Can India be Successful in the LCA Tejas and AMCA I Sqn Ldr Vijainder Thakur I Aadi
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- Опубліковано 14 кві 2024
- Can India be Successful in the LCA Tejas and AMCA I Sqn Ldr Vijainder Thakur I Aadi
#lcatejas #indianairforce #amca #deftalks
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The mindset of sarkari Naukri has ruined government institutions.
I do 100 percent agree with Sqn.Ldr Thakur.HAL should know the concept of Business 4.0
India should build up a military hegemonic mindset, then only you can complete projects in time
or keep playing catch up forever.
All the best sir!! I hope Def Talks family reaches to 200K before April end!!
Congratulations for hosting Mr Thakur to discuss and analyse such an important issue.
Disclaimer. Neither I am from DRDO/ HAL, nor from IAF. Is Mr Thakur working with IAF or has retired?
1. Mr Thakur's statement that Tejas Mk 1 A got delayed by 7 years is factually incorrect. Let us look at the facts. It is 2021-22, when IAF signed an agreement with HAL for the supply of Tejas Mk1 A. Timeline was three years. Mr Thakur may please note that Tejas Mk1 A took to sky in March/April 2024. Where is delay? How HAL would have started manufacturing aircrafts when there is no agreement signed by IAF. Let us look at the international practices whethet French, American or Russian manufacturers.
Let us take the case of Rafale. For the information of Mr Thakur, Dassault started delivering Rafale three years after signing the agreement with the IAF/govt. Nobody talks about the fact that it took for 5 yrears for Dassault to supply Rafale with all the promised India specific technologies/modifications. None of the Rafale supplied in first or second year had India dpecifications technologies for which huge money was paid for. Whether, French, American, or Russians, all take atleast 3 years to start supplying aircrafts after the signing of agreements and recieving the advance money. Reason is simple. Aircraft manufacturer have to place orders for hundreads of components and LRUs with some other 2nd and 3rd tier component msnufacturers These 2nd and 3rd tier component suppliers will supply components to aircraft integrator like HAL, Dassault, MIG, or Lokheed Martin. There is a global chain if suppliers. Fir example in Tejas mk 1A, L&T suppoies wings; front fuselage by Dynamatic Technologies Ltd, centre fuselage by VEM Technologies, rear fuselage by Alpha and the tail fin and rudder are supplied by the NAL and the Tata Advanced Materials Ltd. Foreign component msnufacturer invlude Elta, Israel, Cobham, UK, Martin Baker UK and many more. It means after receiving firm agreement only a company will have final negotiations and issue orders for components through the global chain of suppliers. Nobody has a Aladdin Chirag to get supplies overnight. I wish and hope our decorated officers of the airforce understand it.
Of course, there is scope for HAL to improve. But while trying to shoot at HAL, don't shoot excellent Indian bird Tejas.
2. It is good Mr Thakur raised the issue of AESA radar. Let us lookbat the journey of Tejas. It is Tejas IOC, Tejas FOC, then comes Tejas Mk 1 A.
What was Tejas Mk 1 FOC? What was the need to have FOC etc?
It all started when late Mr Parikar was the defence minuster. IAF was not ready to accept Tejas since HAL was providing passive radar. IAF accepted Tejas, only on the condition that HAL will integrate Elta 2052 AESA radar on the Tejas. Our Israeli lobby was also happy since they got big opportunity. So Tejas came with Israeli AESA radar which was bs in the class.
Another major issue with Tejas IOC was that it did not have refueling probe. HAL signed agreement with UK firm for refueling probe. As a result Tejas FOC version got refeulling probe as well as AESA radar. Both were incorporated as per mandatory requirements of the IAF.
Then comes the Tejas Mk 1 A, three after signing the agreement. It is delivered on time, may 1-2 months dekay at the most.
3. What is the beauty of Tejas? It's beauty lies in control laws and algorithms. Control laws, algorithms, fly by wire systems are not developed by HAL These are developed by ADA.
ADA designed Tejas as an unstable platform. Why? Idea is to achieve best maneuverability. However, it is extremely difficult to control a unstable system. Algorithms and control laws are the indian brain which makes an unstable system to fly the way a pilot would love his machine to follow him. Itvwiukd have been nice had Mr Thakur spoken on some of these aspects also.
There are many other technical aspects which I am not sharing at the moment, which may make this post too lengthy for viewers/ readers.
Is Tejas Mk1 A better than F-16? Yes it is better in many ways? What are those? Is Tejas Mk2 better than Rafale? Of course, it is going to be better than Rafale. However, we still have huge import loving old lobbies for whom it is difficult to accept that Indians csn produce good platforms. Same old colonial thought process which can be seen in many walks of life.
You are a little optimistic and misleading !!!
The Air Force would not sign a contract without seeing proof on concept and THAT is THE issue !!!
@@VermaRajinder Absolutely right. Why should anybody sign the contractract without a proof. Please note:
1. Tejas IOC was flying. Is it not the proof of concept?
2. Even after Tejas FIC flying high, why did it took so long to sign the contract.
3. India paid heavily for IAF demanded specifics on the Rafale. You may be knowing that India signed contract with Rafale without IAF seeing the proof of India specific modifications on Rafale.
4. More importantly, it is indian tax payers money which goes from IAF to indian government's company HAL.
It seems IAF gives favour to a foreign firm over a company which is owned by unduan public.
Things are no better with Indian army. Indian army took slomist a decade to prove ATAGS howitzers manufactured by Indian company Bharat Forge, Armenia a foreign country has placed orders for ATAGS. Our freat forces are still evaluating.
In fact, our quality control establishments take pride and boast that our evsluation is so rigorous that we take a decade to evaluate a system.
There goes timelines discussion. Recently, IAF itself asked last minute changes for mk1a. But it won't get discussed.
exactly, even current uttam will have more TR modules.
What last minute changed did they ask?
When Bharat Grows chini slows Bharat Mata ki jai
But aj Chinese ki grow first quarter mai 5.3 Aya hai🤔
@@dogesh3717Annual is coming only 2-3%
One of the best discussions from DEF Talks. 👍 Pls conduct more discussions on AMCA,Tejas Mk2, Nuke SSN (not SSBN), BMD Phase 2 (AD-1/AD-2), and status on AESA radar, GaN AESA radar, indegenous assault rifle such as Ugram etc.
Tejas mk1 is not testing model but full edge fighter aircraft.
the foc varient (full operational clearence) before that the ioc and prototypes were testing models
Learn to establish world class manufacturing capacities inside India.
Tejas needs seriousness from HAL and hard work, lots of late night work the way US defence does. These are difficult engineering tasks and if done faster happens better but if delayed happens really bad besides time is of importance. There should be more pressure at the management level, Abdul Kalam or E Sreedharan style. HAL and ADA needs tougher, dedicated and patient managers, designing complex thing is engineering but a good part is managing teams allowing multiple shifts as was case with BARC.
And yet, Airforce refuses to participate directly in their top projects like Navy.
HAL used to be known as 'Hindustan Araam Lodge' due to it's lethargic work culture.
There is a huge pile of deadwood workforce which is utterly incompetent and a stumbling block in infusing agile, young talents.
@@user-ft7sn7fc6m Kadi chawal ninda is sleeping over it. 😅
Have yo heard what exDeffence minister Monohar parikar's comments on Forces expectations from Indian vs Imported ???
@@user-ft7sn7fc6m news flash to you that I'm not help for you as I'm a bhakt not a kambakht
@@user-ft7sn7fc6m I'm not help for you as I'm a bhakt not a kambakht
Jai Hind jai Bharat jai shri Ram
Take care not to divulge info more than required 👍
Great topic to discuss. HAL needs to pull up their socks big time now. Can't behave like SBI. This is directly linked to the national security. Can we ask the guest what is causing the delays?
जय भारत 🇮🇳
JAI BHARAT 🇮🇳
The IAF is not at a point where we can afford to divert domestic production capacity for export orders. The IAF is presently sitting at 30 squadrons as compared to the target of 42. Of these, 6 are Jaguar attack squadrons, and the 2 MiG-21 squadrons will be phased out next year. That leaves us at 28 squadrons essentially, which is two-thirds of the target. With retirement looming for the Jaguar, Mirage 2000, and MiG-29 in the next decade (which is another 11 squadrons), the IAF's strength has to go up first. This should be done through a combination of the Tejas Mk 1A/2, MRFA, and AMCA.
In any case, there is a case to be made that the 42 squadron target is also outdated, and with the PLAAF and PAF increasing their numbers, we would need more squadrons. Let the domestic needs come before exports.
The production capacity is not limited at all. The production rates are struggling due to lack of orders from India and abroad.
@@ayushroy2244 On the contrary, production capacity is very much limited. We have multiple bottlenecks, be it due to production capacity of the GE F404, local supplier constraints, etc.
Fighters are complex machines, and HAL has tens, if not hundreds, of suppliers behind the Tejas. They have a certain capacity, and while they can expand, it is a gradual process.
HAL presently has infrastructure in place to deliver 16 jets a year, but they are not even achieving 5. They have plans to increase that capacity to 24 jets a year by 2026-27, but that remains to be seen.
There is also the fact that they are making claims about delivering the first 83 Tejas Mk 1A jets by 2028-29. Considering that not even one jet has been delivered so far, they would need to average over 16 jets a year starting this year to achieve that, which is looking highly unlikely.
If HAL wants to open a local production line in the foreign customer's nation and can source components in a manner which does not delay the lines here in India, then it's fine. However, the production lines in India, atleast under the present plan, have to be directed for the IAF. We do not have the excess capacity available, and if we start diverting India-made Tejas jets to export, the IAF would be facing at a massive capability issue as older aircraft start leaving service.
@@ayushroy2244 usa can't produce more than 20 per year ge 404 engine for tejas mk1a. Korean kai T50 jet also uses same engine with backlog orders for domestic & exports.
Su 30 mki is also obsolete now.. in next few years they'll be decommissioned also
@@sauchopra Not by a long shot. The Su-30MKI is starting to undergo a fairly significant upgrade program (the Super Sukhoi Su-30 program). The Su-30MKI will start retiring around 2047, with the whole type phased out around 2055.
💯💯💯💯💯
Jai Hind Jai Bharat
I really enjoy and look forward to these kind of defence related discussions with people from DRDO and Airforce on our indigenous platforms. If possible, please ask about Tejas's performance in dogfights and overall capabilities.
Tejas is not a fighter jet, it's a gudiya bird 🐣
future of Air fight will be long range. f-16 or f-22 will destroy our tejas. India is far behind.
जय हिंद 🇮🇳
Air force should learn a thing or two from navy while navy haas gone with fully indiginous hulls and some subsystem import iaf screwed badly with planning
while critisizing hal airforce should also see that funds are given at time the funds of tejas mk2 is delayed by at least 2 years thus the problem lies with govt too not solely by hal
Even amca was delayed for three years
@@meetjobanputra5476 haha it only solidify my arguement the funds of amca is approved early this year (hal would get funds later this year) how can a company do rnd if they dont have the frekin money
ps there is also news that some high officials were against amca saying it cost too much to make which is 2 billion & for aircraft r&d (for reference we were paying russia 5-6 billion $ for su 57 and another 30-35 billion for manufacturing)
Adi sir ji
Nice lovely one
Looking forward ahead more episodes on defense topic story
Jai hind jai Bharat 🙏
Hey Aadi I have a request.
This conversation looks like a one sided talk.
Please if possible have an interview with *Shubodh Sharma* admin of UA-cam channel named *Alpha Defense* .
He will tell you why the delays were happened in Tejas program and why most of the time it's IAF that was the reason behind it.
Please do approch Shubodh.
Just blaming HAL & DRDO for everything feels like a Propoganda to me.
Bhai Modi se kuch Lena dena nahi hai bhai😂 we must hear both sides
Heavy rain ☔ in soudi Arabia.Hailstorm.Normal life crippled.Employees suggested to wfh.jai hind Jai Bharat 🙏🙏
वंदेमातरम् 🇮🇳
Jay Shreeram
JAI HIND
🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳
If we had given the contract of manufacturing Tejas to our haardworking Private sector, MSMEs, startups they would be delivered 100+ Mk1 Mk2 by now... & side by side we would hv parallely first flown our AMCA too... Hope tht our eyes open asap and we start giving more contracts to proven pvt cos like L&T, Mahindra, Tata adv systems #Jaihind❤
Frequent modification by iaf and supply chain issues are also reasons for delay in lca program.
the reasons that could be attributed to Delay of Tejas MK1a was final development niggles & production rate...
HAL earlier(pre Aero India 2019) said to have capacity to produce 8 MK1a per year with one assembly line but if orders could be substantial(which were) then they could produce 8 more(16 now) with another assembly line freeing in Bangalore.. they have recently open another line in nashik which could cater to 8 more(total 24 post 2025 & even 4 more could produce there with investment) now with IAF in final stage to order 97 more of Tejas MK1a which would be real success for this program..
hope by the end of MK1a schedule IAF could place order of 201 or 12 sqdn of MK2 as said by BS dhanoa sir with 24 or more production rate IAF would be better off with these than Mirage, Mig29 & Jaguars..
HAL was always giving Hopium to MoD but with investment of IAF we could succed now..
Govt should find alternative for new aircrafts from USA France etc encourage companies like Tata Mahindra etc in this industry
Interesting debate🎉🎉🎉❤❤
In case of aircraft HAL failing because other than HAL problems plagued with too much entenched ex IAF Officers proving hinderence, IAF too keep on changing its goal post in terms of QRs. Once the QRs given, it keeps on adding onto those ones after seeing any fighter in every foriegn visit, because HAL is Khaalaa ka Ghar n that too his buddy sitting ss high up in HAL. Theek hai yaar iss ko bhi likh lo.
Jai Bharat.. Jai Hind
Jai hind
Jai Bharat.❤
From all the discussions I understand that HAL was designed for assembling aircrafts not designing cutting edge aircrafts. Some guilt in delays in delivery is also caused by IAF by changing requirements.
Jay bharat
We should listen to the other story also , pls invite someone from ADA for more clarity.
Sqn Ldr is explaining tactically the specs of TEJAS from his heart.
Yes mark 2 is totally different jet that is why HAL is reluctant to proceed
umm, how is uttam delay related to hal? uttam is made by drdo labs not hal
There is a need to rely less of exported components by developing a strong local industry for parts and sub systems
These are the import lobbies due to which we couldn't get another aircraft after Marut and LCA got delayed so much
Way back in 1999 - 2003 i was associated with many Public sectors, HAL, ECIL, entire DRDO selling products to them and i had seen the worst kind of people working in those public sectors. Out of 100% work force only 15-18% will work remaining all of them are sleeping in the lawn, eating, fighting, unions, no one works. That culture has to change, they need leaders who can get the work done by these lazy individuals and deliver the products......
They can also improve the phased out ajeet aircraft for dog fight with powerful engines . One should improvise it at the need of the hour
Airforce is also known for changing goals they never sticks to final specifications always blame and start imports
We can expedite and we should, wat ever is n
eeded we should do
IAF must sit with HAL and sort out together of they really care bbout the country don put blames
HAL made it on time.Airforce delayed contract signing.No company will make a aircraft before contract signing
Brother IAF is aiming for mark 2 hal is not providing mark 2 how can IAF place orders of underperforming aircrafts
❤❤
Jai hindu rashtra Jai bhart vendematram Jai shiyaram
I believe that the original Uttam was meant to be a GaAs radar with about 700-800 TR modules, now they are working on GaN radar with 900+ TR modules. Airforce keeps asking for the best of the best and they want it instantly.
If IAF stuck to GaAs, i believe we could have had Uttam with the 21st MK1A
IAF 1st asked Uttam to be a GaAs based AESA, but then they changed it to GaN based AESA.... But no one knows that, only blame those HAL ppl, because they stayed in India denying salary in dollars....but.....
Is mamata Banerjee involved in mastermind of Salman Khan attack and rameshwaram cafe..Her comments on the issue feels very fishy this two attacks seems to have politically motivated
was wondering does anyone know the endurance (without external fuel talks) and the sensor (pods) & weapon carrying capability in Tons
Please comment on whether Tejas Mark 1A is contemporary or not with present western fighters .
Frankly ---- Engine Tech is a Huge Huge Issue ... So is Electronic at the Chip Level ..... Rest is All Doable .... But the Engine & MicroCircuits is a Huge Huge issue !!! Our own demand is Huge and exports are not really the driving Force !!! 🙏
"Although subsonic, Nirbhay is terrain hugging missile so it is most difficult to shoot it down" - please elaborate if this is a misconception
This air force veteran reacting like we were building Mercedes in country so long, everything should be fantastic from first aircraft
yea thats the difference between makers and buyers while the one doing research justify the time taken in accordance to the fact that there wasnt any aircraft producing ecosystem in the country
while the buyers (IAF) can just deem the makers careless or incompetent without deep diving into the other factors
ps both of the pov is correct but the thing is that there should be compromises from both sides ie better timing quotes by hal and some patience by iaf
Both are equally at fault. Believe me.
Telco was building Mercedes trucks and later in 90's Mercedes Benz cars.
Issue is, it was a private company. HAL was 'nationalised' in the same way as Air India. We know what happens after nationalization.
Govt , psu & military are at fault for defence project delays
Sir hal said 3 years after the order of tejas mk1A and order was given in 2021 so it iaf mistake that they take time to give orders
Sir, HAL ko funding kb mili mk2 ke liye???
HAL ne bola tha ki contract milne ke 36 months me mk1a ka 1st aircraft deliver kr denge, aur HAL me aisa hi kiya
GoI funding approval me hi kai kai saal lga deti hai… planning alag hai aur funding milna alag hai
One of the major reason for delay is the system.
They didn't provide necessary permission on time.
Also the air force is responsible as they did change their requirements every now and then.
HAL has never been at this level of activities.
So blaming only HAL is not fair
HAL and GTRE have enormous inertia for not doing effective output. Since 1977, when I was a Engg student, DRDO was given an assignment of developing MIG 21 engine, alas nothing come out. SAME is for Kaveri engine. It's a shear waste of time and man power
Previous was different. You can be negative and get ego boost but have you compared the money other countries pump in and how long they take. F35 was 2 decades and over a trillion dollars.
Also you forget what was previous govt was doing. Would you work and what would be your motivation where 200 scientist have been assassinated in some form.
First IAF should diversify from HAL they should use modern high end weapon technological companies for high end weapons not blame HAL
जब कावेरी का इंजन तैयार है एक ग्राउंड सपोर्ट एयर क्राफ्ट बनाया जा सकता है
Everyone talking about Tejas mk1, mk1a, mk2 & AMCA but sadly there's not many people that talks about Tedbf
Because it's a dud program.
What makes you assume that?
Sir funds bhi to release karne hote h time pe
India can make rockets and missiles but y cant it make an aircraft engine,,,please make a video on it.
We have made jet engine but it is underpowered at 73KN, our requirement was 90KN.
And we are using the dry Kaveri version of into our Ghatak UAV.
Already made by him and th3 expert. Scroll his channel
Rockets and missiles are much easier to make than aircraft engines.
This background is a big turndown Sir. Please do a watermark of your logo on the video screen itself as with current settings the video is very narrowed
Sab HALke promise pe mat dekho CCS ka clearance bhi delay hua , airforce bhi commitment nahi de rahi thi, hal khudke funds pe kafi kuch kar rahe the.
We are still missing AWACS and refuellers, what is IAF doing?😢
❤ fantastic ❤ sir l 🫡
There is one thing being pragmatic, its another being downright pessimistic. This man certainly is.
Can you please shed some light on MRFA 2.0
DRDO is another agency with politics too hit badly. Even they dont apply latest tech if theyget approval they delay if they dont get approval they dont work at all. NaL too is hit with politics. Lot of em have fallen for honey trap. Union blackmail etc
Ye vetran IAF ki galti nahi bataenge in taking bad decisions they dont know how difficult is to make those things independently bas inko sab off the shelves milta aa raha hai tho aadat ho gai hai patience nahi hai
Plane udana aur plane banana , farak hai vetran sahab , US ko bhi time laga tha aur waha bhi delay hue the.
Adi bhI hamko angregi nahi aati hai
The Indians have been developing the Texas for the last 40 years and still asking questions whether this program will succeed or not😂
Sir HAL is a ? mark …
Mr Adi the director of ADA is my college colleague. He has been involved in the TEJAS & AMCA projects right from its inception. Is is ok to share this video with him. Awaiting ur reply.
Sure
Done
Missiles missiles missiles... dumb, guided, intelligent...UAVs, USVs...millions of them is the next need.
Radars, radars, radars ...next needs
Drdo & ada & ade & hal are at fault for delays & cost overrun & unfinished projects. Cag should report on these incompetent psu , government should also provide timely funds and pressure psu to fastrack projects.
Hal / ADA aur IAF ko saath me bithao for bat karo
This vetran wants to give 2 billion dollers to foreign agency...hmmm iska jawab kaun dega public ko for bolenge gov ki galti hai itna mehnga kyu liya. Rafael me bhi ye hi hua
Mark 2 2035+ around 2040 first flight...
Sqn ldr is not able to place his finger on what needs to be done. That there is potential in HAL is known to any Indian.😊
More than HALF, IAF is to blame for delays. Poor procurement procedures and corruption in top brass under influence from importomania lobby.
Please get private sector in this
Hal cant produce nor keep up with their promise because theor is lot of infighting in management andnunion issues. 90 percent of the employees dont work to their full potential. Every thing is politics in Hal
Most importantly Screw the Bureaucrats
Bharat needs to either breakup HAL and have it run by different Leaders or transfer technology to private industry and have them build the planes. We are putting all eggs in one basket.
If the IAF had placed the order for 83 Tejas Mk1As earlier than Feb 2024, the first flight of the Tejas Mk1A serial production fighter could've been done earlier. Anyway, I'm shocked that a person like Sqdn Ldr V Thakur doesn't know that the various sub systems and systems of the Tejas Mk1A were flying since almost 2020 on multiple Tejas Mk1 FOC LSP prototypes to test and validate them. HAL had the first flight 37 months after contract signature. Contract required the first flight 36 months after signature. WHERE IS THE DELAY that he's talking about? Just criticizing for the heck..
HAL is the worst manufacturing company work should be distributed to Pvt party