Dynamic vs Condenser Microphones
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- Dynamic microphones or condenser microphones for untreated spaces? Today we're going to debunk this advice once and for all. (Sources below) 🎵 EpidemicSound 30 Day Trial: www.epidemicsound.com/referra...
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Table of Contents:
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0:00 - The Debate
3:22 - Sound Tests
5:51 - Sound Analysis
8:08 - Recommendations
Sources:
Podnews Article: geni.us/KkQ6kIQ
SoundonSound: geni.us/JhQcFJ
Lewitt Audio: • Noise Rejection Test -...
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#microphone #dynamic #condensermicrophone - Наука та технологія
![ПОЛНАЯ ИСТОРИЯ ЭКЗОРЦИЗМА [Топ Сикрет]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qBySr6Bt0B8/mqdefault.jpg)
You're missing a couple things. While gain at the preamp does matter related to sensitivity and background noise, most modern preamps are low enough noise to fall below environmental levels especially in untreated spaces but here's the big one... frequency pickup. Dynamic microphones pick up less of a frequency range than condensers. A dynamic may have a frequency pickup of 50-15K Hz while the condenser version may pickup 20-20K. Where are mostly of those rumbles and sounds that people roll off? Below 80 Hz so the headroom changes. Elevated noise levels below vocal frequencies push the level up so of you roll them off (or use a microphone that can't pick them up like a dynamic) then you'll be able to gain up more without bringing up undesirable sounds (AKA noise). Untreated spaces reverberate and enhance that frequency range so when you roll then off, they are reduced thus sounding better to your ear due to less reverb. Polar pattern does help and if you roll off a Shure Beta 87A condenser to match that of a Shure Beta 57A dynamic then yeah, you'd look at background noise in the quietest of environments to see which is less noisy because they would be a match in the things you actually hear - frequency pickup and off axis rejection (due to polar pattern). You covered the difference in pressure operated dynamic mics and pressure gradient condensers very well (along with gain/noise) but you have to look at other defining characteristics between the two mics like frequency pickup too. It all matters.
In your mic comparisons you only cared about background noise with no voice input. If comparing background noise, the condenser would pick up more frequencies and therefore potential noises unless you are in a quiet environment when it's a game of background noise which you do say after your recommendations at the end of the video. Podcaster don't just bring in microphones and record quiet though. If they did then your conclusion would be correct but you're not comparing the sound quality of the signal with both mics, you're comparing background noise only. That invalidates your entire testing because you're not comparing the quality of sound in the signal you care about , your comparing background noise which can be specturally erased leaving you with only signal which may have environmentally enhanced frequencies causing a less natural or acceptable sound. As you know, listening is key.
Ayyyyy SoundSpeeds! Longtime enjoyer of your vids. You're totally right that I missed frequency pickup, and that's a massive contributor to what is being picked up at the end of the day. I guess the main point I was trying to make is that the physical nature of diaphragms cant discriminate between sources and I see so many people using language like "dynamic mics are less sensitive, therefore reject more noise" which is only a piece of the puzzle. Thanks so much for filling in the missing parts.
You're totally right about only testing against noise. I recognize that there are some massive flaws in this very unscientific experiment. My goal was to match the mics as best as possible using tone generators at a few frequencies -it's the best i've got for accuracy, then compare the spl of the ambient noises. However, you're right that this is missing top-end in the analysis, which would've likely painted a different picture in that range.
I just think there's a lot of confirmation bias on this topic, and a lot of misguided advice out there, resulting in a generation of people being afraid of condenser mics in home studios.
Thanks for your experience and making this clear!
@@randyrektor you stick a comment correcting you, thats very humble, well done sir
Hey, I’m all here for discussion! He has a great point, and a fair consideration for sure 👍🏻 ❤️
As someone who lives in New York after owning a condenser mic It took 3 years for me to ever think of ever buying another condenser microphone because of how much noise it picked up
My dynamic mic picks up the fish tank upstairs.
Hahahah them darn fish
You should put a "Recording" light next to the aquarium so the fish know to keep it down.
I think the concept behind condensers for untreated spaces not being good is because they are more prone to pick up reflections from walls, specially high pitch reflections (which condenser are better than dynamics at) muddying up the sound, and not about the noise floor itself
Yeah, that’s a fair point. The reason I included a section on electrical noise floor is because it’s often overlooked and dynamics require a ton more gain, meaning they are inherently going to have more electrical noise. About the reflections, I agree, but polar pattern will address just about all of these issues because the only frequencies that can make it around the diaphragm are low frequencies (high frequencies can’t bend well).. All this to say it’s probably not something discernible, but the gain noise likely is.. but who knows. I need an anechoic chamber for these tests lol!
@@randyrektor Yeah but the title of the video is kinda misleading, because noise floor is (mostly) unrelated to room acoustics, at least preamp gain noise is, so the untreated room has nothing to do with it. In fact, test it yourself, that reverb will muddy up more a condenser than a dynamic. That's why live dynamics are used more, they pick up less high pitch reflections, and low end noise is filtered through high pass, dynamics give more consistent sound room to room
Noise floor is a combination of all noises in the signal, both acoustic noise and electrical noise. It’s the sum of all unwanted noises. Signal to noise is a ratio between the desired signal and all of the unwanted noise. Dynamic mics are not better for untreated spaces. Sound on Sound published an article on this debunking the old argument. There is essentially no difference between condensers and dynamics in any space based on the physics involved in the recording process. Here’s the article www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/15-popular-audio-myths
@@randyrektor I don't know if they did exact tests for this, but oh well. Probably works different for each one on their rooms. YMMV
There is a reason not even professional billionare musicians employ many condensers live, where there is a lot of room/ambient noise (except on sources that require the higher sensitivity and detail of condensers such as cymbals, violins, but we all know why a lot of musicians opt for electric violins instead)
Condensers are WAAAYYY better for close mic'd vocals! And close mic'd vocals will always pick up less of the room. Dynamic microphones for louder, more live vocals in a poorly/untreated room I would understand. But man, condensors give so much more detail and richness than most dynamic microphones. I think the voice is one of the most layered instruments there is. Every nuance in how someone hits a note, phrases, articulates and even breathes makes an impact on the final recording. One shouldn't miss out on all that just because they're too lazy to treat their room a bit. It's not my kind of music but Bilie Eilish sang under a sheet at one point right ☺️... There are a lot of budget solutions for treating your room a bit better and we should really use the best mic for the best performance, not the most convenient one. Just my two cents 🤷♂️.
Great video man. I needed this!!! Happy to be a part of your gang
Thanks for popping by buddy! I appreciate you
Hey! I am really glad I came across this channel!
You are the reason I decided to get into home recording! You helped me record my first single at a youth centre 11 years ago and there has been no turning back , so thank you a ton!!
On the microphone topic. I agree 100%!
I have gone through trial and error on many microphones , and I have found that there are only a small few essentials in a studio setting recording live instruments.
1 - a dynamic (I use a classic SM-57 for many percussive and small stringed instruments)
2 - a condenser with high output for less gain.( mostly for vocals , though I find pairing it with the 57 is great for a "room mic" while recording acoustic guitar and re-amping)
3- ribbon mic (love how it can sound paired with other mics on guitar cabinets.)
4 drum mic kit.
In a world of digital instruments , it feels so amazing to get a beautiful raw sound with microphones.
Subscribed, hope all has been well randy!
Mike, so good to hear from you my friend! I'm absolutely so honoured to hear that I played a part in you taking an interest in recording. It's such a fun world, and there's nothing I love more than sharing that passion! Thanks for subbing and for connecting. I hope all is well
This is the video I NEEDED to watch. Thank you so much! I currently have a $300 mic and want to upgrade to a $800-$1000 range. My dream mic is the Lauten Eden but before I reach the dream I need something in the middle. I’m considering a 2nd condenser before I get my dream tube. Mainly because of repairing/maintenance of tubes and how it’s not easily fixable in my current location
I just saw that too!i currently purchased a condenser mic (starting a podcast!) and noticed a lot of “pre-amps” sold as “frequently purchased together”to clean up the sound.
Good luck with your podcast!
@@randyrektor thank you 😊🙏
I rented a dynamic and a condenser to compare dynamics and condensers. Noise aside, the condenser picks up so much room reverb, it’s nuts. The dynamic sounds like it’s just me, the condenser sounds like I’m in a room with a mic
If both were cardioid patterns, this difference would be almost entirely due to proximity and gain setting
I needed this! Thanks for this!
Glad it was helpful!
Great article. I’m looking at the PD100 Dynamic Mic, and wondering if it will run fine into a Focusrite Scarletti ? Now it’s a Dynamic so doesn’t need the 48v Phantom power right?
So many mics out there, but seeing you using and recommending that one is good. Thanks.
It’s a pretty decent option for the money! I think it will work just fine with the Scarlett. You’ll definitely want to pick up a windscreen for it because the plosives can be a bit annoying. A decent option though!
This video was extremely helpful. Thank you!
Thanks so much for watching :)
I don't understand why these kinds of myths and snake oil is so common in the audio space. I'm more interested in headphones, but I was looking to purchase a new mic last week and obviously the question of dynamic vs condenser mic came up. I was aware that most people say that dynamic mics reject more background noise, but it never made sense to me. The microphone has no way to differentiate between the desired sound (your voice) and the background noise. The only thing that makes a difference is the polar pattern, which is not exclusive to dynamic or condenser mics. I saw audio tests where people were comparing the background noise by talking into the microphone, and having the noise source (e.g. an AC) directly behind them. That makes absolutely no sense, as both sounds are coming from the same direction. The microphone can not differentiate that. From a physics stand-point there should be no difference in how much noise a dynamic and condenser mic pick up, just purely from the technology. Yes, a condenser is typically going to capture a wider frequency range, but that can easily be EQd, e.g. you could lower the upper frequencies to pick up less sharp details, which might be perceived to sound louder. What I don't understand is why these myths are so common even among individuals that are well respected in the field. My issue is that it influences people's purchasing decisions. E.g. in the headphone space it's gotten a bit better in some areas, for example most people know that expensive cables won't make your headphones sound better, but people still keep repeating how some headphones are "amp picky" and need a powerful and expensive amp to sound good, when that's clearly not true, and has never been supported by any objective measurement.
Ahhh yes, I couldn't agree with you more. You're totally right about the upper frequency thing too, condensers have a slightly broader frequency range, but most adults don't hear well beyond 16-17kHz anyways, so it's really not a viable factor in the argument. Practically speaking, you're right on the money, microphones just capture what hits them. That's basically it.
Interesting to hear you get a bit of that in the headphone space. I imagine it would be common in that space because there's a lot of crossover between studio people and audiophiles, which often have very different perspectives (and educations) on the matter.
Also with you that it sucks when these people are selling things in their videos and totally misleading viewers -wether they are aware or not. Thanks for the comment!
I have a very noisy room and there is lot of background noise. What do you recommend? Please help me understand. I am new to this and i want to be a audio podcaster and do voice over as well.
100% the best thing you can do is find a mic thats a cardioid with low self-noise, and make sure you get darn close to that thing! Honestly, proximity is THE best tool you have at your disposal. Get nice and close to a cardioid mic and you’re good!
@@randyrektor thanks for the quick reply but do you suggest any good stuff to buy. I am returning the sanheiser profile I bought a few days ago cos the box looks tampered and when I tried using it, I could hear a lot of background noise picked up altho I kept the mic close to my face.
I am so confused to choose these stuff altho I have a great desire to start a podcast. Please help me with some of your choices in my situation. Thanks
I enjoyed your experiment. I've always been suspicious of the dynamic is quieter claim. In your experiment, It seemed as thorough the background music was a bit quieter with the Maono than the others to my ears. I think one thing that could result in dynamics being quieter is not the microphones themselves but rather how they are used. Generally I think that dynamic users place their mouths closer to the microphone (frequently to obtain that proximity effect) resulting in a higher voice to background sounds ratio.
This is EXACTLY it! 🙌🏻 it’s all about how people tend to use them, which stems back to people thinking you can’t get close to condensers… but ever since like.. the 70s, that’s not true. It’s a whole myth based on facts that are no longer relevant. I recently reviewed the Lauten Audio LS208 which is designed for close proximity, but it’s also a condenser. Best of both worlds!
I think that condensers are maybe more likely to be tuned to pick up more frequencies that include annoying noises, like mouth sounds or background noise like tapping or a dog drinking water. I have heard some dynamics that are the same way, and a condenser that doesn’t seem to emphasize those
Are both the same when it comes to proximity effect?
Yeah that's a totally fair point, and I think you're totally right that some mics are tuned for this. My point is mainly that the tech itself doesn't change the signal to noise ratio based on the type of transducer. The tuning may definitely effect things though. On a cardioid, there is no difference in proximity effect. It's a function in physics, not microphone tech. Thanks for the thoughts on this!
Holy vrap that Peluso sounded so CRISPPPPPPPPYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY I love it. Just everything about that. Damn
Yeah man it’s an absolute beast! We’ve been using it at our studio for about 10 years, although the tubes are starting to fry and they aren’t cheap to replace. Only downside hahah.. actually that and the proprietary hardware. A bugger if you break your shockmounts
have you tried the deity vo-7u usb mic?
Maaaaan that's wild, the first mic is actually the one I had my eyes set on Tonight but the 400 version of it. Thats the 100 right?
It's between that one or the AM8 by FIFINE
Yeah I’m pretty sure this was the 100xlr :)
So for a podcast with several people (2-4) could I use condenser mics? They are cheaper and to me sound better, just don't know if for example my mic would pic up the guests and visa versa
For this reason in particular, a lot of people will lean towards dynamic mics. They are designed to be used right up against the lips (or very close) and most have pop filters built right in. This means if each guest gets really close to their own mic, you'll have much less bleed from one guest to the next. It makes editing quite a bit easier as well as it's easier to hide jump cuts. There are people, like Howard Stern for instance, that use condenser mics for this situation. But the vast majority use dynamics as they accomadate really close micing well.
I lkie your video, so what about best mic for streamers/podacsting if we say budget like shure mv7x
Maybe it's just my ears, but a condenser always seems to sound better to me. I have heard lots of dynamics sound great too, but they never seem to have that crisp high end or the articulation for voice over work a condenser has. The condensers do pick up a lot of background noise at high gain levels though so for some this may be an issue. Depending on the mic and voice, the dynamics always seem bassier with less mids and highs. An SM7 to my ears sounds mushy and blah....you need to eq and process the crap out of one to make it sound decent.
I have a relatively deep voice and it's a pain in the ass to find a dynamic mic which doesn't sound mediocre. Most dynamic mics make my voice sound like it only consists of bass. Even bought the SM7B two times and an audio interface with better preamps to no avail. I eventually gave up and got a condenser.
Actually preamp SNR is best when the preamp gain is set to max. What you need to look at is the sum of the noise from mic and preamp.
ua-cam.com/video/beXVfl1TSD0/v-deo.html
I believe the main difference between moving-coil dynamic mics (ribbon dynamic mics perform differently) and condenser mics is their transient response and acoustic damping. Heavier weight = slower response = potentially more damping happening at the frequencies prone to room noise perceived by human ears?
Also, I believe A-weighted levels may be more appropriate in determining how perceived noise level would be to human ears.
I think the reason why people recommend moving-coil dynamic mics for acoustically untreated space is for their design to be used in a closer proximity to the sound source (lower sensitivity overall + lower sensitivity in low frequencies to compensate for the proximity effect). The low sensitivity design forces people to place the mic closer to their mouth (even though some people place their SM7Bs so far away from their mouth 🤦♂) to get better SNR based on the inverse-square law.
If you have a good interface, then gain noise shouldn’t really be an issue with any mic.
Gain noise is still an issue with the Rodecaster Duo which has good preamps.
sure, a mic picks up room sound, whether if its a condenser or dynamic mic, but no one is recording silence. people record e.g. vocals. and a condenser sounds weird if you record your vocals from very close distance, a dynamic mic not. and the further away you record your vocals, the more room noise will blend in. thats the reason why a dynamic is better than a condenser in untreated rooms. i have a shure sm7b and a neumann tlm102 and would always choose the shure in an untreated room.
Yeah, that’s a totally fair point. The argument is more debunking that the technology in either mic has any effect on what’s being picked up.
I kept saying this to subreddit and every time I got bombarded lol. There are many youtube videos about this and they don't believe even after watching. :) I just gave up persuading them.
It’s so frustrating, isn’t it? I don’t know where this notion comes from that different microphones pick up sound pressure levels differently. It’s just not the case. Physics is physics. A diaphragm just dances in the moving air.. it doesn’t know if it’s voice, guitar, noise, or a dishwasher lol
Reddit is a shit infested hivemind and social cesspool.
Totally. I find some subreddits way worse than others. Sometimes I'm legitimately scared to ask a question lol!
Honestly fuck Reddit.
They can all get bent. Same here. You'll get at least 20 downvotes on buildapcsales for saying it.
Very interesting video!
Thanks for visiting
Hey. You're right about the electrical noise being more if we use a lot of preamp gain (assuming no Cloudlifter and/or clean preamps)... But condensors do pick up a lot of early reflections which blends in with the vocal and is difficult to isolate in post-production. I've always found dynamics better in untreated rooms for the same reason... They don't pick up early reflections that well. With condensors I'd have to always cut somewhere between 200-800 Hz in an untreated room.
The type of diaphragm doesn't impact the amount of early reflections that are captured, only polar pattern. Sound pressure levels are sound pressure levels! If they are in the room, they will be recorded by either microphone similarly. This notion that condensers pick up more background noise is a myth thats been busted by SoundOnSound. I get having favourite mics for different rooms though!
Yes, that was the coin of the condenser microphone, but now you can use an AI noise remover like Waves Clarity or other alternatives and it solves the problem. But if you are live streaming, yes, a dynamic mic is the best choice.
The other reason most people go for the Newman 103, instead of the 102, if they are a professional (do it for a living) voiceover artist, anything below 50 DB clean vo with an additional 12db peaks, and roughly 6 dB overhead, will be rejected. That's the only way you can get it clean audio for a 24 bit. This is when it comes in handy to have a microphone with less than 14 dB noise level. But again, this is television, feature films, etc. The only capable dynamic so far is the electrical voice RE 27 neodynam magnet. Extremely low noise. Also the number one microphone in radio stations for the past 60 years.
Thanks, the facts are very useful.
You're so welcome!
Extremely relevant. Also your subtle humour lulz
Thanks bro! I like to giggle in a room by myself talking to a cam lawl
oooooh, some fire content for those us who love nerdin' our on audio!!!
Hey thanks buddy! It's really nice to know there are other people who don't mind getting in the weeds lol
I am mixed on your thoughts. It's paramount for my podcasting clients to display proper microphone etiquette to decrease their signal to noise ratio. Of course if they're not using their mic properly- dynamic vs. condenser is going to be somewhat of a mute point anyways. In the case of most lazy podcasters who can't be bothered to display proper etiquette, a dynamic mic is defintely going to help mitigate a lot of the unwanted noise/sounds. This video doesn't really account much for frequency response, and you can definitely hear the extra "unwanted" (in this case) range in your tests. A nice excersize- but I don't think this is an answer.
So interestingly a lot of dynamics actually pic up more high frequencies, contrary to what most think. Additionally, large diaphragm condensers are some of the quietest mics out there when looking at self noise. The reason so many think dynamics are better is because people tend to get closer to them. But if you get right on a condenser and right on a dynamic, the room noise will be consistent. This has been demoed by many major mic companies. Lewitt has a video covering this on their channel too.
But you’re right, mic technique is the most important part.
A third factor is microphone self-noise. A condenser microphone has higher sensitivity, but it also has higher self-noise. If the sensitivity gain is higher than the self-noise, then the condenser will have less noise than the dynamic microphone because the SNR starts off higher. Dynamic microphones have near zero self-noise, but pre-amps have a lot of noise. Adding 10dB of gain in the pre-amp also adds 10dB to the referred input noise of the preamp (usually). So, the situation is more complicated than generalizing without looking as specific microphones. Add in proximity, dynamic range, and artifacts, and it gets even more complicated. If one compares a well respected dynamic microphone like the EV RE-20 to the Lauten LS-208, the Lauten condenser is made specifically to meet all the other requirements that an RE-20 satisfies, and excels with 135db of SPL handling and has a wider frequency response, but the sensitivity is only 5mV/Pa compared to the RE-20 1.5mV/Pa. That extra sensitivity comes at a cost of a 15dBA self noise. So, 10dB of extra gain is needed for the RE-20, but any high quality preamp will not add anywhere near 15dB of input referred noise to add 10dB of gain. I like the RE-20 for what it does, and the Lauten for everything else, but one is not gangbusters noisier than the other.
Oooooo this is a solid point! Thanks for sharing this info. I think you’re totally spot on that there’s not going to be an overwhelming large difference, especially when using decent mics.
most dinamics are better at rejectiing of axis, so you dont get that many of the room sound, just record yourself in an untreated space with a dinamic and with a condenser and you will hear it
so basically if my budget is low and i cant afford to sound treat my room, my audio is gonna be shit doesn't matter which type of mic i use. right?
It definitely doesn’t help, but you can do a lot with soft surfaces you have around the house. Pillows, blankets, etc. then get the mic as close to you and as far from your noise as possible. Also make sure the noise is on the ‘blind’ side of the mic. This will help! I have no actual acoustic treatment in my space.
how do you set the correct cordioid pattern you keep talking about?
The polar pattern is fixed on most microphones. This is how it’s shipped. There are exceptions where mics have variable patterns, but it will say on the box :)
@@randyrektor thank you!!
OMG THE LOOP IN THE BACKGROUND
Wait, what loop? 👀
Oh, everybody's obsession with those Shures SM7B is ridiculous! It's a near-field mic with profound proximity effect and I see people mounting them as boom mics over their setups... @JayZTwoCents made a couple very illustrative videos when he bought one and couldn't figure it out.
Ugh it’s frustrating isn’t it? I see the love trickling into the VO space, and I’m so puzzled by it. There are better $500 microphones for voice out there (in my opinion of course). Thanks for the link, I’ll check out that page!
SO TO REDUCE A ROOM ECHO WHICH MIC IS BEST CONDENSER OR DYNAMIC?
Any mic with a cardioid pattern, but mostly you should be treating your space first. Transducers are transducers that wiggle in the air pressure. Regardless of capsule type, they are both susceptible to picking up noise.
You have recorded the noise reflected from the walls... To hear the real difference between the mics you should record the samples by speaking in to the front and to the back of the mics following by normalizing all of the "front" samples. After that try to compare the "back" samples. I think it reveals the real difference between the dynamics and condensers
That’s a great plan and a solid demonstration. However, there are no real pickup differences between dynamic and condensers with regards to noise beyond their polar patterns and sensitivity to high frequencies. Sound on Sound (a reputable audio publication) posted a great article on this debunking this concept. The only controls we have are polar pattern, proximity, and passive absorption. Beyond that, the microphones function the same. Your tests would be great at demonstrating polar pattern differences though!
One problem with this comparison is the dynamic microphones are way too far from your mouth. With proper placement of 2-4 inches from the source, their gain can be significantly reduced, eliminating most if not all of the background noise. This is where dynamic microphones shine and why they are used on live stages with multiple "hot mics" to prevent feedback and signal bleed. The preamp gain is set as low as possible to achieve a clean sound and then amplified later in the chain.
True but you can also use a condenser at that same distance which completely negates this point.
@@randyrektor A condenser should be placed at least 6-12 inches away from the source for dialogue and will not withstand the same sound pressures as a dynamic without distortion. It requires higher gain and will capture more background noise at the same speaking volume. That's why they are used as overhead, room and ambient microphones, because they pick up more room sound. The dynamic is the clear winner for eliminating noise in a proper setting.
This is not the case with modern condensers. This is a bit of a misconception that goes back to microphones of the past that could not handle high SPLs. I’ve recorded countless singers less than 2” from the diaphragm with the right mic. Even Neumann makes handheld condenser mics for live. They are much more rugged than they were 30 years ago and can handle crazy high SPL. Even using condensers on a kick drum is no problemo these days.
A big part of the sensitivity is the width of the diaphragm. While an expensive dynamic capsule with two nanometer diaphragm will pick up the slightest noise, much less sensitive 25 nanometer diaphragm on a dynamic will not vibrate from distant sounds. Instead of the rate dropping approximately 40 decibels per 6 in, dynamic microphones will often drop more than two times that amount. This is why as hard as companies were trying to make dynamic shotguns, when condensers were extremely expensive, They just couldn't pull it off. They even try to use the SM55 (Same thing. Is this in 57) as a boom microphone called the SM5(a). Basically an SM57 inside of a blimp he would use for a standard shotgun . It's sold Nothing for 40 plus years (less than 200 units per year ) until all of a sudden the seven version blew up in 2008 for some dumb reason. Now they are claiming it's always been the number one microphone. It never was in radio stations. It never will be. It's a POS. I agree with you that with new insulation techniques, you can make dynamics work. You can probably get a pro studio insulation for less than $1,000 per 100 ft². You could also get a shotgun which really helps if you know how to use it properly.
This is all great info! The thing a lot of people miss is that regardless of the microphones sensitivity, you will compensate with gain, effectively making them pick up the same amount of signal (and noise). Noise comes in all shapes and forms, yet people act like noise only happens in really high frequencies, only to be picked up by condensers, but that’s just not the case. Noise is full frequency, meaning the diaphragm, regardless of construction will pick it up. Some less than others, but again, it’s matched when the mics are gain-matched, which presumably everyone does when speaking into a microphone. You’re totally right though that diaphragm construction will make some microphones more sensitive and make them more accurate at picking up with less distortion. This is why calibration mics usually have a 2-3mm diaphragm. They are super accurate. That doesn’t mean they pick up more noise though ;)
Yo. It's not Snr its direct to indirect sound ratio. Indirect sound isnt "noise". When discussing snr noise referse to electronic noise and not enviormental noise.
1. Signal noise from Eletronics
2. Indirect sounds that is a function of source reflections
3. Environmental noise
That has nothing to do with source or electronics
While you’re correct that they are different types of noise, they both contribute to signal to noise ratio. Here’s a statement from an audio publication “In analog and digital communications, a signal-to-noise ratio, often written S/N or SNR, is a measure of the strength of the desired signal relative to background noise (undesired signal).”
Still, in untreated spaces, especially with sounds or noises coming from other rooms a dynamic mic is so much easier to handle, and much less work in Post. This is at least my experience.
Yeah for sure! The point is that this is entirely due to how people tend use them, not because of the technology.
More gain does not directly mean more noise, interestingly it means less noise for most preamps. Check the relevant video from Julian Krause!
Yeah I saw video! It’s interesting for sure. I’d be curious to see that principle over a variety of budgets
Nope, not at all. Your argument holds a lot of truth and solid reasoning. However, there's a reason why most mics on stage are dynamics.
Practically speaking, dynamic mics seem to have more of a falloff in terms of level. If both condensers and dynamic mics would translate amplitude completely linearly, it would be a different story.
Also, based on my experience, dynamic mics tend to deal better with me singing into them from a very close distance.
Using dynamic mics is not a panacea for bad acoustics in your recording space, but I've had a lot of success using them instead of condenser mics, especially when I was going for a dryer sound.
Thanks for the perspective! A couple of your points are talking purely about how they tend to be used, not how the tech actually functions from a physics standpoint.
For instance, neumann builds handheld condensers that are meant to for live sound to be sung into, so it comes down to design and how they TEND to be used. Ruggedness, ability to handle extreme temperatures, rain etc, and physical build also come into play for live sound.
But you're totally right, dynamics have more falloff (because the diaphragm is extremely close to the source). Proximity effect is based purely on capsule distance to the source and not based on capsule type.
Randy nobody explained microphones better to me, like ever...
Thanks for the kind words! :) I really appreciate it
Um.. decibels are on logarithm scale. 0.5 decibel is not small, it'll definitely be noticable.
I have quite a few condensers and dynamics, in a room with a lot a reverb or background noise I definitely would not be picking up most condenser microphones for recording in that situation. A condenser is generally designed to pick up every little detail of everything and they dynamic is designed to pick up what's directly in front of it and condensers are supposed to be used from a slight distance which gives them a more natural sound than having them really close which often sounds kind of wonky on a condenser. If you get something like a tlm 103 even at super low again it's picking up so much unwanted things it's unreal if you're not in a proper recording booth.
The bottom line in a less than ideal environment I don't think I would be grabbing a condenser mic or at least not most of them
Polar pattern is the only thing that determines the direction microphones pick up. A cardioid condenser and cardioid dynamic with similar polar patterns both only pick up what’s directly in front of them. Microphone capsule type can’t discriminate between voice and noise. This is where most people are led astray. Sound pressure levels are sound pressure levels and if they are gain matched, they are both picking up noise in the room equally.
Yes but that is not what i was getting at here, lower gain levels pick up less noise and a mic closer to your mouth will give you a much more of a voice to room noise ratio, the closer the mic to your mouth means your voice is way louder than any room noise and you can turn the gain down lower too so the room noise won't be as loud, generally you can get a dynamic closer to your mouth before it starts to sound funky or has too strong of a proximity effect. now my lauten ls 208 condenser is designed to be used more like a dynamic, you can bring it in very close and still get a prety natural sound, when i bring most condenser mics in close they start to sound boomy and muddy but a lto of dynamics still sound pretty normal 1-3 inch's from your mouth picking up way more voice than room noise.
@@randyrektor
I have used both and with the condenser mics I was ALWAYS chasing noise. When I switched to a dynamic mic ALL my problems were gone.
Could be any number of things causing this, but likely how you’re using them. People tend to gravitate to using dynamics closer than condensers. This instantly changes the signal to noise ratio. But you can do this with either mic.
I have made the opposite experience. I tried a bunch of different dynamic microphones (even the Shure SM7B) and ended up with the Lewitt LCT 440 Pure which is a condenser. There was this slight background hiss with every single dynamic mic and it's almost completely gone with the condenser. Might be the preamp of my audio interface but I use a Motu M4 and even tried a Rodecaster Duo which didn't really improve things. Well, and of course the condenser sounds better than all of the dynamic mics.
Get a pop filter or move your microphone somewhere that doesn't pick up your annoying P
please
No
@@randyrektor pretty please👉👈
SNR is not based on the noise of the environment, but is based on the noise created by the internal capacitors, resistors, etc. of a microphone.
each microphone will always capture background noises, (Diegetic Sounds) what makes dynamic a go-to for non-treated rooms is that dynamic microphone tends to capture "louder sounds" without the use of phantom power, so in laymen's terms, a dynamic microphone is useful when you don't have better preamps with you, so in this case you are using a sound devices which is one of the best preamps there is in consumer market.
as you notice, when you speak with your SM58 you won't notice the noise because the noise floor itself has been canceled, by the loudness of your voice it's there but we wouldn't notice it because we are more focused on your voice than the background noise, but then, once you record in silence, the diaphragm would always capture the loudest noise there is, and in this case music and whitenoises.
and lastly, a well-treated room is not about soundproofing it from unwanted outside noise, but making sure that you have well-balanced diffusers/reflectors bass traps around the room. using condenser microphones in an untreated room will only cause problems with early reflections (reverb) in which a dynamic microphone doesn't really capture reflection that much that's why it's mostly used by artists on stage for vocals even there' are dozens of people shouting from the audience area. but unless you are capturing instruments or vocal-specific frequencies then a condenser would be your choice,
That's why in the film especially in bigger production they rarely use shotgun microphones with long capsules and choose to use short ones, to avoid reflections that bounce through them.
Thanks for the comments, but there are a couple of incorrect points here. Signal to noise ratio is based on the noise floor which is made up of both acoustic and electrical noise. It's a combination of all of the noise in relation to the direct signal. This also includes reflections, etc. The noise floor is not 'cancelled' by speaking into the microphone. This would only happen if you had a compressor on the signal, which in my case, I did not. Otherwise the noise in the room is entirely fixed and cannot differentiate between voice and noise. The ambient noise is a physics property and will be picked up by any microphone just the same, bearing it's a cardioid polar pattern. While I understand where your points are coming from, they are almost all incorrect. I'd suggest checking out this thread on the topic - www.reddit.com/r/audioengineering/comments/untwmx/i_dont_get_it_why_are_dynamic_mics_better_than/
@@randyrektor good point, all I have are experienced in using both microphones for films and voiceovers and living in a very noisy environment with blank walls, that isn't treated , I encountered problems with condensers than with a dynamic especially well-pronounced frequencies that hits vocals which is really important on my end.
I actually disagree. Soundspeeds disproved this theory in his video "Polar Pattern or Microphone Type? Best for Reducing Reverb - Sound Speed". Dynamics actually do reject more of the distracting noise. I also tested this out myself and I have 2 videos proving that dynamics actually do reject more of the distracting noise around you. It's not 'just' bringing the mic up close or the polar pattern. Dynamics really do reject much of the ambient noise around you. I did a demonstration in a bathroom with 2 supercardiod mics (one condenser (Ethos), the other dynamic(XM8500). The Ethos picked up all the distracting noise around it while the XM8500 did not.
I appreciate the anecdotes and personal experience! That said, microphone manufacturers agree that this is not the case. Your experience may vary from mic to mic, but there is no inherent property that makes one transducer pickup less noise than another. That said, your experience and mic preferences are a great resource to make great recordings
I think it heavily depends on the title of your video though. When audio engineers everywhere say to people, use a dynamic if you have no sound treatment and people chatting around, there's viability in that. Dynamics pick up less of the annoying sounds around whereas condensers (being more detailed) pick up everything.@@randyrektor
The point is that the advice is flawed, outdated, and debunked. People hold onto it because the information is widely circulated, but that doesn’t make it accurate.
Interesting video and discussion. I can only say anecdotally, that in my recording space, a condenser microphone will pick up a faucet running on another floor, any cat or dog sound anywhere in the house, my wife on the phone 3 rooms away, or a car passing by in the street; while a dynamic mic, in the same circumstances, will at most pick up a dog bark. In your test, it might have been a better demo to use only the dryer in the next room for comparison, as I think music has a unique way of calling attention to itself, both subjectively in the listener's head, and in terms of frequency range. Just my .02.
Yeah thanks for weighing in! Solid point about the music 👌🏻👌🏻 I may have to take another pass at some of these tests
Smart people say dynamic mics are better for untreated spaces because they’ve experienced both and have learned the nuanced differences. There’s no real difference if your space is quiet like yours, but if you have loud neighbors or birds, a condenser picks up everything.
Sure does, but if your source (your voice for instance) if being recorded by both microphones, the dynamic will almost always require more gain. Once gain matched, they both pick up acoustic noise EXACTLY the same. The myth that dynamics somehow reject other sounds has been debunked over and over. Both dynamics and condensers use Mylar for their diaphragms. This means both are moved by SPL the same way. There’s no physical property that makes them “hear sound” differently.
Wrong again, pickup pattern is all.
If you’re referring to polar pattern, it contributes to acoustic rejection, yes
@@randyrektor contributes? It and the inverse square law are the 2 main determinants of SNR
Maybe you didn’t watch the video?
correct me if im wrong but what about EIN? EIN is essentially the self-noise of the preamp that you were describing. and iirc for there to be "no noise" from the preamp it has to be at most -129.6 dB. some audio interfaces get close to this number (example: motu m2 is -129 dB) with some even surpassing it (SSL 2, SSL 2+ has -130.5 dB EIN), both of those interfaces are within $200 so its reasonably priced. would you say a dynamic microphone is still justified this way or should i just go for a condenser
I think you’re totally on the money. Preamp noise is reallllly not a huge deal these days with the costs of good tech coming down. To answer your question, as other commenters have alluded to, it really comes down to how you intend to use the mic. What is your use case? Voice over, music?