therapy. They are professionals, not paid friends. There is quite some arrogance in some of the views on therapy here!
No, we got hear because the treatment policy for gender dysphoria is body modification. This is the policy of APA and the medical community. Therapist are trained to affirm.
I think this is a bit rich! They are not alone in their view of therapy - having researched and studied psychology - a lot of it is absolute unhelpful iatrogenic BS - the mental health business is a booming industry because they have labelled and pathologized human behaviours. Therapy is also a massive failure for a lot of men who find talking therapy unsuitable - have you done any reading on men's mental health and why their suicide rates are much higher and why they don't engage with traditional therapy - never thought it might be that therapy is just a business model??
@@ShortandSweetJenNCharlie I agree a lot of people, I guess mostly males, don't find talk therapy helpful at all. I'm a woman (no gender issues btw) but I could never connect with my female friends on that level as I've never found talking as something liberating, therapeutic nor cathartic. I guess that's a stereotypically masculine trait I have. I wonder if there are alternatives for people who don't find this method helpful in any way...
Have you heard any of Abigail Shrier recent podcast appearances?
@@miroirs-jumeaux I haven’t, I don’t care for her tbh.