LS ATA INTERCOOLER TEST-IS BIGGER BETTER?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 11 січ 2020
- FULL RESULTS-INTERCOOLER UPGRADE. WHO WANTS EXTRA HP AND BOOST? Intercoolers do more than just cool! The more Flow, the more GO! Check out the power gains offered by an intercooler upgrade on a supercharged 427 LSX motor. We ran the Procharger D1SC with the standard Air-to-Air intercooler then again after installation of the larger (high-flow) cooler upgrade. How much did it help?
- Авто та транспорт
Great work, I appreciate all of the effort you are taking to spread best practices to make more horsepower. Keep up the videos they make my day!
These facts were in my head but unable to play with theory's I was uncertain. Thanks for this demo...
Changing up to the larger inter cooler will also do another thing, the larger volume of the inter cooler is still dealing with approximately the same volume of charge air, so this then allows the charge air to slow down through the inter cooler as it passes through it and that gives it more time to transfer heat and become cooler and more dense
Exactly, smaller piping would still provide flow. Its about surface area and time the air actually makes contact with that surface area.
Again thank you . One of your best sir. Very informative not boring in presentation.
every single video... im learning... ive been waiting on this stuff for YEARS
Thanks Rich this is the exact test I was after!
Would be great to see data for pressure drop through the inter cooler. Temperature drop also.
I agree. Wanted to see the charge temps, after intercooler and/or in manifold
Same here
temp was 235 in and 115 out
yeah but on both cores
Yes if you could, both pressure and temp drop in each case. Thank you.
I've watch Gale Banks make the same claim but this is the first time I've seen it tested. Again, excellent work sir.
AWESOME video! I get the impression that many fail to understand the importance of always shooting for the lowest IAT possible. I believe that it is of critical importance even in NA applications. Throw in FI and the attention to design and function of aftercooling has to be addressed period. Your video provides the end results wonderfully. I would love to see the data responsible for the HUGE HP increases. Like IAT pre and post intercooler as well as pressure loss across the intercooler. I would also be interested in the charge air volume differential measured at or near the throttle body. COOL stuff. Thank you for publishing!
very little change in IATs-it's mostly flow on this test-If we had an air meter on the blower-we'd see an increase in airflow after the drop in (pre-cooler) pressure which resulted in an increase in post cooler pressure and flow
Loving this channel!
Yes the pipe size is part of it. Ford 326 1000hp build. Had a 4" thick core with 3" piping and in/outlet. Welded on a 3.5 outlet and ran 3.5 to tb and picked over 50hp and 35tq, same intercooler.
how much boost it was ? i am also near 1000 hp using 4 inch intercooler with 3 inch inlet and outlet , do you think it is better to change the whole piping or after intercooler is enough ?
Thanks for sharing. Good data.
Another great video
Love all the information. Could you show the air inlet temperature on the graphs too? That could be interesting.
You should test those Tiny eBay intercoolers everybody runs on Mustangs versus a killer one
jtdandnme that would be nice to see!
Shiit my friend runs a little baby honda intercooler to cool his s475 to his 6.0. I always make fun of it whenever i can. I had to cut so much to fit my 4" core and he just slapped that POS in
Now I wanna see a bunch of different tests! I have a cx racing 4” core with 3” outlets and 3” pro charger core with 3” outlets! Also maybe a charge pipe size test . But with there s480 turbo.
@@leroyt2590 haha mines an xspower which is same as cx as far as ebay quality goes lol. A direct size comparison vs name brand like garrett or procharger core would be cool too
Berserka Saurus exactly! Also include inlet and outlet temperatures and pressures before and after the intercoolers would be cool to see!
Merry Christmas Richard! Great Video’s, keep them coming. The only problem with this test that I see is; even if you have the Upgraded Race Intercooler, some of the Tubing size varies from 3”-3 1/2”. At least that is how it is on my set up with the upgraded Race Intercooler. It would be nice to see the same test with similar Procharger set ups that have unfortunately some Tubing only 3” and other Tubing 3 1/2” with the Race Intercooler.
3-inch before the cooler would be less restrictive than 3 inch after the cooler-but the same size tubing throughout after the blower is best
Love the info u have been putting out with ur vids!! Better video equipment/quality and u should gain even more subs! U got my respect and subscription 🤘
I appreciate all of the content you have been putting out recently!! I think it would be intersting if you test the btr 388 plus C.I.D. turbo cam in a lq4 or something along those lines and see how it performs.
I've run a lot of Brian's cams-not familiar with that one
@@richardholdener1727 its got pretty healthy specs. 243 int./251 exh. Duration, 0.627 in./0.632 in. Lift, 117+5 LSA
both are helping
One of your best yet. I really enjoyed hearing your opinion throughout it, why do you think the engine didn't make as much as u expected NA? Also, don't store that one in the corner somewhere in plastic, put it in my pickup.
Good test. Would have been good to see pressure readings either side of the cooler.
What static compression did this engine have? N/A power peaking at 6100, something is wrong with that combo but it doesn't change the validity your test. Great information! Thanks for the effort and resources you put into these videos. Wish I could give more thumbs
I was taught to use the biggest cooler your budget and space will allow. It would be interesting to know the delta for both of those coolers.
Richard I'm in the process of doing the same thing. I had bought a Treadstone A to A intercooler rated at 2000HP. Rated at 2 lb drop at 2000cfm. The IC had 3" in and outlet. I modified the unit and put 3.5" in and outlets. With no intercooler vs with intercooler, there was a 10 lb difference in boost seen in the manifold. I just ordered the Procharger 1550HP rated A to A IC with 4" in and outlets. I'm hoping to see 6 or 7 lb increase in boost in the manifold. The SC is a F3-D106 with a 1000cfm QF 4150 carb that I made. So far 1350HP at the wheels with 25 lb boost in the manifold. Camshaft is a little small with 262I/270E @ 0.050". So hoping to see 30 lbs of boost. My Camaro should dip into the 4.70s in the 1/8 mile. Boost is fun! Keep up the great videos.
Hey bud. Any updates on the how'd it go after you ditched the threadstone? I just grabbed a treadstone intercooler, the tr1245r rated for 1340hp. While my supercharger is only capable of around 1450cfm, thought having the extra headroom wouldn't hurt but now I'm worried based on your experience with threadstone
The Procharger IC I bought is far superior to the Treadstone.
On a propane fuelled engine using the inter cooler to pre heat the fuel would be something to see!
I would like to see you retest the meth injection vs intercooler but with a sheet metal intake,or a Holley hi ram
Loving the videos Richard but they're missing one thing, video of the dyno run. Come on man that's the best part!!
I agree-
It also has to fit in your car. Us corvette guys have a hard time fitting an adequate intercooler up front. I gained substantial power removing mine and adding water injection.
Suggestion for future videos, use a capture card on the video output of the dyno PC. That way there is no quality issues, the light reflection off the screen is so bad you can see the lights flickering.
both make a difference
I would like to see the difference between these two and a water to air sandwich intercooler
Gotcha. Thanks
Omg would love to see all the specs to recreate this engine/supercharger build! Wow and im more of a ford guy just wow! And what fuel was used to achieve the highest numbers?
It would be nice to see if the size of the pipe running to the intercooler and from the intercooler to the intake makes a difference in power
The big core woke it up. Gave it mid-range. Wow
It would be interesting to see 3.5 inch piping with using the 3 inch intercooler.
He did
I'm on D1sc on an LS3 at 14 psi with a 3.6" pulley. What pulley size did you use? I have the 3 inch intercooler and under extended runs the intake temps can get close to 150F. Looks like I need to go to the 3.5" setup and larger intercooler!
It would be nice to see the difference the larger piping increased power and boost. I actually had to downsize to the Standard from Race Intercooler because Irt was blocking to much air flow to the Trans Cooler and Radiator. I think it would be a fairly simple test to have the same Intercooler but different piping size to see what really makes more Boost and power. Thanks for the great videos!
it is the cooler
You may be correct and it might be the Intercooler, but I notice the same intake Temperatures between both the Standard and the Race Upgraded Intercooler
Richard talking about NA power is how i feel when anyone talks to me about their combo that's NA. Im like oh that's cool....im so interested..... Lmao
Thanks for another great video. It made more hp per pound of manifold pressure on the higher hp run... its like 20 hp/50% more than expected for the added boost. Were the IAT'S significantly lower with the thicker intercooler? Or was the reason for for the low initial numbers due to ring seal and were starting to see ring seal improve by the last run? On an intercooler test, would like to see IAT and pressure drop data before and after the intercooler for each test. This would have been a perfect test to completely remove the intercooler and see the actual effect.
the temp drop was almost the same for both cores-it was just increased flow-235-115 degrees
I'd like to see how effective cooling the intake charge is with NO forced induction. Of course, to be effective, your cooling would have to take it below ambient. We've all heard the 5F=1% rule. But does it hold true when you're dropping the air temps below ambient? How cold can you get it, and still get power gains? Can something like liquid nitrogen be used across a heat exchanger to accomplish the same effect as a compressor?
Would also like to see a silly test....of just adding 90deg couplers together until power is impacted. How bad does pipework need to be to affect performance ?
With HVAC systems, every 90deg fitting is the equivalent of 100' of straight pipe
Please consider testing oem air to water intercooler vs aftermarket air to water intercooler vs oem & aftermarket plumbed in series. I am of the mindset that removing the oem cooler is a mistake and that supplementing with an aftermarket is the way to go. TY again for your informative videos.
what OEM ATW? on a roots blower? LS9 or LSA?
@@richardholdener1727 LSA preferably a CTS-V and thank you in advance for your due consideration.
Respectful Regards from Texas
I would love to see what the difference between 3 inch and 3 1/2 inch piping would make really appreciate all your time
I think he did this or it might be exhaust I'm not super sure but you can check the vids
I’ve back to back tested 2,2.5,3 inch piping on a 300hp sr and bigger was better in response,hp and temperature drops. Also going to a 4 inch core vs 3 inch in 300x600 dropped boost pressure but held the same power so bigger is better in pretty much every scenario considering my testing was on 300hp
I believe this guys reply answers the Tubing question:
S&H Performance
3 years ago
Yes the pipe size is part of it. Ford 326 1000hp build. Had a 4" thick core with 3" piping and in/outlet. Welded on a 3.5 outlet and ran 3.5 to tb and picked over 50hp and 35tq, same intercooler.
But I still don’t understand why the Boost went up and not down. I also wonder what the Temp difference would be if you just increased the Boost with the smaller intercooler? Maybe the Larger intercooler is actually a restriction
boost measured in the intake manifold went up because the small intercooler was a restriction between the turbo and intake
can you do 100% methanol no ic vs intercooler
Agreed, everyone says, You don't need an intercooler for methanol", while that may be true from a detonation standpoint, intercooling ALWAYS adds power through density!
Cheap Intentions this was actually done on engine masters with the help of Richard. If I remembered right the engine was fine with methanol at low boost, but a problem arose with unequal temperature across cylinders. The test was done on an ls motor with an efi manifold so the meth was not able to flow evenly across all cylinders, leading to less power at equal boost when compared to an inter cooled set up.
@@rssjramon I think you are talking about an auxiliary meth kit vs the OP meaning primary meth...
@@700HpVette you're right idk why my mind skipped over the 100% meth part
Great videos as always. But you should have kept the same 3” Tubing on both tests to see if just the Larger IC made more Power than the standard intercooler. Just Say’n
no
5.3TT project. Been wondering if theres suck a thing as too much intercooler? Like would it delay the boost response? /how badly? I imagine the turbo bearing type and peak psi would play a role in that also...
not really an issue with too much cooler or cooling-its usually a space/fitment thing
Yes I would like to see the difference between a rear mounted Turbo System like one by the muffler and a front mount like one by the motor the Boost curve and when the power comes on what would be the big difference
that's easier to show on the chassis dyno or street-the engine dyno artificially improves the boost response with a heavy, stationary load
Would longer piping similar to what you did with your compound Turbo System maybe slightly longer ( 6 feet long) or so.Be an adequate tests compared to some of the other ones that you have done straight off the exhaust manifold . (just a thought thank you for your time)
When are you going to do some sbf stuff?
But what pulley combo did you run?? that blower pulley looks pretty large.. what was the impeller RPM?
Again, always good informative videos. Maybe you can explain to me why the Boost went Up and not Down with the Larger intercooler. Since the Larger intercooler was less restrictive and flowed better I can understand the Power increase but I would think that the Boost would go down, just with a less restrictive or better flowing Engine?
the smaller intercooler was a restriction between the blower and intake (where the boost was measured). We eliminated the restriction with a bigger cooler and the boost in the manifold went up as it should
What's the different core part numbers ??
How about a comparison between a similar sized air-air vs water-air intercooling?
I did that test too
I have a 72 Ford bronco with a Ford racing crate 302/5.0 intended for 1995 cobra replacement. It puts out 340 hp, but I'd like to buy 500. The compression and bottom end is stock as t 9:1 so super or turbocharging seems easiest way to Increase power. It has gt40 heads, . .495 cam, and roller top end. Also has Edelbrock intake and750 or 650 carb. What's your advice to hit my goal of 500 hp as cheaply as possible? I see turbos on ebay for 200$. Are those total crap or worthy?
I need that motor in my C6 Corvette.
Hello Richard, Great job.
Is it possible to see the intake tmperature between each test?
Almost injector flow calculator said: 1000 hp => 150 lb injector flow. You used 89lb on dyno. Can you said me the max injector duty cycle during testing? thank's you
temps were 235 into core and 115 in the intake, your injector math is not accurate, we had boost referenced reg and 60 psi static pressure. Run at .5 bsfc (NA), the 89-pound inj will support 178 hp per cylinder (89x2) and 1424 hp total. The BSFC on an NA LS motor is much better than .5. If we factor in the added fuel for the boosted application (multiply by .85) we get over 1200 hp. Quick method-multiply inj flow in lbs/hr by 16-that tells you power potential. Multiply that number by .85 to get boosted power potential.
@@richardholdener1727 thank's for your answer because it's difficult to have the right information. bigger is better but you can have problem on idle with min injector pulse.
7:04 The boost level went up to 10.7 PSI with a better flowing intercooler and piping? Is this measured at the intake manifold or at the supercharger output?
YES-THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU REDUCE THE RESTRICTION (MEASURED IN THE MANIFOLD)
I’ve back to back tested 2,2.5,3 inch piping on a 300hp sr and bigger was better in response,hp and temperature drops. Also going to a 4 inch core vs 3 inch in 300x600 dropped boost pressure but held the same power so bigger is better in pretty much every scenario considering my testing was on 300hp
Great stuff Richard!! Was the temp reduction basically the same through both ICs? That might also have something to do with the results, since the 2nd core had more mass to absorb heat out of the charge air.
@@bigboreracing356 Did he say that in the video? I was wondering if he mentioned it somewhere along the way and I missed it.
@@bigboreracing356 good chance he has the data, I'm curious to know the magnitude of the difference.
the temp in the intake manifold was very similar for both cores
@@richardholdener1727 Thank you!
Richard, what were the differences between the IAT's of the two coolers?
That's what I kept waiting to see but he never talked about that 🤦♂️
@@logut80 his hands keep distracting himself! LOL
it was 235 going into core and 115 out
Does a big intercooler cause lag at lower rpm?
Pressure drop in intercooler, temp. Drop, and back pressure would be interesting.
I'm pretty sure after intercooler tubing don't need to be bigger than before intercooler tubing.
Air volume reduces.
450 max velocity in the pipes. You just proved you were hitting it.
Richard Holdener
Ide say its both , more cfm is the name of the game making a cooler denser air.
This was air to air? Which is the best; air to ice water? Can one buy a cheap eBay turbo, slap an intercooler on it it, change the pulley and get huge gains likr this?
Lets see and efficiency test on intercoolers that would fit in same space at the front of a car. Long intercoolers versus short wide intercoolers like the ones in this video, I read years ago it was better to do short fat and slow the air down to give it more time to cool than it have it flow fast but be in the intercooler over a longer distance. I've never tested it out though.
It would be nice to know/see the temps after cooling between the coolers
Yes I know that but how much did the bigger cooler lower IAT’S
temp was 235 in and 115 out
Guys should understand also that the intercoolers you tested are vertical flow...substantially better than the other for the same footprint.
How does water methanol perform with the S/C and the inner cooler
its not ideal on a long runner intake
Richard have you watched much of gale banks talking about intercoolers? Talk about a man with some serious knowledge.
Yes-I know Gale-he is a legend
@@richardholdener1727 this was an awesome test because alot of guys go with the upgraded cooler without knowing if there was a real difference
Curious if the increased power was only due to extra cooling, and if so, then how cool can we make it?
Also, I am assuming that the boost was measured AFTER the aftercooler.
It would be interesting to see the boost before and after the aftercooler.
MORE BOOST
@@richardholdener1727 Yup, now that I think of it, that guarantees that it was measured AFTER the cooler, because this ain't a turbocharger so no change in relative speed between engine and compressor ever happened.
I wonder how the engine would have behaved with TWO of the big cooler. :D
Just curious, you said that the fall off of boost with the big intercooler was probably due to the supercharger being close to its limit, but you didn't say whether you had the smallest pulley on it either, unless I missed it.
P.S. I enjoy the videos!
In this case-The pulley size has nothing to do with the flow limit of the blower-the blower will support only a given amount of airflow-if we change the pulley-that will just happen earlier in the rpm range
Was I just seeing things or did that larger IC loose alot of torque and HP at say 3-5500 rpms?
it picked up power everywhere-you might be confusing the HP and tq curves
Richard!!!! I know you love efi. What do you think of a blow through methanol carb system vs efi with intercooler??
I like intercoolers on every boosted motor-even blow through carbs
On a race only engine on e85 and meth injection. Water to air or air to air?
I’m trying to make a solid 1,000rwhp from my ‘16 mustang GT under 8k RPM. TVS Superchargers are out and I’m considering either a D1x procharger or a 3.6L Kenne Bell, do you have a suggestion? (Street car no competition to care about)
The 3.6L KB will support a LOT more power than the TVS. Procharger has blowers that will make more too-for a street car-any of them will do 1,000 wheel
@@richardholdener1727 Do you think the extra heat from the Kenne Bell is really an issue?Thanks for the replies.
the boost increase is strange. I wasn't expecting that. I've seen on roots blowers when running a bigger efficient cooler decreases the boost!?
It's not strange at all. If you remove a huge restriction, it allows more air into the engine ( so the engine is then the restriction )...hence more boost
Richard, what is the compression of this motor?
near 11
Plz show running the engine more plz
To clarify, were all 3 dyno tests performed with a BTR stage IV NA grind cam?
we did not change the cam-same for all
@@richardholdener1727 thanks for the info. While it wasn't the goal of your video, I've always been interested in seeing documented results of an NA camshaft grind with a procharger setup. Love the technical content, keep it up!
Boost is just a number, what gain was had in the Temp/Density numbers?
Gale Banks 101
Gale Banks, dat u?
Not entirely, you have to take pressure drop across cooler into account as with restriction comes reduction in flow rate so it can result in good heat transfer but lower flow results in less pressure valve side, this is because lower flow rate thru cooler allows for more heat transfer but lower mass, so after cooler temps can be misleading without looking at all data, low power diagnosis 101, variables like duration of load and where boost reference for waste gate taken from and does turbo go into surge etc
i wonder what the difference is non intercooled with timing and fuel optimized vs the other two. i have read it’s approximately 1% power output for every 10°f change in air temp. Would you say that’s a somewhat accurate formula? I’m just curios how accurate that is. Absolutely love the videos man. would be neat to see what the supercharger would make for power without an intercooler as well.
That formula is not universally accurate-the gains are a bell curve-where the formula is accurate in the normal temp ranges-but less so at the extremes (a lot like the % gain from compression)
Richard Holdener thank you.
Richard Holdener the boost curve would be interesting info without intercooler. just to see the difference of restriction from the two intercooleers vs just charge tubing. Man I don’t think I would ever leave that Dyno chamber. LOL. I would want to run 14 million different tests on everything. it’s so interesting.!! so much info. thanks for doing what you do👍
Dig the shirt!
Do some eBay water Intercooler test from iats,psi drop and most of all gains over an expensive one or name brand at least.
Who makes the better air to air Intercooler? Garrett or Procharger? Will be installing one on a 77 c10 5.3 LS turbo swap.
Well what in the hell kinda intercooler did you get?
Why was the temp changes in intercoolers? Any?
minimal difference
I'd like to see this test on a stock motor. To see if upgrading the ic is really worth it. Also that way the flow of the supercharger isn't at question
it would not be at the power output of the stock motor
If say that depends on what a person is doingoing with it. If your running stock in an endurance environment upgrading all cooling systems can be a bonus.
US highway department says the average grade is 3%, so in order to pass testing that's all the vehicle is required to climb without issues. In reality grades as much as 6% are normal up to 10 miles long. Yes my example is more of the diesel commercial side of automotive, however the same types of testing are done. So if your going to push the vehicle past it's testing parameters then it stands to reason that the cooling components may not be ideal.
Was any of the power difference had to do with the bigger intercooler piping?
That was exactly what I thought .
I think the idea is that the core of the intercooler is the greatest restriction, there would be an increase by the pipes but I don't think larger pipe work to the first intercooler would make much difference as the greatest restriction is the core. And vice versa the smaller pipes to the second intercooler would still flow better because the core is still the greatest restriction.
I’ve back to back tested 2,2.5,3 inch piping on a 300hp sr and bigger was better in response,hp and temperature drops. Also going to a 4 inch core vs 3 inch in 300x600 dropped boost pressure but held the same power so bigger is better in pretty much every scenario considering my testing was on 300hp
What would happen if you chilled the fuel going in.
It's efi so probably not much.
I would have thought the larger area in the larger cooler would have decreased boost/resistance but increase oxygen in the air charge.
Got to remember the thicker the core the more you affect the radiator. High water temperature can pull timing. And kill power
Most radiators have far more than enough capacity to handle the car's waste heat while moving through the air.
I’m curious what happens if you put a cooler that’s too large for the turbo what would happen?
I was actually thinking this too. When would the size be too big? I'd like to too see one with a 4 or 5 inch tubing and huge intercooler
Almost no such thing. You can pick up a little lag. But unless your doing something just dumb (like a 6” thick core that is 40” long and 36” high) it’s almost impossible to over intercool. Maybe with a pro charger it’s a thing. But with turbos, it’s never too big.
My fiesta ST see’s 30psi daily, but it has the same size intercooler as my 725whp turbo LS fox. My SRT4 picked up huge gains on the bottom end, mid range, and top end by going to a 4” thick core. The fiesta did pick up some lag, but it sees a 7-8 degree charge temp rise from 0-130mph at 30psi.
bigger is better with intercoolers-it usually comes down to space
Any suspicions as to why this engine quit at 6100 N/A? I expected that combo to make peak closer to 7000 and certainly above 6500. With great heads, long tubes, and a big cam could it be that intake?
Headers I reckon.... i think the primaries are a bit small
Mostly that fast intake manifold.
It was an MSD
Headers were 1 7/8-plenty big-we run these on lots of stuff-including 495-inch strokers
@@richardholdener1727 you know better mate....
I wasn't sure but I suppose how the dyno curves show the story
UA-cam's off the hook with these commercials they're determined shove commercials down your throat to make their money remember back in the day where you can skip commercials
''ad block plus'' works a treat and is free
What would happen if you just increased the intercooler pipe from 3 inches from the intercooler to the engine to 3.5 inches. Providing you also increase the hole in the intercooler to match the increase in pipe diameter. I had a 3lb restriction, 15 lb before intercooler 12 lb after. I'm doing this modification right now and will report back soon...I hope HA!
Ok I'm back, I finished the intercooler modification increasing the pipe size from 3 to 3.5 inches to carburetor. It's at 15 lbs. Going into the intercooler and had 12lbs. Coming out. Now have 15lbs. Going in and 14lbs. coming out so gained 2lbs. press with modification. That 2 lbs. made a big difference, feels like 50 hp. I have pics of all work.
Why 89 lb injectors on almost every build?
On the NA baseline, a ram style intake would of woke that LSX long block up most likely another 50 to 75 HP....
I ran other intakes-its not 75 hp
That's crazy
Why there's so much difference in gains in a v8 with fmic and a 4cil with same 3" fmic?? My 1.8t with tune, 3" downpipe and 3" fmic just give me a 62hp gain from 225 to 287hp.
something else changed besides the core-probably the boost-I've run a few of 1.8T motors
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks for the input, lots of learning in your videos, excellent work, just don't forget about us the 4cil dudes hehe