The parts that really stood out to me, definitely were scenes like when he ask himself if he could have a life with Jean at dinner or when he goes to dinner with his ex girlfriend from Harvard and he is nervous and freaked out to an extent that we haven’t seen him before, or the very brief part where he breaks down crying and cry’s out that he just wants to be loved after one of his many murders. I think these brief moments that change his cold blooded interior to something else really catches my interest
Infinite Jest also does this near the end of the book, switching from 3rd person to 1st person. I agree that it is supposed to symbolize some sort of psychological break in the character.
Every bit of violence is needed, it shows how violence has been normalized to Patrick, how he can do all this crazy shit, kill a random Chinese man...put a rat in a girl....etc, he explains these acts like he explains his enjoyment for Whitney Houston. It shows how Patrick is losing his mind and cannot control his urges, and if you don't like reading these scenes, skip them, skip the chapter, nobody is forcing you, Bret is not trying to make the violence feel earned or valid, he is trying to make it seem without reasoning.... believe it or not, this is a good book.
I think Ellis is showing us the absolute core of the society we live. We’re all nurtured to accept the vile and horrific behaviour of the people in power. What’s more, we aren’t taught to connect with each other because governments can’t afford to have a connected society. Western Society is ultimately corrupt.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Hopefully people will get tired of living just for themselves, and maybe this western implosion can reverse. If you’re interested more in that sort of thing we’ll be doing some content on Michel Houellebecq soon - who arguably dives even deeper into this subject than Bret. Thanks for watching, and for the thoughtful comment!
The books take of Evelyn is a lot more disturbing and depressing to me than the movie. In the book it seems like she wants a connection and something more. She's just in the same place as Patrick of not being able to obtain it. Just, as far as we know, she doesnt try to fill those needs by killing people. Also, Patrick is a lot more overtly emotionally abusive to her in the book than in the movie. That being said, I think Reese Witherspoon playing it like she did was perfect. Especially for the tone of the movie.
Agree - Reese Witherspoon was hilarious in the movie. Definitely more fleshed out in the book, they probably had to reduce her down to comic relief in the movie just to fit everything else in. We were saying that for us - this was a rare example of a movie that wasn't worse than the material it was adapted from - at least it was pretty faithful to the spirit of the book.
Fun fact every time Patrick mentions a little girl it has either positive or neutral connotations! Seriously the zoo chapter has him do something terrible to a young boy but there’s not a single time where he hurts a little girl. One scene that stood out was him mentioning a 10 year old girl shopping for a scarf and jewelry and he remarks she had good style….. it’s just utterly bizarre coming from him but I guess Patrick cares emotionally for young girls.
In the book it wasn’t Jean he spared from the nail gun (even though he really did never kill her) and she doesn’t think it’s because as he wants a relationship. She leaves because she hears a voicemail from another woman and she thinks she is imposing on another relationship.
There is also a part where Patrick puts a dollar in the coffee cup of a college student that he perceived as homeless that to everyone else was a normal well dress college student. The student is confused that he put a dollar in her coffee. This is another indication Patrick’s reality is distorted as after he puts the dollar in the coffee cup the entire city looks like a dream. There is also a part where someone he talks to is a talking vagina.
What a lovely conversation. I think American Psycho is one of those stories that is just rife with interesting philosophical ideas, so that no matter how badly the story might be executed (like in a movie or a book or whatever) it sticks with you. I remember watching the movie with my flatmate in Glasgow for the first time and after it had ended I was like meh. I didnt find the ending satisfactory. But all this time later, especially having the chance to revisit this story through this episode of your podcast I came to appreciate the real depth and gravity of the ideas presented within. Of course, having lived a bit of life helped... for better or worse. Thanks for this, keep at it.
A post modern masterpiece: thought provoking, shocking, and absolutely hilarious. While I love the film, the book is FAR better, especially if you are able to appreciate the absurdist aspects. You can always listen to the audiobook if you don’t want to actually read entire chapters about Whitney Houston and various clothing brands. Either way, American Psycho is an incredible work of art, one which is able to make you laugh out loud and feel physically disgusted at the same time. While it’s more challenging than even things like War and Peace or Canterbury Tales, I recommend that everyone at least try to read it.
Who doesn’t want to listen to pages upon pages describing double-breasted wool suits and Whitney Houston?! We agree though. The book is better than the movie for sure…movie is great, albeit, too tame, but a fun watch. We definitely recommend the audiobook version too - it heightens the experience.
@@bannedbookclub Yes the audio book is great, although I wish it was read in christian bale's voice. Right now I'm working on a neural network which will replicate Bateman's voice after I train it on clips from the movie + clips of me emulating bateman's voice. Then from this network I'm going to create a free version of the audiobook which sounds like Christian Bale in the movie.
Being a fan of the film I wasn’t prepared for the novel. Written with the precision of a surgeon it cuts deep. I love your Instagram analogy here as a present day marker of the culture described in the book. I grew up in the 80’s and the background is spot on and the moral vacuum is as well. This is the school shooter’s handbook.
I adore the movie but the book is very boring at times with excruciating detail. There’s a chapter that’s 16 pages of him on a conference call trying to find place to have dinner
I think the trick of this novel is to not separate the obsession about style and the murders. The murders THEMSELVES are “stylish.” All of it is superficiality, deified. It’s because Bateman cannot know anything other than the race to something stylish so he can be observed being stylish. In the end, I think the sadness Bateman may feel is that he isn’t getting recognition for his elaborate murders. THAT is his regret. The murder descriptions go hand in hand with his skin care regimen description and his observations about Huey Lewis.
The book, like many provocative writers, is left to “interpretation,” if those acts occurred, or if they were just in his twisted mind, perhaps depending of what we think; tells something about our own psyche
I think I've heard BEE say in an interview that he doesn't know whether the events were supposed to be real or not and that he wasn't too interested about it either way. I kind of agree with him, its a portrait of a sad morally corrupted person either way.
That one chapter where Patrick is having a panic attack and is freaking out In downtown was my favorite because of how it’s structured. It’s 4 pages with no paragraph breaks and barely any sentences, it’s written like you’re in the head of a person suffering a major major panic attack.
great conversation ! regarding the point about the themes of nihilism being too overbearing potentially I took the nihilism being mainly directed at the upper class as the saving grace. I felt like jean particularly being the most human character and seeing the best in patrick even superfically to the point where patrick spares her was a surprisingly sweet moment, as well as the segment where patrick debates having a real relationship with jean which also touches on his true desires. I think patrick as a character can be seen as more of a poser reflection of his environment trying to fit in, maybe even pretending to be callous and cold and maybe even hallucinating alot of the murder and sex based on the movies he watches and immerses himself in, combined with drugs. I think that the book while having a grim outlook on humanity isnt too nihilistic to get its point across and more came across as the dangers of normalized narcissism by using the upper class as an example.
Phil Collin’s isn’t vapid pop. It’s pop but def not vapid. And fashion is art. He’s a huge and sensitive art appreciator. I love that part of the book. The food, the rules of dress, but he just puts an insane amount of weight on it.
I can’t help comparing American Psycho with Dostoevsky’s Notes from the Underground. Partially, because Ellis uses an excerpt from the novella to introduce the book, but also because we are stuck within the narrator’s head. I don’t think Ellis is trying to warn us. Bateman is a portrait of a type. There are people out there who are like Bateman, who think like Bateman but don’t kill people (assuming Bateman actually killed people). He’s manic, obsessed with status, materialistic, and completely self-interested. What makes matters worse is that Bateman lives in a culture that encourage selfish behavior. I believe in an innate human nature, but I also believe that the society that you live in can either lessen or enhance your darker impulses. Regarding the violence: Bateman’s violent acts are sadistic and reprehensible, but to be honest they were one of the main things that kept me reading. If Ellis wrote a book called Well Adjusted American Nice Guy, we just wouldn’t be interested. There’s something inside us that just can’t resist or are even attracted to gorey depictions of violence. It’s somehow cathartic…. Anyhow I liked the book. I’m not sure that I’d give it 5 stars, but I definitely wouldn’t give it one star.
I hope you see the irony in what you are saying about this book and the consumerism of the 80's and the consumerism of today. Never mind the narcissism of the 80's versus today. I would argue that both the narcissism and consumerism of today are way 'worse' than in the book or in the 'real' 1980's. Living in the age of social media, UA-cam and influencers not to mention the entitlement of generations post Gen-X. I would say those themes in the book are tame compared to today.
This is a rant, please don't read all of this if you don't want to, I just wanted to say all of this somewhere because I've been thinking about this novel a lot. I think American Psycho fails for me because it becomes a little too nihilistic for it's own good. Like you guys said, the violence is a little too much, but I think that's where the artistic merit of the book lies. Everything in the book is a little too much. All of the consumerism, the capitalism, the repetition, the brand names, the bands, the character names(and the confusion of the characters for other people) contextualise the world in which Patrick lives, but Ellis ends the novel by not depicting or even alluding to these social mores impacting Patrick's psyche. What I think American Psycho fails in is an ultimate critique of the society in which Patrick exists and, rather, favours a mere critique of Patrick himself. Obviously, at no point throughout the novel does Ellis present Patrick positively, but he doesn't ever extricate the facets of Patrick's personality and specifically link them to the society around him. This means that he can't blame the world around Patrick for how Patrick has become, in my opinion, undermining its notoriety as a social satire. The reader doesn't know or understand the reasoning behind Patrick's dedication to violence and is therefore forced to theorise for themselves. People can say that this is Ellis's way of recontextualising the conversation of morality vs. society onto the reader but, in my opinion, it becomes a little luck-lustre and, dare I say it, lazy. The story of American Psycho, to me, reads as a character living one casual, capitalist and hegemonic life whilst also living one intense, deranged, murderous life without any presented psychological links between these two facets of personality. Certainly, this total separation distorts the humanity of the character, painting his true identity as undoubtedly corrupt, but that condemnation is ever-present through the extreme violence already. So, in my opinion, American Psycho would have benefited from either a more distinct presentation of Patrick's reasoning, without forcing it onto the reader, or it would have benefited from less violence. But, as I have said, everything in American Psycho is "too much". Redacting that violence, in my opinion, would undermine American Psycho's artistic intent entirely. So, I think it needs more of the "psychological" aspects to make it a really strong "satire", both being things that it already claims to convey but, in my opinion, really lacks in. That, to me, is where it gets its reputation as being really nihilist. Not because it presents really strong nihilistic arguments, but because it forces readers to make deductions and assumptions about the society Patrick lives in(and we also live in) without really presenting this society one way or another. To me, the true nihilism of American Psycho is that it exists to entirely avoid providing a satirical message towards society, it just makes the reader assume the satire.
Agree, it would have been nice to have, even slightly, more of a window into Patrick's motivations. Sure its exaggerated for comic/dramatic purposes, but it still seems like a big gap to leap from 'consumer society is vapid' to 'im gonna murder everyone'. Of course we could interpret all the violence as fantasy, maybe it's just his own social dysfunction projecting out on the people he wants to connect with but can't. And maybe you're right, that it's wrong to characterize the whole thing as a satire. Maybe were in a world that can no longer be satirized - maybe the novel should just be looked at as a scary ride to enjoy and nothing more. Still, I find myself looking at certain people today and seeing flickers of Bateman. So maybe its a fun ride that happens to have some social/critical utility too. Really thought provoking response by the way, thanks. You should do video essays.
If you haven’t, I recommend watching The film. it’s WAY better in my opinion. The film does better what the book dose. It’s an actual social satire. Take for when Bateman and his yuppie colleagues are showing off their business cards. The cause for concern isn’t for something like the spelling being incorrect, but for rather how the cards are designs and the fonts the cards are lettered with. Or like when Luis, (The gay man) is more concerned about where Bateman got the bag he used to carry Paul Allen/Owen’s corpse from, an actually answering it. Another example is when Luis guesses the type of clothing Bateman wears when they all wear the same clothing, in which Luis just used as an excuse to touch Bateman.
I think Patrick is the society though. He is more than just a cog in the machine but part of the system made up of millions of souless people just like Patrick that make consumer society so hollow and ultimately dangerous for everyone
What kills me about this book is the lack of consistency of Patrick as a character. He says he hates gay people but he goes out of his way to coerce women to have intimate acts with one another.
Interesting that he would make that distinction. Clearly he’s insane and doesn’t have much criteria for making decisions other than whatever overwhelming impulse he has next. I don’t think he’s even so much interested in sex beyond using it as a means to dominate/humiliate others. Maybe his homophobic and racist tendencies are partly cover ups for his own deep insecurity…
That is not rare in homophobes. Many homophobic men find gay men to be disgusting and for sex between lesbians they find suitably attractive as arousing. There is inconsistency in the principles of homophobia as it is also usually colored by misogyny, but hardly inconsistent in character.
This book is banned? My 11th grade english teacher, a very nice lady, made us read passages from it in class. The lunch with Bethany chapter was reading material for the essay question on our final exam. But hey, I live in Canada. We're a bit more chill when it comes to art.
I couldn't imagine why a teacher would get any kid to read this in class. I'm not saying I'm for censorship but I don't think it benefits kids to have them analyze American Psycho.
Hang on. I'm like a minute in but I already have an issue. You say the book uses senseless violence to complain about senseless violence. I'd say that it obviously doesn't since a book cannot perpetrate actual violence (unless it somehow glorifies or incites it, I guess, but this doesn't). If a book is merely depicting violence, it can condemn actual violence without contradiction or hypocrisy. I like the podcast btw, but I think that form of criticism you use at first just irks me for reasons too boring to explain. When you talk about it later I got the impression that it wasn't the violence per se that concerned you, but rather just the repetition of it. Repetition of anything can become a problem in a book, but in this case I guess the repetition is the point, and maybe _too much_ repetition is the point. From about 39:00 you mention that the book leaves one without answers or hope. It reminded me that David Foster Wallace said exactly that (in the David Lipsky book I think) and it was his biggest criticism of AP, and I think Ellis more broadly. Although he did say he did found Less than zero "very powerful".
I like AP and consider it a piece of art, but with any piece of art I have to ask myself what it adds up to in the end. There's a lot of merit in the issues the book is playing with, and I get that it needed a certain amount of over the top violence to give that discussion weight. I just think the same points could have been made without some of the details that were included. At some points the violence felt like a diminishing return for me, but that all depends on your personal threshold for violence and what world view you bring with you into the book. But again, even if it is a brilliant piece of art, I wonder if its ultimately a good thing for the world. I love the movie Scarface, another stylishly done satire about greed, America, and the dangers of selfishness - but what is its impact at the end of the day? Mostly it influenced a generation of dumb angry kids to want to be like Tony Montana. AP and Scarface both have something important to say, but the artists bear some responsibility for the people who will misinterpret the work - regardless of intent. My hunch is that AP is a righteous exercise in lashing out against nihilism, I just hope it doesn't inadvertently glamorize it for some of the lost disaffected people who might read it. - Nick
Agreed. I believe it is the whole point of the book to show what kind of world vacuous materialism and consumerism creates, that could easily act as a shield for such dissilusioned and twisted people such as PB. A real life example is ofc Jeff Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell and all their minions. The novel blends the mundanity of his privileged existence with his warped excitement of committing horrible deeds.
As a Christian the book perfectly illustrates what happens when people turn away from God and embrace themselves as their own God. More care given to things and status and none given to others. The ending might feel like a let down, that someone so abhorrent just gets away with it, but I tell you this, God allows the wicked to do as they please. Why? So they can be judged.
The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good."
A lot of people in the beginning hated the writer for being misogynist and messed up in the head. But in reality he was exposing the dangers of capitalism on how it could impact the rich and poor. Today America is in a much worse version of capitalism where everything is unaffordable. No wonder why we have mental health issues and school shootings because people are loosing their minds. They want to release energy and feel alive. It's a life where people can't have meaningful relationships.
It's not capitalism though, which factually has had a positive impact on society. People starved to death and died of illness much more often in the past because they were poor. Capitalism has saved many lives actually. The problem is that what we have now is barely capitalism at all. The market is not free! What we are left with is corporatism (too big to fail, tax breaks and subsidised corporations that don't innovate.) Cronyism and elitism is the current state of things, which does not represent the ideals of capitalism.
I feel like this book is about a man who daybreams about committing heiness acts towards women in order to escape his monotonous lifestyle. He's definitely an unreliable narrator.
I am of the opinion the PB is perhaps the most unreliable narrator in all of american fiction. In fact, I think all the torture amd murder he mentions are the dillusions and hallucinations of a cocaine addict fully at the mercy of cocaine induced psychosis.
I think when books are this good they aren't any one thing. They become like a mirror reflecting a bunch of different things. What's great is how many different levels it can be enjoyed on - as a good thriller, exciting narrative, portrait of life, social commentary, comedy - a lot of it depends on what the reader is bringing with them.
This fuckin' book here...ha ha... (as far as psychological-thrillers go, has me chasing the dragon in finding another book that can make me feel the way that this one did).... one of my movie director friends turned me on to this upcoming author at a recent Melvins concert in St. Louis.... he had a copy of this book "Witchwood Forest" in his car out in the parking lot because they are attempting to make a movie about it.... it really flipped my wig & rocked my brain.... ABSOLUTELY-WILD... ua-cam.com/video/EYE4ZZXwpoE/v-deo.html
The parts that really stood out to me, definitely were scenes like when he ask himself if he could have a life with Jean at dinner or when he goes to dinner with his ex girlfriend from Harvard and he is nervous and freaked out to an extent that we haven’t seen him before, or the very brief part where he breaks down crying and cry’s out that he just wants to be loved after one of his many murders. I think these brief moments that change his cold blooded interior to something else really catches my interest
The book is not entirely in the 1st person. For a brief part , when he is in the middle of his biggest killing spree the book switches to 3rd person.
I thought that was an odd section. Any ideas about that exception?
@@chaosmos24 I believe it is meant to show us he has multiple personalities.
, he sees Patrick separate from himself.
Infinite Jest also does this near the end of the book, switching from 3rd person to 1st person. I agree that it is supposed to symbolize some sort of psychological break in the character.
Every bit of violence is needed, it shows how violence has been normalized to Patrick, how he can do all this crazy shit, kill a random Chinese man...put a rat in a girl....etc, he explains these acts like he explains his enjoyment for Whitney Houston. It shows how Patrick is losing his mind and cannot control his urges, and if you don't like reading these scenes, skip them, skip the chapter, nobody is forcing you, Bret is not trying to make the violence feel earned or valid, he is trying to make it seem without reasoning.... believe it or not, this is a good book.
I think Ellis is showing us the absolute core of the society we live. We’re all nurtured to accept the vile and horrific behaviour of the people in power. What’s more, we aren’t taught to connect with each other because governments can’t afford to have a connected society. Western Society is ultimately corrupt.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Hopefully people will get tired of living just for themselves, and maybe this western implosion can reverse. If you’re interested more in that sort of thing we’ll be doing some content on Michel Houellebecq soon - who arguably dives even deeper into this subject than Bret. Thanks for watching, and for the thoughtful comment!
@@bannedbookclub I like the content you post and look forward to watching H in the near future
The books take of Evelyn is a lot more disturbing and depressing to me than the movie. In the book it seems like she wants a connection and something more. She's just in the same place as Patrick of not being able to obtain it. Just, as far as we know, she doesnt try to fill those needs by killing people. Also, Patrick is a lot more overtly emotionally abusive to her in the book than in the movie.
That being said, I think Reese Witherspoon playing it like she did was perfect. Especially for the tone of the movie.
Agree - Reese Witherspoon was hilarious in the movie. Definitely more fleshed out in the book, they probably had to reduce her down to comic relief in the movie just to fit everything else in. We were saying that for us - this was a rare example of a movie that wasn't worse than the material it was adapted from - at least it was pretty faithful to the spirit of the book.
Fun fact every time Patrick mentions a little girl it has either positive or neutral connotations! Seriously the zoo chapter has him do something terrible to a young boy but there’s not a single time where he hurts a little girl. One scene that stood out was him mentioning a 10 year old girl shopping for a scarf and jewelry and he remarks she had good style….. it’s just utterly bizarre coming from him but I guess Patrick cares emotionally for young girls.
This is a really interesting observation that we didn’t pay much attention to… thanks for this comment! Got to go re-read that chapter!
@@bannedbookclub
Of course 😤
What do you mean? Patrick is a misogynist. I didn't understand your comment.
In the book it wasn’t Jean he spared from the nail gun (even though he really did never kill her) and she doesn’t think it’s because as he wants a relationship. She leaves because she hears a voicemail from another woman and she thinks she is imposing on another relationship.
She’s right this is not a “horror” novel but it certainly is a “horrific” novel.
There is also a part where Patrick puts a dollar in the coffee cup of a college student that he perceived as homeless that to everyone else was a normal well dress college student. The student is confused that he put a dollar in her coffee. This is another indication Patrick’s reality is distorted as after he puts the dollar in the coffee cup the entire city looks like a dream. There is also a part where someone he talks to is a talking vagina.
“I didn’t know… it was full.”
What a lovely conversation. I think American Psycho is one of those stories that is just rife with interesting philosophical ideas, so that no matter how badly the story might be executed (like in a movie or a book or whatever) it sticks with you. I remember watching the movie with my flatmate in Glasgow for the first time and after it had ended I was like meh. I didnt find the ending satisfactory. But all this time later, especially having the chance to revisit this story through this episode of your podcast I came to appreciate the real depth and gravity of the ideas presented within. Of course, having lived a bit of life helped... for better or worse. Thanks for this, keep at it.
We are so glad you liked it! It is an important read… cheers!
Loved your Whole review...if a book is banned it's worth reading ❣️
Thank you so much! 🙏🏻
A post modern masterpiece: thought provoking, shocking, and absolutely hilarious. While I love the film, the book is FAR better, especially if you are able to appreciate the absurdist aspects. You can always listen to the audiobook if you don’t want to actually read entire chapters about Whitney Houston and various clothing brands. Either way, American Psycho is an incredible work of art, one which is able to make you laugh out loud and feel physically disgusted at the same time.
While it’s more challenging than even things like War and Peace or Canterbury Tales, I recommend that everyone at least try to read it.
Who doesn’t want to listen to pages upon pages describing double-breasted wool suits and Whitney Houston?!
We agree though. The book is better than the movie for sure…movie is great, albeit, too tame, but a fun watch. We definitely recommend the audiobook version too - it heightens the experience.
@@bannedbookclub Yes the audio book is great, although I wish it was read in christian bale's voice. Right now I'm working on a neural network which will replicate Bateman's voice after I train it on clips from the movie + clips of me emulating bateman's voice. Then from this network I'm going to create a free version of the audiobook which sounds like Christian Bale in the movie.
Being a fan of the film I wasn’t prepared for the novel. Written with the precision of a surgeon it cuts deep. I love your Instagram analogy here as a present day marker of the culture described in the book. I grew up in the 80’s and the background is spot on and the moral vacuum is as well.
This is the school shooter’s handbook.
I adore the movie but the book is very boring at times with excruciating detail. There’s a chapter that’s 16 pages of him on a conference call trying to find place to have dinner
You guys offer fantastic and thoughtful opinions on the novel!
I’ll definitely be back for more of your reviews
I think the trick of this novel is to not separate the obsession about style and the murders. The murders THEMSELVES are “stylish.” All of it is superficiality, deified. It’s because Bateman cannot know anything other than the race to something stylish so he can be observed being stylish. In the end, I think the sadness Bateman may feel is that he isn’t getting recognition for his elaborate murders. THAT is his regret. The murder descriptions go hand in hand with his skin care regimen description and his observations about Huey Lewis.
The book, like many provocative writers, is left to “interpretation,” if those acts occurred, or if they were just in his twisted mind, perhaps depending of what we think; tells something about our own psyche
I think I've heard BEE say in an interview that he doesn't know whether the events were supposed to be real or not and that he wasn't too interested about it either way. I kind of agree with him, its a portrait of a sad morally corrupted person either way.
Tells us everything about BEE's psyche.
That one chapter where Patrick is having a panic attack and is freaking out In downtown was my favorite because of how it’s structured. It’s 4 pages with no paragraph breaks and barely any sentences, it’s written like you’re in the head of a person suffering a major major panic attack.
great conversation ! regarding the point about the themes of nihilism being too overbearing potentially I took the nihilism being mainly directed at the upper class as the saving grace. I felt like jean particularly being the most human character and seeing the best in patrick even superfically to the point where patrick spares her was a surprisingly sweet moment, as well as the segment where patrick debates having a real relationship with jean which also touches on his true desires. I think patrick as a character can be seen as more of a poser reflection of his environment trying to fit in, maybe even pretending to be callous and cold and maybe even hallucinating alot of the murder and sex based on the movies he watches and immerses himself in, combined with drugs. I think that the book while having a grim outlook on humanity isnt too nihilistic to get its point across and more came across as the dangers of normalized narcissism by using the upper class as an example.
No one ever notices how he always mentions the patty winter's show and how the topics always get more obscene over time!
This is an awesome analysis.
Phil Collin’s isn’t vapid pop. It’s pop but def not vapid. And fashion is art. He’s a huge and sensitive art appreciator. I love that part of the book. The food, the rules of dress, but he just puts an insane amount of weight on it.
You guys should read “my absolute darling”
I can’t help comparing American Psycho with Dostoevsky’s Notes from the Underground. Partially, because Ellis uses an excerpt from the novella to introduce the book, but also because we are stuck within the narrator’s head. I don’t think Ellis is trying to warn us. Bateman is a portrait of a type. There are people out there who are like Bateman, who think like Bateman but don’t kill people (assuming Bateman actually killed people). He’s manic, obsessed with status, materialistic, and completely self-interested. What makes matters worse is that Bateman lives in a culture that encourage selfish behavior. I believe in an innate human nature, but I also believe that the society that you live in can either lessen or enhance your darker impulses.
Regarding the violence: Bateman’s violent acts are sadistic and reprehensible, but to be honest they were one of the main things that kept me reading. If Ellis wrote a book called Well Adjusted American Nice Guy, we just wouldn’t be interested. There’s something inside us that just can’t resist or are even attracted to gorey depictions of violence. It’s somehow cathartic…. Anyhow I liked the book. I’m not sure that I’d give it 5 stars, but I definitely wouldn’t give it one star.
Nice review but what does Paul Owen aka Allen think
I hope you see the irony in what you are saying about this book and the consumerism of the 80's and the consumerism of today. Never mind the narcissism of the 80's versus today. I would argue that both the narcissism and consumerism of today are way 'worse' than in the book or in the 'real' 1980's. Living in the age of social media, UA-cam and influencers not to mention the entitlement of generations post Gen-X. I would say those themes in the book are tame compared to today.
We agree! Consumerism and narcissism has only gotten worse and it’s so evident in todays society. A depressing truth…
Oh yeah it's absolutely at breaking point today. We are witnessing it's implosion now
This is a rant, please don't read all of this if you don't want to, I just wanted to say all of this somewhere because I've been thinking about this novel a lot.
I think American Psycho fails for me because it becomes a little too nihilistic for it's own good.
Like you guys said, the violence is a little too much, but I think that's where the artistic merit of the book lies. Everything in the book is a little too much. All of the consumerism, the capitalism, the repetition, the brand names, the bands, the character names(and the confusion of the characters for other people) contextualise the world in which Patrick lives, but Ellis ends the novel by not depicting or even alluding to these social mores impacting Patrick's psyche.
What I think American Psycho fails in is an ultimate critique of the society in which Patrick exists and, rather, favours a mere critique of Patrick himself. Obviously, at no point throughout the novel does Ellis present Patrick positively, but he doesn't ever extricate the facets of Patrick's personality and specifically link them to the society around him. This means that he can't blame the world around Patrick for how Patrick has become, in my opinion, undermining its notoriety as a social satire.
The reader doesn't know or understand the reasoning behind Patrick's dedication to violence and is therefore forced to theorise for themselves. People can say that this is Ellis's way of recontextualising the conversation of morality vs. society onto the reader but, in my opinion, it becomes a little luck-lustre and, dare I say it, lazy.
The story of American Psycho, to me, reads as a character living one casual, capitalist and hegemonic life whilst also living one intense, deranged, murderous life without any presented psychological links between these two facets of personality. Certainly, this total separation distorts the humanity of the character, painting his true identity as undoubtedly corrupt, but that condemnation is ever-present through the extreme violence already. So, in my opinion, American Psycho would have benefited from either a more distinct presentation of Patrick's reasoning, without forcing it onto the reader, or it would have benefited from less violence.
But, as I have said, everything in American Psycho is "too much". Redacting that violence, in my opinion, would undermine American Psycho's artistic intent entirely. So, I think it needs more of the "psychological" aspects to make it a really strong "satire", both being things that it already claims to convey but, in my opinion, really lacks in. That, to me, is where it gets its reputation as being really nihilist. Not because it presents really strong nihilistic arguments, but because it forces readers to make deductions and assumptions about the society Patrick lives in(and we also live in) without really presenting this society one way or another.
To me, the true nihilism of American Psycho is that it exists to entirely avoid providing a satirical message towards society, it just makes the reader assume the satire.
Agree, it would have been nice to have, even slightly, more of a window into Patrick's motivations. Sure its exaggerated for comic/dramatic purposes, but it still seems like a big gap to leap from 'consumer society is vapid' to 'im gonna murder everyone'. Of course we could interpret all the violence as fantasy, maybe it's just his own social dysfunction projecting out on the people he wants to connect with but can't. And maybe you're right, that it's wrong to characterize the whole thing as a satire. Maybe were in a world that can no longer be satirized - maybe the novel should just be looked at as a scary ride to enjoy and nothing more. Still, I find myself looking at certain people today and seeing flickers of Bateman. So maybe its a fun ride that happens to have some social/critical utility too. Really thought provoking response by the way, thanks. You should do video essays.
So would you say the film is better?
If you haven’t, I recommend watching The film. it’s WAY better in my opinion.
The film does better what the book dose.
It’s an actual social satire.
Take for when Bateman and his yuppie colleagues are showing off their business cards. The cause for concern isn’t for something like the spelling being incorrect, but for rather how the cards are designs and the fonts the cards are lettered with.
Or like when Luis, (The gay man) is more concerned about where Bateman got the bag he used to carry Paul Allen/Owen’s corpse from, an actually answering it.
Another example is when Luis guesses the type of clothing Bateman wears when they all wear the same clothing, in which Luis just used as an excuse to touch Bateman.
I think Patrick is the society though. He is more than just a cog in the machine but part of the system made up of millions of souless people just like Patrick that make consumer society so hollow and ultimately dangerous for everyone
Damn is this podcast not active anymore?
i literally just did my senior project on this book omg
Awesome! 👏
: )
I’d like to read it.
What kills me about this book is the lack of consistency of Patrick as a character. He says he hates gay people but he goes out of his way to coerce women to have intimate acts with one another.
Interesting that he would make that distinction. Clearly he’s insane and doesn’t have much criteria for making decisions other than whatever overwhelming impulse he has next. I don’t think he’s even so much interested in sex beyond using it as a means to dominate/humiliate others. Maybe his homophobic and racist tendencies are partly cover ups for his own deep insecurity…
That is not rare in homophobes. Many homophobic men find gay men to be disgusting and for sex between lesbians they find suitably attractive as arousing. There is inconsistency in the principles of homophobia as it is also usually colored by misogyny, but hardly inconsistent in character.
Very based book
This book is banned? My 11th grade english teacher, a very nice lady, made us read passages from it in class. The lunch with Bethany chapter was reading material for the essay question on our final exam. But hey, I live in Canada. We're a bit more chill when it comes to art.
I couldn't imagine why a teacher would get any kid to read this in class. I'm not saying I'm for censorship but I don't think it benefits kids to have them analyze American Psycho.
@@avivastudios2311 So then, what book would you have them read?
@@GuarmaRummy I actually think that English class is pretty useless overall, I wouldn't force kids to analyze anything.
@@avivastudios2311 Truly a moronic reply in this context LOL
@@GuarmaRummy How come?
Hang on. I'm like a minute in but I already have an issue. You say the book uses senseless violence to complain about senseless violence. I'd say that it obviously doesn't since a book cannot perpetrate actual violence (unless it somehow glorifies or incites it, I guess, but this doesn't).
If a book is merely depicting violence, it can condemn actual violence without contradiction or hypocrisy. I like the podcast btw, but I think that form of criticism you use at first just irks me for reasons too boring to explain.
When you talk about it later I got the impression that it wasn't the violence per se that concerned you, but rather just the repetition of it. Repetition of anything can become a problem in a book, but in this case I guess the repetition is the point, and maybe _too much_ repetition is the point.
From about 39:00 you mention that the book leaves one without answers or hope. It reminded me that David Foster Wallace said exactly that (in the David Lipsky book I think) and it was his biggest criticism of AP, and I think Ellis more broadly. Although he did say he did found Less than zero "very powerful".
I like AP and consider it a piece of art, but with any piece of art I have to ask myself what it adds up to in the end. There's a lot of merit in the issues the book is playing with, and I get that it needed a certain amount of over the top violence to give that discussion weight. I just think the same points could have been made without some of the details that were included. At some points the violence felt like a diminishing return for me, but that all depends on your personal threshold for violence and what world view you bring with you into the book. But again, even if it is a brilliant piece of art, I wonder if its ultimately a good thing for the world. I love the movie Scarface, another stylishly done satire about greed, America, and the dangers of selfishness - but what is its impact at the end of the day? Mostly it influenced a generation of dumb angry kids to want to be like Tony Montana. AP and Scarface both have something important to say, but the artists bear some responsibility for the people who will misinterpret the work - regardless of intent. My hunch is that AP is a righteous exercise in lashing out against nihilism, I just hope it doesn't inadvertently glamorize it for some of the lost disaffected people who might read it. - Nick
Agreed. I believe it is the whole point of the book to show what kind of world vacuous materialism and consumerism creates, that could easily act as a shield for such dissilusioned and twisted people such as PB. A real life example is ofc Jeff Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell and all their minions. The novel blends the mundanity of his privileged existence with his warped excitement of committing horrible deeds.
I always thought Patrick killed the wrong guy lol
I'm here for this
🥂
As a Christian the book perfectly illustrates what happens when people turn away from God and embrace themselves as their own God. More care given to things and status and none given to others. The ending might feel like a let down, that someone so abhorrent just gets away with it, but I tell you this, God allows the wicked to do as they please. Why? So they can be judged.
And so we tori head spin on
Does the guy have to constantly interrupt her!!!? Let her fucking speak
This book is so sick 😫 but I love it!
You either get sucked in to keep reading or you give up! 🫣
What a mentally well man the roaring 20s
Impressive. Very nice. Let's see Paul Allen's book review.
Daisy mmm
What a way to completely miss the point of the entire book.. 👏
Huh?
The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good."
A lot of people in the beginning hated the writer for being misogynist and messed up in the head. But in reality he was exposing the dangers of capitalism on how it could impact the rich and poor. Today America is in a much worse version of capitalism where everything is unaffordable. No wonder why we have mental health issues and school shootings because people are loosing their minds. They want to release energy and feel alive. It's a life where people can't have meaningful relationships.
It's not capitalism though, which factually has had a positive impact on society. People starved to death and died of illness much more often in the past because they were poor. Capitalism has saved many lives actually. The problem is that what we have now is barely capitalism at all. The market is not free! What we are left with is corporatism (too big to fail, tax breaks and subsidised corporations that don't innovate.) Cronyism and elitism is the current state of things, which does not represent the ideals of capitalism.
I feel like this book is about a man who daybreams about committing heiness acts towards women in order to escape his monotonous lifestyle. He's definitely an unreliable narrator.
I am of the opinion the PB is perhaps the most unreliable narrator in all of american fiction. In fact, I think all the torture amd murder he mentions are the dillusions and hallucinations of a cocaine addict fully at the mercy of cocaine induced psychosis.
My take: this is a psychological thriller as opposed to a commentary on society.
I think when books are this good they aren't any one thing. They become like a mirror reflecting a bunch of different things. What's great is how many different levels it can be enjoyed on - as a good thriller, exciting narrative, portrait of life, social commentary, comedy - a lot of it depends on what the reader is bringing with them.
It's not a satire it's a fantasy.
it's basically The Hobbit
It's a great comedy of manners.
i wanna be like patrick bateman when i grow up
hol up
you may have missed the point of the book
A commodity?
A miserable, souless, passenger. Enjoy...
This fuckin' book here...ha ha... (as far as psychological-thrillers go, has me chasing the dragon in finding another book that can make me feel the way that this one did).... one of my movie director friends turned me on to this upcoming author at a recent Melvins concert in St. Louis.... he had a copy of this book "Witchwood Forest" in his car out in the parking lot because they are attempting to make a movie about it.... it really flipped my wig & rocked my brain.... ABSOLUTELY-WILD... ua-cam.com/video/EYE4ZZXwpoE/v-deo.html
Thanks for the recommendation, will check it out