Glad you asked about sodium ion. It seems like one to watch. It sounds like it will be much better for home and storage, especially if placed outside or in a garage in a colder country like the UK.
Thanks very much for that video. Really clear and concise about the things we want to know. I'm mega pleased to hear that they're considering a UK manufacturing facility. I guess that would make things easier for them exporting into the EU. They seem like an excellent company, everything of mine is crossed for them! Once again, thanks for the video.
Interesting video, thanks. I'd like to have asked ... Why does the 'All in One' battery (despite its name) not include PV DC inputs in the same box too ? This would surely allow solar panels to charge the battery directly (DC coupled) plus reduce the amount of extra hardware required too. Fewer inverters, fewer conversion stages, less stuff on the wall, more efficient. I think the Powerwall 3 has a built-in solar inverter too, so I guess Givenergy will have to release an 'Evenmore All in One' model soon ; )
The AIO was designed to compete with the Powerwall 2, which was also AC coupled, so now that Powerwall 3 is out I suspect you're right that GivEnergy may well consider adding solar inputs as well. We shall see!
A very interesting video, so thank you for taking the time to film, edit and upload. I don't use GivEnergy , however we use 2 x 5kw Growatt hybrid inverters and each have there own battery bank (31.5kWh in all + a further 10kWh from the car). We have 2 Inverter because should one fail and need repair the other can act as a backup, and number 2 service goes back to either car or grid supply. Number one inverter runs the house electrics including cooker and hot water and all other circuits. The second Inverter powers our ASHP, and a additional freezer in the out buildings, plus a water pump to bring our rain harvested water to our loo. One of our 2 x Nissan Leaf ,acts as a backup generator via a Setec 6kw unit and 10kWh of storage should one of the Inverters fail. It is also useful should the local grid go down as we can drive to a useable charger and top the car back up. We use Octopus Go to charge up our battery banks in the winter months and have 2 solar arrays a 3kw and a 800 watt solar array, both of which a await an upgrade to 5kw arrays each, once we have the budget to pay for a new roof. We use our granny charger to utilise the excess solar for car charging via a dedicated outdoor socket. With our current 3kw solar array the most we have generated is 328kWh in June this year. All our systems are manually operated so no fancy auto switching here.
Hi Tim, thanks for your great videos. We are currently looking at a solar & battery installation and a local installer recommended the GivEnergy AIO in their ‘package’, so obviously I put the name into UA-cam, everything I’ve seen so far is very positive.
Great video. Very proud to see a local firm doing well (I live a couple of streets away). I currently have a solaredge inverter then giv inverter and 8.2 battery. Would the all in one work coupled with the solaredge or would I lose the optimiser functionality? Thinking of this as an upgrade and keeping the 8.2 too. 8.2 is nowhere near enough for us.
The AIO is AC coupled so you'd keep the SolarEdge inverter and then plug the AIO into the house AC (via the gateway). So you wouldn't lose your optimiser functionality.
Thanks for another good video. Researching home solar and battery solutions at the moment and GE seem to have a great set up. Was there any talk of microinverters? There seems to be a lot of buzz about them lately.
I did ask them about micro-inverters as it happens (I left that bit out of the video) and they said they'd thought about it but have no imminent plans to develop any, I'm afraid.
An interesting video, well delivered. Thank You Tim. You asked for questions/comments for GE that might affect their development pathway: 1) I can't see why they are not developing a charge controller for a system with dual DC- and AC-coupled batteries - this would allow having cake and eating it. DC battery sized for just under daily usage and hammered (for its efficiency) to maximise self-generated use. AC battery sized to take at least the excess of peak daily production over usage. Used to overcome the hybrid inverter's output limitations at times of peak consumption and to handle interaction with EV and grid. The logic is easy to write. 2) AIO only floor-mounted? - this must be the result of skimping on the chassis. It's big and it's IP65...so why not on an outside wall above the rain-splashed dirt? 3) I would love there to be development plans to one day match Powerwall3, which features an integrated inverter with 6 MPPT channels and low 60V start-up voltage. UK is cloudy & heavily built-up, and has no planning rules to orient housing favourably. So resilience to shade is vital and multiple MPP tracking is an elegant solution.
I suspect the answer to your first question is a matter of priorities and that your suggestion may well happen eventually. And these things are never as simple as you might assume!
You have a fantastic delivery and presentation style Tim - you could work in TV! I have a question if I may Tim - more for you than GivEnergy. My system is being installed in Oct with 12 panels and a 9.5 battery. Its a new property and I have a airsource heat pump but no EV. I am with Octopus but on a bog standard tariff at the moment. At what stage do I approach Octopus to enquire about the best tariff - can I only do this after the installation? The tariff changes aren't immediate and you apply then wait your turn?? Intelligent sounds perfect for me as I will be in NZ for 6 weeks in the winter!
Thank you! Regarding tariffs, Octopus requires certain documentation for some of their tariffs (for example an MCS certificate for the solar install is required to sign up for Flux), so you'd need to apply after installation. However, you can email them to ask about the specific requirements for the other tariffs as you may be able to sign up if you already satisfy those requirements.
I think that once you're with Octopus it's quite quick to change. It happened within a day when I moved from Agile to Flux (although I did have to resubmit some forms etc.). You can't move back as quickly, i think it's about 30 days you have to stay for. I'll probably move back to Agile in the winter (the price drops are a great way of heating your water or charging your battery). You should try contacting your installer and ask them to replace the 9.5 battery and inverter with and AIO with gateway.
Hi Tim, do you know if a specific configuration is required for the gateway to provide power in a blackout, or is it default? Having my install in 2 weeks and not sure if I need to remind the installer.
Great video. Why is the All in one AC coupled?. It seems odd you then have to add solar inverter as well. I woukd have thought a combined hybrid inverter like the gen 3 combined into the battery would have made more sense
That's a question you'd have to ask GivEnergy! The Powerwall is also AC coupled, incidentally, so perhaps that has something to do with it. It has the advantage that it's easily retrofitted to an existing solar system.
Very interesting vid. I like the sound of the "no internet required". If GE close down, stop paying for their cloud servers, going to be some very expensive paperweights around.
Great question, asking about adding the New Gateway and all in one battery to an existing set up, our system seems the same as yours ( gen2 hybrid inverter and 2x 9.5kW batteries. As I would be keen to do an upgrade for the same reasons you expressed. I’m super pleased you asked that question.
Hi Tim, great video as always and thank you for passing on this great info. I have just had my AIO fitted and it’s working great. I also asked about the GivEnergy inverter and they said their system currently does not work well with two GivEnergy Inverters. This is understandable as there would be conflict, they advised just a string inverter (make of my choice) that plugs into the Gateway. I chose a SolarEdge HW Wave 6kw inverter, with optimisers. If you would like a pic or have any questions please let me know. My installer also got told a new Hot Water diverter is on the way, plus the EV Charger in 4-6 months. The extra batteries (up to 6 for the AIO is about a year away) My only current outstanding question - is GivEnergy going to produce a bidirectional EV charger so we can use the 65kw battery in our cars? (V2H - vehicle to Home). I hope YES and it can be plugged into the Gateway.
Good question about the bi-directional EV charger. We didn't speak about that and I presume at the moment that their EV charger is just one way. I think it's not as simple as the charger being compatible, I believe more infrastructure in your home is required for V2H than just the charger. I'm sure all that will come in due course but I expect it's a little while off yet.
Ok, actually it could be that all you need is a compatible EV charger but the EV itself also needs to be capable, it seems: electroverse.octopus.energy/community/ev-blogs-and-guides/bi-directional-charging?gclid=CjwKCAjwxaanBhBQEiwA84TVXFf4MDYV1NsnS0WsD43mF1bsTTML2p2-hHTyKhNLV_FL4iRBbLOiGhoCHkYQAvD_BwE
Hi Tim - have smart tariff automations (and any other automations) been added to the app yet? I'm planning on getting a Sunamp Thermino for my hot water needs, and I'm wondering if I could use a GivEnergy smart plug to control when it should charge - at least until they release the solar diverter you mentioned they have planned!
I don't see any automations yet, no. If you're on Go or Intelligent Go you should be able to just use the smart plug scheduler or even the Sunamp controls to set up your water heating timings. Unless you're on Agile your other option is Home Assistant until such time as the tariff automations are available. I have no idea how much longer those will take but if you email GivEnergy they might be able to give you some indication.
Hi Tim and Kat, a great video. Thanks. Any inside information on when it will be possible to run the GivEnergy all in one + gateway with existing solar set ups (with hybrid inverter, GivEnergy 9.5kwh batteries etc)? Thank you. Best regards Martin
At the moment there are no plans to support mixed systems, so far as I know, which is a shame. Having said that it might be possible with some external control, such as Home Assistant. Check out the channel by Speak to the Geek, he's managed to set up an AIO combined with a GivEnergy AC inverter connected to a 8.2 kW battery. It's not a trivial thing to implement but if you're so inclined that sort of thing might also be possible with a hybrid inverter.
This might help a bit: ua-cam.com/video/1GTPfUW9VuI/v-deo.htmlsi=s_G7kfUf5LhkYSWj And also this one at about 15 mins in: ua-cam.com/video/DDDd_j8O5s4/v-deo.htmlsi=1iASaL0H2MmqINcH
Great video. I've had my system installed for over a year now and it's performing better than expected so im really happy. I've been waiting for the EV charger since the installation so it's great to hear that it's almost here at last. I will be replacing my aging but trusy dumb EO charger with the GE charger although the urgency has subsided somewhat since the changes to Octopus export rates increasing which almost removes the need to divert solar now, however, it will be good to have all kit within the same ecosystem. One big thing in favour of GE iss their open API and how the support control via the like of Home Assistant. This is a huge thing in their favour in my opinion. BTW, you have a new subscriber!
I'm glad to hear it! I'm looking forward to the GE EV charger as we're still using a granny charger at the moment. It's been fine for us while we wait as we don't do loads of miles so can top up pretty easily, but having a proper charger will make life slightly more convenient for those times when we need to charge more overnight. Hopefully it won't slip any further.
Interesting video Tim. I've had an All in One installed in my home since July.As it was only the second one my installer had fitted we had some initial issues with the software initialisation but Paul L sorted all this remotely and it now works as expected. Sadly I'm unable to get solar as my property is leasehold but I'm on EDF E10 tariff with Quantum storage heating and hot water. The Gateway feeds the 24h consumer unit while the switched off peak supply is kept as before. Since the installation I've hardly used any peak rate Kwh AT ALL! since your video came out GivE have significantly improved the warranty (I think 12yrs on the entire kit?) I've done some simulated GRID failures and as you said the switch over is impressive! (Neither my PC or WiFi router even rebooted!) Sadly however the grid resupply is a bit problematic in my case, taking numerous inverter reboots and always tripping one or more MCBOs on the main consumer unit. i'm confident this will eventually be sorted though and anyway the OFF grid switchover is the most important function.
So I’ve got a Solaredge battery. But if I was to do it all over again I’d go for Givenergy. The givenergy battery represents best overall value for money. The cost per kWh combined with good package design with their hybrid inverter (reducing install costs) and warranty would make this the best choice. My one hesitation: I think im right in saying that 6kW is the max inverter size. I think Solaredge goes up to 10kW with their single phase inverters. No doubt they’ll address this in future.
Yes, exactly, at the moment the highest inverter load is found in the All in One battery at 6 kW. We have the 5 kW hybrid inverter which is the highest load for their other single-phase inverters. It looks like they're pretty close to releasing their range of three-phase inverters which go up to 11 kW, but obviously you need a three-phase supply for that!
Thanks for the first bit RE: forced charging + discharging I asked GivEnergy that via email too, and they basically said the same as yourself. So I passed on my findings to a Facebook group about said GivEnergy systems and I was mocked instead I thought it was perhaps helping other people who had the same concerns as me, but apparently not
Urgh. I think some people are still stuck in the old dogma about this. I'm sorry you had to experience that. This is why I don't use forums, they are often populated by the vocal minority who just like to behave like bullies. Still, I'm going to use my battery system as I see fit and there's nothing they can do about it! They can do whatever they like with theirs too.
Hi Tim, thanks for the video. I have just ordered a system using 3 x 9.5KWh batteries (along with solar), but think I would be OK with 2 x 13.5KWh AIO. Have you had any updates since the video on when GE will be able to supply multiple AIO systems? I think I'd rather wait, or install one and a second later if it's not going to be too long a wait.
I don't, I'm afraid. Your best bet is to drop them an email to ask directly, I'm sure they'd be happy to let you know the latest timeline. One thing to consider is the extra VAT you'd pay if you got them later as they are VAT free with your solar array but not afterwards.
Thanks Tim. GE have confirmed that additional units can be purchased up front, and commissioned when the new firmware is available. The hardware will remain the same. No timeline available, so would be a buy multiple now, and fit when ready, or buy one unit now, and pay the additional VAT on additional units at a later date.@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk
@@mdbradley yup, it's a bit of a gamble, for sure. I hope they don't take too much longer to make that functionality available. I think a fair few people are wanting to do the same thing as you.
You can export to the grid with any solar setup. At the moment you'd have some other non-GivEnergy inverter for your solar panels and then the AIO would connect to your home AC as it's an AC coupled battery. Alternatively the GivEnergy hybrid inverter would be for connecting to both solar panels and a DC coupled battery, like with our system. An installer should be able to help you either way.
Thanks for the information. Wish i’d went for the AIO now instead of my 5kw hybrid as would like to not worry about turning on two appliances without drawing from grid. One question I would of asked is about reliability as so many people are experiencing issues with SOC drops, battery discharge issue etc. - all I want is a system that I can ‘forget’ about and not constantly checking if the thing is working correctly.
@@ianwilliams5915 hmm, reporting it to GivEnergy is about all you can do, I suspect. Perhaps they can issue a fix or at the very least use your experiences to develop a fix in future updates.
Would love to have known more about expanding the 'all-in-one' past the initial unit and cost, is it the same overall size for instance and can the extra space not used by the inverter be used for more battery modules?
It's totally filled up inside, the inverter is at the top and there are four battery modules, there's no space for any more. If you need more capacity you add a second AIO to your system (although the support for multiple AIOs on the same system is not yet available but it should be along in due course). Check out the GivEnergy website for the data sheets on all their kit where you can compare the dimensions of each battery/inverter etc.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks Tim, sorry to say I really wasn't very clear with my comment. What I meant; was after the first AIO unit with integrated inverter the subsequent, if using the same carcass, would have unused space at the top presumably.. Absolutely blown away they've given a 12 year product warranty on the All-In-One, perhaps other products!
@@SuperDiagnostic ah, I understand. No, I believe you'd connect each one up to your home AC using the built-in inverter in each unit, I don't think you can connect one AIO to the other. The advantage is then extra power output as well as capacity. These work a bit differently to the hybrid inverters where you connect multiple batteries to the one inverter.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Did you say that the inverter carries only a 5 year warranty v 12 on the battery? I was under the impression that many 'less integrated' units carried a 10 year warranty. Sorry to jump in.
@@jimmcdonald6465 I think GivEnergy changed all their warranties to 12 years for their batteries. Check their website to see what the AIO warranty is now as it may be different to what I said originally.
Great info Tim, Have a couple of questions. 1. DId they say whether there are plans for larger capacity batteries, or will the gateway work OK with 2 All-in-one batteries? 2. My plan is to eventually get a solar/battery installation with full house backup capability, looking for some AI/simplicity in management software (rather just let it do its stuff than having to keep monitoring or adjusting schedules) - will their future updates look at optimal charge/discharge patterns based on current/last week usage trends, forecast solar generation based on weather forecasts (vs last week real usage) and tariff you on in order to maximise revenue/minimise grid usage and maximise solar usage?
The Gateway can have up to six AIOs connected, I believe (check the data sheet on their website). I think probably your best bet for the style of automation you're after would be to investigate Home Assistant. I don't think that sort of functionality is available for GivEnergy systems out of the box just yet (possibly in the future though at some undefined point in time).
Thanks - do you know if energy suppliers allow to pay only for a 4-6 months contract (if you are fully self sufficient for say 6-8 months of year) and still feed any excess production to grid without incurring standing charges?@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk
Hi Tim, great video again. I'm sorry if this seems like a basic question but am I right in thinking a 5kw hybrid inverter could produce up to a 7.5kwp if there is space in the battery and home use is part of what is over the 5kw? I remember you mentioned it in one video but I can't seem to find it now. Thanks in advance
The 5 kW inverter will only ever give a maximum of 5 kW AC power to the house. If the battery is not full and the solar is generating over 5 kW then anything above that can go straight onto the battery (this is called clipped power). So you can use more than 5 kW generation but only 5 kW to the house.
In other words, you can connect a solar array with 7.5 kWp to the inverter, but you'll only ever see 5 kW coming out of it into the home. Anything above 5 kW can go into the battery but as soon as the battery is full the solar array will be capped at 5 kW max.
@@Barry-xg1rdbattery is DC side, so if gen2/3 you can charge the battery at 3.6kW and fire 5kW to the house AC side at the same time. I have this happening fairly regularly. Just need to keep space in the battery.
The sliding scale around warranty sounds concerning - my assumption was I had 10 year warranty, if it drops below 70%, I was getting a replacement? Getting a contribution to a new one isn't a warranty 2:11
Here's the warranty document, for reference: kb.givenergy.cloud/article.php?id=55 It's called a "limited warranty" so I guess that's the difference compared to a full replacement warranty.
Valid point. As an example if you're in year 9 and the battery capacity has dropped to something disastrous like 20% you would only get 10% discount on a replacement? Seems pretty poor imo
@@Barry-xg1rd if it's at 20% after 9 years you would have been able to claim based on the 70% limit significantly earlier, probably at about the two year mark. So you'd get most of a new battery covered.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk They have added basic battery control for standard users (I am set up as installer which is the only way to full access). It is not great but hopefully they will improve. They have a new dashboard that looks nice but it no longer shows the total for Grid to Battery meaning it is less useful for monitoring overall use but better for seeing what the house is using when.
Do you mean would you be able to combine an old LFP AIO with a new LMFP AIO in the same system? That's a good question, I'm afraid I don't know. If you drop them an email they might be able to tell you with more certainty.
@TimAndKatsGreenWalk it will be commendable if they do as this will negate the wall battery 🤣....to some extent maybe not their first one . However, this will become a big part of the industry. Wallbox and enphase are bring out theirs sooooon !!
An installer will be able to give you a price including installation. Check wholesalers such as midsummer for an indicative price of the unit itself. If the sun is shining during the power cut it'll last as long as it's generating power, and then the battery will last for as long as it can after that depending on your house load. We use about 6-7 kWh per day so it could last us two days with no sun. Your house use may vary so you'd need to check your average usage to work that out.
We didn't ask about that but check out the recent Q&A session they held that I've linked to in a Community post. They mention the EMS development there.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalkI had the same question, you covered the mythical EV charger but not the just as "coming soon" EMS. I had the q&a down to watch already so hope it's made clearer
I'm currently looking at installing SolarPV and the Givenergy All in One looks ideal and I made an enquiry to a local installer. They told me that if I went with the All in One I would need the Gateway and also a 5KW Givenergy Hybrid 5Kw inverter. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what I've been told. Also when I looked at the specs the AIO output is 6.0Kw continuous, but the 5Kw Hybrid inverter has a max charge / discharge rate of 3.5Kw so wouldn't that limit the AIO output to that fugure? I have a feeling there's something I'm not quite getting.
Your installer is partly correct although you shouldn't combine the AIO with another GivEnergy inverter, you should use a third party one like Solis or SolarEdge, say, to connect to the PV panels. The AIO is an AC coupled system, so connects to your house AC supply rather than your solar panels. You need a second inverter to connect to your solar panels so they can provide AC to your house. The Gateway is a requirement for the AIO though, your installer is correct there. Because the AIO is AC coupled it will be able to provide 6kW to your house and also charge at 6kW. You need a third party inverter for your solar panels because the GivEnergy system can currently only cope with one inverter, which would be the one built in to the AIO itself, so a third party inverter prevents that being a problem. For more clarity I suggest calling GivEnergy so they can confirm all this for you.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Many thanks Tim and Kat, That makes sense, though the dialogue I'm having with the people who are quoting has made me have my doubts about their experience with installing the AIO. I got their details from the Givenergy " Find an Installer " limk.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk I believe you can still use GivEnergy inverters with the AIO, however they need to be commissioned with a different account to the customer's account, i.e., don't add the PV inverter to the customer GE account.
@@McOw123 yes, that would make sense. There are probably better AC inverters than the GivEnergy 3kW one though, and there's no point using a hybrid as the PV inverter in this case since it wouldn't be connected to any batteries.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Fair comment, and duly noted, as I'm currently designing my own system (with my installer, of course) and you make a good point which could reduce my overall system cost. Thank you!
Will the EV charger manage the solar divert as it is challenge to charge the car up on the Zappi without draining the house battery (unless I also force that into charge).
Questions for GivEnergy: -Why can’t we see the smart plugs in the portal? Currently it’s only in the app, which is buggy. -With the hybrid inverters supporting up to 3 EM115 meters with CT-clamps, would we be able to use the two others to keep an eye on heatpump and 3rd party EV charger, just to see the consumption in the portal, so you use it as an “energy hub”? -Why can’t they fix the bug in the app, where it shows solar generation until 1 hour ago?
So many questions for GE. 1) When is their battery management solution ready, demo’s in 2022 but still not here, allows multiple inverters and batteries to work together we have 2 x 3kwh inverters with 2x9.5 batteries and had to resort to decommissioning one inverter and attaching 2 batteries to the other as it constantly fell out of sync 2) I was told by their support team the new all in one is not compatible with existing setups, who is right here and who do you talk to about non standard configurations 3) The gateway retrofit on existing, who at GE can help? Again I was told not compatible I wouldn’t buy GE stuff again as it’s only really designed for simple small home installs.
Like I said, those are non standard configurations so not officially supported. Regarding the EMS check out the recent Q&A session they held that I've linked to in a Community post. They seem pretty close to rolling that out.
Interesting to note that the 10 year warranty is actually a 1 year warranty. Wonder also what happens when future batteries aren’t compatible with the current day inverters. Presumably the customer has to foot labour and delivery too!
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Actually they are in the middle of the development of this new breakthrough with silicon batteries = four times quicker to charge , has the capability of many times of recharging, it will probably be the biggest valued company on the planet , somewhat surprising you are not aware of this , both of you seem to be on the ball when it comes to everything electric, who knows Rodney this time next year I could be a millionaire.
@@KavanOBrien I asked GivEnergy about other battery chemistries and they only mentioned that they're considering LMFP. They're not working on silicone batteries as far as I know. Perhaps you're thinking of a different company.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Oh yes , sorry I probably wasn’t as clear as one should be , I wasn’t referring to the company you visited, I took a deep dive into what’s really happening to the battery industry , as with everything for sale be it shoes or batteries, each company want you to buy what they have not what’s coming down the line, the good news it will completely revolutionise the whole planet , if I may quote that line from Neil Armstrong = one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind, in today’s vernacular = person kind.
I would love a battery and solar option that can be run fully off grid, but add to our present Tesla Powerwall and solar panels, as I need 3 phase to progress any further.If not grid connected it would be a way to have extra battery and solar!
I think GivEnergy systems require a grid connection at present but I think they mentioned they were working on off-grid options. Possibly worth contacting them to find out more details.
I'm very interested in their charger, I imagine it will integrate well with the rest of their stuff, but I'd also like a charger that supports Octopus Intelligent like the Ohme or (maybe, possibly) the Zappi... if GivEnergy work closely with Octopus I wonder if their charger might as well...?
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk that would be great if you could! The later finish of the Octopus Intelligent cheap time would work better with the A2A heat pumps getting the place up to temperature in the morning (we've got two Haori units just like yours, they're great) but on its own that's probably not a very good way of choosing a car charger... 🙂
Octopus integration would be the logical thing to do, we have approached them to integrate. But we still wait for them to be ready. Our charger has the APIs ready to go
We are holding off and waiting for a v2g charger for our new leaf , it seems there’s lots of beta testing that’s been done but can’t find anyone offering this ‘yet’ ???currently Charging with a 3 pin plug in our 4 hour octopus go tariff , not ideal but still haven’t needed the extortionate public charges. Yet. We are averaging about 600 miles a month at the moment..
Did they mention if the Gen4 inverters will finally have decent battery charge/discharge performance? Three gens and they are still rubbish. At least the AIO they actually got some performance.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Only got the 8.2 battery, which is limited to 2600w. With just the oven and maybe a single hob plus house base load, generally nothing to spare tbh
@stuartburns8657 ours do. We homeschool though so our day staggers a little later than most. Wake up after 830. Lunch around 1, snack around 3, so happy to wait till 730
Well I live in Bristol and invited Three installers of this system to come and price up an installation. Guess what, not One bothered to come back to me. If I remember, I contacted this company asking if they could recomensd an installer who would quote me. Nothing happened. While their product might be good and well priced, for customers trying to find an installer, it may be problematic.
These are the installers we used. They might be close enough to you to give you a quote (although like all installers nowadays they are very busy) www.b-lineservices.co.uk/
In my experience you have to get in full on nag mode and make a damn nuisance of yourself if you want to get anything done. You probably need to talk to 8 to 10 installers if you want 2 or 3 quotes to choose from.
Hi Tim, I've got to express some skepticism when it comes to whether battery forced discharge reduces its MTBF or whether stressing the inverter by forced discharge doesn't also reduce its MTBF. I'd expect it to do so, perhaps significantly. GivEnergy probably have an agenda here. If it's system life expectancy you are looking for, only doing minimal battery cycling from 20 to 80% will extend its MTBF substantially. Whether you can get sufficient payment from the energy you force discharge to sell to more than pay for a replacement battery relative to how long the battery would have performed for without forced discharge is another question... You are probably looking at replacing both the battery and inverter due to reduced life expectancy of these components. Compared to just selling the surplus pv energy generated without forced discharge to max your energy price sales.
LFP batteries are pretty robust, certainly better than the alternative NMC chemistry, so cycling is not a huge problem. It will cause a slight reduction in lifetime, for sure, but the warranty is for unlimited cycles, so it's expected that you'd use them to their full potential. My back of the envelope calculation suggests you'd lose about 3 p/kWh in usable lifetime by cycling so as long as you can get more than 3 p/kWh "profit" from doing that then you're all good.
@@SusannaSaunders oh boy, I forget now, I did it a while back and didn't write it down, I just remember the value. I think it involved finding the typical capacity drop of LFP batteries compared to number of cycles, then working out how much capacity is lost per cycle, then converting that into a cost assuming you'd have to replace that capacity with a new battery of the same kWh as you'd lost. As battery prices drop that value will drop too, of course, so my thinking is that by the time you need to replace your battery there will be cheaper and better ones available, so you may as well use your current battery as much as you want then replace with a better one as and when required.
@@SusannaSaunders I think this is the source I found for LFP battery degradation curves: www.onecharge.biz/blog/lfp-lithium-batteries-live-longer-than-nmc/
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks Tim. I looked at the video, very detailed assessment of performance which was interesting if a bit 'towel round the head' to grasp it all. My assessment was made focussing on ROI and, as our meter (not Smart) has been stuck for a while and still awaits replacement, I don't have any current numbers. I have some historic data from a defunct Loop Energy monitor which gives me monthly and daily figures so I could find the peak and trough which gives some idea. I used Gary Waite's (Gary does solar) pretty sophisticated on- line calculator to compare several quotes and specs to arrive at the best balance of inverter size and battery capacity linked to the most panels we could accommodate on our roof (16). Overall ROI on my best estimates and the Octopus Flux tariff gave a ROI of around 16% and payback about 6.5 years. It will be interesting to see the actual figures once the installation has been done and everything connected and settled down. EMS with my proposed system (Growatt inverter and batteries) remains uncertain until some licensing and regulations problems get sorted out. I can't see a business case for EVs at all. The very high initial cost, high depreciation, potentially very expensive future insurance premiums and undetermined future rate of VLD as well limited range and high cost of fast charging away from home doesn't all add up very favourably. Given the occasional reports of catastrophic EV fires I wonder if they might be banned from using ferries and the Channel Tunnel (and others) which could become a major problem until safer battery technology is available. We carry a lot of stuff over long distances regularly so there are very few suitable EVs and those that might suit are very expensive. Our annual mileage is also quite modest. My business case favours buying a good petrol engined car about 5 years old and keeping it until it has a major breakdown or the cost of service exceeds the residual value of the car. Costs are modest and I think the overall environmental impact is probably less than for a new EV changed at the now 'usual' interval of 3-5 years. However each to his own.
Regarding EV fires, statistically EVs are actually less likely to catch fire than petrol or diesel cars, you just hear about them when they happen because it's "news". Don't let the press put you off for that reason. A lot of new EVs are using LFP battery chemistry now too, which doesn't catch fire at all (the same chemistry as a lot of home storage batteries). Running costs are also way less than ICE cars if you can charge from home (we charge form home about 95% of the time and I think the average is something like 80% for most people). Servicing costs are way less too. The higher upfront cost should become parity with ICE cars within the next couple of years so that'll also no longer be an issue. And if you favour buying second hand in any case then the high depreciation works in your favour, surely? Range is increasing all the time and within a few years you'll start seeing EVs with longer range than ICE cars. EVs have a lower lifetime carbon footprint that ICE cars and despite the higher upfront carbon impact they break even with ICE cars at about 15k miles. Basically all of your objections are either already not the case or should be non-issues within a few years. I'd recommend watching this handy summary: ua-cam.com/video/gXdLA63zZFE/v-deo.html
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks for your detailed response. You make a good case for waiting, probably about 5 years, in the expectation that EVs will be lighter, have reasonable range and have safer batteries. In the meantime most EVs still have more dangerous batteries. While fires in EVs might be less common that in ICE vehicles (just like Labradors causing most dog bites) this is strongly influenced by the large multiple of ICE cars compared to EVs. As with many statistical arguments it is important to balance numbers with the severity of the event. EV fires are disastrous and very hard to control so are much more likely to spread to adjacent vehicles or structures. Also the risk cannot be mitigated by emptying fuel tanks which is easy for ICEs. It will be interesting to see what happens to insurance costs for EVs as underwriters absorb the much higher proportion of write offs in fairly new cars due to uncertainty about safety of potentially damaged batteries. Lots of unresolved questions and, no doubt, lots more debate about this over the next few years. Room for both options for quite a while I suspect. As for 'carbon footprint' a used car about 5 years old has already liquidated a lot of this and recycling debt at the end of its life is, at the moment, much less than for an ICE.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks for the link. I did watch it. Maybe in the medium term EVs will be more attractive. Apart from the crude emissions argument at the moment I am not convinced. Particulates from increased tyre wear are still a big environmental concern.
If you have a three-phase supply they will shortly be doing up to 11 kW inverters but sadly single-phase is still limited to 5 (although the All in One does have a 6 kW inverter built in).
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk no only single phase. Been looking at SolarEdge or Solax inverters. It's a shame as really wanted a GivEnergy setup, as the kit looks great, app looks good, and help support a British company. But unfortunately, doesn't meet the requirements for the house 😔
@@davidw717 ah, that is a shame. You can still connect the All in One to an AC system, though, so that's an option. But if you're after a hybrid inverter then you're right.
When you're generating more solar power than you can consume at that moment you can "divert" some of it to your EV instead of sending it out to the grid.
lmfp batteries are manufactured by CATL rumoured to be going into the new M3 Tesla"highland" with rumoured 20% more capacity for a like to like size/weight
I'm actually not on Flux right now, I'm on Go, but I'll be switching back to Flux in a month or so. I might give it a try then but currently I have no experience of the Flux automation so I couldn't comment.
For extra info check out this recent Q&A with GivEnergy:
givenergy.co.uk/giv-ing-you-support-a-live-qa-with-givenergy-guru-george-rawding/
Let’s hope this UK company prospers in this highly competitive market.
Yes, indeed.
I think they should given they're partnering with energy companies in particular
Glad you asked about sodium ion. It seems like one to watch. It sounds like it will be much better for home and storage, especially if placed outside or in a garage in a colder country like the UK.
Yup, very interested to see how that battery chemistry works out.
What a fantastic video. And geeat to here about this very successful company.
Thanks very much for that video. Really clear and concise about the things we want to know. I'm mega pleased to hear that they're considering a UK manufacturing facility. I guess that would make things easier for them exporting into the EU. They seem like an excellent company, everything of mine is crossed for them! Once again, thanks for the video.
No problem, glad you liked it.
Interesting video, thanks.
I'd like to have asked ... Why does the 'All in One' battery (despite its name) not include PV DC inputs in the same box too ?
This would surely allow solar panels to charge the battery directly (DC coupled) plus reduce the amount of extra hardware required too. Fewer inverters, fewer conversion stages, less stuff on the wall, more efficient.
I think the Powerwall 3 has a built-in solar inverter too, so I guess Givenergy will have to release an 'Evenmore All in One' model soon ; )
The AIO was designed to compete with the Powerwall 2, which was also AC coupled, so now that Powerwall 3 is out I suspect you're right that GivEnergy may well consider adding solar inputs as well. We shall see!
Sounds great Tim. Good to hear their plans for expansion and future products. Would love to have a visit myself at some point! 👍
Maybe once they've built their factory we can ask for a tour 😉
A very interesting video, so thank you for taking the time to film, edit and upload. I don't use GivEnergy , however we use 2 x 5kw Growatt hybrid inverters and each have there own battery bank (31.5kWh in all + a further 10kWh from the car). We have 2 Inverter because should one fail and need repair the other can act as a backup, and number 2 service goes back to either car or grid supply.
Number one inverter runs the house electrics including cooker and hot water and all other circuits. The second Inverter powers our ASHP, and a additional freezer in the out buildings, plus a water pump to bring our rain harvested water to our loo. One of our 2 x Nissan Leaf ,acts as a backup generator via a Setec 6kw unit and 10kWh of storage should one of the Inverters fail. It is also useful should the local grid go down as we can drive to a useable charger and top the car back up.
We use Octopus Go to charge up our battery banks in the winter months and have 2 solar arrays a 3kw and a 800 watt solar array, both of which a await an upgrade to 5kw arrays each, once we have the budget to pay for a new roof. We use our granny charger to utilise the excess solar for car charging via a dedicated outdoor socket. With our current 3kw solar array the most we have generated is 328kWh in June this year. All our systems are manually operated so no fancy auto switching here.
Very impressive setup. Sounds like you've thought it through thoroughly.
Hi Tim, thanks for your great videos. We are currently looking at a solar & battery installation and a local installer recommended the GivEnergy AIO in their ‘package’, so obviously I put the name into UA-cam, everything I’ve seen so far is very positive.
It does seem to be a nice piece of kit.
Thank you for a really interesting and informative video.
Great video. Very proud to see a local firm doing well (I live a couple of streets away). I currently have a solaredge inverter then giv inverter and 8.2 battery. Would the all in one work coupled with the solaredge or would I lose the optimiser functionality? Thinking of this as an upgrade and keeping the 8.2 too. 8.2 is nowhere near enough for us.
The AIO is AC coupled so you'd keep the SolarEdge inverter and then plug the AIO into the house AC (via the gateway). So you wouldn't lose your optimiser functionality.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk fantastic. Time to save up.
We have many SE and AIO customer's, no issue at all.
Thanks for another good video. Researching home solar and battery solutions at the moment and GE seem to have a great set up. Was there any talk of microinverters? There seems to be a lot of buzz about them lately.
I did ask them about micro-inverters as it happens (I left that bit out of the video) and they said they'd thought about it but have no imminent plans to develop any, I'm afraid.
An interesting video, well delivered. Thank You Tim. You asked for questions/comments for GE that might affect their development pathway:
1) I can't see why they are not developing a charge controller for a system with dual DC- and AC-coupled batteries - this would allow having cake and eating it. DC battery sized for just under daily usage and hammered (for its efficiency) to maximise self-generated use. AC battery sized to take at least the excess of peak daily production over usage. Used to overcome the hybrid inverter's output limitations at times of peak consumption and to handle interaction with EV and grid. The logic is easy to write.
2) AIO only floor-mounted? - this must be the result of skimping on the chassis. It's big and it's IP65...so why not on an outside wall above the rain-splashed dirt?
3) I would love there to be development plans to one day match Powerwall3, which features an integrated inverter with 6 MPPT channels and low 60V start-up voltage. UK is cloudy & heavily built-up, and has no planning rules to orient housing favourably. So resilience to shade is vital and multiple MPP tracking is an elegant solution.
I suspect the answer to your first question is a matter of priorities and that your suggestion may well happen eventually. And these things are never as simple as you might assume!
You have a fantastic delivery and presentation style Tim - you could work in TV! I have a question if I may Tim - more for you than GivEnergy. My system is being installed in Oct with 12 panels and a 9.5 battery. Its a new property and I have a airsource heat pump but no EV. I am with Octopus but on a bog standard tariff at the moment. At what stage do I approach Octopus to enquire about the best tariff - can I only do this after the installation? The tariff changes aren't immediate and you apply then wait your turn?? Intelligent sounds perfect for me as I will be in NZ for 6 weeks in the winter!
Thank you! Regarding tariffs, Octopus requires certain documentation for some of their tariffs (for example an MCS certificate for the solar install is required to sign up for Flux), so you'd need to apply after installation. However, you can email them to ask about the specific requirements for the other tariffs as you may be able to sign up if you already satisfy those requirements.
I think that once you're with Octopus it's quite quick to change. It happened within a day when I moved from Agile to Flux (although I did have to resubmit some forms etc.). You can't move back as quickly, i think it's about 30 days you have to stay for. I'll probably move back to Agile in the winter (the price drops are a great way of heating your water or charging your battery). You should try contacting your installer and ask them to replace the 9.5 battery and inverter with and AIO with gateway.
Hi Tim, do you know if a specific configuration is required for the gateway to provide power in a blackout, or is it default? Having my install in 2 weeks and not sure if I need to remind the installer.
It should just work, but worth testing it before your installer leaves.
Great video. Why is the All in one AC coupled?. It seems odd you then have to add solar inverter as well. I woukd have thought a combined hybrid inverter like the gen 3 combined into the battery would have made more sense
That's a question you'd have to ask GivEnergy! The Powerwall is also AC coupled, incidentally, so perhaps that has something to do with it. It has the advantage that it's easily retrofitted to an existing solar system.
Very interesting vid. I like the sound of the "no internet required". If GE close down, stop paying for their cloud servers, going to be some very expensive paperweights around.
Quite. Hopefully that won't happen but you never know!
We are expanding so fast. That event isn't even though of
Great question, asking about adding the New Gateway and all in one battery to an existing set up, our system seems the same as yours ( gen2 hybrid inverter and 2x 9.5kW batteries. As I would be keen to do an upgrade for the same reasons you expressed. I’m super pleased you asked that question.
Something to keep an eye on for sure. Hopefully it'll be officially supported at some point.
Hi Tim, great video as always and thank you for passing on this great info.
I have just had my AIO fitted and it’s working great. I also asked about the GivEnergy inverter and they said their system currently does not work well with two GivEnergy Inverters. This is understandable as there would be conflict, they advised just a string inverter (make of my choice) that plugs into the Gateway. I chose a SolarEdge HW Wave 6kw inverter, with optimisers. If you would like a pic or have any questions please let me know.
My installer also got told a new Hot Water diverter is on the way, plus the EV Charger in 4-6 months. The extra batteries (up to 6 for the AIO is about a year away)
My only current outstanding question - is GivEnergy going to produce a bidirectional EV charger so we can use the 65kw battery in our cars? (V2H - vehicle to Home). I hope YES and it can be plugged into the Gateway.
Good question about the bi-directional EV charger. We didn't speak about that and I presume at the moment that their EV charger is just one way. I think it's not as simple as the charger being compatible, I believe more infrastructure in your home is required for V2H than just the charger. I'm sure all that will come in due course but I expect it's a little while off yet.
Ok, actually it could be that all you need is a compatible EV charger but the EV itself also needs to be capable, it seems:
electroverse.octopus.energy/community/ev-blogs-and-guides/bi-directional-charging?gclid=CjwKCAjwxaanBhBQEiwA84TVXFf4MDYV1NsnS0WsD43mF1bsTTML2p2-hHTyKhNLV_FL4iRBbLOiGhoCHkYQAvD_BwE
Did they mention if their automations would also support adjusting charge level based on solar forecast?
We didn't ask about that, sorry.
This is in development. Solcast want silly money. So we are looking at other sources of solar information
Hi Tim - have smart tariff automations (and any other automations) been added to the app yet? I'm planning on getting a Sunamp Thermino for my hot water needs, and I'm wondering if I could use a GivEnergy smart plug to control when it should charge - at least until they release the solar diverter you mentioned they have planned!
I don't see any automations yet, no. If you're on Go or Intelligent Go you should be able to just use the smart plug scheduler or even the Sunamp controls to set up your water heating timings. Unless you're on Agile your other option is Home Assistant until such time as the tariff automations are available. I have no idea how much longer those will take but if you email GivEnergy they might be able to give you some indication.
Hi Tim and Kat, a great video. Thanks. Any inside information on when it will be possible to run the GivEnergy all in one + gateway with existing solar set ups (with hybrid inverter, GivEnergy 9.5kwh batteries etc)? Thank you. Best regards Martin
At the moment there are no plans to support mixed systems, so far as I know, which is a shame. Having said that it might be possible with some external control, such as Home Assistant. Check out the channel by Speak to the Geek, he's managed to set up an AIO combined with a GivEnergy AC inverter connected to a 8.2 kW battery. It's not a trivial thing to implement but if you're so inclined that sort of thing might also be possible with a hybrid inverter.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk thank you very much for taking the time to reply to me. Best regards Martin
Can you please explain and show how you have configured to charge and discharge in order to make full use/benefit of the Octopus Flux tariff?
Thanks
This might help a bit: ua-cam.com/video/1GTPfUW9VuI/v-deo.htmlsi=s_G7kfUf5LhkYSWj
And also this one at about 15 mins in: ua-cam.com/video/DDDd_j8O5s4/v-deo.htmlsi=1iASaL0H2MmqINcH
Great video. I've had my system installed for over a year now and it's performing better than expected so im really happy.
I've been waiting for the EV charger since the installation so it's great to hear that it's almost here at last. I will be replacing my aging but trusy dumb EO charger with the GE charger although the urgency has subsided somewhat since the changes to Octopus export rates increasing which almost removes the need to divert solar now, however, it will be good to have all kit within the same ecosystem.
One big thing in favour of GE iss their open API and how the support control via the like of Home Assistant. This is a huge thing in their favour in my opinion.
BTW, you have a new subscriber!
I'm glad to hear it! I'm looking forward to the GE EV charger as we're still using a granny charger at the moment. It's been fine for us while we wait as we don't do loads of miles so can top up pretty easily, but having a proper charger will make life slightly more convenient for those times when we need to charge more overnight. Hopefully it won't slip any further.
Interesting video Tim. I've had an All in One installed in my home since July.As it was only the second one my installer had fitted we had some initial issues with the software initialisation but Paul L sorted all this remotely and it now works as expected. Sadly I'm unable to get solar as my property is leasehold but I'm on EDF E10 tariff with Quantum storage heating and hot water. The Gateway feeds the 24h consumer unit while the switched off peak supply is kept as before. Since the installation I've hardly used any peak rate Kwh AT ALL! since your video came out GivE have significantly improved the warranty (I think 12yrs on the entire kit?) I've done some simulated GRID failures and as you said the switch over is impressive! (Neither my PC or WiFi router even rebooted!) Sadly however the grid resupply is a bit problematic in my case, taking numerous inverter reboots and always tripping one or more MCBOs on the main consumer unit. i'm confident this will eventually be sorted though and anyway the OFF grid switchover is the most important function.
I'm glad it's working well for you. Hopefully you'll get the switch back to grid power sorted in due course.
Great vid though, thanks for the insight! I use the home assistant integration currently, nice to hear they are taking local control seriously.
Yup, they consider that as a key differentiator so are keen to roll it out natively, I think.
So I’ve got a Solaredge battery. But if I was to do it all over again I’d go for Givenergy. The givenergy battery represents best overall value for money. The cost per kWh combined with good package design with their hybrid inverter (reducing install costs) and warranty would make this the best choice.
My one hesitation: I think im right in saying that 6kW is the max inverter size. I think Solaredge goes up to 10kW with their single phase inverters. No doubt they’ll address this in future.
Yes, exactly, at the moment the highest inverter load is found in the All in One battery at 6 kW. We have the 5 kW hybrid inverter which is the highest load for their other single-phase inverters. It looks like they're pretty close to releasing their range of three-phase inverters which go up to 11 kW, but obviously you need a three-phase supply for that!
Are you able to charge from clipped with GivEnergy?
@@RichardABW yes, if you have a hybrid inverter it'll charge your battery from clipped solar until the battery is full.
Great news about the EV charger - thanks! 🎉😁
Let's hope they're able to stick to that date!
Thanks for the first bit RE: forced charging + discharging
I asked GivEnergy that via email too, and they basically said the same as yourself. So I passed on my findings to a Facebook group about said GivEnergy systems and I was mocked instead
I thought it was perhaps helping other people who had the same concerns as me, but apparently not
Urgh. I think some people are still stuck in the old dogma about this. I'm sorry you had to experience that. This is why I don't use forums, they are often populated by the vocal minority who just like to behave like bullies. Still, I'm going to use my battery system as I see fit and there's nothing they can do about it! They can do whatever they like with theirs too.
Great vid, thanks again!
Hi Tim, thanks for the video. I have just ordered a system using 3 x 9.5KWh batteries (along with solar), but think I would be OK with 2 x 13.5KWh AIO. Have you had any updates since the video on when GE will be able to supply multiple AIO systems? I think I'd rather wait, or install one and a second later if it's not going to be too long a wait.
I don't, I'm afraid. Your best bet is to drop them an email to ask directly, I'm sure they'd be happy to let you know the latest timeline. One thing to consider is the extra VAT you'd pay if you got them later as they are VAT free with your solar array but not afterwards.
Thanks Tim. GE have confirmed that additional units can be purchased up front, and commissioned when the new firmware is available. The hardware will remain the same. No timeline available, so would be a buy multiple now, and fit when ready, or buy one unit now, and pay the additional VAT on additional units at a later date.@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk
@@mdbradley yup, it's a bit of a gamble, for sure. I hope they don't take too much longer to make that functionality available. I think a fair few people are wanting to do the same thing as you.
Hi Tim ,Great video. Thinking of going solar.Wonder whether you can add a Gen 3 Hybrid inverter & AIO+Gateway for exporting to the grid ?
You can export to the grid with any solar setup. At the moment you'd have some other non-GivEnergy inverter for your solar panels and then the AIO would connect to your home AC as it's an AC coupled battery. Alternatively the GivEnergy hybrid inverter would be for connecting to both solar panels and a DC coupled battery, like with our system. An installer should be able to help you either way.
Thanks for the information.
Wish i’d went for the AIO now instead of my 5kw hybrid as would like to not worry about turning on two appliances without drawing from grid.
One question I would of asked is about reliability as so many people are experiencing issues with SOC drops, battery discharge issue etc. - all I want is a system that I can ‘forget’ about and not constantly checking if the thing is working correctly.
I think a lot of those soc issues were resolved with firmware updates. Is that still happening?
Yes - twice in past week despite being on latest firmware. - don’t know where to go now.
@@ianwilliams5915 hmm, reporting it to GivEnergy is about all you can do, I suspect. Perhaps they can issue a fix or at the very least use your experiences to develop a fix in future updates.
Would love to have known more about expanding the 'all-in-one' past the initial unit and cost, is it the same overall size for instance and can the extra space not used by the inverter be used for more battery modules?
It's totally filled up inside, the inverter is at the top and there are four battery modules, there's no space for any more. If you need more capacity you add a second AIO to your system (although the support for multiple AIOs on the same system is not yet available but it should be along in due course). Check out the GivEnergy website for the data sheets on all their kit where you can compare the dimensions of each battery/inverter etc.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks Tim, sorry to say I really wasn't very clear with my comment. What I meant; was after the first AIO unit with integrated inverter the subsequent, if using the same carcass, would have unused space at the top presumably.. Absolutely blown away they've given a 12 year product warranty on the All-In-One, perhaps other products!
@@SuperDiagnostic ah, I understand. No, I believe you'd connect each one up to your home AC using the built-in inverter in each unit, I don't think you can connect one AIO to the other. The advantage is then extra power output as well as capacity. These work a bit differently to the hybrid inverters where you connect multiple batteries to the one inverter.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Did you say that the inverter carries only a 5 year warranty v 12 on the battery? I was under the impression that many 'less integrated' units carried a 10 year warranty.
Sorry to jump in.
@@jimmcdonald6465 I think GivEnergy changed all their warranties to 12 years for their batteries. Check their website to see what the AIO warranty is now as it may be different to what I said originally.
Great info Tim, Have a couple of questions.
1. DId they say whether there are plans for larger capacity batteries, or will the gateway work OK with 2 All-in-one batteries?
2. My plan is to eventually get a solar/battery installation with full house backup capability, looking for some AI/simplicity in management software (rather just let it do its stuff than having to keep monitoring or adjusting schedules) - will their future updates look at optimal charge/discharge patterns based on current/last week usage trends, forecast solar generation based on weather forecasts (vs last week real usage) and tariff you on in order to maximise revenue/minimise grid usage and maximise solar usage?
The Gateway can have up to six AIOs connected, I believe (check the data sheet on their website). I think probably your best bet for the style of automation you're after would be to investigate Home Assistant. I don't think that sort of functionality is available for GivEnergy systems out of the box just yet (possibly in the future though at some undefined point in time).
Thanks - do you know if energy suppliers allow to pay only for a 4-6 months contract (if you are fully self sufficient for say 6-8 months of year) and still feed any excess production to grid without incurring standing charges?@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk
I don't know, I'm sorry. You'd have to ask the energy suppliers that question.
Hi Tim, great video again. I'm sorry if this seems like a basic question but am I right in thinking a 5kw hybrid inverter could produce up to a 7.5kwp if there is space in the battery and home use is part of what is over the 5kw? I remember you mentioned it in one video but I can't seem to find it now. Thanks in advance
The 5 kW inverter will only ever give a maximum of 5 kW AC power to the house. If the battery is not full and the solar is generating over 5 kW then anything above that can go straight onto the battery (this is called clipped power). So you can use more than 5 kW generation but only 5 kW to the house.
In other words, you can connect a solar array with 7.5 kWp to the inverter, but you'll only ever see 5 kW coming out of it into the home. Anything above 5 kW can go into the battery but as soon as the battery is full the solar array will be capped at 5 kW max.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk thanks Tim! That makes perfect sense and what I was expecting. It does seem like an undervalued benefit of oversizing
@@Barry-xg1rdbattery is DC side, so if gen2/3 you can charge the battery at 3.6kW and fire 5kW to the house AC side at the same time. I have this happening fairly regularly. Just need to keep space in the battery.
The sliding scale around warranty sounds concerning - my assumption was I had 10 year warranty, if it drops below 70%, I was getting a replacement?
Getting a contribution to a new one isn't a warranty
2:11
That's pretty standard as far as warranties go, no?
Here's the warranty document, for reference: kb.givenergy.cloud/article.php?id=55
It's called a "limited warranty" so I guess that's the difference compared to a full replacement warranty.
From what I've watched on UA-cam about battery warranties, a sliding scale is standard if not ideal.
Valid point. As an example if you're in year 9 and the battery capacity has dropped to something disastrous like 20% you would only get 10% discount on a replacement? Seems pretty poor imo
@@Barry-xg1rd if it's at 20% after 9 years you would have been able to claim based on the 70% limit significantly earlier, probably at about the two year mark. So you'd get most of a new battery covered.
I am envious; it sounds like GivEnergy is going to have lots of better options than I get from my SolarEdge system.
I hear that SolarEdge are bringing out a new version of their web portal soon with some more controls so you might find that improves things for you.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk They have added basic battery control for standard users (I am set up as installer which is the only way to full access). It is not great but hopefully they will improve. They have a new dashboard that looks nice but it no longer shows the total for Grid to Battery meaning it is less useful for monitoring overall use but better for seeing what the house is using when.
@@lyracian ah, I see. Well, hopefully they'll continue to bring out new features in due course.
Hi Tim, if ðey do ðe switch to LMFP in future batteries would it still be backwards compatible to ðe AIO?
Do you mean would you be able to combine an old LFP AIO with a new LMFP AIO in the same system? That's a good question, I'm afraid I don't know. If you drop them an email they might be able to tell you with more certainty.
October for the EV charger - nice. I asked them a couple of weeks ago but they couldn't give a date.
It could be the end of October, mind!
Hi Tim, great video thanks. What is the "scheduler" you refer to?
The timed charge and discharge settings available in the app or web portal under the battery options.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk thanks. I hope we get a more sophisticated scheduler eventually (or good automation)
Did they mention anything about a bi-directional EV charger ?
I don't believe that's part of the EV charger specs but I'll ask.
@TimAndKatsGreenWalk it will be commendable if they do as this will negate the wall battery 🤣....to some extent maybe not their first one . However, this will become a big part of the industry. Wallbox and enphase are bring out theirs sooooon !!
May be one to ask (and maybe I’ve missed this with the coming EV charger) is, do they have plans for a bidirectional charger?
I don't believe this EV charger will be bidirectional, but I will ask them to see if they have future plans for one.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalkwould make a lot of sense given the new AIO has V2H
@@prowan743 I'm not sure what you mean about the AIO having V2H. The AIO is an AC coupled home storage battery, it's not a vehicle.
Just asking how much for the unit plus installation and how long it lasts in a power cut
An installer will be able to give you a price including installation. Check wholesalers such as midsummer for an indicative price of the unit itself. If the sun is shining during the power cut it'll last as long as it's generating power, and then the battery will last for as long as it can after that depending on your house load. We use about 6-7 kWh per day so it could last us two days with no sun. Your house use may vary so you'd need to check your average usage to work that out.
Any mention of plant room software to have two or three AC coupled inverters and batteries running in tandem to provide greater energy to the house
We didn't ask about that but check out the recent Q&A session they held that I've linked to in a Community post. They mention the EMS development there.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Cheers Tim 👍
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalkI had the same question, you covered the mythical EV charger but not the just as "coming soon" EMS. I had the q&a down to watch already so hope it's made clearer
Can you add the link to the description or a pinned comment please. Community posts are not visible in the iPad app. Dunno why but they're not
@@geoffreycoan yup, here you go: givenergy.co.uk/giv-ing-you-support-a-live-qa-with-givenergy-guru-george-rawding/
I'm currently looking at installing SolarPV and the Givenergy All in One looks ideal and I made an enquiry to a local installer. They told me that if I went with the All in One I would need the Gateway and also a 5KW Givenergy Hybrid 5Kw inverter. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what I've been told. Also when I looked at the specs the AIO output is 6.0Kw continuous, but the 5Kw Hybrid inverter has a max charge / discharge rate of 3.5Kw so wouldn't that limit the AIO output to that fugure? I have a feeling there's something I'm not quite getting.
Your installer is partly correct although you shouldn't combine the AIO with another GivEnergy inverter, you should use a third party one like Solis or SolarEdge, say, to connect to the PV panels. The AIO is an AC coupled system, so connects to your house AC supply rather than your solar panels. You need a second inverter to connect to your solar panels so they can provide AC to your house. The Gateway is a requirement for the AIO though, your installer is correct there. Because the AIO is AC coupled it will be able to provide 6kW to your house and also charge at 6kW. You need a third party inverter for your solar panels because the GivEnergy system can currently only cope with one inverter, which would be the one built in to the AIO itself, so a third party inverter prevents that being a problem. For more clarity I suggest calling GivEnergy so they can confirm all this for you.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Many thanks Tim and Kat, That makes sense, though the dialogue I'm having with the people who are quoting has made me have my doubts about their experience with installing the AIO. I got their details from the Givenergy " Find an Installer " limk.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk I believe you can still use GivEnergy inverters with the AIO, however they need to be commissioned with a different account to the customer's account, i.e., don't add the PV inverter to the customer GE account.
@@McOw123 yes, that would make sense. There are probably better AC inverters than the GivEnergy 3kW one though, and there's no point using a hybrid as the PV inverter in this case since it wouldn't be connected to any batteries.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Fair comment, and duly noted, as I'm currently designing my own system (with my installer, of course) and you make a good point which could reduce my overall system cost. Thank you!
Will the EV charger manage the solar divert as it is challenge to charge the car up on the Zappi without draining the house battery (unless I also force that into charge).
I believe that is the plan, yes.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk That would be good to see.
Questions for GivEnergy:
-Why can’t we see the smart plugs in the portal? Currently it’s only in the app, which is buggy.
-With the hybrid inverters supporting up to 3 EM115 meters with CT-clamps, would we be able to use the two others to keep an eye on heatpump and 3rd party EV charger, just to see the consumption in the portal, so you use it as an “energy hub”?
-Why can’t they fix the bug in the app, where it shows solar generation until 1 hour ago?
I'll pass those on.
I’d love to see my ASHP in the app!
So many questions for GE.
1) When is their battery management solution ready, demo’s in 2022 but still not here, allows multiple inverters and batteries to work together we have 2 x 3kwh inverters with 2x9.5 batteries and had to resort to decommissioning one inverter and attaching 2 batteries to the other as it constantly fell out of sync
2) I was told by their support team the new all in one is not compatible with existing setups, who is right here and who do you talk to about non standard configurations
3) The gateway retrofit on existing, who at GE can help? Again I was told not compatible
I wouldn’t buy GE stuff again as it’s only really designed for simple small home installs.
Like I said, those are non standard configurations so not officially supported. Regarding the EMS check out the recent Q&A session they held that I've linked to in a Community post. They seem pretty close to rolling that out.
Please tell GivEnergy to come to the US! 😅
I'm sure they'll get over there eventually if they keep going at this rate!
Hi, I sell these, they are very popular. Much more so since in the last few days they have upped the warranty to 12 years with inspections
Interesting that the warranty increase had that much of an effect.
Interesting to note that the 10 year warranty is actually a 1 year warranty. Wonder also what happens when future batteries aren’t compatible with the current day inverters. Presumably the customer has to foot labour and delivery too!
This is similar to other battery manufacturer's warranties.
What about silicone batteries being developed, which would completely transform everything with storage.
I don't think they have plans for any other chemistries at the moment. Who knows what they'll consider in the further future.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Actually they are in the middle of the development of this new breakthrough with silicon batteries = four times quicker to charge , has the capability of many times of recharging, it will probably be the biggest valued company on the planet , somewhat surprising you are not aware of this , both of you seem to be on the ball when it comes to everything electric, who knows Rodney this time next year I could be a millionaire.
@@KavanOBrien I asked GivEnergy about other battery chemistries and they only mentioned that they're considering LMFP. They're not working on silicone batteries as far as I know. Perhaps you're thinking of a different company.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Oh yes , sorry I probably wasn’t as clear as one should be , I wasn’t referring to the company you visited, I took a deep dive into what’s really happening to the battery industry , as with everything for sale be it shoes or batteries, each company want you to buy what they have not what’s coming down the line, the good news it will completely revolutionise the whole planet , if I may quote that line from Neil Armstrong = one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind, in today’s vernacular = person kind.
I would love a battery and solar option that can be run fully off grid, but add to our present Tesla Powerwall and solar panels, as I need 3 phase to progress any further.If not grid connected it would be a way to have extra battery and solar!
I think GivEnergy systems require a grid connection at present but I think they mentioned they were working on off-grid options. Possibly worth contacting them to find out more details.
We have a couple of systems fully off grid.
Gen1 solar.
AIO too
I'm very interested in their charger, I imagine it will integrate well with the rest of their stuff, but I'd also like a charger that supports Octopus Intelligent like the Ohme or (maybe, possibly) the Zappi... if GivEnergy work closely with Octopus I wonder if their charger might as well...?
That's a very good question. I'll certainly ask them about that.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk that would be great if you could!
The later finish of the Octopus Intelligent cheap time would work better with the A2A heat pumps getting the place up to temperature in the morning (we've got two Haori units just like yours, they're great) but on its own that's probably not a very good way of choosing a car charger... 🙂
Octopus integration would be the logical thing to do, we have approached them to integrate. But we still wait for them to be ready. Our charger has the APIs ready to go
@@PaulLandregan that's great to know, thank you!
We are holding off and waiting for a v2g charger for our new leaf , it seems there’s lots of beta testing that’s been done but can’t find anyone offering this ‘yet’ ???currently Charging with a 3 pin plug in our 4 hour octopus go tariff , not ideal but still haven’t needed the extortionate public charges. Yet. We are averaging about 600 miles a month at the moment..
Bi-directional chargers are still thin on the ground unfortunately. I did hear of one but I forget what make it was, sorry.
Did they mention if the Gen4 inverters will finally have decent battery charge/discharge performance? Three gens and they are still rubbish. At least the AIO they actually got some performance.
We didn't talk about gen 4 inverters, no.
Good video and work 👏
Never understood why you'd force discharge at the same time you are usually cooking a family meal?
Well, as you're discharging it'll cover your cooking and any extra goes to the grid. Works pretty well.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Only got the 8.2 battery, which is limited to 2600w. With just the oven and maybe a single hob plus house base load, generally nothing to spare tbh
We force discharge a little for max revenue and leave 70% remaining for cooking dinner after 7 and to carry is through till 2am
@@madonemt Ah, kids wouldn't wait until after 7pm to eat lol, but makes sense now
@stuartburns8657 ours do. We homeschool though so our day staggers a little later than most. Wake up after 830. Lunch around 1, snack around 3, so happy to wait till 730
not sure about the off-line thing, I'm sure it's in the terms & conditions, and will void the warranty
Perhaps they'll adjust the terms and conditions. I guess we'll see in due course.
Well I live in Bristol and invited Three installers of this system to come and price up an installation. Guess what, not One bothered to come back to me. If I remember, I contacted this company asking if they could recomensd an installer who would quote me. Nothing happened. While their product might be good and well priced, for customers trying to find an installer, it may be problematic.
They have a "find an installer" tool on their website. Give that a try.
These are the installers we used. They might be close enough to you to give you a quote (although like all installers nowadays they are very busy)
www.b-lineservices.co.uk/
Yes, i used the installer to find a local company, contacted Three, no replies at all.@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk
In my experience you have to get in full on nag mode and make a damn nuisance of yourself if you want to get anything done. You probably need to talk to 8 to 10 installers if you want 2 or 3 quotes to choose from.
@@keithhobbs1 I was going to buy one ex-VAT and find a recommended installer but am much less sure now!
Hi Tim, I've got to express some skepticism when it comes to whether battery forced discharge reduces its MTBF or whether stressing the inverter by forced discharge doesn't also reduce its MTBF.
I'd expect it to do so, perhaps significantly.
GivEnergy probably have an agenda here.
If it's system life expectancy you are looking for, only doing minimal battery cycling from 20 to 80% will extend its MTBF substantially.
Whether you can get sufficient payment from the energy you force discharge to sell to more than pay for a replacement battery relative to how long the battery would have performed for without forced discharge is another question... You are probably looking at replacing both the battery and inverter due to reduced life expectancy of these components.
Compared to just selling the surplus pv energy generated without forced discharge to max your energy price sales.
See if you can get some feedback from GivEnergy about these two scenarios as I'd like to hear what they have to say on the matter!
LFP batteries are pretty robust, certainly better than the alternative NMC chemistry, so cycling is not a huge problem. It will cause a slight reduction in lifetime, for sure, but the warranty is for unlimited cycles, so it's expected that you'd use them to their full potential. My back of the envelope calculation suggests you'd lose about 3 p/kWh in usable lifetime by cycling so as long as you can get more than 3 p/kWh "profit" from doing that then you're all good.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks Tim! Are you able to share how you arrived at that figure please? I'd love to know!
@@SusannaSaunders oh boy, I forget now, I did it a while back and didn't write it down, I just remember the value. I think it involved finding the typical capacity drop of LFP batteries compared to number of cycles, then working out how much capacity is lost per cycle, then converting that into a cost assuming you'd have to replace that capacity with a new battery of the same kWh as you'd lost. As battery prices drop that value will drop too, of course, so my thinking is that by the time you need to replace your battery there will be cheaper and better ones available, so you may as well use your current battery as much as you want then replace with a better one as and when required.
@@SusannaSaunders I think this is the source I found for LFP battery degradation curves:
www.onecharge.biz/blog/lfp-lithium-batteries-live-longer-than-nmc/
Did you do a 'business case' assessment of your system before you bought it?
In a manner of speaking: ua-cam.com/video/iLFrykG49Uk/v-deo.html
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk
Thanks Tim.
I looked at the video, very detailed assessment of performance which was interesting if a bit 'towel round the head' to grasp it all.
My assessment was made focussing on ROI and, as our meter (not Smart) has been stuck for a while and still awaits replacement, I don't have any current numbers. I have some historic data from a defunct Loop Energy monitor which gives me monthly and daily figures so I could find the peak and trough which gives some idea. I used Gary Waite's (Gary does solar) pretty sophisticated on- line calculator to compare several quotes and specs to arrive at the best balance of inverter size and battery capacity linked to the most panels we could accommodate on our roof (16). Overall ROI on my best estimates and the Octopus Flux tariff gave a ROI of around 16% and payback about 6.5 years. It will be interesting to see the actual figures once the installation has been done and everything connected and settled down.
EMS with my proposed system (Growatt inverter and batteries) remains uncertain until some licensing and regulations problems get sorted out.
I can't see a business case for EVs at all.
The very high initial cost, high depreciation, potentially very expensive future insurance premiums and undetermined future rate of VLD as well limited range and high cost of fast charging away from home doesn't all add up very favourably.
Given the occasional reports of catastrophic EV fires I wonder if they might be banned from using ferries and the Channel Tunnel (and others) which could become a major problem until safer battery technology is available.
We carry a lot of stuff over long distances regularly so there are very few suitable EVs and those that might suit are very expensive. Our annual mileage is also quite modest.
My business case favours buying a good petrol engined car about 5 years old and keeping it until it has a major breakdown or the cost of service exceeds the residual value of the car. Costs are modest and I think the overall environmental impact is probably less than for a new EV changed at the now 'usual' interval of 3-5 years. However each to his own.
Regarding EV fires, statistically EVs are actually less likely to catch fire than petrol or diesel cars, you just hear about them when they happen because it's "news". Don't let the press put you off for that reason. A lot of new EVs are using LFP battery chemistry now too, which doesn't catch fire at all (the same chemistry as a lot of home storage batteries). Running costs are also way less than ICE cars if you can charge from home (we charge form home about 95% of the time and I think the average is something like 80% for most people). Servicing costs are way less too. The higher upfront cost should become parity with ICE cars within the next couple of years so that'll also no longer be an issue. And if you favour buying second hand in any case then the high depreciation works in your favour, surely? Range is increasing all the time and within a few years you'll start seeing EVs with longer range than ICE cars. EVs have a lower lifetime carbon footprint that ICE cars and despite the higher upfront carbon impact they break even with ICE cars at about 15k miles. Basically all of your objections are either already not the case or should be non-issues within a few years. I'd recommend watching this handy summary: ua-cam.com/video/gXdLA63zZFE/v-deo.html
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks for your detailed response.
You make a good case for waiting, probably about 5 years, in the expectation that EVs will be lighter, have reasonable range and have safer batteries.
In the meantime most EVs still have more dangerous batteries.
While fires in EVs might be less common that in ICE vehicles (just like Labradors causing most dog bites) this is strongly influenced by the large multiple of ICE cars compared to EVs.
As with many statistical arguments it is important to balance numbers with the severity of the event.
EV fires are disastrous and very hard to control so are much more likely to spread to adjacent vehicles or structures. Also the risk cannot be mitigated by emptying fuel tanks which is easy for ICEs.
It will be interesting to see what happens to insurance costs for EVs as underwriters absorb the much higher proportion of write offs in fairly new cars due to uncertainty about safety of potentially damaged batteries.
Lots of unresolved questions and, no doubt, lots more debate about this over the next few years.
Room for both options for quite a while I suspect.
As for 'carbon footprint' a used car about 5 years old has already liquidated a lot of this and recycling debt at the end of its life is, at the moment, much less than for an ICE.
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks for the link. I did watch it. Maybe in the medium term EVs will be more attractive. Apart from the crude emissions argument at the moment I am not convinced. Particulates from increased tyre wear are still a big environmental concern.
Wish they would release a 6 or 7kw inverter 😢
If you have a three-phase supply they will shortly be doing up to 11 kW inverters but sadly single-phase is still limited to 5 (although the All in One does have a 6 kW inverter built in).
@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk no only single phase. Been looking at SolarEdge or Solax inverters. It's a shame as really wanted a GivEnergy setup, as the kit looks great, app looks good, and help support a British company. But unfortunately, doesn't meet the requirements for the house 😔
@@davidw717 ah, that is a shame. You can still connect the All in One to an AC system, though, so that's an option. But if you're after a hybrid inverter then you're right.
@@davidw717 SolarEdge, best product on the market by a mile.
Is it not possible to have 2 inverters so the total is over 6Kw?
What is solar divert…
When you're generating more solar power than you can consume at that moment you can "divert" some of it to your EV instead of sending it out to the grid.
lmfp batteries are manufactured by CATL rumoured to be going into the new M3 Tesla"highland" with rumoured 20% more capacity for a like to like size/weight
It's certainly an interesting time for battery chemistries. Looking forward to seeing how the next few years pans out.
We would not buy them in. We make our own. 😊
Have you played with the Octopus Flux automation? What are your views? How does this compare with the Intelligent Flux automation?
I'm actually not on Flux right now, I'm on Go, but I'll be switching back to Flux in a month or so. I might give it a try then but currently I have no experience of the Flux automation so I couldn't comment.