I agree completely because I believe what you're saying is you dislike the dps who want to strut their stuff and go running ahead of you, pulling all the agro then complaining when they die!
@@davidhurcombe6505 Yeah, then you get stuff like "Shit tank!! Fake tank!! Tank is useless!!" etc... If they just let the tank do his job it would be so much easier for everyone.
I had to actually put ring of wild hunt with swift trait to make sure that no dps out runs me. And even after that it's painful to watch dds to try to light attack a boss to death, cannot follow mechanics and cannot interrupt.
I still love tanking... because I learn the mechanics and never go into group chat. I pug vet hm pledges everyday. I drag nit-wits to completion in perfect silence or while joking with buddies in party chat.
For me the key is to just show some basic consideration for the team you're about to join in the queue. You don't need to be a meta specced tank/heal/dps for a random normal but some basics are nice. 1. Queue as a DPS? Try to do some actual damage (as a tank main I die a little inside when I realise my random normal is going to take 3 times as long because the combined group dps of the 1000+ CP players is under 30k. 2. If you queue as a tank, slot a taunt and hold the bosses still. 3. If you queue as a healer, slot some sort of heal and maybe an orb. The biggest problem isn't fake tanking, it's just lack of consideration for other players.
@47IQ first of all, I assume you are trolling because I have never needed or will ever need a carry in eso. If anything it's usually quite the opposite..difference is I dont mind and I'm not self absorbed. You obviously proved my point..not that you needed to.
In normal non-dlc dungeons I don't really care if there is a fake tank, yet in some dlc dungeons even on normal I would definitely prefer to have a dedicated tank for sure!
i tanked everything on dps on normal. the only times its close to an issue is when 2 dps are very new and doing little to no dps, when this happens im glad im on a dps so the dungeon gets done regardless of whos in the group.
I think fake tanking on any dlc dungeon is possible aswell,just 1 person need to slot taunt and get some powerful dots and use dmg shield or even do block.
@@monalisa-bs4zs If you "tanked" you were obviously a TANK!!! Tanks can do damage as well. I tank all non-DLC vet dungeons on dps gear, but I'm no less of a tank because I also do damage. I use sword and shield, pierce armor, inner beast etc, so the group won't be lacking any of the usual tank skills, buffs and debuffs.
@@jonathansoko1085 Most people do it for quick XP to level skills or for transmutes. If you're in a random group it can take ages to complete even on normal or some dungeons are just inherently long like Fang Lair or Unhallowed Grave.
If getting transmutes were easier, I assure you lots of people wouldnt need to fake tank. Transmutes is probably the most valuable currency in game cause there's a limited amount you can really get in one day. No matter what your cup of tea is in eso, you need transmutes to get proper traits on gear, or trait change whenever the game changes. If possible, I'd probably never touch a dungeon ever if I didn't need transmutes to change my gear or reconstruct gear every few patches
I disagree with this, transmutes although useful are only useful for trait changing which you don’t need to do much unless you are using lots of different sets on different characters. Personally I find myself with to many crystals a lot of the time.
@@jordanparis964 Name a currency that is technically more valuable, i will wait. Just because YOU dont utilize them as often doesnt make this not so. If you are a meta player, they are a must. Or even if you just care about your sets, they are incredibly valuable
@@jordanparis964 That's because you're a noob with a few bad builds struggling to finish a normal dungeon. Any experienced player will have 10+ builds to manage for each character and situation.
Transmutes are a scapegoat. Dps have always and will always queue as support for the insta queue. I’ve been playing long enough to remember when you could queue as tank healer and dps and just float into any available group. In those days transmutation wasn’t even a thing and the game was still rife with fake healers and tanks in random vet and normal. People are just lazy and love to cut the line to get the rewards.
@@ManoHSM actually most high end pver/pvper need those huge transmutes for different toons and occasions... i have 18toons which 8pve active 6 pvp active i need farm lots of transmutes for coming patches constantly
Instead of having T, H, D, D like we have today, have a set of 4 drop downs with roles in the Dungeon Finder screen. Choose the roles that you want in your group. Want a 4 DD group? Great. Change the dropdowns to those roles (radio buttons would be easier, but they don't exist in the eso interface). For anyone in your party already, the options would be greyed out and pre-filled, so you'd only be able to change the dropdown for the "missing" party member(s). So let's say you have 3 people in your party who are self-assigned DD roles, and you're looking for a tank. You'd change the "open slot" dropdown to tank. Then, when you queue, you'd only match with a tank who was ALSO looking for T, D, D, D setup, because that's how they set their dropdowns on their end. That way, no one is surprised at who shows up, no one has to fake tank. Folks could get the kind of party they want because they selected it. Newer players would have some assurance that they're going to have a legit healer and tank in their party, and more ambitious players can throw caution to the wind, and no one wonders who'd going to get in party with them. Does not solve the "5k DPS" problem, but that's a tragedy for another day.
Thus sounds nice on paper, but will just create a multitude of queues, insted if one long queue we'll have the issue battleground queue had, it was sitting everyone who queue'd into way more wait lines than needed
There is TOTALLY an interest in this, too. A fairly new guild on PC EU called 'Story Mode' founded itself entirely on giving newbies and others people to run dungeons slowly with and its population exploded *fast*.
100% agreed, I hate catching up with the content. It's especially egregious when it comes to trials which are always a major part of expansion's storyline (or even the overarching one like it was with Vvardenfell and Summerset). It's even worse when you're like a 1k CP returning player trying to catch up and everybody expects you to major expedition sprint from boss to boss ignoring adds I'd join the guild if I wasn't at cap X)
Nefas 100% on point here. We all differ in our experience of fake tanking and ultimately none of our experiences are the issue. The problem is zos making this a player problem instead of adding a tiny bit more functionality to the game.
"Toxic" is when you've joined a dungeon queue as a dps, and you're clearly playing as a dps in the group, and someone votes to kick you for being a "fake tank." LoL, not sure how they arrive at that conclusion, but it's happened to me a couple of times.
True. Any WoW players from a few years ago will know that Dps-Tanking was something you would only ever see elite players do. And you’d be glad for the boost! … That is because THE DIFFICULTY OF NORMAL - WAS ACTUALLY STILL FAIRLY CHALLENGING! And not a complete and utter pathetic PG-rated faceroll like ESO’s “Normal.”
@@supertrexandroidx “Toxic” is 95% of people who throw around the brand new accusation of “toxicity” at will like it’s the new perfect shield against all their woes. For real
Main tank here, I do like the solution proposed, I believe I've actually watched that Lucky Ghost video too on the subject. I can mostly adapt myself to either type of group but there's never a guarantee that all 3 teammates I get will be on the same side of the fence when it comes to speedrunning the dungeon or taking our time. Another solution I'd like to see implemented though, which is something that both the community and ZOS should work toward, is encouraging people to be tanks. I remember having a terrible experience as a new tank in one particular run of Moonhunter Keep a long time ago when it was my first time going through that dungeon and not knowing anything. My bad experience though was a mixture of the dungeon being unfun to tank and a DPS player acting toxic. That could very well have been a quit moment for me and I would have quit the tanking role (fortunately it did not deter me and that was a very isolated incident). Point being that another way to fix fake tanking is to help nurture and grow the actual tank community so that people want to tank, both by providing a better gameplay experience for them and being understanding toward them. Edit: I just also remembered that in my browsing I've seen some ESO videos on the topic of "how to have fun as a tank" and frankly I thought that was kind of sad that this is a discussion some people have.
Hi thanks for sharing and yes if you haven't done so feel free to check my previous video out on why there are no tanks in ESO. You may or may not agree with the points but one of them was people being too harsh.
Main Tank here too. I agree with all points you made on why tanking is often not fun. Either I am holding the group back (full heavy armor dragging me vs. teleporting mages or speeding orcs in worst case situation and barely stamina left to start the encounters) or I am expected to save their butts after they pulled everything, which is stressful because instead of a controlled pull I have to chain in scattered npcs. Fake tanking works if the fake tank can solo damage wise the dungeon. If it’s an average dps and other group members don’t hit a dps minimum it is bound to fail, be frustrating and upset people. Besides… new players are not learning organized play like that, which is detrimental later. Not everybody joins a guild that will take the time to teach group organization. That’s another source of frustration.
@@leatherDarkhorse I as a healer have had groups with 3 damage-dealers and under 25k group dps. It hurts. What also hurts is when I as the healer have to be the one to slot inner fire to prevent the group from wiping. I can't heal dps who get 1shot by a boss heavy attack they didn't block.
@@KFrey-fo2uq Yes, that's why we have the normal non-vet dungeons so new players can learn together, but then they are paired up with some cp 1000+ guy who just wants the daily crystals and all they get to do is look at dead bodies while running like mad trying to keep up with the crystal farmer.
I suggest also adding a solo random normal queue as well for the ppl who want to solo the dungeons and get the rewards. I think those three queues with the same rewards would reflect play the way you want.
It's not enough to do the basics but to also adjust to the type of group you're in. People want to go slow/do the quest slow/experience it for the first time, people want to go fast, etc etc. So the best way to do this is to divide the playstyles through dividing the queues.
@@NefasQS disagree entirely. The wait is already too long. Maybe people should adjust their mindset. It's an MMO. The decisions shouldn't be made based on what the elite want, but rather what's best for the game as a whole. Stay out of dungeons if you aren't willing to adjust to your group. If you aren't willing to wait for someone to do the quest, solo queue, or find hour own group.
@@FlashesSoccer011 Stay out of dungeons if you aren't willing to adjust to your group. If you knowingly end up in a group of strangers, don't hold those strangers to the same expectations you'd hold friends to, otherwise solo queue or find your own group. See how easy this is? Tanks/healers should be forced to slot taunt, healing skills and have specific armor weights as suggested by so many casual players or those so concerned for newer players in this comment section right? Then DPS should be forced to hit a certain number of damage or have specific skills too for queue. Oh but that's elitist right? :) So in the end, a dual queue system would solve all this stupidity until the toxic casuals have something else to complain about.
Though it doesn't apply to everyone, elite level players can fake take any random normal. If a potato queues as a fake tank and carpets, then its not right. If someone like you or me queues as a fake tank, chances are we'll be carrying the random normal group anyway.
I love the dual queue idea. I hate doing an unfamiliar dungeon in a group that wants to speed run it. Of course, I really don't trust the player base not to crap on a dual queue system by queueing up for whichever one is shorter, lol
I just want to listen to the dungeon quest’s cheap monologues one time each. Since I like TES lore, even if ESO lore is not even considered cannon. And the rest of the game is boring.
In my opinion, when you queue up as a tank, at the very least you need to be able to keep yourself alive. Whether it is an actual tank, or a DPS that knows when to block and dodge. Personally, I only fake tank on characters that 1) have inner beast and 2) Have completed vMA.
I agree with the sentiment but you certainly do not need to be anywhere near as good to clear vma as you need to be just to know when to block or dodge in a random normal! I'd say as long as you've spent about 30 hours in the game in your entire life, you should know how to block, dodge and heal! Which is more than enough for normal dungeons
@@tantrumtv4270 that is fair, I want someone that queues as a tank(fake or no) to ask themselves one question when they queue for a random; "if we get moonhunter keep, am I prepared get us through this?"
@@thefulcrum4466 haha Moonhunter isnt that bad if you know the mechanics (dodgeroll is your friend here). March of Sacrifices is WAY harder on normal especially the first boss fight so many one shot kill mechanics. Of course if all the DLC dungeons were doable with no tanks or healers required we probably wouldnt be talking about this subject.
I personally think all normal content can be completed without a real tank and healer, but not every group is ready/capable of finishing normal content without a tank or heal.
My two cents on this thing: (ik no one asked, but after what I've seen on Twitter I just have to scream this into the void lmao) Regardless of where you fall on this debate, I think it is completely unreasonable to join a random queue and hold the members of your pick-up-group to the same standards and expectations as yourself or your group of PvE friendos (whether those standards entail lore walking through the whole dungeon, or having a party full of dps). You are bound to get all kinds of different players in a random queue, from casuals to veterans - such is the nature of the current LFG feature, unfortunate as it may be. If you want to run content with a bunch of like-minded individuals and guarantee yourself a pleasant and ideal PvE experience, your best bet is to find friends that feel the same way as you and queue up with them. There are a lot of amazing social and PvE guilds out there that I know would love to welcome in all sorts of players - these kinds of guilds are a great means to find other players that want to play the same way that you (the reader, not you Nefas lmao) do, so I'd highly recommend joining a guild to those that have had unpleasant experiences with the LFG feature. Your proposed separate queue system seems like a sound alternative that could reduce the likelihood of conflict between these two camps of players. Perhaps it may even encourage more players to queue for random norms if they are more likely to get into a group full of like-minded players. I hope that it can be considered by the devs. Fake tank dialogue aside, I was blown away by how vicious the ESO Twitter community was over your meme/hot take. Seeing that kind of verbally abusive behaviour unfold on my timeline by people that I follow and whom I had presumed to be kind, funny, and respectful members of the ESO community has been such an anxiety-inducing experience :') So sorry to see that you had to deal with that.
I'd say just take away the crystal incentive for experienced players to crash the newbie dungeons. Before the crystal farming, newbies had a much better learning experience.
Heeey the Mighty Arttea! What you say I believe in to an extent but there should be some bare minimum standards to uphold or the idea to even que for a role become null and void. Then the random dungeon finder should just be a que and not a role que.
@@xgrandchampx8916 I think it would be a tricky proposition - enforcing certain (albeit bare minimum) standards (like if a tank should have a certain amount of health before they are allowed to queue, or if a dps needs to have certain skills on their bar) would take away from eso’s whole “play how you want” mantra and potentially further isolate players from giving the LFG queue a shot.
@@Arttea Yeah but the "play how you want" is already restricted by a role que. You have to be a tank, DD or healer. I wouldn't mind your suggestion but I think they should change the dungeon finder from a ROLE que to just a que. You get what you get, no expections.. Totally random soup. As long as its a role que I expect (for vet atleast) some bare minimum standards.
And then there is the time, when the the group (fresh new adventurers?) takes one hard look at you in the normal dlc dungeon and without single word of communication kick you out of the group... you lean in to your frost staff as you quietly walk to the nearest tavern to eat your forgotten lunch. Tears of confusion fill your eyes as you ponder, did they really thought I was fake?
Totally agree with your idea for 2 queues! It would also solve the issue of speedrunners vs questers! I also think a tanking / healing tutorial somewhere in the game is needed for people who are new to ESO/MMOs (like me)!
@@Discorded no need to insult my intelligence! I have never played an MMO before and didn't know what taunting even was before I found UA-cam videos that explained what tanking is and how to do it. The fact that such videos exist means that the game doesn't adequately explain these concepts to total newbies, which is a detriment to the whole community as it means content creators and guildes have to spend time explaining basic stuff. It also means that players who do not have a lot of time to research are likely to annoy other players in pugs through no fault of their own. Imo it would serve everyone better if the game fully explained the roles.
@@hoa8362 @Discorded I wound up queuing as a tank not knowing how to taunt work what a taunt even was as well. The game genuinely does not even let you know it is a thing.
I have 5 tanks that I run daily normals on as often as I can. The hardest part of tanking a normal dungeon is the lower DPS in the group, which is fine - especially when the characters are new. I throw on Dark Convergence and spam walls most of the dungeon and bring in 40% of the damage even on a full-blown tank. Then I throw Dark Convergence, Inner Fire and a S&B on my damage characters and can tank all normal content perfectly fine + contribute a ton of damage. Where I personally think fake tanking gets toxic is when they do these huge pulls with no agro/CC and then bitch when they die cause the (probably new) healer and DPS couldn't keep up. I don't quite agree that the queue should be split, but I am hopeful that people will use the new Armory station to perhaps spec an appropriate tank set up for their damage characters so they can quickly throw it on for random normals. On PC we have our addons, but I still plan to use Armory for this purpose.
I fully agree, it's a complicated issue. I main a tank and sometimes play healer. On my tank I actually go with my solo DPS setup when I do nonDLC vets, but I always have a tank gear in my eq (and in dressing room) so I can switch if a tank is needed. Because of that I see no problem if a competent player fake tanks. On my healer I actually had many problems with fake tanks. The biggest issue is that because how healers work in ESO the moment chaos erupts it becomes much harder to heal (I mostly use AoE ground heals or AoE spam heals like combat prayer). So if there is no tank and players are not competent enough keeping the group alive becomes a torture (I'm not the best healer too, so I can't really manage a chaotic fight). Because of that I usually take some tank stuff on my healer, but it's not enough for harder hitting bosses.
I just restarted playing ESO (EU/PC) acouple days ago. Quite frankly I can't imagine it being a problem in that setting because the problem is usually that some dude just runs ahead and basically solos the dungeon, doesn't really matter what role (people with Champion Points in the several hundreds). Those ruin the dungeon for anyone who doesn't just want to farm/zip through the dungeon. I can't recall more than 1 death (probably due to AFKing) in at least 50 or so dungeon runs. But the rushers are incredibly annoying in my opinion. Destiny 2 has the same problem, where you can't really get actually casual people to have a fun experience because all they can do is run through the instance past all dead mobs because they have no chance to keep up. Qeue times on EU/PC (lvl 10 plus is my only experience here either as tank or as DD) seem very short. As a tank I always get an instastart for the dungeon, as a DD it was between 1 to 5 minutes maybe. So I agree with you, there should be a casual qeue and a speedrun qeue or something along those lines. I remember when I played ESO years ago, dungeons could be at least a challenge in the beginning, but nowadays it's just breeze through in 5-10 minutes with pretty much zero challenge to it. Or you should have the option to start a solo dungeon with rewards imho (them being slightly higher, maybe 25% or so) to give the farmers another option, because they will be DD usually anyways and thereby relieve the overabundance of DDs at least a bit. Or just remove all champion point boni from normal dungeons all together and scale too good gear down a bit. I solod Fungal Grotto (normal) on my sorc at like lvl 30+ish so it's probably still super easy mode for farmers. Obviously I still remember a bit what I have to do, so I am not a complete potato, I did start both characters from lvl 1 (sorc now 40ish and DK lvl 27 or so), no twinking or anything but I am not a good player by any means. Basically these days random groups are shite anyways because people rarley say hello or good bye, you may as well just play with bots, there is no difference and frankly it takes the fun out of most MMOs. This comes from experiences way back with Guild Wars, Destiny 2 and the likes. I really wish there would be an MMO like Everquest again, those were quite different times^^ when content was actually very difficult right from the start, these days you can usually go afk when one mob is attacking you and come back a couple minutes later still alive.
Having this option for me would be useful either way, because almost every time I queue, I end up in a group that races through the dungeons so fast, I have no way to learn the dungeon or the boss mechanics. I can see there being an issue with inexperienced players joining the experienced queue, because they want to get the dungeons done faster with less chance of a wipe. To be honest I don't see why roles can't automatically be set by character stats/skills, then rather than having an experienced/inexperienced option, you could have a roles/no roles option, which I appreciate could boil down to the same thing.
Stick with it and you can join them... Rendered too inept to run the vets, you will forever haunt the normals like a middle aged man smashing kids in the chucky cheese ball pit, forever doomed to speed run past mobs you cannot hope to kill until you learn the fundimentals and hiding from you inability to advance by wrecking noobs with your overleveled "skills" while telling them to "git gud" because they "suck" at their role... or you can do like me (and 70%-80% of the playerbase) and find a game that's actually fun until zenimax learns their lesson or crashes completely.
This idea isn't new, was brought up years ago over and over, never implemented... All they did was reward fake roles with faster queue time PLUS now they get transmutes... Opposite of helping.
Also a tanks build really depends on the rest of the group. You may que up and get a tank you think sucks but he could be setup really well for a different group. I have a few builds that I love but suck for randoms. One is arkasis and drakes rush and the other is war machine and sax but if the group is not coordinated or taking advantage of your buffs then it’s completely useless. I have randoms with these setups that go super well and I have some where I get kicked because it’s a bunch of newbs who don’t see the value in it.
I have no idea why you would pug a random on an optimized / specialized build. You're basically asking to be disappointed. How many times have you proc'd Encratis' and watched the DPS stand outside of it? Not sure how you'd expect them to somehow intuit other sets that offer no visual cue that you're providing a benefit. Not sure why you'd get kicked -- unless you're failing in some fundamental tank aspect, like taunting, grouping, and staying alive.
@@theMochaFiend myself being kicked not common no, I have a time or 2 when other people start dying or a wipe from something outside my control but either way the blame always goes to the tank first. My impression of this has been mostly playing as a dd or healer and suddenly getting the notification to kick the tank because x happened when I know it wasn’t there fault. Not to toot my own horn but am always praised when I’m tanking but I was a noob once and I make mistakes as I’m only human but the dungeon que has very little patience lol
Solution. Base your daily bonus reward and any dungeon reward as follows. If you slot as a tank you must block this amount of damage or taught and keep agro this amount of mobs if you slot as healer you must heal this amount of health. Of course if you slot DPS no rules should apply to you because if you're not doing your role you're not going to make it through anyway and get any reward.
I completely understand. End game users don't even need a tank in normal dungeons. But that being said, a tank or a really good healer can benefit the group so much, I know that when I get on my tank, I only do vet random 😅 I'm so bored and twisted in normal on a tank, I'm sure healers feel the same
I switched from tank to DPS and tried my first veteran dungeon as DPS. Turns out the "tank" was also a DPS (he had 2H and Bow, not a single taunt). What's worse is that I still use sword and shield (mostly for defense bar), my tank instincts kicked in when I aggro'd the boss, but I panicked when I saw my health bar actually depleting. By the end, the dudes started blaming me for not tanking until they saw my role icon (the alleged tank had already left the group). But the worst part, the part that really dawned on me and kinda broke me, none of us died in that run. It was hard, but nobody died (I mean, yeah, it was a vanilla veteran dungeon, but still). That means that the tank role is an illusion to make tanks feel special and that the survivability of the dungeons depend on them, when it's not true, dungeons can be done without tanks. Normal dungeons don't really matter, I used to solo them as a tank, I'm sure I could solo them as DPS now, but the fact that actual veteran dungeons (vanilla ones at that, not even the DLC ones) can be done without tanking is just poor game design on ZoS. Tank is already the most worthless and useless role in PvP, and apparently it's also unnecessary in PvE (at least in vanilla). I switched to DPS to enjoy ALL of the game's content, but it just feels so wrong to me, I've always been tank in any game I can, I WANT to be tank in ESO again (been tanking since the game released on consoles, I just switched to DPS a couple of months ago), and still be useful everywhere, but ZoS seems adamant on making tanks a viable role other than meatshields in dungeons. I mean, you can't even tank in solo arenas because of DPS checks. It's PvE, it's solo, and yet, tanking is completely useless. It sucks because tanking is fun, you're the one who's supposed to direct dungeons based on how you control the bosses, you're the one who stays alive to revive your teammates, but you give up so much damage in exchange for defense, in the end it's just not worth it. In PvP, even as a tank your health will get nuked, I hunted down a player who 2-tapped me (me, having 25k physical & magical defense, 45k HP). I assumed the player would be a glass cannon considering how massive his burst damage was, and when I found him, my flashlights larping as "jabs" were barely doing any damage to his health at all (I only see things in percentage, not sure how much health the dude had, but I couldn't get him below 95%). Seriously, in PvP you give up so much damage for defense, and yet you'll get nuked, your defense doesn't matter, and don't even deal any damage (and now there are "tank punishing sets" like hrothgar's chill... seriously, a set that punishes you for trying to tank in PvP as if you didn't get punished enough for it, even with battle spirit nerfing your healing, your health regen and your damage shields) All that just to say, as much as I disliked the fake tank in my first DPS veteran dungeon, I don't blame fake tanks for their bullshit. There's just no value in that role anymore. Just switch to DPS and enjoy having access to the full game with a single character.
I feel the same way. I play just about every game as a tank and love the role, but even I've switched to a solo build now. They can play any role. I can't play arenas as a tank. No one needs me in most dungeons and even overland content is just way too slow. Every wb you need help or it costs me 30 minutes. PVP I have given up completely. In my last attempt the opponent didn't even fight back and I couldn't get the base life regeneration down.
@@saschafrank9661 nobody need tanks on normal content ,just slot taunt and spam dmg shield or heal yourself and block an attack.Its not that hard. PvP is tricky, some players can play with shields and be like immortal and deal a lot of dmg with their 2h weapons.Also idk how they are healing so fast in pvp area... About damaging,ppl are also playing nbs that can kill ppl pretty quickly 0.00001 sec,no chance to play fairly ,and in addition, other than nb class ,ppl are using proc sets that also hit hard and i think it doesnt mean if you are good player but you got carried by a set that you wearing.Its piece of shit when I hear that zos saying that kind of sets is just to help new players.Its fake.New players dont know how to use it anyway and more experienced players are using this to get easy kills.Its just not fun,but waste of your efford.
It's not that hard to use taunt on the boss and keep yourself alive. For the other parts of the dungeons, well, just be a simple DD and beat the crap out of the mobs. That's what I do when fake tanking. I think if you have no taunt ability on your bars, you shouldn't even be able to pick the tank role in the first place.
You can't force people to play a certain way, what they can do is to change the incentives to make it less attractive to run normal non-vet dungeons for experienced players. There is otherwise always the "vote to kick" option if someone is really stepping too far from his/her role .
Undaunted range taunt also buffs dps, so its beneficial for dd farming crystals as well. It happened to me on several occasions when people said in chat "finally real tank" and after we finished dungeon they realized that my hp is kinda low xD Its really easy to tank normal dungeons, even dlc ones, especially after you farmed vet maelstorm arena and vet trials.
When I fake tank as a ranged dps, other players don’t even take noticeable damage because the normal instance is so weak, so I can even fake heal too whilst fake tanking and still carry with dps. 🤷🏼 Game’s got balance issues
As somebody who does fake tank quite a lot, as the transmute farm never stops unfortunately... Saying this does not benefit me, but an even simpler solution to what Nefas is suggesting, and one I believe there devs are more likely to take (though I would prefer to multi-queue solution) is that the rewards in terms of XP and transmutes are halved for normals, and as they are for vets. If they did that then people would be more likely to want to do the vet version as it wouldn't usually end on overly too much time, at least not more time than doing 2 regular dungeons usually! It also caps the grind on normal to half of a vet grind... and it would stop the farmers from fake tanking as much as it's really not much of an option with randoms in vet content as you normally just won't get it completed if it happens to be a harder dungeon or dlc dungeon
All the Devs need to do is change Normal dungeons so you dont NEED the holy trinity (DPS, Healer and Tank), if you want to go through on 4 DPS with Normal you should be able to, remember play how you want thats what the Devs are moving towards. If you want Veteran rewards thou (like the skins etc) then you need to coordinate a actual proper group.
@@newworldforward1842 I believe people are complaining because the tank is actually a DPS because you currently still need to select the role you wish to play. The game use to let you select 4 dps roles but they removed that years ago.
@@aussie-elders This is what you said: "you dont NEED the holy trinity (DPS, Healer and Tank), if you want to go through on 4 DPS with Normal you should be able to, remember play how you want"
I personally agree with you I don't promote it personally after level 40s because the harder dungeons after that point really need a tank but the early dungeons on normal don't really need it
until around 400cp i use to believe that dungeons consist of 3 damage dealer and 1 support. then one day i was in a group doing normal sunspire where i see on guy taking all the so much damage from dragons and not dying from it like real hero of the group.
Great points. I group with guildies all the time for random normal dungeons, and often while we rotate through our toons, we'll quickly get to a point where we don't have any more tanks to rotate through, but we all also have CP160+ (and typically CP1000+) toons that we can burn through pretty much any random normal w/o the need of a dedicated healer or tank. Now when we go vet hard mode pledges, we grab a dedicated tank, healer and 2 DPS. And sometimes we've got two or three really good DPS, and we may fake tank in that case, even with getting someone that underperforms, we can carry the third.
Normal dungeons? You have no idea how many clowns try to fake tank in Vet DLC dungeons. I literally have to requeue Vet dungeons 10 times before i can find a actual tank.
In my opinion the root cause behind many issues in ESO, including fake roles and dungeon finder being a miserable experience in general, is that ESO does not teach players how to play the game. The tutorials are lackluster and the early and mid game provides no challenge to encourage learning. The majoritiy of players reach the endgame without even understanding basic game mechanics. Players need to extensively study external sources to actually progress, something that many are, understandably, not willing to do. I think if ESO would provide a more steady learning curve for players, the community would be far less toxic, the skillgap would be more reasonable without ruining the game for top end players and in terms of the fake role problem, players would actually be competent enough to understand and fulfill their roles and there might even be more players interested in playing support roles.
I've played a bit of ffxiv and one thing I was SUPER impressed by was the role tutorial they give you before you can go in a dungeon for the first time. Putting something like that in the game, maybe thru the Undaunted, would be huge I think
Doesnt change the fact that people dont play healers or tanks.I have made both and most of the time if im not dding,dps is mediocre which ruins the experience of healing/tanking.
I just think if you will que up as a tank you might as well slot a taunt to not ruin it for the people who don't want to tank. it's one skill and it will make both your run and the run of others with you go a lot smoother. So many times people que as tank without inner fire and have the boss aggro on a lvl 15 dps that runs with their head cut off. Just slot a taunt and you will have both your fake tanking and the dungeon experience boss will stand still ect. its such an easy solution idk why its not more wide-spread
I feel that since people are already avoiding long queue times by fake tanking, they'll also hop onto whichever queue is perceived faster if we added two queue types -- spoiling the experience of anyone who is actually there for that queue type by wanting the other kind of run. If they could be polite about it, they wouldn't be fake tanking in a way that's obvious. (IMO I don't care about fake tanks as long as they slot a taunt and don't die too much, I can handle trash on random normals so don't need any frills from my tanks.) I wish I could figure out a way to make tanking for randoms more appealing; I find tanking for randoms excruciating on a whole extra level from healing or DPS, whether they're rushing ahead and pulling and dying, or doing less damage than I am on my non-fake tank. I've solved this problem by only ever tanking for friends and guildies, which is great for me but doesn't help the "too many fake tanks" problem. Or since there's already achievements that track soaking, dealing, and healing damage, maybe there could be a "role check" where if you behave according to your role, fairly modestly to encourage newbies, you get extra goodies. That way a tank could get extra goodies for soaking damage, a healer for healing a certain amount, and a DPS for dealing a certain amount of damage. It'd certainly encourage real tanking if you got extra crystals for taunting each boss and blocking it at least once or twice.
Trainee tank here My most common experience of dungeon queues is that I join a group, I quickly pick up the quest and turn around to find the other 3 have run off and I spend the rest of the time trying to catch up to them
Don't! Just hang back and walk slowly through the dungeon. Let them run and die all they want. It's part of L2P that tanks go first. If they don't know this the learning is on them, not on you.
@@newworldforward1842 - Yeah, but if it's a normal dungeon, they'll probably finish the dungeon while you're still hanging back, and you'll have to face the realisation of the fact that... you're just not that important. 😂
I'll confess that I fake tank at times. However, and this is key, I don't do it unless I'm on a fairly durable character I can slot a taunt on or I'm entering the que with a lowbie. Essentially, my personal rule is don't sign up for a role I can't perform. I don't mind when I have a fake tank in my party so long as they're either steamrolling the place by themselves or they at least tanky enough to get the job done and bother to taunt the big stuff.
This type video IS kinda needed. I teach new players often and they try to do what the more vet players do or deal with them doing it (fake tanking is an example). 3 skyshards aren't hard to get and everyone needs the undaunted tree so just get the range taunt and help the newer players learn easier to stop toxicity. Newer player die more often and sometimes farm to about 1k cp but have very little in content expeariance. Fake tanking can lead to toxicity on all sides not just from the tank. Just being a little considerate will help is all.
First MMO where the “endgame” is considered the difficulty setting, not the actual group content itself. No requirements for “Trials,” way to ruin the experience of a first impression of a raid. Faceroll until u wanna actually attempt tactics… U simply can’t learn mechs for Vet in Normal where all tacts are ignored.
All you need for tanking normal dungeons is a decent health pool and access to a shield. If you can contribute damage then great. Also you need to be able to taunt, either with gear or abilities. You could use tormenter with knights errant until you can farm better gear
Yeah, for normal dungeons it literally takes nothing more than heavy armor, a decent health pool, sword and shield, and the pierce armour taunt. If somebody provides that when I’m on a DD, I’ll never complain. I don’t need a boost to my DPS in a normal dungeon.
I have I think 5 toons right now setup for tanking. All 5 have heavy armour a sword and shield and a taunt. There's no normal dungeons so far I can't tank. None of the 5 have cp or stats altered for tanking, quite often I still pull more dps than the rest of the group while maintaining taunt. Oh and I only have mag toons.
I tried to do a tank build, but most of the dungeon groups I joined didn't respect my role and just did whatever they wanted, leaving me taunting a boss for absolutely no reason. Kind of frustrating so I abandoned that character for my other DPS builds. I prefer solo play anyway, but I thought it would be fun to run with some groups as a tank. Nope.
have accidently queued tank or healer a few times, forgot to swap back after running with friends. but never queue as tank or healer on purpose for randoms.
Ill be honest, I used to fake tank. The qeue times for DPS are insane. But one day, it happened to me, I qeued as a DPS like I was and I had a fake tank. In a difficult DLC dungeon. I dont remember which one. It was very difficult for me as I was only like cp 200 at the time and because we had a fake tank for some reason a lot of aggro went to me despite not having any taunts. So I kept dying. We as a group just gave up after 90 minutes. The days that followed I made a legit tank and a legit healer. Spend a lot of resources on both and now I only qeue as a tank on my tank. One of the best accomplishments I have on my tank is Veteran Scalecaller Peak. I understand that some of you are probably like reeeeee easy. But to this day, that is one of the best achievements I got on my tank and I am damned proud of it. Mainly because I rarely do Vet dlc dungeons since vsp I only did like 5 more vet dlc dungeons. vsp was like 2 years ago.
Banished cell 2 is probably the only random on vet where I consider dropping out just by looking at the levels of the dps. Too many frustrating experiences with 9 daedroth swarming around my tank!
Makes a lot of sense to add queues - it’s basically the same problem they’re trying to solve with multiple Cyrodiil instances. Give folks different rule sets to self-select into. I bet with farmers in a fast queue, that things would go better for slow-queue folks too.
The good point to be had to explain fake tanking ques is simply put theres not enough actual tanks queing in the first place for random normals. They're all on vet ques. How does ZOS address the issue? They have and it was with the addition of companions for you to go by yourself with the companion being tank spec into those dungeons. Therefore the kick option is there for group as well and a companion can then be summoned for tank of you kick a fake tank. This is all points being made to ignore the fact the people can talk to one another so the content can be done with a fake tank having the means to do it or the other 3 doing what needs to be done for a fake tank.
Late to the discussion here but... I've been thinking about the thing with multiple queues as well. The only issue with that is still for us who like to have a tank role and stack mobs so dps' can do more effective damage. I like organizing stuff, I think that's one of the main reasons I like tanking. But I also love to grind for xp. I don't want neither of them being taken away because of a queue system where nr. 1 is "go slow" or nr 2 is "go with 3 dps that thinks killing every mob one by one is more effective than stacking them on the boss"... I mean, it's an MMO, I just wish we could play it as a team whenever people find themselves in a team and not just go their own thing in each corner of the map, wether it's a dungeon or a bg
*Sadly, ESO is designed to be a shallow experience in cooperation.* It is Literally tailored to suit individuals who want to take shortcuts all the way through the entire game, and still be viable for end-game content with minimal effort. Who buy their mounts and copy their character builds, and see nothing flawed in their own player development with that. Never quest, and think TES lore is for geeks. Yet, these are disproportionately the players who wanna raid end-game trials and pvp in Cyrodiil. - - - EXP used to be a Byproduct of your Progress… Now, it is Nothing but an Inflated TimeLock to incentivise people to actually play their otherwise bland and rewardless content. Only for the power boost of course.
heya Nefas i feel you truly touched on the issue around this fake tanking issue. i myself Main the role as tank and have a few low dps toons that basically just farm stuff for my tanks. When i queue as dps and get a fake tank and notice it i just slot a taunt and trust in my skill level as a tank main to get it done. Feels bad to hear the hate you get just for saying whats on your mind just because you create content. say your say brother, your words hit truth on the matters. much love and respect for your vids and time on these matters
I fake tank and I legit tank. When I fake tank I put on taunt and resistance skills. 9 times out of 10 not only do I taunt and hold the boss and adds I do most of the group healing and DPS. When I legit tank about 4 times out of 10 I have to suffer thru a group that cannot do normal base dungeons. It ends up being a frustrating grind.
One thing that would help is to make the rewards based on the role you select somehow. Idk how well it would work but it's something ZoS should consider.
I fake tanked once (I did not understand what tanks actually did at the time), the teammates were not enthusiastic about it but were accommodating so long as we did not get wiped repeatedly. We Steamrolled and finished very quickly (the healer was mvp), they wanted to go again same setup but because of their kindness I declined because I felt bad for doing it. When I played healer (not fake this time) I would get fake tanks all the time, I would calm people down saying "lets try it first before leaving." It would put a lot of extra strain on me having to kite around my teammates very actively to get enemies off me and I would be reviving people mid combat a fair amount at times. Even then we would complete the dungeons in the expected amount of time and we rarely fully wiped (usually when I died), and I had a fun and engaging time. However when I got a real tank things were a breeze, even with bad tanks, and people genuinely were very kind and accommodating to even the worst tanks often giving a share of their loot to the tank when it seemed like they were getting depressed. That being said the most interesting dungeon I was a part of was one with 2 fake DPS, we wound up with 3 healers and one tank..... No one could die..... ever.
just have a healer character. It's so ez to heal I just half ass pay attention while watching a show on the other monitor while the monkeys do all the work for me
It used to bother me in regular dungeons, but there is so much DPS in the game now that it really only comes up every so often in DLC dungeons. Some bosses really are a pain in the ass when you don't have someone who can taunt and take a hit. Other than that, I am not bothered by it.
100% the game should be doing this (also one for queue no healer option or both no tank no healer)! Tera did something similar many years ago to address long queues waiting for tanks/heals. Yes all these normal dungeons can by run by just dps if they're experienced but there are new and inexperienced players just learning and may need stronger support roles there. When they land in a dungeon not spec'd to self heal or expecting a tank to be holding the boss it can be a rude surprise- and yes- the normal content could be failed by these newer player teams. When you queue in the current system you are expecting a tank with some aggro skills / tankiness /buffs debuffs, and a healer to be there to top of your health/buff you/ debuff bosses. At a minimum if you're going to jump the queue by changing your role to tank you should at least have aggro skills and the ability to avoid the mechanics or take a couple boss hits without dying. At this time in the current system I would say it's best to join guilds and put together your own team for all dps or no tank or no heal runs.
It would be cool if the que knew the armor and skills you have in place and rank your build, in the form of tank/dps/healer, and then have that under the option your choosing so others automatically know what your build will be like.
Still wont change the fact that people dont play tanks.Will be the same thing and you will still have to fake tank as to not waste 1 hour of your day waiting on a daily random dungeon queue.
Tanking regs and most vets can be super fun dudes. Templar + Tormentors + any selfish set that heals u (like crimson) + all stam enchants and bam. Slot dps abilities and gogogo! Fun af!
Thx for the vid. It brought me to the idea that i will slot a taunt next time and do real tanking. Im a pvp player and tanky anyway and i do pve only if i have too but from time to time i need to farm stuff and thx to this vid it will be faster and easier next time.
Having more options would help, but I don't think solve the problem entirely when the ego gets in the way. I like the option of different paths and even a solo path, in combination with some basic minimum specs the game could recognize are necessary for either tanking or healing.
I won't cue up as a fake tank or a fake healer as my primary stats are DPS but my backbar on my nightblade is running a resto staff with healing skills just in case my group runs into issues I can switch my roll in a boss fight.
2 Q'es? Why not 25? What Would stop that 'bad' speedrunners or 'faketanks' from queuing to your snowflakes queue? Nothing I constantly queuing at my DPS characters as tank to any Normal dungeon. And would always do that. Why? To lower queue time obviously. I know perfectly all mechs, my DPS is BIG, if need I can slot Undaunted's taunt skill, I tank anything without even moving and external healing. I didn't understand why not every experienced DPS player doing the same? Do they love to sit in queue to NORMAL for 30+ min? Vets are different story. Usually I'm not faketanking there, but pretty sure I would be able to tank the same as good as in Normal for any vanilla dungeon (coz they are easy AF) DLC dungeons are way harder, so if I meet a 'tank' here who: can't keep aggro, can't grab all monsters to same spot for aoe, can't survive properly - then I just starting votekick. And no matter who is he: faketank Sorc with Lightning staff or Dk in heavy with SnB. If you are trash - you are going to the FO. AND! I treat in the same way others: If healer don't heal and dont support - he should be kicked. If DPSers don' output at least 25k DPS each - then they should go to Normals and gather gear, but don't be playing burden role in vets. And if someone wanna 'learn' dungeon, check every corner and open every urn, then they should gather in group of 4 and live in the dungeon, but they just has no right to expect that from some 1k+ guy who just joined to complete daily as fast as possible.
This whole issue is not only restricted to ESO, other similar mmo majority players run as dps, thus queue time becomes very long for them, but the opposite happens for tanks and healers since their numbers are so low compared to dps, thus their queue time is fast, sometimes really fast. Thus many dps find it more ez to queue under a different role to decrease their queue
Well I main tank for a while and if i run pug, the biggest issue I had, was people not pushing dps for random (where me as fulltank makes up to 30-40% groupdmg). That is why now, I am only running faketank if i queue up for randoms. Up until now, I have yet to experience someone calling me names. I think as long as you do the tank job as dps, people wont bother. Most of the time I ask group if someone has still quest so that I'm playing slow or even explaining newbies the mechanics. I think all the hate regarding fake tanks comes from a bad place, where inexperience players queue as faketank hoping for a carry. Not slotting taunt or whatsoever, is just selfish. Even if a faketank push dps hard and are able to solo the dungeon, if you dont do tank job, other wont have a pleasent playing experience.
Yeah I fake tank as a Rdps Warden Archer build, never got cussed out except perhaps once but the guy shut up when he realised I was still carrying everyone absolutely and he could barely even get off any dps on mobs before I had already killed them all without hardly stopping running.
If a fake tank doesn't have a taunt just vote them out. I don't think it's that bad if you know what dungeon you are going into and something like a base game normal dungeon but you probably shouldn't random queue as a fake tank. Or best of all just form your own group without a tank vs using the group finder and lying about your role.
Last night I was queueing to normal random as a fake healer (yeah I know but at least I had some heals for group due to being templar, sorc and warden) and all the times we had fake tanks and its wasn't an issue at all. Only once got into a bit of a trouble in the cauldron having lvl 40 and CP 120 in the group. So if you have some experience and doing normals fake tanking is not an issue but for new players it is a very bad experience that may turn them away from group content or even game
In all honesty I don’t see this issue ever going away. As long as every class has the potential to fulfill every role you’re left at the mercy of player integrity and player intention when queuing up. If the game was designed like FFXIV where one class literally can literally only do one role we wouldn’t have this issue. Fake tanks and fake healers are simply the price we have to pay for the combat and build diversity relative to games that have role locked jobs like FF.
Havent played in a while but I farmed the gearset from Selene enough to know that you can solo that **** With a taunt on your bar you can usually get them to stay quiet
I've seen fake tanking in vet dungeons (though far rare). When I see it in normal, it's persons using a two-handed weapon without a single taunt skill in use. When I ask how they are taking, I've heard everything from "I'm a meat shield" to "oh, I just sold my sword and board." My main issue with fake tanking is when as a full-spec healer or even as DPS, I get focused on so much that I cannot heal or DPS (if playing dps)... then it becomes aggravating beyond compare. My feeling is that if I'm going to q correctly and do my best (and I'm not taking item sets, skill lines, etc... I'm talking the role itself -- i.e. if dps, I hope my % of damage per cmx is 33% or higher of the group damage and as healer that I can keep everyone alive even if I cannot get out the single one or two combat skills I have on my bars. BTW, another frustration that happens is fake healers (especially in vet) where the "healer" isn't using a restoration staff and while they may have heal skills slotted, they are just trying to dps with the dps people (I had that happen today for a vet pledge). I agree the solution should come from the vendor. I know I'm doing RND for the 10 transmute crystals (and 1 skill point if the quest was not done prior). For vets, typically they are for pledges (but not random).
@@Discorded Everyone else who signs up to do their role. Just imagine you go to work and you and all but one of your coworkers do their job, but there's one who never does their job... and that impacts everyone else. Socialism at work.
Queue times for a DD on console can take up to 2 hours sometimes. But there is not just fake tanking there are fake healers too. I personally hate when players pug as the wrong role. Playing with your guild mates or friends, do whatever. But if you’re going to pug, be the role you’re built for. Even on normal dungeons. I think it teaches newer players that it’s OK to do this and when they get to vet content they’ll already be accustomed to this bad habit and then will complain and rage about why they got kicked from the vet dungeon.
…People wanna play competitive MMORPG group-difficulty content without even knowing how a basic dungeon group functions… Tell um try questing first. …And then WE get told that we must have our game changed to adjust for these types of people who don’t even try to learn…
I agree that players should learn the basics first but people these days are spoiled and used to things just being handed to them. They expect to come in game and be able to play at the same skill level as veteran players. Expect to have stuff just given to them and when they don’t get it they either create scams like asking for “gold to respec” or soul gems they can flip in a trader or sell to a merchant or they find the forums and rage there. But I also think many players who come into dungeons want to learn them proper and when others skip enemies, skip mechanics or queue as the wrong role it teaches them bad habits. As for the games rating, I wish there was a way devs and platforms could determine a players age to uphold this law but they can’t. So we are stuck with some 8yr olds yolo playstyle while they type racial slurs in text chat and use bow LA’s from out of range shooting at their shadows.
In some of the harder vet dungeons fake tanking doesn't always work, and in trials it will never really work. In the normal dungeons of ESO, espeically the solo-able ones can be fake tanked with a 3rd good dps. I've never fake tanked, but I do see it happen, it is encouraged in normal dungeons as it will just get done faster.
The most player that I know with proper tank toons don't like to play with pug normal groups. Reason are as follows: 1. Pug players alot of the time start the add pull or boss fight before the tank is there and then the tank would have to alot of effort to get aggro back. 2. Sometimes tank player themselves pull more dps then the dps in the pug group 3.Pug group some times don't even bothering to learn the normal dungeon mechanics. 4.Fake healer /bad healer make tanking harder then it needs to be. 5. Playing on vet is more enjoyable for tanks. When build properly, tanks some time can just face tank most normal dungeon boss just with puncture and blocking. 5.Most vet player bother to learn mechanics. So less painful 6. Lastly when in normal dungeon everything comes a dps rush.So enjoyment is minimal as a tank. I think these reasons also contribute to the small tank population in dungeon finder. Which in turn make fake tanking problem worst as number of proper tank aren't even in the public pool to being with.
The inability to tank is arguably the least important factor - it's often being done by someone who can be toxic and has no regard for anyone else in the dungeon. I never had to deal with it until I made alt characters because my main is a tank. It creates a bad experience for a lot of new players but it's the kind of behavioural issue that ZOS can only hope to influence by incentivizing different behaviour. Normal dungeons shouldn't be the best and easiest transmute farm and players should have better ways to earn them.
This nailed it. If you got taunt np for me. I do most fake tank rule in normal and I deal more damage than the DD. Even in some instances when I do DD it's more toxic they ask you what your waiting and what parse are you doing. Well dead DD is not goi5 to help. Parse is unrelevant u are killing a moving target. People tend to force there idea to your build and that is bs
Main healer here that just started tanking. I feel like all normal dungeons and even some of the non-dlc dungeons can be fake tanked IF the fake tank has a spot and at least some way of knowledge about the dungeon. This said, I most of the time have dds as fake tanks that have underwhelming dps, no spot and usually start rushing several groups of mobs at once, and this can turn out to be very stressful and not a fun experience for me. So if you must fake tank because your dd queue takes >30 minutes (those can be real numbers on EU) - please take a group at a time, use your spot and stay close to your healer ... I will thank you for that by keeping you alive
I've fake tanked quite a bit with friends but I do also have 5 tanks anyway. Just the other day I was with some friends and we random queued into Unhallowed Grave but 2 of the group had never done it and one of them hadn't hit 50 on either of their characters. I know my stam sorc can fake the dungeons Maj and Glirrion give you but to be safe I switched to an actual tank to be safe but that cost me and the other person who switched to an actual healer 10 transmute crystals. (Next time I won't fake if the lowest member of the group is 45 or above!)
By the way, if I may suggest to the developers: Get rid of random daily dungeons. That's right. Make the daily Undaunted dungeons reward transmutes instead. Divvy up the extra xp amongst them, so that you're earning keys and transmute stones.
Or random vet only gives 10 transmute no one is stupid enough to fake tank rendom vets. And keeps the higher level players away from lower levels so they can also enjoy the game.
Personally, I only use my dps/tnk on normal non-dlc (and a small handful of DLC and vet dungeons I know I can easily handle). This means I never run randoms on that toon, if I want to run a random I grab a real tank. Besides I have so many transmute stones they are an annoyance to have to always delete them since they are taking up almost half my inv on most of my toons (only keeping purple and golds). I always have a Taunt, I know how to properly tank such as turning boss away from group, dodging/blocking, activating Synergies, etc... I have so many heals coming back from my damage and other healz (since I am Stamplar and running the Briarheart set, using Barrier and rend as my ult's, using repentance, Restoring focus, and Breathe of life) that I don't need to rely on a healer almost at all, etc... I get so much healing coming back I can usually sustain through most situations as long as I do not get hit over 27K hp (my max health). Not to mention I usually do more dps than the other 2 dps combined (in nearly every run). In other words, if I cannot do the job properly then I don't do it at all. That should be the motto of every fake tank. If you fake tank, please respect your group and make sure not to screw them over.
I have been pretty critical about fake tanks . . . until now. Mostly because I didn't think about the implications. I guess I'd rather have much shorter queues with a fake tank, than sit around for 30 min waiting for a tank. Maybe have a Random Normal *No-Comp* queue and a Random Normal *Proper-Comp* queue.
If the que finder actually worked as intended. People would probably que as respective roles. But no one wants to wait 30+mins or swap to a tank or healer. When they got on what ever dps even if they don't hit hard. Also I think alot of the fake roles had at least done the quest once or so. A que for newer /casual players an one for speed runners would be nice
While the Armory kinda fixes it one of the reasons I rarely played my tank (even after fully gearing and training with him) was the fact that overland content was pretty horrible (and before the Armory it was easier to just mildly re spec a healer into a semi Magicka DPS). In short I didn't like the fact that his only use was mainly group content.
epic level trolling fake tanking during this video (PS you definitely bring up good points on the need to fix structural issues rather than blaming players)
Hey gamer! Long time GAMER, first time ESO player, started around 2 months ago. HATED #rpg since childhood, #ESO has grabbed me by the munduses and I'm LOVING EVERY MINUTE. As with All communities there HAS to be an elite, smarmy,snarky crowd. YOU are the day one player's,..... Not all but every youtuber who identifies,..... Tells it in the way they speak,. It plain to see if you can't handle a normal dungeon, with the boss smacking the shit out of all four player's,... Then your shit. But as a new player I understand, THIS IS THE ONLY RECOGNITION YOU WILL EARN IN YOUR LIFE. Have at it, your a god bro,.. everyone wants to be you. The game is still good, as a new or smarmy player. Good shit.
They just need to allow us to trade dungeon and non-perfected trial set pieces. Thus we would be able to get what we want without farming transmute crystals.
Fake tanks are fine in random normal dungeons IF it happens to be a base game dungeon. However, with random dungeons, u never know what dungeon you'll be getting into. And some of the DLC dungeons actually require a real tank cuz of mechanics and/or the damage output by mobs and (mini) bosses. Also. usually the fake tanks don't even equip a taunt at all and when getting at a boss, they just stand there waiting until someone else initiates the fight. It's rather frustrating, because a damage dealer often can't put out damage he/she normally does, cuz you are busy kiting the boss around. If a boss gets kited, you have to run after it if you are a melee dps. I can only use 1 hand to play this game, because of a physical handicap on my left arm (it's paralyzed), so you can imagine, that if I'm on my Stamblade, most of my damage comes from melee attacks, and that's gonna be hard if the boss can't stay in one place for most of the times. As stated, I don't mind it that much in base game normal dungeons, but DLC is a whole different ballgame, and thus I DO mind the fake tanks, especially if they don't have a taunt, and their dps is not worth noticing.
I’ve recently returned back to ESO after 2 years. I just happened upon your video and damn does this explain so much! Not gonna lie, a few player definitely got a "fucking heal/take aggro bruh" from me in the chat. Buuuuuuut you do make a point. I always said that system needed to change. 2 years ago I mained healer and tank because the queue for dps took awhile (playing on console) but now I find myself getting queued faster being a dps than support. I get why is happening but I’m very indifferent about how this makes me feel. I’m trying to play thru the new content so I’m not familiar with the new dungeons added in the last couple of years. Not having a proper tank or healer is just fucking annoying and now I think I might have to substitute certain abilities just to be able to survive. On the other hand, the queue is straight trash and the player had to find a way to work around a poor system. Hopefully this changes in the future.
Omgosh yes!! This is such a heavy problem that I switched from 85k MagSorc DPS to a Sword & Board DK tank. I LOVE IT! If anybody ever needs a real dedicated immortal/taunt tank let me know!! (Rajah Iry Hor)
There are three big problems that stand out to me: 1). Lack of taunt 2). A minority of fake tanks seem to have good DPS 3). In vet many of them just can't tank the hits meant for real tanks. A lot of them don't seem to know basics, too. I had a fake tank in a four man PUG tell me they didn't need our healer cos they had Pale Order. Well, good luck with your 4% heals, buddy.
Actually tank doesn't need a healer. Except for resources but even that if fight is long. Healer is to buff dps and cover their a$$es if they screw up with aoes and mechanics. The only heal that would matter for tank is blood fountain (that 65% can save tank if he screws up) but normally tank doesn't need even that when he is experienced enough.
@@skipperg4436 you seem to be getting “healers” mixed up with just “templars.” … you’re too conditioned for meta builds. That’s not how a healthy MMO economy runs. “Healers are just there to buff dps and cover dps mistakes in aoe…” You obviously convinced yourself of that in chat with another meta-sheep.
My solution... Que as tank, gain a buff. All attacks taunt. Reduce damage taken by 50%. Reduced self healing by 50%. Que as dps, gain a buff. Increase damage done. Self healing Reduced by 50%. Que as healer. Damage output Reduced by 60%. Healing output increased by 50%. Damage taken increased by 50%.
imo Deltia already had a better idea. Separate dungeons into separate tiers. We need to admit that not all dungeons are equal. Base Game dungeons are vastly easier than DLC Dungeons. Split them into separate tiers, each tier with its own daily. The higher the tier, the higher the reward. This provides clear direction of progression to the player base and provides adequate incentive to participate. Players drop dlc dungeons because they don’t feel adequately compensated for the time they spent playing it. But if the harder dungeon dailies had more reward then people would be more inclined to play them AND they would be better prepared for their role in the higher tiers
I used to love tanking. In a way I still do ,but the least fun thing about playing a tank for me. Was other players.
I agree completely because I believe what you're saying is you dislike the dps who want to strut their stuff and go running ahead of you, pulling all the agro then complaining when they die!
So true! The amount if hate you get sometimes is just insane!
@@davidhurcombe6505 Yeah, then you get stuff like "Shit tank!! Fake tank!! Tank is useless!!" etc... If they just let the tank do his job it would be so much easier for everyone.
I had to actually put ring of wild hunt with swift trait to make sure that no dps out runs me. And even after that it's painful to watch dds to try to light attack a boss to death, cannot follow mechanics and cannot interrupt.
I still love tanking... because I learn the mechanics and never go into group chat. I pug vet hm pledges everyday. I drag nit-wits to completion in perfect silence or while joking with buddies in party chat.
For me the key is to just show some basic consideration for the team you're about to join in the queue. You don't need to be a meta specced tank/heal/dps for a random normal but some basics are nice. 1. Queue as a DPS? Try to do some actual damage (as a tank main I die a little inside when I realise my random normal is going to take 3 times as long because the combined group dps of the 1000+ CP players is under 30k. 2. If you queue as a tank, slot a taunt and hold the bosses still. 3. If you queue as a healer, slot some sort of heal and maybe an orb.
The biggest problem isn't fake tanking, it's just lack of consideration for other players.
For real. Normal dgs are so easy but not if the tank is a scrub. If your gonna take tank be able to solo the normal content at least.
You are 100% correct
Its players lack of consideration. Being so self involved that nothing but what you want matters and it's infuriating. I miss the old days of eso.
@47IQ first of all, I assume you are trolling because I have never needed or will ever need a carry in eso. If anything it's usually quite the opposite..difference is I dont mind and I'm not self absorbed. You obviously proved my point..not that you needed to.
Normal bosses barely even tickle clothies, let alone require a dedicated healer.
In normal non-dlc dungeons I don't really care if there is a fake tank, yet in some dlc dungeons even on normal I would definitely prefer to have a dedicated tank for sure!
i tanked everything on dps on normal. the only times its close to an issue is when 2 dps are very new and doing little to no dps, when this happens im glad im on a dps so the dungeon gets done regardless of whos in the group.
I think fake tanking on any dlc dungeon is possible aswell,just 1 person need to slot taunt and get some powerful dots and use dmg shield or even do block.
@@ewapiksrandeb3966 tanked some dlc dungeon as healer, dodge roll the heavy attacks helps for the one shots
@@monalisa-bs4zs If you "tanked" you were obviously a TANK!!! Tanks can do damage as well. I tank all non-DLC vet dungeons on dps gear, but I'm no less of a tank because I also do damage. I use sword and shield, pierce armor, inner beast etc, so the group won't be lacking any of the usual tank skills, buffs and debuffs.
@@newworldforward1842 Tank with 20k health doing 40k dps. Only way those toons are tanks is coz they have taunt slotted.
Also remove DLC dungeons from random queues. People just leave if they get a DLC one.
Great idea.
Agreed!
Agreed
I notice that, why do they leave?
@@jonathansoko1085 Most people do it for quick XP to level skills or for transmutes. If you're in a random group it can take ages to complete even on normal or some dungeons are just inherently long like Fang Lair or Unhallowed Grave.
If getting transmutes were easier, I assure you lots of people wouldnt need to fake tank. Transmutes is probably the most valuable currency in game cause there's a limited amount you can really get in one day. No matter what your cup of tea is in eso, you need transmutes to get proper traits on gear, or trait change whenever the game changes. If possible, I'd probably never touch a dungeon ever if I didn't need transmutes to change my gear or reconstruct gear every few patches
I disagree with this, transmutes although useful are only useful for trait changing which you don’t need to do much unless you are using lots of different sets on different characters. Personally I find myself with to many crystals a lot of the time.
@@jordanparis964 Name a currency that is technically more valuable, i will wait. Just because YOU dont utilize them as often doesnt make this not so. If you are a meta player, they are a must. Or even if you just care about your sets, they are incredibly valuable
@@jordanparis964 That's because you're a noob with a few bad builds struggling to finish a normal dungeon. Any experienced player will have 10+ builds to manage for each character and situation.
Transmutes are a scapegoat. Dps have always and will always queue as support for the insta queue. I’ve been playing long enough to remember when you could queue as tank healer and dps and just float into any available group. In those days transmutation wasn’t even a thing and the game was still rife with fake healers and tanks in random vet and normal. People are just lazy and love to cut the line to get the rewards.
@@ManoHSM actually most high end pver/pvper need those huge transmutes for different toons and occasions... i have 18toons which 8pve active 6 pvp active i need farm lots of transmutes for coming patches constantly
Instead of having T, H, D, D like we have today, have a set of 4 drop downs with roles in the Dungeon Finder screen. Choose the roles that you want in your group. Want a 4 DD group? Great. Change the dropdowns to those roles (radio buttons would be easier, but they don't exist in the eso interface). For anyone in your party already, the options would be greyed out and pre-filled, so you'd only be able to change the dropdown for the "missing" party member(s).
So let's say you have 3 people in your party who are self-assigned DD roles, and you're looking for a tank. You'd change the "open slot" dropdown to tank. Then, when you queue, you'd only match with a tank who was ALSO looking for T, D, D, D setup, because that's how they set their dropdowns on their end.
That way, no one is surprised at who shows up, no one has to fake tank. Folks could get the kind of party they want because they selected it. Newer players would have some assurance that they're going to have a legit healer and tank in their party, and more ambitious players can throw caution to the wind, and no one wonders who'd going to get in party with them.
Does not solve the "5k DPS" problem, but that's a tragedy for another day.
The toxic casuals would then bitch about their q times.
Thus sounds nice on paper, but will just create a multitude of queues, insted if one long queue we'll have the issue battleground queue had, it was sitting everyone who queue'd into way more wait lines than needed
There is TOTALLY an interest in this, too. A fairly new guild on PC EU called 'Story Mode' founded itself entirely on giving newbies and others people to run dungeons slowly with and its population exploded *fast*.
100% agreed, I hate catching up with the content. It's especially egregious when it comes to trials which are always a major part of expansion's storyline (or even the overarching one like it was with Vvardenfell and Summerset). It's even worse when you're like a 1k CP returning player trying to catch up and everybody expects you to major expedition sprint from boss to boss ignoring adds
I'd join the guild if I wasn't at cap X)
Yea my guild does "smell the roses" runs of group content so participants can get through the content at their own pace while enjoying the story.
Nefas 100% on point here. We all differ in our experience of fake tanking and ultimately none of our experiences are the issue.
The problem is zos making this a player problem instead of adding a tiny bit more functionality to the game.
"Toxic" is when you've joined a dungeon queue as a dps, and you're clearly playing as a dps in the group, and someone votes to kick you for being a "fake tank." LoL, not sure how they arrive at that conclusion, but it's happened to me a couple of times.
True. Any WoW players from a few years ago will know that Dps-Tanking was something you would only ever see elite players do. And you’d be glad for the boost! … That is because THE DIFFICULTY OF NORMAL - WAS ACTUALLY STILL FAIRLY CHALLENGING! And not a complete and utter pathetic PG-rated faceroll like ESO’s “Normal.”
@@supertrexandroidx “Toxic” is 95% of people who throw around the brand new accusation of “toxicity” at will like it’s the new perfect shield against all their woes. For real
Main tank here, I do like the solution proposed, I believe I've actually watched that Lucky Ghost video too on the subject.
I can mostly adapt myself to either type of group but there's never a guarantee that all 3 teammates I get will be on the same side of the fence when it comes to speedrunning the dungeon or taking our time.
Another solution I'd like to see implemented though, which is something that both the community and ZOS should work toward, is encouraging people to be tanks. I remember having a terrible experience as a new tank in one particular run of Moonhunter Keep a long time ago when it was my first time going through that dungeon and not knowing anything. My bad experience though was a mixture of the dungeon being unfun to tank and a DPS player acting toxic. That could very well have been a quit moment for me and I would have quit the tanking role (fortunately it did not deter me and that was a very isolated incident). Point being that another way to fix fake tanking is to help nurture and grow the actual tank community so that people want to tank, both by providing a better gameplay experience for them and being understanding toward them.
Edit: I just also remembered that in my browsing I've seen some ESO videos on the topic of "how to have fun as a tank" and frankly I thought that was kind of sad that this is a discussion some people have.
Hi thanks for sharing and yes if you haven't done so feel free to check my previous video out on why there are no tanks in ESO. You may or may not agree with the points but one of them was people being too harsh.
I did watch it, it was was definitely a good listen and definitely agreed with your points there too.
Main Tank here too. I agree with all points you made on why tanking is often not fun. Either I am holding the group back (full heavy armor dragging me vs. teleporting mages or speeding orcs in worst case situation and barely stamina left to start the encounters) or I am expected to save their butts after they pulled everything, which is stressful because instead of a controlled pull I have to chain in scattered npcs. Fake tanking works if the fake tank can solo damage wise the dungeon. If it’s an average dps and other group members don’t hit a dps minimum it is bound to fail, be frustrating and upset people. Besides… new players are not learning organized play like that, which is detrimental later. Not everybody joins a guild that will take the time to teach group organization. That’s another source of frustration.
@@leatherDarkhorse I as a healer have had groups with 3 damage-dealers and under 25k group dps. It hurts.
What also hurts is when I as the healer have to be the one to slot inner fire to prevent the group from wiping.
I can't heal dps who get 1shot by a boss heavy attack they didn't block.
@@KFrey-fo2uq Yes, that's why we have the normal non-vet dungeons so new players can learn together, but then they are paired up with some cp 1000+ guy who just wants the daily crystals and all they get to do is look at dead bodies while running like mad trying to keep up with the crystal farmer.
I suggest also adding a solo random normal queue as well for the ppl who want to solo the dungeons and get the rewards. I think those three queues with the same rewards would reflect play the way you want.
I have no issue as long as you do the basics of the role you are queuing in as. But I do agree with your solution
It's not enough to do the basics but to also adjust to the type of group you're in. People want to go slow/do the quest slow/experience it for the first time, people want to go fast, etc etc. So the best way to do this is to divide the playstyles through dividing the queues.
@@NefasQS very true
@@NefasQS Yes, maybe.. Would be an interesting experiment to have this option to see how it works out..
@@NefasQS disagree entirely. The wait is already too long. Maybe people should adjust their mindset. It's an MMO. The decisions shouldn't be made based on what the elite want, but rather what's best for the game as a whole. Stay out of dungeons if you aren't willing to adjust to your group. If you aren't willing to wait for someone to do the quest, solo queue, or find hour own group.
@@FlashesSoccer011 Stay out of dungeons if you aren't willing to adjust to your group. If you knowingly end up in a group of strangers, don't hold those strangers to the same expectations you'd hold friends to, otherwise solo queue or find your own group.
See how easy this is?
Tanks/healers should be forced to slot taunt, healing skills and have specific armor weights as suggested by so many casual players or those so concerned for newer players in this comment section right?
Then DPS should be forced to hit a certain number of damage or have specific skills too for queue. Oh but that's elitist right? :)
So in the end, a dual queue system would solve all this stupidity until the toxic casuals have something else to complain about.
Though it doesn't apply to everyone, elite level players can fake take any random normal. If a potato queues as a fake tank and carpets, then its not right. If someone like you or me queues as a fake tank, chances are we'll be carrying the random normal group anyway.
Yup. Agree
Is that the solt fire
@@DefyLegends. WHERE
Newbies won't learn anything though from looking at all those dead bodies you leave behind as you barrel through the dungeon..
@@newworldforward1842 They learn how it’s supposed to be done 😎
I love the dual queue idea. I hate doing an unfamiliar dungeon in a group that wants to speed run it. Of course, I really don't trust the player base not to crap on a dual queue system by queueing up for whichever one is shorter, lol
I just want to listen to the dungeon quest’s cheap monologues one time each. Since I like TES lore, even if ESO lore is not even considered cannon. And the rest of the game is boring.
In my opinion, when you queue up as a tank, at the very least you need to be able to keep yourself alive. Whether it is an actual tank, or a DPS that knows when to block and dodge. Personally, I only fake tank on characters that 1) have inner beast and 2) Have completed vMA.
I agree with the sentiment but you certainly do not need to be anywhere near as good to clear vma as you need to be just to know when to block or dodge in a random normal! I'd say as long as you've spent about 30 hours in the game in your entire life, you should know how to block, dodge and heal! Which is more than enough for normal dungeons
@@tantrumtv4270 that is fair, I want someone that queues as a tank(fake or no) to ask themselves one question when they queue for a random; "if we get moonhunter keep, am I prepared get us through this?"
@@thefulcrum4466 haha Moonhunter isnt that bad if you know the mechanics (dodgeroll is your friend here). March of Sacrifices is WAY harder on normal especially the first boss fight so many one shot kill mechanics. Of course if all the DLC dungeons were doable with no tanks or healers required we probably wouldnt be talking about this subject.
@@aussie-elders what I mean is don't queue as a fake tank thinking you will get fungal grotto 1 every time.
I personally think all normal content can be completed without a real tank and healer, but not every group is ready/capable of finishing normal content without a tank or heal.
Just slot a taunt and nobody will complain. Hell, since it now gives a 10% damage increase it's beneficial to taunt
I do this all the time with my friend when a new dungeons drops. I rarely have any issues surviving, even when running in blind with just the 2 of us.
My two cents on this thing: (ik no one asked, but after what I've seen on Twitter I just have to scream this into the void lmao)
Regardless of where you fall on this debate, I think it is completely unreasonable to join a random queue and hold the members of your pick-up-group to the same standards and expectations as yourself or your group of PvE friendos (whether those standards entail lore walking through the whole dungeon, or having a party full of dps). You are bound to get all kinds of different players in a random queue, from casuals to veterans - such is the nature of the current LFG feature, unfortunate as it may be. If you want to run content with a bunch of like-minded individuals and guarantee yourself a pleasant and ideal PvE experience, your best bet is to find friends that feel the same way as you and queue up with them. There are a lot of amazing social and PvE guilds out there that I know would love to welcome in all sorts of players - these kinds of guilds are a great means to find other players that want to play the same way that you (the reader, not you Nefas lmao) do, so I'd highly recommend joining a guild to those that have had unpleasant experiences with the LFG feature.
Your proposed separate queue system seems like a sound alternative that could reduce the likelihood of conflict between these two camps of players. Perhaps it may even encourage more players to queue for random norms if they are more likely to get into a group full of like-minded players. I hope that it can be considered by the devs.
Fake tank dialogue aside, I was blown away by how vicious the ESO Twitter community was over your meme/hot take. Seeing that kind of verbally abusive behaviour unfold on my timeline by people that I follow and whom I had presumed to be kind, funny, and respectful members of the ESO community has been such an anxiety-inducing experience :') So sorry to see that you had to deal with that.
It’s called Buu gloss you basement youtuber?!?!
I'd say just take away the crystal incentive for experienced players to crash the newbie dungeons. Before the crystal farming, newbies had a much better learning experience.
Heeey the Mighty Arttea!
What you say I believe in to an extent but there should be some bare minimum standards to uphold or the idea to even que for a role become null and void.
Then the random dungeon finder should just be a que and not a role que.
@@xgrandchampx8916 I think it would be a tricky proposition - enforcing certain (albeit bare minimum) standards (like if a tank should have a certain amount of health before they are allowed to queue, or if a dps needs to have certain skills on their bar) would take away from eso’s whole “play how you want” mantra and potentially further isolate players from giving the LFG queue a shot.
@@Arttea Yeah but the "play how you want" is already restricted by a role que. You have to be a tank, DD or healer.
I wouldn't mind your suggestion but I think they should change the dungeon finder from a ROLE que to just a que. You get what you get, no expections.. Totally random soup. As long as its a role que I expect (for vet atleast) some bare minimum standards.
And then there is the time, when the the group (fresh new adventurers?) takes one hard look at you in the normal dlc dungeon and without single word of communication kick you out of the group... you lean in to your frost staff as you quietly walk to the nearest tavern to eat your forgotten lunch. Tears of confusion fill your eyes as you ponder, did they really thought I was fake?
Totally agree with your idea for 2 queues! It would also solve the issue of speedrunners vs questers! I also think a tanking / healing tutorial somewhere in the game is needed for people who are new to ESO/MMOs (like me)!
Tutorial on how to press a button to taunt boss and apply buffs? Do you operate under a hivemind?
@@Discorded no need to insult my intelligence! I have never played an MMO before and didn't know what taunting even was before I found UA-cam videos that explained what tanking is and how to do it. The fact that such videos exist means that the game doesn't adequately explain these concepts to total newbies, which is a detriment to the whole community as it means content creators and guildes have to spend time explaining basic stuff. It also means that players who do not have a lot of time to research are likely to annoy other players in pugs through no fault of their own. Imo it would serve everyone better if the game fully explained the roles.
@@hoa8362 @Discorded I wound up queuing as a tank not knowing how to taunt work what a taunt even was as well. The game genuinely does not even let you know it is a thing.
I have 5 tanks that I run daily normals on as often as I can. The hardest part of tanking a normal dungeon is the lower DPS in the group, which is fine - especially when the characters are new. I throw on Dark Convergence and spam walls most of the dungeon and bring in 40% of the damage even on a full-blown tank. Then I throw Dark Convergence, Inner Fire and a S&B on my damage characters and can tank all normal content perfectly fine + contribute a ton of damage.
Where I personally think fake tanking gets toxic is when they do these huge pulls with no agro/CC and then bitch when they die cause the (probably new) healer and DPS couldn't keep up.
I don't quite agree that the queue should be split, but I am hopeful that people will use the new Armory station to perhaps spec an appropriate tank set up for their damage characters so they can quickly throw it on for random normals. On PC we have our addons, but I still plan to use Armory for this purpose.
I fully agree, it's a complicated issue. I main a tank and sometimes play healer. On my tank I actually go with my solo DPS setup when I do nonDLC vets, but I always have a tank gear in my eq (and in dressing room) so I can switch if a tank is needed. Because of that I see no problem if a competent player fake tanks.
On my healer I actually had many problems with fake tanks. The biggest issue is that because how healers work in ESO the moment chaos erupts it becomes much harder to heal (I mostly use AoE ground heals or AoE spam heals like combat prayer). So if there is no tank and players are not competent enough keeping the group alive becomes a torture (I'm not the best healer too, so I can't really manage a chaotic fight). Because of that I usually take some tank stuff on my healer, but it's not enough for harder hitting bosses.
I just restarted playing ESO (EU/PC) acouple days ago. Quite frankly I can't imagine it being a problem in that setting because the problem is usually that some dude just runs ahead and basically solos the dungeon, doesn't really matter what role (people with Champion Points in the several hundreds). Those ruin the dungeon for anyone who doesn't just want to farm/zip through the dungeon. I can't recall more than 1 death (probably due to AFKing) in at least 50 or so dungeon runs. But the rushers are incredibly annoying in my opinion. Destiny 2 has the same problem, where you can't really get actually casual people to have a fun experience because all they can do is run through the instance past all dead mobs because they have no chance to keep up.
Qeue times on EU/PC (lvl 10 plus is my only experience here either as tank or as DD) seem very short. As a tank I always get an instastart for the dungeon, as a DD it was between 1 to 5 minutes maybe.
So I agree with you, there should be a casual qeue and a speedrun qeue or something along those lines. I remember when I played ESO years ago, dungeons could be at least a challenge in the beginning, but nowadays it's just breeze through in 5-10 minutes with pretty much zero challenge to it.
Or you should have the option to start a solo dungeon with rewards imho (them being slightly higher, maybe 25% or so) to give the farmers another option, because they will be DD usually anyways and thereby relieve the overabundance of DDs at least a bit. Or just remove all champion point boni from normal dungeons all together and scale too good gear down a bit.
I solod Fungal Grotto (normal) on my sorc at like lvl 30+ish so it's probably still super easy mode for farmers. Obviously I still remember a bit what I have to do, so I am not a complete potato, I did start both characters from lvl 1 (sorc now 40ish and DK lvl 27 or so), no twinking or anything but I am not a good player by any means.
Basically these days random groups are shite anyways because people rarley say hello or good bye, you may as well just play with bots, there is no difference and frankly it takes the fun out of most MMOs. This comes from experiences way back with Guild Wars, Destiny 2 and the likes. I really wish there would be an MMO like Everquest again, those were quite different times^^ when content was actually very difficult right from the start, these days you can usually go afk when one mob is attacking you and come back a couple minutes later still alive.
2 separate ques? You do realise that would just extend the queuing time right? How is that a fix?
Having this option for me would be useful either way, because almost every time I queue, I end up in a group that races through the dungeons so fast, I have no way to learn the dungeon or the boss mechanics. I can see there being an issue with inexperienced players joining the experienced queue, because they want to get the dungeons done faster with less chance of a wipe. To be honest I don't see why roles can't automatically be set by character stats/skills, then rather than having an experienced/inexperienced option, you could have a roles/no roles option, which I appreciate could boil down to the same thing.
Stick with it and you can join them... Rendered too inept to run the vets, you will forever haunt the normals like a middle aged man smashing kids in the chucky cheese ball pit, forever doomed to speed run past mobs you cannot hope to kill until you learn the fundimentals and hiding from you inability to advance by wrecking noobs with your overleveled "skills" while telling them to "git gud" because they "suck" at their role... or you can do like me (and 70%-80% of the playerbase) and find a game that's actually fun until zenimax learns their lesson or crashes completely.
Honestly I love this idea. And tbh you’ve given me a different perspective on the community and skill gap as a whole.
This idea isn't new, was brought up years ago over and over, never implemented... All they did was reward fake roles with faster queue time PLUS now they get transmutes... Opposite of helping.
Also a tanks build really depends on the rest of the group. You may que up and get a tank you think sucks but he could be setup really well for a different group. I have a few builds that I love but suck for randoms. One is arkasis and drakes rush and the other is war machine and sax but if the group is not coordinated or taking advantage of your buffs then it’s completely useless. I have randoms with these setups that go super well and I have some where I get kicked because it’s a bunch of newbs who don’t see the value in it.
I have no idea why you would pug a random on an optimized / specialized build. You're basically asking to be disappointed. How many times have you proc'd Encratis' and watched the DPS stand outside of it? Not sure how you'd expect them to somehow intuit other sets that offer no visual cue that you're providing a benefit.
Not sure why you'd get kicked -- unless you're failing in some fundamental tank aspect, like taunting, grouping, and staying alive.
@@theMochaFiend myself being kicked not common no, I have a time or 2 when other people start dying or a wipe from something outside my control but either way the blame always goes to the tank first. My impression of this has been mostly playing as a dd or healer and suddenly getting the notification to kick the tank because x happened when I know it wasn’t there fault. Not to toot my own horn but am always praised when I’m tanking but I was a noob once and I make mistakes as I’m only human but the dungeon que has very little patience lol
Solution. Base your daily bonus reward and any dungeon reward as follows. If you slot as a tank you must block this amount of damage or taught and keep agro this amount of mobs if you slot as healer you must heal this amount of health. Of course if you slot DPS no rules should apply to you because if you're not doing your role you're not going to make it through anyway and get any reward.
Bad idea. A good tank will not block much, that is something only inexperienced tanks do.
if you put this no ppl will queue as tank its stupid
I completely understand. End game users don't even need a tank in normal dungeons. But that being said, a tank or a really good healer can benefit the group so much, I know that when I get on my tank, I only do vet random 😅 I'm so bored and twisted in normal on a tank, I'm sure healers feel the same
I switched from tank to DPS and tried my first veteran dungeon as DPS. Turns out the "tank" was also a DPS (he had 2H and Bow, not a single taunt). What's worse is that I still use sword and shield (mostly for defense bar), my tank instincts kicked in when I aggro'd the boss, but I panicked when I saw my health bar actually depleting. By the end, the dudes started blaming me for not tanking until they saw my role icon (the alleged tank had already left the group).
But the worst part, the part that really dawned on me and kinda broke me, none of us died in that run. It was hard, but nobody died (I mean, yeah, it was a vanilla veteran dungeon, but still). That means that the tank role is an illusion to make tanks feel special and that the survivability of the dungeons depend on them, when it's not true, dungeons can be done without tanks.
Normal dungeons don't really matter, I used to solo them as a tank, I'm sure I could solo them as DPS now, but the fact that actual veteran dungeons (vanilla ones at that, not even the DLC ones) can be done without tanking is just poor game design on ZoS.
Tank is already the most worthless and useless role in PvP, and apparently it's also unnecessary in PvE (at least in vanilla).
I switched to DPS to enjoy ALL of the game's content, but it just feels so wrong to me, I've always been tank in any game I can, I WANT to be tank in ESO again (been tanking since the game released on consoles, I just switched to DPS a couple of months ago), and still be useful everywhere, but ZoS seems adamant on making tanks a viable role other than meatshields in dungeons. I mean, you can't even tank in solo arenas because of DPS checks. It's PvE, it's solo, and yet, tanking is completely useless.
It sucks because tanking is fun, you're the one who's supposed to direct dungeons based on how you control the bosses, you're the one who stays alive to revive your teammates, but you give up so much damage in exchange for defense, in the end it's just not worth it.
In PvP, even as a tank your health will get nuked, I hunted down a player who 2-tapped me (me, having 25k physical & magical defense, 45k HP). I assumed the player would be a glass cannon considering how massive his burst damage was, and when I found him, my flashlights larping as "jabs" were barely doing any damage to his health at all (I only see things in percentage, not sure how much health the dude had, but I couldn't get him below 95%). Seriously, in PvP you give up so much damage for defense, and yet you'll get nuked, your defense doesn't matter, and don't even deal any damage (and now there are "tank punishing sets" like hrothgar's chill... seriously, a set that punishes you for trying to tank in PvP as if you didn't get punished enough for it, even with battle spirit nerfing your healing, your health regen and your damage shields)
All that just to say, as much as I disliked the fake tank in my first DPS veteran dungeon, I don't blame fake tanks for their bullshit.
There's just no value in that role anymore. Just switch to DPS and enjoy having access to the full game with a single character.
I feel the same way. I play just about every game as a tank and love the role, but even I've switched to a solo build now. They can play any role.
I can't play arenas as a tank. No one needs me in most dungeons and even overland content is just way too slow. Every wb you need help or it costs me 30 minutes.
PVP I have given up completely. In my last attempt the opponent didn't even fight back and I couldn't get the base life regeneration down.
@@saschafrank9661 nobody need tanks on normal content ,just slot taunt and spam dmg shield or heal yourself and block an attack.Its not that hard.
PvP is tricky, some players can play with shields and be like immortal and deal a lot of dmg with their 2h weapons.Also idk how they are healing so fast in pvp area...
About damaging,ppl are also playing nbs that can kill ppl pretty quickly 0.00001 sec,no chance to play fairly ,and in addition, other than nb class ,ppl are using proc sets that also hit hard and i think it doesnt mean if you are good player but you got carried by a set that you wearing.Its piece of shit when I hear that zos saying that kind of sets is just to help new players.Its fake.New players dont know how to use it anyway and more experienced players are using this to get easy kills.Its just not fun,but waste of your efford.
It's not that hard to use taunt on the boss and keep yourself alive. For the other parts of the dungeons, well, just be a simple DD and beat the crap out of the mobs. That's what I do when fake tanking. I think if you have no taunt ability on your bars, you shouldn't even be able to pick the tank role in the first place.
great idea
You can't force people to play a certain way, what they can do is to change the incentives to make it less attractive to run normal non-vet dungeons for experienced players. There is otherwise always the "vote to kick" option if someone is really stepping too far from his/her role .
Undaunted range taunt also buffs dps, so its beneficial for dd farming crystals as well.
It happened to me on several occasions when people said in chat "finally real tank" and after we finished dungeon they realized that my hp is kinda low xD
Its really easy to tank normal dungeons, even dlc ones, especially after you farmed vet maelstorm arena and vet trials.
When I fake tank as a ranged dps, other players don’t even take noticeable damage because the normal instance is so weak, so I can even fake heal too whilst fake tanking and still carry with dps. 🤷🏼 Game’s got balance issues
@@newworldforward1842 yeah it would be logical to nerf the exp reward from daily random normals so it’s not the same reward as Vet.
As somebody who does fake tank quite a lot, as the transmute farm never stops unfortunately... Saying this does not benefit me, but an even simpler solution to what Nefas is suggesting, and one I believe there devs are more likely to take (though I would prefer to multi-queue solution) is that the rewards in terms of XP and transmutes are halved for normals, and as they are for vets. If they did that then people would be more likely to want to do the vet version as it wouldn't usually end on overly too much time, at least not more time than doing 2 regular dungeons usually! It also caps the grind on normal to half of a vet grind... and it would stop the farmers from fake tanking as much as it's really not much of an option with randoms in vet content as you normally just won't get it completed if it happens to be a harder dungeon or dlc dungeon
All the Devs need to do is change Normal dungeons so you dont NEED the holy trinity (DPS, Healer and Tank), if you want to go through on 4 DPS with Normal you should be able to, remember play how you want thats what the Devs are moving towards. If you want Veteran rewards thou (like the skins etc) then you need to coordinate a actual proper group.
@@aussie-elders It's already like that. That's why people are complaining isn't it?
@@newworldforward1842 I believe people are complaining because the tank is actually a DPS because you currently still need to select the role you wish to play. The game use to let you select 4 dps roles but they removed that years ago.
@@aussie-elders This is what you said: "you dont NEED the holy trinity (DPS, Healer and Tank), if you want to go through on 4 DPS with Normal you should be able to, remember play how you want"
@@aussie-elders "The game use to let you select 4 dps roles"????? -Never heard of that. Not even Beta players heard of such a thing.
I personally agree with you I don't promote it personally after level 40s because the harder dungeons after that point really need a tank but the early dungeons on normal don't really need it
until around 400cp i use to believe that dungeons consist of 3 damage dealer and 1 support. then one day i was in a group doing normal sunspire where i see on guy taking all the so much damage from dragons and not dying from it like real hero of the group.
👏/slow but enthusiastically, that’s what it’s all about muy frend!
Great points. I group with guildies all the time for random normal dungeons, and often while we rotate through our toons, we'll quickly get to a point where we don't have any more tanks to rotate through, but we all also have CP160+ (and typically CP1000+) toons that we can burn through pretty much any random normal w/o the need of a dedicated healer or tank. Now when we go vet hard mode pledges, we grab a dedicated tank, healer and 2 DPS. And sometimes we've got two or three really good DPS, and we may fake tank in that case, even with getting someone that underperforms, we can carry the third.
Normal dungeons? You have no idea how many clowns try to fake tank in Vet DLC dungeons. I literally have to requeue Vet dungeons 10 times before i can find a actual tank.
In my opinion the root cause behind many issues in ESO, including fake roles and dungeon finder being a miserable experience in general, is that ESO does not teach players how to play the game. The tutorials are lackluster and the early and mid game provides no challenge to encourage learning. The majoritiy of players reach the endgame without even understanding basic game mechanics. Players need to extensively study external sources to actually progress, something that many are, understandably, not willing to do. I think if ESO would provide a more steady learning curve for players, the community would be far less toxic, the skillgap would be more reasonable without ruining the game for top end players and in terms of the fake role problem, players would actually be competent enough to understand and fulfill their roles and there might even be more players interested in playing support roles.
I've played a bit of ffxiv and one thing I was SUPER impressed by was the role tutorial they give you before you can go in a dungeon for the first time. Putting something like that in the game, maybe thru the Undaunted, would be huge I think
Doesnt change the fact that people dont play healers or tanks.I have made both and most of the time if im not dding,dps is mediocre which ruins the experience of healing/tanking.
I just think if you will que up as a tank you might as well slot a taunt to not ruin it for the people who don't want to tank. it's one skill and it will make both your run and the run of others with you go a lot smoother. So many times people que as tank without inner fire and have the boss aggro on a lvl 15 dps that runs with their head cut off. Just slot a taunt and you will have both your fake tanking and the dungeon experience boss will stand still ect. its such an easy solution idk why its not more wide-spread
If they taunt they draw aggro and die.... So it's headless chicken time one way or the other...
If you queue as a tank with 24k health more power to you. If you can hold the boss/adds without getting one shot go for it.
Don’t encourage them 😂
I feel that since people are already avoiding long queue times by fake tanking, they'll also hop onto whichever queue is perceived faster if we added two queue types -- spoiling the experience of anyone who is actually there for that queue type by wanting the other kind of run. If they could be polite about it, they wouldn't be fake tanking in a way that's obvious. (IMO I don't care about fake tanks as long as they slot a taunt and don't die too much, I can handle trash on random normals so don't need any frills from my tanks.)
I wish I could figure out a way to make tanking for randoms more appealing; I find tanking for randoms excruciating on a whole extra level from healing or DPS, whether they're rushing ahead and pulling and dying, or doing less damage than I am on my non-fake tank. I've solved this problem by only ever tanking for friends and guildies, which is great for me but doesn't help the "too many fake tanks" problem.
Or since there's already achievements that track soaking, dealing, and healing damage, maybe there could be a "role check" where if you behave according to your role, fairly modestly to encourage newbies, you get extra goodies. That way a tank could get extra goodies for soaking damage, a healer for healing a certain amount, and a DPS for dealing a certain amount of damage. It'd certainly encourage real tanking if you got extra crystals for taunting each boss and blocking it at least once or twice.
Trainee tank here
My most common experience of dungeon queues is that I join a group, I quickly pick up the quest and turn around to find the other 3 have run off and I spend the rest of the time trying to catch up to them
Don't! Just hang back and walk slowly through the dungeon. Let them run and die all they want. It's part of L2P that tanks go first. If they don't know this the learning is on them, not on you.
@@newworldforward1842 - Yeah, but if it's a normal dungeon, they'll probably finish the dungeon while you're still hanging back, and you'll have to face the realisation of the fact that... you're just not that important. 😂
I'll confess that I fake tank at times. However, and this is key, I don't do it unless I'm on a fairly durable character I can slot a taunt on or I'm entering the que with a lowbie. Essentially, my personal rule is don't sign up for a role I can't perform. I don't mind when I have a fake tank in my party so long as they're either steamrolling the place by themselves or they at least tanky enough to get the job done and bother to taunt the big stuff.
This type video IS kinda needed. I teach new players often and they try to do what the more vet players do or deal with them doing it (fake tanking is an example). 3 skyshards aren't hard to get and everyone needs the undaunted tree so just get the range taunt and help the newer players learn easier to stop toxicity. Newer player die more often and sometimes farm to about 1k cp but have very little in content expeariance. Fake tanking can lead to toxicity on all sides not just from the tank. Just being a little considerate will help is all.
Eso is the only mmo I’ve played where “Get good” is somehow a bad thing.
Eh, no, pretty much any MMO where your only response to a new or unskilled player is "Get good," is going to be seen as a bad thing by a lot of people
First MMO where the “endgame” is considered the difficulty setting, not the actual group content itself. No requirements for “Trials,” way to ruin the experience of a first impression of a raid. Faceroll until u wanna actually attempt tactics… U simply can’t learn mechs for Vet in Normal where all tacts are ignored.
@@supertrexandroidx snowflakes. The “hold my hand” ESO community… Forget they’re supposed to be 18+ to play ESO.
All you need for tanking normal dungeons is a decent health pool and access to a shield. If you can contribute damage then great. Also you need to be able to taunt, either with gear or abilities. You could use tormenter with knights errant until you can farm better gear
Yeah, for normal dungeons it literally takes nothing more than heavy armor, a decent health pool, sword and shield, and the pierce armour taunt. If somebody provides that when I’m on a DD, I’ll never complain. I don’t need a boost to my DPS in a normal dungeon.
I have I think 5 toons right now setup for tanking. All 5 have heavy armour a sword and shield and a taunt. There's no normal dungeons so far I can't tank. None of the 5 have cp or stats altered for tanking, quite often I still pull more dps than the rest of the group while maintaining taunt. Oh and I only have mag toons.
I tried to do a tank build, but most of the dungeon groups I joined didn't respect my role and just did whatever they wanted, leaving me taunting a boss for absolutely no reason. Kind of frustrating so I abandoned that character for my other DPS builds. I prefer solo play anyway, but I thought it would be fun to run with some groups as a tank. Nope.
have accidently queued tank or healer a few times, forgot to swap back after running with friends. but never queue as tank or healer on purpose for randoms.
what addon are you using that shows the crown and heal above the heads of the other ppl in grp?
I hate Fanks! Absolutely hate them. The bad thing is they aren't even good DPS either...so more useless than anything.
Ill be honest, I used to fake tank. The qeue times for DPS are insane. But one day, it happened to me, I qeued as a DPS like I was and I had a fake tank. In a difficult DLC dungeon. I dont remember which one. It was very difficult for me as I was only like cp 200 at the time and because we had a fake tank for some reason a lot of aggro went to me despite not having any taunts. So I kept dying. We as a group just gave up after 90 minutes.
The days that followed I made a legit tank and a legit healer. Spend a lot of resources on both and now I only qeue as a tank on my tank. One of the best accomplishments I have on my tank is Veteran Scalecaller Peak. I understand that some of you are probably like reeeeee easy. But to this day, that is one of the best achievements I got on my tank and I am damned proud of it. Mainly because I rarely do Vet dlc dungeons since vsp I only did like 5 more vet dlc dungeons. vsp was like 2 years ago.
Tanking in Banished Cell 2 isn’t fun when you see 2 DPS spend nearly 3 minutes to kill 1 daedroth while the boss has just summoned 2 more daedroth.
Banished cell 2 is probably the only random on vet where I consider dropping out just by looking at the levels of the dps. Too many frustrating experiences with 9 daedroth swarming around my tank!
I agree, btw group don't actually have to kill daedroths, tank can just hold them while dps 🐋 on boss.
I have had that exact experience
Makes a lot of sense to add queues - it’s basically the same problem they’re trying to solve with multiple Cyrodiil instances. Give folks different rule sets to self-select into. I bet with farmers in a fast queue, that things would go better for slow-queue folks too.
The good point to be had to explain fake tanking ques is simply put theres not enough actual tanks queing in the first place for random normals. They're all on vet ques. How does ZOS address the issue? They have and it was with the addition of companions for you to go by yourself with the companion being tank spec into those dungeons. Therefore the kick option is there for group as well and a companion can then be summoned for tank of you kick a fake tank. This is all points being made to ignore the fact the people can talk to one another so the content can be done with a fake tank having the means to do it or the other 3 doing what needs to be done for a fake tank.
Late to the discussion here but... I've been thinking about the thing with multiple queues as well. The only issue with that is still for us who like to have a tank role and stack mobs so dps' can do more effective damage. I like organizing stuff, I think that's one of the main reasons I like tanking. But I also love to grind for xp. I don't want neither of them being taken away because of a queue system where nr. 1 is "go slow" or nr 2 is "go with 3 dps that thinks killing every mob one by one is more effective than stacking them on the boss"... I mean, it's an MMO, I just wish we could play it as a team whenever people find themselves in a team and not just go their own thing in each corner of the map, wether it's a dungeon or a bg
*Sadly, ESO is designed to be a shallow experience in cooperation.* It is Literally tailored to suit individuals who want to take shortcuts all the way through the entire game, and still be viable for end-game content with minimal effort. Who buy their mounts and copy their character builds, and see nothing flawed in their own player development with that. Never quest, and think TES lore is for geeks. Yet, these are disproportionately the players who wanna raid end-game trials and pvp in Cyrodiil. - - - EXP used to be a Byproduct of your Progress… Now, it is Nothing but an Inflated TimeLock to incentivise people to actually play their otherwise bland and rewardless content. Only for the power boost of course.
heya Nefas i feel you truly touched on the issue around this fake tanking issue. i myself Main the role as tank and have a few low dps toons that basically just farm stuff for my tanks. When i queue as dps and get a fake tank and notice it i just slot a taunt and trust in my skill level as a tank main to get it done. Feels bad to hear the hate you get just for saying whats on your mind just because you create content. say your say brother, your words hit truth on the matters. much love and respect for your vids and time on these matters
I fake tank and I legit tank. When I fake tank I put on taunt and resistance skills. 9 times out of 10 not only do I taunt and hold the boss and adds I do most of the group healing and DPS. When I legit tank about 4 times out of 10 I have to suffer thru a group that cannot do normal base dungeons. It ends up being a frustrating grind.
One thing that would help is to make the rewards based on the role you select somehow. Idk how well it would work but it's something ZoS should consider.
I fake tanked once (I did not understand what tanks actually did at the time), the teammates were not enthusiastic about it but were accommodating so long as we did not get wiped repeatedly. We Steamrolled and finished very quickly (the healer was mvp), they wanted to go again same setup but because of their kindness I declined because I felt bad for doing it.
When I played healer (not fake this time) I would get fake tanks all the time, I would calm people down saying "lets try it first before leaving." It would put a lot of extra strain on me having to kite around my teammates very actively to get enemies off me and I would be reviving people mid combat a fair amount at times. Even then we would complete the dungeons in the expected amount of time and we rarely fully wiped (usually when I died), and I had a fun and engaging time.
However when I got a real tank things were a breeze, even with bad tanks, and people genuinely were very kind and accommodating to even the worst tanks often giving a share of their loot to the tank when it seemed like they were getting depressed. That being said the most interesting dungeon I was a part of was one with 2 fake DPS, we wound up with 3 healers and one tank..... No one could die..... ever.
just have a healer character. It's so ez to heal I just half ass pay attention while watching a show on the other monitor while the monkeys do all the work for me
🤣
It used to bother me in regular dungeons, but there is so much DPS in the game now that it really only comes up every so often in DLC dungeons. Some bosses really are a pain in the ass when you don't have someone who can taunt and take a hit. Other than that, I am not bothered by it.
100% the game should be doing this (also one for queue no healer option or both no tank no healer)! Tera did something similar many years ago to address long queues waiting for tanks/heals. Yes all these normal dungeons can by run by just dps if they're experienced but there are new and inexperienced players just learning and may need stronger support roles there. When they land in a dungeon not spec'd to self heal or expecting a tank to be holding the boss it can be a rude surprise- and yes- the normal content could be failed by these newer player teams. When you queue in the current system you are expecting a tank with some aggro skills / tankiness /buffs debuffs, and a healer to be there to top of your health/buff you/ debuff bosses. At a minimum if you're going to jump the queue by changing your role to tank you should at least have aggro skills and the ability to avoid the mechanics or take a couple boss hits without dying. At this time in the current system I would say it's best to join guilds and put together your own team for all dps or no tank or no heal runs.
It would be cool if the que knew the armor and skills you have in place and rank your build, in the form of tank/dps/healer, and then have that under the option your choosing so others automatically know what your build will be like.
And maybe a que that prefers the correct builds.
Still wont change the fact that people dont play tanks.Will be the same thing and you will still have to fake tank as to not waste 1 hour of your day waiting on a daily random dungeon queue.
Tanking regs and most vets can be super fun dudes. Templar + Tormentors + any selfish set that heals u (like crimson) + all stam enchants and bam. Slot dps abilities and gogogo! Fun af!
Thx for the vid. It brought me to the idea that i will slot a taunt next time and do real tanking. Im a pvp player and tanky anyway and i do pve only if i have too but from time to time i need to farm stuff and thx to this vid it will be faster and easier next time.
My only problem with a fake tank is when I’m testing a new build and I can’t get rotations in.
Having more options would help, but I don't think solve the problem entirely when the ego gets in the way. I like the option of different paths and even a solo path, in combination with some basic minimum specs the game could recognize are necessary for either tanking or healing.
I won't cue up as a fake tank or a fake healer as my primary stats are DPS but my backbar on my nightblade is running a resto staff with healing skills just in case my group runs into issues I can switch my roll in a boss fight.
2 Q'es? Why not 25? What Would stop that 'bad' speedrunners or 'faketanks' from queuing to your snowflakes queue? Nothing
I constantly queuing at my DPS characters as tank to any Normal dungeon. And would always do that.
Why?
To lower queue time obviously.
I know perfectly all mechs, my DPS is BIG, if need I can slot Undaunted's taunt skill, I tank anything without even moving and external healing.
I didn't understand why not every experienced DPS player doing the same? Do they love to sit in queue to NORMAL for 30+ min?
Vets are different story. Usually I'm not faketanking there, but pretty sure I would be able to tank the same as good as in Normal for any vanilla dungeon (coz they are easy AF)
DLC dungeons are way harder, so if I meet a 'tank' here who: can't keep aggro, can't grab all monsters to same spot for aoe, can't survive properly - then I just starting votekick. And no matter who is he: faketank Sorc with Lightning staff or Dk in heavy with SnB. If you are trash - you are going to the FO.
AND! I treat in the same way others:
If healer don't heal and dont support - he should be kicked.
If DPSers don' output at least 25k DPS each - then they should go to Normals and gather gear, but don't be playing burden role in vets.
And if someone wanna 'learn' dungeon, check every corner and open every urn, then they should gather in group of 4 and live in the dungeon, but they just has no right to expect that from some 1k+ guy who just joined to complete daily as fast as possible.
This whole issue is not only restricted to ESO, other similar mmo majority players run as dps, thus queue time becomes very long for them, but the opposite happens for tanks and healers since their numbers are so low compared to dps, thus their queue time is fast, sometimes really fast. Thus many dps find it more ez to queue under a different role to decrease their queue
Well I main tank for a while and if i run pug, the biggest issue I had, was people not pushing dps for random (where me as fulltank makes up to 30-40% groupdmg). That is why now, I am only running faketank if i queue up for randoms. Up until now, I have yet to experience someone calling me names. I think as long as you do the tank job as dps, people wont bother. Most of the time I ask group if someone has still quest so that I'm playing slow or even explaining newbies the mechanics. I think all the hate regarding fake tanks comes from a bad place, where inexperience players queue as faketank hoping for a carry. Not slotting taunt or whatsoever, is just selfish. Even if a faketank push dps hard and are able to solo the dungeon, if you dont do tank job, other wont have a pleasent playing experience.
Yeah I fake tank as a Rdps Warden Archer build, never got cussed out except perhaps once but the guy shut up when he realised I was still carrying everyone absolutely and he could barely even get off any dps on mobs before I had already killed them all without hardly stopping running.
If a fake tank doesn't have a taunt just vote them out.
I don't think it's that bad if you know what dungeon you are going into and something like a base game normal dungeon but you probably shouldn't random queue as a fake tank. Or best of all just form your own group without a tank vs using the group finder and lying about your role.
Are they even fake tanks if they have a taunt??
Run a taunt, Major breach and dont die, hit those and I really couldn't care if u were a fake or real tank so long as it's a random norm.
Last night I was queueing to normal random as a fake healer (yeah I know but at least I had some heals for group due to being templar, sorc and warden) and all the times we had fake tanks and its wasn't an issue at all. Only once got into a bit of a trouble in the cauldron having lvl 40 and CP 120 in the group. So if you have some experience and doing normals fake tanking is not an issue but for new players it is a very bad experience that may turn them away from group content or even game
In all honesty I don’t see this issue ever going away. As long as every class has the potential to fulfill every role you’re left at the mercy of player integrity and player intention when queuing up. If the game was designed like FFXIV where one class literally can literally only do one role we wouldn’t have this issue. Fake tanks and fake healers are simply the price we have to pay for the combat and build diversity relative to games that have role locked jobs like FF.
Havent played in a while but I farmed the gearset from Selene enough to know that you can solo that ****
With a taunt on your bar you can usually get them to stay quiet
There should be 2 Q options
1/ Q for “traditional squad” Tank-Dps-Healer
2/ Q for “whatever squad” 4 random players
I've seen fake tanking in vet dungeons (though far rare). When I see it in normal, it's persons using a two-handed weapon without a single taunt skill in use. When I ask how they are taking, I've heard everything from "I'm a meat shield" to "oh, I just sold my sword and board." My main issue with fake tanking is when as a full-spec healer or even as DPS, I get focused on so much that I cannot heal or DPS (if playing dps)... then it becomes aggravating beyond compare. My feeling is that if I'm going to q correctly and do my best (and I'm not taking item sets, skill lines, etc... I'm talking the role itself -- i.e. if dps, I hope my % of damage per cmx is 33% or higher of the group damage and as healer that I can keep everyone alive even if I cannot get out the single one or two combat skills I have on my bars. BTW, another frustration that happens is fake healers (especially in vet) where the "healer" isn't using a restoration staff and while they may have heal skills slotted, they are just trying to dps with the dps people (I had that happen today for a vet pledge).
I agree the solution should come from the vendor. I know I'm doing RND for the 10 transmute crystals (and 1 skill point if the quest was not done prior). For vets, typically they are for pledges (but not random).
Who cares if they don't have a taunt? Gonna run from a normal boss who does like 2-3k dmg per attack and braindead 2+2 mechanics?
@@Discorded Everyone else who signs up to do their role. Just imagine you go to work and you and all but one of your coworkers do their job, but there's one who never does their job... and that impacts everyone else. Socialism at work.
Queue times for a DD on console can take up to 2 hours sometimes. But there is not just fake tanking there are fake healers too.
I personally hate when players pug as the wrong role. Playing with your guild mates or friends, do whatever. But if you’re going to pug, be the role you’re built for. Even on normal dungeons. I think it teaches newer players that it’s OK to do this and when they get to vet content they’ll already be accustomed to this bad habit and then will complain and rage about why they got kicked from the vet dungeon.
No, if a new player is that stupid then he needs to tell his mum to stop buying him 18+ rated games. SIMPLE AS. Don’t dumb it down for the rest of us.
…People wanna play competitive MMORPG group-difficulty content without even knowing how a basic dungeon group functions… Tell um try questing first. …And then WE get told that we must have our game changed to adjust for these types of people who don’t even try to learn…
I agree that players should learn the basics first but people these days are spoiled and used to things just being handed to them. They expect to come in game and be able to play at the same skill level as veteran players. Expect to have stuff just given to them and when they don’t get it they either create scams like asking for “gold to respec” or soul gems they can flip in a trader or sell to a merchant or they find the forums and rage there.
But I also think many players who come into dungeons want to learn them proper and when others skip enemies, skip mechanics or queue as the wrong role it teaches them bad habits.
As for the games rating, I wish there was a way devs and platforms could determine a players age to uphold this law but they can’t. So we are stuck with some 8yr olds yolo playstyle while they type racial slurs in text chat and use bow LA’s from out of range shooting at their shadows.
In some of the harder vet dungeons fake tanking doesn't always work, and in trials it will never really work. In the normal dungeons of ESO, espeically the solo-able ones can be fake tanked with a 3rd good dps. I've never fake tanked, but I do see it happen, it is encouraged in normal dungeons as it will just get done faster.
The most player that I know with proper tank toons don't like to play with pug normal groups. Reason are as follows:
1. Pug players alot of the time start the add pull or boss fight before the tank is there and then the tank would have to alot of effort to get aggro back.
2. Sometimes tank player themselves pull more dps then the dps in the pug group
3.Pug group some times don't even bothering to learn the normal dungeon mechanics.
4.Fake healer /bad healer make tanking harder then it needs to be.
5. Playing on vet is more enjoyable for tanks. When build properly, tanks some time can just face tank most normal dungeon boss just with puncture and blocking.
5.Most vet player bother to learn mechanics. So less painful
6. Lastly when in normal dungeon everything comes a dps rush.So enjoyment is minimal as a tank.
I think these reasons also contribute to the small tank population in dungeon finder. Which in turn make fake tanking problem worst as number of proper tank aren't even in the public pool to being with.
The inability to tank is arguably the least important factor - it's often being done by someone who can be toxic and has no regard for anyone else in the dungeon. I never had to deal with it until I made alt characters because my main is a tank. It creates a bad experience for a lot of new players but it's the kind of behavioural issue that ZOS can only hope to influence by incentivizing different behaviour. Normal dungeons shouldn't be the best and easiest transmute farm and players should have better ways to earn them.
This nailed it. If you got taunt np for me. I do most fake tank rule in normal and I deal more damage than the DD. Even in some instances when I do DD it's more toxic they ask you what your waiting and what parse are you doing. Well dead DD is not goi5 to help. Parse is unrelevant u are killing a moving target. People tend to force there idea to your build and that is bs
Main healer here that just started tanking. I feel like all normal dungeons and even some of the non-dlc dungeons can be fake tanked IF the fake tank has a spot and at least some way of knowledge about the dungeon. This said, I most of the time have dds as fake tanks that have underwhelming dps, no spot and usually start rushing several groups of mobs at once, and this can turn out to be very stressful and not a fun experience for me.
So if you must fake tank because your dd queue takes >30 minutes (those can be real numbers on EU) - please take a group at a time, use your spot and stay close to your healer ...
I will thank you for that by keeping you alive
I've fake tanked quite a bit with friends but I do also have 5 tanks anyway. Just the other day I was with some friends and we random queued into Unhallowed Grave but 2 of the group had never done it and one of them hadn't hit 50 on either of their characters. I know my stam sorc can fake the dungeons Maj and Glirrion give you but to be safe I switched to an actual tank to be safe but that cost me and the other person who switched to an actual healer 10 transmute crystals. (Next time I won't fake if the lowest member of the group is 45 or above!)
By the way, if I may suggest to the developers: Get rid of random daily dungeons. That's right. Make the daily Undaunted dungeons reward transmutes instead. Divvy up the extra xp amongst them, so that you're earning keys and transmute stones.
I know... It's radical
What if ppl start fake tanking those
Or random vet only gives 10 transmute no one is stupid enough to fake tank rendom vets. And keeps the higher level players away from lower levels so they can also enjoy the game.
@@kennethblanton8536 i have bin playing this game from the beta and i have almost never seen it, only before alot of the dlc's
@@predaR6 This is a good point. Maybe putting a minimum cp requirement like they did with the older dlc dungeons.
Personally, I only use my dps/tnk on normal non-dlc (and a small handful of DLC and vet dungeons I know I can easily handle). This means I never run randoms on that toon, if I want to run a random I grab a real tank. Besides I have so many transmute stones they are an annoyance to have to always delete them since they are taking up almost half my inv on most of my toons (only keeping purple and golds). I always have a Taunt, I know how to properly tank such as turning boss away from group, dodging/blocking, activating Synergies, etc... I have so many heals coming back from my damage and other healz (since I am Stamplar and running the Briarheart set, using Barrier and rend as my ult's, using repentance, Restoring focus, and Breathe of life) that I don't need to rely on a healer almost at all, etc... I get so much healing coming back I can usually sustain through most situations as long as I do not get hit over 27K hp (my max health). Not to mention I usually do more dps than the other 2 dps combined (in nearly every run). In other words, if I cannot do the job properly then I don't do it at all. That should be the motto of every fake tank. If you fake tank, please respect your group and make sure not to screw them over.
I have been pretty critical about fake tanks . . . until now. Mostly because I didn't think about the implications. I guess I'd rather have much shorter queues with a fake tank, than sit around for 30 min waiting for a tank.
Maybe have a Random Normal *No-Comp* queue and a Random Normal *Proper-Comp* queue.
If the que finder actually worked as intended. People would probably que as respective roles. But no one wants to wait 30+mins or swap to a tank or healer. When they got on what ever dps even if they don't hit hard. Also I think alot of the fake roles had at least done the quest once or so. A que for newer /casual players an one for speed runners would be nice
While the Armory kinda fixes it one of the reasons I rarely played my tank (even after fully gearing and training with him) was the fact that overland content was pretty horrible (and before the Armory it was easier to just mildly re spec a healer into a semi Magicka DPS). In short I didn't like the fact that his only use was mainly group content.
epic level trolling fake tanking during this video (PS you definitely bring up good points on the need to fix structural issues rather than blaming players)
Hey gamer!
Long time GAMER, first time ESO player, started around 2 months ago. HATED #rpg since childhood, #ESO has grabbed me by the munduses and I'm LOVING EVERY MINUTE. As with All communities there HAS to be an elite, smarmy,snarky crowd. YOU are the day one player's,..... Not all but every youtuber who identifies,..... Tells it in the way they speak,. It plain to see if you can't handle a normal dungeon, with the boss smacking the shit out of all four player's,... Then your shit. But as a new player I understand, THIS IS THE ONLY RECOGNITION YOU WILL EARN IN YOUR LIFE. Have at it, your a god bro,.. everyone wants to be you. The game is still good, as a new or smarmy player. Good shit.
They just need to allow us to trade dungeon and non-perfected trial set pieces. Thus we would be able to get what we want without farming transmute crystals.
zos wont do that cause then u could just buy the sets from dlc u dont own and avoid buying it.
Fake tanks are fine in random normal dungeons IF it happens to be a base game dungeon. However, with random dungeons, u never know what dungeon you'll be getting into. And some of the DLC dungeons actually require a real tank cuz of mechanics and/or the damage output by mobs and (mini) bosses.
Also. usually the fake tanks don't even equip a taunt at all and when getting at a boss, they just stand there waiting until someone else initiates the fight.
It's rather frustrating, because a damage dealer often can't put out damage he/she normally does, cuz you are busy kiting the boss around. If a boss gets kited, you have to run after it if you are a melee dps. I can only use 1 hand to play this game, because of a physical handicap on my left arm (it's paralyzed), so you can imagine, that if I'm on my Stamblade, most of my damage comes from melee attacks, and that's gonna be hard if the boss can't stay in one place for most of the times.
As stated, I don't mind it that much in base game normal dungeons, but DLC is a whole different ballgame, and thus I DO mind the fake tanks, especially if they don't have a taunt, and their dps is not worth noticing.
I stand by fake tanks in normal dungeons
As a healer I don't mind a fake tank if they pull their weight. Slot a tank and heavy gear.
I’ve recently returned back to ESO after 2 years. I just happened upon your video and damn does this explain so much! Not gonna lie, a few player definitely got a "fucking heal/take aggro bruh" from me in the chat. Buuuuuuut you do make a point. I always said that system needed to change. 2 years ago I mained healer and tank because the queue for dps took awhile (playing on console) but now I find myself getting queued faster being a dps than support. I get why is happening but I’m very indifferent about how this makes me feel. I’m trying to play thru the new content so I’m not familiar with the new dungeons added in the last couple of years. Not having a proper tank or healer is just fucking annoying and now I think I might have to substitute certain abilities just to be able to survive. On the other hand, the queue is straight trash and the player had to find a way to work around a poor system. Hopefully this changes in the future.
Omgosh yes!! This is such a heavy problem that I switched from 85k MagSorc DPS to a Sword & Board DK tank. I LOVE IT! If anybody ever needs a real dedicated immortal/taunt tank let me know!! (Rajah Iry Hor)
I do faketank with my pvp-specced characters. But I put a taunt and/or pull on.
I like fake tanks, lets run though this as fast as possible
There are three big problems that stand out to me: 1). Lack of taunt 2). A minority of fake tanks seem to have good DPS 3). In vet many of them just can't tank the hits meant for real tanks.
A lot of them don't seem to know basics, too. I had a fake tank in a four man PUG tell me they didn't need our healer cos they had Pale Order. Well, good luck with your 4% heals, buddy.
Actually tank doesn't need a healer. Except for resources but even that if fight is long. Healer is to buff dps and cover their a$$es if they screw up with aoes and mechanics. The only heal that would matter for tank is blood fountain (that 65% can save tank if he screws up) but normally tank doesn't need even that when he is experienced enough.
@@skipperg4436 “actually tank doesn’t need healer.” What that means mate is that your game is FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN.
@@skipperg4436 you seem to be getting “healers” mixed up with just “templars.” … you’re too conditioned for meta builds. That’s not how a healthy MMO economy runs. “Healers are just there to buff dps and cover dps mistakes in aoe…” You obviously convinced yourself of that in chat with another meta-sheep.
@@sweet5694 this game is not WoW.
@@skipperg4436 WTF are you talking about dude 😂
My solution...
Que as tank, gain a buff. All attacks taunt. Reduce damage taken by 50%.
Reduced self healing by 50%.
Que as dps, gain a buff. Increase damage done. Self healing Reduced by 50%.
Que as healer. Damage output Reduced by 60%. Healing output increased by 50%. Damage taken increased by 50%.
imo Deltia already had a better idea. Separate dungeons into separate tiers.
We need to admit that not all dungeons are equal. Base Game dungeons are vastly easier than DLC Dungeons.
Split them into separate tiers, each tier with its own daily. The higher the tier, the higher the reward.
This provides clear direction of progression to the player base and provides adequate incentive to participate.
Players drop dlc dungeons because they don’t feel adequately compensated for the time they spent playing it.
But if the harder dungeon dailies had more reward then people would be more inclined to play them AND they would be better prepared for their role in the higher tiers