small correction for the area of flow vs temperature drop mentioned @7min the heat energy dissipated is corelated with the core volume , and not the length. The same IC used on the example could be used with higher boost and hotter air, and would be cooled by the same delta T as lower boost (actually higher T inlets gets cooled by higher delta T). it is about mass flow, and heat energy and not the psi in the cooler. Simply put, short path with large cross section area is more efficient, and less restricting than the opposite. It becomes a diminishing return when the flow through the core becomes to slow to utilize the full core volume and than we have dual, triple pass radiators.
Funny how we had comments about this almost in one of the past Infiniti Red Sport videos. I like informative videos even if I know the concepts. More of this.
This was fascinating, thanks! The intro, with the insane monster HP cars had me worried that I was in the wrong spot for my application, but the information supplied was terrific! I have a '77 Datsun 620 that I'm doing a full restoration on + KA24DET motor build and I absolutely refuse to have some ridiculous FMIC ruining the lines of the front of this truck, so here I am, researching air-to-water intercoolers both for their size and efficiency!
Love this content, info that you don’t hear summarized like this anywhere else. I’ll definitely need that extra capacity out here in Las Vegas with the 2023 Z’s air to water setup
Great video! My buddy Jackie has been talking the Supra intake manifold up and I think that might be the next upgrade. By the way, Jacob did my tune last year and it’s absolutely fantastic!
Thanks for this insightful knowledgeable video! I live in Sydney Australia, and we are a big mouth intercooler country, but to explain the benefits of air to water intercooler, well that was impressive
Very informative. I've got both a Q50RS and a GT-R. Both have your intercooler/Heat Exchangers. Q was tuned by Jacob. Oh, both have 'Alpha' intakes too. Thanks for your excellent products.
@@johninnh4880 I'm picking up my Q on Tuesday with the Pure turbos so I'm really hoping they figured the issue out. Really sorry to hear you had so much trouble with your upgrade. How's the Q running now?
@@johninnh4880 Good news is I know ~10 other Q owners that have gone down the Pure turbo upgrade and they haven't had issues yet (knock on wood). I'm hoping Pure has fixed the issue!
no mention of Air Density (the import part) 20psi @ 180f into FMIC but 19psi @ 100f coming out but the air density is much higher so even if it dropped to 15psi would still make more power than 20psi. Much like how a big turbo can make say 500hp @ 10psi , while on same engine a smaller turbo at even 30psi might only make 400hp. Its all about air density not pressure.
I’ve always wondered why manufacturers never considered running refrigerant through water to air intercoolers. A similar method is being done with PS fluid being used to not only assist in steering but also braking.
Question with the psi drop on air to air intercooler. Does the air mass or density consumed pre intercooler actually go down with the increase of intercooler size? I figured the psi drop over the hot to cold side came from the extra fill requirement.
Great video. To drive the importance of intercooling home, go watch Banks' killing a Duramax series. Increased intercooling efficiency and effectiveness equals denser air, equals more power. Banks will show you that an increase in cooling the charged air adds as much or more power than adding a bigger or second turbo. I see a lot of diesel truck folks going for twin turbos but they still run A2A intercooling 😂 On a tow/haul truck, heavy loads up the hills and steep grades means the truck wants to slow down both up and down the hill, and getting started from standstill is a strain on the engine. At all these crucial times, u got little to no airflow at the grille, except maybe the fan. Introducing water to the equation allows for unlocking response and power when you need it the most. I would opt for a W2A cooler in line just before the stock A2A cooler, OR remove the giant stock cooler altogether and replace that space with a large radiator for cooling the W2A fluid. Get rid of the mechanical clutch fan and shroud which hog like 2 feet of space in front the engine. Get some good electric radiator fans rigged on temp switches and relays like they sell in kits or add a digital controller if u wanna get fancy. Davies craig makes fancy elec water pumps and digital controllers. The pumps are actually pwm motor controlled to vary the impeller speed. U can use them for intercooling and/or for the engine coolant if u want to delete the mechanical OEM water pump. But I'd surely go for a customized W2A setup, with some good sophistication before I consider doubling the turbos on a diesel truck
Don't forget that cooler air will naturally have a lower pressure too, it's not only the restrictions of the intercooler that cause the lower boost psi.
Yeahhh that's something they didn't mention, yes you lose boost pressure but that's because it's denser air. The same amount of air in weight is flowing through. The intercooler restriction isn't that much.
Have y'all at AMS found out any information regarding what causes the porus block issue for the q50/q60's? I love the car, but the thought of replacing a motor multiple times is obviously a little concerning.
This is dope and very good tech. I would have liked to see his take on air to air intercoolers with external water sprayers and Co2 chilling tubes. Are they just Band-Aids for proper intercoolers?
External water sprayers have been shown to help cool the air to air, but at that point your always spraying water. Unless you mean spraying the water once you see a spike in iat's the sure but its a budget way to help reduce iat's. Co2 chilling tubes is a difficult thing to integrate if you are talking about the air to water. Although killer chiller/power chiller are products that actually address the issues with heat soak in the air to water side of things. Take a look at those products they are really cool, however they require a fully working ac system.
I own WTA intercooler. Most people don't even know how this system works. Everyone thought that it takes the water from the engine radiator and they were laughing on me. Fun fact is that i own a Celica st205 with stock WTA Chargecooler and i had 300whp on 16-17 psi. I had stable results and same inlet temps with ATA on road, others need moee than 18 PSI to reach 300whp with air to air intercooler. Also In busy roads and towns WTA is way better I've seen it I tested it and i will never change it to ATA intercooler.
I know about the Hellcat's party trick of stealing some A/C air occasionally, but have you guys experimented with an air to refrigerant system instead of air to water? Obviously more complex, but the temptation of having below ambient intake air (summer time/ hot climate) at all times on the street seems hard to not think about.
That does sound like a good idea only thing id be worried is that poor ac comp 😂 especially with a constant load of hot air unless it’s a beefy compressor someone needs to try this 😂
Very cool vid. If I hit the lottery, I'd come work for you guys for free just to learn cool stuff...you guys do all the awesome stuff with all the best cars.
I feel like the pressure drop is less so from the constriction, which shouldn’t decrease pressure but actually increase (less volume increases fluid speed and pressure this is partially how air conditioners work). The pressure decrease comes from the cooling factor of the intercooler itself. Pressure and temperature correlate. This is known as Gay-Lussacs law, or the pressure-temperature relationship. If the volume increases, the pressure and temperature decreases, via thermal expansion, and the air slows down. If the volume stays the same, but temperature decreases, pressure then decreases at a proportional inverse rate and vice versa.
Hey guys, I own an Audi RS5 and there is minimal R&D for our chasis. Is there a way you could creat an air to water intercooler that’s better than Wagners lot for us?
Do the combustion gases that turn the impeller of the turbo add heat to the ambient air coming into the turbo? I guess I mean do the exhaust gasses heat the whole turbo (body and internal parts of the turbo), which essentially pre-heats the ambient air before it's heated by the actual compression of the turbo?
Turbos get very hot and the extreme heat on the turbine housing side heats the whole turbo but the compressor housing becsuse it is a distance away from the exhaust housing doesnt get anywhere near as hot but still heated up yes, and then compressing air which creates more heat which is why a intercooler is needed.
Does the stock intake manifold on the B58 in the new Supra already have an intercooler inside it? If so I've never seen that before but I'm not surprised either.
Does it take longer for the water to cool down before you can run again vs the air to air? Or is this a matter of preference? I just watched a video where they suggested the A2A?
With a properly designed, high-performance A2W system, the heat exchanger should have the efficiency to quickly expel excess heat even in extreme scenarios. This is shown by their use at the highest level of motorsport in a number of F1 team's power units, and on down to the club level with Jackie Ding's time attack Supra that is shown in our video.
@@AMSPerformance I appreciate the response I’m in the south and today it’s 101 so I was wondering also how does A2W hold up In such EXTREME heat! With me being here is it best for A2A or water? Thanks for your help
Why not run the air conditioner into the intake? Why not use the existing radiator to cool the intake and turbo? How about electric supercharger design?
There would definitely be loss of pressure just from the cooling itself..restrictions aside..For example..you can heat a pneumatic cylinder to increase the pressure thus increasing the amount of load it can lift..or make it faster..obviously cooling would have the opposite effect..The heat excites and expands the oxygen and nitrogen molecules...or some shit like that..😅..
The thing that I don't get anyone can answer, where does the water come from and go to like does it all go through the ice tank? Or is that another thing? I honestly want to know...
Basically, the water gets pumped from the ice tank to the intercoolers, and then back into the ice tank. In drag racing specifically, the ice needs to be replenished after every pass to ensure it's providing the intercoolers with a very cold flow of water. It's a looped system.
Extremely gud low drag just bit care can go long using antifreeze in winter 10 15k periodically lubrication of pump charge hose can b protected by oil vapors by engine breather its nothing less den legendary progress & achievement by "ams" performance deir air to water intercooler is much superior & lot efficient as compared to da market norms, keep wurking hard we wish u a ton of luck on ur "boost" mission & oder racing upgrades
It is very efficient, but when you are pushing mega horsepower 1000-2000 hp you are getting a massive amount of heat generation and they are looking for an improvement.
small correction for the area of flow vs temperature drop mentioned @7min
the heat energy dissipated is corelated with the core volume , and not the length. The same IC used on the example could be used with higher boost and hotter air, and would be cooled by the same delta T as lower boost (actually higher T inlets gets cooled by higher delta T). it is about mass flow, and heat energy and not the psi in the cooler.
Simply put, short path with large cross section area is more efficient, and less restricting than the opposite.
It becomes a diminishing return when the flow through the core becomes to slow to utilize the full core volume and than we have dual, triple pass radiators.
Just had this question in mind, thanks AMS team for the knowledge!
Awesome R&D! You guys are on the cutting edge. Keep up the fantastic work you guys do.👍
Funny how we had comments about this almost in one of the past Infiniti Red Sport videos.
I like informative videos even if I know the concepts.
More of this.
We were just reading through those comments 😂 Sometimes the timing just works out!
This was fascinating, thanks! The intro, with the insane monster HP cars had me worried that I was in the wrong spot for my application, but the information supplied was terrific! I have a '77 Datsun 620 that I'm doing a full restoration on + KA24DET motor build and I absolutely refuse to have some ridiculous FMIC ruining the lines of the front of this truck, so here I am, researching air-to-water intercoolers both for their size and efficiency!
Just finished work and my fav has dropped aint even watched it yet but no its going to be a banger... bless and thank u 🙏🙏👊👍✌
I always heard of a air to water intercooler I never knew about it till now! Thanks guy! I'm always learning on UA-cam!
Thanks for this video!
One of my best video ever seen.
Love this content, info that you don’t hear summarized like this anywhere else. I’ll definitely need that extra capacity out here in Las Vegas with the 2023 Z’s air to water setup
That will definitely help out during those hot vegas days!
awesome video, love hearing from the boss. I’m so pumped to pick up my Q from you guys on Tuesday!
That's exciting! See you then!
@@AMSPerformance Flying in tonight, will see you tomorrow AM! 🙏
Great video! My buddy Jackie has been talking the Supra intake manifold up and I think that might be the next upgrade. By the way, Jacob did my tune last year and it’s absolutely fantastic!
That is great to hear! Our calibration team does an amazing job 💻
Thanks for this insightful knowledgeable video!
I live in Sydney Australia, and we are a big mouth intercooler country, but to explain the benefits of air to water intercooler, well that was impressive
Happy it helped to understand how A2W works, that's the goal! Shoutout to Sydney!
@@AMSPerformance
An American living in Sydney
Very informative. I've got both a Q50RS and a GT-R. Both have your intercooler/Heat Exchangers. Q was tuned by Jacob. Oh, both have 'Alpha' intakes too. Thanks for your excellent products.
Thank you for the support!
@@AMSPerformance
@@johninnh4880 I'm picking up my Q on Tuesday with the Pure turbos so I'm really hoping they figured the issue out.
Really sorry to hear you had so much trouble with your upgrade. How's the Q running now?
@@wolfpack9695
@@johninnh4880 Good news is I know ~10 other Q owners that have gone down the Pure turbo upgrade and they haven't had issues yet (knock on wood). I'm hoping Pure has fixed the issue!
Between Jay from Real Street and Martin from AMS…. I suddenly feel like I have an engineering degree. 😎
Share the knowledge 📜
@@AMSPerformance indeed. You guys and Real Street are the best in the industry period.
no mention of Air Density (the import part)
20psi @ 180f into FMIC but 19psi @ 100f coming out but the air density is much higher so even if it dropped to 15psi would still make more power than 20psi.
Much like how a big turbo can make say 500hp @ 10psi , while on same engine a smaller turbo at even 30psi might only make 400hp.
Its all about air density not pressure.
Awesome video, it’s all in the data ❄️❄️❄️
Exactly! Propper data is key 🗝
Thanks brother I love this content! As a fabricator knowledge is power!
📜
@@AMSPerformance
300-degree air can be cooled to 120 ...
and only drop in pressure by 1 PSI ..?
Is that true..?
Please do more of these types of videos :)
Will do!
I’ve always wondered why manufacturers never considered running refrigerant through water to air intercoolers. A similar method is being done with PS fluid being used to not only assist in steering but also braking.
amazing video!
Interesting and informative 🇯🇲
Question with the psi drop on air to air intercooler. Does the air mass or density consumed pre intercooler actually go down with the increase of intercooler size? I figured the psi drop over the hot to cold side came from the extra fill requirement.
Amazing video, I can’t wait for those new intercoolers to drop! TAKE MY MONEY!!!!
More info to come soon! Thank you for watching!
wow such a great vid !
Amazing explanation 👏🏼👏🏼
Thank you very much! Let us know if you would like to see more videos like this!
Awesome video
Great video. To drive the importance of intercooling home, go watch Banks' killing a Duramax series. Increased intercooling efficiency and effectiveness equals denser air, equals more power. Banks will show you that an increase in cooling the charged air adds as much or more power than adding a bigger or second turbo. I see a lot of diesel truck folks going for twin turbos but they still run A2A intercooling 😂 On a tow/haul truck, heavy loads up the hills and steep grades means the truck wants to slow down both up and down the hill, and getting started from standstill is a strain on the engine. At all these crucial times, u got little to no airflow at the grille, except maybe the fan. Introducing water to the equation allows for unlocking response and power when you need it the most. I would opt for a W2A cooler in line just before the stock A2A cooler, OR remove the giant stock cooler altogether and replace that space with a large radiator for cooling the W2A fluid. Get rid of the mechanical clutch fan and shroud which hog like 2 feet of space in front the engine. Get some good electric radiator fans rigged on temp switches and relays like they sell in kits or add a digital controller if u wanna get fancy. Davies craig makes fancy elec water pumps and digital controllers. The pumps are actually pwm motor controlled to vary the impeller speed. U can use them for intercooling and/or for the engine coolant if u want to delete the mechanical OEM water pump. But I'd surely go for a customized W2A setup, with some good sophistication before I consider doubling the turbos on a diesel truck
Don't forget that cooler air will naturally have a lower pressure too, it's not only the restrictions of the intercooler that cause the lower boost psi.
Yeahhh that's something they didn't mention, yes you lose boost pressure but that's because it's denser air. The same amount of air in weight is flowing through. The intercooler restriction isn't that much.
Exactly! A better measure would be CFM into the intercooler and out. Lower temps and less pressure just means its doing it's job.
Jesus Christ, no, no, that's not how this works. Like, at all. Cooled air post-compressor is denser not at less pressure
Have y'all at AMS found out any information regarding what causes the porus block issue for the q50/q60's? I love the car, but the thought of replacing a motor multiple times is obviously a little concerning.
This is dope and very good tech. I would have liked to see his take on air to air intercoolers with external water sprayers and Co2 chilling tubes. Are they just Band-Aids for proper intercoolers?
External water sprayers have been shown to help cool the air to air, but at that point your always spraying water. Unless you mean spraying the water once you see a spike in iat's the sure but its a budget way to help reduce iat's. Co2 chilling tubes is a difficult thing to integrate if you are talking about the air to water. Although killer chiller/power chiller are products that actually address the issues with heat soak in the air to water side of things. Take a look at those products they are really cool, however they require a fully working ac system.
Thanks for education
Is it worth installing fans on water to air heat exchanger
So air to water intercolor paired up with ams heat exchanger ??
I own WTA intercooler. Most people don't even know how this system works. Everyone thought that it takes the water from the engine radiator and they were laughing on me. Fun fact is that i own a Celica st205 with stock WTA Chargecooler and i had 300whp on 16-17 psi. I had stable results and same inlet temps with ATA on road, others need moee than 18 PSI to reach 300whp with air to air intercooler. Also In busy roads and towns WTA is way better I've seen it I tested it and i will never change it to ATA intercooler.
I know about the Hellcat's party trick of stealing some A/C air occasionally, but have you guys experimented with an air to refrigerant system instead of air to water? Obviously more complex, but the temptation of having below ambient intake air (summer time/ hot climate) at all times on the street seems hard to not think about.
That does sound like a good idea only thing id be worried is that poor ac comp 😂 especially with a constant load of hot air unless it’s a beefy compressor someone needs to try this 😂
Look up interchiller
Very cool vid. If I hit the lottery, I'd come work for you guys for free just to learn cool stuff...you guys do all the awesome stuff with all the best cars.
would it be more beneficial to have both for like 1500-2000hp cars?
I feel like the pressure drop is less so from the constriction, which shouldn’t decrease pressure but actually increase (less volume increases fluid speed and pressure this is partially how air conditioners work). The pressure decrease comes from the cooling factor of the intercooler itself. Pressure and temperature correlate. This is known as Gay-Lussacs law, or the pressure-temperature relationship. If the volume increases, the pressure and temperature decreases, via thermal expansion, and the air slows down. If the volume stays the same, but temperature decreases, pressure then decreases at a proportional inverse rate and vice versa.
How do I keep ITA down on water to air on long trips? Bigger radiator and fan?
Absolutely love the start tune, what is it called thinking new ring tune.
ua-cam.com/video/ILhyRwN027M/v-deo.html&ab_channel=NoCopyrightAudioLibrary
Is it possible to retrofit air to air to air to water?
Please do more tech videos.
I know my csf on the f80zcp is kick ass at keeping the car cool
Awesome video man
So would you say A2W is better than A2A or it just depends on your goals or scenario you’re in?
Peep that car at 1:19 👀 awesome video guys! ❤️
That’s a nice GTR right there! 🏁
Alpha 7 Greatness! Thank you for watching!
I love it
Hey guys, I own an Audi RS5 and there is minimal R&D for our chasis. Is there a way you could creat an air to water intercooler that’s better than Wagners lot for us?
How about for a 15-20 minutes road course session? Which one is better?
How about tuning an air to air…. Feeding into a air to water and then to the intake?
Do the combustion gases that turn the impeller of the turbo add heat to the ambient air coming into the turbo? I guess I mean do the exhaust gasses heat the whole turbo (body and internal parts of the turbo), which essentially pre-heats the ambient air before it's heated by the actual compression of the turbo?
Turbos get very hot and the extreme heat on the turbine housing side heats the whole turbo but the compressor housing becsuse it is a distance away from the exhaust housing doesnt get anywhere near as hot but still heated up yes, and then compressing air which creates more heat which is why a intercooler is needed.
Intro music is epic...
Does the stock intake manifold on the B58 in the new Supra already have an intercooler inside it? If so I've never seen that before but I'm not surprised either.
Yes, the stock intake manifold and intercooler are combined. The stock manifold is also plastic in its construction.
Formula Seven car has it like this
Does it take longer for the water to cool down before you can run again vs the air to air? Or is this a matter of preference? I just watched a video where they suggested the A2A?
With a properly designed, high-performance A2W system, the heat exchanger should have the efficiency to quickly expel excess heat even in extreme scenarios. This is shown by their use at the highest level of motorsport in a number of F1 team's power units, and on down to the club level with Jackie Ding's time attack Supra that is shown in our video.
@@AMSPerformance I appreciate the response I’m in the south and today it’s 101 so I was wondering also how does A2W hold up In such EXTREME heat! With me being here is it best for A2A or water? Thanks for your help
Why not add a ata cooler and 2 wta coolers and another ata cooler for max cooling.
In OEM, do the Intercooler circulate water to the radiator?
No.
It’s separate cooling circuits
Hopefully most of AMS research ports over from the Q to the new Z, and I won't have to wait too long for upgrades.
😎
Can you run both ?
Why not run the air conditioner into the intake?
Why not use the existing radiator to cool the intake and turbo?
How about electric supercharger design?
There would definitely be loss of pressure just from the cooling itself..restrictions aside..For example..you can heat a pneumatic cylinder to increase the pressure thus increasing the amount of load it can lift..or make it faster..obviously cooling would have the opposite effect..The heat excites and expands the oxygen and nitrogen molecules...or some shit like that..😅..
When do the VR30 air to water intercoolers drop?!
If your running E, the more E the colder the Intake charge. Unless your going for records or are not running a good heat exchanger. Never.
@@nefarious1435 I think there might be a misunderstanding. I meant to ask about their release date.
More info coming soon!
The thing that I don't get anyone can answer, where does the water come from and go to like does it all go through the ice tank? Or is that another thing? I honestly want to know...
Basically, the water gets pumped from the ice tank to the intercoolers, and then back into the ice tank. In drag racing specifically, the ice needs to be replenished after every pass to ensure it's providing the intercoolers with a very cold flow of water. It's a looped system.
@@AMSPerformance aaahh yea I see that was really the only part that was confusing me is where the water goes to... Alright thanks a bunch
So whats better
boost gauge is very low technology. even if the boost pressure drop the content of the air raming inside the pipe doesn't decrease.
"gale banks"
Interchiller solves the ice box problem
Anything over 130f charge temps is a bomb.
👍
Extremely gud low drag just bit care can go long using antifreeze in winter 10 15k periodically lubrication of pump charge hose can b protected by oil vapors by engine breather its nothing less den legendary progress & achievement by "ams" performance deir air to water intercooler is much superior & lot efficient as compared to da market norms, keep wurking hard we wish u a ton of luck on ur "boost" mission & oder racing upgrades
Wow I had no idea air to air was so inefficient
It is very efficient, but when you are pushing mega horsepower 1000-2000 hp you are getting a massive amount of heat generation and they are looking for an improvement.
Add TEC making the water cooler
“BMW / SUPRA” 😂🤣😭💀
🤣🤣
😈🚀
Hit the like button guys
They are not wrong you know ^^^ 🧐
No brainer, water wins everytime!
He was correct in saying bmw intake. It is a bmw.
Nitrous is the answer to colder air
Obnoxious intro.
Can you make one water to air for 2015 ram 2500 6.7 ?