I came to Classic Dune, from Conquest. I feel like the Harkonnen was much better designed there, and thought they should be able to cycle their traitors, rather than getting more from the treachery deck. I played the Fremen, and after nuking the harkonnen troops turn 1, with a shield/las combo, they weren't able to win another fight during the entire game. All the leaders they drew were the 1/2 power leaders, and Jessica from the BG, which was countered with a truth card.
Alright here we go! The theme behind Harkonnen is what made me buy the game! Let me surprise you with a little fact about myself: I got to know Dune after having seen the video of SUSD reviewing Dune 2019 and I loved it!! I immediately bought the game and loved the theme, besides the gameplay obviously. Then my ex got me the book - which I loved - then saw the film hehe. Harkonnen is such a dreadful faction that you do not wanna fight them early on and the Harkonnen player must capitalise on this..! The fear of getting a leader captured is huuuge! This advanced rule is craaaazy when you play with a lower player count. They could definitely go for an early win. I do also play with the Mulligan unspoken rule but I also thought of increasing a tad bit their power and also reduce the RNG with the traitor cards. I’ve always thought that it was quite unfair (and I’d like your opinion on this Jack) that one player might be very lucky by drawing 3 leaders of his faction and another one from someone else… huge advantage imo and very luck dependent. What I’ve tried to introduce in my group is basically a traitor draw à la Tleilaxu! Other players pick their traitor and return the rest to the deck, then Harkonnen gets his 4 traitors! Makes them even scarier and remove the luck of the draw! I’d love to hear opinions on this. Cheers again Jack! Always love to see one of your Dune video up! Hehe
@@jackredathewarp wait, I just read the rules of Dune conquest and… the rule for the traitors in the game is basically what I described.. or I’m reading it completely wrong? Cause your comment doesn’t match what I read, I believe
@@totoboxbox It’s a couple of things in DC, one being you after every one returns their unselecteds but the other is drawing extra and then choosing. And of course they can draw again each battle.
@@jackredathewarp I see! I guess that makes me wanna try DC to see how it plays out! I don’t know if you’re at liberty to say but would you have liked to adapt the rules of Dune 2019 after having designed the rules of Dune Conquest?
Hey Jack, this might be a silly question, but when the Harkonnen kills a leader with leader capture and puts them face down in the tanks, is the knowledge of which leader it was secret or is it being face down purely for revival purposes?
I find Harkonnen to be massively different in power level with basic vs advanced. In advance and spice combat, they are much weaker and I don't really know what to do with them. My go to strategy t1 is to try to buy 2 treachery cards costing 7-8 spice and then go for a spice blow. I find if you fail getting that spice blow t1 you are doomed. I don't really know how to play them in advanced. Sit back and wait until you get a Karama with your op hand swap ability? Go with reckless abandon and hope you can traitor someone to pull out ahead? I find most of the time Atredies has a advantage against you in a 1v1 fight but if you can get Emperor to go aggressive on him to that can be relieving. Its much easier to stop you when you are strong than a Atriedes that's strong. The last thing you and the Emperor want is a A/B to happen with a full hands. You definitely need a economy ally to keep you afloat. The biggest mistake I see Harkonnens make is they are too aggressive early and get wiped out. You need to be careful of this since your house doesn't have any comeback mechanics, but you also cant dilly dally either letting everyone get stronger than you. I feel like in order to win with Harkonnen you need simply get lucky, as well as really good diplomacy. Anyways would like your thoughts since I do struggle with them. Primarily with advanced, spice combat.
I always found it unfair, that Harkonnen does not scale well with player count. So I made a house rule, that Harkonnen gets as many traitors as there are players. Plus they can exchange 1 unrevealed leader each round to adjust a little with the ally they get bc this is a very real weakness too, that they are so determined by their traitors otherwise. This houserule needs a bit more playtesting but everyone liked it so far, since Harkonnen *feels* too weak with the standard rules. (We are always playing advanced)
PS: The mulligan rule is a bit sketchy imho, because then you could abuse it theoretically to Mulligan any number of times. Obviously it is not an option to reveal the traitors gou drew, so I am not exactly a fan.
@@Guyinkgo to combat this, deal the 4 traitor cards to the harkonnen first, then let them decide if they want to mulligan. If they mulligan, have them reveal the cards they initially drew, and shuffle them back into the traitor deck. After the harkonnen have their traitor cards, deal the rest to the other factions and let the game go on as usual.
I prefer advanced, it´s not the spice the Harkonnen are after. They are after fights they are going to win.The spice is just an added bonus. When you kill leaders you get spice for them. There´s is definitely a balance to be struck to hold on to Carthag, it reach is what makes you feel out soft targets. Don´t forget that spice blows can be targeted by worms and destroy your forces. A fight without a spice blow is a safe fight.
@@linkypete The way we do it is everyone is dealt their 4 traitors. If the Harkonnen get 2 or more of their own leaders they can call for a single re-deal but every player (including them) has to keep 1 of the leaders they were originally dealt. Everyone hands in their remaining 3 traitor cards, the traitor deck is then reshuffled (minus the one card each player selected) and then 3 new traitor cards are dealt to each player. This dealing is final so if the Harkonnen gets dealt a hand worse than their original one, it’s on them.
I hate Harkonnen design in this game. Always keep them out. Add so much randomness in such a good strategy game. It's a shame. I know it's thematic but it's not fun.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I came to Classic Dune, from Conquest. I feel like the Harkonnen was much better designed there, and thought they should be able to cycle their traitors, rather than getting more from the treachery deck. I played the Fremen, and after nuking the harkonnen troops turn 1, with a shield/las combo, they weren't able to win another fight during the entire game. All the leaders they drew were the 1/2 power leaders, and Jessica from the BG, which was countered with a truth card.
Alright here we go!
The theme behind Harkonnen is what made me buy the game! Let me surprise you with a little fact about myself: I got to know Dune after having seen the video of SUSD reviewing Dune 2019 and I loved it!! I immediately bought the game and loved the theme, besides the gameplay obviously. Then my ex got me the book - which I loved - then saw the film hehe.
Harkonnen is such a dreadful faction that you do not wanna fight them early on and the Harkonnen player must capitalise on this..! The fear of getting a leader captured is huuuge! This advanced rule is craaaazy when you play with a lower player count. They could definitely go for an early win.
I do also play with the Mulligan unspoken rule but I also thought of increasing a tad bit their power and also reduce the RNG with the traitor cards. I’ve always thought that it was quite unfair (and I’d like your opinion on this Jack) that one player might be very lucky by drawing 3 leaders of his faction and another one from someone else… huge advantage imo and very luck dependent.
What I’ve tried to introduce in my group is basically a traitor draw à la Tleilaxu! Other players pick their traitor and return the rest to the deck, then Harkonnen gets his 4 traitors!
Makes them even scarier and remove the luck of the draw!
I’d love to hear opinions on this.
Cheers again Jack! Always love to see one of your Dune video up! Hehe
I like the approach we used in Dune Conquest where Harkonnen draws extra traitors and keeps 4 of their choice.
@@jackredathewarp wait, I just read the rules of Dune conquest and… the rule for the traitors in the game is basically what I described.. or I’m reading it completely wrong? Cause your comment doesn’t match what I read, I believe
@@totoboxbox It’s a couple of things in DC, one being you after every one returns their unselecteds but the other is drawing extra and then choosing. And of course they can draw again each battle.
@@jackredathewarp I see! I guess that makes me wanna try DC to see how it plays out!
I don’t know if you’re at liberty to say but would you have liked to adapt the rules of Dune 2019 after having designed the rules of Dune Conquest?
@@totoboxbox I have a TTS mod for classic Dune that adjusts a few minor things. It’s called Dune Abomination, and will be released next year.
Are you planning on doing the last faction soon? I've been anticipating the Bene Gesserit!
As soon as I get the OG designers to settle on the latest faq update. Outstanding BG issue must needs be resolved first
Hey Jack, this might be a silly question, but when the Harkonnen kills a leader with leader capture and puts them face down in the tanks, is the knowledge of which leader it was secret or is it being face down purely for revival purposes?
@@TheC0MMAND0 both. Harkonnen and the leader’s faction can say who it is, but there are reasons both wouldn’t want to.
@@jackredathewarp Thank you!
Which is the correct timing to play Harkonnen Karama power, any time or only during bidding phase?
The original designers have decreed that Bidding phase is the time.
I find Harkonnen to be massively different in power level with basic vs advanced. In advance and spice combat, they are much weaker and I don't really know what to do with them. My go to strategy t1 is to try to buy 2 treachery cards costing 7-8 spice and then go for a spice blow. I find if you fail getting that spice blow t1 you are doomed. I don't really know how to play them in advanced. Sit back and wait until you get a Karama with your op hand swap ability? Go with reckless abandon and hope you can traitor someone to pull out ahead? I find most of the time Atredies has a advantage against you in a 1v1 fight but if you can get Emperor to go aggressive on him to that can be relieving. Its much easier to stop you when you are strong than a Atriedes that's strong. The last thing you and the Emperor want is a A/B to happen with a full hands. You definitely need a economy ally to keep you afloat. The biggest mistake I see Harkonnens make is they are too aggressive early and get wiped out. You need to be careful of this since your house doesn't have any comeback mechanics, but you also cant dilly dally either letting everyone get stronger than you. I feel like in order to win with Harkonnen you need simply get lucky, as well as really good diplomacy. Anyways would like your thoughts since I do struggle with them. Primarily with advanced, spice combat.
I always found it unfair, that Harkonnen does not scale well with player count. So I made a house rule, that Harkonnen gets as many traitors as there are players. Plus they can exchange 1 unrevealed leader each round to adjust a little with the ally they get bc this is a very real weakness too, that they are so determined by their traitors otherwise. This houserule needs a bit more playtesting but everyone liked it so far, since Harkonnen *feels* too weak with the standard rules. (We are always playing advanced)
PS: The mulligan rule is a bit sketchy imho, because then you could abuse it theoretically to Mulligan any number of times. Obviously it is not an option to reveal the traitors gou drew, so I am not exactly a fan.
@@Guyinkgo to combat this, deal the 4 traitor cards to the harkonnen first, then let them decide if they want to mulligan. If they mulligan, have them reveal the cards they initially drew, and shuffle them back into the traitor deck. After the harkonnen have their traitor cards, deal the rest to the other factions and let the game go on as usual.
I prefer advanced, it´s not the spice the Harkonnen are after. They are after fights they are going to win.The spice is just an added bonus. When you kill leaders you get spice for them. There´s is definitely a balance to be struck to hold on to Carthag, it reach is what makes you feel out soft targets. Don´t forget that spice blows can be targeted by worms and destroy your forces. A fight without a spice blow is a safe fight.
@@linkypete The way we do it is everyone is dealt their 4 traitors. If the Harkonnen get 2 or more of their own leaders they can call for a single re-deal but every player (including them) has to keep 1 of the leaders they were originally dealt. Everyone hands in their remaining 3 traitor cards, the traitor deck is then reshuffled (minus the one card each player selected) and then 3 new traitor cards are dealt to each player. This dealing is final so if the Harkonnen gets dealt a hand worse than their original one, it’s on them.
What is that game above 7 Wonders? Looks very attractive.
Sagrada? Great dice game- a little abstract but well produced.
@@jackredathewarp Ah yes, thanks!
I hate Harkonnen design in this game. Always keep them out. Add so much randomness in such a good strategy game. It's a shame. I know it's thematic but it's not fun.