Looking at the excess of 90s comics and women's costumes
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
- We've debunked some of the myths of sexuality in comics in the 80s, but what about the 90s? Are some of the claims of over-sexualized costumes true? Well...
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I was 12 at this time and it was great. The Marvel Swimsuit Specials were the height of culture.
Maybe?
I love those back in the day. This whole generation is gay😂😂😂
I was less offended by the costumes and more offended by having to shell out an extra 2 or 3 bucks for a holofoil, cover every 3 issues or so.
@@tomcruisenukedmyaccount5388 are you fxckin me. DC was "rebooting", "relaunching", "restarting", garbage every other year! Recently they did convergence...which I kinda liked
Sex sells; cheesecake art and loads of T&A has been a crutch for subpar comics and other media since the dawn of time. That's not to say that any comic with skimpily clad women in it is bad, but rather that a lot of bad comics still made money thanks to the eye candy factor.
Comparing the nineties to today, I would say the prevailing attitude around depictions of women today is the unhealthy one. Treating fictional characters like they're flesh-and-blood women, or worse, spokespeople for all of womandom, is just silly. There is an unstated but clearly strongly held belief that showing/using your sexuality as a woman makes you lesser, makes you a tool of the patriarchy, whereas in the 90's this was still seen as empowering.
I'd much rather have the naive optimism of the 90's than this weird, regressive neopuritan culture.
Preach.
Methinks part of it is that most women aren’t attractive like these comic babes and are projecting. Trying to take control of the medium to make themselves feel better.
I didn't mind the Sue Richards costume, and i didn't really pay attention to the 'sexualized' thing. if the art and story were good, i bought the comic. I really paid no mind to the way the female characters were dressed. Comics to me were about the characters and the stories and the art. Maybe i bought the occasional comic because of a scantily clad character, but more often than not, it was because i liked the art. Never bought Image comics, all the art was the same and and there was no differentiating who was who. It was all 'factory line' art, where absolutely no one stood out and everyone fit into the mold. They might as well just have cloned an artist and put his clones to work on the comics.
You seem to be ignoring WHY this occurred. "Bad Girl" comics were the THE thing at that point. Various indies had proven that you could have a sub-par story, but if you had hot, scantly-clad chicks, you would sell comics. Marvel wanted to sell comics. It wasn't coming from sexism. It was coming from greed.
@@tomcruisenukedmyaccount5388 Eric Luke's Ghost was also excellent- and one of the very few that were consistently drawn well from the very beginning.
And greed...is good. 😂
I remember those days, when 'that side' of the newsstand was like a soft porn, sports car babes, or fitness model section. It was the rococo era of comics, which put more emphasis on excess, be the bodies male or female. Men had muscles on top of muscles, women had curves on top of curves, and so on. Porn mags or videos were also everywhere. A lot more of the '90's artists coming to comics had come right out of art school, where they drew from nude models routinely, so they were less skittish about drawing women sexually.
@@rsmllc2 Truly a lost golden age!
We need to stop calling this sort of portrayal of women (or anyone) "sexist". No one is saying that women are less than men. More specific this is a sexual portrayal. Call it sexy or sexual or sexually intriguing, but it ISN'T sex-IST.
I think Byrne's She-Hulk is one of the best. The current iteration - that of a Neanderthal-esque virago (all she needs are hirsuit legs, arms and back like Wolverine) - is ridiculous.
I think I seen a picture of that She-Hulk, I seen it a few weeks ago & it just looks like Hulk, it looks nothing like any other She-Hulk. It looks totally ridiculous & it’s just the personification of the SJW mindset. To them She-Hulk should be a big ugly troglodyte, they don’t want woman to be depicted in a sexy way, because SJW’s are all ugly trolls, not just in body, but also in their minds.
“Their souls are dogshit, everything about them is ugly”.
@@tomcruisenukedmyaccount5388 It’s that they hate that woman aren’t men, they believe that men have better lives, so they think that in order for women to be happy they need to become men. They’re all totally delusional.
To be fair, Susan and Moira were POSSESSED by bad guys (Malice and the Shadow King) at the time. THOSE examples were storylines. People in the comics were saying how different and out of character those two were dressing and acting.
It was pretty funny seeing everyones horrified reactions within the comics.
My cousin use to get the swimsuit issue of the Marvel comics back in the day. I thought they were fun. 🤷♀️
@@tomcruisenukedmyaccount5388 nah, bruh....leftists worship Satan. God created boobs for the good of life.
Fun and silly. :)
Personally, I don't have an issue with bathing suit style costumes. She-Hulk, Power Girl, original Storm, Starfire, Ms. Marvel, Tigra...it's another style of costume, just like the catsuit. The issue is putting that style on a character who isn't known to wear such things. When Susan and Moira did it, something was wrong with them.
I think the Bad Girl craze of the 90's was too much of similar things over a short amount of time. A pity that the art or anatomy wasn't often very good. I'd rather have that than the crap that's being made today.
I like the skimpy costumes too, for both sexes. Namor, the Thing, Kamandi, Ka-Zar and many others looked fine with just shorts or the equivalent.
Fairchild from Gen-13 had a thing where her clothes would disintegrate during every fight. The series lampshaded it but Lee and Campbell did like drawing her near-naked, too.
Pretty much that, she also had the funniest chapter in the history of comic books. I swear I cannot stop laughing at the chapter where she is the only one Immune to the effect of a young pop singer who used her powers to make people like her songs in the same way the record companies do nowadays, by brainwashing.
“Do you think Byrne would have drawn this comic if She Hulk was fat?” Said by someone who clearly never read or forgot about Byrne’s Great Lakes Avengers. Byrne did seem to have a clear understanding that women come in different sizes and shapes. And had a broad palette of characters. Heck any She Hulk cheesecake Byrne did was generally comedic parody and specifically poking fun at cheesecake tropes.
I like the idea of Susan's costume being invisible. how they handled it was horrible.
Luckily they were only the Fantastic "4"... A number like "20" may not have been so subtle for a chest window lol
Wow women in comics looking attractive, something we dont see anymore
Just saw a super scary thing on Twitter guys. Zatanna is trending because there is either a series or movie in the works for HBOMax. Why is this scary? Well, she and Black Canary are my favorite female DC characters and Black Canary's chance in a live action movie was ruined with casting Jurnee Smollett*. I am super scared for Zatanna.
My favorite absurd 90's costume moment was around X-men 4 or 5 when Psylocke went to Russia in the winter wearing her normal outfit, but made sure to wear a jacket (a 90's trend)
You made a video talking about different possible comic book audiences. There is still an audience that likes skimpily dressed comic book characters. Some of the indie comics today are proof that there is a kind of audience for this stuff. It's a niche type of thing. Now the modern mainstream industry tends to be anti-"male gaze." There are certain characters like Red Sonja, Conan, and Kratos where it actually adds to the character for them to wear less clothes. Pushing for either extreme ruins certain characters. It also further limits the potential audience for the medium when you only make content for one type of audience. Alienating the majority, by only appealing to niche audiences, has always been a problem with comics.
Great point about comics do tend to appeal to niche audiences.
Artwork back then was still a lot better than the majority of the modern crap today.
The one thing I'd add is that this phenomenon wasn't limited to comics. The late 80s to mid 90s was also when D&D was hitting it's peak with 2E, and there was a lot of boob armor, boob windows and chainmail bikinis in their artwork. Back then the argument was that it was catering to its audience of boys and young men, but in retrospect I think their depictions of women is what created their limited audience. Todays comics and RPGs have toned down the sexualization of women a lot and have expanded their audiences.
You're saying this like it was a bad thing...
Back when artists could actually draw attractive women without Twitter mobs coming after them; those were the days.
I guess it a crime to the Heterosexual male.why a bunch of ppl are just sticking to japanese media now .
Honestly I think they went overboard with it for a while. It was weird with Sue. With some characters it's fine because it matches their personality, but between the broken spines and dental floss thongs it's hard to go back to as a grown man. Even back then it was a little embarrassing to be caught reading certain things.
The Power Girl thing has taken an interesting turn lately. Now I've seen certain groups saying that body shaming large chested woman is wrong and to leave Power Girl alone.
The 90’s was both a great and terrible decade for comics, on one hand we had junk like Zero Hour Crisis, Youngblood, and the Clone Saga, on the other hand we got Hellboy, Spawn, and Sandman.
@@RarebitFiends Sorry
@@RarebitFiends ABC warriors?
@@RarebitFiends Oh, for a moment I thought we were going to talk about Hammerstein
@@tomcruisenukedmyaccount5388 except for marvel cartoons before the MCU people couldn't get enough of x-men tas spider man tas a so on
@@RarebitFiends Youngblood was the drizzling shits
I read recently this Susan Storm costume run. And her reason why she dress like that was explained by her on the start. She wanted to drop the image of the good girl. Later justifying that by evil persona influence. I am not defending her costume or anything just clarifies the facts.
Or even Marvel planned that from the start because Susan changed costume and personality after Infinity War when she have incydent with Malice.
Sue only had it for like 12 issues or something. The outfit she replaced it with I actually like a lot (the one on the cover of #388).
Agreed I was about to post the same thing. I mean she was going through basically a mental breakdown with her brother being arrested and possessed by an entity that is practically naked. Also she lost her son (Kind of he was kidnapped and aged to like late teens by his grandfather) This is still one of my favorite eras of FF history. Slott's run is practically unreadable.
@@AllPwrflSteve DeFalco is John Byrne 2.0 compared to Slott.
@@bobmularky7456 that costume was horrible
I hope Perch gets a chance to interview Tom DeFalco on this era of Marvel.
Me too.
Hey don't mess with 90's females Bub! You looking for trouble?!
Okay, so the run on FF where Sue has the boob window is one of my favorite runs on the FF. That costume for Sue was ridiculously out of character for her, but it was story driven, and the same goes for Thing wearing a helmet. It was story driven. Wolverine had severly mutilated Ben's face in battle because the "New Fantastic Four" were tasked with bringing Johnny Storm in after he went nova and accidentally destroyed a university. The book was absolutely very 90's but it was all done very in a natural way. Also, R.I.P. Paul Ryan, who was such a fantastic artist. People always remember this era of FF for that racy costume, but for me, the story and art during Tom DeFalco and Paul Ryan's run, made me excited to buy every single issue.
You are not alone.
This run was only bettered by the John Byrne run. Some great stories destroyed by the garbage that was heroes reborn. Also don't get me started on Rob Liefield.
I think there's a big difference between idealized and sexualized. Power Girl is idealized and that's fair since most male superheroes are also idealized. But Sue Storm, Glory, etc. were way, over the top, 90s-tastic sexualized.
I think the difference between "idealized" and "sexualized" there is partly intent and partly artistic skill. Wally Wood drew cheesecake like few others ever could but PG *did* things instead of posing like a fashion model all the time. A lot of the 90s crap tended to be very static by comparison, more "displayed for the reader" than taking action even in action scenes, and of course they suffered from inept artists with no grasp of anatomy.
I just think the look female had in the 90s had little justification in story
Like Sue reason for her suit just made it look bad at her and Reed characters
Remember Prime, his muscles had muscles. Rob Lefield, all his characters had bicepts bigger than human heads
Lord knows I will take the excesses of the 90s over the ideological puritanism of today's comics, anytime and anywhere.
Edit: Hey, Perch, don't diss Biker Jacket Wonder Woman! She looks freaking awesome!
She also covers more skin than her traditional outfit does, which is kind of hilarious. She is less prone to winding up in bondage, though.
I'd certainly take Biker Jacket "unworthy" Wonder Woman over that awful JMS pants and on the run WW we got shortly before the New52 reboot.
@@richmcgee434 "She also covers more skin than her traditional outfit does"
Her regular outfit always reminded me of a stripper. Though I have seen strippers with less revealing outfits.
I like the high-on-the-hip leotard design, but not every woman should wear that sort of thing. It's like that slime isekai anime. I like big boobs, but have some restraint. Gets to the point you're just like, ok, I like flatty the most; she's different.
I'll say this, the late 80's and early 90's were my formative years in comics. As such I have a strong appreciation for that era. The comics of that era that I personally love are the Incredible Hulk, Ghost Rider, and Silver Surfer. I didn't really buy much of the "super model" comics. For a character like Frankie Raye Nova it made sense that she looked the way she did and it never bothered me. But she was also basically the only character like that for the majority of Silver Surfer. Sue Storm's change was strange I remember thinking. It didn't fit. And I do remember feeling a bit ashamed when looking at Moondragon from the Infinity Watch, but learning the character's personality and history it made sense... to a degree. That's the thing though, such depictions needed to fit with the character and make some kind of sense. But then again, these are comics we're talking about. Exaggeration, to a point, is natural in comics. It's finding the that line between what's tasteful and what's not that can be a challenge.
The beauty of comics is that you can push what is considered "tasteful" to the limit and even destroy it. Because its a form of expression.
What is "tasteful" is subjective. Even in comics that are rated for kids you can find something that is that doesn't appeal to your " taste"
If I recall my FF storylines, Thing's helmet was due to him covering scars from getting in a brawl with Wolverine, and Sue's costume and transformation to Malice was the result of your pal Psycho-Man (who's Mad-Sad-Glad box apparently has a Sex It Up button). No idea what's up with Reed's vest though, and was Johnny even around then?
Reed's vest came out of nowhere and Johnny was in jail for a bit after accidentally burning down Empire State.
@@kyleweaver2578 Whoopsie. Well, what can you expect from a guy named the Human Torch?
Correct answer is "a lot more soulful lounge singing than we ever got" of course. :)
Was She-Hulk on the team at this point? I can never remember when she was on and off over the years.
@@richmcgee434 I think she left during the Roger Stern issues (87' I believe without looking it up).
Actually, looking at the art of the Fantastic Four issues where Sue was in her ‘exhibitionistic’ outfit I was always struck by the lack of sensuality to the drawings. The artist wasn’t (or couldn’t) investing the cartoon with any sort of sexuality. The figure work didn’t seem to be striving to make Sue look sexy or anything, she was drawn in much the same poses as if she’d been wearing a boiler suit. Same with a lot of the art from that period. They may dress like lap dancers... but you just don’t get a ‘sexy’ vibe off the cartoons. You just get the impression that the artists have got no feel for how to draw real women… maybe they were just bored… or a bit rubbish. My own pet theory behind the sudden Invisible Woman costume change is that Sue realised one day that she was now 38 years of age, stuck in a stale marriage and it just caused her to have a bit of a meltdown.
There's a reason why a good number of these 90s sexy comic characters have fallen by the wayside, apart from looking sexy, many of them weren't memorable as comic characters.
Compared that to a character like Vampirella (who first appeared in 1969), yes a good part of her appeal was the fanservice but she was also a very memorable and interesting character, which is why she's fondly remembered and is still making appearances in a ton of comics.
The funny thing is that quite a few of the top Bad Girl characters from that era are pretty memorable. For example.
*Lady Death Comics are still being produced.
*Psylocke of the X-men is just as or even more popular than she was in the 90,s.
* Avenglyne ( a poorly drawn 90,s bad girl comic) got a tv show.
* Witchblade and even Shotgun Mary had TV shows.
* Even the crappy Barbwire comic had movie and a T.V. show.
*Dirty Pair comics by Adam Warren are still sought after and fondly remembered. Dirty Pair is a japanese ip. And has manga, anime show, and animated movies in Japan.
Now granted the ones I listed was just a fraction of the high amount Bad Girl comics being produced in the 90,s. What I find funny is that many of the 90,s Bad Girl comics are hard to find in comic book store dollar and 50 cent bins. Most of the time I find them bagged, boarded, and priced in regular back issue bins. I see lots of Marvel and modern day indie books of the past 5 yrs clogging up dollar bins now than I do 90,s comics in general.
It wasnt like those characters fell to the wayside. Its just a lot of the Bad Girl comics were indie or self published comics back then. Those creators just stopped producing those comics. The Bad Girl trend also didn't last very long. It had a good run for about 3 or 4 yrs.I
@@Damackism I could never get into Lady Death, the lore was interesting but I found the writing terrible.
@@Elementa2006 I agree. I just bought it for the art.
I still love the excessive sexy stuff of the 90s I find it funny and awesome. It reminds me of the extremely campy erotic novels of the 60s & 70s. I collect a lot of this kind dated literature. It’s just like buying some pinup mags from the 40s or 50s . I feel the nostalgia element and also the look into different eras of media in a time when people are trying to ban or get rid of anything sexual. I will never understand why so many people want to rid the world of sexuality in all forms of media.
Witchblade was classic. The Witchblade literally ripped off all her clothing for her.
Ah no point did I think this art style was weird when I was young. My Dad was a bit sceptical at the time, and when I look back I'm not surprised . And Powergirl is great
In the 90s, women in general dressed with less clothes. Look at the popular clothing of this period. Women were very sex-positive, so don't just assume it's sexist exploitation all the time
I visited the Walt Disney Museum in San Francisco, and my jaw dropped at some of the 'cheesecake' drawings the Disney company produced in the 1940s specifically to send to soldiers to keep their spirits up. 😲
I remember being in a comic shop around this time, a mother had brought her 12 year old son (he was about that age) in to buy some comics. The mother was very uncomfortable, and at one point I heard her tell him she wasn't going to buy him anything - "I really hate this place" I heard her say. That's kind of when I knew the Bag Girl phase was over.
Lived the comics life in the 90's and it. was. GLORIOUS! Besides Marvel & DC, we had Image, Valiant, Dark Horse, Fantagraphics (shout out to Peter Bagge's HATE!), Slave Labor Graphics, and other indies. Our covers were foiled, glow-in-the-dark, gate-folded, hologram'd and rendered in sweet, sweet, chromium. There was no social media poison or internet dreck. We read Comics Buyers Guide, Wizard, Hero, Overstreet Fan, and we loved it (shilling included)! In comic shops, we debated whether character X could beat down character Y, not whether Wolverine is bi-curious or whether the Martian Manhunter needs to check his green privilege. Bottom line...it was FUN. Plug me back into that Matrix anytime!
The 80s were like that except the stories and art were actually good. Good times...
@@scotthunt4206 To be fair, we 80s kids didn't have nearly the deluge of cover variants the 90s got saddled with. They did have that for themselves, and they're welcome to it.
@@richmcgee434 100%. Those are the strategies that took my pull list from 20-30 titles in 86 down to around 7-10 by 93. Nowadays, it's 2.
Its one of the main factors that i ended up moving away from generic superheroes and into the world of Vertigo and Morrisons Invisibles etc in the 90's. All the boots n boobs just seemed naff to me at the time.
I picked up a few Vertigo books back then just for the fact they had curse words and some nudity. Which is ironic considering the some superhero books that had "boobs in boots" didn't have mature themes like nudity and curse words lol.
I was shocked how many of the comments thought 90 skimpy outfits: yay, modern comics: boo ! I was also a teen in the 90s and probably liked the issues but looking at it now in your slideshow it does look kinda silly 🤔 ? Good video thanks
I also think Sue Storm's suit had influenced the design of Scarlett's Ninja Force uniform in G.I.JOE.
We need to hold Sisqo accountable for this.
Lmfao! There is a vice video that came out a few weeks back, untold story of the thong song, it's amazing!
This kind of silliness is part of why I got out of comics in the early 1990s and didn't get back into them until the mid-2000s. That xxxtreem 90s thing just made me roll my eyes. I didn't start reading comics again until I discovered titles like Geoff Johns' JSA and realized that the 90s xxxtr33m thing had lost its grip on comics.
Finally, a series about what's really important in comic books! 80s good girl (which is the style that Heroineburgh is mostly in) and 90s bad girl - it was all entertaining and escapist. There are still some series which are in this style today: Fem Force, Danger Girl, Tarot, Vampirella & Red Sonja, plus of course Adam Warren's Empowered, which does an amazing job of parodying these comic book fantasy tropes. Keep up the fun, Perch!
Everyone in the comments defending it, but I just find all the cheesecake of the 90s comics embarrassing. Don't get me wrong, it was titillating when I was 12. But if you're looking for that, we've got the internet now (and not just over some crappy 14.4 kbps dial-up connection). These days I'd rather have superhero comics I can feel comfortable sharing with my daughters.
I loved the 90s comics! I honestly don't remember a lot of the weird costumes like Sue Storm's. I remember that new run of Alpha Flight, the giant cast of Avengers, the ridiculous looking Captain America, Heroes Reborn, and finding stuff outside Marvel and DC like Image and Top Cow
"Headlights, headlights everywhere" 🤣
Great video analysis 😎👍#subscribed
Thank you for really giving the "Bad girl" era a nuanced view. Chaos comics with Lady Death and Purgatori were definitely over the top. Vampirella made a comeback, and Shi and Dawn were hot sellers. As someone who was there, I kinda think it was the Catwoman comic that caused the whole thing to jump the shark, but I could be wrong.
Yeah, but the 90s was a ridiculous era for superhero costumes, in general. Look at Cable, the Thor costumes from that era, mullet Superman, alternative versions of Batman, etc.
I genuinely enjoy 90's Valiant. This isn't just nostalgia. I went back and read nearly everything.
However, more on topic, I was more of a Marvel guy than anything, and being a Spider-Man and X-Men fan was hit or miss. I remember the X-Men anniversary issue penciled by Adam Kubert where every shot of Rogue flying was framed so that you can get maximum boobage. Even still, I wasn't embarrassed about X-Men with all the Rogue and Psylocke, but even back then (as you pointed out), I was suckered into spectualtor mentality and I was picking up Youngblood. I was super young and didn't want to be shamed for being a pervert, but I had those comics in my hand. Honestly though, more than the T & A or the pouches, I remember all the gritting teeth. It feels nauseating just thinking about the comic book grimacing back at you all day.
I think there's a line, and a lot of these sexy superhero costumes blew over my head unless it was the extreme style. I think I was more embarrassed holding a Witchblade comic in the 2000's though.
A lot of my friends around my age (30's) remember the cards and the shows, but the comics were unreadable. X-Men #1-6 from 1991 is cool to look at and have as an art piece, but they're so hard to read.
Those Shooter era Valiants are good reads.
The worst part was the broken back pose, the thunder thighs and the terrible Bob Leifield proportions.
I used to turn my nose up at the "Bad Girl" comics, as I was more into DC and Vertigo at the time(and a bit full of myself tbh). I did love Silvestri and Lee's ladies, but was NOT into Sue's look. I remember most people I knew laughing about some of the ridiculous costumes of both female and male characters(The 'Pouches & Grimises' were made fun of at the time, which seems to have been forgotten). Funnily enough it was a girl I was seeing who got me into reading Lady Death, Dawn and Gen 13, which led to Danger Girl(I'm still unsure if Mr Campbell ever finished that...). Re the joke you went over in She-Hulk, it wouldn't have worked if she was fat. That doesn't take away the humorous intent, it's just like any other joke that's situational, no situation, no joke...
Everybody where drawing like Jim Lee and made it worse (Liedeld, Tann, The Kuberts, Epting etc)
Only Silvestri and Macfarlane had original style
I am scared of whoever was turned on by that 90's version of the Wasp.
Power Girl's costume was conservative and borderline prudish in the '90s, but today her costume is considered to be way too exploitative.
I still unironically liked Sue's Outfit. Don't judge me.
Not gonna lie - it was Mike Deodato's mid-90s run on Wonder Woman that first got me into DC.
A perspective from a female comic book reader during the 90s. My issue wasn't with the suggestive outfits and extreme angles... my issue was more that the focus seemed to be on showing the female form is some odd way to maximize the 'sex' effect while providing very little story to go with it. The cost went up but the time spent in 'reading' the comic went down as there was less actual plot and more cheesecake art. This is not meant to be a negative on the art style. I think there needs to be a middle ground. Frankly, I love Red Sonya and Vampirella. They were gorgeous gals running around in skimpy outfits. But their stories (back in the 70s and 80s) were entertaining too.
Great video Perch!
Ahhh the good ol days! Back when I was in my teens to early 20,s. The bad girl era. The one comic book trend that came and went pretty quickly.
But it was a good time period for indie comics and manga. But when it came to Marvel doing it they were trying too hard. Especially with soccer mom Sue Storm and Force Works Scarlett Witch.
Asian Psylocke,s costume is iconic at this point. You combine hot woman +ninja = bad ass.
I felt the 90,s had a good balance of comics you bought to read and comics you bought to oogle for the art ( and the scantily clad hot female characters).
The 90,s ironically had all the inclusivity and diversity that the twitterverse demands. But without all the socio political BS. The 90,s had comics and genres for all types of readers.
Chaos Comics were birthed from this time it's without question what got me to even consider getting invested in the hobby. There is usally an image that shoots to the front of your brain when you think comics for some its spiderman, batman , but for me it's always that smile of Evil Ernie. So yes, agreed the clones didn't get it, you have to have some amount of substance and your artwork should stand on its own. RIP Stephen Hughes -Legend. SWORN
Okay, I'm still subbed to you but I swear your videos are mostly not showing up in my feed lately. Goddamn youtube...
I pretty much agree with you. I was working-then-assistant manager in a comic shop in the latter half of the 90s. Savage land Rogue was cool, in that fun and titillating way, but that was also because Rogue was normally almost completely covered (she's also my favourite Marvel character, so there's some bias). Otherwise, it mostly didn't work for a lot of Marvel and DC characters, but there were some for whom it did (Emma Frost always comes to mind; she owned her sexuality and wore it like a badge of honour). I think it was a matter of the big two there trying to mimic the success of some of the indies, like everything from Chaos! Comics (which was so fun).
To me, it's not about what was or was not done when it comes sexualizing anyone (which is not even inherently a bad thing, I'd like to point out), just that they could without some harpies on Twatter throwing a tantrum. This is all because of the sex-negative turn what passes for "feminism" these days has taken; it's built on nonsense like "the male gaze" and the Oppression Olympics of Intersectionality. Ultimately, it denies the agency of the women because it says to them that they can't dress sexy for their own benefit or pleasure (like Emma Frost), but it must always be for the pleasure of men. Or a diagnosis of "Internalized Misogyny" will swiftly be applied.
For me, it's never been a matter of "female comic characters in the 90s were never sexualized" so much as "Yeah? So what if they were? I like cheesecake."
Another problem when talking about decades as "the 'x0s" whether the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s, etc. is that trends rarely land on the oughts. With comics, when people say "the '40s", they usually mean anything between 1938 and 1953, because they use it interchangeably with "the Golden Age". At DC, the "'60s" started in 1956 (except for Batman, which stayed in the 1950s until 1964.) Marvel truly began in '61 (as opposed to Timely or Atlas), so at least at Marvel the '60s are the '60s. The "All-New All Different X-Men" hit in '75. The "New Teen Titans" did hit in 1980. But 'Watchmen" and "The Dark Knight Returns" were mid-80s. This led to the Speculation Boom, which ended mid-90s. And comics during the boom are different than the comics after.
You make a solid point. The early 90s/Image era was the golden age of art-over-story for comics. Lots of sexy women in absurd costumes doing silly things in dull, go-nowhere stories. It was a feast for the eyes, and a snooze for the brain.
For a while there, Marvel Comics had only two major female characters who weren't regularly shown as absurdly sexy: Destiny (Brotherhood/Freedom Force) and Katie Power.
With great fanservice, comes great responsibility.
The 90's rocked. Late 80's up to 2000 is for me still the most 'fun' comic wise. Tend to pick those up the most.
Closely followed by the 2000-2010 period. Early or post 2010 rarely holds my interest. Happens but it's far rarer.
The 90s were awesome. But that bad girl craze was exactly that....BAAAAAAAAAD!
I remember the 90s as the Anything Goes Era where you not only had the second wave of Indie comics but more creators who were inspired by Dark Knight and Watchmen started writing "Darker" more challenging material! some of it was pretentious or silly but at least they made the effort! Yes, there were "hot babe" comics but some of the Indie publishers were actually publishing "adult" funnies!
I enjoyed the work of PETER BAGGE, MIKE GRELL, TODD McFARLANE, 'BETO HERNANDEZ and a whole lot more ! I looked for fun comics and there were PLENTY of them in the 90s and just like previous eras, you had to shop around!
Right now in Seattle, on some street corner, PERCH is sipping a latte with three shots of espresso wearing the Sue Storm "4 Window" top and singing Wayne Newton songs for tips. For $10 he'll emulate the Glory/Avengelyne cover. Crowd funding comics is a hard dark road but bucks is bucks!
I always thought that my love for early to mid 90's comics was based on nostalgia (because that's when I started reading comics). But I've been rereading the X books from that era... And I still love them. There's a lot to be critical of, but the stories had stakes, the characters are developed. I think it will always be my favorite era.
I think the 90's are remembered fondly because of the comics "community" more than the quality of the main stream comics. My favorite titles from the 90's were The Tick, Johnny the Homicidal Maniac, and Madman. But anyway. There was a real "Flesh and Blood/Brick and Mortar" fandom who would have actual face to face conversations about comics (and movies and TV shows) in actual shops. It was like going the bar in "Cheers". It was fun to hang out with like-minded (often warped minded) individuals. I know there are still some shops around today but in the 90s, that was the ONLY place to go for such activity so it really was special. As for the oversexed portrayal of women... Yes, it was silly but no more so than the unrealistically muscular men in spandex. It's make-believe and fantasy. That's sort of the whole point.
that Enchantress side-by-side is amazing.
I think you had a number of factors going into the '90s outfits that were held on by hopes and dreams and double-sided tape.
*"Bad good girl" characters were all the rage at the time.
*Rob Liefield, for good or bad, seemed to be getting the zeigiest of the era.
*A lot of the creators were coming out of the "puritanical" era of the '80s, back when the D&D Satanic Panic was at it's peak and the Moral Majority and that the Soviet Union was either about to fall or WAS falling.
*We didn't know it at the time, but this was the era of the last stand of the second wave/early third-wave feminists in academia, who were of the "let the boys be boys, let the girls be girls, and let them be the BEST boys and girls they can be" philosophy.
*Anime was starting to be less of a niche product in this era, and the expectations were showing up.
*The rise of the "new indies" that had to get readers reading them and in this pre-Internet era, they figured that the audience at conventions and from what they heard about at stores was pretty consistent, so that meant selling to teenage to young adult boys, and that usually meant boobs.
For all of the sins of the era, I miss the costumes and the characters and the stories. Might not have been deep, but they were fun.
That's a shame. That Sue Storm costume was my favorite lol
When some many comic book characters are basically drawn nude in costume anyways, it’s kind of hard to take complaints about how revealing or not revealing some costumes are too seriously. That Sue Storm costume isn’t great or anything, (although it’s kind of more fun in hindsight as a product of the time) but if you colored in the flesh colored bits blue, black, or white it’s still the same drawing. Nothing would change about how she’s being drawn there even if there wasn’t any “skin” showing. Funnily her Jim Lee Heroes Reborn look is probably more “revealing” looking than that one with the boob window and it’s full bodysuit; but it doesn’t have that white which breaks of the line of her cleavage, so it has even more of a nude look. This isn’t an example of a comic, but it is a comic character; the first time I ever saw Sabertooth was in the '90s X-Men cartoon, (looked up the episode, it’s called: Cold Vengeance) and I thought he was basically naked because of how he was colored.
That ‘90s Sue costume almost seems like a joke. She's more “nude” than a lot of other heroes at the time, but that white part of the costume on her chest looks like something is covering her, where most everyone else (male and female) in the '90s have costumes that look like they were painted on their naked body.
Did the 90's go to far with over sexualizing their characters? Yup. And not just the woman but the men as well. But in all honesty if you look at the overall quality of the artwork then compared to the quality of the artwork now can you really question why people preferred the 90's? Hell, not just the artwork but the writing as well. Or maybe some people just really like pouches, lots and lots of pouches. I don't get it but to each their own.
Keep the morality police out, that is always the best option.
I was a teenager in the 90's and while I do remember paying a little more but also being excited about all the foil covers, what I would have thought was sexy art at the time, and what I remember as good stories like Batman: Knightfall (and many are what got me into the comics and character I love today).
The Fantastic Four originally didn't even have skintight spandex superhero-style costumes, but jumpsuits that were drawn to be a looser fit. That's why Sue Storm suddenly going for an over the top 90's superhero costume looks weird, the F4 is a superhero book but they always had a different aesthetic.
Seeing that Glory/Avangeline cover with the added blurbs reminds me that I used to visit this blog/site that would point these out. It was fun to goof on them but the site became so preachy and "this is detrimental to women, etc." that I haven't visited in years. It was more often than not just an excuse to hide the short comings of the artist.
As someone who mainly began to regularly buy comics during the 90s, I have mixed feelings. As far as over sexualized costume, I mostly remember Witchblade... and the tendency of clothes to get torn and revela everything except some very specific parts where the fabric would magically stay glued to the skin. Which makes me think you probably have a point with the porn guy jumping over the middleman (comics) as we often laughed at the hypocrisy of deliberately tearing a female costume apart to tease but never enough to really show anything scandalous.
That being said, it was also the decades during which the medium discovered/embraced digital coloring, as well as foreign influences, mainly from Japanese comics.
So, yes, this was certainly style over substance because style seemed to be in mutation more than anything.
It was easy to look at maintstream Marvel and Image and think of it as junkfood while the Vertigo line produced real 3 stars meals.
I certainly used to think as such.
But, in retrospect, I think it was a long decade of mutation and trying to find what was next after the 80s.
Almost like the 90s were just a think tank, a step to walk on to reach the 2000.
Also, without the 90s, we would never have had Adam Warren's Gen13 parody of Kung Fu action flicks and Magical Girls... and I'm thankfull for that reason alone ^^
You should take a look at Warren's more recent Empowered, the main character is essentially a deconstruction of the "improbably adhesive when shredded to tatters costume" trope.
@@richmcgee434 I'll check it, thanks. I must admit his Gen13 stuff went right to my heart at the time... HK action and Anime... perfect timing. But, yeah, I'll check Empowered then. Thanks
Ugh. Ugly flashbacks of imbecile “articles” and discussions about the patriarchy and Power Girls rack from people who never cared about comics in the first place...I think by now The Mary Sue is proven to be a bullshit site, as their type of “feminism” is. Bad art and poor character design is hardly oppressing anybody. Only time I defended Rob Liefeld - I remember even Gary Groth chimed in Liefeld’s favor - Liefeld and the whole phenomenon.
Wouldn’t it be great if we could put all those types of people on a large island somewhere? Let them bicker among themselves about the patriarchy, or maybe they could start a matriarchy, and watch as it collapses in no time.
Really I don’t care where these people go, as long as it’s far away from me, because I’m sick to death of these people. I just want them to go away.
@@tomcruisenukedmyaccount5388 Yea I’d say they would, because none of them would be able to build anything, or do really anything other than kill & eat each other.
@@InfamyOrDeath-__- Someone always wants to put some group of people on an island somewhere and forget about them, not realizing that you yourself will eventually end up on that island for something you did that annoyed someone else in power. The best way to handle these people is to not buy their comics and don't even talk about their crappy SJW characters. Destroy them with silence and indifference. That's an artists' greatest fear.
@@trueLuminus But that’s been happening for the last few years & they’re still here, no one is buying their SJW crap, their comics get cancelled but they just keep rebooting it & won’t stop, because as soon as one gets in to a job they totally take over the industry, only hiring other SJW’s & they multiply like rats.
@@InfamyOrDeath-__- They haven't been ignored. People keep making videos about it constantly. The chatter is endless. Look at all that controversy things like the New Warriors, Fat Wonder Woman, and Carol "Manverse" a.k.a. Carol Danvers (Captain Marvel) created. Their goal is to get you to look and talk about it, not profit. When they make the next Snowflake and Safe Space, just completely ignore it. Let them die a silent death.
As I recall, the 90s is when Power Girl lost the keyhole opening costume.
I'm not convinced that the majority of people actually change their mind when confronted with new facts that contradict their existing beliefs. You may, of course, attempt to convince me I'm wrong. :)
A lot of weird trends in comics art often happens simply because it's easier/quicker to draw than average normal costumes. Superhero costumes in general came from tight deadlines where artists just had no time to sketch every different types of clothes that exist in real world.
I'm now thinking Princess Projectra of the 1970s was quite a trail-blazing character.
Hey, i was a teenager in the 90s and this guy is wrong, this depiction of women superheroes in the comics was VERY popular. The current depiction of women as ugly and male looking is NOT. The sales numbers also back both points up.
I remember sexuality being an important topic in some of my favorite 90’s books, if you ask me, nobody did it better then Gen13! They actually looked at the issues from the kids age groups and points of view that they were representing in the book and the did not pull any punches. gay, lesbian, bisexual... and the pit falls and problems that come within all of those groups were all covered... while being an enjoyable read and yes, lots of 90’s skin.
So, they made it serve a purpose... was such a good book
You forgot Kirby original costume for Big Barda
Or how almost every single female human ("animal" if you prefer) in Kamandi was topless all the time, albeit with very, very conveniently placed hair thanks to the Comics Code. To be fair, I can't recall seeing Kamandi himself with a shirt on very often either. :)
I'll take the 90's female character designs over the 2015 and beyond any day. At least it was interesting.. not boring, safe and uninspired.
Nah. The terrible anatomy is not worth it to me.
Yo! Lady Death is not Marvel. Puldo is still rockin that style today.
Not only that he went beyond that style. If he's not careful he gonna be ascend into sainthood.
Making good Iron-Age-style costumes is stupid easy: Just take the classic superhero tights, apply geometric patterns to them, then add a couple cyberpunk accessories on top, don't forget the pouches, and Rob's your uncle!
Vince Russo saw these comics and told Vinny Mac, “this!”
What always bugged me, and bugs me still, is how the costumes coated the women's breasts instead of simply covering them.
I remember reading some prominent comics artist (I forget which) saying they basically drew the women naked and then colored them in.
7:27 Sheeit, I had no problem picking up the "Sue Storm in a bikini" issues of Fantastic Four when it first came out AND when I bought them again when I was rebuilding my FF collection. At that age, it was the sexy drawn women in the 90's is part of the reason why I started collecting and kept collecting comics. It's also part of the reason why I got into anime/manga. Sex sells. It is what it is.
The early days of Anime/Comic Fusion art designs were silly when artist were taking examples from Sailor Moon. I remember seeing a Gen13 issue that had Roxy with legs as long and the image of Enchantress, and I though isn't she supposed to be short.
I vote we bring back this female depiction in comics, I’ll happily say that the majority of comic fans will like this.
Here here!!!
No, thank you. The anatomy in 90s books was wretched and I never want to see it again. Stripping most of their clothing off just makes the bumbling artistic ineptitude more obvious. You want good cheesecake, you either go back a ways to Wally Wood and Frank Frazetta or step past the 90s and get Frank Cho and maybe Adam Warren.
@You murdered that guy The picture with the 2 girls back to back? You’re completely crazy, that looks great.
Yes I agree. And we should get the old she hulk when she looked feminine. Just look at her current design, they made her look more masculine when she was posted by the Phoenix force
Though, sometimes ridiculously revealing, there are some good designs. My problem is mainly with the style and body language.