It’s innovation. Does it matter whether it’ll actually work? Nope, not at all. The process may discover something new or it may be a big fat waste of time. No technological leap forward happens magically - it’s an iterative process with many prototypes.
Marketing gone mad, not technology. It doesn't work, it wont work (ask an engineer if you know one) and it's far from new. There is a pretty long list of fatal flaws and problems (non fatal but still requires compramise) but none of the press do anything but give this positive air time. It's a dud. oldbike.eu/1898-quadrant-chainless-light-roadster/
Doubt the system will handle sprinting loads, might work in a time trial application with more gradual force applied In a sprint I doubt theres enough lateral stiffness in the rear disk to stop the bearings flexing it out the way and slipping
Open bearings, great idea ^^ By the way the efficiency on regular chain setups is about 97-98% at around 200-300 W. And as we all know wind tunnel testing is a huge marketing bs cause nobody has laminar airflow in real life conditions.
At which point a belt drive sounds better to me. No complex and tight-tolerance machining requiring super alloys and exposed lubrication -- I look at that 'cassette' and think Inconel because the driver force appears to be treating the cassette like a cantilevered dinner plate being pushed into the spokes.
Judging by those open bearings in both ends of the shaft, first time in the rain would completely destroy the drivetrain. Sure, you could use sealed bearings or completely weatherseal the shroud, but that would add drag that's not wanted in their "marginal gains" philosophy. Hmm. It is an interesting concept, but i don't think we're going to see this anytime soon in production (and knowing ceramicspeed's pricing, nobody would ever be able to afford one anyway lol).
Actually there is no shortage of middle aged dentists and accountants lining up right now hollering "take my money"! These folks buy a new bike when they get a flat tire.
Also, what if CeramicSpeed went to completely different direction and made a shrouded single speed version of that driveline and paired it with something like Pinion or Rohloff. Ultimate maintenance-free powertrain for those that have deep pockets? :P
This is actually an application where full ceramic bearings would be appropriate, since the bearings aren’t taking any big impacts. If they end up using full ceramic bearings (which they won’t), water and lubrication will basically be a non-issue.
@@newttella1043 don't make fun of the guys who can afford the newest tech. They pay for the initial R&D and manufacturing costs so the tech can "trickle down" later.
Why is everyone hating on this? It looks awesome. Sure there's a possibility that it won't add any benefit or even work. But so what? Let's just see where it goes. Even if it is a total success and destroys your aging derailleur, no one says that you need to use it.
It does look cool, but... it looks to me like the shaft driver (the circle of cartridge bearings) is trying to push the 'cassette' into the spokes, so the cassette would have to be insanely stiff (e.g. Inconel) to not flex, wear, and skip. I think the crank would have a similar issue. Shifting would either require the shaft driver bearings to be rounded like marbles to be able to slide into the next cog, or there would be some synchronizer AND some amazing lube that would let each cartridge bearing outer race slide nicely from one heavily loaded tooth to the next, or raise up and jump to the next without letting the wheel spin backward.
They really should put this into production for the track first. Would really be able to test the products they have much sooner and to a better standard.
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Ceramic speed : selling overpriced state of the art gadgets you don't need since 2004
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@@atticushexcel9567 I know people with steel bikes that would make you puke your lungs out.
@@atticushexcel9567 It's not about holding on to traditions, it's about using expensive technology but not gaining much. Ceramic gears have their place, but they are only useful for rpm's of 50k-150k. Things you'll see in industrial applications, but not on a bike. So go ahead, shell out hundreds of dollars, pounds or euros and gain 0,8% drivetrain efficiency. Meanwhile, the rest of us will focus on things that actually matter.
@@atticushexcel9567 I was going to buy a Shimano Dura Ace FC-7410 crankset - NOS square taper for £250 because it was a beautiful work of art. But my 30+ year old Lugged F Moser steel frame already has a NOS Shimano FC-7700 Dura Ace crankset. I have gone back to down tube shifters and non aero Ultegra brake levers. The Shimano Sante hubs on H Plus Son TB14s rims are smooth and make for an excellent wheelset. I'm also impressed with the Brooks B15 ti saddle as well. Its fun dropping the occasional carbon superbicyle fellow on a retro 'Eroica' bicycle with the handlebar 'eye brows'. But it starting to get getting more difficult once you get past 50 years old.
Spray with small stones from the front wheel will hit the cassette, will the bearings on the driveshaft be able to handle this ? A convetional chain will flex up if there is anything between the chain and cassette.
I've been thinking of how to design this for years...well before Driven made its debut. The moving of the gears isn't too difficult if my mind, the major problem is: as you move between teeth in the back the gap between teeth becomes bigger and you essentially don't have multiple gears OR the path of the 'derailleur' does not follow a straight line radially and thus trying to mesh between gears as the 'derailleur' is moving across the plate becomes very tricky because a tooth is likely going to be in the way of where it is trying to move.
Unless the gap between each row of teeth is at least as great as the thickness of the bearing; though, in that case, you would be pedaling freely between every single shift. No shifting under power. Last time something similar happened to me, my face met pavement.
It is evident that the small wheels engaging the toothed crown-shaped cogs and spur have a sliding movement when they touch each other. Also, the contact point is very small, thinking about what power and torque any professional cyclist can put out. The most absurd concern is that chainring is an old concept and should be considered obsolete, while upright bikes belong to an even older concept and an incredibly wide variety of recumbents have proven their aerodynamic advantage, far far more than what this device does. Why did Specialized test this is good question indeed... But you know, 3D printers can put out extremely convincing mockups just in hours and with comparatively low cost, so in the endless effort to get 8 seconds out of 40 kilometers everything is worth testing... My personal conviction percentage about this device is yet to crawl to 1%, for what a single opinion is worth.
I think its super exciting. Yeah yeah I'm reading the comments and it seems there are plenty of people who are sure of its demise. Maybe you guys are smart enough to understand the pitfalls of this system but to this simple bike rider it looks amazing! I'm sure if it ever comes to market I won't be able to afford it but hey I don't hate other tech I can't afford. If this is the direction drivetrains go someday in the future, I look forward to seeing them out on the road:)
I will get excited when I see one switch gears. And more excited if it still works when it's wet or if there is a little dirt kicking back into it. I am really skeptical about Ceramic Speed. But Specialized are for real so maybe...
The gear change would be very complex - you cannot simply move the entire bearing wheel thingy down the driveshaft in one go while everything’s moving/under load. I think you’d have to split it into 2, moving the first half when it disengages with the cassette, then when that’s engaged on the target cog, you'd move the second half. Each movement would have to be synched with the driveshaft rotation and completed within just over half a turn of the drive shaft, which is going to be rotating at > 500 rpm or so at a high cadence. The overall gear change would also have to be synched with the position of the cassette as the 'handover' could only happen at a point where the teeth of each ring are suitably aligned. It’s not beyond the wit of humankind, but it won’t be cheap. As someone else mentioned, the lateral stiffness of the 'cassette' is also something to be very skeptical about - especially on the outer row of teeth. There's very little contact area compared to a conventional chain, so slightest amount of flex in the cassette will cause skipping, and there will be a lot of lateral force on it. I'd love to see it work, but until then it's neither progress nor technology gone mad - it's nothing more than an interesting idea.
This system will only work if all the parts have infinite stiffness. Since that is impossible, it's bound to fail. Really like the idea and the effort tho. Trying something new takes guts.
Even with perfect magical lateral stiffness this system still has two right angle bends that will cause inevitable loss of power. If we factor in real world material flex the system as pictured would skip even under moderate power. Ceramic speed is well known for unfounded claims and there is probably a good reason why they have not shown this thing being ridden. What puzzles me is how they persuaded Specialized to put their brand on this scam.
It is likely that Specialized was commissioned to produce a modified frame and test it in their wind tunnel. They don't spend any of their own money, and their bike gets shown in all these articles and videos.
I hope it works! I’m skeptical, because it would seem there would be a lot of side pressure, resulting in inefficiency, to maintain contact of components. Especially, back cassette pushing drive outwards. That’s just a crazy guess on my part.
I am amazed they are still working on this. Some quick research into motorcycle technology indicates that shaft driven power in motorcycles is substantially less efficient than chain driven power. Given that there is actually a lot of research and real examples of shaft driven power in motorcycles you would think that if they could rival the efficiency of chain driven then you would see it on motorbikes. I think once they actually engineer this to have similar reliability to a chain drive it would wind up being extremely inefficient to the extent that it is not practical for pedal bikes.
UA-cam User, stand on the drive side-lock the front brake- put your foot on the crank and apply torque-try lifting the chain several links from 1st engaged link. You will see they are spreading the torque load.
True but the forces on a regular chained bike follows the biked direction and the concepts forced would move away from the bike on the right side. Therefore it's different force spreads so I don't think you can compare them honestly
Harpreet Singh Toor, i believe you lost something in the translation. Torque is applied in the direction of travel. Only load forces changed would be to micro differences in manufacturing tolerances of the chain and sprocket as they mesh and/or wear.
CS still not field testing the actual shifter, not even seeing it fitted on... I am skeptical about the lateral strength of the cassette of the design will ever be applicable.
I envision that there will be too much flex in the rear cog plate near the outer edge due to lack of lateral support. The pressure from the drive bearings will skip out of the teeth due to the pressure.
My skepticism comes from two unanswered questions: how much torque can this system take; could it handle a huge sprint effort, or stomping on the pedals up an extremely steep hill? And how easy is it to swap out a flat in a race scenario. However, I don’t know that a big company like Specialized would go as far as they have with this collaboration if they didn’t think it had potential.
CeramicSpeed has worked very hard, and I believe is ready to join the hallowed ranks of innovations like Biopace, Lawwill Leader, The Ballfrog, and the saddle cozy. Okay, I made that last one up, but I am confident this company will wind up like Vaast bicycles.
I think it's a noble concept, but the wobble tolerances will be too tight for an exposed Chainring, and worse the forces being applied will be perpendicular the the drive train. The whole drive shaft, frame, BB, Hub, Chainring, and Cassette will need to be beefed up to handle these side forces, and even then I'm sure professional riders will be able to make this thing slip under power with only a few bearings engaged at each end. I suppose you could have a stiff spring mechanism pushing the drive shaft against the Cassette and ChainRing to deal with wobble, but again under load I'm betting it will slip, and then with so much side load everything will wear and break down very fast.
Inconel to the rescue. Hahaha. I joke because I completely agree with you -- too many of the forces appear to be perpendicular to the directions in which the materials can resist flex. It's cantilevers. I only see the shifting working at one point in each revolution where the cogs can line up, with some crazy synchronizer and lift/drop mechanism to not grind the driver bearing across one cog and into the next.
When you see a drivetrain look this much different, aerodynamic perspective is the least things to think of. All i concern was drivetrain efficiency in realworld and ease of maintenance and cost. That bearing look expensive to replace considering ceramic speed's reputation.
When you load up 3mm 7075 aluminium perpendicular to normal chain ie in the most likely to deflect orientation.you see it's Not going to happen unless you up the thickness weight or add a deflection stop.
Exactly my thoughts. This is a glorified bevel gear setup, which requires serious rigidity. There's no way that thinly machined aluminum cassette has anywhere near enough rigidity to prevent the very few rollers from skipping over teeth.
Jerry Giant it could be still going up in 0.000001 of a Newton or 1000 Newton’s tho could be anything so it’s meaningless with out the scale how can you know if it has any meaning what so ever
A bit like a formula one car, with so many intricate tiny moving bearings I wonder how long performance would last for. Never seen this bike even being ridden yet?? It just lives on a stand...great concept time will show.
While looking the thing, I was thinking “what if they just lose the chainring altogether and connect the crank directly to the driveshaft or have some mechanism connecting the bottom bracket to the driveshaft”. That would make the bike look super clean and save a bunch of weights too.
Very exited about this...BUT, I can totally see there being misalignment issues when the drive train is under heavy load and the frame twists. Even with a small amount of flex I can imagine the drivetrain having a "skipping" issue. The final version would probably look quite different to what we see today. Conclusion: Totally feasible with allot more investment.
i would not believe that the drive train could skip but the flex would definitively mess the contact point between the roller and the teeth making it really not efficient, that is one of the great things with chains they flex and contour around misalignment.
I'm fascinated to know how much torsional loss there is through the drive shaft twisting under load. Or how much loss transferring power between the front ring and shaft then shaft to rear sprocket, in Mike Burrows book Mike points out losses using bevel gears could be up to 6%. is the use of bearing instead of bevels so much more efficient?
Old news, Ceramic Speed is about to release their prototype hover bike - even more aero and no rolling resistance because it doesn’t have tires. It will revolutionize bicycles as we know it. Though please understand the press release will have the hover bike not hovering.
What about reversing the system, driving with the larger gear at the front? The front "sprocket" is already a SOLID piece, just add teeth as it's must more robust than the flimsy area in the back. Utilize a ring and pinion drive directly mounted to the rear axle and drive from the front versus the rear. Groove a hollow, ALUMINUM drive shaft (prop) versus carbon, incorporate tension springs at either end of the shaft and use the same current cable tech through a slip ring using a bearing to maneuver the gear change mechanism forward and aft. Splines through the prop shaft would mount to the gear change mechanism allowing full time contact. The system in this video is a very interesting idea...
@@b-manz It requires the cogs to be outrageously rigid, because it cantilevers the cog plate. It's the same with the crank. For a very small load, maybe. Another issue is the shifting, which would require either miraculous synchronization, and/or bearings that aren't shaped anything like the cartridge bearings they are showing. Otherwise they'd just jam against the next 'cog'.
I love the idea of it and love that people are trying to innovate in this area however I find it difficult to get excited about driven as they don’t currently appear to have a complete solution I.e. I method of switching from one gear to another. Once I see it ‘working’ I’ll be a lot more excited by it. For now it’s just a neat idea to me.
I'll buy this and proceed to getting destroyed in my local races by people riding aluminum bikes with aluminum box section wheels and 105 rim brake groupsets :D
Nothing but a vaporware hype machine to show how "innovative" the brand(s) are, but ultimately deliver something completely different to consumers or nothing at all. Ceramic Speed has been taking notes from Elon and Co.
I am developing a simplified version of an expanding chainring design, so innovation in bike transmissions continues. You can check out the last tester at ua-cam.com/video/QCudfsgUqD8/v-deo.html . Another test model should be able to be shown soon.
A chain on a rear cog is not just locked into 1 tooth, its wrapped around a series of teeth, and the way it wraps around ensures a good mechanical engagement. having a drivetrain engage at 90 degrees without any means of ensuring theres no flex may not hold up to the torque that a club rider can put out, let alone a pro...
I can't see that bearing club going through that rear meat grinder without some horrid noises and pieces flying around, that is the reason why they don't have a shifting mechanism "yet"! A smaller and lighter Pinion type of gear box with a road bike type shifting mechanism (which they don't have yet) seems the way to go, the concentration of masses under the rider would make a more nimble bike. That I would love to have.
There has been some innovation in drivetrains, but it has been more on the MTB side with things like the Pinion gear box and this is a shipping product that is on some bike already.
I think they need incredibly strong materials to avoid slips and skips from felxation and even breaks because all the energy transferred through a small area of material. I cant imagine aluminum as the cassette wheel, it would have to be some type of hardened steel. Something on he very high end of strength, shear and tensile. Assuming they solve this- i thnk they have a design that is desirable just because it eliminates a chain and gear casette.
Please get access to the bike at euro-bike show which now has the changing mechanism since this video was made. The design is impressive of the mechanism, mimicking a dual clutch approach to gear ⚙️ changes
Its still moving parts that are exposed, uncovered. We don't consider that as progress. For progress, we want to see mechanism that are enclosed, sealed, & waterproof, so that its dustproof, dirtproof, mudproof, debris proof, etc (like Pinion or Rohloff Internal Gear Hubs) but at the same time with good gear range and good gear efficiency (like cassettes & chains), and good low maintenance (like Gates carbon belt or Drive shaft rods). I guess good progress in technology not arrived yet.
I want to see it on and especially after a 100km road tour before i believe in it. These open bearings will block after a short time and the aluminium blade like "chain" ring will wear excessively in a short time. And i'm pretty sure, under hi torque (high wattage/workload) deformation will occur.
Did they compare it against a single speed, because that seems like the only fair thing to do until it has a shifting mechanism? While acknowledging the scepticism at the end, publications that have spent time on these claims kinda go down in my estimation. Otherwise love your work though.
looks to me if you tried to shift it under load it would quickly destroy itself. If there was a way to shift it to begin with. Still its good to see someone trying something new. I think cvt is the way to go tho.
Of course, you would use ceramic sealed bearings in an aerodynamically covered drive train, just what materials are used in the drivetrain would be the whole question. Just covering a conventional chain set in the same manner might create the same advantage. But creating a retail shaft driven groupo available in the market may be a way of introducing a new high tech mechanism that gets into UCI regulatory frameworks. For example, you’ll never drop a shaft on a rough, cobbled road such as Paris-Roubaix or the Champs Élysées. Or perhaps you’ll never drop a chain on a challenging climb, all of which happened in this year’s Tour. How did disc brakes begin to appear in UCI races when at one time it was considered preposterously absurd?
If it means I don't have to clean and lube my chain all the time I am all up for it...looks like it will be a few years from now until this comes with shifting and is working properly....
No, you don't have to clean and lube chain as there aren't any. Just need pushing out those bearing and clean it like how you repack the one in your wheel. And yes, reinstall it back too.🤣
Everything about this bike would have to be incredibly rigid. Even a small amount of flex could cause the bearings to disengage/jump the teeth. I would, however, love to see it work successfully. It has the potential to blow away any planetary gear or CVD transmission system out there.
When you look at the gear system for a bike and start trying to develop something new away from.the traditional chain and derraileur system it all gets a bit complicated due to the need to have gears and the science behind making an alternative. 1 able to withstand abuse 2. Performance capable. 3 actually work in the real world. I am totally stumped as to how anyone can make it better than it already is without drastically changing the fu damental frame design of the bike etc. It would probably end up looking like a Franken bike and we have seen many of those over the years. Tbh I like my bike as it is although having those new belt chains rather than metal I beleive is the way forward in that respect.
first of all the bike was freewheeling in all the video, secondly show me how this shifts, no point in being aerodynamic if you are stuck in 1 speed. Also put Sagan on it and see if it can take his sprint power
I'm just an amateur cyclist and I don't have en engineering degree but I feel safe to say this system is one gap too far. Take motorcycle for instance, they still have a chain or belt and a gearbox. And when it comes to motorcycle with a driveshaft, the gearbox is prior to the input shaft, not after it. I just don't see how CeramicSpeed could design a functioning drivetrain that could withstand the real road conditions.
I used to think, "man all this bike tech is so boring, it's all the same stuff with different branding/marketing, etc." But now there is something truly different and yet...I still find it terribly boring. What makes cycling interesting is the people, the athletes, the races, and the joy of riding around as an amateur and pushing your physical limits. Who cares about 000001% efficiency in a bike drive train that no normal person is going to be able to afford anyways.
Interesting that these comments are nearly all skeptical/negative. Classic response to innovation; bet there were largely similar reviews of Henry Ford's product.
William Bush Obviously you should invest in this product, since it's going to send chain-drive the way of the horse and buggy. You're a visionary. The rest of us are stupid.
Is this progress, or technology gone mad? Let us know what you think in the comments!
It’s innovation. Does it matter whether it’ll actually work? Nope, not at all. The process may discover something new or it may be a big fat waste of time. No technological leap forward happens magically - it’s an iterative process with many prototypes.
Im sure these will come with electronic shifting but my god is it ugly.
Marketing gone mad, not technology. It doesn't work, it wont work (ask an engineer if you know one) and it's far from new. There is a pretty long list of fatal flaws and problems (non fatal but still requires compramise) but none of the press do anything but give this positive air time. It's a dud.
oldbike.eu/1898-quadrant-chainless-light-roadster/
Doubt the system will handle sprinting loads, might work in a time trial application with more gradual force applied
In a sprint I doubt theres enough lateral stiffness in the rear disk to stop the bearings flexing it out the way and slipping
Andrew Wade thanks for the link to that it was great!
...no footage of a functioning drivetrain...hmmm
Do you think specialized are that dumb?
cause it isnt functioning. its just marketing.Next up? how to make flying cars more aero....
it's the most expensive Fixie ever made.
@@WtfUA-cam_YouSuck Let's not get ahead of ourselves, we haven't seen this ridden as a fixie either.
Open bearings, great idea ^^ By the way the efficiency on regular chain setups is about 97-98% at around 200-300 W. And as we all know wind tunnel testing is a huge marketing bs cause nobody has laminar airflow in real life conditions.
we need to get hambini on it to trash it hard
If you think that in a wind tunnel is laminar flow you don't know nothing about fluid mechanics
they should sell single speed first
At which point a belt drive sounds better to me. No complex and tight-tolerance machining requiring super alloys and exposed lubrication -- I look at that 'cassette' and think Inconel because the driver force appears to be treating the cassette like a cantilevered dinner plate being pushed into the spokes.
Or track!
Judging by those open bearings in both ends of the shaft, first time in the rain would completely destroy the drivetrain. Sure, you could use sealed bearings or completely weatherseal the shroud, but that would add drag that's not wanted in their "marginal gains" philosophy. Hmm. It is an interesting concept, but i don't think we're going to see this anytime soon in production (and knowing ceramicspeed's pricing, nobody would ever be able to afford one anyway lol).
if they used sealed bearing the efficiency will probably low than average chains... hahaha
Actually there is no shortage of middle aged dentists and accountants lining up right now hollering "take my money"! These folks buy a new bike when they get a flat tire.
Also, what if CeramicSpeed went to completely different direction and made a shrouded single speed version of that driveline and paired it with something like Pinion or Rohloff. Ultimate maintenance-free powertrain for those that have deep pockets? :P
This is actually an application where full ceramic bearings would be appropriate, since the bearings aren’t taking any big impacts. If they end up using full ceramic bearings (which they won’t), water and lubrication will basically be a non-issue.
@@newttella1043 don't make fun of the guys who can afford the newest tech. They pay for the initial R&D and manufacturing costs so the tech can "trickle down" later.
Why is everyone hating on this? It looks awesome. Sure there's a possibility that it won't add any benefit or even work. But so what? Let's just see where it goes. Even if it is a total success and destroys your aging derailleur, no one says that you need to use it.
It does look cool, but... it looks to me like the shaft driver (the circle of cartridge bearings) is trying to push the 'cassette' into the spokes, so the cassette would have to be insanely stiff (e.g. Inconel) to not flex, wear, and skip. I think the crank would have a similar issue. Shifting would either require the shaft driver bearings to be rounded like marbles to be able to slide into the next cog, or there would be some synchronizer AND some amazing lube that would let each cartridge bearing outer race slide nicely from one heavily loaded tooth to the next, or raise up and jump to the next without letting the wheel spin backward.
All this talk and we haven’t seen it work. Jumping the gun much ???
Louis Greenleaf true
it can't even shift gears. it's meaningless prototyping garbage
True there, all the video in youtube on this subject are all talk only
@@AdrianJNyaoi true. And I am starting to doubt this product
huroncyclist it's a prototype. They may use different ways to strengthen the cassette in the future, but we are just in the beginning
The thing is what it is: a well executed marketing gag.
They really should put this into production for the track first. Would really be able to test the products they have much sooner and to a better standard.
Ceramic speed : selling overpriced state of the art gadgets you don't need since 2004
@@atticushexcel9567 I know people with steel bikes that would make you puke your lungs out.
The world needs $500 jockey wheels!
@@atticushexcel9567 It's not about holding on to traditions, it's about using expensive technology but not gaining much. Ceramic gears have their place, but they are only useful for rpm's of 50k-150k. Things you'll see in industrial applications, but not on a bike. So go ahead, shell out hundreds of dollars, pounds or euros and gain 0,8% drivetrain efficiency. Meanwhile, the rest of us will focus on things that actually matter.
@@atticushexcel9567 I was going to buy a Shimano Dura Ace FC-7410 crankset - NOS square taper for £250 because it was a beautiful work of art. But my 30+ year old Lugged F Moser steel frame already has a NOS Shimano FC-7700 Dura Ace crankset. I have gone back to down tube shifters and non aero Ultegra brake levers. The Shimano Sante hubs on H Plus Son TB14s rims are smooth and make for an excellent wheelset. I'm also impressed with the Brooks B15 ti saddle as well.
Its fun dropping the occasional carbon superbicyle fellow on a retro 'Eroica' bicycle with the handlebar 'eye brows'. But it starting to get getting more difficult once you get past 50 years old.
@, thought I could see a Savanna RX3 nose cone. And was right. Cheers from Aotearoa NZ.
Spray with small stones from the front wheel will hit the cassette, will the bearings on the driveshaft be able to handle this ?
A convetional chain will flex up if there is anything between the chain and cassette.
Snake oil company baits more snake oil
sworks in a nutshell
I've been thinking of how to design this for years...well before Driven made its debut. The moving of the gears isn't too difficult if my mind, the major problem is: as you move between teeth in the back the gap between teeth becomes bigger and you essentially don't have multiple gears OR the path of the 'derailleur' does not follow a straight line radially and thus trying to mesh between gears as the 'derailleur' is moving across the plate becomes very tricky because a tooth is likely going to be in the way of where it is trying to move.
Unless the gap between each row of teeth is at least as great as the thickness of the bearing; though, in that case, you would be pedaling freely between every single shift. No shifting under power. Last time something similar happened to me, my face met pavement.
It is evident that the small wheels engaging the toothed crown-shaped cogs and spur have a sliding movement when they touch each other. Also, the contact point is very small, thinking about what power and torque any professional cyclist can put out.
The most absurd concern is that chainring is an old concept and should be considered obsolete, while upright bikes belong to an even older concept and an incredibly wide variety of recumbents have proven their aerodynamic advantage, far far more than what this device does.
Why did Specialized test this is good question indeed... But you know, 3D printers can put out extremely convincing mockups just in hours and with comparatively low cost, so in the endless effort to get 8 seconds out of 40 kilometers everything is worth testing...
My personal conviction percentage about this device is yet to crawl to 1%, for what a single opinion is worth.
I think its super exciting. Yeah yeah I'm reading the comments and it seems there are plenty of people who are sure of its demise. Maybe you guys are smart enough to understand the pitfalls of this system but to this simple bike rider it looks amazing! I'm sure if it ever comes to market I won't be able to afford it but hey I don't hate other tech I can't afford. If this is the direction drivetrains go someday in the future, I look forward to seeing them out on the road:)
I will get excited when I see one switch gears. And more excited if it still works when it's wet or if there is a little dirt kicking back into it. I am really skeptical about Ceramic Speed. But Specialized are for real so maybe...
This is really the first pure jurnalism item I have seen so far regarding this system. Enthusiastic but conservative.. So professional!
Ceramic speed: the kings of marketing
The gear change would be very complex - you cannot simply move the entire bearing wheel thingy down the driveshaft in one go while everything’s moving/under load. I think you’d have to split it into 2, moving the first half when it disengages with the cassette, then when that’s engaged on the target cog, you'd move the second half. Each movement would have to be synched with the driveshaft rotation and completed within just over half a turn of the drive shaft, which is going to be rotating at > 500 rpm or so at a high cadence. The overall gear change would also have to be synched with the position of the cassette as the 'handover' could only happen at a point where the teeth of each ring are suitably aligned. It’s not beyond the wit of humankind, but it won’t be cheap.
As someone else mentioned, the lateral stiffness of the 'cassette' is also something to be very skeptical about - especially on the outer row of teeth. There's very little contact area compared to a conventional chain, so slightest amount of flex in the cassette will cause skipping, and there will be a lot of lateral force on it.
I'd love to see it work, but until then it's neither progress nor technology gone mad - it's nothing more than an interesting idea.
This system will only work if all the parts have infinite stiffness. Since that is impossible, it's bound to fail. Really like the idea and the effort tho. Trying something new takes guts.
Even with perfect magical lateral stiffness this system still has two right angle bends that will cause inevitable loss of power. If we factor in real world material flex the system as pictured would skip even under moderate power.
Ceramic speed is well known for unfounded claims and there is probably a good reason why they have not shown this thing being ridden. What puzzles me is how they persuaded Specialized to put their brand on this scam.
...and knowing CeramicSpeed sale's model, i expect this drive train to cost about the same a an Italian sport car
It is likely that Specialized was commissioned to produce a modified frame and test it in their wind tunnel. They don't spend any of their own money, and their bike gets shown in all these articles and videos.
Specialized are getting publicity from it.
It is pointless though, even any amount of dirt would surely clog the system
It's not exactly like Specialized and their WinTunnel marketing are very different than CeramicSpeed...
I'm definitely not buying a specialized
I hope it works! I’m skeptical, because it would seem there would be a lot of side pressure, resulting in inefficiency, to maintain contact of components. Especially, back cassette pushing drive outwards. That’s just a crazy guess on my part.
I am amazed they are still working on this. Some quick research into motorcycle technology indicates that shaft driven power in motorcycles is substantially less efficient than chain driven power. Given that there is actually a lot of research and real examples of shaft driven power in motorcycles you would think that if they could rival the efficiency of chain driven then you would see it on motorbikes. I think once they actually engineer this to have similar reliability to a chain drive it would wind up being extremely inefficient to the extent that it is not practical for pedal bikes.
Old concept. Rather than transfer power over 5-12 teeth at all times,it's reduced to 2-5 teeth. Inefficient and very weak regarding durability.
filip000 where are you getting these numbers? Both chain systems and this shaft drive always engage one tooth at a time under load. Am I wrong?
@@ska042 Its just one to two teeth that do the heavy work.
UA-cam User, stand on the drive side-lock the front brake- put your foot on the crank and apply torque-try lifting the chain several links from 1st engaged link. You will see they are spreading the torque load.
True but the forces on a regular chained bike follows the biked direction and the concepts forced would move away from the bike on the right side. Therefore it's different force spreads so I don't think you can compare them honestly
Harpreet Singh Toor, i believe you lost something in the translation. Torque is applied in the direction of travel. Only load forces changed would be to micro differences in manufacturing tolerances of the chain and sprocket as they mesh and/or wear.
Innovation and ideas should always be celebrated
Dog House agreed but this is the Internet, so everyone’s taking the piss
CS still not field testing the actual shifter, not even seeing it fitted on... I am skeptical about the lateral strength of the cassette of the design will ever be applicable.
i am even more skeptical about how the flex in the frame would affect the gears alignment
Looks fantastic. We need innovation like this. I hope the design is successful.
Despite all the doubters, i'm really excited to see where this technology goes, good luck to them.
I envision that there will be too much flex in the rear cog plate near the outer edge due to lack of lateral support. The pressure from the drive bearings will skip out of the teeth due to the pressure.
Wake me up when they've figured out how to shift gears.
Phil Adams they claim that it can shift this year
@@wangfengfight Yes, but at a load of 100w only.
My skepticism comes from two unanswered questions: how much torque can this system take; could it handle a huge sprint effort, or stomping on the pedals up an extremely steep hill? And how easy is it to swap out a flat in a race scenario. However, I don’t know that a big company like Specialized would go as far as they have with this collaboration if they didn’t think it had potential.
CeramicSpeed has worked very hard, and I believe is ready to join the hallowed ranks of innovations like Biopace, Lawwill Leader, The Ballfrog, and the saddle cozy. Okay, I made that last one up, but I am confident this company will wind up like Vaast bicycles.
Is there any video showing gear changing ? I can't find any ..
Adrien i don’t see how it would work the different number of teeth means it won’t line up so you can’t just slide it along
3 years on, where it is now?
Yes, I agree. Innovation is important but in this area there's to many hurdles to overcome. Unfortunately I believe we're not there yet.
I think it's a noble concept, but the wobble tolerances will be too tight for an exposed Chainring, and worse the forces being applied will be perpendicular the the drive train. The whole drive shaft, frame, BB, Hub, Chainring, and Cassette will need to be beefed up to handle these side forces, and even then I'm sure professional riders will be able to make this thing slip under power with only a few bearings engaged at each end. I suppose you could have a stiff spring mechanism pushing the drive shaft against the Cassette and ChainRing to deal with wobble, but again under load I'm betting it will slip, and then with so much side load everything will wear and break down very fast.
Inconel to the rescue. Hahaha. I joke because I completely agree with you -- too many of the forces appear to be perpendicular to the directions in which the materials can resist flex. It's cantilevers. I only see the shifting working at one point in each revolution where the cogs can line up, with some crazy synchronizer and lift/drop mechanism to not grind the driver bearing across one cog and into the next.
I think, it's a very exciting technology. Potentially, a quantum leap in cycling tech.
When you see a drivetrain look this much different, aerodynamic perspective is the least things to think of. All i concern was drivetrain efficiency in realworld and ease of maintenance and cost. That bearing look expensive to replace considering ceramic speed's reputation.
When you load up 3mm 7075 aluminium perpendicular to normal chain ie in the most likely to deflect orientation.you see it's Not going to happen unless you up the thickness weight or add a deflection stop.
Exactly my thoughts. This is a glorified bevel gear setup, which requires serious rigidity. There's no way that thinly machined aluminum cassette has anywhere near enough rigidity to prevent the very few rollers from skipping over teeth.
3:19 - Hmm. No labels on the axis. Very suspicious.
coefficient drag area / m^2, it's a measure in basic aerodynamics.
Jerry Giant still needs a scale on there
@@elliottslab newtons maybe
Jerry Giant it could be still going up in 0.000001 of a Newton or 1000 Newton’s tho could be anything so it’s meaningless with out the scale how can you know if it has any meaning what so ever
There's a hidden axis labeled 'k$'.
TBH, since this tech derived, Ive never seen one vid about how this drivetrain shifting! To these day, Im still wondering how it works...
The driveshaft gies forward for a bigger gear and backwards for smaller, not mich else.
A bit like a formula one car, with so many intricate tiny moving bearings I wonder how long performance would last for. Never seen this bike even being ridden yet?? It just lives on a stand...great concept time will show.
While looking the thing, I was thinking “what if they just lose the chainring altogether and connect the crank directly to the driveshaft or have some mechanism connecting the bottom bracket to the driveshaft”. That would make the bike look super clean and save a bunch of weights too.
Looks like a super cool future for roadbikes.
Very exited about this...BUT, I can totally see there being misalignment issues when the drive train is under heavy load and the frame twists. Even with a small amount of flex I can imagine the drivetrain having a "skipping" issue. The final version would probably look quite different to what we see today. Conclusion: Totally feasible with allot more investment.
i would not believe that the drive train could skip but the flex would definitively mess the contact point between the roller and the teeth making it really not efficient, that is one of the great things with chains they flex and contour around misalignment.
Well done for trying but I reckon the chainring and brackets holding the shaft in place would need to be rigid beyond belief.
I would love to see a working prototype I can't give an opinion on something that for a lack of a better term isn't real.
I really like this host. Would've been nice to see the drivetrain in action
Still no fat rugby bloke putting it through it's paces. I smell perpetual-motion investor-trap snake-oil...
I'm fascinated to know how much torsional loss there is through the drive shaft twisting under load. Or how much loss transferring power between the front ring and shaft then shaft to rear sprocket, in Mike Burrows book Mike points out losses using bevel gears could be up to 6%. is the use of bearing instead of bevels so much more efficient?
Old news, Ceramic Speed is about to release their prototype hover bike - even more aero and no rolling resistance because it doesn’t have tires. It will revolutionize bicycles as we know it. Though please understand the press release will have the hover bike not hovering.
What about reversing the system, driving with the larger gear at the front? The front "sprocket" is already a SOLID piece, just add teeth as it's must more robust than the flimsy area in the back. Utilize a ring and pinion drive directly mounted to the rear axle and drive from the front versus the rear. Groove a hollow, ALUMINUM drive shaft (prop) versus carbon, incorporate tension springs at either end of the shaft and use the same current cable tech through a slip ring using a bearing to maneuver the gear change mechanism forward and aft. Splines through the prop shaft would mount to the gear change mechanism allowing full time contact. The system in this video is a very interesting idea...
SPOILER: Might look good in the Wind Tunnel, but this system will never work.
Your qualifications?
@@b-manz It requires the cogs to be outrageously rigid, because it cantilevers the cog plate. It's the same with the crank. For a very small load, maybe. Another issue is the shifting, which would require either miraculous synchronization, and/or bearings that aren't shaped anything like the cartridge bearings they are showing. Otherwise they'd just jam against the next 'cog'.
Dog House I am a graduated mechanichal engineer.
Joanet Montserrat I cannot wait for this to work and all you pessimists be forced to eat your words.
-a mech engineering student
Maybe we see it sooner in on the track than on the road
I love the idea of it and love that people are trying to innovate in this area however I find it difficult to get excited about driven as they don’t currently appear to have a complete solution I.e. I method of switching from one gear to another. Once I see it ‘working’ I’ll be a lot more excited by it. For now it’s just a neat idea to me.
Shouldn't the cranks be spinning when aero testing in the wind tunnel? This could have a large effect on the aerodynamics
With a rider on it introducing and interrupting their own flow.
I'll buy this and proceed to getting destroyed in my local races by people riding aluminum bikes with aluminum box section wheels and 105 rim brake groupsets :D
But 3% improvement, bro! 😄
Crank arms are not turning... thats why is more aero.
Nothing but a vaporware hype machine to show how "innovative" the brand(s) are, but ultimately deliver something completely different to consumers or nothing at all. Ceramic Speed has been taking notes from Elon and Co.
Elon? More like Apple
Perfect for fixed gear and track bikes 👌
It will need to be shrouded as it looks very susceptible to dust and dirt. And how much extra drag do you get if you add the shifting mechanism?
What's it like to sprint on? I mean those little roly bearings should be able to tolerate 1200 watts right. Easily as strong as a chain, right? IDK
I am developing a simplified version of an expanding chainring design, so innovation in bike transmissions continues. You can check out the last tester at ua-cam.com/video/QCudfsgUqD8/v-deo.html . Another test model should be able to be shown soon.
Everyone always forgets about the superman and the crouch position. the could have a Walmart bike in crouch and it would be faster.
How are you going to keep dirt off those bearings? Seems you need a drive train that has the abilty to flex some for torque and road conditions
A chain on a rear cog is not just locked into 1 tooth, its wrapped around a series of teeth, and the way it wraps around ensures a good mechanical engagement. having a drivetrain engage at 90 degrees without any means of ensuring theres no flex may not hold up to the torque that a club rider can put out, let alone a pro...
I can't see that bearing club going through that rear meat grinder without some horrid noises and pieces flying around, that is the reason why they don't have a shifting mechanism "yet"!
A smaller and lighter Pinion type of gear box with a road bike type shifting mechanism (which they don't have yet) seems the way to go, the concentration of masses under the rider would make a more nimble bike. That I would love to have.
There has been some innovation in drivetrains, but it has been more on the MTB side with things like the Pinion gear box and this is a shipping product that is on some bike already.
Too heavy for a road bike tho. Gokd stuff but not for max performance imo
I think they need incredibly strong materials to avoid slips and skips from felxation and even breaks because all the energy transferred through a small area of material. I cant imagine aluminum as the cassette wheel, it would have to be some type of hardened steel. Something on he very high end of strength, shear and tensile.
Assuming they solve this- i thnk they have a design that is desirable just because it eliminates a chain and gear casette.
Please get access to the bike at euro-bike show which now has the changing mechanism since this video was made. The design is impressive of the mechanism, mimicking a dual clutch approach to gear ⚙️ changes
Except it still doesn't work. Show us a demo bike. Give a reporter a test drive. Until then it's like the car that runs on water.
Its still moving parts that are exposed, uncovered. We don't consider that as progress.
For progress, we want to see mechanism that are enclosed, sealed, & waterproof, so that its dustproof, dirtproof, mudproof, debris proof, etc (like Pinion or Rohloff Internal Gear Hubs) but at the same time with good gear range and good gear efficiency (like cassettes & chains), and good low maintenance (like Gates carbon belt or Drive shaft rods).
I guess good progress in technology not arrived yet.
What percentage of drag on a moving road bike comes from the drive train? This has got to be less than 1-2%
I want to see it on and especially after a 100km road tour before i believe in it. These open bearings will block after a short time and the aluminium blade like "chain" ring will wear excessively in a short time. And i'm pretty sure, under hi torque (high wattage/workload) deformation will occur.
Did they compare it against a single speed, because that seems like the only fair thing to do until it has a shifting mechanism? While acknowledging the scepticism at the end, publications that have spent time on these claims kinda go down in my estimation. Otherwise love your work though.
looks to me if you tried to shift it under load it would quickly destroy itself. If there was a way to shift it to begin with. Still its good to see someone trying something new. I think cvt is the way to go tho.
Of course, you would use ceramic sealed bearings in an aerodynamically covered drive train, just what materials are used in the drivetrain would be the whole question. Just covering a conventional chain set in the same manner might create the same advantage. But creating a retail shaft driven groupo available in the market may be a way of introducing a new high tech mechanism that gets into UCI regulatory frameworks. For example, you’ll never drop a shaft on a rough, cobbled road such as Paris-Roubaix or the Champs Élysées. Or perhaps you’ll never drop a chain on a challenging climb, all of which happened in this year’s Tour. How did disc brakes begin to appear in UCI races when at one time it was considered preposterously absurd?
If it works - great. But it'll cost you at least both legs which will make it hard to pedal.
If they would be able to make a reliable version of this. Would it be uci legal?
How much these bycicle meen price... In india
Awesome! Similar to a car CVT transmission?
how is it even remotely similar. CVT in a car is functional for starters
If it means I don't have to clean and lube my chain all the time I am all up for it...looks like it will be a few years from now until this comes with shifting and is working properly....
Well, if they plan on leaving those open bearings.. even if are Zirconium ones, they're gonna pick up dirt and it's not going to be beautiful
No, you don't have to clean and lube chain as there aren't any. Just need pushing out those bearing and clean it like how you repack the one in your wheel. And yes, reinstall it back too.🤣
Everything about this bike would have to be incredibly rigid. Even a small amount of flex could cause the bearings to disengage/jump the teeth. I would, however, love to see it work successfully. It has the potential to blow away any planetary gear or CVD transmission system out there.
Looking forward to my next hyper efficient toy
When you look at the gear system for a bike and start trying to develop something new away from.the traditional chain and derraileur system it all gets a bit complicated due to the need to have gears and the science behind making an alternative. 1 able to withstand abuse 2. Performance capable. 3 actually work in the real world.
I am totally stumped as to how anyone can make it better than it already is without drastically changing the fu damental frame design of the bike etc.
It would probably end up looking like a Franken bike and we have seen many of those over the years.
Tbh I like my bike as it is although having those new belt chains rather than metal I beleive is the way forward in that respect.
first of all the bike was freewheeling in all the video, secondly show me how this shifts, no point in being aerodynamic if you are stuck in 1 speed. Also put Sagan on it and see if it can take his sprint power
I'm just an amateur cyclist and I don't have en engineering degree but I feel safe to say this system is one gap too far. Take motorcycle for instance, they still have a chain or belt and a gearbox. And when it comes to motorcycle with a driveshaft, the gearbox is prior to the input shaft, not after it. I just don't see how CeramicSpeed could design a functioning drivetrain that could withstand the real road conditions.
If this new technology were working, Peter Sagan would be doing wheelies on this Venge in front of the world's media.
Wheel is an incredible old concept. Time to go beyond, we need an hovercraft bike.
When will all these channels will start covering motorcycles?
I find the pessimism in this comment section absolutely disgraceful.
While efficiency is the goal, reliability should be the differential. I’ve always preferred a drive shaft design to a chain because of this.
Видно что Русскому человеку не привычно на инглише разговаривать)) но все же Обзор Достойный+++++
Okay now every rider will buy it and everyone will be a bit faster so nothing will change in the ranking 😀
I like the idea
This will soon become a 1h Record drivetrain.
How much power can it handle? Looks fragile
I used to think, "man all this bike tech is so boring, it's all the same stuff with different branding/marketing, etc." But now there is something truly different and yet...I still find it terribly boring. What makes cycling interesting is the people, the athletes, the races, and the joy of riding around as an amateur and pushing your physical limits. Who cares about 000001% efficiency in a bike drive train that no normal person is going to be able to afford anyways.
It's the future of cycling..Its only the start.
4 years passed but still nothing happened about this product only talk and talk
Interesting that these comments are nearly all skeptical/negative. Classic response to innovation; bet there were largely similar reviews of Henry Ford's product.
William Bush Obviously you should invest in this product, since it's going to send chain-drive the way of the horse and buggy. You're a visionary. The rest of us are stupid.
Something that might not be considered is crash survivability of the system