This is probably the most eloquent I've ever seen Roger Hallam. The difference between the climate liberals and the climate resistant movement is really tangible. Great interview Nick!
Exactly who you should talk to Nick!!! Hi from New Zealand, a top 10 global polluter climate and ecological with a new climate denying right wing government busy reversing a bunch of climate and ecological policy, laws and actions and increasing emissions.
Thank you Nick... "If you want to throw the dice, then you have to have a critcal mass of civil resistance which ... to put some numbers on it requires 10,000 people be in the streets for 3 or 4 weeks it's not that high." It's a fine observation from Roger Hallam, but we have to remember the background. It didn't happen overnight. This is why building that critical mass of positive energy beforehand is so important and why Roger and his team need all the exposure they can get. Thanks Nick Breeze and thanks Roger Hallam.
31:00 Wow. I loved what Roger said about scientists. I have never heard that ever. I am a Chemist and I like to think of global warming and physics as the "cold equations" (no pun intended). "The Cold Equations" (1996) is a great film and allegory for global warming. I would love to hear a scientist interviewed who says -I'll not speak to any social policy or political policy because that is not my specialty which is what I try to say when talking about global warming. "Just the facts, Ma'am" as they say.
a great and important discussion of the future social chaos. "Everything has a moral hazard" - "for the next 10 years, expect massive reduction in carbon emissions, massive investment in geo-engineering -- and a revolution - and all the 3 things are interlinked"
Ya, as problems go, changing a system we inherited, good or bad, is damn near impossible. We must look to the climate events themselves to provide the change required.
Where can I get / play just the audio file of these podcasts? For me, a podcast is a playable audio-only file. UA-cam will not let me play a video when my phone screen is turned off, whereas audio files can be played.
About 13 minute in, Nick comments how 10 years ago, no one thought emissions would still be increasing and that governments would be doubling down on their fossil fuel paths. I once said that to myself too, but that was around 2005. When I left government work in '90, I knew that all the other scientists knew about the global warming and fossil fuels. So I assumed that the government must be acting on it, in spite of the headlines I routinely saw. I mean, the outcome is so horrific once it gets cranking, of course they had to be working on it!! But silly me - I was wrong.
It is strange to go back and look at interviews from back then and comprehend that so little has changed in terms of real policy changes. All the changes being implemented are taking place in the at the very last minute, on the outer extremity of the last chance saloon.
@@NickBreeze I agree there. It's just getting worse and worse and worse. We are truly omnicidal at this point. Proliferating nuclear weapons for F sakes!
Thanks Gentlemen, the usual intelligent, conscious conversation. Today, the world human population has increased by over 200,000, It will increase by the same number the day after and the day after... Need i illustrate further? The problem with the climate is a symptom of our overshoot. Solution...?
Not forever, though. Populations are expected to sharply decline. The real issue is the level of consumption by the world's top ten per cent. Dealing with that is critical to survival. In the current socio-political climate, "solutions" are foreign to our predicament.
@@NickBreeze Agreed, Nick. I was being rhetorical using the word 'solution'. Your sentence 'populations are expected to sharply decline' , doesn't just mean birthrate, though? The first world is already turning away from the sight of mass starvation in countries without resources we require. Expect this inaction to increase too! Roger is surely correct calling this the beginning of a death cult...
Honestly, i think the powers that be probably decided on geoengineering (via solar radiation management) a decade or more ago. They looked at the state of the technology, took a hard look at what it would actually take to switch to a zero-carbon economy via cuts alone, and decided it was socially and politically impossible. I think a lot of those at the top concluded that a rapid decarbonization would result in such a hit to quality of life that they wouldn't be able to remain in power. Some other politician could come along and take their seat by declaring climate change a hoax or saying cuts were unnecessary due to future technologies.
If what you say is correct, then Roger's proposition to take back power is valid, no? The deniers/fossil fuel backed lobby are winning hearts and minds to pretend BAU is fine.
It's funny you asked him how much traction he gets. This wonderful interview hasn't even gotten 3500 views. What does that tell you? People are not interested. At least not until something happens directly to them and then they complain because they "didn't know".💔🌎
Coverting the natural world into bank account balances. Most consumption is unnecessary. Looking at a forest and wondering what it is worth, can it can be cut at profit and if we don't need the forest products can we create a need for them so we can cut it for profit is the mindset of many in our world. The business/profit motive is twisted to its core. Unfortunately one destructive individual can undo the efforts of many trying to make positive changes. First money then dust.
I'm a supporter of Roger in the main. But does he know that detractors poke fun by placing bets on how soon into a talk Roger will mention Hitler? I think it was 9mins in on this one.
I think the 1930’s, the rise of fascism and the blindness of the mainstream western democracies are pretty apt metaphor for what is happening now. In the 30’s they mocked Churchill. In the 2020’s they are mocking Hallam and Thunberg. 😕
he fixates on the "state" but he's ignoring that Mother Nature will take revenge much faster than the "state" will collapse. Yes fascism is the norm now - just go into any big box store owned by a multi-billionaire - but Mother Nature is way underestimated in her power.
My name is Matthew Chute I’m the Climate buddh I put together I think about 50 podcasts, which concluded with the political solution I called #InstantRadicalChange Roger Hallam has caught up to the work of the #AbruptClimateChange community and is openly espousing the solutions that I personally have discussed in my podcasts from years ago
So many of us, who had the courage to tell the truth about the short time frames of having a livable climate, have been vilified and attacked, and even legally surveyed and had private companies survey them, we’ve seen our social media efforts be marginalized by some nameless algorithm we’ve been called Climate deniers, because we say say the truth, the truth that came directly from valid peer reviewed research. It became clear that the solutions to this problem were not feasible, using math and physics, leaving us all with the ultimate process of attaining #CompetitiveEnlightenment. Whereby this mass cooperation will be the gift that we leave for the future archaeologist to discover. A work of societal art for no reason other than its better than a military dictatorship. The entire alternative reality can be expressed in a series of hashtags #distributepower #universalalignment #Logicalradical and the soft landing of #UniversalAlignmentwage plus the political solution of #systemschangeparty #DirectDemocracy 0:03
microalgae can store 100 gigatons per year as per 2023 peer reviewed published research. Raffael Jovine's "Brilliant Planet" near ocean desert algae farms can store 10 gigatons per year AT BEST - and he's only at 100,000 tons a year now. So the idea just needs to really be scaled up fast.
I spent a little time with Roger way back, during a hunger strike for `Say No to Heathrow` in London, against the expansion of Heathrow airport. I also listened to Roger speak at gatherings of Extinction Rebellion (XR) in the early days, and was briefly part of a small working group with him related to XR Media. I also understand that Roger has studied social movement design at Phd level. I admire Roger for his passion, commitment, and courage, and for some of his insights and points of view. However, I think that on a strategic level, despite his studies, he presents a narrow view of the strategic and tactical options available to us (he is not the only person to have studied strategy and the history of activism and revolutions). I also strongly disagree with his encouragement of activists / watchers of his videos to `act now` to follow his instructions for social movement building (with the narrow aims of creating citizens` assemblies, which are not guaranteed to work on climate, and therefore should not be where we should put all our strategic eggs). Fine if people want to `act now` to follow Roger`s advice, but he should not be criticising people for preferring, at this time, to study deeply and widely, and act a little later, when the time is right (which differs per person / community) or even to build local power instead of focusing on the national level. Yes, we have a relatively short window of time in which to act, but failing to study history and strategy deeply, and just taking Roger`s word for things, rushing to the capitals to do civil disobedience, is not great strategic thinking, and does not encourage tactical democracy, or even democracy of any kind. A stronger democracy (what Roger rightly wants) requires a more deeply informed citizenry, which means encouraging people to study activism and strategy as Roger has done, (and indeed, systems thinking and Earth systems science) - not merely to follow Roger`s word and `act now` in exactly the way that Roger and his uncritical supporters insist. Roger`s focus on `good nationalism` is also highly problematic, in my view. One of my biggest criticisms of XR-style movement building is the very simplistic understanding of the climate crisis and a failure to analyse the crisis as a symptom of a much wider `metacrisis` of civilization, the crux of which is ecological overshoot, which includes the impossibility of a so-called `green transition` which is in any way compatible with a capitalist global economy. Citizens assemblies, according to the models that Roger has presented, are, by themselves, or even as a central strategic focus (as opposed to a justifiable tactic as part of a much more wide-ranging strategy which Roger has failed to present) are hardly going to be granted the power to end capitalism itself. Hence a major flaw in the XR-style strategy. I have other criticisms too, but in general I wish Roger et al luck with their social movement building. Nevertheless, I hope you are watching out for your blind spots Roger. We all have them...
"One of my biggest criticisms of XR-style movement building is the very simplistic understanding of the climate crisis and a failure to analyse the crisis as a symptom of a much wider `metacrisis` of civilization, the crux of which is ecological overshoot, which includes the impossibility of a so-called `green transition` which is in any way compatible with a capitalist global economy" I agree wholeheartedly, thanks for this observation.
@@NickBreeze you are welcome. I will definitely be reading your book. Your YT channel has really helped to keep me informed over the months, on the climate side of things. Keep up the great work!
Roger not mentioning the natural world and maybe we should lay off it even though we are headed towards collapse. The geoengineering conversation may take place, but we all know it has huge problems.
Honestly, I think what we're seeing here is the last desperate attempts at flailing optimism. The hour is very late, and it's dark outside. There's little reason to believe we'll make any changes at *this* point in the game. The time for changes was at least 30 years ago, some say 60. I'm all for struggling, but at this point the literal ONLY thing that will stop earth from becoming a hellscape is "geo-engineering", that needs to be a perfect technology, or it'll get shut down because some countries won't stand for having it worse than others, even if they're technically better off than before the engineering. And what does this remind you of, if not greenwashing? Neolibs are using carbon capture technology to magically make the fossil fuel threat go away. And we all know why that tech doesn't work, so I won't go into it. But the point is, geo-engineering is basically 'greenwashing for the mind'. It's, at least from what I gather in this interview, this magic bullet that's going to save everyone from certain doom. And that alone makes it obvious it's not going to work. Humanity is a failed experiment of the universe, and it just may be that any intelligent species that discover electricity inevitably go down this path. Over-population, over-consumption, leading to exponential damage to nature, causing nature to collapse. (And what happens after that is up to you to figure out.)
#Regenerative #Governance (@ 2011) is, exactly, a new regime, bottom up, just as you call for, Roger, yet you refuse to engage me. As does Nick Breeze. This begs the question: Do you *really* want solutions? Evidence suggests not or you'd engage just on the mere chance I may have something worth hearing. That's how you handle long-tail existential threats.
This is probably the most eloquent I've ever seen Roger Hallam. The difference between the climate liberals and the climate resistant movement is really tangible. Great interview Nick!
Thank you for feeding back!
You're doing GREAT work Nick
Thanks for having Roger on, his observations are keen!
Exactly who you should talk to Nick!!! Hi from New Zealand, a top 10 global polluter climate and ecological with a new climate denying right wing government busy reversing a bunch of climate and ecological policy, laws and actions and increasing emissions.
Thank you Nick... "If you want to throw the dice, then you have to have a critcal mass of civil resistance which ... to put some numbers on it requires 10,000 people be in the streets for 3 or 4 weeks it's not that high." It's a fine observation from Roger Hallam, but we have to remember the background. It didn't happen overnight. This is why building that critical mass of positive energy beforehand is so important and why Roger and his team need all the exposure they can get. Thanks Nick Breeze and thanks Roger Hallam.
Thanks Brian 🖖
Overwhelming now, the non responses I notice around here. I agree with Roger on the Sept 1939 analogy. Also, best to expect a 3C outcome as probable.
Thanks for commenting.
31:00 Wow. I loved what Roger said about scientists. I have never heard that ever. I am a Chemist and I like to think of global warming and physics as the "cold equations" (no pun intended). "The Cold Equations" (1996) is a great film and allegory for global warming. I would love to hear a scientist interviewed who says -I'll not speak to any social policy or political policy because that is not my specialty which is what I try to say when talking about global warming. "Just the facts, Ma'am" as they say.
Thanks Diane!
Thank you, Nick and Rodger.
Happy New Year.
Thanks for something special that I can take back to my good friends who are mostly in denial and loving their fairytales
Great comment, thanks.
Nice compliment at the end, your series inspired Roger to get into all this! Muy bien hermano!
I'm impressed you listened all the way. 🖖
I anticipate massive societal chaos by the end of this decade.
LOL. I bet you say that every decade.
a great and important discussion of the future social chaos. "Everything has a moral hazard" - "for the next 10 years, expect massive reduction in carbon emissions, massive investment in geo-engineering -- and a revolution - and all the 3 things are interlinked"
Good quote, cheers.
Thank you for this very intersting talk!!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Ya, as problems go, changing a system we inherited, good or bad, is damn near impossible. We must look to the climate events themselves to provide the change required.
This was great
Where can I get / play just the audio file of these podcasts? For me, a podcast is a playable audio-only file. UA-cam will not let me play a video when my phone screen is turned off, whereas audio files can be played.
@TobinMiller-wt6yf Did not even know that existed. No wonder Google are shutting it down in April 2024.
On Spotify too
About 13 minute in, Nick comments how 10 years ago, no one thought emissions would still be increasing and that governments would be doubling down on their fossil fuel paths. I once said that to myself too, but that was around 2005. When I left government work in '90, I knew that all the other scientists knew about the global warming and fossil fuels. So I assumed that the government must be acting on it, in spite of the headlines I routinely saw. I mean, the outcome is so horrific once it gets cranking, of course they had to be working on it!! But silly me - I was wrong.
It is strange to go back and look at interviews from back then and comprehend that so little has changed in terms of real policy changes. All the changes being implemented are taking place in the at the very last minute, on the outer extremity of the last chance saloon.
@@NickBreeze I agree there. It's just getting worse and worse and worse. We are truly omnicidal at this point. Proliferating nuclear weapons for F sakes!
@@NickBreeze I use the Radio Ecoshock archive for that reflection. Thank you for your efforts too.
It's a hoax
Thanks Gentlemen, the usual intelligent, conscious conversation. Today, the world human population has increased by over 200,000, It will increase by the same number the day after and the day after... Need i illustrate further? The problem with the climate is a symptom of our overshoot. Solution...?
Not forever, though. Populations are expected to sharply decline. The real issue is the level of consumption by the world's top ten per cent. Dealing with that is critical to survival. In the current socio-political climate, "solutions" are foreign to our predicament.
@@NickBreeze Agreed, Nick. I was being rhetorical using the word 'solution'. Your sentence 'populations are expected to sharply decline' , doesn't just mean birthrate, though? The first world is already turning away from the sight of mass starvation in countries without resources we require. Expect this inaction to increase too! Roger is surely correct calling this the beginning of a death cult...
Honestly, i think the powers that be probably decided on geoengineering (via solar radiation management) a decade or more ago. They looked at the state of the technology, took a hard look at what it would actually take to switch to a zero-carbon economy via cuts alone, and decided it was socially and politically impossible. I think a lot of those at the top concluded that a rapid decarbonization would result in such a hit to quality of life that they wouldn't be able to remain in power. Some other politician could come along and take their seat by declaring climate change a hoax or saying cuts were unnecessary due to future technologies.
If what you say is correct, then Roger's proposition to take back power is valid, no? The deniers/fossil fuel backed lobby are winning hearts and minds to pretend BAU is fine.
It's funny you asked him how much traction he gets. This wonderful interview hasn't even gotten 3500 views. What does that tell you? People are not interested. At least not until something happens directly to them and then they complain because they "didn't know".💔🌎
Thanks. It is an interesting one. There'll be another shortly on this same theme.
@@NickBreeze I loved it. But I love all your work you're an inspiration!
"What does that tell you? " ---- it is algorithms, man, algorithms.
If you get rid of the political class then doesn't fascism take hold? Great interview
Thanks!
The oligarchy has made its decision. The rest of life itself is to be converted into money as fast, as hard, as possible.
Or dust?
Coverting the natural world into bank account balances. Most consumption is unnecessary. Looking at a forest and wondering what it is worth, can it can be cut at profit and if we don't need the forest products can we create a need for them so we can cut it for profit is the mindset of many in our world. The business/profit motive is twisted to its core. Unfortunately one destructive individual can undo the efforts of many trying to make positive changes. First money then dust.
I'm a supporter of Roger in the main. But does he know that detractors poke fun by placing bets on how soon into a talk Roger will mention Hitler? I think it was 9mins in on this one.
That’s a non-sequitir, isn’t it? What are you saying explicitly?
I think the 1930’s, the rise of fascism and the blindness of the mainstream western democracies are pretty apt metaphor for what is happening now. In the 30’s they mocked Churchill. In the 2020’s they are mocking Hallam and Thunberg. 😕
he fixates on the "state" but he's ignoring that Mother Nature will take revenge much faster than the "state" will collapse. Yes fascism is the norm now - just go into any big box store owned by a multi-billionaire - but Mother Nature is way underestimated in her power.
Godwin's Law
My name is Matthew Chute I’m the Climate buddh I put together I think about 50 podcasts, which concluded with the political solution I called #InstantRadicalChange Roger Hallam has caught up to the work of the #AbruptClimateChange community and is openly espousing the solutions that I personally have discussed in my podcasts from years ago
Thanks Matthew for commenting.
So many of us, who had the courage to tell the truth about the short time frames of having a livable climate, have been vilified and attacked, and even legally surveyed and had private companies survey them, we’ve seen our social media efforts be marginalized by some nameless algorithm we’ve been called Climate deniers, because we say say the truth, the truth that came directly from valid peer reviewed research. It became clear that the solutions to this problem were not feasible, using math and physics, leaving us all with the ultimate process of attaining #CompetitiveEnlightenment. Whereby this mass cooperation will be the gift that we leave for the future archaeologist to discover. A work of societal art for no reason other than its better than a military dictatorship. The entire alternative reality can be expressed in a series of hashtags #distributepower #universalalignment #Logicalradical and the soft landing of #UniversalAlignmentwage plus the political solution of #systemschangeparty #DirectDemocracy 0:03
Still believe the best ways to capture carbon is through growing hemp and bamboo ,organic soil conditioning and natural forest regeneration.
microalgae can store 100 gigatons per year as per 2023 peer reviewed published research. Raffael Jovine's "Brilliant Planet" near ocean desert algae farms can store 10 gigatons per year AT BEST - and he's only at 100,000 tons a year now. So the idea just needs to really be scaled up fast.
I spent a little time with Roger way back, during a hunger strike for `Say No to Heathrow` in London, against the expansion of Heathrow airport. I also listened to Roger speak at gatherings of Extinction Rebellion (XR) in the early days, and was briefly part of a small working group with him related to XR Media. I also understand that Roger has studied social movement design at Phd level. I admire Roger for his passion, commitment, and courage, and for some of his insights and points of view.
However, I think that on a strategic level, despite his studies, he presents a narrow view of the strategic and tactical options available to us (he is not the only person to have studied strategy and the history of activism and revolutions). I also strongly disagree with his encouragement of activists / watchers of his videos to `act now` to follow his instructions for social movement building (with the narrow aims of creating citizens` assemblies, which are not guaranteed to work on climate, and therefore should not be where we should put all our strategic eggs). Fine if people want to `act now` to follow Roger`s advice, but he should not be criticising people for preferring, at this time, to study deeply and widely, and act a little later, when the time is right (which differs per person / community) or even to build local power instead of focusing on the national level. Yes, we have a relatively short window of time in which to act, but failing to study history and strategy deeply, and just taking Roger`s word for things, rushing to the capitals to do civil disobedience, is not great strategic thinking, and does not encourage tactical democracy, or even democracy of any kind.
A stronger democracy (what Roger rightly wants) requires a more deeply informed citizenry, which means encouraging people to study activism and strategy as Roger has done, (and indeed, systems thinking and Earth systems science) - not merely to follow Roger`s word and `act now` in exactly the way that Roger and his uncritical supporters insist. Roger`s focus on `good nationalism` is also highly problematic, in my view. One of my biggest criticisms of XR-style movement building is the very simplistic understanding of the climate crisis and a failure to analyse the crisis as a symptom of a much wider `metacrisis` of civilization, the crux of which is ecological overshoot, which includes the impossibility of a so-called `green transition` which is in any way compatible with a capitalist global economy. Citizens assemblies, according to the models that Roger has presented, are, by themselves, or even as a central strategic focus (as opposed to a justifiable tactic as part of a much more wide-ranging strategy which Roger has failed to present) are hardly going to be granted the power to end capitalism itself. Hence a major flaw in the XR-style strategy. I have other criticisms too, but in general I wish Roger et al luck with their social movement building. Nevertheless, I hope you are watching out for your blind spots Roger. We all have them...
Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
"One of my biggest criticisms of XR-style movement building is the very simplistic understanding of the climate crisis and a failure to analyse the crisis as a symptom of a much wider `metacrisis` of civilization, the crux of which is ecological overshoot, which includes the impossibility of a so-called `green transition` which is in any way compatible with a capitalist global economy" I agree wholeheartedly, thanks for this observation.
@@mariontroia1471 thank you.
@@NickBreeze you are welcome. I will definitely be reading your book. Your YT channel has really helped to keep me informed over the months, on the climate side of things. Keep up the great work!
Roger not mentioning the natural world and maybe we should lay off it even though we are headed towards collapse. The geoengineering conversation may take place, but we all know it has huge problems.
Yes, huge problems but gaining momentum and being articulated well. The conversation about it risks slipping.
Honestly, I think what we're seeing here is the last desperate attempts at flailing optimism. The hour is very late, and it's dark outside. There's little reason to believe we'll make any changes at *this* point in the game. The time for changes was at least 30 years ago, some say 60.
I'm all for struggling, but at this point the literal ONLY thing that will stop earth from becoming a hellscape is "geo-engineering", that needs to be a perfect technology, or it'll get shut down because some countries won't stand for having it worse than others, even if they're technically better off than before the engineering. And what does this remind you of, if not greenwashing?
Neolibs are using carbon capture technology to magically make the fossil fuel threat go away. And we all know why that tech doesn't work, so I won't go into it. But the point is, geo-engineering is basically 'greenwashing for the mind'. It's, at least from what I gather in this interview, this magic bullet that's going to save everyone from certain doom. And that alone makes it obvious it's not going to work.
Humanity is a failed experiment of the universe, and it just may be that any intelligent species that discover electricity inevitably go down this path. Over-population, over-consumption, leading to exponential damage to nature, causing nature to collapse. (And what happens after that is up to you to figure out.)
the universe is likely to be filled with failed civilisations that couldn't resist the high EROI of fossil fuels
WE'RE ALL DOOMED. ARGGGHHHH!!!!!
#Regenerative #Governance (@ 2011) is, exactly, a new regime, bottom up, just as you call for, Roger, yet you refuse to engage me. As does Nick Breeze. This begs the question: Do you *really* want solutions? Evidence suggests not or you'd engage just on the mere chance I may have something worth hearing. That's how you handle long-tail existential threats.