melee is like chess. i can crush people who have never touched it before, but i get destroyed by anyone who has dedicated any amount of time into it! 👍
As a new player been training alone in my room in a vacuum, save the rare time I play slippi unranked, I will say that watching your opponent was only finally doable for me once I got comfortable enough with movement to not be entirely afraid of edges and then a HUGE change came when I started playing dittos because the watching my opponent became a much deeper; watch them AND you can know all of their options for from their perspective because you COULD do the same options, thus making the training much more focused and my attention can be directed more toward ‘what is melee’ and identifying and reinforcing and observing habits etc. Tldr you gotta grind out movement alone in a cave for about a year before you can even start to look around and grasp wtf this chess lvl melee shit is about even sort of. Game has flipping depth. And I’m only a falcon main lawl
starcraft is like this too. the game is super unfun and confusing if you cant look at your opponent and UNDERSTAND the threat they present in a realistic manner. but to be able to do that and respond you need solid fundamentals in like 6 or 7 different other things
the way you talk about melee is one of the few things that make me wanna put more tougth into how i play instead of playing like a BBB that got memory wiped of all neutral knowledge
I'm really glad you brought up different styles of practice. I cannot sit on training mode and beat out the same situation over and over again on a bot, but I can do it against an opponent. It always felt like something I'm lacking, despite me constantly getting better- just bothered me that others can improve that way and I can't. It helps to know that's just a preference, not something I'm necessarily not grasping. Killer video dude.
Yeah back in the day people had strong opinions about it cus when the game first came out everyone was gradual and people didnt consider exclusively using c stick for aerials, they just did what they always did which was hit the buttosn
My coach always talked about this in wrestling. In wrestling, there are all different types of holds, combinations, and attacks that put you in a position where you score points. (Think of it like combos in Melee.) There are obviously simple/fundamental moves and complex/flashy moves (or combos). But at the highest level, BY FAR the most common moves that score points are always the most basic takedowns that little kids learn on their first day of practice. The flashy stuff is good to know, sure. But to really be better than someone, you gotta beat them with the simple stuff. And when you wrestle someone truly better than you, you feel that they are better not when they do something flashy and you don't react, but when it literally feels like you cannot do anything. They block every move you try at them and you cant even get close to the leg you want to attack. Its demoralizing. Much more so than getting 'caught off guard' by a flashy complex combination.
For me I’ve always had trouble practicing situations. Melee isn’t like chess in my mind because of the complexity of its mechanics. Say a Fox nairs at me from the corner. I can dash dance grab it. But if the Fox is good enough, he can time it in a specific way, drift in a specific way, to where my grab whiffs, even though it “should be” the same scenario. In reality, that situation is NOT actually the same situation. Fox 1 gets grabbed, Fox 2 gets a juicy nair combo from the same starting point. Zain can run up and straight up fsmash nick yingling’s shield and not get punished. If I did the same thing, yingling would shine me out of shield and kill me
Bruh the falco part is so relevant. Me and some people are coming into our local scene from slippi and there are a few netplay falcos that you can tell are just getting used to looking at their opponent. Hilariously, some of them are switching to foxes and their foxes equally dont look at stuff
Thanks for pointing out my problem in chess. I keep going for these crazy tactics in the mid game that don’t work and get punished for it. I need to learn boring chess before I can do flashy chess. (I should apply the same to melee).
you get to live by your rules and die by your rules, but... just be aware... that there's a pretty high likelihood that you will in fact die by them. if you can live by them, like borp and that falcon who doesnt edgehog, because you have the fundamentals to back your rules up, then that's great. most people would say "i'm not gonna chaingrab, i would rather die" and then they do in fact die lmao
For me its less about the winning and looking/being better then my opponent, then it is "Im going to play my way and the consequence of that is on me." Not everyones sole compulsion is victory or getting a W. Yeah its nice to win, yeah youre playing to win, but getting a win isnt your endgame i wouldnt think for most people. And even then there are those who have it as their endgame that wont compromise on other aspects. Me as a person, im not going to grind out "playing lame" or "camping the ledge" There is very little enjoyment to be had by me from playing that way and very little satisfaction from it. Theyre parts of the game where as a competitor you feel you should do it because you wanna win, but as a player? Why the hell would i want to do that.
I mean I get what you are saying. BUT in the situation in which you are competing and in a tournament setting, looking to improve, asking for advice, and playing with money and tournament placings, and rankings on the line (which I feel is the point Toph was making) Why wouldn't you play to win? For most that's what going to a tournament is all about. Which is also the Fun part too. If you want to play for fun that's all on you. That's what friendlies are for. I mean in the end people will do what they want and find joy in it whatever way possible. But I agree with Toph completely.
I don't really agree with your point about using strong simple play to prove you're better than someone. Playing flashy is just sooo fun, i enjoy myself so much more than playing optimal even if i lose for it.
You're missing his point. His point has nothing to do with how fun it is, if you enjoy it way more then go for it. His point is that trying extra hard to do flashy plays to prove that you're WAY better than someone, doesn't actually prove that you're better than someone.
The reason I play falco is because I find grab really boring. Chain grabs are the most boring thing in the entire game both as a spectator, a player executing it and a player on the receiving end of it and I don't have any interest in sitting around practising how to grab someone, up throw, pummels. I find grabbing boring in general, it breaks up the flow of the game like.. we were just playing this fast paced game and now one of us has to mash buttons to get out of this frozen animation where you punch ofr a while and then do a throw where the only recourse is to di and there's no sdi (apart from a couple of specific throws). I like falco because I don't have to worry about getting shield grabbed, I can just aerial shine. If they wait it out it then becomes the mixup and it becomes fun neutral. But I get absolutely no joy from grabbing someone. If I'm playing any other character because I rarely grab I have to just do crossups and spaced aerials on shield so they don't shield grab me, and that slows down the game and it becomes boring to me too. I play melee because it's fast and fun, I don't want to sit around walling a shield so I can actually experience some gameplay. I know this comment might sound totally stupid and ignorant but nothing around grabs is fun to me at all and I play melee to have fun, I'd honestly rather play ultimate than play a character who spends all their time chain grabbing.
melee is like chess. i can crush people who have never touched it before, but i get destroyed by anyone who has dedicated any amount of time into it! 👍
That’s basically anything lol
True
I dedicate time to it and you'd still probably destroy me
@@MrConnerCassel Couldn’t be further from the truth, sounds like someone isn’t good at anything haha.
As a new player been training alone in my room in a vacuum, save the rare time I play slippi unranked, I will say that watching your opponent was only finally doable for me once I got comfortable enough with movement to not be entirely afraid of edges and then a HUGE change came when I started playing dittos because the watching my opponent became a much deeper; watch them AND you can know all of their options for from their perspective because you COULD do the same options, thus making the training much more focused and my attention can be directed more toward ‘what is melee’ and identifying and reinforcing and observing habits etc.
Tldr you gotta grind out movement alone in a cave for about a year before you can even start to look around and grasp wtf this chess lvl melee shit is about even sort of. Game has flipping depth. And I’m only a falcon main lawl
starcraft is like this too. the game is super unfun and confusing if you cant look at your opponent and UNDERSTAND the threat they present in a realistic manner. but to be able to do that and respond you need solid fundamentals in like 6 or 7 different other things
the way you talk about melee is one of the few things that make me wanna put more tougth into how i play instead of playing like a BBB that got memory wiped of all neutral knowledge
I'm really glad you brought up different styles of practice. I cannot sit on training mode and beat out the same situation over and over again on a bot, but I can do it against an opponent. It always felt like something I'm lacking, despite me constantly getting better- just bothered me that others can improve that way and I can't. It helps to know that's just a preference, not something I'm necessarily not grasping. Killer video dude.
My buddy who first got me into melee had a rule that he wouldn't use the c stick. He said it was looked down upon and considered "noob shit"
Yeah back in the day people had strong opinions about it cus when the game first came out everyone was gradual and people didnt consider exclusively using c stick for aerials, they just did what they always did which was hit the buttosn
I think my brother used to say this as well. He would also complain if I did an edge guard. "You've got to let me back on"
Remember when westballz was flirting with becoming a melee god? Now he’s not even mentioned in a list of great falcos :(
My coach always talked about this in wrestling. In wrestling, there are all different types of holds, combinations, and attacks that put you in a position where you score points. (Think of it like combos in Melee.) There are obviously simple/fundamental moves and complex/flashy moves (or combos). But at the highest level, BY FAR the most common moves that score points are always the most basic takedowns that little kids learn on their first day of practice. The flashy stuff is good to know, sure. But to really be better than someone, you gotta beat them with the simple stuff.
And when you wrestle someone truly better than you, you feel that they are better not when they do something flashy and you don't react, but when it literally feels like you cannot do anything. They block every move you try at them and you cant even get close to the leg you want to attack. Its demoralizing. Much more so than getting 'caught off guard' by a flashy complex combination.
Hard agree 👍
Keep in mind that was Armada's brand new fox, too.
one of my fav vids youve put out for whatever reason, it just has everything
as a 1922 FIDE rated player and long time melee enthusiast I have wanted to talk so fucking much about how similar chess and melee are.
Yeah I started looking at my opponent and its crazy how much smoother and better I've been playing tysm
For me I’ve always had trouble practicing situations. Melee isn’t like chess in my mind because of the complexity of its mechanics.
Say a Fox nairs at me from the corner. I can dash dance grab it. But if the Fox is good enough, he can time it in a specific way, drift in a specific way, to where my grab whiffs, even though it “should be” the same scenario. In reality, that situation is NOT actually the same situation. Fox 1 gets grabbed, Fox 2 gets a juicy nair combo from the same starting point.
Zain can run up and straight up fsmash nick yingling’s shield and not get punished. If I did the same thing, yingling would shine me out of shield and kill me
Ty for the Upload.
It is cool to hear you talk about melee.
And what you say is accurate. like crazy accurate
if i ever break out as a top player im crediting this video for changing my mentality
Bruh the falco part is so relevant. Me and some people are coming into our local scene from slippi and there are a few netplay falcos that you can tell are just getting used to looking at their opponent. Hilariously, some of them are switching to foxes and their foxes equally dont look at stuff
Magnus Carmada Lindgren
I don't even play melee and I made the same noise toph did when looking at that zain clip
your videos are so high tier
Thanks for pointing out my problem in chess. I keep going for these crazy tactics in the mid game that don’t work and get punished for it. I need to learn boring chess before I can do flashy chess. (I should apply the same to melee).
you get to live by your rules and die by your rules, but... just be aware... that there's a pretty high likelihood that you will in fact die by them. if you can live by them, like borp and that falcon who doesnt edgehog, because you have the fundamentals to back your rules up, then that's great. most people would say "i'm not gonna chaingrab, i would rather die" and then they do in fact die lmao
Great video
Nice you know Frenzy on a first-name basis, I hope he calls you Kris.
oh shit i watched that video too and this made so much sense
if i dont be the badass though then how will i establish to myself that i can badass slam someone in tourney
Edits fire
Oops! All Falcos!
For me its less about the winning and looking/being better then my opponent, then it is
"Im going to play my way and the consequence of that is on me."
Not everyones sole compulsion is victory or getting a W.
Yeah its nice to win, yeah youre playing to win, but getting a win isnt your endgame i wouldnt think for most people.
And even then there are those who have it as their endgame that wont compromise on other aspects.
Me as a person, im not going to grind out "playing lame" or "camping the ledge"
There is very little enjoyment to be had by me from playing that way and very little satisfaction from it.
Theyre parts of the game where as a competitor you feel you should do it because you wanna win, but as a player? Why the hell would i want to do that.
I mean I get what you are saying.
BUT in the situation in which you are competing and in a tournament setting, looking to improve, asking for advice, and playing with money and tournament placings, and rankings on the line (which I feel is the point Toph was making) Why wouldn't you play to win? For most that's what going to a tournament is all about. Which is also the Fun part too.
If you want to play for fun that's all on you. That's what friendlies are for. I mean in the end people will do what they want and find joy in it whatever way possible.
But I agree with Toph completely.
I honestly think there are a lot of Falco’s also because of the 6 frame short hop
Frame 5
@@SRM13 maybe I am thinking of it wrong. What is fox’s than in your way of looking at it? 3?
@@guitarwithjamesoffical fox has 3 frames to do a short hop yes
Yo Golden Guardians #FreeMvC2
god I miss Armada's Fox
Hey Toph, I think I just played against you on netplay. I was the Link player JoeBro, haha ggs dude
They're both infinite games, simple as that.
Double upload?
0:33
nice video
the volume balance a bit odd tho
The video Toph was watching was quiet so I made it as loud as Toph's volume when he speaks
I don't really agree with your point about using strong simple play to prove you're better than someone. Playing flashy is just sooo fun, i enjoy myself so much more than playing optimal even if i lose for it.
You're missing his point. His point has nothing to do with how fun it is, if you enjoy it way more then go for it. His point is that trying extra hard to do flashy plays to prove that you're WAY better than someone, doesn't actually prove that you're better than someone.
Gotta practice your scales before you can shred
Bro how do you not just quit after getting bodied like bobby there, I know I would want to
Phrasing..
toph is pog
Respectfully disagree. But if you wanna show me what's up in correspondence hit me up on LiChess: SuperSmashBros
The reason I play falco is because I find grab really boring. Chain grabs are the most boring thing in the entire game both as a spectator, a player executing it and a player on the receiving end of it and I don't have any interest in sitting around practising how to grab someone, up throw, pummels.
I find grabbing boring in general, it breaks up the flow of the game like.. we were just playing this fast paced game and now one of us has to mash buttons to get out of this frozen animation where you punch ofr a while and then do a throw where the only recourse is to di and there's no sdi (apart from a couple of specific throws).
I like falco because I don't have to worry about getting shield grabbed, I can just aerial shine. If they wait it out it then becomes the mixup and it becomes fun neutral. But I get absolutely no joy from grabbing someone. If I'm playing any other character because I rarely grab I have to just do crossups and spaced aerials on shield so they don't shield grab me, and that slows down the game and it becomes boring to me too. I play melee because it's fast and fun, I don't want to sit around walling a shield so I can actually experience some gameplay. I know this comment might sound totally stupid and ignorant but nothing around grabs is fun to me at all and I play melee to have fun, I'd honestly rather play ultimate than play a character who spends all their time chain grabbing.
no one cares what you have to say about grabs tho, its in the game and its not going away
@@Fostrobot i care so you're wrong
how can anybody be allowed to be this based
@@Fostrobot when you see players calling a legit option "boring" chances are they aren't very good at playing around it
Tophs open support for multiple shitty people really speaks to his character
Like who?
@@themysticfedora yeah I also want to know wtf this guy is talking about lol
we are waiting for the answer