A lot of those titles ended because of the artists. They fell behind, they made more money going to conventions, they got burned out on comics culture, they decided to take a break and have kids, they lost interest and moved on to other books, etc. And when the artists loses momentum, I think it's easy for the writers to move onto other things rather than complete the project.
@@KaareAndrewsProd Good point! Kirkman was on record saying he gave all the royalties (100%) from the single issues of Walking dead to the artist to keep him engaged and happy. Smart move that kept the series going and of course profitable for everyone involved (trades, media etc).
Babs Tarr cancelled herself after the Twitter weirdos turned on her for drawing a white girl with a tan. I'm not being dramatic or facetious here, she literally posted a huge apology and asked that nobody defend her and I don't believe they've created a new issue since that happened a couple years ago.
And she called everyone who was defending her "comicsgate fucks" and told them to stop defending her. She’s got a nice art style, shame she was hell-bent on social media suicide.
The biggest problem plaguing western comics is the lack of marketing. It's completely baffles me that these companies aren't doing more to make people aware that their product exists.
Where would they market to? TV commercials? Billboards? Sending writers on late night TV? Our community is so small they won't advertise there...best they can hope nowadays is a full page in Previews, a UA-cam person endorses it to get slabbed the minute you buy it and a poster for the LCS. To me availability and marketing are different as a kid I had more access to buy comics than I do as an adult. Every gas station or grocery store had them, now it's a specialty store that doesn't exist in most towns or online to buy unseen (unread).
Nah. It's...most of the writer and artist are just killing time, until either one of the big 2 see their work then put them on a book with a steady weekly check that is much higher from what their sales and cut would be from image, or what they had to give image when their book is sold
Do you think this problem has more to do with the individual creators or Image as a publisher? Given the impression I get of Image where it’s all about creator freedom I’m inclined to think that the blame falls more on the creators’ shoulders if a book is majorly delayed or just disappears. But I’m clearly not an expert on this subject so I’d be interested in your take.
There's no new deal that Image can offer to the Saga creators because Image already offers the best possible deal to creators from the start. Image is not a publisher, it's a self-publishing platform more similar to Kickstarter or Amazon than to Marvel/DC. If the Saga duo stopped producing Saga isn't because of money reasons. It made them more money than they'll make at the majors in their whole life. In this sense, gotta give a lot of credit to Kirkman for continuing creating series (and caring) when he could retire and live like a king for life.
I can speak from experience, Rat Queens suffered from my own fears. It was a series Roc and I thought would get five issues and then be canceled. So, we went in with ZERO expectation and went wild with every idea. It got swept up into a movement and I bought into that hard, and by doing so the series lost its simplistic charm. This was peak 2015 when we all believed social media was reality. Dark times, indeed. Personal life stresses and troubles cannot be ignored when it comes to Image titles. It's a major factor, as everything is on the creative's shoulders.
When a book goes away, I have no idea when its going to come back... Media is so poor that unless I go out looking for something I don't know whats going on with it. I miss Wizard. lol.
I'm glad someone finally brought up Babs Tarr's name, because that's a fascinating case. She's a Twitch streamer now and an Instagramer (nearly 200k followers!) Her Patreon has over 1100 patrons! She's effectively left comics and brought her audience with her. How long can she sustain that audience on enamel pin sales and naughty commissions? Only time will tell...
Oh, and she also had an art show at Gallery Nucleus this month. (They do lots of animator and comic creator art shows.). All the pieces sold out for a pretty good chunk of change. www.gallerynucleus.com/events/854. The more I look into the Babs Tarr Business Model, the more I'm actually impressed. She has a fervent tribe, and doesn't need comics anymore.
@@PipelineComics the model works even better with actual comics thrown into the mix. speaking from experience. but yeah there are way better options available nowadays than just the oldschool work for hire models
if i divide the pagecount of sunstone so far i'm somewhere at about 50 comic issues so far :P so that's kinda long running. not bad for a dumbass who stumbled upon a writing career when i burned out on art XD
This behavior is why I've become very picky on what comics I start reading. Why should I get invested in a comic for it to vanish into limbo or "hiatus"? In some cases, like the comic Rocketgirl I get that the creators stepped away to take a paying gig at Marvel work on Devil Dinosaur and Moongirl, but since they abandoned things a few issues into the second arc I dropped the comic and never returned.
I love Image. All of the Spawn books. Saga, Deadly Class, Descender/Ascender, Black Science, Gideon Falls, The Weatherman.... I think Image is great for adult American comics. So for people that are sick of the big 2 and their activism and don't want to go full on Manga, then Image is a perfect place to go. It's also a good place to go for people sick and tired of super heroes. Again.... more adult. Saga news came last month, Vaughn is currently working on it now.
I used to love superhero comics, but so many of the books they're putting out our mediocre at best and are dragged on for too long in the arcs. Maybe i just want a 2 or 3 issue story max.
Image money must not be much if they can't seem to keep anyone. They kept Kirkman by making him a partner, but you can't do that with everyone. Hype and praise doesn't necessarily translate to sales
This just makes me depressed. Y’all keep mentioning more and more titles that I really like, that were my favorite at the time. But that they just floundered to cancellation or failing sales :( . Birthright somehow miraculously plodded along to a 50-issue completion, but I know sales are crap. And I still read Die. But everything else that fell apart, it’s a DAMN SHAME
Image is great. And its great that creators have so much ownership and control. But there is a flip side to that. Without the oversight structure above them that the companies like Marvel and DC have, its much easier for a book to disappear. Some creators (even if only on some of their books) need the help of deadlines or editorial guidance.
Excluding comics like Saga, I'm sure low sales is the the thing killing the vast majority of these comics. You brought up Witches starting out at over 60k in sales, but what did its last issue sell? I bet it wasn't 60k. The main problem Image has is that it is selling stuff mostly on the direct market. The direct market wasn't made to sell comics. It was made to sell Marvel and DC superhero comics. Outside of some notable exceptions, nothing is really going to thrive in the direct market if it isn't from the big 2. Image needs to try and expand its business model to reach out to new markets. It is criminal that Image lacks any kind of online subscription service. They need to figure out how to share these profits with creators and make something like Marvel unlimited or Viz's app. The great tragedy of the American comic book industry is that it has everything it needs to compete with manga and Scholastic. Marvel has the corporate clout and support, DC has (or at least had) the editorial structure and Image has the content. The problem is that even if they were to combine into one Megazord like super company, none of them have the business sense to just copy what manga is doing.
This is exactly the issue. Many Image comics surpass average or above average Manga but the mainstream who would read them. Don’t know they exist. Personally I think they should keep making Invincible esque shows on Amazon Prime and then make themselves Comixology exclusives that would be most similar though not as good as VIZ app
@@AdrianT-jw2sz They wouldn't be able to compete with manga sales in Japan. But could they be competitive with manga sales in the USA? Yes. Look at the success of Invincible and the Walking Dead after they were adapted. Invincible sold over 100,000 copies of its trades after just one season of a streaming show on Amazon. Brand synergy and easy to understand numbering for trades matter.
Image doesn't have a problem. It's all about creator owned books. The creators do what they want when they want. Total freedom for the creators, as long as your book sells well enough to manage to make some $. Image isn't a typical publisher. They don't own anything and it's all on the creators.
Is it just me or does Joe sound more like Perch than Perch does in this video. Maybe the audio is off or I'm loosing my mind, but it was almost like listening to Perch have a conversation with Perch at a slightly different pitch.
I remember when they first started out. They were a solid number three behind only DC and Marvel. They seem to be slipping more than thriving as of late. They did revolutionize action figures. That seems to be their most enduring contribution. Walking Dead is successful, but it's shit to my eyes.
Geiger Is taking a break while John’s does a couple other series in the universe it’s becoming more of a black hammer style thing (a few books in a universe telling one story)
Speaking of Image comics that actually finished, Williamson and Bressan just wrapped up Birthright at issue 50. Took about 6 1/2 years, so there were delays, but still a major accomplishment. I've only read around 10+ issues (I discovered it late) but from what I've seen it's a well-written, beautiful fantasy book that I intend to keep reading.
The publisher of Image, Eric Stephenson, has 2 books that just petered out. Nowhere Men and They're Not Like us were great reads. I know there was an artist issue with NM but still, if the publisher of the company can't manage to complete a project it's no surprise that these independent contractors can't either.
Image has an ... image problem. When they started off, they pitched themselves as being more extreme and cool than the Big 2 would let them. In short, Marvel on testosterone. Somewhere along the way, they shifted over to cerebral literature that only appeals to lit majors in liberal arts colleges. Despite Image's origins, I regularly hear pundits refer to Image as the place to go when you don't want superhero comics. At some point, Image needs to decide what kind of publisher it wants to be and go all in with a consistent publishing schedule on titles that hit.
@Avingay Anfordstay The individual lines are creator owned and creator controlled. Image is not really the owner of that stuff unlike Marvel/DC. So the whole „shared universe“ was just a gimmick in the beginning, but they actually don’t really share a universe. Or when they share a universe, then it’s in the same way as Marvel and DC share a universe: there are stories that combine Marvel and DC, but for 99.9% of the stories they don’t share a universe.
@Avingay Anfordstay I read early Image and yes, they did a lot of crossover promotions. They obviously tried to be the new Marvel. BUT they are not structured like Marvel/DC, which means there is no real free flow of characters (i.e. villains or team based heroes) that can show up at unexpected places and take roots. I.e. a Spawn villain can not become the long term nemesis of the Witchblade as these are two separated ownerships. This will always limit their type of shared universe as it will never be truly shared, just a lot of crossovers.
Image in the early 90s was more about art than writing.if they hadn't diversified their publishing line they'd have been left behind as an embarrassingly extreme relic of the 90s. Image today has more quality stories as well as art. The creators don't have to bow down to editorial mandates, or have to change a story direction because it might sell more.image was the bad boy rebel of the 90s, but now it's grown up and evolved.
@@mttylerdurden9 yes, now the characters argue over which bathroom is best suited for them. This is great storytelling. And i find it comical people that still believe in evolution despite all the evidence of devolution. But hey, you do you
This is my issue with a lot of indies. I want to know it will continue. Saga was devastating as I started and finished it in 2019 and no end to the hiatus in sight
I'm not familiar with all the modern IMAGE comics because I'm from Mexico. Editorial VID brought Spawn, Gen13, Danger Girl, Darkness and Witchblade in spanish in my teenage years. The only modern title I've picked up is SAGA because of it's critical acclaim thinking it was auto-conclusive (bought the three HC volumes). Hope they conclude the series soon.
I hear you Perch. Late books are a pain for retailers, I hate that PA got behind, and I'm good with deadlines generally but Covid and life brought challenges this past year and that affected work. Time is a big part of what makes some of the books you guys mentioned so great. Not an excuse really, but a reason, sometimes fate intervenes and fucks shit up.
I completely agree with Joe's take on Crossover #7. I loved the first 6 issues and just could not force myself to buy #7 after finding out what it was about and flipping through the pages. I hope #8 can pull me back in. Or even comes out:)
This is interesting because i feel the average person is like spawn is doing great they just started spawn universe and image is doing great because of it but there are so many other amazing book series that they just stop for no reason. I respect ending a story once the story is done and writer did what the writer wanted besides keeping the story going on forever but some of these end out of no where or for no reason and it makes no sense sometimes. That being said i am loving the new spawn stuff lol
Fiona Staples art and I'm there. Brian K Vaughn writing and I'm there. Both together, and the hiatus melts away. But I get your frustration with Image. I've started too many books with them and had the comic fade away, fizzle out unfinished. It's like buying a novel with the last chapters ripped out. That can't be easy material to promote and sell.
I've noticed that some Image series will disappear when the writer gets work at the Big 2. Nick Spencer has done this twice now. I enjoyed Morning Glories and The Fix, but I have no hope of ever seeing them continue.
I see a lot of holes in your logic on this one, guys. I don't see how Image's business model shows any motivation for creators to continue their independent creator owned work to take bigger paychecks from the big two. As far as Saga goes. There is no way on Earth you can convince me that when it returns it won't be the highest selling release that month. There will be ten variants to ensure that. That's the new way of hitting those big numbers. Then the title will settle right back in evening out at similar numbers to where it left off or maybe higher. I'm betting that a lot of new readers have bought trade paperbacks since the hiatus started and they'll be just as in as the original reading audience.
Is this mostly an Image and creator-owned book publisher problem, or do the other indies fail this, as well? I’m trying to think and, for example, it looks like Boom doesn’t even attempt any long-running series, big creator or not, unless it’s a licensed property or Giant Days or Irredeemable.
Im still buying Ascender & LOW, but only as the trades hit preorder. Aside from that catching up on Oblivion Song & waiting on something …anything from Dead Eyes (Dead Rabbits fmrly) A lot of the books from Image just don’t appeal to me or disappear (VS). Some of the titles from creators with Big 2 ties just look like half baked Netflix pitches, all hoping for that sweet TWD magical deal.
Isola was a hot book that kind of disappeared too. The art was phenomenal. I just thought the book meandered too much in the writing and didnt move enough. Its pretty much disappeared since early last year. Im sure the art took a long time too. Its one of those books that should have maybe been trade only. Its also reason you need writing that doesnt meander.
It feels like Image and/or the various creators get bored if a title gets beyond a certain length and thus titles just languish. The graphic novels seem to be bizarrely published, too. So, it isn’t just me. Ascender, Undiscovered Country, Saga, Copperhead, Rat Queens, and Monstress are the ones that just drop off. “The Walking Dead” was one where the change in the graphic novels to omnibus formats was more than a bit funky for readers, too.
Some of these titles just finished. Southern Bastards and Wytches, for example, ended in a good way (even if they could’ve carried on), so why complain about them not continuing? Not everything has to be an ongoing series, and I’d much rather have a good, concise story.
I so desperately want more southern bastard !! I send a message to Jason latour every 6 month saying I hope he’s doing well and asking him to do more bastards !
add Clone to the mix. after 20/21 issues they went on hiatus and never came back. ive reached out the the writers asking if they plan to revisit the title and its all crickets. i assume as others have suggested it was all to get option attention.
I suspect a few of the newer titles are comics purly to option the idea to get a TV series/movie made and after a few issues and no interest the series just stops. im sure Vaughan and Staples are making plenty of money outside of the comic medium.
Scott Snyder likely stopped because at heart he's a DC Comics Batman writer and really doesn't have too much of his own story to tell. So, yeah, he probably got bored because he's probably not too invested in his own stuff.
Isn't that the appeal of creating for Image? If you start to get burned out and have another idea you can jump to another title? Savage Dragon isn't exactly Spider Man.
Perch! Joe! What happened to Fraction/Ba/Moon’s CASANOVA?? Occasionally on Image and sometimes on Icon. Image was the last publisher. Another one with no news, right? I loved Casanova!! Is it too Problematic after 2016?? 🤔🤔🤷♂️🤷♂️
I wish I knew what happened to Hell Yeah. 6 issues came out, the trade collected the first 5, and up to issue 9 had been solicited. It jus dissapeared though.
Image should have a Shonen Jump style magazine selling all of their old and/or completed series in grocery stores, gas stations, etc. Would be super cheap to do and would bring tons of attention to their products in stores.
My knowledge of Image is pretty much limited to the founding characters (Spawn, original Youngblood, Savage Dragon etc.), so I'm spending the entire video trying to look up who the flying lady in pink with the white cape on the top left is... got nothing.
She is a character from Ultra by the Luna brothers. This image is the wraparound cover to Invincible #60 a part of the Invincible War in which evil Invincibles from other dimensions are brought in and all the image universe has to fight them off.
the other issue is...there are even less good new image comics coming out than like 4-5 years ago. i remember 5 years ago, just a ton of great books to be excited about...now, I barely even get 1 a month
I think most of these title delays is because the creators just haven’t gotten around to working on them. Some of these creators are balancing TV & film careers and some of them are balancing mainstream work and some of them launched a book with the intention of rolling it into a Netflix series and when the book reaches a certain threshold they move on. These publishing pauses have very little to do with Image management. The lack of marketing certainly does but Eric Stephenson is not pumping the brakes on these titles. The creative teams are just not getting around to working on the books.
If your book doesnt get released in a certain time frame, you wont get paid in one of the 6 month windows that Image does. Books cant be made if folks arent getting paid quickly enough. Books are made by the creators own budget or sweat till Image pays them their royalties. Also in Trades, I hear that image gets 30% and they expect the cheap 9.95 or whatever the cheap rate is now. So after wholesale/distributor discount, Image is the only one making money since they arent paying the creator costs. They are taking a good chunk of the profits in that regard.
Vaughn must be making money elsewhere. Tv? But imagine if he’s burnt out on Saga and can’t return to writing for years? I’d imagine it’s an intense series for him and Staples. I’ll be back when they return because it was excellent!
Thing is, if you buy one series from a company, invest in it, and it gets cut short, you might try again. If you buy two that stop, maaaaybe you'll try again if you're an optimist. But if you get burned three times and you probably won't pick up anything from that company ever again.
I might be completely wrong but maybe focusing more on the digital side than print might be the smart move for Image. You look at Viz with the two bucks a month. Do something similar? I have laid this out before but if they are getting such low returns on print, might be time to switch it up?
Re: Following creative teams... I've said other places, I may like creators (Snyder/Capullo, Murphy) on Batman books, but just couldn't get into their Image books (Undiscovered Country & Tokyo Ghost), just not my cuppa.
I am still waiting for the rest of Nick Spencer's BEDLAM. Southern Bastards was recently published in Mexico in four collected HC editions. Nices stuff. Motor Crush was a book I bought like, for 3.99 the 1st collected edition on instocktrades, and was bummed to know it was cancelled. Not my favourite book, but nice stuff for vcheap price😅 Rocket Girl by Amy Reeder also jusrt got to vol 2 and then it was gone. Saludos desde Panamá.
War Heroes. A limited series that had no conclusion. In the beginning Image tried to be more extreme in action and art. Now, they are aimless and just trying to keep from drowning.
😂🤣😂. My take on it.... creators are parking IPs with a finished arc. Thier all looking for that streaming cash. Why do another arc, you've created the IP, you've wrote a successful arc. Park it and see if you can create another one that could be picked up.
interesting...for me Image (including TopCow etc etc.) is of course Spawn. And Midnight Nation. And The Darkness. and Savage Dragon. And SAGA. And Lazarus. And Invincible. And Brit. and the walking dead. And WildCATS. And Happy. And Descender. And Ascender. And Rat Queens. And The Agency. And Revenge. And Millarworld. But true, the sudden stop of books is annoying at times. I have quite a few surprise Image cancelations wrecks in my comicus interruptus box. But, Image mostly not being the owner of the work I'm unsure how much leverage they have, and this is really a lack of knowledge how those contracts work. Which opens up the question: how do they work? does anybody happen to know and care to share?
WHY isn't John Byrne doing something with his NEXT MEN? Simply put, Image separates the men and women from the boys and girls! Image is a TRUE publisher who handle publishing and advertising but the rest is up to the creators and their staff! It's relatively easy to look like a genius when you work on a title like Superman, a book almost 100 years old, with a tremendous legacy! Creating your own world and characters is a LOT harder! Outside of comics, go to a used bookstore, look at the many books and titles and note how many of the writers whose names you recognize!
Without spoilers, can anybody tell me whether or not Saga currently feels like a complete story? I’m considering buying the complete edition during ComiXology’s sale, but I hate stories that feel unfinished.
Sounds like imagine needs to actually step up and be a real publisher. Seems like they are just kind of hands off and leave it to the creators, instead of hiring a whole marketing department and leadership team to make sure these books are pushed and information is available about them.
Despite Spawn, Image really isn’t recognizable anymore. Top Cow, which used to be a favorite imprint of mine, seems to be vapor at this point. Witchblade, Darkness is eh. Everything there has been defanged and lost its sex appeal. Which let’s be honest was their main stock and trade for many of their titles. They were doing some interesting things around with their shared world around 2010/11. It would be nice if Image would pick Darker Image back up as an anthology series with different writer and artists as a pilot series. Perch-San, it’s always a pleasure when you and Joe Goldblum press the flesh.
A lot of those titles ended because of the artists. They fell behind, they made more money going to conventions, they got burned out on comics culture, they decided to take a break and have kids, they lost interest and moved on to other books, etc. And when the artists loses momentum, I think it's easy for the writers to move onto other things rather than complete the project.
@@KaareAndrewsProd Great point! :)
@@KaareAndrewsProd Good point! Kirkman was on record saying he gave all the royalties (100%) from the single issues of Walking dead to the artist to keep him engaged and happy. Smart move that kept the series going and of course profitable for everyone involved (trades, media etc).
Pity that.
@@KaareAndrewsProd What's stopping artists from just dropping the writer entirely and coming up with their own stuff?
Seems to describe George R.R. Martin, pretty accurately.
Babs Tarr cancelled herself after the Twitter weirdos turned on her for drawing a white girl with a tan. I'm not being dramatic or facetious here, she literally posted a huge apology and asked that nobody defend her and I don't believe they've created a new issue since that happened a couple years ago.
And she called everyone who was defending her "comicsgate fucks" and told them to stop defending her. She’s got a nice art style, shame she was hell-bent on social media suicide.
The biggest problem plaguing western comics is the lack of marketing. It's completely baffles me that these companies aren't doing more to make people aware that their product exists.
Well unless your with Disney or Warner bros
Where would they market to? TV commercials? Billboards? Sending writers on late night TV? Our community is so small they won't advertise there...best they can hope nowadays is a full page in Previews, a UA-cam person endorses it to get slabbed the minute you buy it and a poster for the LCS.
To me availability and marketing are different as a kid I had more access to buy comics than I do as an adult. Every gas station or grocery store had them, now it's a specialty store that doesn't exist in most towns or online to buy unseen (unread).
Nah. It's...most of the writer and artist are just killing time, until either one of the big 2 see their work then put them on a book with a steady weekly check that is much higher from what their sales and cut would be from image, or what they had to give image when their book is sold
Yes
Do you think this problem has more to do with the individual creators or Image as a publisher? Given the impression I get of Image where it’s all about creator freedom I’m inclined to think that the blame falls more on the creators’ shoulders if a book is majorly delayed or just disappears. But I’m clearly not an expert on this subject so I’d be interested in your take.
There's no new deal that Image can offer to the Saga creators because Image already offers the best possible deal to creators from the start. Image is not a publisher, it's a self-publishing platform more similar to Kickstarter or Amazon than to Marvel/DC. If the Saga duo stopped producing Saga isn't because of money reasons. It made them more money than they'll make at the majors in their whole life.
In this sense, gotta give a lot of credit to Kirkman for continuing creating series (and caring) when he could retire and live like a king for life.
If it wasn't for them comics in the modern sense would be struggling, big 2 are dumpster fires lately
@@richardblack3385 how so? By sales? I think comic sales grossed the most money ever just this last year.
I can speak from experience, Rat Queens suffered from my own fears. It was a series Roc and I thought would get five issues and then be canceled. So, we went in with ZERO expectation and went wild with every idea.
It got swept up into a movement and I bought into that hard, and by doing so the series lost its simplistic charm.
This was peak 2015 when we all believed social media was reality. Dark times, indeed.
Personal life stresses and troubles cannot be ignored when it comes to Image titles. It's a major factor, as everything is on the creative's shoulders.
Kurtis, I loved your Peter Panzerfaust book and am glad you got to wrap up the story. I highly recommend it to any of Perch's listeners.
@@johnnypalooka I tell a lot of people Panzerfaust is my personal favourite series I've ever written. Thanks so much, appreciate it!
When a book goes away, I have no idea when its going to come back... Media is so poor that unless I go out looking for something I don't know whats going on with it. I miss Wizard. lol.
I'm glad someone finally brought up Babs Tarr's name, because that's a fascinating case. She's a Twitch streamer now and an Instagramer (nearly 200k followers!) Her Patreon has over 1100 patrons! She's effectively left comics and brought her audience with her. How long can she sustain that audience on enamel pin sales and naughty commissions? Only time will tell...
it can last pretty damn long if she is good at it.
Trust me their is a huge audience for pin up art. That will pay top dollar for that sort of stuff, she be fine.
Oh, and she also had an art show at Gallery Nucleus this month. (They do lots of animator and comic creator art shows.). All the pieces sold out for a pretty good chunk of change. www.gallerynucleus.com/events/854. The more I look into the Babs Tarr Business Model, the more I'm actually impressed. She has a fervent tribe, and doesn't need comics anymore.
@@PipelineComics the model works even better with actual comics thrown into the mix. speaking from experience. but yeah there are way better options available nowadays than just the oldschool work for hire models
if i divide the pagecount of sunstone so far i'm somewhere at about 50 comic issues so far :P so that's kinda long running. not bad for a dumbass who stumbled upon a writing career when i burned out on art XD
Not bad at all sir!
Just wanted say hello and that I love your work!
This behavior is why I've become very picky on what comics I start reading. Why should I get invested in a comic for it to vanish into limbo or "hiatus"? In some cases, like the comic Rocketgirl I get that the creators stepped away to take a paying gig at Marvel work on Devil Dinosaur and Moongirl, but since they abandoned things a few issues into the second arc I dropped the comic and never returned.
Ditto 👍
"Pulled off the mask and.... oh my God, I thought you were a boy!" --> Are we talking Batgirl or Taskmaster in Black Widow? :)
The androgynous glamour Batgirl villian.
MCU taskmaster is a red room project. There are probably half a dozen candidates for that call sign.
@@suranae I’m sure the commenter knew that. The smile is a clue, Sherlock.
I love Image. All of the Spawn books. Saga, Deadly Class, Descender/Ascender, Black Science, Gideon Falls, The Weatherman.... I think Image is great for adult American comics. So for people that are sick of the big 2 and their activism and don't want to go full on Manga, then Image is a perfect place to go.
It's also a good place to go for people sick and tired of super heroes. Again.... more adult.
Saga news came last month, Vaughn is currently working on it now.
I agree entirely. I have no interest in superheroes or the dense universes the big two have created so I’d much rather read something like Lazarus.
I used to love superhero comics, but so many of the books they're putting out our mediocre at best and are dragged on for too long in the arcs. Maybe i just want a 2 or 3 issue story max.
Image money must not be much if they can't seem to keep anyone. They kept Kirkman by making him a partner, but you can't do that with everyone. Hype and praise doesn't necessarily translate to sales
And if you have to divide sales between too many people they don't add up to much either.
Creator-owned means the creator's responsible for it. A lot of them aren't ready for that.
This just makes me depressed.
Y’all keep mentioning more and more titles that I really like, that were my favorite at the time. But that they just floundered to cancellation or failing sales :( .
Birthright somehow miraculously plodded along to a 50-issue completion, but I know sales are crap. And I still read Die. But everything else that fell apart, it’s a DAMN SHAME
Image is great. And its great that creators have so much ownership and control. But there is a flip side to that. Without the oversight structure above them that the companies like Marvel and DC have, its much easier for a book to disappear. Some creators (even if only on some of their books) need the help of deadlines or editorial guidance.
Excluding comics like Saga, I'm sure low sales is the the thing killing the vast majority of these comics. You brought up Witches starting out at over 60k in sales, but what did its last issue sell? I bet it wasn't 60k.
The main problem Image has is that it is selling stuff mostly on the direct market. The direct market wasn't made to sell comics. It was made to sell Marvel and DC superhero comics. Outside of some notable exceptions, nothing is really going to thrive in the direct market if it isn't from the big 2. Image needs to try and expand its business model to reach out to new markets. It is criminal that Image lacks any kind of online subscription service. They need to figure out how to share these profits with creators and make something like Marvel unlimited or Viz's app.
The great tragedy of the American comic book industry is that it has everything it needs to compete with manga and Scholastic. Marvel has the corporate clout and support, DC has (or at least had) the editorial structure and Image has the content. The problem is that even if they were to combine into one Megazord like super company, none of them have the business sense to just copy what manga is doing.
This is exactly the issue. Many Image comics surpass average or above average Manga but the mainstream who would read them. Don’t know they exist. Personally I think they should keep making Invincible esque shows on Amazon Prime and then make themselves Comixology exclusives that would be most similar though not as good as VIZ app
@@jamesfinch14 I agree. Comixology would be better than the current nothing.
Image can not remotely compete with Manga. Manga is internationally huge. 50 mil in sales on one vol of one manga in a week alone says so.
@@AdrianT-jw2sz that says nothing about story quality. Tension, suspense, character development etc. That was my point, not sales
@@AdrianT-jw2sz They wouldn't be able to compete with manga sales in Japan. But could they be competitive with manga sales in the USA? Yes. Look at the success of Invincible and the Walking Dead after they were adapted. Invincible sold over 100,000 copies of its trades after just one season of a streaming show on Amazon. Brand synergy and easy to understand numbering for trades matter.
Image doesn't have a problem. It's all about creator owned books. The creators do what they want when they want. Total freedom for the creators, as long as your book sells well enough to manage to make some $. Image isn't a typical publisher. They don't own anything and it's all on the creators.
Joe's question, cutting to the chase! Love it!
Is it just me or does Joe sound more like Perch than Perch does in this video. Maybe the audio is off or I'm loosing my mind, but it was almost like listening to Perch have a conversation with Perch at a slightly different pitch.
Sometimes this show reminds me of when we were kids and we would make fake radio shows on tape.
Where's my Witchblade?!?! Bring it back!
I remember when they first started out. They were a solid number three behind only DC and Marvel. They seem to be slipping more than thriving as of late. They did revolutionize action figures. That seems to be their most enduring contribution. Walking Dead is successful, but it's shit to my eyes.
I love Geiger, Fire power, Nocterra and Radiant black atm! Image is on fire.
All excellent. But it sucks that Geiger seems to be ending soon. Hopefully Nocterra keeps going for a long time.
Image is the best, or was the best, now of most their books suck
@@dexterroberts631 they have a few good books left, but they often either go on hiatus or get canceled altogether…
Geiger Is taking a break while John’s does a couple other series in the universe it’s becoming more of a black hammer style thing (a few books in a universe telling one story)
Speaking of Image comics that actually finished, Williamson and Bressan just wrapped up Birthright at issue 50. Took about 6 1/2 years, so there were delays, but still a major accomplishment. I've only read around 10+ issues (I discovered it late) but from what I've seen it's a well-written, beautiful fantasy book that I intend to keep reading.
Skybound is legitimately the best comic company in the American market. Most of their series have like 30 + plus issues .
The publisher of Image, Eric Stephenson, has 2 books that just petered out. Nowhere Men and They're Not Like us were great reads. I know there was an artist issue with NM but still, if the publisher of the company can't manage to complete a project it's no surprise that these independent contractors can't either.
TNLU pissed me off - there was only one issue left!
Image has an ... image problem. When they started off, they pitched themselves as being more extreme and cool than the Big 2 would let them. In short, Marvel on testosterone. Somewhere along the way, they shifted over to cerebral literature that only appeals to lit majors in liberal arts colleges. Despite Image's origins, I regularly hear pundits refer to Image as the place to go when you don't want superhero comics. At some point, Image needs to decide what kind of publisher it wants to be and go all in with a consistent publishing schedule on titles that hit.
@Avingay Anfordstay The individual lines are creator owned and creator controlled. Image is not really the owner of that stuff unlike Marvel/DC. So the whole „shared universe“ was just a gimmick in the beginning, but they actually don’t really share a universe. Or when they share a universe, then it’s in the same way as Marvel and DC share a universe: there are stories that combine Marvel and DC, but for 99.9% of the stories they don’t share a universe.
@Avingay Anfordstay I read early Image and yes, they did a lot of crossover promotions. They obviously tried to be the new Marvel. BUT they are not structured like Marvel/DC, which means there is no real free flow of characters (i.e. villains or team based heroes) that can show up at unexpected places and take roots. I.e. a Spawn villain can not become the long term nemesis of the Witchblade as these are two separated ownerships. This will always limit their type of shared universe as it will never be truly shared, just a lot of crossovers.
EXACTLYYYY !!! Image went woke, then went broke
Image in the early 90s was more about art than writing.if they hadn't diversified their publishing line they'd have been left behind as an embarrassingly extreme relic of the 90s. Image today has more quality stories as well as art. The creators don't have to bow down to editorial mandates, or have to change a story direction because it might sell more.image was the bad boy rebel of the 90s, but now it's grown up and evolved.
@@mttylerdurden9 yes, now the characters argue over which bathroom is best suited for them. This is great storytelling. And i find it comical people that still believe in evolution despite all the evidence of devolution. But hey, you do you
Ultramega gonna get big hopefully.
Oh yeah I'm totally into that one, I got Skybound X#1 just for the short Ultramega piece. It's coming back in 2022, hopefully early 2022
@@JC-sm2yr My heart skipped a beat when I read it was coming back in 2022. I hope it doesn't lose momentum.
This is my issue with a lot of indies. I want to know it will continue. Saga was devastating as I started and finished it in 2019 and no end to the hiatus in sight
Good news! It's coming back in January.
You mean artificial heat for first issues of Image comics always ends up being nothing?
Color me shocked!
And stunned!
;)
Now ya'll got me depressed. Just got into Image stuff and all three of my favorite books are by them, Nocterra, Radiant Black and Department of Truth.
I actually have a stack of all the issues of Nocterra so far I'm going to be diving into later today! And I really like Department of Truth.
@@jcoral1 Awesome. Hope you enjoy them as much as I have.
There were some good Invincible universe spinoffs I enjoyed that I wish had kept going.
Love your banter. Very entertaining.
Getting a like for no other reason than Joe's question at 0:50
I'm not familiar with all the modern IMAGE comics because I'm from Mexico. Editorial VID brought Spawn, Gen13, Danger Girl, Darkness and Witchblade in spanish in my teenage years. The only modern title I've picked up is SAGA because of it's critical acclaim thinking it was auto-conclusive (bought the three HC volumes). Hope they conclude the series soon.
I hear you Perch. Late books are a pain for retailers, I hate that PA got behind, and I'm good with deadlines generally but Covid and life brought challenges this past year and that affected work. Time is a big part of what makes some of the books you guys mentioned so great. Not an excuse really, but a reason, sometimes fate intervenes and fucks shit up.
Don’t worry about it Steve. Take your time. Take care of yourself. Your books rock! I’m loving Post Americana.
I completely agree with Joe's take on Crossover #7. I loved the first 6 issues and just could not force myself to buy #7 after finding out what it was about and flipping through the pages. I hope #8 can pull me back in. Or even comes out:)
Cerebus is still monthly.
Is it just me or does Joe sound like Jeff Goldblum?
Kinda, yeah, but I always thought Joe sounded more like Adam Carolla. Not really a fan of Adam but Joe is great! 😊
god damn it, we need more uhhhs now XD
According to Image, the only book they currently publish is MOM
Fast forward 9 months and there are still unsold copies at my LCS.
This is interesting because i feel the average person is like spawn is doing great they just started spawn universe and image is doing great because of it but there are so many other amazing book series that they just stop for no reason. I respect ending a story once the story is done and writer did what the writer wanted besides keeping the story going on forever but some of these end out of no where or for no reason and it makes no sense sometimes. That being said i am loving the new spawn stuff lol
Fiona Staples art and I'm there. Brian K Vaughn writing and I'm there. Both together, and the hiatus melts away.
But I get your frustration with Image. I've started too many books with them and had the comic fade away, fizzle out unfinished. It's like buying a novel with the last chapters ripped out. That can't be easy material to promote and sell.
I've noticed that some Image series will disappear when the writer gets work at the Big 2.
Nick Spencer has done this twice now. I enjoyed Morning Glories and The Fix, but I have no hope of ever seeing them continue.
I’ll say it again, you should interview Scott Snyder!! And he can probably shed some light on these questions :)
I see a lot of holes in your logic on this one, guys. I don't see how Image's business model shows any motivation for creators to continue their independent creator owned work to take bigger paychecks from the big two. As far as Saga goes. There is no way on Earth you can convince me that when it returns it won't be the highest selling release that month. There will be ten variants to ensure that. That's the new way of hitting those big numbers. Then the title will settle right back in evening out at similar numbers to where it left off or maybe higher. I'm betting that a lot of new readers have bought trade paperbacks since the hiatus started and they'll be just as in as the original reading audience.
Is this mostly an Image and creator-owned book publisher problem, or do the other indies fail this, as well?
I’m trying to think and, for example, it looks like Boom doesn’t even attempt any long-running series, big creator or not, unless it’s a licensed property or Giant Days or Irredeemable.
Almost every Alterna title is a mini series.
I hope once and Future keeps going!
funny thing is Tynion's the only one to break from that mode of thinking. He's had a 35# issue series on Boom and he currently has SITKC on there.
@@bosniankumquat1835 And good on him. The Woods was great, and I hope SiKtC has the same level of overarching experience in the end.
I enjoyed this. Gonna reread Pitt and Gen-13 later
Im still buying Ascender & LOW, but only as the trades hit preorder. Aside from that catching up on Oblivion Song & waiting on something …anything from Dead Eyes (Dead Rabbits fmrly)
A lot of the books from Image just don’t appeal to me or disappear (VS). Some of the titles from creators with Big 2 ties just look like half baked Netflix pitches, all hoping for that sweet TWD magical deal.
I love the art on Oblivion Song. De Felicci is amazing.
Isola was a hot book that kind of disappeared too. The art was phenomenal. I just thought the book meandered too much in the writing and didnt move enough. Its pretty much disappeared since early last year. Im sure the art took a long time too. Its one of those books that should have maybe been trade only. Its also reason you need writing that doesnt meander.
It feels like Image and/or the various creators get bored if a title gets beyond a certain length and thus titles just languish. The graphic novels seem to be bizarrely published, too. So, it isn’t just me. Ascender, Undiscovered Country, Saga, Copperhead, Rat Queens, and Monstress are the ones that just drop off. “The Walking Dead” was one where the change in the graphic novels to omnibus formats was more than a bit funky for readers, too.
Some of these titles just finished. Southern Bastards and Wytches, for example, ended in a good way (even if they could’ve carried on), so why complain about them not continuing? Not everything has to be an ongoing series, and I’d much rather have a good, concise story.
I so desperately want more southern bastard !! I send a message to Jason latour every 6 month saying I hope he’s doing well and asking him to do more bastards !
Latour is done for in the industry.
@@brotherjustincrowe I hope that’s not true
He did it to himself.
add Clone to the mix. after 20/21 issues they went on hiatus and never came back. ive reached out the the writers asking if they plan to revisit the title and its all crickets. i assume as others have suggested it was all to get option attention.
I haven’t heard of most these titles. I guess the advertisement isn’t that big.
image doesn't really advertise... they put stuff in previews magazine and the rest is up to the creators.
I suspect a few of the newer titles are comics purly to option the idea to get a TV series/movie made and after a few issues and no interest the series just stops.
im sure Vaughan and Staples are making plenty of money outside of the comic medium.
My idea of Image is the 90s.
Scott Snyder likely stopped because at heart he's a DC Comics Batman writer and really doesn't have too much of his own story to tell. So, yeah, he probably got bored because he's probably not too invested in his own stuff.
Isn't that the appeal of creating for Image? If you start to get burned out and have another idea you can jump to another title? Savage Dragon isn't exactly Spider Man.
I still get Savage Dragon and Spawn monthly. To me they are the Batman/Superman of Image. They aren't for everyone tho, which is a problem.
Perch! Joe! What happened to Fraction/Ba/Moon’s CASANOVA?? Occasionally on Image and sometimes on Icon. Image was the last publisher. Another one with no news, right? I loved Casanova!! Is it too Problematic after 2016?? 🤔🤔🤷♂️🤷♂️
Wasn’t *Bitch* *Planet* an absolutely horrendous comic? Did that actually sell well?
It was great, sold well, was a critical darling, and won a lot of major awards.
Brian K Vaughan is too busy writing for Hollywood to do comics. I bet it pays a lot more too.
I've never been much of an image guy prefer older indie books and publishers like fantograohics.
I wish I knew what happened to Hell Yeah. 6 issues came out, the trade collected the first 5, and up to issue 9 had been solicited. It jus dissapeared though.
I emailed the writer. I didn't ask why he ended it but he said even though it's possible to return, there are no plans at this time.
Image should have a Shonen Jump style magazine selling all of their old and/or completed series in grocery stores, gas stations, etc. Would be super cheap to do and would bring tons of attention to their products in stores.
My knowledge of Image is pretty much limited to the founding characters (Spawn, original Youngblood, Savage Dragon etc.), so I'm spending the entire video trying to look up who the flying lady in pink with the white cape on the top left is... got nothing.
She is a character from Ultra by the Luna brothers. This image is the wraparound cover to Invincible #60 a part of the Invincible War in which evil Invincibles from other dimensions are brought in and all the image universe has to fight them off.
@@Madbmberwhatbmbsatmidnight Thanks!
the other issue is...there are even less good new image comics coming out than like 4-5 years ago. i remember 5 years ago, just a ton of great books to be excited about...now, I barely even get 1 a month
I think most of these title delays is because the creators just haven’t gotten around to working on them. Some of these creators are balancing TV & film careers and some of them are balancing mainstream work and some of them launched a book with the intention of rolling it into a Netflix series and when the book reaches a certain threshold they move on. These publishing pauses have very little to do with Image management. The lack of marketing certainly does but Eric Stephenson is not pumping the brakes on these titles. The creative teams are just not getting around to working on the books.
If your book doesnt get released in a certain time frame, you wont get paid in one of the 6 month windows that Image does. Books cant be made if folks arent getting paid quickly enough. Books are made by the creators own budget or sweat till Image pays them their royalties. Also in Trades, I hear that image gets 30% and they expect the cheap 9.95 or whatever the cheap rate is now. So after wholesale/distributor discount, Image is the only one making money since they arent paying the creator costs. They are taking a good chunk of the profits in that regard.
I also heard if a trade paperback loses money the creator pays for it.
Vaughn must be making money elsewhere. Tv? But imagine if he’s burnt out on Saga and can’t return to writing for years? I’d imagine it’s an intense series for him and Staples. I’ll be back when they return because it was excellent!
Sounds to me like it is diminishing returns hitting creative teams so hard they are losing money from new issues...
Thing is, if you buy one series from a company, invest in it, and it gets cut short, you might try again. If you buy two that stop, maaaaybe you'll try again if you're an optimist. But if you get burned three times and you probably won't pick up anything from that company ever again.
I might be completely wrong but maybe focusing more on the digital side than print might be the smart move for Image. You look at Viz with the two bucks a month. Do something similar? I have laid this out before but if they are getting such low returns on print, might be time to switch it up?
10:38 A shame Babs pre-emptively cancelled herself after drawing a self portrait of herself with a tan
Re: Following creative teams...
I've said other places, I may like creators (Snyder/Capullo, Murphy) on Batman books, but just couldn't get into their Image books (Undiscovered Country & Tokyo Ghost), just not my cuppa.
I am still waiting for the rest of Nick Spencer's BEDLAM.
Southern Bastards was recently published in Mexico in four collected HC editions. Nices stuff.
Motor Crush was a book I bought like, for 3.99 the 1st collected edition on instocktrades, and was bummed to know it was cancelled. Not my favourite book, but nice stuff for vcheap price😅
Rocket Girl by Amy Reeder also jusrt got to vol 2 and then it was gone.
Saludos desde Panamá.
thanks for this
It feels like creators are making movie and TV treatments to sell.
Yes, image is a portfolio publisher, or has turned into one
Hope all these hiatuses & abandoned comics don't give Joe any ideas for his Becstar book.
Bryan Hill had a good Cyberforce comic a couple years ago I wish he would finish it.
War Heroes. A limited series that had no conclusion. In the beginning Image tried to be more extreme in action and art. Now, they are aimless and just trying to keep from drowning.
I read and have every issue of Skullkickers. It’s unfortunate how the series ended.
Copperhead fits the bill
Hmmm... I do not feel the name Indi is right... I still feel underground is better.
first guess would be its a company run by artists/writers rather than businessmen
😂🤣😂. My take on it.... creators are parking IPs with a finished arc. Thier all looking for that streaming cash. Why do another arc, you've created the IP, you've wrote a successful arc. Park it and see if you can create another one that could be picked up.
Were you thinking of Danger Club?
Yes!
interesting...for me Image (including TopCow etc etc.) is of course Spawn. And Midnight Nation. And The Darkness. and Savage Dragon. And SAGA. And Lazarus. And Invincible. And Brit. and the walking dead. And WildCATS. And Happy. And Descender. And Ascender. And Rat Queens. And The Agency. And Revenge. And Millarworld. But true, the sudden stop of books is annoying at times. I have quite a few surprise Image cancelations wrecks in my comicus interruptus box. But, Image mostly not being the owner of the work I'm unsure how much leverage they have, and this is really a lack of knowledge how those contracts work. Which opens up the question: how do they work? does anybody happen to know and care to share?
WHY isn't John Byrne doing something with his NEXT MEN? Simply put, Image separates the men and women from the boys and girls! Image is a TRUE publisher who handle publishing and advertising but the rest is up to the creators and their staff! It's relatively easy to look like a genius when you work on a title like Superman, a book almost 100 years old, with a tremendous legacy! Creating your own world and characters is a LOT harder! Outside of comics, go to a used bookstore, look at the many books and titles and note how many of the writers whose names you recognize!
Whatever the reason/answer to the Image question is, is most likely also the answer to your video about the lasting power of indie comics.
Black Monday Murders……still waiting for Hickman to conclude it
Thomm Coker has had some health issues and is slowly working on the final arc.
Without spoilers, can anybody tell me whether or not Saga currently feels like a complete story? I’m considering buying the complete edition during ComiXology’s sale, but I hate stories that feel unfinished.
Go ahead and get into it, it's coming back in January.
who is the captain marvel jr looking character flying at the top of the image there?
Mighty man from the savage dragon comics
Speaking of non big two publishers is Avatar Press still putting out new comics? I loved Uber and I guess it's been on hiatus for like 2 years.
Morning Glories . . . and Warren Ellis . . .
Image is rightly refusing to work with Ellis until he’s begun to pay his dues for his past actions.
I hope firepower and killadelphia stay strong.
Sounds like imagine needs to actually step up and be a real publisher. Seems like they are just kind of hands off and leave it to the creators, instead of hiring a whole marketing department and leadership team to make sure these books are pushed and information is available about them.
I want more Copperhead and The Realm.
Shout out to Manifest Destiny.
Despite Spawn, Image really isn’t recognizable anymore.
Top Cow, which used to be a favorite imprint of mine, seems to be vapor at this point. Witchblade, Darkness is eh. Everything there has been defanged and lost its sex appeal. Which let’s be honest was their main stock and trade for many of their titles. They were doing some interesting things around with their shared world around 2010/11.
It would be nice if Image would pick Darker Image back up as an anthology series with different writer and artists as a pilot series.
Perch-San, it’s always a pleasure when you and Joe Goldblum press the flesh.