5' climber here. I think many inexperienced shorter climbers have difficulty telling the difference between something that is actually morphologically harder (e.g. more tenuous moves a taller climber can just reach past, or not being able to physically span wide holds) and something that just seems harder but actually isn't and is just a deficiency in their technique and skills. And although the advantages and disadvantages between tall and short balance out somewhat, grades are still the consensus of the average size human and are going to feel off at either extreme end of the height spectrum.
There are often multiple ways to do a problem. Climbing is contrived by its very nature. Let’s face it, the easiest way up a boulder is often by found by walking around the backside. Why choose a specific line up a boulder or cliff face? It is because of the challenge. It isn’t right or wrong if you use a kneepad or kneebar, use a big fan, climb 10’ right of a climbing line, do double toe hooks off the lip of a boulder to start a problem, or start 2 moves into a problem where the FA didn’t start. If you choose to do a problem differently than the original FA, it is just a different route or problem variation. Do the problem the easy way (with a kneepad) and the hard way(without a kneepad). If you want to claim the rating the FA gave to the problem it should be climbed as close to possible like the FA climbed it. Boasting you sent a problem or route of a certain grade but clearly climbed it in a different manner than the FA might be a little disingenuous.
Lying to yourself if you cheat a send. Would Joe Brown be seen with a fan ? No but I can understand the debate and reasons put forwards in this soggy peaty land. Yes @Tomrandle you cannot down grade a route if using all the tech to send it that no-one else can afford and claim it's an easy grade. Can see Tom with a small battery operated leaf blower tubes up to blow down his wrists onto his hands as he's crimping.
Tall climbers: has the occasional huge advantage of being able to reach things. Commonly has the disadvantage of poorer leverage and higher weight. Short climbers: Has the occasional huge disadvantage of not being able to reach. Commonly has the advantage of better leverage and lower weight. In other words: The advantage of tall climbers is very visible and their disadvantage not so visible ("a strength issue", which it kind of is), and the disadvantage of short climbers is very visible, while the advantage is not so visible ("they are strong", which they kind of are).
The advantage of a taller climber also just looks more like "cheating" (for lack of a better word) than the advantage of a short climber. For example, reaching past crux holds vs being strong enough to use the crux holds in a novel way. The former feels like you're essentially not even doing the problem (since many boulders are literally just about one single move) whereas the latter sometimes even seems cooler than the normal beta.
Yeah, that last one is an interesting one being 6’7” (2m) tall. I think it’s generally easier until you get into really hard bouldering/tiny holds, my fit weight is just always going to be over 200lbs (90kg). But I also almost always use different beta, a lower foot, sequence change, further heel, and I can actually easily get bogged down sorting which beta I should use because I often have too many options. But I still get upset when people see me reach through a bad hold and sigh or scoff. It’s like, all holds are effectively smaller for me, y’all skip shitty holds when you can too. Put on stilts, arm extenders and a 70 lbs weight vest and see how friggin easy it is. There’s often “that one move” where its really helpful, but I carry it around for all of them.
To be fair to you, the small vs tall debate seems to be more about whether it's crap to be 5ft vs 6ft and a scale inbetween. Not that people tend to specify. I think most people would agree that being very tall like yourself is definitely a disadvantage, as the 'advantages' of being tall drop off dramatically versus weight as you get much taller than average. (Or so it seems, I'm 5ft1 so have no idea)
As a 6 foot 7 inch climber. I don't know what makes me hate bouldering more, really low sit starts or people scoffing at me and saying it is easier climbing at my height.
Im not that tall, but I honestly do feel that my height can be an advantage and disadvantage sometimes, it just depends on the problem. There are some problems that are extremely crunched up and a lot easier for a short person to do, but there are also problems where you’re very stretched out. It just depends really. And I am 6’1” btw
In defense of the fan: My impression is that a fan just equalizes the playing field. If you go out on a day with great conditions, a fan isn't going to make a climb any easier. A fan just widens the margin of workable conditions, and as someone who spends a lot of time and money on climbing/driving to climb, I feel it is one of the best investments I've ever made. Furthermore, as a climber living in Philadelphia, where it is always humid like it is in the UK, I feel like having a fan just enables me to extend the narrow season for the grit style climbing near me. It even has also enabled me to climb pretty hard in the summer, which is otherwise exceedingly difficult. I really don't see using a fan downgrading any boulders, because, again, they wont be helpful on the great conditions days. If using a fan is aid, then so is living in arid environment like Utah or Colorado where conditions are often prime.
Interesting! I was wondering, do you fan your hands or do you fan the holds on the boulder? Because in that case it wouldn't be possible for sportclimbing :0
I live in Ohio and I was thinking the same thing, they only assume climbing happens out West in the US which kind of annoys me. Climbing is still a sport in the Midwest and areas without mountains, it is just not quite as prevalent.
@@minkabuh didn't even think of this the number of times I've had to go old school and only bring a cloth with me instead of a crash pad... the joys of living in the city
Turned my head hearing this as well. I wear Skwamas all day, everyday. Are they the best at say, slabs? definatly not. But cant shell out 150 for each style of climbing. "get used to one" shoe. solid tip
The same good conditions you get with fans, you can also get with a bit of luck. And the grading is based on the difficulty of the climb in the best possible conditions (or at least that's what I was always told). So, fans (unlike kneepads) don't influence the grade, in my opinion. They make it easier to get "lucky" with the conditions, but they don't change the difficulty of the climb (and hence the grade) in any other way than a dry, windy winter day would.
Ooh we're not sure we'd agree on this. So many routes and boulders get done in sub optimal conditions when people are time pressured. Part of us suspects that downgrades by repeaters could even be mostly down to this factor, rather than crap beta!
@@LatticeTraining I'm not sure I agree with this ;) There's thousands of people sending routes (from polished 6a slabs to overhanging 9s) all around the world in all kind of conditions, so it's absolutely impossible to state with certainty that most people grade their sends in sub optimal conditions. And on the other hand, grade perception is not only about height, conditions or beta, there are lots of other variables (I don't know even if this word exists in english lol) that we never think about when we give an opinion, p.ex. being left or right handed, sleeping quality the night before the send and many others... Aaaaah, I love this game ;)
@@LatticeTraining My point isn't that boulders don't get downgraded because of conditions. Of course, they do. My point is that those boulders would eventually get downgraded anyways, fans or no fans, because eventually someone will get lucky with the conditions. The obvious exceptions to this are dingy caves full of seeping holds that don’t EVER get dry - except with fans. In that case, I agree: fans do change the grade. I guess I’m just not as used to that here in Austria as you guys in the UK. 😜
@@LatticeTraining if you don't take into account perfect conditions, a v4 in a heavy rainy day probably goes up some grades. that brings the question if there is a flood and you climb hard boulder under water it counts?
@@LatticeTraining so then because someone climbs something on the worst conditions, others are forced to have that same experience or if they have a chance to try in better conditions that’s cheating? How powerful are fans really? Dry skin is dry skin. Take a fan on a hot day or just be out in the winter on a dry day, what’s the difference? Also, can I purposely go to a boulder with slopers in the summer and then upgrade it after I send because I was dumb enough to torture myself in the heat? Even if I know it’s actually easier and most people say hey do it in the winter? Seems like it’s all part of the “problem solving” and I’ve heard a saying that goes “smarter not harder”.
Tall boi checking in for my take on height. 6’3” with +3 ape index. Slab and vertical climbing suites me perfectly, but anything overhanging has always been my Achilles heel. I’ve climbed multiple V6s and a V7 on indoor slab and vertical walls, but I was stuck at the occasional V3 max on overhanging walls until here recently. In my personal opinion, height gives a great advantage on technical problems/routes but is detrimental on overhanging walls unless you train specifically to make up for the higher strength and core tension demands that extra height brings. If it tells you anything, I had gotten the V7 slab problem before I got my very first overhanging V4 problem. Do what you will with my personal experiences, but know that I would gladly trade some height if it made overhanging problems more manageable
Agreed. I’m 6’2” / 188cm with same arm span and even though my grade spread between techy vert and overhung isn’t as wide, I definitely feel the need to train specifically for overhang.
193cm here and hate slab and vert climbing! Roofs are by far my favourite then around 70 degrees overhanging. The less steep it is the harder if find it... Could be down to my super low mobility and naturally strong core? Either way it's always confused me a bit...
I agree 100%….I also think that more often than not climbing steers more toward vertical terrain so that’s why I think that taller climbers have an advantage most of the time. As a shorter climber it’s always a little annoying when someone who has little skill is able to simply jump onto a problem or route and simply reach and pull, versus you who have to establish balance, footwork, etc…Seen on many occasions less talented climbers complete routes simply because of their height. And not saying that no skill is present, but you know when you observe, the difference between someone who clearly has a superior skill set yet is unable to complete something as easily as someone who simply has reach on their side, as the ability to grab holds often times allow you to develop balance and makes the moves that much easier.
As a taller climber who's only been doing it for 18 months or so, I don't deny I have some advantages, but I've also found getting up over the top of long legs/thigh bones for dynos, and getting super compressed in dicey bouldering situations when I need a high foot really challenging. And of course sit starts, compression moves, trying to keep body tension and controlling the swing of long limbs. It's another one of those things where I think people are too keen to point out why something was easy for that other person but totally hard for them. Climbers love excuses after all. I just think we need to recognise tall and short climbers have advantages and disadvantages and get over it.
Tall climbers gets way more injured, have they skin destroyed way faster, have all the holds smaller, gets destroyed on underclings, have to compress way harder on compression since they are not as extended and can't rely on passive strenght, heavy weight means bending the rubber more so it's harder on edges (but better for friction slab), have worse leverage, their longer arms takes them away from the wall on overhangs making the weight super hard to put on the feet. There are no tall climber (more than 190cm) performing at a high level except meiji narasaki and jon glassberg but there are tons of short and very short people.
Sometimes height/lack of reach just makes moves or even a route/boulder a bit harder. Whether this makes it a harder grade from that person’s perspective is up to them. I actually loved when a gym used to occasionally grade something “v5, v6 if you’re short”. It was hilarious. I climb with someone who is 4’10” and I’m 5’9” so for them to be so much below the average male height, there have definitely been times where it’s harder and more impressive for them to have to pull out a harder move or a dyno where most people wouldn’t. Might not change the grade but can be helpful to our communication to say it might “feel like” a harder/easier grade to each of us based on our knowledge of each other’s perspectives.
When Ollie says that 'he cant think of any situations where a move is more dangerous for taller climbers than for shorter climbers' I would be very interested to know if he considered injury in that concept.
6’5 climber here. I’ve accepted I have to get exceptionally strong to climb at the highest level in overhanging terrain. Right not I get pumped out or spit out of overhangs. I think tall is subjective. Tall to me is 6’3+. I’m pretty sure front levers are just impossible for some of us. Would like to hear input from other long boys!
Front levers definitely arent impossible for us. 201 cm (6"7' i guess) long boi here. I'm not there yet, but i have no doubts about being able to do front levers, if i properly trained for them.
When you consider that the tall vs small debate includes women, it means the scale starts at about 5ft, so 'tall' is more like 5ft 10 really. (past 6'3 is probably the same disadvantage, if not worse, than being
Funny how the cost of fan's seems to be a limiter for Tom, but "Bring at least 4 pairs of shoes to the crag" doesn't sound ironic? Fan sponsors, come at me!
I feel strong enough for my height but not mobile enough! Btw, I'm a data scientist analysing a climber dataset (for work!): for men, height was negatively correlated with V grade and for women, arm span (not ape index or height) was the strongest +ve correlation AND weight had an even stronger (though still quite noisy) +ve correlation with V grade (ladies: get stronger!)
@@shakeysugar4382 I got the dataset from reddit but it has since been taken down. I can certainly get it somewhere public -- maybe as a kaggle dataset.
@@facelesstraveler the dataset also includes a bunch of sport climbers! I just focussed on the boulderers for now. The writeup will be on the blog, engineering.tableau.com -- within a month?
The correlation that was strongest that I loved was the harder V grades included more that climbed both indoors and outdoors! There were also obvious correlations like: climbed/trained more/more often, could do more pull ups/push ups/longer Lsits, could do max hangs/pull ups with more weight, and have been climbing longer (with that effect maxing out at ~4-5yrs)
Some sit starts just feel impossible for taller people when not being able the get their butt off the ground (see Wideboyz vs Lattice: the system board challenge problem 3 for reference).
It is just the nature of bouldering. A climber sees a problem and starts to analyze it. He sees a few weaknesses and start to formulate a solution. It is how the first climbing shoe evolved or the first crashpad or chalkbags etc. It does take away a bit of the adventurous side of things but as long as you're not disturbing others (drones leafblowers) then everybody gets to decide for himself what level of adventure they want to accept. If you don't want any tech then you'll have to go in naked. the blowers and such do not change the difficulty of a climb. It just optimizes conditions. just as you optimize conditions when resting before a big climbing day.
Idk, how someone might say, that climbing it's easier when you're tall, since in word cup the tallest climber is usually Adam Ondra, who is 1,86m with similar arm reach. In sports like basketball or volleyball where it is actually better to be taller, most of players have 2m+. There should not be a question like+ : is it better to be tall? There should be a question like: why it is not good to be tall?
@@LatticeTraining I THINK in some situations height could affect grade of route, but is the grade really that important, until get to high levels? What I really want is a drone, that can place protection when or in event of a fall making climbing safer? However not for everyone, but accidents happen!
The tidbit about fans, ladders, extra gear, etc is interesting to me to think of as "unfair." Essentially these are either altering conditions, allowing for extra practice on sections, or helping out in some way that you can replicate by just having more time. Is it then "unfair" to have a remote job that allows you to spend weeks/months at a time at a crag to acclimate to the rock, try the boulder over and over again, etc? Doing a climb in a single session after having weeks to acclimate to the rock on other climbs is vastly different than doing a climb in a single session after driving 6 hours to climb for the weekend, yet this is rarely discussed
Tom "idk bout people bringing a fan to the crag cuz of cost and some climbers might not be able to afford it." Also Tom "When i project something hard I bring 4 or 5 pairs of shoes." Brooo shoes are sooo expensive lol I've only ever used 1 pair and I've climbed for under 2 years.
Go get a job man how are you that broke. Shoes go on sale all the time I've gotten $200 shoes for half price before you just need to be smart and look harder
@@AMM1998 i think you are missing the irony of Tom being concerned about accessibility while bringing over a grand of shoes to the crag to smash out a project. Ur right though ur assumption of me not having a job or buying my shoes at full price is spot on /s
yeh a single pair of good shoes are more expensive than a fan. Its not that a climber cant afford a fan/ladder, its that a climber cba bringing/lugging them to the crag. in which case more power to the fan/ladder cilmbers
The ONLY complaint I have about having long legs is sit starts or some high step moves where you need to pistol squat up to a high hold. Having to squat so deep when you don’t quite have the arm reach just means that you really need to make sure your flexibility and mobility in hips, hamstrings, even ankles allows you to push through those cramped somewhat weak positions. It’s def possible and I’ve gotten better, but it still doesn’t feel good at times :,)
Heyho thanks for the entertaining rant. 2 subjects for next rant. 1. Multiple pads on sitstarts for short climbers or starting tucked. 2. putting out boulder videos with really terrible technic
I am 6' with a +1 ape and think I have it easier than shorter climbers for sure most of the time. It bites me though on sit starts, weird body compression or contortions in corners and getting really high feet. I have a friend that is about 3" shorter and has a 0 ape. While I have always been a grade or 2 better, he can do so many weird tight problems that I just flat out cannot get into position. I don't have the added flexibility to get my taller self folded up nearly as well as he can. Most problems though we are able to climb them basically the same or I will have the advantage.
Nice rant! One more thing to consider. Both of you have done careless torque? Would you do it without pads? Does having pads make Carless easier as it becomes relatively safe? Being old (lot older than Tom) I'm all for pads. A dream problem Careless just two problems too old and not good enough!
Short/tall: when Hojer won the bouldering season, he was repeatedly told it's because he's tall and it's easy for him. Then he asked in return what the average height of WC competitors is. How come so few climbers above 185cm take part in international comps?
The biggest advantage shorter climbers have imo is less weight and also less likely to get injuries due to having a smaller weight. Your fingers are so much more injury prone if you are dragging a 200lb body up a wall
@@LatticeTraining I agree! I think it's the main benefit of starting climbing young because you begin at such a light bodyweight; natural bodily growth in height and weight is relatively slow so it's like young climbers can progressively overload their tissues over the years if a safe manner, without even trying
Im a FPV drone lover befor starting to climb but I also feel you shouldnt be making artificial noise while in nature. If camping, hiking or outdoor climbing, you dont take generators, fans, etc. You take your hiking bag with everything you need for the week hiking and climbing while leaving all electronics at home. If people cant hear the birds any more, your to loud. Growing up hiking and camping this was just a unspoken rule of the bush of australia
What do you mean by “Blanco cheater heel?” Are you referring to the Anasazi Blancos? Do the baggy heels on those shoes offer an advantage? I’d always heard people complain about them.
Pretty sure the side of the blanco heel had a large ridge (not fully rounded like most heels) which you could use for extra leverage on a marginal heel hook. Please correct me if I’m wrong!
@@AMM1998 The idea was that you have an advantage if you use that certain shoe, and about wether its fair to people potentially gaining an advantage by paying more money for a shoe. But yeh I disagree with that since all shoes offer unique positives.
@@Adam_Wheeler yeah whoever is arguing that point isn't exactly the smartest. Of course if you pay more money you get a better shoe. The same can be said for any sport. You can spend more money to increase your performance up until a certain threshold until you start to see diminishing returns and the extra money you're spending isn't increasing your performance. Look at cycling. Pro teams all use proprietary materials and classified designs to get an edge over their competition. The sport itself is still fair. Like you said, the Blanco heel maybe amazing for a ton of people but for others it will be awful. In my opinion advancements and shoe technology is expected and shouldn't be viewed in the same light as something like bringing fans to the Crag.
Topics for the next rant: 1) the grade everyone should be able to reach 2) is bouldering harder than sport, sport than trad? (all futile, but always worth a rant innit)
Hey Lattice, Love this. Genuine question/concern: following the recent documentary 'Light' and your experience with RED-S, do you believe climbers nowadays (especially girls) are pushing the strength/weight ratio to unhealthy levels? It would be great to have your view on this. Keep ranting!
Of course man. Go look at the average world cup lead comp in qualifying. A ton of girls are clearly underweight. I've actually heard some team kids at my gym talking about how light Laura agora is it was honestly pretty sad to see
@@AMM1998 Very true, and it happens in many other sports I guess. The saddest thing is that I don't think it can be prevented... You can see these things, but it is impossible to set a universal criteria for a healthy weight for comps and such.
@@willempye73 no you can't use bmi as a prerequisite to compete as some people are just naturally closer to the lower limit while others are in the middle so they don't need to modify their diet. I honestly have no idea how you would implement a system that ensures everyone is at a safe weight, yet it is still a level playing field
@@markharris2562 I agree. I don't think there's a system in existence that would Make sure nobody is on a destructive in terms of weight while ensuring fairness. I think it's the responsibility of the climbing community and the coaches / friends that are close to these climbers that are underweight to speak up
Topic for the next rant: kneepads, crackgloves, tape, shoes: what is aid? Till know nobody really uses objecive, technical criteria to distinguish wich is aid and wich is not. I think most people just go with what they grew up with and that actually (trigger :D) shoes are aid but the other things arent!
I had a session on jerrys roof. I am pretty tall but was having a lot of issue with the swing on the crux move. There was a smaller women working the climb as well and she could get this relaly interwetsing high foot and static the crux. I tried that method and didn't fit at all. Plus im probably 15-20KG heavier. Point is I oculd do that crux move if im strong enough but not because im tall enough, and a good short climber will work out a good beta and a good tall climber will work out a good beta. Thats why climbing is so cool!
As a short climber (5'2" with a -0.5" ape index) I approve of Ollie's message! 😅 Actually it's quite interesting because I always thought perhaps the only way a short climber had a distinct advantage over a tall climber was on cramped moves like sit starts and better grip on smaller holds because of smaller fingers. And although I'm short and often experience problems where I can do the hard moves off the start only to be stymied by a long throw at the end, I hadn't thought about how psychologically short climbers may experience more fear because of long reaches.
A big thing for the height thing i would say is: indoor gym problems almost always favor taller climbers especially in that v3-v8 zone where most climbers land.
That’s a really big gap 😂 but I do agree, there can be some though into corners that can be tough, or compressions that can be difficult indoors, which is becoming more popular with the use of volumes.
More thoughts on knee pads? Never used one so do they add a lot of friction to knee bars as compared to skin or maybe just some jeans/track pants? Do they fall into tech most people don’t have so they might degrade a route? Is Silence 10A without a knee pad 😂
Short climbers aren’t necessarily lighter, those smaller fingers can’t reach the holds as easily as their taller counterparts and don’t have the ability to use their size as a crutch, that’s unfair😀
@@alexgalays910 At the beginner/intermediate levels strength isn’t as much of a necessity and being tall gives you the ability to always reach the next hold, which negates any loss in skill and balance. You can be a crap climber skill wise, but finish routes by lumbering along reaching, and pulling. I see it everyday, tall guys, who by all accounts aren’t that skilled, but are strong enough to reach the next hold and pull hard. If you’re short, simp,y reaching the next hold and having to establish balance is a problem that tall climbers simply don’t have to deal with. Especially on vertical climbs.
If I go out to the mountains I don't want to hear a leaf blower, and would be pretty annoyed if I did. Fortunately it is pretty dry in Banff and Kananaskis unless it has rained recently or the snow is melting.
I didn't know fans were considered such advanced technology lol, its just an ingenious way to go around an uncomfortable thing that impedes yourclimbing
No matter what the sport or pursuit, there will always be the people who will do anything to succeed, and technology will always be one of the answers. Similarly, there will always be people who are hesitant to embrace technological advancement, especially because it somehow “threatens” the sanctity of things they are passionate about. But here’s the problem: it doesn’t matter. If it helps, people will do it. So why be the stick in the mud? The demand will make it cheaper and better, and more widely available. Then, people will find another way to get an edge.
Yeah, it is harder for shorter climbers. I'm about average for a climber - My shorter climbing partners are way stronger than me, and often better than me, and often can't do the same moves that I can do, simply because of reach. When the holds are close enough together, though, those short motherfuckers are unstoppable.
And what about the ones that they just want to go to the crag and just relax and have some climbing should they insist all this fuzz ?. I believe the percentage of people that will climb something just because they used a fan is very small . Probably a fan will not make you climb your project in most cases.
Tom, your comments about multiple pairs of shoes completely contradict your earlier comments about using loads of gadgets. Owning 5 pairs of £100+ shoes all in useable condition is really not realistic for very many people at all. Saying take £500 worth of shoes on one hand and then saying no to using a £50 ladder or a £50 makita fan because it’s not available to most people makes no sense at all. This inconsistency implies you were just arguing for the sake of it in the first section.
Fan? And leafblowers?!? I could watch that segment and genuinely not know of it was an April fool or not. Leafblower to the crag is just bizarre as hell.
@@slapthesloper The problem for taller people with high feet is generally that the foot gets quite close to the hand and you have to fit into a smaller box which is not solved by flexibility
..if you're short that high foot becomes even higher. And wouldn't most climbers trade being able to do sit starts for having to do less moves per route? It's hardly a big loss.
@@Setarkos91 No one is saying it's easier for 2m+ climbers (I'm certainly not), they have their own set of disadvantages. The debate lies in the average height range, so whether it's easier if you're 5'2 or 5'10. Not 4'8 or 6'5
Are you kidding me? If someone brings a leaf blower to the crag they're not leaving with it. Not bc I care if it's easier, but bc I'm not listening to it run. I'm not climbing in the Peak district, so there's that.
My probolem with the technology is not so much the side of fair or not fair, but on the experience side. For me going outdoor is also always finding connection with nature again. Having more time, beeing on one thing for longer periods, resting more, having more stillness around. Also, respecting nature and animals and not disturbing it to much with noises, music, fans etc. I think its a fine line to walk, on one side its amazing to push our limits or even make someting possible (climbing in summer), but i feel in general our culture lacks connection to earth and nature. And i always thought of bouldering as an attractive way, to move a person through gym climbing to maybe beeing interested in experiencing nature again. Making it all tech based with filming, tools etc. again would make me kind of sad.
E bikes to the crag! That's one hell of a first world problem, man. For me big part of the climbing experience is the adventure, trekking, approach. Knee pads are fair play.
With regards to fans & leaf blowers: Strongman competitors use tacky to grab altas stones. Do you think it would be acceptable for climbers to use tacky to improve grip on slopers?
Also I have not climbed in the UK or anywhere in Europe, but not everywhere in the states is perfect conditions. I am from Ohio and we have horrible weather probably the most inconsistent in the world 😂😂 now Ik Ohio is not a known place for climbing in the US, but it still takes place here it is just not as big as it is out West.
4:33 E-bike woh hold on, no it's NOT good for the environment Ollie Cycling on a normal bike is good for the environment. You've got all the negative effects of electric production and lithium battery production to deal with first ! Get a proper bike get fit for walk in's, strengthens tendons etc. For that long walk in with gear !
Recently I foud (as a female) a new excuse: It's impossible to do it that way, because my center of gravity is too low :-) (and of course I am always too short).
The best boots cost a stack. Fortunately, a solo without a mat has more status than a solo with one. Big Air with 8 mats is laughable. The less gear you use, the more status. Like that French guy doing 8B at Font, barefoot. Can we have a video that shows Ollie on rock ?
We have few outstanding problems you need to hike to for hours on good trails, camping not allowed. Bikes have been used for ages getting there. Actually mountainbikes are even used scouting for new crags a lot.
If I can afford 25 cams, and stitch up a crack, does that make it easier? No, it just means that I'm a fool and paid for, then drug up 25 cams. People bringing in extra kit to make their experience better, doesn't degrade the climb. I always go as light as possible, so I personally wouldnt drag in a ladder or fan, but to each their own.
I'd like to see one of these bringing in some of the other team members on gendered Vs non-gendered climbing competitions. I get the feeling an increasing number of spectators would like to see non-gendered comps. But I'm less sure on the practicalities of it. And weather its just as simple as adapting the problems to the strengths of the competitors, as the setters do atm. Or if it's far more complex than that. I don't think (or least wouldn't like to think) it's a case of men are better climbers than women.
No chalk, no climbing shoes is the only real way to grade a route. Everything else is using technology to help you and will eventually get easier with time and better technology. If you want a stable grade for a climb, you need to NCNS send it.
Finally someone agrees with me that taller climbers have an advantage!!! More often than not if two people start climbing at the same time and one is significantly taller, the taller climber is going to seemingly make quicker strides because of what Ollie said. When you’re tall you generally have the ability to reach the next hold and that in itself provides a level of security that we shorter climbers don’t have. So when you’re short you have to cultivate better technique since you don’t have the extra length to simply reach, secure, then pull on the hold, or balance yourself on the hold. And that’s not saying that taller climbers are rubbish, but sometimes you can have a better climber unable to send a problem or a route that the taller climber is able to simply because of their length. So personally I look at a persons skill set, ability to sustain through muscle endurance, creativity on the climb through the use of various techniques, and all around skill set, more so than their simple ability to finish a climb, when determining who I think is a better climber.
I think he just means "cheater" heel, as in a heel hook that takes advantage of the baggy space in the shoe. The rubber forms over the hold, especially if its a spikey hold. Then the shoe does a lot of the work for you.
@@LatticeTraining we put rubber on our feet though, its no different to that I guess... rubber on the backs of the hands for cracks too... In my opinion if it can pass as an item of clothing it should be in. (not that I'm good enough to benefit from anything of the like!)
@@gerhardh4055 if gloves were any good im sure there would be atleast 1 company making them. and i dont think gluing rubber to your fingers counts as clothing :P
but in all the other sports i do there is a rule book with clearly stated guidelines and rules put together by a governing body... then everyone's opinion is irrelevant :)
You’re totally missing the difference between knee bars and knee pads. Knee pads are a new and optional development, one that was not available back in the day. You need to be specific rather than just saying ‘knee bars’
@@marcosjuan3142 exactly! He’s not really very tall and yet he looks like a giant in comp line ups. If you put Ondra next to elite athletes from a sport where height really does matter he would be one of, if not the shortest. For example: Basketball or high jump where mean heights are 201cm and 195cm.
I'll just give you my two cents, as I'm not for shure a top notch boulderer and definitely not a tall one, 169 cm + 1ape (I don't know how much it is in hamburgers and pop tarts). I consider that, given the same weight/power ratio, the taller climber (ore the one with more positive ape index) is in advantage. Yes, I'm as tall as a lot of pro climbers, but I'm missing some critical cm in my ape index!
Typical short climber rage by Ollie there. The truth is most harder climbs are better fitted for shorter (ie lighter) climbers. Reachy moves are an outlier, if you think you can't send because of a reachy move you have the choice to just go climb anything else. On the other hand, as you go up in the grades, small holds just cannot be avoided. The first two female climbers to do 9b are respectively 154 cm and 153 cm. 10 year old kids who have climbed for less than a year regularly make the news for sending 8b or harder routes. Tomoa Narasaki who is undisputably the best indoor boulderer at the moment is 170 cm. Daniel Woods who did all the hardest boulders outdoors is 170 cm as well. Alex Megos is 173 cm and has climbed 9c. These are all below average heights. Just because Ondra is considered the best route climber in the world and he's 185 cm doesn't mean being tall is an advantage. His strength comes from plenty other factors, mostly technique, flexibility and mental fortitude. So please, stop with the short climber mentality. Even though some climbs might be out of reach, most will be doable and you will have an easier time doing them than someone who is 40 kg heavier, trust me.
5' climber here. I think many inexperienced shorter climbers have difficulty telling the difference between something that is actually morphologically harder (e.g. more tenuous moves a taller climber can just reach past, or not being able to physically span wide holds) and something that just seems harder but actually isn't and is just a deficiency in their technique and skills.
And although the advantages and disadvantages between tall and short balance out somewhat, grades are still the consensus of the average size human and are going to feel off at either extreme end of the height spectrum.
There are often multiple ways to do a problem.
Climbing is contrived by its very nature.
Let’s face it, the easiest way up a boulder is often by found by walking around the backside.
Why choose a specific line up a boulder or cliff face? It is because of the challenge.
It isn’t right or wrong if you use a kneepad or kneebar, use a big fan, climb 10’ right of a climbing line, do double toe hooks off the lip of a boulder to start a problem, or start 2 moves into a problem where the FA didn’t start.
If you choose to do a problem differently than the original FA, it is just a different route or problem variation.
Do the problem the easy way (with a kneepad) and the hard way(without a kneepad).
If you want to claim the rating the FA gave to the problem it should be climbed as close to possible like the FA climbed it.
Boasting you sent a problem or route of a certain grade but clearly climbed it in a different manner than the FA might be a little disingenuous.
This
Lying to yourself if you cheat a send.
Would Joe Brown be seen with a fan ? No but I can understand the debate and reasons put forwards in this soggy peaty land. Yes @Tomrandle you cannot down grade a route if using all the tech to send it that no-one else can afford and claim it's an easy grade. Can see Tom with a small battery operated leaf blower tubes up to blow down his wrists onto his hands as he's crimping.
Tall climbers: has the occasional huge advantage of being able to reach things. Commonly has the disadvantage of poorer leverage and higher weight.
Short climbers: Has the occasional huge disadvantage of not being able to reach. Commonly has the advantage of better leverage and lower weight.
In other words: The advantage of tall climbers is very visible and their disadvantage not so visible ("a strength issue", which it kind of is), and the disadvantage of short climbers is very visible, while the advantage is not so visible ("they are strong", which they kind of are).
The advantage of a taller climber also just looks more like "cheating" (for lack of a better word) than the advantage of a short climber. For example, reaching past crux holds vs being strong enough to use the crux holds in a novel way. The former feels like you're essentially not even doing the problem (since many boulders are literally just about one single move) whereas the latter sometimes even seems cooler than the normal beta.
It's also easier to look cool when you're small and need more setup moves :)
Anyway, best explanation I've read.
You missed that taller climbers constantly have to make less moves to cover the same length of rock.
Yeah, that last one is an interesting one being 6’7” (2m) tall. I think it’s generally easier until you get into really hard bouldering/tiny holds, my fit weight is just always going to be over 200lbs (90kg). But I also almost always use different beta, a lower foot, sequence change, further heel, and I can actually easily get bogged down sorting which beta I should use because I often have too many options. But I still get upset when people see me reach through a bad hold and sigh or scoff. It’s like, all holds are effectively smaller for me, y’all skip shitty holds when you can too. Put on stilts, arm extenders and a 70 lbs weight vest and see how friggin easy it is. There’s often “that one move” where its really helpful, but I carry it around for all of them.
We also can't train as much because small crimps just destroy our fingers for days.
To be fair to you, the small vs tall debate seems to be more about whether it's crap to be 5ft vs 6ft and a scale inbetween. Not that people tend to specify. I think most people would agree that being very tall like yourself is definitely a disadvantage, as the 'advantages' of being tall drop off dramatically versus weight as you get much taller than average. (Or so it seems, I'm 5ft1 so have no idea)
I weight the same without the 2m reach, thin climbers have it better :')
As a 6 foot 7 inch climber. I don't know what makes me hate bouldering more, really low sit starts or people scoffing at me and saying it is easier climbing at my height.
Im not that tall, but I honestly do feel that my height can be an advantage and disadvantage sometimes, it just depends on the problem. There are some problems that are extremely crunched up and a lot easier for a short person to do, but there are also problems where you’re very stretched out. It just depends really. And I am 6’1” btw
In defense of the fan:
My impression is that a fan just equalizes the playing field. If you go out on a day with great conditions, a fan isn't going to make a climb any easier. A fan just widens the margin of workable conditions, and as someone who spends a lot of time and money on climbing/driving to climb, I feel it is one of the best investments I've ever made. Furthermore, as a climber living in Philadelphia, where it is always humid like it is in the UK, I feel like having a fan just enables me to extend the narrow season for the grit style climbing near me. It even has also enabled me to climb pretty hard in the summer, which is otherwise exceedingly difficult. I really don't see using a fan downgrading any boulders, because, again, they wont be helpful on the great conditions days. If using a fan is aid, then so is living in arid environment like Utah or Colorado where conditions are often prime.
totaly agreed
thats the answer
Interesting! I was wondering, do you fan your hands or do you fan the holds on the boulder? Because in that case it wouldn't be possible for sportclimbing :0
I live in Ohio and I was thinking the same thing, they only assume climbing happens out West in the US which kind of annoys me. Climbing is still a sport in the Midwest and areas without mountains, it is just not quite as prevalent.
Tom, your idea of a ton of different shoes is similar to bringing a fan. Not everyone can afford that many shoes
And not everyone can afford (or want to afford) a car to bring that much equipment.
Yeah, most of Tom's stances seemed self-defeating. Ollie was a voice of reason
@@minkabuh didn't even think of this the number of times I've had to go old school and only bring a cloth with me instead of a crash pad... the joys of living in the city
Turned my head hearing this as well. I wear Skwamas all day, everyday. Are they the best at say, slabs? definatly not. But cant shell out 150 for each style of climbing.
"get used to one" shoe. solid tip
That struck me as a really 'interesting' thing to say
The same good conditions you get with fans, you can also get with a bit of luck. And the grading is based on the difficulty of the climb in the best possible conditions (or at least that's what I was always told). So, fans (unlike kneepads) don't influence the grade, in my opinion. They make it easier to get "lucky" with the conditions, but they don't change the difficulty of the climb (and hence the grade) in any other way than a dry, windy winter day would.
Ooh we're not sure we'd agree on this. So many routes and boulders get done in sub optimal conditions when people are time pressured. Part of us suspects that downgrades by repeaters could even be mostly down to this factor, rather than crap beta!
@@LatticeTraining I'm not sure I agree with this ;)
There's thousands of people sending routes (from polished 6a slabs to overhanging 9s) all around the world in all kind of conditions, so it's absolutely impossible to state with certainty that most people grade their sends in sub optimal conditions.
And on the other hand, grade perception is not only about height, conditions or beta, there are lots of other variables (I don't know even if this word exists in english lol) that we never think about when we give an opinion, p.ex. being left or right handed, sleeping quality the night before the send and many others...
Aaaaah, I love this game ;)
@@LatticeTraining My point isn't that boulders don't get downgraded because of conditions. Of course, they do. My point is that those boulders would eventually get downgraded anyways, fans or no fans, because eventually someone will get lucky with the conditions. The obvious exceptions to this are dingy caves full of seeping holds that don’t EVER get dry - except with fans. In that case, I agree: fans do change the grade. I guess I’m just not as used to that here in Austria as you guys in the UK. 😜
@@LatticeTraining if you don't take into account perfect conditions, a v4 in a heavy rainy day probably goes up some grades. that brings the question if there is a flood and you climb hard boulder under water it counts?
@@LatticeTraining so then because someone climbs something on the worst conditions, others are forced to have that same experience or if they have a chance to try in better conditions that’s cheating?
How powerful are fans really? Dry skin is dry skin. Take a fan on a hot day or just be out in the winter on a dry day, what’s the difference?
Also, can I purposely go to a boulder with slopers in the summer and then upgrade it after I send because I was dumb enough to torture myself in the heat? Even if I know it’s actually easier and most people say hey do it in the winter? Seems like it’s all part of the “problem solving” and I’ve heard a saying that goes “smarter not harder”.
you need to start collecting neck length data from climbers, this is an incredibly important and overlooked attribute imo
Ha, on point!
I honestly have used my head to smear so many times on high volumes because my neck is long lol 😂
Tall boi checking in for my take on height. 6’3” with +3 ape index. Slab and vertical climbing suites me perfectly, but anything overhanging has always been my Achilles heel. I’ve climbed multiple V6s and a V7 on indoor slab and vertical walls, but I was stuck at the occasional V3 max on overhanging walls until here recently. In my personal opinion, height gives a great advantage on technical problems/routes but is detrimental on overhanging walls unless you train specifically to make up for the higher strength and core tension demands that extra height brings. If it tells you anything, I had gotten the V7 slab problem before I got my very first overhanging V4 problem. Do what you will with my personal experiences, but know that I would gladly trade some height if it made overhanging problems more manageable
Agreed. I’m 6’2” / 188cm with same arm span and even though my grade spread between techy vert and overhung isn’t as wide, I definitely feel the need to train specifically for overhang.
193cm here and hate slab and vert climbing! Roofs are by far my favourite then around 70 degrees overhanging. The less steep it is the harder if find it... Could be down to my super low mobility and naturally strong core? Either way it's always confused me a bit...
Bushy FPV yeah I should add I’ve always had decent mobility, okay core, weak arms
@@TheDodgerPlays think it’s a mobility thing as I’m pretty light too. Good to hear some other cases from tall climbers
I agree 100%….I also think that more often than not climbing steers more toward vertical terrain so that’s why I think that taller climbers have an advantage most of the time. As a shorter climber it’s always a little annoying when someone who has little skill is able to simply jump onto a problem or route and simply reach and pull, versus you who have to establish balance, footwork, etc…Seen on many occasions less talented climbers complete routes simply because of their height. And not saying that no skill is present, but you know when you observe, the difference between someone who clearly has a superior skill set yet is unable to complete something as easily as someone who simply has reach on their side, as the ability to grab holds often times allow you to develop balance and makes the moves that much easier.
As a taller climber who's only been doing it for 18 months or so, I don't deny I have some advantages, but I've also found getting up over the top of long legs/thigh bones for dynos, and getting super compressed in dicey bouldering situations when I need a high foot really challenging.
And of course sit starts, compression moves, trying to keep body tension and controlling the swing of long limbs.
It's another one of those things where I think people are too keen to point out why something was easy for that other person but totally hard for them. Climbers love excuses after all.
I just think we need to recognise tall and short climbers have advantages and disadvantages and get over it.
Tall climbers gets way more injured, have they skin destroyed way faster, have all the holds smaller, gets destroyed on underclings, have to compress way harder on compression since they are not as extended and can't rely on passive strenght, heavy weight means bending the rubber more so it's harder on edges (but better for friction slab), have worse leverage, their longer arms takes them away from the wall on overhangs making the weight super hard to put on the feet. There are no tall climber (more than 190cm) performing at a high level except meiji narasaki and jon glassberg but there are tons of short and very short people.
Even Meichi is like 186 cm, not 190+
@@maginkub ah you are right ! so only Jon Glassberg then.... and Toby Saxton who climbed several V15 at 193cm
Sometimes height/lack of reach just makes moves or even a route/boulder a bit harder. Whether this makes it a harder grade from that person’s perspective is up to them. I actually loved when a gym used to occasionally grade something “v5, v6 if you’re short”. It was hilarious.
I climb with someone who is 4’10” and I’m 5’9” so for them to be so much below the average male height, there have definitely been times where it’s harder and more impressive for them to have to pull out a harder move or a dyno where most people wouldn’t. Might not change the grade but can be helpful to our communication to say it might “feel like” a harder/easier grade to each of us based on our knowledge of each other’s perspectives.
When Ollie says that 'he cant think of any situations where a move is more dangerous for taller climbers than for shorter climbers' I would be very interested to know if he considered injury in that concept.
6’5 climber here. I’ve accepted I have to get exceptionally strong to climb at the highest level in overhanging terrain. Right not I get pumped out or spit out of overhangs. I think tall is subjective. Tall to me is 6’3+. I’m pretty sure front levers are just impossible for some of us. Would like to hear input from other long boys!
Front levers definitely arent impossible for us. 201 cm (6"7' i guess) long boi here. I'm not there yet, but i have no doubts about being able to do front levers, if i properly trained for them.
I agree mate. 6'7 100kgs. I'll ever manage a muscle up, I'll be the happiest bunny
When you consider that the tall vs small debate includes women, it means the scale starts at about 5ft, so 'tall' is more like 5ft 10 really. (past 6'3 is probably the same disadvantage, if not worse, than being
So glad the audio quality at the start was just the outtake :D
Funny how the cost of fan's seems to be a limiter for Tom, but "Bring at least 4 pairs of shoes to the crag" doesn't sound ironic? Fan sponsors, come at me!
Milwaukee!
@@strongarmclimbing Haha, yes! (That’s what I’ve got…)
No one talks about how polish or wear stiffens the grade
maybe because it doesn't?
I feel strong enough for my height but not mobile enough! Btw, I'm a data scientist analysing a climber dataset (for work!): for men, height was negatively correlated with V grade and for women, arm span (not ape index or height) was the strongest +ve correlation AND weight had an even stronger (though still quite noisy) +ve correlation with V grade (ladies: get stronger!)
Interesting! Can the public see this data?
@@shakeysugar4382 I got the dataset from reddit but it has since been taken down. I can certainly get it somewhere public -- maybe as a kaggle dataset.
did u collect data for sport-climbing? where can we read your paper?
@@facelesstraveler the dataset also includes a bunch of sport climbers! I just focussed on the boulderers for now. The writeup will be on the blog, engineering.tableau.com -- within a month?
The correlation that was strongest that I loved was the harder V grades included more that climbed both indoors and outdoors! There were also obvious correlations like: climbed/trained more/more often, could do more pull ups/push ups/longer Lsits, could do max hangs/pull ups with more weight, and have been climbing longer (with that effect maxing out at ~4-5yrs)
Release the full rant!!!!!
Some sit starts just feel impossible for taller people when not being able the get their butt off the ground (see Wideboyz vs Lattice: the system board challenge problem 3 for reference).
Yeah, in general if the arm + legs box is small, you are so ridiculously far from the wall that the hand holds feel like 2-3 grades higher.
Yehhuu! Love the rants! Awaiting more. Raw power is enough? VS technique
It is just the nature of bouldering. A climber sees a problem and starts to analyze it. He sees a few weaknesses and start to formulate a solution. It is how the first climbing shoe evolved or the first crashpad or chalkbags etc. It does take away a bit of the adventurous side of things but as long as you're not disturbing others (drones leafblowers) then everybody gets to decide for himself what level of adventure they want to accept. If you don't want any tech then you'll have to go in naked.
the blowers and such do not change the difficulty of a climb. It just optimizes conditions. just as you optimize conditions when resting before a big climbing day.
Missing a rant about the book under the kneepad while sending the big island assis.
"We will be doing a Tom and ollie rant (...) fully load in on a few topics, actually QUITE A FEW TOPICS" 😆 🤣
Favourite way to start
Idk, how someone might say, that climbing it's easier when you're tall, since in word cup the tallest climber is usually Adam Ondra, who is 1,86m with similar arm reach. In sports like basketball or volleyball where it is actually better to be taller, most of players have 2m+. There should not be a question like+
: is it better to be tall? There should be a question like: why it is not good to be tall?
How long until you have a drone with a fan following you up a sport route?
The thing is, this would actually be flipping awesome 🤣🤣
@@LatticeTraining I THINK in some situations height could affect grade of route, but is the grade really that important, until get to high levels?
What I really want is a drone, that can place protection when or in event of a fall making climbing safer?
However not for everyone, but accidents happen!
The tidbit about fans, ladders, extra gear, etc is interesting to me to think of as "unfair." Essentially these are either altering conditions, allowing for extra practice on sections, or helping out in some way that you can replicate by just having more time. Is it then "unfair" to have a remote job that allows you to spend weeks/months at a time at a crag to acclimate to the rock, try the boulder over and over again, etc? Doing a climb in a single session after having weeks to acclimate to the rock on other climbs is vastly different than doing a climb in a single session after driving 6 hours to climb for the weekend, yet this is rarely discussed
that was a very civilized way of ranting. i quite enjoyed this!
Tom "idk bout people bringing a fan to the crag cuz of cost and some climbers might not be able to afford it."
Also Tom "When i project something hard I bring 4 or 5 pairs of shoes."
Brooo shoes are sooo expensive lol I've only ever used 1 pair and I've climbed for under 2 years.
Go get a job man how are you that broke. Shoes go on sale all the time I've gotten $200 shoes for half price before you just need to be smart and look harder
@@AMM1998 i think you are missing the irony of Tom being concerned about accessibility while bringing over a grand of shoes to the crag to smash out a project. Ur right though ur assumption of me not having a job or buying my shoes at full price is spot on /s
I was thinking the same thing!
yeh a single pair of good shoes are more expensive than a fan. Its not that a climber cant afford a fan/ladder, its that a climber cba bringing/lugging them to the crag. in which case more power to the fan/ladder cilmbers
@@austinbentley4604 Word I think Tom is usually spot on I just thought that was kinda funny. :p
The ONLY complaint I have about having long legs is sit starts or some high step moves where you need to pistol squat up to a high hold. Having to squat so deep when you don’t quite have the arm reach just means that you really need to make sure your flexibility and mobility in hips, hamstrings, even ankles allows you to push through those cramped somewhat weak positions. It’s def possible and I’ve gotten better, but it still doesn’t feel good at times :,)
Heyho thanks for the entertaining rant. 2 subjects for next rant. 1. Multiple pads on sitstarts for short climbers or starting tucked. 2. putting out boulder videos with really terrible technic
I am 6' with a +1 ape and think I have it easier than shorter climbers for sure most of the time. It bites me though on sit starts, weird body compression or contortions in corners and getting really high feet. I have a friend that is about 3" shorter and has a 0 ape. While I have always been a grade or 2 better, he can do so many weird tight problems that I just flat out cannot get into position. I don't have the added flexibility to get my taller self folded up nearly as well as he can. Most problems though we are able to climb them basically the same or I will have the advantage.
Nice rant! One more thing to consider. Both of you have done careless torque? Would you do it without pads? Does having pads make Carless easier as it becomes relatively safe? Being old (lot older than Tom) I'm all for pads. A dream problem Careless just two problems too old and not good enough!
Not me with my 5' nothing frame and my -2" APE index
It's roughhh
Short/tall: when Hojer won the bouldering season, he was repeatedly told it's because he's tall and it's easy for him. Then he asked in return what the average height of WC competitors is. How come so few climbers above 185cm take part in international comps?
The biggest advantage shorter climbers have imo is less weight and also less likely to get injuries due to having a smaller weight. Your fingers are so much more injury prone if you are dragging a 200lb body up a wall
This is a foundation of what could be a really interesting study
....
@@LatticeTraining I agree! I think it's the main benefit of starting climbing young because you begin at such a light bodyweight; natural bodily growth in height and weight is relatively slow so it's like young climbers can progressively overload their tissues over the years if a safe manner, without even trying
Best advice of the Vid has to be "just grab the hold and pull"....off to the gym to train that now :)
Im a FPV drone lover befor starting to climb but I also feel you shouldnt be making artificial noise while in nature. If camping, hiking or outdoor climbing, you dont take generators, fans, etc. You take your hiking bag with everything you need for the week hiking and climbing while leaving all electronics at home. If people cant hear the birds any more, your to loud. Growing up hiking and camping this was just a unspoken rule of the bush of australia
What do you mean by “Blanco cheater heel?” Are you referring to the Anasazi Blancos? Do the baggy heels on those shoes offer an advantage? I’d always heard people complain about them.
Pretty sure the side of the blanco heel had a large ridge (not fully rounded like most heels) which you could use for extra leverage on a marginal heel hook. Please correct me if I’m wrong!
@@danjames8853 I don't see an issue with that at all
@@AMM1998 The idea was that you have an advantage if you use that certain shoe, and about wether its fair to people potentially gaining an advantage by paying more money for a shoe. But yeh I disagree with that since all shoes offer unique positives.
@@Adam_Wheeler yeah whoever is arguing that point isn't exactly the smartest. Of course if you pay more money you get a better shoe. The same can be said for any sport. You can spend more money to increase your performance up until a certain threshold until you start to see diminishing returns and the extra money you're spending isn't increasing your performance. Look at cycling. Pro teams all use proprietary materials and classified designs to get an edge over their competition. The sport itself is still fair.
Like you said, the Blanco heel maybe amazing for a ton of people but for others it will be awful. In my opinion advancements and shoe technology is expected and shouldn't be viewed in the same light as something like bringing fans to the Crag.
Topics for the next rant: 1) the grade everyone should be able to reach 2) is bouldering harder than sport, sport than trad? (all futile, but always worth a rant innit)
Ladders and leafblowers at the crag? Thats apolling!
If it makes noise, leave it at Home!
Hey Lattice, Love this.
Genuine question/concern: following the recent documentary 'Light' and your experience with RED-S, do you believe climbers nowadays (especially girls) are pushing the strength/weight ratio to unhealthy levels? It would be great to have your view on this. Keep ranting!
Of course man. Go look at the average world cup lead comp in qualifying. A ton of girls are clearly underweight. I've actually heard some team kids at my gym talking about how light Laura agora is it was honestly pretty sad to see
@@AMM1998 Very true, and it happens in many other sports I guess. The saddest thing is that I don't think it can be prevented... You can see these things, but it is impossible to set a universal criteria for a healthy weight for comps and such.
@@markharris2562 Using a mimimum BMI might be a way to implement such a rule.
@@willempye73 no you can't use bmi as a prerequisite to compete as some people are just naturally closer to the lower limit while others are in the middle so they don't need to modify their diet. I honestly have no idea how you would implement a system that ensures everyone is at a safe weight, yet it is still a level playing field
@@markharris2562 I agree. I don't think there's a system in existence that would Make sure nobody is on a destructive in terms of weight while ensuring fairness. I think it's the responsibility of the climbing community and the coaches / friends that are close to these climbers that are underweight to speak up
Topic for the next rant: kneepads, crackgloves, tape, shoes: what is aid? Till know nobody really uses objecive, technical criteria to distinguish wich is aid and wich is not. I think most people just go with what they grew up with and that actually (trigger :D) shoes are aid but the other things arent!
Is climbing bare foot, in fact, aid?!
I had a session on jerrys roof. I am pretty tall but was having a lot of issue with the swing on the crux move. There was a smaller women working the climb as well and she could get this relaly interwetsing high foot and static the crux. I tried that method and didn't fit at all. Plus im probably 15-20KG heavier. Point is I oculd do that crux move if im strong enough but not because im tall enough, and a good short climber will work out a good beta and a good tall climber will work out a good beta. Thats why climbing is so cool!
As a short climber (5'2" with a -0.5" ape index) I approve of Ollie's message! 😅
Actually it's quite interesting because I always thought perhaps the only way a short climber had a distinct advantage over a tall climber was on cramped moves like sit starts and better grip on smaller holds because of smaller fingers. And although I'm short and often experience problems where I can do the hard moves off the start only to be stymied by a long throw at the end, I hadn't thought about how psychologically short climbers may experience more fear because of long reaches.
This is the content we live for
A big thing for the height thing i would say is: indoor gym problems almost always favor taller climbers especially in that v3-v8 zone where most climbers land.
That’s a really big gap 😂 but I do agree, there can be some though into corners that can be tough, or compressions that can be difficult indoors, which is becoming more popular with the use of volumes.
More thoughts on knee pads? Never used one so do they add a lot of friction to knee bars as compared to skin or maybe just some jeans/track pants?
Do they fall into tech most people don’t have so they might degrade a route? Is Silence 10A without a knee pad 😂
OOooh is there going to be drama? I'm excited.
Not unless Tom takes back his comments about E-Bikes and fans...
Short climbers are lighter, have smaller fingers, less leverage AND can use their size as an excuse. So unfair ;)
Short climbers aren’t necessarily lighter, those smaller fingers can’t reach the holds as easily as their taller counterparts and don’t have the ability to use their size as a crutch, that’s unfair😀
Fully agree. strong, tall climbers are more like outliers.
@@alexgalays910 At the beginner/intermediate levels strength isn’t as much of a necessity and being tall gives you the ability to always reach the next hold, which negates any loss in skill and balance. You can be a crap climber skill wise, but finish routes by lumbering along reaching, and pulling. I see it everyday, tall guys, who by all accounts aren’t that skilled, but are strong enough to reach the next hold and pull hard. If you’re short, simp,y reaching the next hold and having to establish balance is a problem that tall climbers simply don’t have to deal with. Especially on vertical climbs.
@@ABSVabeautifulsunsetvlog so many excuses, thank you for proving my point :)
@@rostam24 says the tall clueless guy
I mean im totally on board having a fan caddy who follows you drying your hands and holds as you climb like dave graham did for ali hulk extension xD
If I go out to the mountains I don't want to hear a leaf blower, and would be pretty annoyed if I did. Fortunately it is pretty dry in Banff and Kananaskis unless it has rained recently or the snow is melting.
I didn't know fans were considered such advanced technology lol, its just an ingenious way to go around an uncomfortable thing that impedes yourclimbing
No matter what the sport or pursuit, there will always be the people who will do anything to succeed, and technology will always be one of the answers. Similarly, there will always be people who are hesitant to embrace technological advancement, especially because it somehow “threatens” the sanctity of things they are passionate about. But here’s the problem: it doesn’t matter. If it helps, people will do it. So why be the stick in the mud? The demand will make it cheaper and better, and more widely available. Then, people will find another way to get an edge.
Please publish the entire cut content tall short rant (just for entertainment value) pls 😂
Yeah, it is harder for shorter climbers. I'm about average for a climber - My shorter climbing partners are way stronger than me, and often better than me, and often can't do the same moves that I can do, simply because of reach.
When the holds are close enough together, though, those short motherfuckers are unstoppable.
And what about the ones that they just want to go to the crag and just relax and have some climbing should they insist all this fuzz ?. I believe the percentage of people that will climb something just because they used a fan is very small . Probably a fan will not make you climb your project in most cases.
Tom, your comments about multiple pairs of shoes completely contradict your earlier comments about using loads of gadgets. Owning 5 pairs of £100+ shoes all in useable condition is really not realistic for very many people at all. Saying take £500 worth of shoes on one hand and then saying no to using a £50 ladder or a £50 makita fan because it’s not available to most people makes no sense at all. This inconsistency implies you were just arguing for the sake of it in the first section.
Fan? And leafblowers?!? I could watch that segment and genuinely not know of it was an April fool or not. Leafblower to the crag is just bizarre as hell.
When’s the last time Ollie has had issues with a sit start or a high foot huh?
Cant blame high feet on height really, that's just lack of flexibility usually
@@slapthesloper The problem for taller people with high feet is generally that the foot gets quite close to the hand and you have to fit into a smaller box which is not solved by flexibility
..if you're short that high foot becomes even higher. And wouldn't most climbers trade being able to do sit starts for having to do less moves per route? It's hardly a big loss.
@@shivs254 which is why 2m+ climbers are dominating the sport obviously
@@Setarkos91 No one is saying it's easier for 2m+ climbers (I'm certainly not), they have their own set of disadvantages. The debate lies in the average height range, so whether it's easier if you're 5'2 or 5'10. Not 4'8 or 6'5
Are you kidding me? If someone brings a leaf blower to the crag they're not leaving with it. Not bc I care if it's easier, but bc I'm not listening to it run.
I'm not climbing in the Peak district, so there's that.
Short climbers have tall climbers beat with a good amount of sit starts lol
As a tall climber, its kind of tiring hearing how its always my height and not the hard work that makes me able to do a climb
My probolem with the technology is not so much the side of fair or not fair, but on the experience side. For me going outdoor is also always finding connection with nature again. Having more time, beeing on one thing for longer periods, resting more, having more stillness around. Also, respecting nature and animals and not disturbing it to much with noises, music, fans etc. I think its a fine line to walk, on one side its amazing to push our limits or even make someting possible (climbing in summer), but i feel in general our culture lacks connection to earth and nature. And i always thought of bouldering as an attractive way, to move a person through gym climbing to maybe beeing interested in experiencing nature again. Making it all tech based with filming, tools etc. again would make me kind of sad.
Crack gloves are aid?...
Outrageous comment 🤣
The best climber is the one having the most fun , not the one carrying a fan to the crag !
E bikes to the crag! That's one hell of a first world problem, man. For me big part of the climbing experience is the adventure, trekking, approach.
Knee pads are fair play.
With regards to fans & leaf blowers: Strongman competitors use tacky to grab altas stones. Do you think it would be acceptable for climbers to use tacky to improve grip on slopers?
It ruins the rock. Using sticky substances is like chipping holds -- don't ruin it for everyone else
no
Goofy song is back! awesome
Shepard tone to start. This will be a good one.
Also I have not climbed in the UK or anywhere in Europe, but not everywhere in the states is perfect conditions. I am from Ohio and we have horrible weather probably the most inconsistent in the world 😂😂 now Ik Ohio is not a known place for climbing in the US, but it still takes place here it is just not as big as it is out West.
4:33 E-bike woh hold on, no it's NOT good for the environment Ollie Cycling on a normal bike is good for the environment. You've got all the negative effects of electric production and lithium battery production to deal with first !
Get a proper bike get fit for walk in's, strengthens tendons etc. For that long walk in with gear !
Recently I foud (as a female) a new excuse: It's impossible to do it that way, because my center of gravity is too low :-) (and of course I am always too short).
Think I'm ok with fans or ladders, 50/50 with drones (hate the noise, love the images), but what I truly hate is music at the crsg
The best boots cost a stack. Fortunately, a solo without a mat has more status than a solo with one. Big Air with 8 mats is laughable. The less gear you use, the more status. Like that French guy doing 8B at Font, barefoot. Can we have a video that shows Ollie on rock ?
Ebikes? As in used on the approach? I can't even imagine bringing an ebike up a scree pile or down a canyon.
I think they refer to the mountain bike versions. Proper big springs, large wheels and a bonkers powerful motor.
We have few outstanding problems you need to hike to for hours on good trails, camping not allowed. Bikes have been used for ages getting there. Actually mountainbikes are even used scouting for new crags a lot.
If I can afford 25 cams, and stitch up a crack, does that make it easier? No, it just means that I'm a fool and paid for, then drug up 25 cams. People bringing in extra kit to make their experience better, doesn't degrade the climb. I always go as light as possible, so I personally wouldnt drag in a ladder or fan, but to each their own.
I'd like to see one of these bringing in some of the other team members on gendered Vs non-gendered climbing competitions. I get the feeling an increasing number of spectators would like to see non-gendered comps. But I'm less sure on the practicalities of it. And weather its just as simple as adapting the problems to the strengths of the competitors, as the setters do atm. Or if it's far more complex than that. I don't think (or least wouldn't like to think) it's a case of men are better climbers than women.
No chalk, no climbing shoes is the only real way to grade a route. Everything else is using technology to help you and will eventually get easier with time and better technology. If you want a stable grade for a climb, you need to NCNS send it.
I route set at my gym in flip flops and loose cargo pants.
being tall is aid. shoes are aid. long neck is aid. knee bars are aid. being Tom is aid. basically everything is aid.
Finally someone agrees with me that taller climbers have an advantage!!! More often than not if two people start climbing at the same time and one is significantly taller, the taller climber is going to seemingly make quicker strides because of what Ollie said. When you’re tall you generally have the ability to reach the next hold and that in itself provides a level of security that we shorter climbers don’t have. So when you’re short you have to cultivate better technique since you don’t have the extra length to simply reach, secure, then pull on the hold, or balance yourself on the hold. And that’s not saying that taller climbers are rubbish, but sometimes you can have a better climber unable to send a problem or a route that the taller climber is able to simply because of their length. So personally I look at a persons skill set, ability to sustain through muscle endurance, creativity on the climb through the use of various techniques, and all around skill set, more so than their simple ability to finish a climb, when determining who I think is a better climber.
Yeah taller is an advantage that's why all the best climbers are also basketball players. Stop spewing bullshit please.
@@maginkub must be tall Hunh?
What is a cheetah heel? What should I google for?
I think he just means "cheater" heel, as in a heel hook that takes advantage of the baggy space in the shoe. The rubber forms over the hold, especially if its a spikey hold. Then the shoe does a lot of the work for you.
How many climbers in the world cup are taller than 180 cm and how many are shorter? Have a look and then - discussion is over.
Great, enjoyed it 👍🏼😁. What about young vs old lol 😂
That’s a great idea! Got us thinking there…
Crack climbing, barehand vs tape vs cheating gloves?
People need to stop bitching about conditions and just be stronger. Poorer climbers = stronger climbers
…what are the e-bikes for?
oeff.. constant drone noise at the crag would be so annoying
Tom's right, leaf blowers and fans? seriously?
but, your knee is part of your body! that's all in surely.
Yeah but are all body parts in now, if you put rubber on top???
@@LatticeTraining we put rubber on our feet though, its no different to that I guess...
rubber on the backs of the hands for cracks too...
In my opinion if it can pass as an item of clothing it should be in. (not that I'm good enough to benefit from anything of the like!)
@@harrydh213 yeah but following this logic couldn't we also use sticky rubber on our fingertips as a part of clothing?
@@gerhardh4055 if gloves were any good im sure there would be atleast 1 company making them. and i dont think gluing rubber to your fingers counts as clothing :P
but in all the other sports i do there is a rule book with clearly stated guidelines and rules put together by a governing body...
then everyone's opinion is irrelevant :)
You’re totally missing the difference between knee bars and knee pads. Knee pads are a new and optional development, one that was not available back in the day. You need to be specific rather than just saying ‘knee bars’
If it really is easier for taller climbers why aren’t all of the worlds best really tall?
Adam Ondra is 184 cm so...
@@marcosjuan3142 exactly! He’s not really very tall and yet he looks like a giant in comp line ups. If you put Ondra next to elite athletes from a sport where height really does matter he would be one of, if not the shortest. For example: Basketball or high jump where mean heights are 201cm and 195cm.
@@danielcowley538 The debate is men and women. 6ft1 is very tall when many women are around 5ft.
@@marcosjuan3142 Yeah and he's about the only one among the 100 best climbers who is above 180 cm. He's more of an outlier.
@@maginkub Jan Hojer 187 cm, Jernej Kruder 181 cm, Sebastien Bouin 180cm... 😉
I think grades should be given when done in the best conditions and fans get you closer to prime condies
Yea a fan is just avoiding having to wait all day for that nice gust of wind or better conditions in general but it does seem pretty lame.
I feel like those are like quality of life things but not necessary though.
tape is aid, and you all know it!
drew ruana said he can't send without his fan. guess fans are artificial climbing.
There is no excuse, just weakness
I'll just give you my two cents, as I'm not for shure a top notch boulderer and definitely not a tall one, 169 cm + 1ape (I don't know how much it is in hamburgers and pop tarts). I consider that, given the same weight/power ratio, the taller climber (ore the one with more positive ape index) is in advantage. Yes, I'm as tall as a lot of pro climbers, but I'm missing some critical cm in my ape index!
WTF a leaf blower? To dry holds? I'm gonna take hedge trimmer with me next time.
i don't understand much of ollies accent, but did he just said e bikes are good for the environment?
He said that for commuting to work (like to an office job) using an ebike is better than driving
@@xuanji07 hm okay better. but still not good for the environment :/
Typical short climber rage by Ollie there. The truth is most harder climbs are better fitted for shorter (ie lighter) climbers. Reachy moves are an outlier, if you think you can't send because of a reachy move you have the choice to just go climb anything else. On the other hand, as you go up in the grades, small holds just cannot be avoided.
The first two female climbers to do 9b are respectively 154 cm and 153 cm. 10 year old kids who have climbed for less than a year regularly make the news for sending 8b or harder routes. Tomoa Narasaki who is undisputably the best indoor boulderer at the moment is 170 cm. Daniel Woods who did all the hardest boulders outdoors is 170 cm as well. Alex Megos is 173 cm and has climbed 9c. These are all below average heights. Just because Ondra is considered the best route climber in the world and he's 185 cm doesn't mean being tall is an advantage. His strength comes from plenty other factors, mostly technique, flexibility and mental fortitude.
So please, stop with the short climber mentality. Even though some climbs might be out of reach, most will be doable and you will have an easier time doing them than someone who is 40 kg heavier, trust me.