A good example of bizarro would be “Blazing Saddles” and “Monty Phython’s Quest for the Holy Grail” that you mention in this video otherwise - Comedy does great in this setting. It seems to work best to me when it comes out of nowhere for a laugh, like in these examples. Great stuff!
I always thought of Star Wars as a soap opera in a fantasy setting. Members of the same family fighting in between themselves - reminds me a lot of Santa Barbara.
While Earth is irrelevant in the world of Dune, their whole culture is a mixture of the present ones, the Orange Catholic Bible is a great example for that. And they aren't just for decoration, the story builds strongly on these cultural influences. Also, rarely, but the story reflects on the history of the real history of Earth, like for example I clearly remember Paul Atreides comparing his jihad to WW2 and himself to Hitler (somewhere in the second book). The transition from the present state of the world into the world of Dune is quite detailed, without huge breaches of continuity even where information is scarce.
Btw. I think darth vader in a medieval fantasy could work. Maybe before he meets luke on the 6th movie he was teleported to a fantasy world by a mysterious being. He is unable to find food and maintain his armor so the story is about him trying to survive in this new world. Mabe even finding peace and going back to the ways of the jedi after meeting a local. Then he has to find a way to get back and when he does find a way to get back, he has to leave the local that changed him which could be a final test for him being the chosen one. Would he follow the way of the jedi and discard his feelings and friendship or fall back to the dark side and let his emotions rule his gudgement. It could be a really good spinoff.
You can use the term 'verisimilitude' to refere to events being plausible within their context. So adding implausible elements like dragons crosses the line towards the fantasy realm, but everything else can still be verisimil
i recommend the amber books by roger zelazny (grr martins fav writer btw), it gets better and better, best story-concept i ever encountered. its kind of like fantasy-matrix, that really shows the potential of the fantasy-genre.
The bizzaro reminded me of Gulio Questi. This italian director is famous for making 3 surreal movies in 1960s. I like his Django Kill... If You Live Shoot (/watch?v=lfn5OyMnC1Q), a horror western that includes things like resurrection, shooting with golden bullets, crucifixion, gore effects, gay bandits, etc.... There are plenty of weird things going on. The movie is well shot, atmospherical and thought-provoking. Though I'm neither fan of bizzaro it managed to keep my attention.
+kkarx Bizarro can actually be quite fascinating, but it can be difficult to keep the reader/viewer's attention after the initial shock of what you are doing. _The Gunslinger_ by Stephen King (the first book in the dark tower series) has a definite Bizarro feel (thought as the series goes on it is more of a fantasy/horror setting) to it and for me it was very captivating. That's because there was still solid conflict, even when very strange things were happening.
Also, Dune is really odd piece of Science-Fiction, as you correctly pointed out. The most broken concept (as far as science goes), at least for me, is the idea of shared memories of Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers. Its Lamarckian evolution on steroids. Basically magic. The concept itself is very interesting, though. I'm huge Dune fan. I wouldn't go as far as call it Fantasy, though. I would call it soft SF. In my opinion the purpose of Fantasy and SF differs and the demarcation line should be judged by intentions of the author. SF is really about exploring consequences of technological evolution and extremes of "human condition". That is, it should put characters in situations not available or impossible at present, like in setting of interstellar travel, unnatural longevity, biological and social reconstructions, etc. That Dune does in grand style, which others copy but fail to surpass. Therefore Dune is SF, even though the focus is neither on science nor on technology.
+Filip Blaschke I agree with you, especially about what defines the genre of scifi. I do think Dune is scifi both in its setting (the context of this video) and its genre, but I do feel like it pushes the boundaries. Interesting that a book from the 1960s can still do that, but that speaks to Frank Herbert's unique vision.
+Filip Blaschke i really enjoyed the encyclopedias of dune, full of crazy ideas. herbert even explained an alternate menstruation cycle for fremen-women fe, because of desert and moisture.. crazy. those shared memories are supposed to be genetic btw, the bg wanted to foster a man that is conscious like a bg, but also has access to the male y-chromosome-memories. its kind of a chemical wedding thing. and the whole dune culture avoids science, because there was a huge ai threat in the past (and is still around, where the sith-bgs came from) therefore the importance of the golden path. so there is a science-fiction backround, and dune culture is an antithesis to that.
Hi David. Always nice to watch your video. I have seen your comments on Star Wars Force Awakens and I was wondering if you could do similar video on Star Trek Into Darkness. Especially on the plot, since it seemed to be disjointed mess (or am I the only one who think so?). Or video about other Star Trek films. Anyway, to the issues raised in this video, I would argue that Alternative reality, if done properly, is really science fiction, because the concept of alternative reality itself has firm roots in contemporary physics. But again, it must be done with care. Thanks.
I would says Star Wars is a Space-themed High Fantasy. -The force recquire energy which could warm the item on which the user is controlling. It is a psychic ability, impossible to do in real life. -In space, the time is slower than being on a planet yet character still have the same age in the both place. Look at Twin Paradox. -The light saber need a "stick" to hold the laser and cuting limb doesn't bleed. -The planet should have multiple climates than just one (ocean, forest, ice, desert) and geology modification, like tide, terra-forming, earth-quake, winds... -When a species grown up, it change its attribute in his environnement, much like natural selection... Does it apply to humans? -It's impossible a solar system with two suns. The twin sun is an illusion effect in real-life. China saw this. -They don't need training before reaching space. -On Tatouinne, they get water to survive. Water is the main need of living being BUT how did they transport water? Teleportation or multiple voyage to get them? -How a pure forest-themed planet grown without water? If we have an Ice-themed planet, the ice didn't melt under the sunlight. Star Wars didn't apply science-physic, thus make it High Fantasy in space. It can't be Science-Fiction.
Where would you stick dystopia fiction such as, THX1138, No Blade of Grass, Brave New World, 1984, Soylent Green, Omega Man, This Quiet Earth, Mad Max etc. or are they simply belonging to their own category of dystopia fiction. Also alien invasion stories, mainly thinking of my favourite book War of The Worlds where H.G. Wells predicted a lot of tech that we know have like mechanised warfare, Ariel warfare, chemical and biological warfare. Also In WOTW Wells used the book to put his views against imperialism, religion, society and class which is what the book is really about. So is War of the Worlds sci fi or politics? May be its fantasy as many of his concepts would be regarded as magical back in 1897. Sorry for commenting on an old thread but I have just discovered you and going through your back catalogue as I write sci fi/fantasy but yet to finish anything and have a degree in mil history so I find what you say really interesting. Your opinions would be appreciated.
What if you have a story that is bizarro-esque but fits better in one of the other genre's? My example being the "John Dies at the End" series, they are Low Fantasy, but the way the fantasy elements are portrayed comes across as bizarro-y (communicating via hotdog being one example). Would that be purely labelled as bizarro or low fantasy? Or a hybrid? (I.e. Low Fantasy Bizarro)
+TheVinesLog For me, when talking about SETTING (not genre) the line between the two has to do with the expectations about how the world works. In fantasy, those expectations are fairly consistent. The reader has an idea of how things work, and expects when somebody drops something that it falls to the floor. Bizarro as a setting doesn't adhere to expectations and will usually continually challenge them. You drop something and it may float up toward the ceiling. In _John Dies at the End_ there are lots of things that do that. That's a roundabout way of saying that I consider the setting Bizarro. The whole story is about challenging expectations. It doesn't fit neatly into the genre (maybe it is a hybrid as you suggest), but the nonsense of all the events makes me think of Bizarro for sure. All this is just a way of viewing things - labels are always limited. Bizarro settings have an effect, like keeping the reader on edge or constantly guessing, and that setting works very well in horror or other strange tales.
I can see I might be a little late for the show, but could somebody define for me what category Jasper Fforde's Thursday Next series would fall into? This definition of categories was pretty comprehensive, but those books have so many elements, alternate history, sort of magic, yet set in the sort of real world.. Is that low fantasy or bizarro already?
awww so my story will be all fantasy, i wanted to start with fictional world, to which reader could relate, and then, over the 5 books, transition into science fiction of future.
Glad that you also like Lego! Here's a link to some Lego things I made (planning a huge castle for that very wizard and dragon! My favourite minifigure as a kid! Was always attracted to the wizard archetype) www.flickr.com/photos/guidomartinbrandis/
Have to disagree with the placement of Alternate History in fantasy because it normally revolves around an outcome being different and that is what leads to the alternate history. Since this is normally by mundane means (usually just the outcome of a single battle going different), it doesn't follow anything fantastical. It is completely plausible that it could have had a different outcome, so it seems better placed in the Historical Fiction as a sub category. And I agree that Star Wars is High Fantasy.
Please tell me you made the first two books for bizarro up. Because the haunted vagina okay, but assgoblin of Auschwitz? Holy guacamole. Sounds like something i should completely tape off so nobody can read the title if i ever read that. (I'm from Germany. Could get me a whole lot of trouble reading something with that title if it is even available here.)
I have a question for you. I am currently working on a fantasy/science fiction(yes, it's kind of a blend) setting and I'm getting bogged down in the minutia. How big is the map I'm working with and is it the whole world? How many settlements, how big is the population, how many cultures and religions are there? How long is the history? What is the ecology like? What kinds of tools do they use? How is society set up? The more I answer these questions the more questions seem to arise. How far should I go with devising all of these details before it's gratuitous and unnecessary? I am trying to make a world that feels real and has a history and lore. I want everything to be consistent, but the longer I work on this stuff, the more it feels like I'll never even start writing the actual story.
Always work out the big stuff - what shapes the world, who runs it, how is it organized. Details are best left to serve the needs of the plot. I usually draw maps after I write the book, not before, because my world-building is there to serve the needs of the story. If farmers use special tools, for example, but the protagonist (say, a bard or something) doesn't think they are special, he won't notice them and his perspective won't focus much on them. Likewise if the tools aren't important for the plot it is safe to omit them. A good rule of thumb is to world build what can be described in a single sentence. _He picked up his sword, shaped like a long reverse-edged sickle, a relic of the Badisha empire and it's hatred of straight lines in all forms._
David Stewart Thank you for the fast reply. I discovered your stuff recently and its inspired me to get into writing again. The story I'm working on feels like it may be too big a bite to take for my first long form story, but I've always wanted to have my own setting with a lot of history and lore. I just drew a map and labeled locales yesterday. You think that's too far and I should just get into writing it. I'm rambling. Anyway, Thanks for your input and your content!
I agree that Star Wars is not science fiction; but is fantasy on the same level of Lord of the Rings. In theory, true science fiction should have a scientific explanation (or at least an attempt at a scientific explanation) for every fantastic element in the story. For example, Star Trek has faster-than-light travel and transporters, but those are explained as highly advanced technology, not magic. With Star Wars, no attempt is ever made to scientifically explain the Force, with the exception of midichlorians, but those were just receptors for the Force - and used only as a plot device in the films - and they never explained how the Force worked or where it came from.
6:50 What if the world is simply one of the worlds in the galaxy far away? The Wizard is a force user, dragons exist in the Star Wars universe, and Luke and Vader show up on the planet. Fantasy and not Bizarro !!
I absolutely do not agree about low and high fanrasy. High fantasy can take place in our world, if intensity of fantasy elements is high enough, for example, war of gods in new york will be high
Even though there are demons and crap, it is explained in so much detail how the technology and "magic" work, that it is on the sci-fi end of the spectrum.
if I got David Stewart's point right, then it's not about explaining the fictional elements, rather, it's about the origins of the fictional world. a sci-fi world originates from our world, while a fantasy world is completely new. that's the 'science' part of sci-fi - everything works according to the laws of our contemporary reality.
High/Low fantasy doesn't refer to whether or not the author imposes some moral system upon the reader, it's about how much of the fiction world deviates from the rules of our actual world.
how a new animal is fantasy and not just a biological fiction? at 4:40 its still fictional animal than fantasy, in our real world we have (comodo) dragons :v 5:09 wizzard, still, you dont use word MAGIC, so it can be still just fictional character that does normal stuff that simply others dont understand
Where is your character in your lego set? You have a women knight, now you have to include a black token character for diversity. /s So as a writer do you feel pressure to include character to fit the current political climate? You also mentioned that Dune is pushing the boundary of science fiction into fantasy. What do you think the boundaries are between science fiction and fantasy then? To me any story that has to do with science, technology, the interaction between science, technology and humans, either as a background theme or a foreground story plot is science fiction. The setting of the story doesn't matter.
+TentaclePentacle First off, I don't feel any pressure of any kind. I write exactly what I want regardless of any political climate. As far as a female knight, it's something a bit out of the ordinary, but not implausible in our world as you had women like Joan of Arc. The Dragon becomes implausible and moves the story into fantasy. You touched on something important, though, which is the idea that you have to include market demands for character types in your story. You can choose to, or you can choose not to. Maybe Rey was a woman and Finn was a black male in the new Star Wars movie because of marketing reasons, but to the story those attributes are irrelevant. Finn as a black human has no special racial characteristics in a galaxy full of aliens. Rey has no female perspective - her sex is literally only an aesthetic choice. Cast a male in the same role and nothing in the story changes. Cast a white woman as Finn and literally nothing changes. I'm of the opinion that a character ought to represent a perspective that is in harmony with their world. If you want to write a female protagonist, great, but you should make her have a perspective that is different from a male if you are going to make a big deal out of her sex. If you are going to make a point to make a character black, then he ought to represent some perspective to that race. A black man in America can have a special perspective, but a black man in Kenya is just a man, no need to make a point of his race when it isn't relevant. Dune pushes the boundaries of SciFi in the sense that Earth is like a memory and there is lots of magic within a technological setting, which I usually associate with genre fantasy. The setting is definitely scifi in this context.
+David Stewart Well I have to disagree with you on the part of science fiction needs to be anchored to Earth. Asimov is known to write hard science fiction, he have written stories about alien civilizations that have nothing to do with Earth. Those stories would be fantasy under your paradigm. If someone would to write a story about silicon based life evolving on a planet that could support such life forms, using all the science on chemistry, biology, evolution, to explain how such a life could evolve. They would even use astrology, geology to explain how such a planet can form to such a silicon based life. The story would even go into the econ system to show how such life can exist, what they breath, what they eat, and for silicon life to evolve into sentient life. Would that story be fantasy, because it have nothing to do with Earth, not even a distant memory?
+TentaclePentacle Don't get too bogged down in the labels. I'm talking about setting in this context, so science fiction as a setting type generally means "the future" since it contains elements that are implausible in our present. Each setting usually delivers something unique, so its better to evaluate individual works as individual works instead of worrying about what classification you are fitting into.
TentaclePentacle Science Fiction and Fantasy are on a spectrum. Pure Science Fiction is one extreme, pure Fanta the other. Look at Star Wars and Star Trek. Both settings are the same on the surface. You have spaceships, rayguns and even people with weird powers. The difference is how these things are treated in the story. Star Trek explains its technology and powers. The technology as a long set of rules. It is explained how ships go faster than light and what the transporter can and can not beam through. Telepathic powers are a trait of certain species and it is the same for the entire species. Star Wars is on the other end of the spectrum. All we know about blasters is that they blast things. Ships go hyperspace by pushing a button and that is it. We do not even know how the scale hyperspeed is measured on is called or how long it takes to travel a certain distance. It is the same with the Force that drives everything. All we know is that it is some kind of energy field some people tap into. And because of the way Star Wars is told, we do not really need to know those things. That is why it was foolish to explain the force comes from microbes or that the Death Star weapon uses lightsaber crystals.
You're conflating "low fantasy" with "urban fantasy." Most people define low fantasy as non-epic... so, like, instead of trying to save the world by throwing a ring into the crack of doom, Conan wants to steal a necklace from a tower to get some money. Obviously you can make your own definitions, but that's what people usually mean.
Also there's usually less magic. Like Game of Thrones is low fantasy, even though it's not our world. Harry Potter is high fantasy - hero's journey, save the world, heavy magic.
you do lots of category argumentation. "mythology is low fantasy"... no. mythology is the definition of high fantasy. new races? magic? metaphysics? chimeric species? implausible techno-babble plot devices? do they rely upon them? "whether starwars is science fiction or fantasy" star wars is a soap opera.
A good example of bizarro would be “Blazing Saddles” and “Monty Phython’s Quest for the Holy Grail” that you mention in this video otherwise - Comedy does great in this setting. It seems to work best to me when it comes out of nowhere for a laugh, like in these examples.
Great stuff!
Love these 90s medieval Legos brings my childhood back seeing them lol
Luke Skywalker with an M-16 which has a WW1 era bayonet fixed to it.
I always thought of Star Wars as a soap opera in a fantasy setting. Members of the same family fighting in between themselves - reminds me a lot of Santa Barbara.
Great video, thanks for the storycraft series. I was wondering, is Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy a Bizzaro?
While Earth is irrelevant in the world of Dune, their whole culture is a mixture of the present ones, the Orange Catholic Bible is a great example for that. And they aren't just for decoration, the story builds strongly on these cultural influences.
Also, rarely, but the story reflects on the history of the real history of Earth, like for example I clearly remember Paul Atreides comparing his jihad to WW2 and himself to Hitler (somewhere in the second book).
The transition from the present state of the world into the world of Dune is quite detailed, without huge breaches of continuity even where information is scarce.
Luke with an m16..... dude, I legit LOL’d so hard! I really enjoy your work and videos. 👌
Btw. I think darth vader in a medieval fantasy could work. Maybe before he meets luke on the 6th movie he was teleported to a fantasy world by a mysterious being. He is unable to find food and maintain his armor so the story is about him trying to survive in this new world. Mabe even finding peace and going back to the ways of the jedi after meeting a local. Then he has to find a way to get back and when he does find a way to get back, he has to leave the local that changed him which could be a final test for him being the chosen one. Would he follow the way of the jedi and discard his feelings and friendship or fall back to the dark side and let his emotions rule his gudgement. It could be a really good spinoff.
Sounds like a cool story. Bizarre, but cool.
Dragons don't exist? T_T
Sorry :(
4:35 unless it's Skyrim! then the characters are shocked when dragons appear haha
You can use the term 'verisimilitude' to refere to events being plausible within their context. So adding implausible elements like dragons crosses the line towards the fantasy realm, but everything else can still be verisimil
Thank you for knowing Wales
Thanks for the second part! If you made a 3rd part, it would be really great.
+knight2battle I will. It's definitely coming. Right now I have about 8 parts planned, maybe more.
i recommend the amber books by roger zelazny (grr martins fav writer btw), it gets better and better, best story-concept i ever encountered. its kind of like fantasy-matrix, that really shows the potential of the fantasy-genre.
The bizzaro reminded me of Gulio Questi. This italian director is famous for making 3 surreal movies in 1960s. I like his Django Kill... If You Live Shoot (/watch?v=lfn5OyMnC1Q), a horror western that includes things like resurrection, shooting with golden bullets, crucifixion, gore effects, gay bandits, etc.... There are plenty of weird things going on. The movie is well shot, atmospherical and thought-provoking. Though I'm neither fan of bizzaro it managed to keep my attention.
+kkarx Bizarro can actually be quite fascinating, but it can be difficult to keep the reader/viewer's attention after the initial shock of what you are doing. _The Gunslinger_ by Stephen King (the first book in the dark tower series) has a definite Bizarro feel (thought as the series goes on it is more of a fantasy/horror setting) to it and for me it was very captivating. That's because there was still solid conflict, even when very strange things were happening.
Also, Dune is really odd piece of Science-Fiction, as you correctly pointed out. The most broken concept (as far as science goes), at least for me, is the idea of shared memories of Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers. Its Lamarckian evolution on steroids. Basically magic. The concept itself is very interesting, though. I'm huge Dune fan. I wouldn't go as far as call it Fantasy, though. I would call it soft SF. In my opinion the purpose of Fantasy and SF differs and the demarcation line should be judged by intentions of the author. SF is really about exploring consequences of technological evolution and extremes of "human condition". That is, it should put characters in situations not available or impossible at present, like in setting of interstellar travel, unnatural longevity, biological and social reconstructions, etc. That Dune does in grand style, which others copy but fail to surpass. Therefore Dune is SF, even though the focus is neither on science nor on technology.
+Filip Blaschke I agree with you, especially about what defines the genre of scifi. I do think Dune is scifi both in its setting (the context of this video) and its genre, but I do feel like it pushes the boundaries. Interesting that a book from the 1960s can still do that, but that speaks to Frank Herbert's unique vision.
+Filip Blaschke i really enjoyed the encyclopedias of dune, full of crazy ideas. herbert even explained an alternate menstruation cycle for fremen-women fe, because of desert and moisture.. crazy. those shared memories are supposed to be genetic btw, the bg wanted to foster a man that is conscious like a bg, but also has access to the male y-chromosome-memories. its kind of a chemical wedding thing.
and the whole dune culture avoids science, because there was a huge ai threat in the past (and is still around, where the sith-bgs came from) therefore the importance of the golden path. so there is a science-fiction backround, and dune culture is an antithesis to that.
Hi David. Always nice to watch your video. I have seen your comments on Star Wars Force Awakens and I was wondering if you could do similar video on Star Trek Into Darkness. Especially on the plot, since it seemed to be disjointed mess (or am I the only one who think so?). Or video about other Star Trek films. Anyway, to the issues raised in this video, I would argue that Alternative reality, if done properly, is really science fiction, because the concept of alternative reality itself has firm roots in contemporary physics. But again, it must be done with care. Thanks.
+Filip Blaschke Thanks for watching! I did a little funny vid on Into Darkness, but I could do a full analysis I suppose.
You've entered the fantasy section when you introduced a female knight.
I would says Star Wars is a Space-themed High Fantasy.
-The force recquire energy which could warm the item on which the user is controlling. It is a psychic ability, impossible to do in real life.
-In space, the time is slower than being on a planet yet character still have the same age in the both place. Look at Twin Paradox.
-The light saber need a "stick" to hold the laser and cuting limb doesn't bleed.
-The planet should have multiple climates than just one (ocean, forest, ice, desert) and geology modification, like tide, terra-forming, earth-quake, winds...
-When a species grown up, it change its attribute in his environnement, much like natural selection... Does it apply to humans?
-It's impossible a solar system with two suns. The twin sun is an illusion effect in real-life. China saw this.
-They don't need training before reaching space.
-On Tatouinne, they get water to survive. Water is the main need of living being BUT how did they transport water? Teleportation or multiple voyage to get them?
-How a pure forest-themed planet grown without water? If we have an Ice-themed planet, the ice didn't melt under the sunlight.
Star Wars didn't apply science-physic, thus make it High Fantasy in space. It can't be Science-Fiction.
Where would you stick dystopia fiction such as, THX1138, No Blade of Grass, Brave New World, 1984, Soylent Green, Omega Man, This Quiet Earth, Mad Max etc. or are they simply belonging to their own category of dystopia fiction. Also alien invasion stories, mainly thinking of my favourite book War of The Worlds where H.G. Wells predicted a lot of tech that we know have like mechanised warfare, Ariel warfare, chemical and biological warfare. Also In WOTW Wells used the book to put his views against imperialism, religion, society and class which is what the book is really about. So is War of the Worlds sci fi or politics? May be its fantasy as many of his concepts would be regarded as magical back in 1897. Sorry for commenting on an old thread but I have just discovered you and going through your back catalogue as I write sci fi/fantasy but yet to finish anything and have a degree in mil history so I find what you say really interesting. Your opinions would be appreciated.
Comments section: pat yourselves on your collective backs! Great discussions!
What if you have a story that is bizarro-esque but fits better in one of the other genre's? My example being the "John Dies at the End" series, they are Low Fantasy, but the way the fantasy elements are portrayed comes across as bizarro-y (communicating via hotdog being one example). Would that be purely labelled as bizarro or low fantasy? Or a hybrid? (I.e. Low Fantasy Bizarro)
+TheVinesLog For me, when talking about SETTING (not genre) the line between the two has to do with the expectations about how the world works. In fantasy, those expectations are fairly consistent. The reader has an idea of how things work, and expects when somebody drops something that it falls to the floor. Bizarro as a setting doesn't adhere to expectations and will usually continually challenge them. You drop something and it may float up toward the ceiling. In _John Dies at the End_ there are lots of things that do that.
That's a roundabout way of saying that I consider the setting Bizarro. The whole story is about challenging expectations. It doesn't fit neatly into the genre (maybe it is a hybrid as you suggest), but the nonsense of all the events makes me think of Bizarro for sure. All this is just a way of viewing things - labels are always limited. Bizarro settings have an effect, like keeping the reader on edge or constantly guessing, and that setting works very well in horror or other strange tales.
I can see I might be a little late for the show, but could somebody define for me what category Jasper Fforde's Thursday Next series would fall into?
This definition of categories was pretty comprehensive, but those books have so many elements, alternate history, sort of magic, yet set in the sort of real world.. Is that low fantasy or bizarro already?
awww so my story will be all fantasy, i wanted to start with fictional world, to which reader could relate, and then, over the 5 books, transition into science fiction of future.
Then do that? Nothing here was telling you not to write it. Genres are boxes that you put the story in afterwards not as you write.
Glad that you also like Lego! Here's a link to some Lego things I made (planning a huge castle for that very wizard and dragon! My favourite minifigure as a kid! Was always attracted to the wizard archetype)
www.flickr.com/photos/guidomartinbrandis/
So marvel is bazzaro.
Thats good to know.
Have to disagree with the placement of Alternate History in fantasy because it normally revolves around an outcome being different and that is what leads to the alternate history. Since this is normally by mundane means (usually just the outcome of a single battle going different), it doesn't follow anything fantastical. It is completely plausible that it could have had a different outcome, so it seems better placed in the Historical Fiction as a sub category. And I agree that Star Wars is High Fantasy.
Please tell me you made the first two books for bizarro up. Because the haunted vagina okay, but assgoblin of Auschwitz? Holy guacamole. Sounds like something i should completely tape off so nobody can read the title if i ever read that. (I'm from Germany. Could get me a whole lot of trouble reading something with that title if it is even available here.)
I have a question for you. I am currently working on a fantasy/science fiction(yes, it's kind of a blend) setting and I'm getting bogged down in the minutia. How big is the map I'm working with and is it the whole world? How many settlements, how big is the population, how many cultures and religions are there? How long is the history? What is the ecology like? What kinds of tools do they use? How is society set up?
The more I answer these questions the more questions seem to arise. How far should I go with devising all of these details before it's gratuitous and unnecessary? I am trying to make a world that feels real and has a history and lore. I want everything to be consistent, but the longer I work on this stuff, the more it feels like I'll never even start writing the actual story.
Always work out the big stuff - what shapes the world, who runs it, how is it organized. Details are best left to serve the needs of the plot. I usually draw maps after I write the book, not before, because my world-building is there to serve the needs of the story. If farmers use special tools, for example, but the protagonist (say, a bard or something) doesn't think they are special, he won't notice them and his perspective won't focus much on them. Likewise if the tools aren't important for the plot it is safe to omit them.
A good rule of thumb is to world build what can be described in a single sentence.
_He picked up his sword, shaped like a long reverse-edged sickle, a relic of the Badisha empire and it's hatred of straight lines in all forms._
David Stewart
Thank you for the fast reply. I discovered your stuff recently and its inspired me to get into writing again.
The story I'm working on feels like it may be too big a bite to take for my first long form story, but I've always wanted to have my own setting with a lot of history and lore.
I just drew a map and labeled locales yesterday. You think that's too far and I should just get into writing it.
I'm rambling. Anyway,
Thanks for your input and your content!
But if Vader is from a fantasy world maybe he went back in a time before the technology took over and the police man is from a parallel universe?
Bizarro.
I agree that Star Wars is not science fiction; but is fantasy on the same level of Lord of the Rings. In theory, true science fiction should have a scientific explanation (or at least an attempt at a scientific explanation) for every fantastic element in the story. For example, Star Trek has faster-than-light travel and transporters, but those are explained as highly advanced technology, not magic. With Star Wars, no attempt is ever made to scientifically explain the Force, with the exception of midichlorians, but those were just receptors for the Force - and used only as a plot device in the films - and they never explained how the Force worked or where it came from.
6:50
What if the world is simply one of the worlds in the galaxy far away?
The Wizard is a force user, dragons exist in the Star Wars universe, and Luke and Vader show up on the planet. Fantasy and not Bizarro !!
theres a comic like that
So would Matrix and Inception fall under the catagory of Bizarro, or a mix of Science Fiction and High (Matrix)/Low (Inception) Fantasy?
Bizarro is something other than fantasy, where things are completely divorced from reality and may lack any attempted sense of internal consistency.
Is gundam high or low fantasy/
So would bizarro be something like Looney tunes, tom and jerry etc? There's absolutely no consistency in terms of internal logic
Where do you think the bulk of Lovecraftian stories fall?
"Low" fantasy as a setting.
Star wars was always high fantasy, just ask George Lucas
What the creator says is irrellevant
I absolutely do not agree about low and high fanrasy. High fantasy can take place in our world, if intensity of fantasy elements is high enough, for example, war of gods in new york will be high
what about Warhammer 40k? is it sci-fi or fantasy?
Even though there are demons and crap, it is explained in so much detail how the technology and "magic" work, that it is on the sci-fi end of the spectrum.
if I got David Stewart's point right, then it's not about explaining the fictional elements, rather, it's about the origins of the fictional world. a sci-fi world originates from our world, while a fantasy world is completely new. that's the 'science' part of sci-fi - everything works according to the laws of our contemporary reality.
Warhammer 40k is high fantasy
I don't think morality should be a factor in determining if something is sci-fi or fantasy
High/Low fantasy doesn't refer to whether or not the author imposes some moral system upon the reader, it's about how much of the fiction world deviates from the rules of our actual world.
Wheel of Time should be low fa
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuh LOTR is a documentary filmed in realtime
how a new animal is fantasy and not just a biological fiction? at 4:40 its still fictional animal than fantasy, in our real world we have (comodo) dragons :v 5:09 wizzard, still, you dont use word MAGIC, so it can be still just fictional character that does normal stuff that simply others dont understand
Where is your character in your lego set? You have a women knight, now you have to include a black token character for diversity. /s
So as a writer do you feel pressure to include character to fit the current political climate?
You also mentioned that Dune is pushing the boundary of science fiction into fantasy. What do you think the boundaries are between science fiction and fantasy then? To me any story that has to do with science, technology, the interaction between science, technology and humans, either as a background theme or a foreground story plot is science fiction. The setting of the story doesn't matter.
+TentaclePentacle First off, I don't feel any pressure of any kind. I write exactly what I want regardless of any political climate. As far as a female knight, it's something a bit out of the ordinary, but not implausible in our world as you had women like Joan of Arc. The Dragon becomes implausible and moves the story into fantasy.
You touched on something important, though, which is the idea that you have to include market demands for character types in your story. You can choose to, or you can choose not to. Maybe Rey was a woman and Finn was a black male in the new Star Wars movie because of marketing reasons, but to the story those attributes are irrelevant. Finn as a black human has no special racial characteristics in a galaxy full of aliens. Rey has no female perspective - her sex is literally only an aesthetic choice. Cast a male in the same role and nothing in the story changes. Cast a white woman as Finn and literally nothing changes.
I'm of the opinion that a character ought to represent a perspective that is in harmony with their world. If you want to write a female protagonist, great, but you should make her have a perspective that is different from a male if you are going to make a big deal out of her sex. If you are going to make a point to make a character black, then he ought to represent some perspective to that race. A black man in America can have a special perspective, but a black man in Kenya is just a man, no need to make a point of his race when it isn't relevant.
Dune pushes the boundaries of SciFi in the sense that Earth is like a memory and there is lots of magic within a technological setting, which I usually associate with genre fantasy. The setting is definitely scifi in this context.
+David Stewart
Well I have to disagree with you on the part of science fiction needs to be anchored to Earth. Asimov is known to write hard science fiction, he have written stories about alien civilizations that have nothing to do with Earth. Those stories would be fantasy under your paradigm. If someone would to write a story about silicon based life evolving on a planet that could support such life forms, using all the science on chemistry, biology, evolution, to explain how such a life could evolve. They would even use astrology, geology to explain how such a planet can form to such a silicon based life. The story would even go into the econ system to show how such life can exist, what they breath, what they eat, and for silicon life to evolve into sentient life. Would that story be fantasy, because it have nothing to do with Earth, not even a distant memory?
+TentaclePentacle Don't get too bogged down in the labels. I'm talking about setting in this context, so science fiction as a setting type generally means "the future" since it contains elements that are implausible in our present. Each setting usually delivers something unique, so its better to evaluate individual works as individual works instead of worrying about what classification you are fitting into.
+David Stewart
Well my point is SF doesn't have to about the future, it can also be about the present, or the past.
TentaclePentacle
Science Fiction and Fantasy are on a spectrum. Pure Science Fiction is one extreme, pure Fanta the other.
Look at Star Wars and Star Trek. Both settings are the same on the surface. You have spaceships, rayguns and even people with weird powers. The difference is how these things are treated in the story. Star Trek explains its technology and powers. The technology as a long set of rules. It is explained how ships go faster than light and what the transporter can and can not beam through. Telepathic powers are a trait of certain species and it is the same for the entire species.
Star Wars is on the other end of the spectrum. All we know about blasters is that they blast things. Ships go hyperspace by pushing a button and that is it. We do not even know how the scale hyperspeed is measured on is called or how long it takes to travel a certain distance. It is the same with the Force that drives everything. All we know is that it is some kind of energy field some people tap into. And because of the way Star Wars is told, we do not really need to know those things. That is why it was foolish to explain the force comes from microbes or that the Death Star weapon uses lightsaber crystals.
You're conflating "low fantasy" with "urban fantasy." Most people define low fantasy as non-epic... so, like, instead of trying to save the world by throwing a ring into the crack of doom, Conan wants to steal a necklace from a tower to get some money.
Obviously you can make your own definitions, but that's what people usually mean.
Also there's usually less magic. Like Game of Thrones is low fantasy, even though it's not our world. Harry Potter is high fantasy - hero's journey, save the world, heavy magic.
Hero's journey is an archetypal arc; It can exist with, let's say, a realistic setting.
Urban fantasy is a genre, low fantasy is a setting type. Contemporary fantasy shares the same setting type, but with different tropes.
you do lots of category argumentation.
"mythology is low fantasy"... no. mythology is the definition of high fantasy. new races? magic? metaphysics? chimeric species? implausible techno-babble plot devices? do they rely upon them?
"whether starwars is science fiction or fantasy" star wars is a soap opera.