What God ultimately decides to do is OK with me... But during my time here on earth, I have decided to follow Jesus... No turning back, no turning back!!!
@@FatherBernard101 Because I believe the word and his promises and I have decided to start my everlasting life in Christ… 😇 I personally believe in eternal hell for those who have rejected the Gospel. But let’s say I’m wrong and the universalist are right. I’m not going to question my decision to live for Jesus here on earth.
@@JamesRichardWiley He’s dead to you and dead in your life. But he is alive to me and alive in me. I shall see everlasting life, will you? Do you believe in God? If not, do you believe that only an intelligent being can design intelligent design. Can A hybrid car be created by itself? No, you need an intelligent being to create intelligent design. In the same manner, an intelligent being created the universe, created the world, created all of the animals and fish, and it was in his image and likeness that an intelligent being created human beings. The creation itself proves there is a God! A higher being who created us and all that we see in nature… There’s no way all this beauty could have come from nothing as nothing only produces nothing. 0x0=0 Heck… 1 million x 0=0 Even if you gave 0 a million reasons it still could not produce a living cell! Trust in God! Trust in his promises! Trust in Jesus! He died for you and on the 3rd day he rose from the dead and he is alive and he wants to make you come alive and there is nothing more that he desires than to give you life and life in abundance! Choose Jesus Christ and your life will never be the same again! 😇😇😇
@@Robert-xp4bn It is so clear that millions of people are following that God. Some of those people were ready to die for him in the anciant days, and they have, so that we could received the gospel by reading their testimony. Persecution happened also today, and I have friends who have died in afghanistan those last days because of their faith in Jesus, and their father Yahwe. So, either they are completely dumb, (or "manipulated"), either, they have met somebody who has shaken so much their world, that they were ready to die for him and to spread his word. Be ready, because one day, you will meet him. And I hope, truly hope, that at that time, he will consider you his friend, not his enemy.
I think for me, the account of the rich man and Lazarus shows me that people do not leave their appointed place after the judgement. The rich man never asks to get out or ask for a second chance. He seems to realize that he is living out his judgement. He does ask for his torment to be lessened, but doesn't ask to get out.
That's a parable, and it was a common one in that day. Jesus didn't make it up. He simply put the poor man in paradise and the rich man in suffering, which was different than how it was normally told. The point wasn't to teach about the afterlife. The point was to take care of the poor.
This is interesting and I like Jason Spencer's response. The parable of the rich man is a warning and prophecy against Israel (Pharisees in particular) and has nothing to do with the afterlife. Israel was given the role of taking the news and blessing of God and His kingdom to the nations and to be a blessing to all nations. They failed and kept it to themselves and the Gentiles only got crumbs from the table and were seen as dogs. Because of this failure, the kingdom was taken from them and given to the Gentiles. Israel is in torment but one day will be grafted back into the tree they were removed from and All Israel will be saved. That is the story and warning that the kingdom would be taken from them, which it was in 70 AD when Judaism was destroyed. So, here are the players in the parable. Rich man who was dressed in fine clothes, etc. When Jacob blessed his sons he made Judah head over his brothers and the scepter was to never depart from Judah. Judah (Israel) is the rich man in the parable. Also note that Judah had 5 brothers, just like the rich man. Lazarus is the Gentiles. Eliezer is a Hebrew derivative of the Greek name Lazarus. Eliezer was the beloved servant of Abram who would have inherited Abrams wealth if Isaac had not been miraculously born. Eliezer was beloved by Abram (near his bosom). Eliezer was also a Gentile from Damascus. Knowing these things puts the whole story into perspective and we also can see the fulfillment of it in what happened to Israel and the ending of the old covenant and beginning of the new. Nothing to do with heaven or hell.
Agree with you Alisa. Once we believe in the absolute goodness of God and that He is completely just as you said, we then can be at peace with these questions on this side of Heaven. Thank you for your steadfastness!
@@waynehampson9569 I don't just believe all of mankind will be saved. I believe all of creation will return to God. It doesn't make sense that He would let his pure creation turn to nothing.
Who cares what Martin Luther considered about a person getting a 'second shot'. (Amother oppporunity). What matters is what the Creator of heaven n earth says about a matter. 'This IS the day of salvation.' Suggesting another shot is tantamount to upholding the notion of reincarnation, an ancient belief of the heathens still held today.
But you base your beliefs off of the writings of other Christians. Who's to say your interpretation of Scripture is more correct than all those who came to conclusions contrary to yours?
Thank you for making this video! I am a longtime believer, but really struggle with this question. There’s research from thousands of people who claim to have crossed over (near death experiences) and the common report is that they were given a second chance to believe after experiencing hell. Our God is more loving and just than we could ever possibly imagine. I’m well aware of the log in my own eye, so I’ll leave the judgement of others to God… 🙏
That's exactly the way I believe, we serve a loving and a just God, and I think he takes in consideration people's environment, they're exposure, and probably numerous other situations. But I do know, may not understand it all or how, but he will make sure that every single person gets the chance to accept the salvation or not. Again, I don't know how it will be done exactly, whether he makes sure that happens while they're alive or if they do get an opportunity, after they die. I definitely don't believe in some type of purgatory. But again, it's not God's will that any of us should go to hell, and I'm not saying that people won't be going to hell because they will, but he's going to make sure that everyone has the opportunity to believe and follow him.
Ultimately I believe that Alisa is correct when she says even if I don't know everything, I trust God. But goodness. The Bible speaks plainly about people perishing and eternal consequences for our faith and actions here on earth, and it is quiet about whether or not there will be more chances after death. If a teaching is clear on a thing, and mostly quiet or indirect on another, then you follow the clear teaching. No overthinking necessary. I will add that the first temptation of Satan was to get Eve to question God's word, and tell her that if she broke his laws she would not die. We should always be very careful to avoid any doctrine that questions the word of God, and tells people that violating God's laws won't necessarily condemn them.
@@JamesRichardWiley Psh. The Bible is a story with mountains of evidence to support it. Even modern atheist scholars attest that Jesus lived and was crucified.
@@braedenh6858 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your father in heaven give good things to those who ask him? Matt 7;11
No! If you die and had a chance to believe wouldn't everyone choose heaven. Who sees heaven and hell and would pick hell. No chance! After death that's it!
If you define Heaven as only all beautiful and sunshine yes everyone would however if you accurately define it as Keeping God the center of your identity then no people who have built their whole life around anything but God would not choose him
2 things 1 if everyone chose heaven, how is that a bad thing 2 why are you sure someone who hates god would choose him in the second life? I think they could, but i dont know how and why they would suddenly change their minds. Some people rather burn in flames than be with the one they hate.
I am open to the possibility that there is some kind of opportunity for salvation after we die. We may be granted once to die and then the judgment, but there is a long period of time between death and when we appear before the Great White Throne. I think it's possible that there may still be some kind of time where repentance is still possible in the interim between the two. I'm obviously not saying that I know it for a fact, but I think that it would be consistent with the character of a God who truly "will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4).
I am encouraged that there is an openness to consider things that heretofore have been flatly rejected. That being said I am greatly disappointed in your lack of responding to questions or comments that are contrary to your doctrine. When people simply dismiss those who may have another point of view, in my mind their credibility evaporates. It makes me sad.
Did Luther “open the door” to that idea? Kind of a teaching of Catholicism way before him… “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.”
Jesus did say every sin will be forgiven man. I believe people can cry out to God in death. Which is not the lake of fire, that is a different place where the wicked go.
I could right a book on this subject and use just three words and one scripture. "I don't know" with Deuteronomy 29:29 ESV "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
I became a Christian many years ago. I struggled with its theology. The backbone of Christianity is the idea of salvation by believing in the blood sacrifice of Jesus the Christ. If you don’t believe that idea, you then go to hell for eternity. As a Christian, each day I woke up thinking about all my friends and family members who didn’t believe in that blood sacrifice and for that reason were going to hell for eternity. How could I be happy knowing that my parents who would most likely die before me, end up burning in hell for eternity? Same for my brother and for everyone that I loved and cared for. Those bleak thoughts continued throughout my day every day. I felt isolated and in despair. I was going through hell each day. I eventually realized that I couldn’t spend the rest of my life with such thoughts. In the Gospel of John it says “Know the Truth and the truth shall set you free.” Well, I didn’t feel free. I knew I could do one of two things. I could go numb and stop thinking about the tortures of hell for my loved ones or I could investigate further into spirituality. I decided to investigate spirituality. So, what I did was read what Jewish rabbis had to say about the Old Testament and the idea of hell in it. I learned from these rabbis that hell is a state of being not a permanent place that God sends people to. It is a negative state of being that can transform you into a better person. The pain of that negativity can do that. The fire in hell is a symbol of the purging of that pain. Suffering is the fire that can turn a person around and change their life in a positive way. That fire brought the prodigal son back to the father. We have all gone through that fire. Emotional pain can wake us up. The scripture in the New Testament that best supports what the rabbis said is in Revelation 20:14 “death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” That line means that hell which are the conditions of negative emotions like anger and frustration are eliminated through a purging which is the lake of fire. So, hell and the lake of fire are not the same thing which is contrary to Christianity! Revelation proves that. I encourage all of you to listen to a few rabbis on Utube and hear what they say about hell in the Old Testament. It will set you free as it did for me.
Thanks for the information. You may be pleasantly surprised by what most leading early church fathers believed too .. "Christ saves all men. Some he converts by penalties, others who follow Him of their own will ... that every knee may be bent to Him, of those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" [Isa. 45:22-23, Rom. 14:11, Phil. 2:10-11, Rev. 5:13] -- *Clement of Alexandria,* _Commentary on 1 John_ "When death shall no longer exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then, verily, God will be All in all" [1 Cor. 15:28,55] -- *Origen,* _De Principiis 3:6.3_ "What else does 'until the times of universal restoration' signify to us, if not the aeon to come, in which all beings must receive their perfect restoration?" [Acts 3:21] -- *Eusebius,* leading historian of the early church, _Contra Marcellum __2:4:11_ "A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one." [Col. 1:15-20] -- *Gregory Nazianzus,* _Oration 42_ "Christ captured over again the souls captured by the devil, for that He promised in saying, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me.'" [John 12:32, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Psalm 68:18, Eph. 4:8-10, and maybe Matt. 12:29] -- *Athanasius,* _Expositions on the Psalms, 68.18_ "The peace [coming] from the Lord is coextensive with all time [eternity]. For all things shall be subject to him, and all things shall acknowledge his empire; and when God shall be all in all, those who now excite discords by revolts, having been quite pacified, [all things] shall praise God in peaceful concord." [Psalm 145:10a, 1 Cor. 15:28, Rev. 5:13] -- *Basil,* _Commentary on Isaiah 9:6_ "So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive." [Luke 19:10, 1 Cor. 15:22] -- *Ambrose,* _Exposition on the Gospel of Luke 15.3_ "For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual, ... but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period, according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end, awaits them; ... the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave crimes are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing, not only to the good, but also to the evil." [Isa. 57:16], *Diodore,* _De Oecon_ "Some among the wise and learned … have alluded to this in an enigmatic way, by adducing that God is not only just, but also merciful, and that it becomes the One who judges with justice to have sinners suffer in a measure that is proportional to their sins and then make them worthy of blessedness." -- *Theodore,* _Liber Scholiorum, 2:63_ "'All the kings of the earth shall adore him.' Some, indeed, in the present life willingly, but all the rest after the Resurrection; for not yet do we see all things subject to him, but then every knee shall bow to him." [The "kings of the earth" are rebellious unbelievers in Rev. 6:15, 17:2,18, 18:3,9, 19:19,21 ... but check out what happens in Rev. 21:24-27!] -- *Theodoret,* _On Psalm 72:11_ "Death shall come as a visitor to the impious; it will not be perpetual; it will not annihilate them; but will prolong its visit, till the impiety which is in them shall be consumed." [Matt. 5:26] -- *Jerome,* _On Micah 5:8_ "After the complete abolition of sin, praise shall be sung to God; which praise contain (implies) our being incapable of turning to sin ... when every created being shall be harmonized into one choir ... and when, like a cymbal, the reasonable creation, and that which is now severed by sin ... shall pour forth a pleasing strain, due to mutual harmony. Then comes the praise of every spirit for ever abounding with increase unto eternity." [Psalm 150] -- *Gregory of Nyssa,* _On Psalms, Tract 1, ch. 9_ Other church fathers who believed in eventual universal salvation include *Asterius, Bardaisan, Cyril of Alexandria, Didymus the Blind, Dionysius, Ephrem the Syrian, Gennadius, Hilary, John Cassian, John Chrysostom, Marcellus, Maximus the Confessor, Maximus of Turin, Methodius, Paulinus, Proclus, Titus of Basra & Victorinus.* Sources: Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapters 4-5, 1905 & Ilaria Ramelli, _A Larger Hope?, Volume 1: Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich,_ 2019
@@PeterProf7777thank you for sharing the question and the information❤... I too have been living in torment daily since the death of my unsaved loved one... And even now praying for his salvation, and about everybody going to hell... The idea itself torments my whole being.... So searching, for answers asking God to show me.
Yes, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Th rich man about to have conversations. If you can have conversation, you can communicate. If you can communicate, you can cry out for Jesus.
@@benstr8156 Exactly. And elaborating on this parable, if people take it to literally be heaven and hell, then people have to be able to talk in between, which most infernalists cannot accept.
@@chardo24 food for thought: If Jesus died for your sins and has removed them from God's sight, what is Purgatory for, and why would we be condemned for something that has been forgiven? What if instead we are judged based upon our faith in Jesus? Then we would be condemned only for not having faith. As Abraham was saved by his faith in a time before laws and Jesus, so can anyone be saved by faith. So, finally, how can one come to faith after they have died? It would no longer be faith, because they would see clearly, as Lazarus did in the parable.
@@braedenh6858 Why in the hell are we so invested in believing there is a hell? Over the years, one of the hardest truths for some people to accept is that there is no hell. Why do people fight so hard to believe in a God that would burn us?
@@chardo24 Simple: because it's Biblical. It's mentioned in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Psalms, Revelations, and multiple epistles. Either you think that that every one of those verses is misinterpreted and/or mistranslated, or you're ignoring them because you don't like them. I believe that they mean what they say, and I pay attention to them. God is just. He will not burn the ones he calls his children, but there are consequences for rejecting him.
Death is temporary a lot of us Christians forget about revelation the resurrection will happen too then the final judgment we will all have glorified bodies 1 Corinthians 15 KJV
I dont know what God chooses to do with me but I believe in Jesus after believing also I kept sinning not only small but so much but I still believe that God forgive me every time I sin but the only thing I fear that God may turn his back on me and do not get seperated for him because of my sin
I think this exchange ended on an interesting note, in that both Lee and Alisa affirm that they are confident that God will act justly. However they also attest that there is evidence that God is just and loving elsewhere, suggesting that God's justice is something which must be demonstrated (as opposed to being defined by God's nature, actions, commands, etc.). By my lights this eludes to an external standard of justice/ morality to which God must adhere, which is strange given that (as far as I know) both Alisa and Lee endorse the moral argument. I think there's a tension there.
The evidence is for the unbeliever. I don't think either one is endorsing that God's justice is something we can only attest to if we see evidence of it, but rather that because God's nature/character is just, we will certainly see evidence of it even in the here and now. His justice extends far beyond the singular act of eternal judgment, but also includes justice in the order of things. He makes it to rain on the just and unjust is only one example of a scripture that points out that God doesn't show favoritism, he cannot be bought or coerced or controlled. He does what is right regardless of whether the recipient deserves the blessing or not. We all come to the knowledge of God through evidence, but the kind of evidence that makes us take notice is different for everyone. Anyone who claims that Christians believe without evidence is in error; that's an atheist claim.
@@jennifercavanagh3025 I suppose that's what I find tense about the relationship though. On one hand we want to say that justice is defined by God's nature, but on the other we point to features of reality that *show* that God is just. If God's nature is the standard of justice, then whatever he does is just by definition, we don't need to adjudicate whether or not he would/ wouldn't behave justly (and thus don't need to appeal to evidence in nature, scripture, etc.); our intuitions about justice are irrelevant. If instead we investigate whether or not God is just (as Lee and Alisa gesture towards here), I think there's a tacit admission that there exist some "justice criteria" which God must satisfy beyond simply being God. Perhaps to put it another way: if God's nature is just, how would we know? If it's true by definition, then Alisa and Lee are simply incorrect to say that there's "tons of evidence and tons of reasons to trust the fairness and justice of God." If it's true given that God satisfies such-and-such conditions, then Lee and Alisa are correct to talk about faith, belief, reasons, justification, and so on, but then they lose the moral argument as these objective values exist outside of God.
Lee Strobel is wrong. There are plenty of scriptures that suggest that one has an opportunity to repent after they leave this life (or age). It completely shocks me that he does not know that. Lee is also wrong about God being loving and just. God is love! His justice is an attribute of his love. That can be seen throughout all of scripture. In other words, his love and justice are not two completely different attributes. GOD IS LOVE! "For God has bound EVERYONE over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them ALL."
what about the Lazarus and the rich man in hell? Luke 16:26 And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
That is a parable, and it was a common one in Second Temple Judaism (heavily influenced by the Greeks). The point of the parable was to take care of the poor. It wasn't a primer on the afterlife.
Just a thought: for something that isn't even mentioned in the scriptures, it saddens me that the concept of Hell has caused an awful lot of confusion as well as a whole lot of good people turning away from the life, truth and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Lee also mentioned that maybe judgement doesn’t happen right away or just curious what does that change so does that mean that while the person is dead people are praying him or her into heaven or is this person doing something in death to be allowed into heaven just exactly what goes on?
Fair? You believe in a God that chooses to "burn" people for trillions upon trillions of years (and that's only the beginning). You believe in a God who imposes infinite penalties on finite sins.
@@jasonspencer8558 God doesn't 'choose' evil. People choose God or choose not to choose God. There are 2 ways to go: God & Heaven, or Satan & hell. You choose which way you're going. You might want to read books by former atheists Lee Strobel & Josh McDowell. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.
@@terrilynch7845 I never said God chooses evil. I said that God chooses to burn people for eternity, and you are perfectly okay with that. Funny thing: the Bible itself doesn't even present you with that choice: heaven or hell. That is found nowhere in the Bible.
You probably have a justifiable mistrust - mostly because we _should_ distrust other human beings who seem to act like they know what God says. Let man account for his words and God account for God's Word
Only someone who stubbornly adheres to materialism would claim it’s all rigged. Yet there are plenty of believers who have not seen and yet believe. Belief is simply trust that God is who he says he is. Even if you could see him, there’s no guarantee that you would trust or believe in him. Belief in this sense comes from the heart, not just observation. On judgment day, God will list all of the opportunities you had to believe and concrete evidence that you deliberately rejected him. I’d seriously question whether you truly have no reason to believe in God or if you simply don’t want to.
You make an interesting point, however its loaded with flaws. 1) "Unless my eyes see, I will never believe" Your eyes cannot handle the sun.. you want to see with your eye the Creator who created the sun. Why are you asking what your eyes cannot handle? 2) "Seeing is believing" Take a doctor that smokes, knows more than you and I about the dangers of smoking. He sees the cigarette pack containing a picture of a damaged lung along with a warning. Still chooses to smoke. Is he a believer or a disbeliever? Isn't seeing is believing.. 3) "There is no hell thats theist madness" You might heard from a theist or two their limited understanding of hell and decided this is ridiculous, there is no hell. Hell is a deep theological concept, keep it aside. However does this mean, there are no consequences? An atheistic view would hold no consequences to moral laws being broken. Moral laws and hell are the madness of theists who make up stuff. Live care free and be happy. Taking that position is like a man jumping from a top building happy with the air going against his face not seeing his ground crash. You break physical laws and what do you expect? What happens to the smoker above that decides to break the health laws? Consequences? What happens to a person in a similar situation except he doesn't ignore the health warnings, he ignores the moral warnings, he chooses wickedness. What can he expect? No consequences because there are no laws.. YOLO, right? 4) How to see God? Seek and you will find. Matthew 7:7-8 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Submit your heart to God and you will see him. Mark 12:30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ Imam Ali (a.s): Eyes cannot see Him face to face, but hearts perceive Him through the realities of belief. Holy Quran 41:53 We will show them Our signs in the universe and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that this ˹Quran˺ is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is a Witness over all things? 5) Wired towards truth You have a natural disposition to seek truth and shun falsehood. Does that look like paving the way towards belief or disbelief? Disbelief is a choice just like the smoker made his choices. Holy Quran (20:48) And We certainly showed Pharaoh Our signs - all of them - but he denied and refused. Holy Quran 17:15 (...And We would never punish ˹a people˺ until We have sent a messenger ˹to warn them˺.) 6) A UA-cam video to watch if you don't bother. Title: The meaning of life | muslim spoken word UA-cam channel: Talk Islam Peace.
@@Window4503 no…someone who realizes: 1. No god or “supernature “ has ever been demonstrated 2. All which we have discovered has been of the natural Understands the logic that one cannot justify belief in fabled claims of invisible gods, demons, devils, etc. If a god existed then that god would know how to reveal itself convincingly. And if a god wanted a relationship with mankind then that god would simply show up so mankind could have that relationship. That no god has ever done this is telling.
@@IAlephI 1. It’s not just my eyes, it’s everything. I have no verifiable evidence for any gods. There is no flaw here. The great David Hume said it best… “The wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.” 2. Yes the doctor knows the dangers of smoking, but his addiction is strong so he continues smoking. 3. Yes there are laws. Criminal, civil and social. We humans implement and devise these laws. Just because you want there to be consequences…or life for that matter…beyond our death doesn’t mean it’s real. 4. People are capable of believing in just about anything. If you are “seeking” something you are already, possibly, prone to believing. You have taken that first step. People believe in a lot of things. Our imaginations don’t stop at the end of puberty. 5. Yes we all have a natural disposition to seek truth and shun falsehood. However, different people exercise this disposition in different degree and in different ways. There are people who are prone to conspiracy theories. There are people who, because they realize that because there is much that we don’t know, are prone to believing in things that have little to no evidence. It is because I have chosen the disciplines of logic and evidence that I am unable to invest belief in things that are without sufficient evidence. Thank you for your reply.
I struggle with this too as a person always drawn to many of the saints and Jesus. But I find it very difficult to reconcile an all loving and all powerful God with one that would allow eternal torment, too. It does not add up to me. It seems like we are missing something. I feel like many more would be receptive to attempting to communicate if the aspect of love and compassion was more consistent. And as much as very devout Christians that lack a skeptical nature will say that God is love, for someone like myself raised in the Christian faith who loves Jesus but struggles with the entirety of the Bible, I feel I actually have put in more time than many of the condemning Christians...in actually struggling and trying to make sense of it all. Even if the Bible stated that there are evil entities that could pull you off course and wound you, that would make sense in a world where some have done despicable things and you can get hurt by being in riskier situations or being near there. We could appreciate that this could happen spiritually, in the same way that walking alone at night as a single person is more dangerous than travelling in a group of good and trustworthy people, etc. But even coming into harm by entities that could be evil would not be an insurmountable task if you were all powerful, eternal and all loving. If God was healing and forgiving, even if his spiritual children got wounded by not being as aware of the malevolent spirits for example, why would God have no ability to intercede? Ever? For all time? I would say this very idea is somewhat unfair to God because it paints God as less loving, less fair and less able than I would have otherwise thought. And isn't that revealing? That in my actual doubtful nature, I have higher expectations for what God could achieve based on the fact that that very good humans would strive to meet those standards? And so my criticism is not just that the Bible seems contradictory to me at times but that it seems to make God seen weaker and less loving for that very reason? And in a very real way I feel that my issues here are not issues with God at all but with humans who have ascribed motives and limits to God when on my own I would have assumed that infinite justice and love meant just that? And that would mean that God would work to eradicate all suffering because why should anyone suffer? What good does it do to hurt someone for not understanding you? It doesn't seem loving and no other faith would say this is evidence of love. Even Jesus himself doubted God, in a sense doubted himself. So if even God as man can doubt the actions....I have faith that us humans, trying our best, questioning and never giving up trying to sense truth...would receive compassionate treatment for continuing to try to forge that connection. Not because some of us find it easy. But because it IS much harder for some of us to believe. So I could call myself a supporter of Christ and I have huge empathy for anyone who has suffered, and when I focus just on the purest parts of the Bible, I can find beauty in it. And I think that is the difference between being religious and being spiritual. I believe that if there is a loving God, even if there was pure evil, that in a realm of eternal spirit begins, even those who had doubts could be redeemed and could see the truths of things "unseen" if God wanted to keep them safe. This is the idea of God's grace. But it only works if God wants to truly save all who would come to him if they believed and it only works if a terrible punishment is not doled out for having doubts or fears. After all, no one asks to be born. Why should anyone be made to suffer at all, nevermind forever? So yes, I struggle a lot with the Bible. I struggle even more with many of the so-called Christians who seem to lack compassion. Having faith is one thing, but if someone is losing sight of the fact that not all people see things the same way, then that is when religiosity becomes dangerous because people lose compassion and veer off towards evil actions, not good ones (hence the Crusades, hence the 'witch' burnings, hence the abuse of children in the church.) So being doubtful is not the same as rejecting God. A person who actually doesn't care one way or the other would not even think long enough on the subject to have doubts. To be doubtful means you are spending time comparing what you are being told to what you have come to see has proven false in the past and the doubts are your concerns that something is not truthful, not stable, could become unsafe, poses a risk. We need to have more compassion as a whole for all animals and all humans and not treat any life like it is less important or that people 'choose' to be hurt. When some Christians say that, it reminds me of people who criticize a woman for asking questions and who gets physically assaulted by an abusive partner for daring to have a mind, for daring to question. We even know from the Bible that Jesus himself offered to let Thomas (doubting Thomas) to touch his wounds to confirm the truth of his (Jesus's) divinity. Doesn't that mean that Jesus has empathy and understanding for those who are drawn to his messages but still have a nature that tends to question things to ensure they are not of our imaginations? Jesus could have chastised Thomas but he offered his side to him to be touched, where he was run through with the blade, so Thomas could truly come to full belief and no longer have any more doubts. If Jesus was willing to provide evidence to help Thomas develop faith, doesn't that hint that it's not skepticism that Jesus dislikes at all? He obviously reprimands disloyalty - such as when someone actually betrays him, but he did not see skepticism as a betrayal. He realized some were more anxious to know for sure that what they were seeing is real, but many of the skeptics in the Bible were those Jesus held in high regard and also showed compassion for... What he seemed to dislike were people who were showy and judgmental of others. People who acted like they were holier than thou but who lacked compassion. There are many instances where he did everything he could to prove his divinity. Also, many Christians don't believe in a literal interpretation of hell at all. So if even Christians who are believers are constantly debating this, I have faith that a God said to be infinitely loving and kind would be even better at this than some humans are... :)
CS Lewis disagreed on this premise. He famously said "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside" so that implies that the only thing keeping people in Hell is their desire to be there and if you want to claim Free Will is the reason people go to Hell you can't set arbitrary time limits on it.
Eternal hell makes so much sense to me. Grace and mercy are undeserved. God is not obligated to be merciful to all people, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy." When we sin as an imager of God we are slandering and misrepresenting the likeness of God. When I lie, I am saying I image a God that does not love the truth, and deceives to serve Himself. My sin is directly against the Creator God, God IS burdened by our sin against one another and ultimately Him. The cross represents God's wrath on sin, and sins affect on Him. The injustice of the world grieves Him far more than we could imagine. So the infinitely holy and eternal God is unjustly burdened by our sin; He deserves justice. Thus, we inherit an infinite and eternal weight of condemnation, loneliness, bitterness, and agony to the exact measure our deeds deserve. God does not desire to condemn (Lamentations 3:33, Ezekiel 33:11), the judgement of the heavens and earth were not the point of His creation. But God judges because He is righteous and is settled against the corruption and rebellion of His once perfect creation. We only have hope all wrongs will be accounted for because of His justice, and hope that all will be treated fairly by His righteousness.
When God speaks to Abraham about the people of Sodom, we know God wouldn't destroy anyone righteous. God knows beyond what we know, he knows us. It'll be fair and just when it happens.
Mr. Strobel, while I respect your opinion I believe you've forgotten Romans 1:18-20 which says, "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth through unrighteousness. For what may be known about God is clear to them since God has shown it to them. The invisible things about Him-His eternal power and deity-have been clearly seen since the creation of the world and are understood by the things that are made, so that they are without excuse." What further chance would anyone need than to recognize His personal display in His Creation?
But many people do not believe that is not evidence of God, or that it is equally evidence of other God. The thing is...there is no evidence. There cannot be if someone has faith. Faith operates on the absence of evidence, otherwise believing in God would be scientific, and it's not. So that portion of the Bible is illogical and that means either God is illogical or God did not actually say that, which means a man wrote that. And we know many men wrote that. What I struggle with are the parts of the Bible that are sexist and violent and so on, and the fact that it seems to be written by many different minds ...because it was. But that means either part or all of it is contaminated because a lot of it is contradictory. For example, loving people do not torture others. For God to be okay with torturing others, presumably most of his creations, he is either not loving or he cannot control someone else torturing others, which means he is not all powerful. Taken as a whole the Bible is the opposite of evidence-based. Taken passage by passage, some passages promote love and compassion, others promote cruelty. This is why I feel there is such a divide between Christians and such a divide between the responses to Christianity. Not because all Christians are bad or cruel or would mock others, shun them and so on, but because some do. And that's because there are issues with the Bible. Somewhere along the lines it seems aspects of it were corrupted. And I struggle with belief because the aspects that restrict compassion and indeed provide discussion that eternal torture is even a possibility....it makes me wonder why someone would support such a faith? And my belief here is...fear. And isn't that a problem too? If you only love God out of fear, is that pure love? I would argue no. So I struggle the most with that, even though I would say I am a good person. I give to charity, I am kind to animals, and I would show love to anyone who needed it. But those are the questions that trip me up. But for the Bible itself to speak of evidence, that is problematic in a sense because faith is about having no evidence and still believing. Most forms of belief, in the philosophical sense, are about having experience in an area from which a certain confidence grows and then you trust in a person etc. So those are the parts of the Bible that trip me up. Whereas other parts are quite beautiful. Take care. ❤
The Bible makes it extremely difficult to tell whether or not those in Hades (NOT GEHENNA) can be redeemed. We know there are both faithful and unfaithful in Sheol during the Messianic Age, but we are never told the fate of the unfaithful that died post-crucifixion. We are technically judged twice in the entire Bible: once after death, another time during the Final Judgement. Many believe those in Gehenna don't want to repent, given gnashing of teeth in "Outter Darkness" (Gehenna) is present.
It's far better to _inherit_ the kingdom of God by accepting Jesus Christ as our savior and giving our lives to Him before we die. However ... There _will_ be second chances (after death) for salvation: UNTIL -- "I tell you the truth, you will not get out *until* you have paid the last penny." (Matt. 5:26). THE FORGIVABLE SINS -- "Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not ... either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:31-32). The wording strongly suggests that all sins except one, including blasphemies against Christ, will be forgiven in the next age if they're not forgiven in this age. (For Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, compare Matt. 12:32 with Eph. 2:7.) BAPTISMS FOR THE DEAD -- In 1 Cor. 15:29, Paul addresses -- and does not condemn (per se) -- the Corinthians' practice of being baptized for the dead. But this practice would have been absurd if one's eternal fate is sealed at death. Also, prayers for the dead were almost universal in the early church. THE DEAD HEAR THE GOSPEL AND LIVE -- "For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may *live in the spirit* according to the will of God" (1 Peter 4:6). (Also see Psalm 68:18, Zech. 9:11-12, Matt. 12:29, Eph. 4:8-10.) WHO IS THIRSTY? -- "The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come'. And let the one who hears say, 'Come'. And let the one who is *thirsty* come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price." (Rev. 22:17) The setting of Rev. 22:17 is the Rev. 21-22 new heaven and new earth, since the "water of life" is also mentioned in Rev. 21:6 & 22:1, and it's the Rev. 21-22 "Bride" who is speaking -- not the "church" or the "lampstands." But who are the thirsty ones? Who else is there? The thirsty ones must be those in the Lake of Fire, located outside the city gates (Rev. 22:14-15), which never close (Rev. 21:25). SODOM RESTORED -- "I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them ... And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before" (Ezek. 16:53,55). In verses 47-55, the pronouns "their" and "they" identify the restored individuals as being those who were destroyed in Gen. 19 because of their abominations (Ezek. 16:50) and for other reasons (Ezek. 16:49). They will first need to be punished and purified in God's symbolic and refining Lake of Fire. DRY BONES LIVE -- "Then he said to me, `Son of man, these bones are the *whole* house of Israel. Behold they say, "Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off."' Therefore prophesy, and say to them, `Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves, O my people... And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves, O my people. And I will put my spirit within you, and you shall live'" (Ezek. 37:11-14a). BLINDINGS -- God has either directly caused, or permitted, various groups of people to be blinded to the truth (e.g. Mark 4:10-12, Rom. 11:25, 2 Cor. 4:3-4). This would seem to require an unblinded opportunity in the afterlife. DEAFENING SILENCE -- The first 2/3 of the Bible is completely silent about Hell, and the last 1/3 uses the ambiguous-at-best Greek word _aion_ and its derivatives to describe Hell's duration. This makes no sense if (a) God is love and (b) eternal torment is true. There would have been clear and dire warnings on almost every page. For instance, why did Noah infinitely understate the penalty when he warned his neighbors only of a worldwide flood and not of eternal conscious torment? EVENTUAL UNIVERSAL SALVATION EXPLICITLY TAUGHT -- See, John 12:32, 17:2, combination of (John 3:35, 6:37), Rom. 5:18-19, 8:19-21, 11:32,36, 14:11 , *1 Cor. 15:22,28* , Eph. 1:10, Phil. 2:10-11, 3:21, Col. 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, Titus 2:11, 1 Pet. 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev. 5:13, 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2, combination of (Rev. 22:1,14-15,17a,17c), Psalm 22:27,29, 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isa. 25:6-8, 45:22-25, 57:16, Lam. 3:22,31, Ezek. 16:53,55, Mal. 3:2-3. These verses, and many others like them, imply second chances.
2 Corinthians 6:2 KJV [2] (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Though children that don’t understand I think about or the age of accountability, but all flesh is born in sin, wish there was more scriptures to represent this.
This narrative just doesn’t sit with me and a lot of other people too. God cannot just allow certain humans to burn in pain for eternity for not listening or believing in Jesus. Other religions follow similar principles just with out the figure of Jesus and Christian’s are saying they all go to hell too? Like Ghandi’s going to burn because he had other beliefs? This is ludicrous, I do believe in god and Jesus but it’s things like this that make look at the idea that it’s all just a way to control and keep society in check and I’m apparently gonna go the hell for eternity for even looking for a logical truth? What the f**k is going on
You're right to question this. Most leading early church fathers saw things very differently: "Christ saves all men. Some he converts by penalties, others who follow Him of their own will ... that every knee may be bent to Him, of those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" [Isa. 45:22-23, Rom. 14:11, Phil. 2:10-11, Rev. 5:13] -- *Clement of Alexandria,* _Commentary on 1 John_ "When death shall no longer exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then, verily, God will be All in all" [1 Cor. 15:28,55] -- *Origen,* _De Principiis 3:6.3_ "What else does 'until the times of universal restoration' signify to us, if not the aeon to come, in which all beings must receive their perfect restoration?" [Acts 3:21] -- *Eusebius,* leading historian of the early church, _Contra Marcellum __2:4:11_ "A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one." [Col. 1:15-20] -- *Gregory Nazianzus,* _Oration 42_ "Christ captured over again the souls captured by the devil, for that He promised in saying, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me.'" [John 12:32, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Psalm 68:18, Eph. 4:8-10, and maybe Matt. 12:29] -- *Athanasius,* _Expositions on the Psalms, 68.18_ "The peace [coming] from the Lord is coextensive with all time [eternity]. For all things shall be subject to him, and all things shall acknowledge his empire; and when God shall be all in all, those who now excite discords by revolts, having been quite pacified, [all things] shall praise God in peaceful concord." [Psalm 145:10a, 1 Cor. 15:28, Rev. 5:13] -- *Basil,* _Commentary on Isaiah 9:6_ "So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive." [Luke 19:10, 1 Cor. 15:22] -- *Ambrose,* _Exposition on the Gospel of Luke 15.3_ "For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual, ... but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period, according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end, awaits them; ... the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave crimes are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing, not only to the good, but also to the evil." [Isa. 57:16], *Diodore,* _De Oecon_ "Some among the wise and learned … have alluded to this in an enigmatic way, by adducing that God is not only just, but also merciful, and that it becomes the One who judges with justice to have sinners suffer in a measure that is proportional to their sins and then make them worthy of blessedness." -- *Theodore,* _Liber Scholiorum, 2:63_ "'All the kings of the earth shall adore him.' Some, indeed, in the present life willingly, but all the rest after the Resurrection; for not yet do we see all things subject to him, but then every knee shall bow to him." [The "kings of the earth" are rebellious unbelievers in Rev. 6:15, 17:2,18, 18:3,9, 19:19,21 ... but check out what happens in Rev. 21:24-27!] -- *Theodoret,* _On Psalm 72:11_ "Death shall come as a visitor to the impious; it will not be perpetual; it will not annihilate them; but will prolong its visit, till the impiety which is in them shall be consumed." [Matt. 5:26] -- *Jerome,* _On Micah 5:8_ "After the complete abolition of sin, praise shall be sung to God; which praise contain (implies) our being incapable of turning to sin ... when every created being shall be harmonized into one choir ... and when, like a cymbal, the reasonable creation, and that which is now severed by sin ... shall pour forth a pleasing strain, due to mutual harmony. Then comes the praise of every spirit for ever abounding with increase unto eternity." [Psalm 150] -- *Gregory of Nyssa,* _On Psalms, Tract 1, ch. 9_ Other church fathers who believed in eventual universal salvation include *Asterius, Bardaisan, Cyril of Alexandria, Didymus the Blind, Dionysius, Ephrem the Syrian, Gennadius, Hilary, John Cassian, John Chrysostom, Marcellus, Maximus the Confessor, Maximus of Turin, Methodius, Paulinus, Proclus, Titus of Basra & Victorinus.* Sources: Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapters 4-5, 1905 & Ilaria Ramelli, _A Larger Hope?, Volume 1: Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich,_ 2019
Luther was hardly the first. The church for the first 500 years after Christ held the majority belief that all people would be saved, in this life or the next. That's why Paul talks about praying for the dead, Peter talks about Jesus "preaching the Gospel" to those in the grave, etc. Why do you think the gates of Hell "will not prevail" against Christ? If people are already there, why the assault? I should also mention that most Jews do not believe in "hell". It cannot be found anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Everybody in this conversation is basing their answers and comments on the level of knowledge THEY have. God sees the level of knowledge everyone that has ever lived made their decisions based upon. Totally different story. You see you and judge all on that basis. God sees EVERYTHING and based His judgements on truth. Someone that YOU would claim "has never heard" the gospel, God has said "they HAVE heard" enough to choose. Creation, existence, the stars, the beauty of life, it all speaks more than you know. God counts every response as a response. Two people look at creation and see two different things. One sees God's amazing beauty, love and purpose. Another cannot stomach the thought of an evil, haughty Creator. You DON'T need ANY explanation of the gospel to one of those people. Choice has been made. To those who are in a far flung culture without access to the gospel there are many, many stories of God sending messengers to those who desired to hear. The book "Eternity In Their Hearts" is a good place to start in this topic. God has left Himself a strong witness in every culture on earth. All who truly desire to know Him, He Himself seeks these people out. I know God. He has been just, that every mouth may be silenced and all will see He is true and every man a liar. These conversations are lusted after by those who seek to discredit God. Sorry. It can't be done. The very fact that people are deluged with SOOO much knowledge of the Creator in our society and STILL reject Him with vengence only proves God's justice, His voice convicts and many still reject His matchless love and compassion. Don't waste your time on those who will not hear. Make disciples instead. Peace...
We will all be judged on Judgement Day when Jesus returns. Before then the dead who will be judged guilty are in one place and the dead who will be judged righteous are in another. Where is the subject of much debate. It is clear that those who do not have the Law will be judged by a different standard than those who do. Jesus told the Pharisees that since they have the Law they will be judged harshly.
To even slightly suggest that someone can come to the savings grace of Jesus Christ after death is heresy and that very statement might keep some from heaven. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BIBLE THAT EVEN SLIGHTLY SUGGESTS THAT!!!
You position is exactly what I held for years, because I loved God, and could not absorb hell. Now I am free by endorsing the Ultimate reconciliation Doctrine. Judgement and Hell has an end and ultimately all will be back to God. Judgement is true, but it is not Eternal literal Torment.
If Satan was going to teach a doctrine, universalism would be it. The first deception of Satan was to have Eve question God's word, and then to tell her she wouldn't die if she broke it. Telling people to question God's words about judgment and hell, and telling them that they will surely be reconciled in the end is simply an extension of that. Paul writes that people will teach the doctrines of demons. Well, here you are, doing that.
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
@@lifeoffaithlebanon Satan said that Eve wouldn't die if she disobeyed God. That is what you are saying as well. Claiming to be on God's side doesn't make it so. Your actions and beliefs tell the tale.
If there is a Hell where sinners are punished with no end in sight, then we can come to one - and ONLY ONE - conclusion which is: God is going to punish sinners for the same sins - repeat: SAME SINS - Jesus died for. Now why would God do this?
I think that in theory a person in hell could have a change of heart and trust in Christ for their salvation, however I think the reason they are in hell is because they won't nor would have under any circumstance at any time in their life or afterwards have done so.
It is a shame that the desobidience of one man, was more powerful because causes All men became sinners, lost, and the obedience of one, Jesus, just save a few.
Praise God Jesus is more powerful than Adam: "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive ... God [will] be all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22,28) "As one trespass [Adam's] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [Jesus'] leads to justification and life for all men." (Rom. 5:18)
Only people who are in the spirit will know the truth. You can work your way out of hell. I knew I was going 2 hell, but today I got word from him saying "see, you can work yourself out of hell. The fire didn't burn you." We have 2 repent for all of our sins, without repentance you will not go into heaven. If you break the 10 commandments, you will not get into heaven without repentance. A lot of pastors speak false doctrine. I know, because I can now see straight through them because I walk in the "spirit", no I don't become a ghost and go 2 other places. Pastors sons tried telling me that I was going 2 hell. 1 they cursed me because you should only speak life over a person, and 2ndly they have 100 % sealed their fate because by doing that, they cursed themselves straight back. Unless they repent, they will not see heaven. We have 2 become like children, and the bible clearly says so. Anyone can look it up and you'll see I'm telling the truth. Also people who really are in God every single day (prayer and reading your Bible and getting stuck in the word) will receive revelation from God on a regular basis. It's a spiritual battle we need to fight. People think they can go 2 church on Sundays only and make it into heaven.... false doctrine!!! You can't go 2 church on Sundays and sin the rest of the week. If you can honestly say "yes I've lied, yes I have committed adultery, yes I've stolen etc and you haven't repented you won't see the kingdom. I'm part of the remnant, you can type in who are the remnant Bible verse. It should come up. I got my confirmation from God my saviour. Please everyone has 2 repent before it's 2 late. Most people are "sleeping" even pastors. A lot of churches worship idols. We should not make idols of anything in the heavens or in the sea etc. Having a cross in the church is idolatry. The church has fallen away from the truth. The remnant have come 2 tell the truth ❤🙏 that's why they can't cast out evil spirits etc like Jesus did in his day. Also gay people will not inherit the kingdom "man shall not lie with man, it's a abomination to God". You can repent and be healed. A ex gay man gave a testimony... he died from aids in hospital. His parents prayed feverishly while he was in hospital By the grace of God because of divine intervention he ended up being cured from aids and he even ended up getting married to a woman. I'm so greatful 2 God for waking me up in time, before it was 2 late.
Answer: no. I don't believe the Bible teaches that. If they could, or can, then Hell instantly becomes PURGATORY. Also, see Luke 12:48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (New King James version) I am not certain, but from the above passage, even if you cant get out, perhaps there are levels of punishment in hell...? Question: what passage might Catholics use to support the idea of being "prayed out of Purgatory"? But even with that, there is the difference of being prayed out vs. working your way out.
@@dabbler1166 Why not read some of the early Church fathers, such as Origen or Gregory of Nyssa? Furthermore, the actual language used in the Bible indicates this, such as the "lake of fire and brimstone", i.e., sulfur, which was used to cleanse, not destroy. I would argue that the Bible itself is an early Church source that shows this, then. There are plenty of books, podcasts, sermons, etc. out there, if you are actually interested.
No Scripture is clear that as it is appointed for man to die once but after that the Judgement. There are No Second Chance's Repentance and salvation can only be found while one is alive on earth. Hell is an inescapable eternal separation from God. That's my understanding of Scripture!
One other observation; Lee mentioned twice, the Hebrews verse about man dying once and after that the judgement. In Christ we have been there and done that. If one died for all (and He did), then all died. Jesus Christ took our judgement and we are judged righteous. As in Adam ALL die, so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. It takes theological manipulation to toss out those and other verses like them. Be fair and just in your review and analysis of all the views concerning eternity.
@@EVLS10 No, not ditching a lot of scripture, simply interpreting scripture differently than the traditional western church way of interpreting it. To negate the reconciliation of all, is to also ditch a lot of scripture. All died and all are made alive, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, every tongue will confess Jesus as LORD, God will be all in all, in Him we (all humanity) live and move and have our being, etc. Yes there are scriptures that support other views. The key is your perception of Father, Son and Spirit. Are they truly love? Love is a noun by the way, not an adjective. Are they really good. Are they just? If they are just, what is justice from God's perspective. Is it the punishment of an offender or is it the healing and restoring of one who has become terminally sick? My Father is a loving Father and a master healing physician as opposed to a courtroom judge. What is your father like? My Father's kingdom is like a hospital and not a courtroom. How about yours? My Father's love and mercy, grace and forgiveness endures forever, not just until death do us part. How about yours?
@@bradharford6052 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. I could go on but there are a multitude of verses that make it very clear that not everyone will go to heaven. The reality is that God is loving and a healer but you must first accept the free gift of life before you will be reconciled.
@@EVLS10 You misunderstand. Yes scripture says that ONLY those who believe come into life. Scripture also says that in the end, all WILL believe and confess. No conflict there. Case closed.
@@bradharford6052 No you my friend misunderstand. All will confess one day that Jesus is Lord. For many, it will be too late at that point. They will know the truth but they will not pass judgement because they rejected the truth when given the choice in life. Timing matters.
When you turn children whom God created as innocent into wicked you have to resort to all sorts of speculations to make it work out. Born sinful is a christology that is not from God or Christ but false teachers. What did Jesus teach about children and their goodness? Furthermore Adam sinned therefore children are born wicked deserving hell is not compatible with justice. Ezekiel 18:25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? Ezekiel 18:2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: “’The parents eat sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? Ezekiel 18:3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. But by all means Christ needs to die and he doesn't know that apparently when asking for salvation. Because we all know the righteous thing is for Christ to be killed and the wicked thing is for him to be saved. Right? (When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.) John 8:40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Lets all pray like Christ did, which is for him to be killed.. Oh wait..
the only thing I think the JWs may get right maybe after death having the chance to repent. Many Jews and Muslims who honestly followed their creator and due to no fault of their own stayed with theior religion, would see Jesus is the way and be let into heaven seems fair to me(but isn't discussed in NT scripture anywhere so its prob more of a hope than anything else
I just don’t see how it’s a possibility and to say those who never heard what about nature or the scripture that says God is revealed by His handiwork and because it’s luther it doesn’t mean he didn’t get anything wrong. Just disappointed in both Alisa and Lee
Okay I always knew that hell is eternal and that’s it there’s no coming back or reincarnation or crossing from hell to heaven or vice versa, anddddddd then I read Jonah? NOW I AM SO CONFUSED……….
Here's a theory. Those who didn't have a chance during life to choose Christ, after they die will experience a dream-like sequence of events that they will think is reality, not realizing that they have already died; and in this dream sequence of events they will be brought into a situation or situations where they will be given the opportunity to be saved. IF during their real lifetime they would have made the right choice given the opportunity, then they will make the same right choice in the afterlife dream sequence. God would know this ahead of time, and once they make that choice all of the characters in their dream sequence will be revealed to be angels and the props in the dream sequence will fade away and the child of God will enter into the heavenly Jerusalem. If on the other hand that person makes the wrong choice, given the opportunity that they had missed during their lifetime on earth, then all of the people in their after life dream sequence will reveal themselves to be the demons who will torment that individual for all eternity as he or she enters through the gate that reads "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here". Just a thought.
Question- when you die you’re confronted with Allah (or any other god that you didn’t believe in). Do you think you deserve eternal conscious torment for mistakenly repenting to the wrong god? Yes or no? I think you can figure out the consequences of each answer when it comes to showing that god’s invention of hell is evil.
God made it clear in His Word, that there is only one God and who He is. Hell is not evil, it was created for those who are evil. You are judging God by your own standard. You aren't the one who gives the standard.
@@lightningbauer You have not answered my question. Please answer because what you’ve said is just a way to avoid the question. Obviously it isn’t clear to everyone who god is, given that people genuinely believe in different gods or none. Denying so is the equivalent of a Muslim saying you know Allah is god and you’re purposely denying him. So is every person who isn’t a Christian evil? Sure. I’m judging god by a different standard. And you’re judging god by his own standard as well… What god does is good because god says it’s good is circular. At least my standard isn’t based off of just what someone happens to do, but focuses on the actual positive and negative consequences on well being, which to me, matters a lot more. In fact, I’d even argue that that’s what you really have as your standard since you want to go to heaven because of the bliss and avoid hell because of the suffering. If heaven was a place with god and suffering and hell was a place without god and bliss, I’m sure you’d rather go to hell. Now please, answer yes or no to the question and we can go from there.
That is why it is so important to know if what you believe is actually TRUE. I am a Christian and believe in the one true God because of all the evidence for God and Jesus’ resurrection. You can’t just believe in something because your parents did or the area where you live does. You need to know and seek out if it is true. God gives us free will to be able to either choose his grace and mercy or not.
@@Twinmom412 Like the previous person, you have not answered the question. Remember, Muslims, atheists, and other religions do believe that the evidence supports their position. That’s why I have purposely included the word ‘mistakenly’ in my question. People have searched for the truth and come to different conclusions. Something god could have prevented by properly revealing himself, but we do not need to get into divine hiddenness today. I just want my question answered.
@@carolfalls8466 Once again, that is not an answer to my question. Belief isn’t a choice. You’re either of convinced of something or you’re not. Unless you truly believe that every single person who doesn’t die a Christian knew the truth of it and yet still purposely chose to reject it, then this isn’t an answer. And if you do believe this, I would encourage you to do people the courtesy of believing them when they tell you that they do not believe. Because what you’re doing is nothing more than preaching, no different to a Muslim telling me that all Christians know the truth about Allah but all decide to reject him anyway. Please, just answer the question, and we can go from there.
Why in the hell are we so invested in believing there is a hell? Over the years, one of the hardest truths for some people to accept is that there is no hell. Why do people fight so hard to believe in a God that would burn us?
It might not be literal fire. Have you ever felt grief? It is the longing for someone you love and can't live without. It is this separation from God that would be suffering. None of us likes to believe in hell but Jesus taught about it. I hate the idea for anyone to go to hell but I trust that only God knows why this has to be.
@@chardo24 I didn't turn to God out of fear but out of love. I only began to believe in hell because Jesus taught about it. Did you turn to God in love like I did? It was when I realized that He loved me and had a purpose for me. Maybe it was like that for you, too?
@@kathykardashian7750 Hell is the lack of love.When there is no love that is what hell feels like. I always only felt God's love.I never felt an angry God. Jesus taught about love God. To love people.He taught about forgiveness, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Not to judge others because we do not know who anybody is.
@@chardo24 Yes, God is a forgiving God and the Gospel message is that God forgives us if we believe. God is also love. Hell would be to be separated from that love. Jesus forgave that woman for her sin but that doesn't mean she made it to heaven. He had to die to pay for that sin and all other sins and she would have to believe in Christ to be forgiven of all her sins. Jesus mentions judgment and condemnation throughout the gospels. He does judge but He can choose to forgive if a person repents. Maybe that woman was very sorry at that moment for her sin.
I would love to see Chris Date on here to explain anhilliationism. Fits much better with the character of God and the text imo. Solves all of these problems. The amount of people who believe in eternal bodily torture who are trying to carve out a way for people to “get out” shows they know there is a problem with their position, I just think they haven’t heard other positions like anhilliationism
That's better than eternal conscious torment, but it also means we'd have to be brainwashed to forget our loved ones that were annihilated. Does God want to save us, or a robot version of us?
@@nathanielkeane8462 Ripping a verse out of context is not a valid way to establish doctrine. You are welcome to admit that you believe in a God who will brainwash you into thinking it okay that your loved ones, maybe your children or your siblings, no longer exist. If you have to be brainwashed into eternal bliss, it isn't really eternal bliss.
This is such a flatly bad argument. The passage from Hebrews can't be taken to say "we will die, then immediately after experience judgement", because everyone a posteriori already knows that there will be some time between death and judgement. There are also many views about what this judgement means and how it will take place that need be taken into account. Further we must consider whether or not that judgement is final and irrevocable, as many universalists like to point out, they believe in judgement, but the point of God's judgement is to invoke repentance in people, it is not retributive. Also "no scriptural support" just tells me this guy has come from a reading tradition which easily glosses over the passages which fairly clearly support this.
These is no hell now. There is no eternal hell. Hell is in the future after the wicked are judged as stated in Rev 20. God IS NOT a monster. The wages of sin is DEATH, NOT ETERNAL TORTURE. There is no way for God to be just and merciful and yet torture the lost for eternity. Anybody who thinks that makes sense, is either ignorant or a sadist.
New Age? The early Church believed that all would be saved for the first 500 years of its existence. This is an ancient belief, not "New Age". Whether you agree with the early Church or not, the fact remains that the majority believed it. Even St. Augustine mentions that fact.
@@jasonspencer8558 Yes, you've confused "New Age" with "recent"; New Age beliefs can be a regurgitation of ancient beliefs. For example, reincarnation is a New Age belief but has been around for millennium. Unfortunately for you, it's not "the majority believed X therefore it's true" in Christianity; it this thing called the Scriptures that every doctrine must be examined with
@@SES06484 I don't confuse the two. Most people out there assume it means something new, though. I never said that a majority automatically equals truth, but it does give you pause to consider, especially since these people lived and believed and worked long before the biblical canon was established.
@@jasonspencer8558 Are you elevating non-Scriptural words on the Scriptures? Degrading the Scriptures, by the way, is another New Age belief/practice. Unfortunately for you, it's not "the early church believed X therefore it's true" in Christianity; it this thing called the Scriptures that every doctrine must be examined with
NO. When jesus returns and takes his followers (and all will see him coming on the clouds) he will give the world 1000 years chance to repent but they do not repent. I think this is more than fair. Jesus said: who ever does not believe he is already judged. and no one knows what in heaven but who descended from heaven son of man who is in heaven. we can not depend on a book or a human opinion we can only trust the word of god. if god send someone who never heard of the gospel to hell , it is justice because punish him because of his sins not because of his knowledge which actually god sees no excuse to not believe in him because the sky declares his glory.
I get the impression that Christians do not believe that death really is the end of you. If they did they would not be chatting happily away about the afterlife.
So yes, you would be able to get out of hell. It’s simple logic. If someone is truly repentant, a loving God would release them. You don’t need to be a Scholar. Ask God, He will show you. It’s funny that this man is judging them based on a non-existence of a soul being released in the Bible. But he also provides a loophole for some based on subjective reasoning. This is the reason people don’t become Christians or step away. They either believe that God is unjust, or that Christianity has it wrong. God is love. God is not a tyrant. God would never let a soul be in ever lasting torment. Some may not repent, yes, but that’s their choice. Living in hell for them is what they want. The fear that false teachers instill in believers actually separates them from the rest of humanity, and overall leads to less love around the world. These preachers that promote fear are disobeying Jesus’ two most important commandments. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself. You do not love God or your neighbor if you push them away from God. You love your books, and need them to tell you what to do. It’s simple, really.
There is no age of accountability. We are sinners from birth and cleansed in Holy Baptism. Baptisted babies go to heaven but we don't know what happens to unbaptized babies. But no one enters heaven with faith in Jesus Christ- including babies. That's what baptism is for. To give babies faith. To wash away the original sin of Adam and Eve.
@@robertdouglas8895 I'm nothing. What I've got to say doesn't mean a hill of beans. But what Jesus says in the Word counts for everything.Dont stone the messenger
@@jennifercavanagh3025 Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He who believes not shall be dammed" Psalm 51 "I was conceived in iniquity and in sin did my mother give birth to me. Babies are born sinners. Jesus said the wages of sin is death. As mentioned above "he who believes will be saved". How does a baby believe (have faith) and be saved. It needs faith. Hebrews, "without faith it's impossible to please God." Show me from the Scriptures how I'm wrong.
"There's tons of reasons to trust the goodness and fairness of god..." Then name some, Alisa. Give us some of those reasons. You repeatedly declaim the goodness and fairness of a god who would condemn people to eternal torture for thought crimes. More to the point, this conversation between two seemingly intelligent adults attempts to elucidate some imaginary regulations surrounding said torture. You seem to be oblivious to the absurdity.
Condemning people to hell is not something a loving God would do. He has created eternity for us to return to him. Finality and death are illusions in a world full of them. You are on the earth but not of the earth. I don't get that from Scripture. I get it from my Teacher that Jesus left with us. I can love God with all of my heart, mind and soul because He loves us the same. Fear is the antithesis of love.
Im not sure where your going with this. You mean a loving God would never judge a person for sinning? Why would the Bible be full of references to judgement? If you dont get your inspiration from the Bible and cannot find support for this inspiration within the Bible you should question who is on the other side of that voice your listening to.
You write: 'Condemning people to hell is not something a loving God would do.' Is God then forced to meet our standard of what is right and good in order fo satisfy our expectations? 'Woe to the one who argues with his Maker- one clay pot among many. Does clay say to the one forming it, What are you making? Or does your work say, He has no hands' 'God made chosen vessels for honor & dishonor. God created vessels of wrath & destruction.' He sees, He knows and He is always good!
What God ultimately decides to do is OK with me... But during my time here on earth, I have decided to follow Jesus... No turning back, no turning back!!!
Question for you: why follow Jesus?
@@FatherBernard101
Because I believe the word and his promises and I have decided to start my everlasting life in Christ… 😇
I personally believe in eternal hell for those who have rejected the Gospel. But let’s say I’m wrong and the universalist are right. I’m not going to question my decision to live for Jesus here on earth.
Jesus is dead just like every other human that lived and died.
@@JamesRichardWiley
He’s dead to you and dead in your life. But he is alive to me and alive in me.
I shall see everlasting life, will you?
Do you believe in God?
If not, do you believe that only an intelligent being can design intelligent design.
Can A hybrid car be created by itself? No, you need an intelligent being to create intelligent design.
In the same manner, an intelligent being created the universe, created the world, created all of the animals and fish, and it was in his image and likeness that an intelligent being created human beings.
The creation itself proves there is a God!
A higher being who created us and all that we see in nature…
There’s no way all this beauty could have come from nothing as nothing only produces nothing.
0x0=0
Heck… 1 million x 0=0
Even if you gave 0 a million reasons it still could not produce a living cell!
Trust in God!
Trust in his promises!
Trust in Jesus!
He died for you and on the 3rd day he rose from the dead and he is alive and he wants to make you come alive and there is nothing more that he desires than to give you life and life in abundance!
Choose Jesus Christ and your life will never be the same again!
😇😇😇
@@JamesRichardWiley how can you be so sure?
“Once to die, and after that, the judgement”. That’s clear to me.
That's hardly clear whatsoever, especially if you look at the Greek and the overall context of the statement.
So you continue to live after you are dead?
Not in my reality.
@@JamesRichardWiley Depends on what you mean by "live". We are energy, and that cannot be created or destroyed.
@@JamesRichardWiley Out spirits live on forever either in heaven or hell.
@@Robert-xp4bn It is so clear that millions of people are following that God. Some of those people were ready to die for him in the anciant days, and they have, so that we could received the gospel by reading their testimony. Persecution happened also today, and I have friends who have died in afghanistan those last days because of their faith in Jesus, and their father Yahwe. So, either they are completely dumb, (or "manipulated"), either, they have met somebody who has shaken so much their world, that they were ready to die for him and to spread his word.
Be ready, because one day, you will meet him. And I hope, truly hope, that at that time, he will consider you his friend, not his enemy.
I think for me, the account of the rich man and Lazarus shows me that people do not leave their appointed place after the judgement. The rich man never asks to get out or ask for a second chance. He seems to realize that he is living out his judgement. He does ask for his torment to be lessened, but doesn't ask to get out.
That's a parable, and it was a common one in that day. Jesus didn't make it up. He simply put the poor man in paradise and the rich man in suffering, which was different than how it was normally told. The point wasn't to teach about the afterlife. The point was to take care of the poor.
@@jasonspencer8558 careful study should determine what you believe about a passage (not the other way around)
@@carolfalls8466 What a great answer!
@@jasonhilliker492 That's exactly what I've done for decades of my life. Careful study includes looking at the cultural context of the passage.
This is interesting and I like Jason Spencer's response.
The parable of the rich man is a warning and prophecy against Israel (Pharisees in particular) and has nothing to do with the afterlife.
Israel was given the role of taking the news and blessing of God and His kingdom to the nations and to be a blessing to all nations.
They failed and kept it to themselves and the Gentiles only got crumbs from the table and were seen as dogs.
Because of this failure, the kingdom was taken from them and given to the Gentiles. Israel is in torment but one day will be grafted back into the tree they were removed from and All Israel will be saved. That is the story and warning that the kingdom would be taken from them, which it was in 70 AD when Judaism was destroyed.
So, here are the players in the parable.
Rich man who was dressed in fine clothes, etc. When Jacob blessed his sons he made Judah head over his brothers and the scepter was to never depart from Judah. Judah (Israel) is the rich man in the parable. Also note that Judah had 5 brothers, just like the rich man.
Lazarus is the Gentiles. Eliezer is a Hebrew derivative of the Greek name Lazarus. Eliezer was the beloved servant of Abram who would have inherited Abrams wealth if Isaac had not been miraculously born. Eliezer was beloved by Abram (near his bosom). Eliezer was also a Gentile from Damascus.
Knowing these things puts the whole story into perspective and we also can see the fulfillment of it in what happened to Israel and the ending of the old covenant and beginning of the new.
Nothing to do with heaven or hell.
Gods love is unconditional. No one goes to hell.
Wrong!!!!
Nonsense ! A lie !
If there would be no hell, JESUS wouldn't have warned us befote !
Agree with you Alisa. Once we believe in the absolute goodness of God and that He is completely just as you said, we then can be at peace with these questions on this side of Heaven. Thank you for your steadfastness!
God will do what is right by people, amen. Those who choose eternal rebellion will get hell. Those who want His mercy will get it.
No one chooses eternal rebellion. God is patient for us to change our minds: metanoia.
I choose based on what is evident to me to be real. Since no god is evident to me I have no reason to believe.
@@reality1958 All of creation is clear evidence that there is a God.
@@robertdouglas8895 Universalism is a false teaching.
@@waynehampson9569 I don't just believe all of mankind will be saved. I believe all of creation will return to God. It doesn't make sense that He would let his pure creation turn to nothing.
Who cares what Martin Luther considered about a person getting a 'second shot'. (Amother oppporunity). What matters is what the Creator of heaven n earth says about a matter. 'This IS the day of salvation.'
Suggesting another shot is tantamount to upholding the notion of reincarnation, an ancient
belief of the heathens still held today.
But you base your beliefs off of the writings of other Christians. Who's to say your interpretation of Scripture is more correct than all those who came to conclusions contrary to yours?
Thank you for making this video! I am a longtime believer, but really struggle with this question. There’s research from thousands of people who claim to have crossed over (near death experiences) and the common report is that they were given a second chance to believe after experiencing hell.
Our God is more loving and just than we could ever possibly imagine. I’m well aware of the log in my own eye, so I’ll leave the judgement of others to God… 🙏
That's exactly the way I believe, we serve a loving and a just God, and I think he takes in consideration people's environment, they're exposure, and probably numerous other situations. But I do know, may not understand it all or how, but he will make sure that every single person gets the chance to accept the salvation or not. Again, I don't know how it will be done exactly, whether he makes sure that happens while they're alive or if they do get an opportunity, after they die. I definitely don't believe in some type of purgatory. But again, it's not God's will that any of us should go to hell, and I'm not saying that people won't be going to hell because they will, but he's going to make sure that everyone has the opportunity to believe and follow him.
Ultimately I believe that Alisa is correct when she says even if I don't know everything, I trust God.
But goodness. The Bible speaks plainly about people perishing and eternal consequences for our faith and actions here on earth, and it is quiet about whether or not there will be more chances after death. If a teaching is clear on a thing, and mostly quiet or indirect on another, then you follow the clear teaching. No overthinking necessary.
I will add that the first temptation of Satan was to get Eve to question God's word, and tell her that if she broke his laws she would not die. We should always be very careful to avoid any doctrine that questions the word of God, and tells people that violating God's laws won't necessarily condemn them.
It's a story.
A man made story that was written by humans, copied by humans and printed by humans.
@@JamesRichardWiley Psh. The Bible is a story with mountains of evidence to support it. Even modern atheist scholars attest that Jesus lived and was crucified.
Many people report a near death experience where they went to the bad place until they called out in prayer. Then they were taken up.
In Isaiah, God says that he won't hear the prayers of the wicked and unjust. I would question those accounts.
@@braedenh6858 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your father in heaven give good things to those who ask him? Matt 7;11
Courtesy of the human brain which creates all experiences. When the brain dies all experiences end.
I rely on my thinking, reasoning brain to inform my actions.
Bad decisions lead to future corrections.
@@JamesRichardWiley Quite a few scientist seem to think that the mind is something separate from the brain.
No! If you die and had a chance to believe wouldn't everyone choose heaven. Who sees heaven and hell and would pick hell. No chance! After death that's it!
What would be the problem if everyone picked heaven?
If you define Heaven as only all beautiful and sunshine yes everyone would however if you accurately define it as Keeping God the center of your identity then no people who have built their whole life around anything but God would not choose him
Liberals
2 things
1 if everyone chose heaven, how is that a bad thing
2 why are you sure someone who hates god would choose him in the second life? I think they could, but i dont know how and why they would suddenly change their minds. Some people rather burn in flames than be with the one they hate.
I am open to the possibility that there is some kind of opportunity for salvation after we die. We may be granted once to die and then the judgment, but there is a long period of time between death and when we appear before the Great White Throne. I think it's possible that there may still be some kind of time where repentance is still possible in the interim between the two. I'm obviously not saying that I know it for a fact, but I think that it would be consistent with the character of a God who truly "will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4).
I am encouraged that there is an openness to consider things that heretofore have been flatly rejected. That being said I am greatly disappointed in your lack of responding to questions or comments that are contrary to your doctrine. When people simply dismiss those who may have another point of view, in my mind their credibility evaporates. It makes me sad.
It all comes down to "well, don't think about it too hard" as usually I have yet to hear a satisfying argument for an eternal hell
Amen God is perfectly Just and Fair ✝️🙏🏽❤️
Except when he betrays Adam and Eve and kills unborn babies by the millions.
Did Luther “open the door” to that idea? Kind of a teaching of Catholicism way before him… “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.”
Jesus did say every sin will be forgiven man.
I believe people can cry out to God in death. Which is not the lake of fire, that is a different place where the wicked go.
I could right a book on this subject and use just three words and one scripture. "I don't know" with Deuteronomy 29:29 ESV
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
I became a Christian many years ago. I struggled with its theology. The backbone of Christianity is the idea of salvation by believing in the blood sacrifice of Jesus the Christ. If you don’t believe that idea, you then go to hell for eternity. As a Christian, each day I woke up thinking about all my friends and family members who didn’t believe in that blood sacrifice and for that reason were going to hell for eternity. How could I be happy knowing that my parents who would most likely die before me, end up burning in hell for eternity? Same for my brother and for everyone that I loved and cared for. Those bleak thoughts continued throughout my day every day. I felt isolated and in despair. I was going through hell each day. I eventually realized that I couldn’t spend the rest of my life with such thoughts. In the Gospel of John it says “Know the Truth and the truth shall set you free.” Well, I didn’t feel free.
I knew I could do one of two things. I could go numb and stop thinking about the tortures of hell for my loved ones or I could investigate further into spirituality. I decided to investigate spirituality. So, what I did was read what Jewish rabbis had to say about the Old Testament and the idea of hell in it. I learned from these rabbis that hell is a state of being not a permanent place that God sends people to. It is a negative state of being that can transform you into a better person. The pain of that negativity can do that. The fire in hell is a symbol of the purging of that pain. Suffering is the fire that can turn a person around and change their life in a positive way. That fire brought the prodigal son back to the father. We have all gone through that fire. Emotional pain can wake us up.
The scripture in the New Testament that best supports what the rabbis said is in Revelation 20:14
“death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.”
That line means that hell which are the conditions of negative emotions like anger and frustration are eliminated through a purging which is the lake of fire. So, hell and the lake of fire are not the same thing which is contrary to Christianity! Revelation proves that.
I encourage all of you to listen to a few rabbis on Utube and hear what they say about hell in the Old Testament. It will set you free as it did for me.
Thanks for the information. You may be pleasantly surprised by what most leading early church fathers believed too ..
"Christ saves all men. Some he converts by penalties, others who follow Him of their own will ... that every knee may be bent to Him, of those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" [Isa. 45:22-23, Rom. 14:11, Phil. 2:10-11, Rev. 5:13] -- *Clement of Alexandria,* _Commentary on 1 John_
"When death shall no longer exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then, verily, God will be All in all" [1 Cor. 15:28,55] -- *Origen,* _De Principiis 3:6.3_
"What else does 'until the times of universal restoration' signify to us, if not the aeon to come, in which all beings must receive their perfect restoration?" [Acts 3:21] -- *Eusebius,* leading historian of the early church, _Contra Marcellum __2:4:11_
"A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one." [Col. 1:15-20] -- *Gregory Nazianzus,* _Oration 42_
"Christ captured over again the souls captured by the devil, for that He promised in saying, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me.'" [John 12:32, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Psalm 68:18, Eph. 4:8-10, and maybe Matt. 12:29] -- *Athanasius,* _Expositions on the Psalms, 68.18_
"The peace [coming] from the Lord is coextensive with all time [eternity]. For all things shall be subject to him, and all things shall acknowledge his empire; and when God shall be all in all, those who now excite discords by revolts, having been quite pacified, [all things] shall praise God in peaceful concord." [Psalm 145:10a, 1 Cor. 15:28, Rev. 5:13] -- *Basil,* _Commentary on Isaiah 9:6_
"So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive." [Luke 19:10, 1 Cor. 15:22] -- *Ambrose,* _Exposition on the Gospel of Luke 15.3_
"For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual, ... but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period, according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end, awaits them; ... the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave crimes are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing, not only to the good, but also to the evil." [Isa. 57:16], *Diodore,* _De Oecon_
"Some among the wise and learned … have alluded to this in an enigmatic way, by adducing that God is not only just, but also merciful, and that it becomes the One who judges with justice to have sinners suffer in a measure that is proportional to their sins and then make them worthy of blessedness." -- *Theodore,* _Liber Scholiorum, 2:63_
"'All the kings of the earth shall adore him.' Some, indeed, in the present life willingly, but all the rest after the Resurrection; for not yet do we see all things subject to him, but then every knee shall bow to him." [The "kings of the earth" are rebellious unbelievers in Rev. 6:15, 17:2,18, 18:3,9, 19:19,21 ... but check out what happens in Rev. 21:24-27!] -- *Theodoret,* _On Psalm 72:11_
"Death shall come as a visitor to the impious; it will not be perpetual; it will not annihilate them; but will prolong its visit, till the impiety which is in them shall be consumed." [Matt. 5:26] -- *Jerome,* _On Micah 5:8_
"After the complete abolition of sin, praise shall be sung to God; which praise contain (implies) our being incapable of turning to sin ... when every created being shall be harmonized into one choir ... and when, like a cymbal, the reasonable creation, and that which is now severed by sin ... shall pour forth a pleasing strain, due to mutual harmony. Then comes the praise of every spirit for ever abounding with increase unto eternity." [Psalm 150] -- *Gregory of Nyssa,* _On Psalms, Tract 1, ch. 9_
Other church fathers who believed in eventual universal salvation include *Asterius, Bardaisan, Cyril of Alexandria, Didymus the Blind, Dionysius, Ephrem the Syrian, Gennadius, Hilary, John Cassian, John Chrysostom, Marcellus, Maximus the Confessor, Maximus of Turin, Methodius, Paulinus, Proclus, Titus of Basra & Victorinus.*
Sources: Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapters 4-5, 1905 & Ilaria Ramelli, _A Larger Hope?, Volume 1: Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich,_ 2019
@@tomm6167 Way too much copying and pasting from the Bible. I prefer a normal conversation using logic and one's intuition.
@@PeterProf7777 yeah, but when it's Biblical we can be actually sure of it right...😊
@@PeterProf7777thank you for sharing the question and the information❤... I too have been living in torment daily since the death of my unsaved loved one... And even now praying for his salvation, and about everybody going to hell... The idea itself torments my whole being.... So searching, for answers asking God to show me.
@@tomm6167thankk youu so much❤
Just pointing out that if there isn't a chance to repent after death (since the whole afterlife thing), that is a limitation to the work on the cross.
Yes, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Th rich man about to have conversations. If you can have conversation, you can communicate. If you can communicate, you can cry out for Jesus.
@@benstr8156 Exactly. And elaborating on this parable, if people take it to literally be heaven and hell, then people have to be able to talk in between, which most infernalists cannot accept.
Wise words, Alisa. Trust God. He’s just. 🙏🏻❤️
Macho God is merciful. He is going to gave us another chance for us to repent in Purgatory.
@@chardo24 food for thought:
If Jesus died for your sins and has removed them from God's sight, what is Purgatory for, and why would we be condemned for something that has been forgiven?
What if instead we are judged based upon our faith in Jesus? Then we would be condemned only for not having faith.
As Abraham was saved by his faith in a time before laws and Jesus, so can anyone be saved by faith.
So, finally, how can one come to faith after they have died? It would no longer be faith, because they would see clearly, as Lazarus did in the parable.
@@braedenh6858 Why in the hell are we so invested in believing there is a hell? Over the years, one of the hardest truths for some people to accept is that there is no hell. Why do people fight so hard to believe in a God that would burn us?
@@chardo24 Simple: because it's Biblical. It's mentioned in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Psalms, Revelations, and multiple epistles.
Either you think that that every one of those verses is misinterpreted and/or mistranslated, or you're ignoring them because you don't like them. I believe that they mean what they say, and I pay attention to them.
God is just. He will not burn the ones he calls his children, but there are consequences for rejecting him.
@@braedenh6858 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged." Mat. 7:1 Do not judge others because you do not know who anybody is.
Everyone will be given a chance to accept Jesus before they die, in a dream. Heart of heart’s.
Where do to det this from
Death is temporary a lot of us Christians forget about revelation the resurrection will happen too then the final judgment we will all have glorified bodies 1 Corinthians 15 KJV
God is Sovereign. End of story.
Your sovereignty includes a lack of patience.
I dont know what God chooses to do with me but I believe in Jesus after believing also I kept sinning not only small but so much but I still believe that God forgive me every time I sin but the only thing I fear that God may turn his back on me and do not get seperated for him because of my sin
Appreciate your comments on this subject thank you. Just read your book Another Gospel, very good book, highly recommended.
I think this exchange ended on an interesting note, in that both Lee and Alisa affirm that they are confident that God will act justly. However they also attest that there is evidence that God is just and loving elsewhere, suggesting that God's justice is something which must be demonstrated (as opposed to being defined by God's nature, actions, commands, etc.). By my lights this eludes to an external standard of justice/ morality to which God must adhere, which is strange given that (as far as I know) both Alisa and Lee endorse the moral argument. I think there's a tension there.
The evidence is for the unbeliever. I don't think either one is endorsing that God's justice is something we can only attest to if we see evidence of it, but rather that because God's nature/character is just, we will certainly see evidence of it even in the here and now. His justice extends far beyond the singular act of eternal judgment, but also includes justice in the order of things. He makes it to rain on the just and unjust is only one example of a scripture that points out that God doesn't show favoritism, he cannot be bought or coerced or controlled. He does what is right regardless of whether the recipient deserves the blessing or not. We all come to the knowledge of God through evidence, but the kind of evidence that makes us take notice is different for everyone. Anyone who claims that Christians believe without evidence is in error; that's an atheist claim.
@@jennifercavanagh3025 I suppose that's what I find tense about the relationship though. On one hand we want to say that justice is defined by God's nature, but on the other we point to features of reality that *show* that God is just. If God's nature is the standard of justice, then whatever he does is just by definition, we don't need to adjudicate whether or not he would/ wouldn't behave justly (and thus don't need to appeal to evidence in nature, scripture, etc.); our intuitions about justice are irrelevant.
If instead we investigate whether or not God is just (as Lee and Alisa gesture towards here), I think there's a tacit admission that there exist some "justice criteria" which God must satisfy beyond simply being God.
Perhaps to put it another way: if God's nature is just, how would we know? If it's true by definition, then Alisa and Lee are simply incorrect to say that there's "tons of evidence and tons of reasons to trust the fairness and justice of God." If it's true given that God satisfies such-and-such conditions, then Lee and Alisa are correct to talk about faith, belief, reasons, justification, and so on, but then they lose the moral argument as these objective values exist outside of God.
If a god is not evident to me, and it’s not, then I have no good reason to believe.
I love this conversation.
Lee Strobel is wrong. There are plenty of scriptures that suggest that one has an opportunity to repent after they leave this life (or age). It completely shocks me that he does not know that. Lee is also wrong about God being loving and just. God is love! His justice is an attribute of his love. That can be seen throughout all of scripture. In other words, his love and justice are not two completely different attributes. GOD IS LOVE! "For God has bound EVERYONE over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them ALL."
100%, my friend.
what about the Lazarus and the rich man in hell? Luke 16:26 And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
That is a parable, and it was a common one in Second Temple Judaism (heavily influenced by the Greeks). The point of the parable was to take care of the poor. It wasn't a primer on the afterlife.
Just a thought: for something that isn't even mentioned in the scriptures, it saddens me that the concept of Hell has caused an awful lot of confusion as well as a whole lot of good people turning away from the life, truth and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hell isn't mentioned but the Lake of Fire is...
Jesus talks about Hell more than anyone else and it's mentioned throughout the new testament...
@@linak7155 A literal lake of fire?
@@linak7155 What is the Lake of Fire? "Hell" is cast into it, correct?
@@ambitionroad No, he did not. He talks about Gehenna, Hades, etc. He never mentions the Greek idea of "hell". You are reading a bad translation.
Lee also mentioned that maybe judgement doesn’t happen right away or just curious what does that change so does that mean that while the person is dead people are praying him or her into heaven or is this person doing something in death to be allowed into heaven just exactly what goes on?
It makes me sad that people will willingly choose false religions or choose to remain agnostic/atheist & go to hell. Our God is fair, just & love.
Fair? You believe in a God that chooses to "burn" people for trillions upon trillions of years (and that's only the beginning). You believe in a God who imposes infinite penalties on finite sins.
@@jasonspencer8558 God doesn't 'choose' evil. People choose God or choose not to choose God. There are 2 ways to go: God & Heaven, or Satan & hell.
You choose which way you're going.
You might want to read books by former atheists Lee Strobel & Josh McDowell.
Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.
@@terrilynch7845 I never said God chooses evil. I said that God chooses to burn people for eternity, and you are perfectly okay with that. Funny thing: the Bible itself doesn't even present you with that choice: heaven or hell. That is found nowhere in the Bible.
Amen Alisa. To many people have such a hard time trusting God, me included but I'm working on it. Lol
You probably have a justifiable mistrust - mostly because we _should_ distrust other human beings who seem to act like they know what God says.
Let man account for his words and God account for God's Word
It would be malevolent, and unjust, for any god to punish unbelief. A god who chooses to be invisible/undetectable is encouraging disbelief.
Only someone who stubbornly adheres to materialism would claim it’s all rigged. Yet there are plenty of believers who have not seen and yet believe. Belief is simply trust that God is who he says he is. Even if you could see him, there’s no guarantee that you would trust or believe in him. Belief in this sense comes from the heart, not just observation. On judgment day, God will list all of the opportunities you had to believe and concrete evidence that you deliberately rejected him. I’d seriously question whether you truly have no reason to believe in God or if you simply don’t want to.
You make an interesting point, however its loaded with flaws.
1) "Unless my eyes see, I will never believe"
Your eyes cannot handle the sun.. you want to see with your eye the Creator who created the sun.
Why are you asking what your eyes cannot handle?
2) "Seeing is believing"
Take a doctor that smokes, knows more than you and I about the dangers of smoking.
He sees the cigarette pack containing a picture of a damaged lung along with a warning.
Still chooses to smoke.
Is he a believer or a disbeliever?
Isn't seeing is believing..
3) "There is no hell thats theist madness"
You might heard from a theist or two their limited understanding of hell and decided this is ridiculous, there is no hell.
Hell is a deep theological concept, keep it aside.
However does this mean, there are no consequences?
An atheistic view would hold no consequences to moral laws being broken.
Moral laws and hell are the madness of theists who make up stuff.
Live care free and be happy.
Taking that position is like a man jumping from a top building happy with the air going against his face not seeing his ground crash.
You break physical laws and what do you expect?
What happens to the smoker above that decides to break the health laws?
Consequences?
What happens to a person in a similar situation except he doesn't ignore the health warnings, he ignores the moral warnings, he chooses wickedness.
What can he expect?
No consequences because there are no laws..
YOLO, right?
4) How to see God?
Seek and you will find.
Matthew 7:7-8
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Submit your heart to God and you will see him.
Mark 12:30
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
Imam Ali (a.s):
Eyes cannot see Him face to face, but hearts perceive Him through the realities of belief.
Holy Quran 41:53
We will show them Our signs in the universe and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that this ˹Quran˺ is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is a Witness over all things?
5) Wired towards truth
You have a natural disposition to seek truth and shun falsehood.
Does that look like paving the way towards belief or disbelief?
Disbelief is a choice just like the smoker made his choices.
Holy Quran (20:48)
And We certainly showed Pharaoh Our signs - all of them - but he denied and refused.
Holy Quran 17:15
(...And We would never punish ˹a people˺ until We have sent a messenger ˹to warn them˺.)
6) A UA-cam video to watch if you don't bother.
Title: The meaning of life | muslim spoken word
UA-cam channel: Talk Islam
Peace.
@@Window4503 no…someone who realizes:
1. No god or “supernature “ has ever been demonstrated
2. All which we have discovered has been of the natural
Understands the logic that one cannot justify belief in fabled claims of invisible gods, demons, devils, etc.
If a god existed then that god would know how to reveal itself convincingly. And if a god wanted a relationship with mankind then that god would simply show up so mankind could have that relationship.
That no god has ever done this is telling.
@@IAlephI 1. It’s not just my eyes, it’s everything. I have no verifiable evidence for any gods. There is no flaw here. The great David Hume said it best…
“The wise man proportions his belief to the evidence.”
2. Yes the doctor knows the dangers of smoking, but his addiction is strong so he continues smoking.
3. Yes there are laws. Criminal, civil and social. We humans implement and devise these laws.
Just because you want there to be consequences…or life for that matter…beyond our death doesn’t mean it’s real.
4. People are capable of believing in just about anything. If you are “seeking” something you are already, possibly, prone to believing. You have taken that first step.
People believe in a lot of things. Our imaginations don’t stop at the end of puberty.
5. Yes we all have a natural disposition to seek truth and shun falsehood. However, different people exercise this disposition in different degree and in different ways.
There are people who are prone to conspiracy theories. There are people who, because they realize that because there is much that we don’t know, are prone to believing in things that have little to no evidence.
It is because I have chosen the disciplines of logic and evidence that I am unable to invest belief in things that are without sufficient evidence.
Thank you for your reply.
I struggle with this too as a person always drawn to many of the saints and Jesus. But I find it very difficult to reconcile an all loving and all powerful God with one that would allow eternal torment, too. It does not add up to me. It seems like we are missing something.
I feel like many more would be receptive to attempting to communicate if the aspect of love and compassion was more consistent. And as much as very devout Christians that lack a skeptical nature will say that God is love, for someone like myself raised in the Christian faith who loves Jesus but struggles with the entirety of the Bible, I feel I actually have put in more time than many of the condemning Christians...in actually struggling and trying to make sense of it all.
Even if the Bible stated that there are evil entities that could pull you off course and wound you, that would make sense in a world where some have done despicable things and you can get hurt by being in riskier situations or being near there. We could appreciate that this could happen spiritually, in the same way that walking alone at night as a single person is more dangerous than travelling in a group of good and trustworthy people, etc.
But even coming into harm by entities that could be evil would not be an insurmountable task if you were all powerful, eternal and all loving. If God was healing and forgiving, even if his spiritual children got wounded by not being as aware of the malevolent spirits for example, why would God have no ability to intercede? Ever? For all time?
I would say this very idea is somewhat unfair to God because it paints God as less loving, less fair and less able than I would have otherwise thought. And isn't that revealing? That in my actual doubtful nature, I have higher expectations for what God could achieve based on the fact that that very good humans would strive to meet those standards? And so my criticism is not just that the Bible seems contradictory to me at times but that it seems to make God seen weaker and less loving for that very reason?
And in a very real way I feel that my issues here are not issues with God at all but with humans who have ascribed motives and limits to God when on my own I would have assumed that infinite justice and love meant just that?
And that would mean that God would work to eradicate all suffering because why should anyone suffer? What good does it do to hurt someone for not understanding you?
It doesn't seem loving and no other faith would say this is evidence of love.
Even Jesus himself doubted God, in a sense doubted himself. So if even God as man can doubt the actions....I have faith that us humans, trying our best, questioning and never giving up trying to sense truth...would receive compassionate treatment for continuing to try to forge that connection. Not because some of us find it easy. But because it IS much harder for some of us to believe.
So I could call myself a supporter of Christ and I have huge empathy for anyone who has suffered, and when I focus just on the purest parts of the Bible, I can find beauty in it.
And I think that is the difference between being religious and being spiritual.
I believe that if there is a loving God, even if there was pure evil, that in a realm of eternal spirit begins, even those who had doubts could be redeemed and could see the truths of things "unseen" if God wanted to keep them safe.
This is the idea of God's grace. But it only works if God wants to truly save all who would come to him if they believed and it only works if a terrible punishment is not doled out for having doubts or fears. After all, no one asks to be born. Why should anyone be made to suffer at all, nevermind forever?
So yes, I struggle a lot with the Bible. I struggle even more with many of the so-called Christians who seem to lack compassion. Having faith is one thing, but if someone is losing sight of the fact that not all people see things the same way, then that is when religiosity becomes dangerous because people lose compassion and veer off towards evil actions, not good ones (hence the Crusades, hence the 'witch' burnings, hence the abuse of children in the church.)
So being doubtful is not the same as rejecting God. A person who actually doesn't care one way or the other would not even think long enough on the subject to have doubts. To be doubtful means you are spending time comparing what you are being told to what you have come to see has proven false in the past and the doubts are your concerns that something is not truthful, not stable, could become unsafe, poses a risk.
We need to have more compassion as a whole for all animals and all humans and not treat any life like it is less important or that people 'choose' to be hurt. When some Christians say that, it reminds me of people who criticize a woman for asking questions and who gets physically assaulted by an abusive partner for daring to have a mind, for daring to question.
We even know from the Bible that Jesus himself offered to let Thomas (doubting Thomas) to touch his wounds to confirm the truth of his (Jesus's) divinity. Doesn't that mean that Jesus has empathy and understanding for those who are drawn to his messages but still have a nature that tends to question things to ensure they are not of our imaginations?
Jesus could have chastised Thomas but he offered his side to him to be touched, where he was run through with the blade, so Thomas could truly come to full belief and no longer have any more doubts.
If Jesus was willing to provide evidence to help Thomas develop faith, doesn't that hint that it's not skepticism that Jesus dislikes at all? He obviously reprimands disloyalty - such as when someone actually betrays him, but he did not see skepticism as a betrayal. He realized some were more anxious to know for sure that what they were seeing is real, but many of the skeptics in the Bible were those Jesus held in high regard and also showed compassion for...
What he seemed to dislike were people who were showy and judgmental of others. People who acted like they were holier than thou but who lacked compassion. There are many instances where he did everything he could to prove his divinity.
Also, many Christians don't believe in a literal interpretation of hell at all. So if even Christians who are believers are constantly debating this, I have faith that a God said to be infinitely loving and kind would be even better at this than some humans are... :)
All very good questions.
CS Lewis disagreed on this premise. He famously said "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside" so that implies that the only thing keeping people in Hell is their desire to be there and if you want to claim Free Will is the reason people go to Hell you can't set arbitrary time limits on it.
Christian based testimony
Eternal hell makes so much sense to me. Grace and mercy are undeserved. God is not obligated to be merciful to all people, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy." When we sin as an imager of God we are slandering and misrepresenting the likeness of God. When I lie, I am saying I image a God that does not love the truth, and deceives to serve Himself. My sin is directly against the Creator God, God IS burdened by our sin against one another and ultimately Him. The cross represents God's wrath on sin, and sins affect on Him. The injustice of the world grieves Him far more than we could imagine. So the infinitely holy and eternal God is unjustly burdened by our sin; He deserves justice. Thus, we inherit an infinite and eternal weight of condemnation, loneliness, bitterness, and agony to the exact measure our deeds deserve. God does not desire to condemn (Lamentations 3:33, Ezekiel 33:11), the judgement of the heavens and earth were not the point of His creation. But God judges because He is righteous and is settled against the corruption and rebellion of His once perfect creation. We only have hope all wrongs will be accounted for because of His justice, and hope that all will be treated fairly by His righteousness.
When God speaks to Abraham about the people of Sodom, we know God wouldn't destroy anyone righteous. God knows beyond what we know, he knows us. It'll be fair and just when it happens.
Beautiful!! 😍
Mr. Strobel, while I respect your opinion I believe you've forgotten Romans 1:18-20 which says, "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth through unrighteousness. For what may be known about God is clear to them since God has shown it to them. The invisible things about Him-His eternal power and deity-have been clearly seen since the creation of the world and are understood by the things that are made, so that they are without excuse." What further chance would anyone need than to recognize His personal display in His Creation?
Was thinking the same thing!
But many people do not believe that is not evidence of God, or that it is equally evidence of other God.
The thing is...there is no evidence. There cannot be if someone has faith. Faith operates on the absence of evidence, otherwise believing in God would be scientific, and it's not.
So that portion of the Bible is illogical and that means either God is illogical or God did not actually say that, which means a man wrote that.
And we know many men wrote that. What I struggle with are the parts of the Bible that are sexist and violent and so on, and the fact that it seems to be written by many different minds ...because it was. But that means either part or all of it is contaminated because a lot of it is contradictory. For example, loving people do not torture others. For God to be okay with torturing others, presumably most of his creations, he is either not loving or he cannot control someone else torturing others, which means he is not all powerful.
Taken as a whole the Bible is the opposite of evidence-based. Taken passage by passage, some passages promote love and compassion, others promote cruelty.
This is why I feel there is such a divide between Christians and such a divide between the responses to Christianity. Not because all Christians are bad or cruel or would mock others, shun them and so on, but because some do. And that's because there are issues with the Bible.
Somewhere along the lines it seems aspects of it were corrupted. And I struggle with belief because the aspects that restrict compassion and indeed provide discussion that eternal torture is even a possibility....it makes me wonder why someone would support such a faith? And my belief here is...fear.
And isn't that a problem too? If you only love God out of fear, is that pure love? I would argue no.
So I struggle the most with that, even though I would say I am a good person. I give to charity, I am kind to animals, and I would show love to anyone who needed it. But those are the questions that trip me up.
But for the Bible itself to speak of evidence, that is problematic in a sense because faith is about having no evidence and still believing. Most forms of belief, in the philosophical sense, are about having experience in an area from which a certain confidence grows and then you trust in a person etc.
So those are the parts of the Bible that trip me up. Whereas other parts are quite beautiful.
Take care. ❤
His ways are unsearchable and past finding out.Rom., Ch11
The Bible makes it extremely difficult to tell whether or not those in Hades (NOT GEHENNA) can be redeemed. We know there are both faithful and unfaithful in Sheol during the Messianic Age, but we are never told the fate of the unfaithful that died post-crucifixion. We are technically judged twice in the entire Bible: once after death, another time during the Final Judgement. Many believe those in Gehenna don't want to repent, given gnashing of teeth in "Outter Darkness" (Gehenna) is present.
Earthly prayers can be heard after we die
1:13
Interesting.
"GOD in the storm before Job"-like moment to test the faith of those who were utterly deceived, never thought of that before.
It's far better to _inherit_ the kingdom of God by accepting Jesus Christ as our savior and giving our lives to Him before we die.
However ...
There _will_ be second chances (after death) for salvation:
UNTIL -- "I tell you the truth, you will not get out *until* you have paid the last penny." (Matt. 5:26).
THE FORGIVABLE SINS -- "Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not ... either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:31-32). The wording strongly suggests that all sins except one, including blasphemies against Christ, will be forgiven in the next age if they're not forgiven in this age. (For Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, compare Matt. 12:32 with Eph. 2:7.)
BAPTISMS FOR THE DEAD -- In 1 Cor. 15:29, Paul addresses -- and does not condemn (per se) -- the Corinthians' practice of being baptized for the dead. But this practice would have been absurd if one's eternal fate is sealed at death. Also, prayers for the dead were almost universal in the early church.
THE DEAD HEAR THE GOSPEL AND LIVE -- "For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may *live in the spirit* according to the will of God" (1 Peter 4:6). (Also see Psalm 68:18, Zech. 9:11-12, Matt. 12:29, Eph. 4:8-10.)
WHO IS THIRSTY? -- "The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come'. And let the one who hears say, 'Come'. And let the one who is *thirsty* come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price." (Rev. 22:17) The setting of Rev. 22:17 is the Rev. 21-22 new heaven and new earth, since the "water of life" is also mentioned in Rev. 21:6 & 22:1, and it's the Rev. 21-22 "Bride" who is speaking -- not the "church" or the "lampstands." But who are the thirsty ones? Who else is there? The thirsty ones must be those in the Lake of Fire, located outside the city gates (Rev. 22:14-15), which never close (Rev. 21:25).
SODOM RESTORED -- "I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them ... And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before" (Ezek. 16:53,55). In verses 47-55, the pronouns "their" and "they" identify the restored individuals as being those who were destroyed in Gen. 19 because of their abominations (Ezek. 16:50) and for other reasons (Ezek. 16:49). They will first need to be punished and purified in God's symbolic and refining Lake of Fire.
DRY BONES LIVE -- "Then he said to me, `Son of man, these bones are the *whole* house of Israel. Behold they say, "Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off."' Therefore prophesy, and say to them, `Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves, O my people... And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves, O my people. And I will put my spirit within you, and you shall live'" (Ezek. 37:11-14a).
BLINDINGS -- God has either directly caused, or permitted, various groups of people to be blinded to the truth (e.g. Mark 4:10-12, Rom. 11:25, 2 Cor. 4:3-4). This would seem to require an unblinded opportunity in the afterlife.
DEAFENING SILENCE -- The first 2/3 of the Bible is completely silent about Hell, and the last 1/3 uses the ambiguous-at-best Greek word _aion_ and its derivatives to describe Hell's duration. This makes no sense if (a) God is love and (b) eternal torment is true. There would have been clear and dire warnings on almost every page. For instance, why did Noah infinitely understate the penalty when he warned his neighbors only of a worldwide flood and not of eternal conscious torment?
EVENTUAL UNIVERSAL SALVATION EXPLICITLY TAUGHT -- See, John 12:32, 17:2, combination of (John 3:35, 6:37), Rom. 5:18-19, 8:19-21, 11:32,36, 14:11 , *1 Cor. 15:22,28* , Eph. 1:10, Phil. 2:10-11, 3:21, Col. 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, Titus 2:11, 1 Pet. 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev. 5:13, 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2, combination of (Rev. 22:1,14-15,17a,17c), Psalm 22:27,29, 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isa. 25:6-8, 45:22-25, 57:16, Lam. 3:22,31, Ezek. 16:53,55, Mal. 3:2-3. These verses, and many others like them, imply second chances.
2 Corinthians 6:2 KJV
[2] (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Though children that don’t understand I think about or the age of accountability, but all flesh is born in sin, wish there was more scriptures to represent this.
This narrative just doesn’t sit with me and a lot of other people too. God cannot just allow certain humans to burn in pain for eternity for not listening or believing in Jesus. Other religions follow similar principles just with out the figure of Jesus and Christian’s are saying they all go to hell too? Like Ghandi’s going to burn because he had other beliefs? This is ludicrous, I do believe in god and Jesus but it’s things like this that make look at the idea that it’s all just a way to control and keep society in check and I’m apparently gonna go the hell for eternity for even looking for a logical truth? What the f**k is going on
You're right to question this. Most leading early church fathers saw things very differently:
"Christ saves all men. Some he converts by penalties, others who follow Him of their own will ... that every knee may be bent to Him, of those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" [Isa. 45:22-23, Rom. 14:11, Phil. 2:10-11, Rev. 5:13] -- *Clement of Alexandria,* _Commentary on 1 John_
"When death shall no longer exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then, verily, God will be All in all" [1 Cor. 15:28,55] -- *Origen,* _De Principiis 3:6.3_
"What else does 'until the times of universal restoration' signify to us, if not the aeon to come, in which all beings must receive their perfect restoration?" [Acts 3:21] -- *Eusebius,* leading historian of the early church, _Contra Marcellum __2:4:11_
"A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one." [Col. 1:15-20] -- *Gregory Nazianzus,* _Oration 42_
"Christ captured over again the souls captured by the devil, for that He promised in saying, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me.'" [John 12:32, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Psalm 68:18, Eph. 4:8-10, and maybe Matt. 12:29] -- *Athanasius,* _Expositions on the Psalms, 68.18_
"The peace [coming] from the Lord is coextensive with all time [eternity]. For all things shall be subject to him, and all things shall acknowledge his empire; and when God shall be all in all, those who now excite discords by revolts, having been quite pacified, [all things] shall praise God in peaceful concord." [Psalm 145:10a, 1 Cor. 15:28, Rev. 5:13] -- *Basil,* _Commentary on Isaiah 9:6_
"So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive." [Luke 19:10, 1 Cor. 15:22] -- *Ambrose,* _Exposition on the Gospel of Luke 15.3_
"For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual, ... but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period, according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end, awaits them; ... the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave crimes are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing, not only to the good, but also to the evil." [Isa. 57:16], *Diodore,* _De Oecon_
"Some among the wise and learned … have alluded to this in an enigmatic way, by adducing that God is not only just, but also merciful, and that it becomes the One who judges with justice to have sinners suffer in a measure that is proportional to their sins and then make them worthy of blessedness." -- *Theodore,* _Liber Scholiorum, 2:63_
"'All the kings of the earth shall adore him.' Some, indeed, in the present life willingly, but all the rest after the Resurrection; for not yet do we see all things subject to him, but then every knee shall bow to him." [The "kings of the earth" are rebellious unbelievers in Rev. 6:15, 17:2,18, 18:3,9, 19:19,21 ... but check out what happens in Rev. 21:24-27!] -- *Theodoret,* _On Psalm 72:11_
"Death shall come as a visitor to the impious; it will not be perpetual; it will not annihilate them; but will prolong its visit, till the impiety which is in them shall be consumed." [Matt. 5:26] -- *Jerome,* _On Micah 5:8_
"After the complete abolition of sin, praise shall be sung to God; which praise contain (implies) our being incapable of turning to sin ... when every created being shall be harmonized into one choir ... and when, like a cymbal, the reasonable creation, and that which is now severed by sin ... shall pour forth a pleasing strain, due to mutual harmony. Then comes the praise of every spirit for ever abounding with increase unto eternity." [Psalm 150] -- *Gregory of Nyssa,* _On Psalms, Tract 1, ch. 9_
Other church fathers who believed in eventual universal salvation include *Asterius, Bardaisan, Cyril of Alexandria, Didymus the Blind, Dionysius, Ephrem the Syrian, Gennadius, Hilary, John Cassian, John Chrysostom, Marcellus, Maximus the Confessor, Maximus of Turin, Methodius, Paulinus, Proclus, Titus of Basra & Victorinus.*
Sources: Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapters 4-5, 1905 & Ilaria Ramelli, _A Larger Hope?, Volume 1: Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich,_ 2019
If you don't accept Jesus Christ as your savior when you die you go to hell and thrown into the Lake of fire 🔥
Okay what about a little African boy that never heard about Jesus gets killed and dies young he's going to hell? Give me a break
Your show rocks🇨🇦
And although death "appears" to be instantaneous to us here on earth, it may not be.
Luther was hardly the first. The church for the first 500 years after Christ held the majority belief that all people would be saved, in this life or the next. That's why Paul talks about praying for the dead, Peter talks about Jesus "preaching the Gospel" to those in the grave, etc. Why do you think the gates of Hell "will not prevail" against Christ? If people are already there, why the assault? I should also mention that most Jews do not believe in "hell". It cannot be found anywhere in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Everybody in this conversation is basing their answers and comments on the level of knowledge THEY have. God sees the level of knowledge everyone that has ever lived made their decisions based upon. Totally different story. You see you and judge all on that basis. God sees EVERYTHING and based His judgements on truth.
Someone that YOU would claim "has never heard" the gospel, God has said "they HAVE heard" enough to choose. Creation, existence, the stars, the beauty of life, it all speaks more than you know. God counts every response as a response.
Two people look at creation and see two different things. One sees God's amazing beauty, love and purpose. Another cannot stomach the thought of an evil, haughty Creator. You DON'T need ANY explanation of the gospel to one of those people. Choice has been made.
To those who are in a far flung culture without access to the gospel there are many, many stories of God sending messengers to those who desired to hear. The book "Eternity In Their Hearts" is a good place to start in this topic. God has left Himself a strong witness in every culture on earth. All who truly desire to know Him, He Himself seeks these people out. I know God. He has been just, that every mouth may be silenced and all will see He is true and every man a liar.
These conversations are lusted after by those who seek to discredit God. Sorry. It can't be done. The very fact that people are deluged with SOOO much knowledge of the Creator in our society and STILL reject Him with vengence only proves God's justice, His voice convicts and many still reject His matchless love and compassion. Don't waste your time on those who will not hear. Make disciples instead. Peace...
We will all be judged on Judgement Day when Jesus returns. Before then the dead who will be judged guilty are in one place and the dead who will be judged righteous are in another. Where is the subject of much debate.
It is clear that those who do not have the Law will be judged by a different standard than those who do.
Jesus told the Pharisees that since they have the Law they will be judged harshly.
To even slightly suggest that someone can come to the savings grace of Jesus Christ after death is heresy and that very statement might keep some from heaven. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BIBLE THAT EVEN SLIGHTLY SUGGESTS THAT!!!
Hades isn't Gehenna. The reason why I'm bringing this up is that judgement day is when Christ returns.
I agree with her God is just and His judgment fair I believe strongly in His yes and no.
You position is exactly what I held for years, because I loved God, and could not absorb hell. Now I am free by endorsing the Ultimate reconciliation Doctrine. Judgement and Hell has an end and ultimately all will be back to God. Judgement is true, but it is not Eternal literal Torment.
If Satan was going to teach a doctrine, universalism would be it.
The first deception of Satan was to have Eve question God's word, and then to tell her she wouldn't die if she broke it.
Telling people to question God's words about judgment and hell, and telling them that they will surely be reconciled in the end is simply an extension of that.
Paul writes that people will teach the doctrines of demons. Well, here you are, doing that.
@@braedenh6858 🫂
@@braedenh6858 yeah, Satan likes to paint a real loving picture of God. (sarcasm)
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
@@lifeoffaithlebanon Satan said that Eve wouldn't die if she disobeyed God.
That is what you are saying as well.
Claiming to be on God's side doesn't make it so. Your actions and beliefs tell the tale.
If there is a Hell where sinners are punished with no end in sight, then we can come to one - and ONLY ONE - conclusion which is: God is going to punish sinners for the same sins - repeat: SAME SINS - Jesus died for. Now why would God do this?
One day I hope you’ll rest in the universal love of God
I think that in theory a person in hell could have a change of heart and trust in Christ for their salvation, however I think the reason they are in hell is because they won't nor would have under any circumstance at any time in their life or afterwards have done so.
It is a shame that the desobidience of one man, was more powerful because causes All men became sinners, lost, and the obedience of one, Jesus, just save a few.
Praise God Jesus is more powerful than Adam:
"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive ... God [will] be all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22,28)
"As one trespass [Adam's] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [Jesus'] leads to justification and life for all men." (Rom. 5:18)
Only people who are in the spirit will know the truth. You can work your way out of hell. I knew I was going 2 hell, but today I got word from him saying "see, you can work yourself out of hell. The fire didn't burn you." We have 2 repent for all of our sins, without repentance you will not go into heaven. If you break the 10 commandments, you will not get into heaven without repentance. A lot of pastors speak false doctrine. I know, because I can now see straight through them because I walk in the "spirit", no I don't become a ghost and go 2 other places. Pastors sons tried telling me that I was going 2 hell. 1 they cursed me because you should only speak life over a person, and 2ndly they have 100 % sealed their fate because by doing that, they cursed themselves straight back. Unless they repent, they will not see heaven. We have 2 become like children, and the bible clearly says so. Anyone can look it up and you'll see I'm telling the truth. Also people who really are in God every single day (prayer and reading your Bible and getting stuck in the word) will receive revelation from God on a regular basis. It's a spiritual battle we need to fight. People think they can go 2 church on Sundays only and make it into heaven.... false doctrine!!! You can't go 2 church on Sundays and sin the rest of the week. If you can honestly say "yes I've lied, yes I have committed adultery, yes I've stolen etc and you haven't repented you won't see the kingdom. I'm part of the remnant, you can type in who are the remnant Bible verse. It should come up. I got my confirmation from God my saviour. Please everyone has 2 repent before it's 2 late. Most people are "sleeping" even pastors. A lot of churches worship idols. We should not make idols of anything in the heavens or in the sea etc. Having a cross in the church is idolatry. The church has fallen away from the truth. The remnant have come 2 tell the truth ❤🙏 that's why they can't cast out evil spirits etc like Jesus did in his day. Also gay people will not inherit the kingdom "man shall not lie with man, it's a abomination to God". You can repent and be healed. A ex gay man gave a testimony... he died from aids in hospital. His parents prayed feverishly while he was in hospital By the grace of God because of divine intervention he ended up being cured from aids and he even ended up getting married to a woman. I'm so greatful 2 God for waking me up in time, before it was 2 late.
Martin Luther is not the Gospel.
Answer: no. I don't believe the Bible teaches that.
If they could, or can, then Hell instantly becomes PURGATORY.
Also, see Luke 12:48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (New King James version)
I am not certain, but from the above passage, even if you cant get out, perhaps there are levels of punishment in hell...?
Question: what passage might Catholics use to support the idea of being "prayed out of Purgatory"? But even with that, there is the difference of being prayed out vs. working your way out.
You're so close. The early Church always considered "hell" to be a place of refinement and purging, not a place of everlasting punishment.
@@jasonspencer8558 can you cite a specific early church source that says that?
@@dabbler1166 Why not read some of the early Church fathers, such as Origen or Gregory of Nyssa? Furthermore, the actual language used in the Bible indicates this, such as the "lake of fire and brimstone", i.e., sulfur, which was used to cleanse, not destroy. I would argue that the Bible itself is an early Church source that shows this, then. There are plenty of books, podcasts, sermons, etc. out there, if you are actually interested.
No Scripture is clear that as it is appointed for man to die once but after that the Judgement. There are No Second Chance's Repentance and salvation can only be found while one is alive on earth. Hell is an inescapable eternal separation from God. That's my understanding of Scripture!
One other observation; Lee mentioned twice, the Hebrews verse about man dying once and after that the judgement. In Christ we have been there and done that. If one died for all (and He did), then all died. Jesus Christ took our judgement and we are judged righteous. As in Adam ALL die, so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. It takes theological manipulation to toss out those and other verses like them. Be fair and just in your review and analysis of all the views concerning eternity.
You are ditching A LOT of scripture to make that leap which is not biblical at all. Not everyone will be saved.
@@EVLS10 No, not ditching a lot of scripture, simply interpreting scripture differently than the traditional western church way of interpreting it. To negate the reconciliation of all, is to also ditch a lot of scripture. All died and all are made alive, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, every tongue will confess Jesus as LORD, God will be all in all, in Him we (all humanity) live and move and have our being, etc.
Yes there are scriptures that support other views. The key is your perception of Father, Son and Spirit. Are they truly love? Love is a noun by the way, not an adjective. Are they really good. Are they just? If they are just, what is justice from God's perspective. Is it the punishment of an offender or is it the healing and restoring of one who has become terminally sick? My Father is a loving Father and a master healing physician as opposed to a courtroom judge. What is your father like? My Father's kingdom is like a hospital and not a courtroom. How about yours? My Father's love and mercy, grace and forgiveness endures forever, not just until death do us part. How about yours?
@@bradharford6052
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
I could go on but there are a multitude of verses that make it very clear that not everyone will go to heaven.
The reality is that God is loving and a healer but you must first accept the free gift of life before you will be reconciled.
@@EVLS10 You misunderstand. Yes scripture says that ONLY those who believe come into life. Scripture also says that in the end, all WILL believe and confess. No conflict there. Case closed.
@@bradharford6052 No you my friend misunderstand. All will confess one day that Jesus is Lord. For many, it will be too late at that point. They will know the truth but they will not pass judgement because they rejected the truth when given the choice in life. Timing matters.
When you turn children whom God created as innocent into wicked you have to resort to all sorts of speculations to make it work out.
Born sinful is a christology that is not from God or Christ but false teachers.
What did Jesus teach about children and their goodness?
Furthermore Adam sinned therefore children are born wicked deserving hell is not compatible with justice.
Ezekiel 18:25
“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
Ezekiel 18:2
“What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: “’The parents eat sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
Ezekiel 18:3
“As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel.
But by all means Christ needs to die and he doesn't know that apparently when asking for salvation.
Because we all know the righteous thing is for Christ to be killed and the wicked thing is for him to be saved.
Right?
(When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.)
John 8:40
As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.
John 8:43
Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Lets all pray like Christ did, which is for him to be killed..
Oh wait..
the only thing I think the JWs may get right maybe after death having the chance to repent. Many Jews and Muslims who honestly followed their creator and due to no fault of their own stayed with theior religion, would see Jesus is the way and be let into heaven seems fair to me(but isn't discussed in NT scripture anywhere so its prob more of a hope than anything else
I just don’t see how it’s a possibility and to say those who never heard what about nature or the scripture that says God is revealed by His handiwork and because it’s luther it doesn’t mean he didn’t get anything wrong. Just disappointed in both Alisa and Lee
What about an unborn child?
Okay I always knew that hell is eternal and that’s it there’s no coming back or reincarnation or crossing from hell to heaven or vice versa, anddddddd then I read Jonah? NOW I AM SO CONFUSED……….
Here's a theory. Those who didn't have a chance during life to choose Christ, after they die will experience a dream-like sequence of events that they will think is reality, not realizing that they have already died; and in this dream sequence of events they will be brought into a situation or situations where they will be given the opportunity to be saved. IF during their real lifetime they would have made the right choice given the opportunity, then they will make the same right choice in the afterlife dream sequence. God would know this ahead of time, and once they make that choice all of the characters in their dream sequence will be revealed to be angels and the props in the dream sequence will fade away and the child of God will enter into the heavenly Jerusalem.
If on the other hand that person makes the wrong choice, given the opportunity that they had missed during their lifetime on earth, then all of the people in their after life dream sequence will reveal themselves to be the demons who will torment that individual for all eternity as he or she enters through the gate that reads "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here". Just a thought.
Question- when you die you’re confronted with Allah (or any other god that you didn’t believe in). Do you think you deserve eternal conscious torment for mistakenly repenting to the wrong god?
Yes or no? I think you can figure out the consequences of each answer when it comes to showing that god’s invention of hell is evil.
God made it clear in His Word, that there is only one God and who He is. Hell is not evil, it was created for those who are evil. You are judging God by your own standard. You aren't the one who gives the standard.
@@lightningbauer You have not answered my question. Please answer because what you’ve said is just a way to avoid the question.
Obviously it isn’t clear to everyone who god is, given that people genuinely believe in different gods or none. Denying so is the equivalent of a Muslim saying you know Allah is god and you’re purposely denying him.
So is every person who isn’t a Christian evil?
Sure. I’m judging god by a different standard. And you’re judging god by his own standard as well… What god does is good because god says it’s good is circular. At least my standard isn’t based off of just what someone happens to do, but focuses on the actual positive and negative consequences on well being, which to me, matters a lot more. In fact, I’d even argue that that’s what you really have as your standard since you want to go to heaven because of the bliss and avoid hell because of the suffering. If heaven was a place with god and suffering and hell was a place without god and bliss, I’m sure you’d rather go to hell.
Now please, answer yes or no to the question and we can go from there.
That is why it is so important to know if what you believe is actually TRUE. I am a Christian and believe in the one true God because of all the evidence for God and Jesus’ resurrection. You can’t just believe in something because your parents did or the area where you live does. You need to know and seek out if it is true. God gives us free will to be able to either choose his grace and mercy or not.
@@Twinmom412 Like the previous person, you have not answered the question. Remember, Muslims, atheists, and other religions do believe that the evidence supports their position. That’s why I have purposely included the word ‘mistakenly’ in my question. People have searched for the truth and come to different conclusions. Something god could have prevented by properly revealing himself, but we do not need to get into divine hiddenness today. I just want my question answered.
@@carolfalls8466 Once again, that is not an answer to my question.
Belief isn’t a choice. You’re either of convinced of something or you’re not. Unless you truly believe that every single person who doesn’t die a Christian knew the truth of it and yet still purposely chose to reject it, then this isn’t an answer. And if you do believe this, I would encourage you to do people the courtesy of believing them when they tell you that they do not believe. Because what you’re doing is nothing more than preaching, no different to a Muslim telling me that all Christians know the truth about Allah but all decide to reject him anyway.
Please, just answer the question, and we can go from there.
Why in the hell are we so invested in believing there is a hell? Over the years, one of the hardest truths for some people to accept is that there is no hell. Why do people fight so hard to believe in a God that would burn us?
It might not be literal fire. Have you ever felt grief? It is the longing for someone you love and can't live without. It is this separation from God that would be suffering. None of us likes to believe in hell but Jesus taught about it. I hate the idea for anyone to go to hell but I trust that only God knows why this has to be.
@@kathykardashian7750 Why the sense of trusting God has to be build on fear?
@@chardo24 I didn't turn to God out of fear but out of love. I only began to believe in hell because Jesus taught about it. Did you turn to God in love like I did? It was when I realized that He loved me and had a purpose for me. Maybe it was like that for you, too?
@@kathykardashian7750 Hell is the lack of love.When there is no love that is what hell feels like. I always only felt God's love.I never felt an angry God. Jesus taught about love God. To love people.He taught about forgiveness, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Not to judge others because we do not know who anybody is.
@@chardo24 Yes, God is a forgiving God and the Gospel message is that God forgives us if we believe. God is also love. Hell would be to be separated from that love. Jesus forgave that woman for her sin but that doesn't mean she made it to heaven. He had to die to pay for that sin and all other sins and she would have to believe in Christ to be forgiven of all her sins. Jesus mentions judgment and condemnation throughout the gospels. He does judge but He can choose to forgive if a person repents. Maybe that woman was very sorry at that moment for her sin.
I would love to see Chris Date on here to explain anhilliationism. Fits much better with the character of God and the text imo. Solves all of these problems. The amount of people who believe in eternal bodily torture who are trying to carve out a way for people to “get out” shows they know there is a problem with their position, I just think they haven’t heard other positions like anhilliationism
That's better than eternal conscious torment, but it also means we'd have to be brainwashed to forget our loved ones that were annihilated. Does God want to save us, or a robot version of us?
@@jasonspencer8558 scripture says “we will not remember the former things”.
@@nathanielkeane8462 Ripping a verse out of context is not a valid way to establish doctrine. You are welcome to admit that you believe in a God who will brainwash you into thinking it okay that your loved ones, maybe your children or your siblings, no longer exist. If you have to be brainwashed into eternal bliss, it isn't really eternal bliss.
This is such a flatly bad argument.
The passage from Hebrews can't be taken to say "we will die, then immediately after experience judgement", because everyone a posteriori already knows that there will be some time between death and judgement. There are also many views about what this judgement means and how it will take place that need be taken into account. Further we must consider whether or not that judgement is final and irrevocable, as many universalists like to point out, they believe in judgement, but the point of God's judgement is to invoke repentance in people, it is not retributive.
Also "no scriptural support" just tells me this guy has come from a reading tradition which easily glosses over the passages which fairly clearly support this.
These is no hell now. There is no eternal hell. Hell is in the future after the wicked are judged as stated in Rev 20. God IS NOT a monster. The wages of sin is DEATH, NOT ETERNAL TORTURE. There is no way for God to be just and merciful and yet torture the lost for eternity. Anybody who thinks that makes sense, is either ignorant or a sadist.
NO!
什么 ？
Childers and Strobel embracing New Age theology; how sad.
last people i expected it from , but i agree this upset me
New Age? The early Church believed that all would be saved for the first 500 years of its existence. This is an ancient belief, not "New Age". Whether you agree with the early Church or not, the fact remains that the majority believed it. Even St. Augustine mentions that fact.
@@jasonspencer8558 Yes, you've confused "New Age" with "recent"; New Age beliefs can be a regurgitation of ancient beliefs. For example, reincarnation is a New Age belief but has been around for millennium. Unfortunately for you, it's not "the majority believed X therefore it's true" in Christianity; it this thing called the Scriptures that every doctrine must be examined with
@@SES06484 I don't confuse the two. Most people out there assume it means something new, though. I never said that a majority automatically equals truth, but it does give you pause to consider, especially since these people lived and believed and worked long before the biblical canon was established.
@@jasonspencer8558 Are you elevating non-Scriptural words on the Scriptures? Degrading the Scriptures, by the way, is another New Age belief/practice. Unfortunately for you, it's not "the early church believed X therefore it's true" in Christianity; it this thing called the Scriptures that every doctrine must be examined with
NO. When jesus returns and takes his followers (and all will see him coming on the clouds) he will give the world 1000 years chance to repent but they do not repent. I think this is more than fair.
Jesus said: who ever does not believe he is already judged. and no one knows what in heaven but who descended from heaven son of man who is in heaven.
we can not depend on a book or a human opinion we can only trust the word of god.
if god send someone who never heard of the gospel to hell , it is justice because punish him because of his sins not because of his knowledge which actually god sees no excuse to not believe in him because the sky declares his glory.
God decides.
You all cannot understand scripture! It’s very sad to see and hear! This is why the world is in this state!
Nope!
lol
Heard a witness from a woman who went to hell and came back. It was really authentic.
Yeah I don’t believe that. Once the soul leaves the body, that’s it.
Lee sounds like Peter Griffin
lol
I get the impression that Christians do not believe that death really is the end of you.
If they did they would not be chatting happily away about the afterlife.
Death is only the end of your mortal body, but not of you. Your body is just the house that you live in temporarily.
So yes, you would be able to get out of hell. It’s simple logic. If someone is truly repentant, a loving God would release them. You don’t need to be a Scholar. Ask God, He will show you. It’s funny that this man is judging them based on a non-existence of a soul being released in the Bible. But he also provides a loophole for some based on subjective reasoning.
This is the reason people don’t become Christians or step away. They either believe that God is unjust, or that Christianity has it wrong.
God is love. God is not a tyrant. God would never let a soul be in ever lasting torment. Some may not repent, yes, but that’s their choice. Living in hell for them is what they want.
The fear that false teachers instill in believers actually separates them from the rest of humanity, and overall leads to less love around the world.
These preachers that promote fear are disobeying Jesus’ two most important commandments.
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
You do not love God or your neighbor if you push them away from God. You love your books, and need them to tell you what to do. It’s simple, really.
There is no age of accountability. We are sinners from birth and cleansed in Holy Baptism. Baptisted babies go to heaven but we don't know what happens to unbaptized babies. But no one enters heaven with faith in Jesus Christ- including babies. That's what baptism is for. To give babies faith. To wash away the original sin of Adam and Eve.
You have figured out how to make yourself special and others not so much.
@@robertdouglas8895 I'm nothing. What I've got to say doesn't mean a hill of beans. But what Jesus says in the Word counts for everything.Dont stone the messenger
wrong
@@jennifercavanagh3025 Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He who believes not shall be dammed" Psalm 51 "I was conceived in iniquity and in sin did my mother give birth to me. Babies are born sinners. Jesus said the wages of sin is death. As mentioned above "he who believes will be saved". How does a baby believe (have faith) and be saved. It needs faith. Hebrews, "without faith it's impossible to please God." Show me from the Scriptures how I'm wrong.
So why did god design us “sinners from birth”?
"There's tons of reasons to trust the goodness and fairness of god..." Then name some, Alisa. Give us some of those reasons. You repeatedly declaim the goodness and fairness of a god who would condemn people to eternal torture for thought crimes. More to the point, this conversation between two seemingly intelligent adults attempts to elucidate some imaginary regulations surrounding said torture. You seem to be oblivious to the absurdity.
Condemning people to hell is not something a loving God would do. He has created eternity for us to return to him. Finality and death are illusions in a world full of them. You are on the earth but not of the earth. I don't get that from Scripture. I get it from my Teacher that Jesus left with us.
I can love God with all of my heart, mind and soul because He loves us the same. Fear is the antithesis of love.
Im not sure where your going with this. You mean a loving God would never judge a person for sinning? Why would the Bible be full of references to judgement? If you dont get your inspiration from the Bible and cannot find support for this inspiration within the Bible you should question who is on the other side of that voice your listening to.
@@lawrencekuhlman9405 I don't need to question. I hear the Holy Spirit in peace, but I have to come to peace to do so.
@@lawrencekuhlman9405 The final judgment is when we all return to God. It's when no one any more thinks he is special. We are all one. John 17.20-23
if your "teacher" doesn't agree with the Bible, then it's not the Holy Spirit
You write:
'Condemning people to hell is not something a loving God would do.'
Is God then forced to meet our standard of what is right and good in order fo satisfy our expectations?
'Woe to the one who argues with his Maker- one clay pot among many. Does clay say to the one forming it, What are you making? Or does your work say, He has no hands'
'God made chosen vessels for honor & dishonor. God created vessels of wrath & destruction.'
He sees, He knows and He is always good!