The Truth About Buying Porsche GT Cars That Everyone Knows, But Is Afraid To Say [VLOG]
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- Опубліковано 25 чер 2018
- Over the last few years, people have been going mad for Porsche's GT cars. Prices of GT3 and GT4s rose sharply, and people are paying massive overs to secure the latest and greatest product from Weissach.
With many people buying these as a way of having a "free car", is that really true - or are the facts a little less enticing?
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Here I am, roaming on YT and find this guy. Standing behind a car. Plopped down his camera about 7 meters away and started talking to it, delivering a coherent story with zero jump-cuts or diversions. There is hope in this world
Thankyou. Have you seen my recent McLaren video?
As a 911 owner I 100% agree with everything you talked about here Jay. The investment market for limited GT and RS Porsches is totally pulling ownership of these cars (to drive) away from true Porsche enthusiasts. People keep telling me not to drive my 997.2 too much because it will be worth more in 20 years time if I keep the miles low. WHO CARES? I could be dead, bankrupt, homeless... or all of the above in 20 years. I bought a 911 because I love driving it. Please Porsche sell these cars to people who want to use them, not investors.
Drive it, enjoy it, and be proud of it!
True statement
great comment. I'm sticking with my 96 Camry 😃
too bad for us
as long as douchebags like +Salomondrin are flipping cars and publicly speculating, GT prices will stay stupid
This is not a video where I drive a car. That's not the title, and I say it in the beginning of the video.
in my 70 years on this earth, I've watched almost all bubbles burst and speculators pay the ultimate price. Sometimes it takes a bit more time, but it always ends the same. Smile and enjoy the car you are driving and don't worry about the one you can't afford.
jrossi9250 Well said.
Good advice my friend
64 years for me, and yeah, everything you said!
Wise advice, thank you.
I believe you know what you're saying.
Still driving my 997.1 GT3 that I am the first owner of, and I love it more every day. In fact, my son and I are taking it to a local Cars and Coffee tomorrow morning. I enjoy seeing the looks on people's faces when we arrive with plenty of track wear, and marbles still in the grill, on slicks, and tow hooks in place, (with the license plate in the glove box). Drive it, that is what they were designed for. If you don't, you are missing out.
Bought a gt4 3 months ago.. put already 2000 miles on it. its made to drive for gods sake
No Name that’s nice ^^
After the GT3 Touring my favorite new Porsche
That's an excellent car choice you made brother. That car is for real drivers and cars like that are rare today.
I've been looking at picking up a 981GT4 because every dealer I've spoken to so far has just about told me to pound sand on getting on a list to call about ordering the 718GT4. I want a GT4 to drive hard, at tracks and on spirited drives. I really like the idea of the 4.0L if that really becomes a thing. I'd really like to do European Delivery as well, but nobody has taken me serious. One dealership told me to buy a current used GT4 off their lot and then they'll maybe consider selling me the next generation.
stickshift964 i assume that the next gen gt4 (rs ) will have a non NA engine ;) the way the dealers handle you is just s shame. But your intention on buying a car and use it for what its made for warms up my heart. I dont like the collectors way on gt cars.
Only 2000 miles in 3 months? That is pretty low
Simple fix. Don't limit production. They probably end up selling the same amount of GT3's
"Is your car dealer lying to you?" Did their lips move?
Kevin CinnamonToast Never a truer word spoken.....
Haha. So true unfortunately. In the US my experience has been shockingly horrendous. Is it the same elsewhere? Heard Canada has stricter rules...
When I sold cars , in 2009 .. I never felt the need to lie anyone.
Maybe that's why I only lasted 8 months, even though I was a highest earning rep.
They did not like me selling 1 or 2 year old Used cars VS new cars.
Even though .
I thought. And still do.
That We all made more money on the used car, as I had all the data on what we paid, VS the Invoice price on the new cars.
Oh also i got a few people to pay full sticker price, on a few loaded cars in the show room.
BUT I Still got reprimanded, for showing customers the Invoice price vs MSRP price as seen Publicly on AutoTrader.
New cars dont have that much mark up,so when you show someone, MSRP is only 3,000 over the dealers price. They now have info they did not b4. Alot of people think new cars are marked up 20,000 or more, and you end up playing this negotiation game.
@@mrMacMilli2000I heard that 911 is one of the most profitable vehicles ever made.
They are expensive & a good product, to be fair.
But compared with what you would pay for something else, even a Porsche like Macan or Cayenne, they’re expensive.
Elephant in the room! Porsche have a whole media industry promoting the GT cars (and yes! they're great DRIVERS cars) ... but commercially they're just a lever for Porsche & their dealers to sell more units / make more profit. This hasn't happened by default, its intentional. Dealers can't sell new GT cars over list, so only sell them to an inner circle (multi Porsche owners / 'mates') - if they want to get another new GT car in the future, they have to sell their GT car back to the dealer, so it can be flipped for more profit. Flipping a fresh GT car in the open market means the dealer will block a future order. If you're not in the inner circle but want a GT car, you either buy a used one with premium or to 'maybe' get on the list for a new one, but you'd have to buy a few regular Porsches prior - even if they were SUVs/Saloons you may have zero interest in. Either way a GT newbe will pay the Porsche tax. This is a huge contrast to +/- 10 yrs ago, when GT cars were manual & only really appealed to drivers. Without the incentive to flip, demand was pinned back to owners who really wanted the car & really wanted to use it. Porsche & their dealers dug their own hole, fuelled by greed.
Yep. Dealers used to discount RS models to get them sold. And they are too greedy. If you already have a GT3 and you want an RS they expect you to trade in your old car at list price and they then sell it at massive overs, so they make huge money every time
Pretty sad hey James ? If the UK is bad, where I live in the UAE it's worse. Even with a confirmed order, logged with Porsche ME, deposit paid, build spec sorted you can get bumped-off 'your' delivery if a 'mate' of the dealer steps in. It really came to a head with the 991.1 GT3 RS - a large allocation came to the UAE, all sold to 'mates' of the dealer. Come delivery time, after almost zero use, they were lining-up outside random car dealers, RS after RS like a rainbow, being flipped way above list. Many didn't sell & are still knocking about, hardly used whilst owners are still waiting to cash-in. The new wave has all started again with 991.2 GT3 RS....
Very sad situation. Would very much like to own a GT3, but will not do it until I can avoid having to play these games or pay above MSRP for a 3 or 4 year old car. Same thing that kept me out of BMW 1M. Came very close to pulling the trigger a few years back, but just couldn't stomach paying MSRP for a 4 or 5 year old car with 20-30k miles on it. I'm just buying the car to drive, not for status or it's collectibility, and the value proposition just isn' there if I have to pay as if the car were new when it is not.
Had this confirmed recently by someone I met. He has to trade back his gt4 so he can get the new one. No other way. And if he didn’t trade up he would be bumped down the list. For future models.
Sean Cain this is also how Rolex work. Buy some gold variants and may be they will let you have a steel watch.
Limiting production numbers is.a big cause of these problems. Porsche is sowing the seeds for their own demise in the long term as car enthusiasts gravitate to less greedy manufacturers.
me being one of them.. a once porsche die hard, someone who owned/supported them and my gt2 when no one wanted them lol... and i have 0 shot at any new gt model
scanspeak00 I doubt it. Enthusiasts are usually window shoppers. Just look at rolex.
Porsche and demise don’t go in the same sentence.
it's Not Porsche inflating the price, it's Greedy Flippers making the money off of people with More money than sense. And of course(like he said) Shady Porsche Dealers.
23 minutes before the first cut, without repetition or 'eh'. That's talent dude 👍 (or just editing laziness 😂). As always keep up the good work!
Why not both? :)
@@JayEmmOnCars Because rambling on and on is not a talent. Serisouly dude, you take FOREVER to actually say anything. It's unwatchable. You really should learn to edit!
@@leothompson2777 It's not "unwatchable" it is one of my most watched videos - both in terms of views, and view duration.
I like the relaxed talking and no cuts... I could never pull that off!
Leo Thompson Don’t watch his vids then.
Drive mine no matter rain or shine when I am off work (not my daily driver). One guy asked me at a get together why I drove it that night, it was raining. I told him that is what they make car soap and mitts for. :)
This is REALITY (in the UK, at least). Back in 2011 I bought and sold a GT2RS for much the same money, figured I did alright....laughably they are now "worth" £150k+ over...anyway.....wanted a 991 GT3RS in March 2017, they were trading at around 260k. Er, no. Some dealers tried to sell me one under the guise "they are only ever going up in value". Er, no. So I bought a standard GT3 for £145k, still well over list but what can you do.
As expected, RS prices dropped, so picked one up in March 2018 for £200k.
I would love a 991.2, different interior and tech (carplay woo!) as well as a more punchy engine mid-range.....and I'm not a lover of the colour RS I have now......
Being flipped with asking prices of 270k to 320k. Er, no.
I take my cars on track (nurburgring mostly), but just like you mention about the option choices making a used car "undesirable", I'm frightened to drive the things. I've 2500 miles on my RS. WTF?! its not even run in. 10k miles is considered a "high mileage example".
I have tried and failed numerous times to get a new car allocation from porsche. If I could, I'd be more than happy to drive it to the moon and back, knowing that I'm not going to lose £50k in the process.
For me - the value is more about "appropriateness". I am comfortable taking a £200k car on track (although I'd prefer it if it was more like the RRP of £160ish). But quarter of a million ? Hmm. And as for the current GT2 RS, unless you are simply loaded to the point of non-caring, who's going to drive a half-a-million-quid car on track with any kind of commitment.
As you say, its all wrong. Enthusiasts are getting shafted on numerous counts.
Glad my video seems to ring true with those with real experience
I recently bought a 996 C4 for 16k and I'm scared to take that on track, I admire your commitment to using the car as it was designed to be used!
Must explain the shock on most people's faces when I pass them in mine if only on a couple of twisty roundabouts 😁
I love just watching this guy talk about cars while playing FIFA. Thanks the UA-cam recommend section
I recently privately sold a .1 GT3 that I owned for over 3 years, my favorite car I have yet to own. I also agree with everything mentioned in this video. There are definite pluses and minuses about this entire GT phenomenon. I am thankful on one end that I was able to enjoy my car for 3yrs with a net loss of 7% of what I paid. On the other, getting a newer one is next to impossible due to speculators/flippers.
7% is not a loss. It was bought for the experience :)
Every dealership and every sales person is different of course but in general I do not see US dealerships trying to up-sell models or promise no loss ownership? Where they can a sales person will suggest options (dealerships make more money from options) but it is not a hard sell. The difficulty with GT cars is often a lack of allocation so in turn high discounts are hard to come by. Anyone simple enough to think Porsche will not depreciate just like any other car is a fool. If you can not afford to loose 30k on a 100k car then yes you can not afford it.
They discount cars in the USA? In the UK Porsche have not offered discounts on cars for quite a while. Certainly not on GT products!
JayEmm on Cars the 718s in particular are heavily discounted in the US. I saw one for almost 10k less.
Not all Porsches. For instance 911r. But his video also applies to the GTS models.
911R was never sold by dealerships, they were all presold, to 918 owners and Porsche insiders, every last one.
Of course, most Porsche models can be had for 5-10% discount even in the UK if you know what you are doing. Even base GT3 models can be had with a discount, they are not a rare model.
You have a friend named James Dean who's a massive fan of Porsches? :')
How was there no nudge nudge wink wink about that in the video???!
Sounds like he's a rebel.............
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today.
Only the gentle are ever really strong.
The gratification comes in the doing, not in the results.
James Dean
Brilliant analysis, JayEmm. The dealers are doing a great job of creating a lucrative market.......for dealers, but not the buyers.
Yep, they are the only real winners
I agree with you 100% but you are too polite in describing the issue. I have had 15 Porches in the last 10 years and had three at the time when I was refused a GT3. The dealers are very corrupt and taking loads of kick backs in the UK. I can get one in Europe without any reference but not in the UK. Porsche are getting free publicity out of this so why should they stop it. I made a few videos about this topic too!!
People like this are everywhere, watches, cameras, cars you name it.. :)
It's a pretty funny issue. Me I've yet to sell a used car. I buy a car and then I drive it until it's falling apart and then I just scrap it. So I guess at least I buy a car that I know I"m going to like because I'll have it for a very, very long time and enjoy it for it's personal value...
I have a '14 991.1 carrera S that I already racked up 35,000 mi on it. Mostly driven on weekends and I have enjoyed every mile on it.
Good man!
43k for mine. Parked outside my office today, in the RAIN!!! :)
A Porsche being used for driving: what a wonderful thing.
43K for mine....and will drive it with regard for fun of it and regard for upkeep,but little concern on how many miles i put on it.
I don't get how you don't have more subscribers. Far better content than the Archibald click bait lovers
Thanks Mirin. All I can say is share the channel with your friends and hopefully it'll change soon!
I guess real informative videos don't get views like OMG LOOK WHAT I DUN TO MY LAMBO!!!!!!!
JayEmm on Cars And Patreon you! At least until your channel is profitable via advertising.
As another person stated below the videos need to be tightened up and shorter. I watched the one you did about bad service on your friends McLaren, and time could have been cut by at least 30%. Wanted to watch this one, but too long of a commitment. I have a UA-cam channel for my business that is growing well, and I get nervous if we end up over 12 minutes. Good guy, good topics, but look at Vinwiki. 8 minutes. 10 minutes.
The script and cadence of this video is like 90’s top gear. One man in front of a camera with the odd dad joke.
stuart bailey its perfect
Jay, you need more subscribers and followers. I am continuously impressed by your ability to wax lyrical for lengthy periods on this subject matter we car enthusiasts love so dearly.
Thanks John
Thanks Jay. I just bought a 2016 GT3RS with 30k quid worth of options that I would not have optioned had I bought the car new. There has been the usual 20% (or more) drive out the dealer door depreciation. I am planning to drive this sucker and never buy another sports car. I don't care how many miles I run up on it. I will daily it, weekend twisty it and track it as often as I have time. I am close to retirement age and I am going to care for it with love and sympathy and DRIVE THE SHIT out of it. If you have a car like this then drive it or get rid of it so that someone else can enjoy it.
Good man
I’m about to purchase a 2015 GT4 clubsport and will track the shit out of it. I will most likely also overspeed over potholes and speedbumps but will not give a flying fuck.
Don’t believe you!
Damn right - drive it like it's meant to be driven!
Join the Porsche 300.000 mile club
a pox on all Porsche speculators; could never understand that - Porsches were always meant for driving. Fair enough with old, special cars like the 2.7RS and low-run specials like a GT or GT1, but a GT3 or even a GT2 shouldn't be bought for their presumed future sales value, and up to the recent past they weren't. 911R and the last Mezger-engined GT3RS 4.0 speculators likely ruined everything for every GT3xx hopeful and Porsche enthusiast to come. Of course everyone in the chain was trying to get in on the act so a pox on dealers who charge a - ADDED! - premium just for the benefit of being able to buy a car from them because there's no other alternative (one reason I like Tesla!).
I always wanted a manual GT3 but if I was tracking it often and going to the Nordschleife like many GT3xx owners do, I'd have to get a PDK. I'd actually have to get a GT3RS (no manual), but my bank manager wouldn't see the benefit, especially if I can no longer convince him it's an "investment".
One other major peeve of mine: since the prices of these cars have been skyrocketing (from the factory, let alone third party extortionists), I'm much less likely to drive them in the manner I like (i.e. "spirited") because I'd be too concerned about the replacement cost. Already went down that road (literally) when replacement cost wasn't such a big deal, and realistically it was about a third of a modern GT3RS cost.
I watched the whole thing - anything with a Porsche will do that.
Thanks for watching to the end. It's not the most exciting video but I think it is important nonetheless
Even your not-the-most-exciting videos are interesting. Even when you're just standing around. That's a bit weird... :D
BTW, I did wonder what *are* your top 5 or top 10 cars? I haven't even driven that many interesting cars to have a top 5!
I've put 6000 miles on a BMW in 6 weeks across Europe, that car needs to be used, they suffer from being laid up, get in it and drive it ffs
@Mr.BigBoss7 Some BMWs are better than some Porsches- I'd take an M235i over a Macan without a 2nd thought. As it is, I test drove an M6, was massively disappointed (I turned up in a Lexus GS450h, I'll take that over the M6 any day) and bought a 981 Cayman S ☺ Think I've done 350 miles in the last 2 days...
If only I’d seen this video when it came out before I made my mistake, great advice
This video has all the reasons why, not to own a Porsche, congratulations Jay you nailed it.
Thanks Sarah
Porsche is an Experience..... not a car ..... once you drive Porsche GT you will never go back .....
Great presenter, very informative and honest and no ads every 2 mins keep up the good work 👍
Thanks Nev
Nev Whit agree on all counts
I've bought a lot of Porsches. At least 20. I guess that qualifies as "a lot." I bought my first 944 S2 in Guards Red when I was 26 and have been through most of their range since. I very much doubt that I will ever buy another and it's all because of the GT nonsense. I owned a 997.1 GT3 when I lived in Bahrain and loved it. When I came back to England I asked about buying a 991 GT3 and was told "Well, no promises but if you buy a Cayenne today, that will give you a good chance of getting a slot for a GT3." I didn't want or need a Cayenne but had to buy one to be given an outside chance of buying what I wanted?? I'd love Porsche bosses to have the same experience in their daily life. "You'd like the fillet steak, Sir? Well, if you order the pie and chips first, I'll ask the chef if he will let you have a steak." "You'd like to fly to LA sir? Well, if you fly to Cairo first, I'll see if I can book you a flight to LA later." Utter madness and I, for one, won't play. It's heartbreaking because I love their cars but I just refuse to be treated that way.
An excellent vid. 34 minutes of encouragement to buy a GT-R!
If I have had my opinion changed about any car in the last two years, it is the GTR. I love it.
Umm, he is right on the money. Literally I was calling my connection at Porsche today. Came across this video and agreed 100% I think I might just buy a higher mileage certified car at a lower price.
jeez shmee let himself go. at least he doesnt say im shmee every friggin video anymore
cheerth
jack black hai guise im shmeeeeeee
Colin Ashby never could, from the get go. Too much trust fund baby buys into a hobby to hang with the cool crowd for me.
@@fredriksvard2603 In his video with Manny he showed he actually has a 'regular guy' side, which I wouldn't have believed before. so maybe he will tone himself down after a couple of years. that incessant grin of his is hardly his fault , I've decided, that's just the way his facial muscles are made, like some people have perpetual frowns. But if he is making enough on the tube to buy a Senna? yikes, where did I go wrong?
I mean if you cant afford to lose it all, you really shouldn’t be buying a sports car. -Guy who doesn’t finance cars, especially fun toy cars
Great insight. Thanks for sharing with the masses👍🏼. Wasn't sure I could watch the whole video without any action scenes, but I did as it was so informative and confirmed what many people in the Porsche community have been saying for a while.
Thanks Max
I know a way to fix this. Just stop making limited production cars, make as many as the market demands and shout about the fact that you’re doing it so everyone knows.
Nice one James and about time someone had the guts to stand up and say it! 👌
Had a 997 C2 fantastic car (like a big Exige). Cars are built to be driven they are not built to be traded like Bitcoin
Bullshit - Cars are built to be bought. Porsche don't give a crap if you drive it or cover it in chocolate and give it away as an Easter egg. I too find it a shame when someone buys an awesome car and never drives it but you know what, their money their car - they do what they want with it, and enjoy it how they want to.
Andrew Austerfield absolutely right
King Brilliant you must have concrete buttocks and lead legs, hooks for hands and a robot head for that to be true.
What a great, informative listen - thanks for taking the time to present this excellent account - very interesting
Such a great video, im so glad you have work this bubble out👍🏻
You don’t get it - the DEALERS are the ones who enable the flipping, not Porsche! And that won’t change, because the dealers can’t make the kind of margins on a regular 911 as they can on the GT cars.
The margin on all of them is insane, and yes the dealers are enabling it but Porsche can and should reduce it
Agreed but it won't happen because dealers are independent. You can't legally restrict trade.
Ford did it. Ferrari do it.
i would rather pay that margin for a new 991 porsche than ANY new ferrari :D
With the margins that dealers already have on maintenance and service they should absolutely be limited on the front end Gross they make on GT cars. Porsche can easily step in on limited production models but many local dealers have a TREMENDOUS amount of clout and authority in deciding who buys what. At the moment, many dealers are sitting at the root of the issue operating with “The worlds most profitable brand” at their disposal.
Loved this video, the man spoke the truth. Thankyou
I have owned a 16’ 991.1 GTS MT for a year now and absolutely love it! However, Here lately, I have been feeling pressure to upgrade to a GT car for “Investment Purposes”. Your video has confirmed my “Gut Instinct”.. to keep my car, drive it, and enjoy it! What’s the point in owning one of the the best drivers cars and not driving it. Great Video
I am second owner of this almost exact car and I love it and lucky to do it without financing but I did work hard to earn it. I bought it with only 5500 miles at well below retail. It’s crazy that some first owners may have payed way over retail price cash or financing. I really don’t care what turns out for this GT model down the road since I am planning to keep it as long as I can still drive and enjoy every moment of it. Looks, history, sound and performance, the perfect car for me! Great discussion! 👍
Good on you!
Guitar Dad if you can afford a Porsche u don’t need a pension pot lol
I am fortunate to have owned a 991.2 GT3 Touring from new - I now have over 8,000km on it and have loved every minute.
Much more special than the PDK GT3 that I owned previously even if it is slower.
Probably the best manual gearbox that I have ever experienced.
This has been one of the best cars I have ever driven. Drive it!
I have watched 4 of your videos now and absolutely think you make sensational points about them. I find myself agreeing with nearly all of your observations and analysis of the various brands and their pitfalls, not to mention their greatness. As the owner of a 997.2 GT3 RS and a 997.1 GT2 I'm very proud to say that I took advantage of market conditions in buying both pre-owned and thoroughly enjoy driving both cars with higher than average mileage on both. One thing I'd like to point out about all your videos that I have currently seen is that I feel you are making them too long in order to make the relevant points you'd like to make. I mean that in the most constructive way possible too, but I find myself getting 'fatigued' at around the 20 minute mark, and that is coming from someone who TRULY does want to watch your videos. So, my very honest and constructive feedback is to make your great points a bit more quickly, because I do feel that you could be doing that. I'm already subscribed and looking forward to more of your videos! Best wishes to you and thank you for some great content for all of us to enjoy.
10 seconds into the vid and i just wanna say.. damn thats a good looking car!
My thoughts exactly.
Gr8 vid very informative
Thankyou
You must have a BIG kitchen. lol
I find it weird that people will enter into a car purchase/finance transaction expecting to have a car for "free" for a year or three. Especially if you expect to actually drive the car. Cars lose money when you calculate all costs; its very rare and unusual not to (but then you can't drive the car).
Interesting stuff, I enjoyed watching/listening. Great job as always 👍
Thanks Ryan
Very informative video, amazing quality but painful truths there. Cheers
Here here. Same thing here in the states - as I follow the GT2 RS prices that routinely are 20-25% over MSRP
Finally a sensible take on GT values. Have been quietly looking for a 997 GT3 for a while. The reality is that a 991 Turbo S can be bought for the same sort of numbers as a 10 year old car. I know its a very different proposition but on a track its a fast as a 991 GT3 RS and does the daily drive better. A reality check is needed and a 3 year itch needs a rethink!
Jay, excellent, yet depressing video, even though I’ll never be in the market. I’ve heard about this situation, but not in the detail in which you’ve described it. I have a friend with a 997 turbo whom I will send this to as soon as I finish this. Let’s hope Porsche hears this. I have heard that they are concerned about it, but for some inexplicable reason, haven’t contacted me for my opinion. 😏 I also loved your comment about being genetically inclined to moan about things!😂😂😂
Just watched your latest McLaren video and now this; subbed! Fantastic work mate!
Thankyou. You're a fan of the waffle video lol
Porsche product brought back a funny memory. A friend's band were in talks with a record label, they decided not to persue it as the A&R man at the label kept talking about their "product". It's art, man, they exclaimed.
I just bought home a new 992s. Planing on putting 15k-20k miles per year (like my last 991 GTS) and hope to get 5 yrs out of it. I can care-less how much it will sale for. The greatest thing about Porsche is driving, not selling... I feel sorry for anyone who owns a Porsche and don't drive it.
The people that can collect and hold onto these cars will make the real money. I want to actually enjoy the car. Flipping the car for short profits will eventually destroy the market.
Car "investment" bubble...
How does this gentleman not have more subscribers?
Sound rational thought & well spoken should be valued more.
So true about finance! It’s money management and often it can be far more cost effective to purchase via finance than throwing all your money at it.
I'm just happy i just bought a pdk 2015 gt3 for £89k. Love how the work worked out for me. #dreamcar
thank you so much for all your info regarding Porsche GTs. I don't think I will be going to any Porsche dealers to enquire regarding the GT2 RS and go to Aston Martin for the last of the Vanquish. Again many thanks you were spot on in my book.
Thanks so much for this video, this is super valuable information. Subbed!
Happy to be of service
Been looking for a Boxster Spyder for a while now but still trading way over list for 2 - 3 year old cars. Amazed that cars still come on the market with less than 200 miles on the clock which makes your point. If and when I get one it will not be a garage queen but I fully intend to clock up a tonne of mileage enjoying the car on epic road trips. As you say very easy for Porsche to fix the problem but unfortunately its not in the dealer networks interest to do so and therefore I don't expect change anytime soon. PS very informative great video many thanks.
Excellent. Like a Solomandrin / Seen through glass on finance
Totally agree, I have given up with Porsche. They have refused to sell me a car on two occasions because I want to keep and use the car and they want to keep reselling and make their cut on it. They also refused to take a deposit because I was a cash buyer who only wanted a small amount of options on a caymen GTS. Moved on to other brands that aren't so money orientated.
A sadly common story
Wow! What utter s***s!
I’m on my 3rd Porsche so far. All three bought used, and two of which were from non-Porsche dealers. One from a Mercedes dealer, and another from an Acura dealer. In all three cases Someone else took the depreciation loss and I got a great car with no problems and put a lot of miles on happily. Is it the manufacturer you’re giving up on or the dealers that are taking advantage of them and the market? It’s possible to avoid the Porsche dealers and still get these cars. That said I agree with the video regarding the GT series cars. I would love a GT3 but I just want to drive the thing. But here in the states they are finally being advertised for less than sticker. In some cases $20k or $30k less than sticker and with around 18k miles on the clock. And I think there’s a distinction to be made between a car coming back down to its original price and more normal depreciation that occurs from that point onward from age and mileage. When to buy is a factor. I don’t want to pay over sticker, so I wait. And if my car then depreciates even slightly less than average proportional to its original price, and I enjoy the ownership experience, then that is just great. Those who bought a McLaren 12C new on the other hand... may not be very happy.
JayEmm on Cars - Yeah it is, there are exceptions though on a recent trip to the Nürburgring the car park was stuffed full of GT3 RS & GT2 RS so a few do find there way out onto the roads. Thanks for making this kind of video, hopefully if more people / organisations follow it might lead towards some reform.
VisualWarp interesting
A McLaren 12c is a much better car though!?
Nice video. Much needed commentary. I've observed this happening with the GT cars over the last few years as well. It's one thing that has kept me out of both 991 GT3 and the GT4. The prices are inflated and I won't participate with the foolishness. My 997 GTS gets driven like it should... 25k miles in the two years I've owned it.
Great video Jay. Bought a 981 GTS Manual as my first Porsche, love it. Had it 2 years. Really wanted a GT4 but the second hand price over list priced me out. Asked for a new one and dealers seem to fob me off or say I really need to buy more cars from them. It's a shame as it's been a dream to buy a GT car, I love track based cars and getting in track but I feel i will never own one.
I agree entirely, the Porsche market is in very bad shape. In the U.S, people are just confused about what the cars are worth. Cars end up being listed for months or even years just because the owners think they are selling at market without realizing just how fluid the market is. The 996 market has become an investment game with comparable models selling for massive gradients in price. What a shame
It isn't too different here. A GT4 used to sell in moments, now they can sit for months
Great info, love the moaning, I'm a great moaner also. Love your work and detail od your videos Jay. Thumbs up to you Sir. (Still waiting for my Exige S 2 )
Thanks Tom
Interesting observations. I especially liked your comment that the Chief Engineer over the Porsche GT Program is likely disappointed to realize his product is being exchanged as a multi-level profit opportunity, rather than driven by enthusiasts.
Great video. I love the Porsche GT range and hope they start to come down in price a bit instead of going up.
Q1: Since when have mass market cars not depreciated; that the trend should suddenly reverse?....like it or not, Porsche GT cars are still mass market cars; and they should be.
Q2: isn’t it a known fact that cars depreciate the most during the first 24 mths of ownership?
So why is your pal surprised to take a 10 quid hit on a 120 quid car? If he wants to get real “value” for it; he should drive the damn thing, rather than put 5K miles on it.
Finally, to suggest that Porsche should take the same tact as Ferrari and pick and choose its customers based on their purchase history is absurd. What’s next, BMW not agreeing to sell me an M car because I’ve only owned a regular series car?
Well, as mentioned in the video this depreciation/appreciation thing is a new development. The depreciation itself isnt the issue it is the violent and unpredictable level of it that is.
And the key here is, BMW will sell an m4 to anyone with the money for it. But Porsche expect you to have spent a million quid with them to be worthy of a GT car now.
"I'm genetically built to enjoy moaning." That's awesome! But you're moaning is entertaining and often has very valid points. Good thoughts.
Thanks Stephen
Great video...! Situation is crazy now, not just with newish GT models butwith all used Porsches full stop. I.e. from the cheapest 924's up... I've been a Porsche owner/enthusiast for 10+ years now... Sold my last one at Christmas and bought a Lotus. I'm out! I hope the bubble bursts to be honest...!
I suspect it won't for classics but it might for new cars
Good video but it’s a sad truth. It disgusts that people aren’t driving their porches anymore and want to use it for investments. my dream porsche was a 997.2 gt3 but it changed when the gt4 came out the prices are going crazy for these cars. So I now I own my affordable dream car. 987.1 S. I don’t have money for gt cars but I have put 35k miles on my 987S in a year and a half and I could careless what’s its worth and couldn’t be happier. It’s a drivers car something to be enjoyed everyday.
I have a 991.1 GT3 PDK and a 991.2 GT3 manual and they are both great cars. The older car is close to 17k miles and the newer car nearly 3k miles after 6 months, so real usage. I would like a 991.2 GT3 RS but it’s impossible to get one. I’m not the least bit interested in making a profit from them, I buy them to drive them.
Good man!
wow 991 gen porches
(real porsches don't have electric steering and 250kg+ of luxury electronics)
real porsche GT died at the 997 gen with the GT3 and GT3 RS
Adolf Hitler from a dude who will own neither generation.
Miami has a 3RS slot..
Love that car, and looks gorgeous in white. :)
What you said about the Laferrari was true, but McLaren struggled to sell the P1 and Porsche didn't have it so rough you forget they sold 918 units significantly more units than the P1 and Laferrari combined. There was a time the dealers were begging people to purchase P1's before the whole holy trinity hyped occurred and all 3 cars prices spiked (especially the Laferrari).
This was a great video. Keep up the good work.
The dealers are happy to sell to people who are prepared to sell it back to them. It’s a win win for the dealers they usually get to make there profit twice
I would happily lose £20k even though I can’t really afford it on a new gt3, gt3 rs or gt4
Love the vids by the way
Thanks Jonny
True! And one of the reasons why I have said Porsche Centres need to be kept away from the process for as long as production numbers are limited
Unfortunately in the GCC some of the Porsche dealers are colluding with used cars showrooms, who end up getting the quotas of exclusive cars, making the type of premiums you are highlighting in this video...
Porsche Middle East are aware, but turning a blind eye since they only care about achieving their annual budget, without bothering about brand equity or the Porsche enthusiasts...
At the moment I own 3 Porsche, and over the years I owned more than 12 Porsche. However, whenever I reached out to my local dealer to book one of the limited run cars, the answer is always “ sorry, we are receiving only 2 cars, and they have been allocated to the palace”...
Surprise, surprise, after a while most of these cars end up in the second hand market, offered at a hefty premium.... Porsche Middle East, is unintentionally encouraging and nurturing a “Mafia Like” used cars network on the account of real enthusiasts, to simply hit their target... Sad short term approach, and will end up hurting the brand in the long term....
Exactly! I'm also in the ME. I see it here all the time - certain used car dealers selling grossly inflated cars with 0 mileage. Disgraceful, but then car manufacturers are not charities and neither are their dealer network...
Simon Innes Simon, I agree that running a business is all about achieving the goals set by it’s shareholders... What I am asking for is for Porsche to put pressure on the dealers and setup the necessary disciplines to prioritize brand loyalists over a bunch of used cars opportunists...
Why you do not order directly from Germany? Transport should not cost more than 5k.
0Turbox that’s a great point, in the GCC the dealers have an exclusivity agreement with Porsche, and in case you buy elsewhere the after sale service provided exclusively by the dealer, including warranty coverage, becomes a challenge...
In Germany, dealers can't deny you the service under warranty, no matter where you bought a new car, same brand of course.
Yes, I stayed here to the end of the video. Completely agree with you, if you buy it, please enjoy it.
Couldn't agree with you more Sir. About 4 years ago I inquired with my local dealer about getting in line for a GT3 - they would take my deposit but cautioned it was unlikely I would be allocated a car. I didn't mind the 2+yr wait, but with dismal prospects of it going anywhere I chose to put my capital to use elsewhere. Here in Canada, at that time, the GT cars were still quite rare and I speculate the country as whole only got perhaps 25-40 GT cars per year. As you say though, in recent years, and particularly with the GT3RS it was just insanity; suddenly the market was flooding with delivery-milage cars for twice the list price. And more too, like the production was significantly less limited. Still, today there is about equal numbers of GT3RS and GT3s for sale in the country on delivery miles. Here at least, the market hasn't gone soft yet. I don't think they are selling, or at least not quickly, but the sellers haven't dropped their pricing back to Earth. Your point about the UK market perhaps starting to correct is encouraging.
Sadly, and I think you'll appreciate this, Lotus seems to be following suit. We have been Exige/Elise-less for a few years as the V6 models never went through crash certification in North America. The Evora S1 was here, not selling particularly well, and depreciated considerably just rolling off the lot. Along came the Evora 400, in fairly low numbers, and it hasn't sold well either. There are many sitting on dealer lots, and the forums suggest that in the US at least, new cars are moving for significantly less than list. The 410 arrived this year, but our have the same tune as the 400, so it's really a 400 with the carbon boot lid and some fancier suspension. Yet the list price is some 20% above the 400, and above that of the base GT3 (if you could get one and didn't need 20K in options). I can't imagine what they were thinking. Personally I'm done being a P-car fan-boy until things normalize there. I'd love a 410 or 430 (if we get them) but Lotus isn't doing themselves any favours over here. I think they have a real opportunity to win over some disenfranchised P-car people.
TL:DR - Porsche's marketing department has exceeded the ability of their engineers, which is saying a lot. Lotus isn't paying attention.
Cheers, from a fellow genetically-predisposed moaner. Next round's on me.
Dealer is definitely lying to me. That last wrap of charlie was definitely cheap whizz.
Why on earth would a company want to hit owners in the residuals by weeding out investors? Porsche exist TO MAKE MONEY. That is their number one reason for being. They just happen to do it by making awesome cars. They don't care who buys them. IIRC Ford made buyers of the new GT, that were selected in the first place by Ford themselves, sign a contract that meant they couldn't sell them privately within the first two years. No reason Porsche couldn't do similar and yet...
Porsche could easily implement multiple systems to weed out investors and give the car to enthusiasts. But as a business, why would they prevent their car and brand's value to shoot through the sky? Regardless if they are a making money in the used market, it's only a good thing for their cars to have risen in value, for Porsche that is, not so much for long time fans who hope to own one of these cars one day.
I worked in a garage where they had a 18 month old 944 with 112,000 miles on it! It was as tight as a drum to drive. It had been used to run around Europe and all the miles were mainly on long trips.
We struggled to sell it. Eventually went for peanuts.
Great analysis. What has really changed since then is that speculators are getting burned on Gt2rs and 911r bought at $500,000+ and now worth around $350,000, (some as low as $310,000 with almost no miles). A bunch of them at those prices nowadays...
Time for the real enthusiasts to jump back in!
I own my X-Bow for over 11 years now. In that time I‘ve driven over 60.000 km. I think that‘s what it‘s all about. Drive those cars. Enjoy them as long and as much as you can.
Strange how this video just popped up today, after falling out with my "local" Porsche dealer yesterday. I'm lucky enough to have owned a 981 Spyder from new (which was used nearly everyday during the summer) so had a few thousand miles on. Decided though it was time to sell so went to see a few independent specialists, before going back to my dealer (who I have always used for servicing etc) only to be offered, as near as makes no difference, £10k less than any other dealer. When I said that wasn't really good enough I was told that if I didn't accept their offer it would be "very difficult" to get another GT car from them. Now to me that just sounds like a bribe like you mention in your video.
Yep. This is how they do it. "Oh sir wants the NEW one? Then sir will trade in his old car at a piss poor PX"
It gives the brand a bad name. I've always been a porsche guy, but after this I think my business may be going elsewhere.
Don't you mean extortion? Sounds like an old movie line from years ago, "We're going to make you a deal you can't refuse".
You drive a Skoda....
What a random comment 😂
Very interesting video Jay and on the money with your comments. I like Porsche products but I rarely visit their showrooms for the reasons you have mentioned.
People who buy cars as investments or to conserve their value shouldn't be allowed to buy cars 🙂 Cars are decaying as much as EVERYTHING ELSE in the universe, even if you never drive your car, it still gets old, and if anything you're making it worse because the oil, and all of the fluids are not moving at all for YEARS when you buy a 0 miles car you still have to replace pretty much everything, WHAT IS THE POINT IN THAT 🙄🙄🙄
same story goes for watches. Take a look at the Rolox Submariner or AP Royal Oak....
I'd argue the opposite. Rolex keep their models fairly consistent and so prices stay high because people know what a Sub looks like. Now look at Omega. New designs every year and you ask to look at a Seamaster and you get asked "which one". I have a Seamaster, but the most basic kind, because I was told if I ever want to sell it it's the one that everyone associates the name too. Just look at the moon watch. There is a million variants and it just devalues the whole range. You buy a special edition and think you might make some money, but nope.
Or with the Daytona...certain years/variants are nearly impossible to buy even close the original list price.
Really interesting video on a subject I find fascinating.
It's a similar situation, I believe, to expensive watches like Rolex - I just can't understand why there are SO many for sale yet their prices are still sky high!
It's PCP funding that is driving this issue by allowing people to buy cars they cannot really afford, and I think future interest rate rises will start to draw a halt to these issues by affecting the PCP rates. It still amazes me that banks will loan so much money to fund assets that, in the main, will certainly depreciate!
I was in a Porsche showroom today looking at a GT4, and the monthly payments seemed 'quite reasonable', until I pinched myself and realized that I could buy a decent Ferrari F430 or Lambo Gallardo for £10k less! And I know which I would have.
Problem is - the GT4 can be far more easily funded due to it's age, whereas the F430 is too old to get finance on, but ironically less likely to loose money!
It's a crazy market at the moment, but I have a feeling it isn't sustainable for much longer.
You can finance an F430, if you know where to go...
SodenCine Video am i allowed to say i can help with that?
am into watches also, and rolex created a shortage in supply in their sport line, if you want a blue black gmt (aka bataman) you will wait 3 years for one but you can pay premium and get a 'like new' used one. all expensive brands do that ro keep their prices up
Thanks for the replies to my comment. I'm aware that I can get financing on an older car such as the F430, but such deals require the whole cost of the car to be paid for by the end of the agreed term, so the payments will be much higher than a PCP where only part of the value of the car is covered and hence the newer car 'appears to be affordable' even though its considerably higher in price. In which case the real hit comes at the trade in time which is what the owner of the car in the video is experiencing.
That's not true. There are ways of financing older cars with more traditional finance. You just gotta know the right people
You're right on. I want one. I think I can save enough in a couple of years to buy one but can't b/c of the 2nd hand markups. Cars like these should be valued but should be bought as toys, not speculative garage queens for a quick buck later.
As Richard Porter said 'If you want a nice investment, just buy a bloody painting, not a supercar.'
Top video James one of your best ..so good to hear someone with real knowledge and not some giggling twit ..not naming any anyone in particular lol...oh by the way listen to led Zeppelin
Real knowledge, hmm? I don't know what a ,"Porsh", is but the car he is next to, certainly isn't what he keeps calling it. Europeans usually know how to say, Por-sha! Is he an American with a fake British accent? Has he never stepped foot in a Porsche dealer? When he walks in do they roll their eyes and say here comes that youtube guy that keeps mangling the name one of the automotive world's oldest, most venerated icons, as he snacks on their complimentary condiments?
I want a 991.1 GTS, PDK, RWD but they just don’t drop in price. So frustrating.
err...here comes the bearer of bad tidings...so i moved from "sunny" N,Ireland to actually sunny so-cal. Bought a 2013 Carrera S in 2016, well optioned,sport chrono ,all the perf options and more with 31xxx miles in dry salt free so cal roads and dealer maintained.......for $70000 OTD/55000-ish pounds. Still pinching myself.
Good quality content thanks 🙏🏻
Jay you totally nailed it. I own 997.1 Turbo and many I talk to believe the 997 is next best investment in the Porsche 911 line. The primary reason being it’s considered the last “small” 911. Kind of like the 993 for obvious reasons, although certainly not on the same scale. The 993 prices are just crazy but I guess if you’re a purest it’s the only acceptable version. I don’t put a ton of miles on my Turbo as it’s still under 50k miles and at 12 years old that’s not too bad. But I bought the car to drive it. The are few things more enjoyable than jumping into the 911 on sunny warm winter day and hitting the back roads. It puts a smile on your face and makes that monthly payment worth every penny.