I can’t explain how interesting it is to hear someone who understands Melee explain the subtlety of specific situations. I could listen to hours of you breaking down specific kinds of counterplay in the melee meta game. That’s the kind of content that really helps new players learn how to think about melee
It's really enlightening and great content. The street fighter examples, even though I don't really know the game, were also helpful to understand what he was talking about.
Just some extra info for the uninitiated: Nuki is one of the five gods of Japanese fighting games, along with Daigo, Tokido, Haitani and Sako, he's a legend and very strong in every game he puts time into. Also wanted to boost the algorithm, good shit Toph!
@@ismaelelizondo9952 Mago's nickname is the 2D god but he wasn't one of the 5 gods they heralded. He's younger than the others, sort of like a Plup or Leffen compared to the 5 Melee gods. Mago fits in with the newer age gods along with Momochi, Kazunoko, Fuudo (I'm not sure about Fuudo because he's been around for a while too, is a Virtua Fighter champ). But for sure, Mago is a name we should all know!
Toph is really killing it with his UA-cam, it’s so incredible to see all of the content that he’s just pushing out for our enjoyment. We love you Toph, please keep doing what you’re doing!!! 🖤🤘🏻
I like that there's lots of counterplay even in disadvantage in Melee. Because think about it -- you are in a way always playing neutral. Even when you have your opponent on the ledge, each of you still have to be anticipating what each other is gonna do. That fluidity is part of what makes Melee so endlessly deep. 20 years in and people are still doing new stuff.
Plus, if you have more options for counterplay you have a better chance at staging a comeback and who doesn't love watching the reverse 3-0? It's just one of the things I love about melee.
As a new player who hated L-cancelling and used it as an excuse to not play melee for years, I now see it as like, going Kaioken. Your combos are faster, but it's not super easy to do (consistently at least) and it strains your body (or finger lol). Then adding wave dashing/landing to the mix is like going Super Saiyan, cuz now you're moving so fucking fast that it almost looks like you're teleporting. Looking at it that way makes you like it as a new player.
I've had this idea for making an "EX rock paper scissors " card game with life points and EX versions of each option that adds a fighting game-esque mind game layer
I honestly really love FG comparisons to Melee. I don't care much about "that" specific arguement, but FG fundamentals STILL apply in Melee. For real though, Melee and FGC are one of my favorite crossovers next to Marvel vs Capcom.
Melee and 3rd Strike are like manual transmission vehicles in America. Only a few people like the complexity, but those intricacies let them do really cool stuff (Wheelies, Drifing, etc.)
‘cursed sword’ addition was on point regarding weighing out the risk/reward of neutral ! The vanilla Rps anology always felt like a limited why to describe it. Also, although some think otherwise I def love the physicality layer of fighting games, since with experience you can deduce what a person will go for or not. And ofc there is always that pro gamer feeling of landing hard tech xd
I love how you are able to speak about a topic like this from both a traditional fighting game perspective, and melee perspective. Awesome talk. Also, FGC Translated is too strong.
I got into melee wayy before I started playing fgs and after playing ultimate recently I thought it had the same sort of mind games but with an insane level of execution on top. I was wrong as hell, this game is so deep.
The whole “mechanic knowledge” issue is a huge problem in fighting games even in 2021. I’ve met Smash players who played every game since N64 and they didn’t know how to b reverse or turnaround special.
It's not a problem, it's a feature. I'm assuming those players weren't competitive players. I think it's cool that it takes deeper knowledge and understanding to become better. Execution, mental game, and knowledge all impacting the outcome - a part of almost any great competitive game
@@GlobusTheGreat gating players from knowing how to play the game is awful. This happens in high level esports too, just look at the Olofboost. It’s very clear that beating someone with discord tech doesn’t make for a very enjoyable experience.
@@dylanh.3793 the biggest problem with most casual turned competitive games is that the tech isn't tutorialised in the game. getting fucked because you literally dont know what's happening and don't have an in game way to find out why fucking sucks and that's the one big thing that really sucks with melee it's a shame too because melee is an insanely cool game and i'd love for everyone to be able to give it a shot but having to go outside the game to get most of the information required for higher levels of play is really lame
you have to keep in mind that Sakurai and his team never wanted to make a highly competitive Smash game. Melee was definitely not intended to be played anywhere near the technical skill level that it currently is
i just started practicing 3s again like a week ago. love that game!! evo moment 37 is the reason i started playing fighting games and long story short how i ended up being a melee player
My friends don’t really wanna put a lot of effort into melee (learn l-cancels, wavedashing, etc) but I think they would really like the mixups and the mind games because that’s what where the fun comes from and why so many of us fall in love with melee.
That’s why a lot of my friends play rivals, every single move on that game is a mixup, but the movement is waaay easier. (I’m trying to learn melee but my hands are dumb lol)
This can be applied to teching on platforms, no tech slide off, no tech asdi//slide off move you get hit by, no tech amsa tech, tech slide off edge. And there’s just as much counter play whe you hit someone on a plat
Damn thanks for making a reaction to that video, ive seen it before but i didnt quite understand all of it, so im pretty sure you reacting to it will help me understand it way better. Good content Toph you have my subscription!!
I agree with the overall point, but I don't like ledgedashing in particular. It's too polar: You either SD, or you get a guaranteed return to neutral. On the other hand, L-canceling works really well, because the difference between hitting and missing is a few frames of advantage, and create interesting interactions like moving your shield to try to make the opponent miss their L-cancel.
lets go toph! this is quality content. really bridging the gap between smash and fighting games. I honestly think smash IS a straight-up fighting game and you talking about it like this really highlights that.
As someone who's played this game as well as melee and much harder multiplayer games like Armored Core. I can understand this concept. There are deeper levels of strategic and tactical game play a "meta" if you will to any competitive scenario. Esports and otherwise. And if you do not understand the foundation of that meta (brawl mechanics/meta knight) or the building blocks surrounding why the meta was created (20XX) you will always lose. I distinctly remember playing Armored Core and I used to always best my friends. And for the first time I played another person who didn't take a single hit and dodged every single one of my attacks. He taught me a simple mechanic in the game and it completely changed my perspective and playstyle
Dude, I really can't describe how much I like to listen to talks where people verbalize the magic of melee, and I think this is the best one I've heard so far. And I'm not a doc kid either, so you know I've already heard a bunch of stuff about this :P (even though doc kids themselves aren't to be called the new ones at all anymore at this point. At least first gen doc kids, they really doc teens)
Yo Toph your content has been so good these past months! Keep it up man :D You've visited the Japanese smash scene a few times right? Are there differences on how they view the game over there as far as you know? The FGC translated channel got me interested since we rarely see or hear about stuff like that from top players from Japan besides from aMSa. Thanks for the content!
after one month imo, melee is just like legacy or vintage mtg. permutations, flowcharts, predicts, plus hand eye coordination, and muscle control/endurance. It's a pretty solid game and I just learned that watching tourneys and non stop eggsercising with falcon. If you're playing this game after a month you either identified this complexity or you're not eggsercising daily lol.
also jazz, melee is mother fucking Jazz. learn ya 2-5-1s then learn to express. Some people just have ugly shit to express and do it while playing falco and dying to their own fast falling dumb ass.
another thing about sf3.3 is makoto when you carry her into the corner so you win the neutral and get stage contorl so you should be at an advantage but in reality if makoto as the wall too close to her back she can command grab into super into dizzy combo (on a lot of character) and you will take huge damage complement this with the fact that she have super quick dash and can command grab you after an hayate, but you can jump, but they can anti air, but they can parry etc etc....so she got good tools to land this throw so even if she is cornered she still is a big threat but you can avoid it if you watch out for the makoto's player pattern that's like a small piece of what third strike is
One obviously strong character which dominates the metagame (Chun-Li and Fox), unique mechanics that confuse outsides/new players, a dedicated fanbase... yep.
lmao l-canceling is beloved BECAUSE its a barrier to entry. "I learned this so you have to as well." It's part of what makes Melee close-knit, that even scrubs have to put in the hours to learn stuff like this
@@Tophbbq If you can't beat'em, join'em. Got me to click on the video and watch for a couple minutes anyways, so it kinda worked. And now I've engaged multiple times... FUCK.
L-Canceling is so interesting to me in how it's essentially Melee's Counterhit functionality from 2D fighters. If Fox L-Cancels early into his Nair against Falco, it's very easy to land the L-Cancel. However if Falco manages to hit Fox with a knockdown during this part of the exchange, now Fox is locked out of teching and Falco can nail a nasty combo back. L-Canceling is my favorite part of Melee and I wish other platform fighters would bring that kind of depth back.
@@jacksonh6804 As much as I hate to learn that my favorite mechanic is not real, I appreciate you letting me know. It was a commonly shared belief in my area.
@@AmysWhisper hey man been there! Sorry it was a favorite of yours.. but there’s a lot of other lockout windows out there! Plenty of fish in the sea. Like a wave dash does tech lock but the one that impacts me the most is meteor cancel lockout. If you try to jump out too soon you screw yourself for like 8 frames or some bs, which is why people sometimes miss meteor cancels at high percent. I play falconn/Gannon so being trapped in shield and trying to wavedash out of shield makes amsah teching all that much more fun...
Yeah this is the shit I love about fighting games, specially games and melee and third strike, I feel like there's an infinity of things I can implement into my game, everytime I look back at my matches I notice things I could have done in different scenarios, situations in which I could have pushed my advantage further if I took a bigger risk, times I reacted too slowly and did a bad panic option when I could have stayed safe if I had played smarter etc. And then there's an infinity of options and counterplays you could come up with for every option, making it so that you'll always be rewarded for knowing more about the game. That huge spiral of mindgames that makes it a competition of who can out-adapt who is what keeps me from ever getting bored of these 20 year old games
What you said about assessing your skill level for an execution moment - I feel it applies to shooters like overwatch a lot. Some characters have tons of high risk - high reward plays that depend on the player's aim skill in order to be a reasonable option at all.
Really cool hearing you explain this, it's crazy how clearly you manage to express ideas I find it pretty sad people could not like situation depth though well I'm not sure whether they don't like depth, or volatility I can understand not wanting to earn 3 +- 7 from a won interaction instead of 3 +- 1 because it makes them getting the initial hit feel less important (if you think like this, play Peach, not spacies) but I can't understand not wanting depth if you're going to invest multiples thousand hours in a game, isn't it hard for a game with no depth to be enjoyable ? I mean... RPS is unironically boring =/ Also I think what truly makes it interesting, perhaps more than the micro-situation complexity, is the disagreement between players regarding what the mixup *is* like, if we both have 20 options, I imagine a 20x20 table with how good the resulting situations are in each case (basically resulting probability of winning the game according to us, if I attempt the option in a given row and they attempt the option in a given column) for RPS it'd just be a 3x3 table, 0/-1/1; 1/0/-1; -1/1/0 well there's a distribution among these 20 options I can choose so I don't have to care about the other guy's option like, if I want to have the same game win expectancy regardless of what they take in that scenario, it's 20 equations, 20 unknown you've made your choice, and I'm rolling a dice in my head (assuming I can do that) that tells me what option to do, with the probabilities as I've obtained them from solving that system and even the most complex game eventually becomes boring if we agree on the value of everything and just end up picking our options randomly in proportion of how often they should be picked But that's where all the fun comes from: we don't agree on the values in the cells heck we're not even sure the opponent knows of every column because that would mean that we agree on how bad it is for you to be offstage, to be in knockdown, to be in the air, that we agree on what's the probability of you messing up given techniques, and that would also mean that we're thinking perfectly rationally in trying to win, when we certainly don't - we will value not looking like a dummy that gets hit twice by the same thing even though it's still an option in the mixup, or will really care about getting to show off one given thing we've practiced, some will overvalue cool options to be cool (also being perceived as cool can be valuable), some will instead undervalue them to be able to look back at their lame play and appreciate it because they perceive it as a commitment to a win-focused mindset And from the disagreement between our table and their table, we get the option we should do - assuming you're correct, any difference with your beliefs is a underefficiency for you to win on. And be it locally to a game or in general as a player, we update our tables based on new experiences If a game was merely complicated it'd be a matter of time before we figure it out, but complexity combined with being human is how we get to different conclusions, and disagreement dictates what we should do in a match, and that's how a game is interesting And so far for this purpose, no game is more interesting than Melee with its crazy engine depth, technical requirements and analog controls, at least to me =D
Hey if you guys wanna play third strike online but don’t own a pc for fightcade Street fighter 30th anniversary is on all consoles and the 3S community is strong in ps4 and Xbox, I haven’t played switch tho
I don’t play melee; if playing against a character doesn’t have a multi hit to break a crouch cancel, why wouldn’t you just always crouch to defend rather than ever having to shield
first of all, crouch canceling only works up to a certain percent (aka how much damage you’ve taken) for each move in the game (and it varies). so after a certain point, you HAVE to block to defend from a hit. but people shield instead of crouch canceling because not every move can be crouch canceled. it has to do with the knockback of the move as well as the angle it sends at, but every time you jump in on a crouching opponent, it’s a mixup of which move you use. for example, for fox, using drill is really solid since if your opponent CCs (crouch cancels) it, it breaks the cc and you can shine after, and shine is the move with his highest combo potential. you always are looking for ways to combo into shine and ways to combo from it once you hit it. BUT, instead of drilling, he can approach by running up and downsmashing. you can’t cc downsmash, so if it hits you, it’s good for fox. but if you shield it, since dsmash has high ending lag, the shielding opponent can punish it. so it’s just another option that adds some more mixups and potential punishes at lower percents.
Great question. First of all, there's always grab. But second of all, a lot of the other characters can just space a move to deal damage to you while still staying safe. Let's take Marth -- he can space a tipper forward air, one of his most common moves, to deal a bunch of damage to you that, if you shielded, you would've blocked.
Hey is your name a reference to the character from Avatar the last airbender? Or is it a nickname for Topher Grace, the actor that played Eric on that 70's show? 🤔
agreed. same as tekken (3D scuffle wavedasher), all tag fighters (or tag battle games as I call them), street fighters 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 (more like street beat em' up amirite), and all other platform "fighters" (more like "2D combat simulators with the addition of meaningful topography" lol). tired of these party games pretending to be FGC
12:00
"how many layers of mind games are you on?"
"like,, maybe 5, or 6 right now. my dude"
"you are like a little baby, watch this"
*walk up dsmash*
This but unironically, honestly
@@Tophbbq This is like the yomi level discussions you and scar had in the past
"You can't outhink someone that doesn't think."
I can’t explain how interesting it is to hear someone who understands Melee explain the subtlety of specific situations. I could listen to hours of you breaking down specific kinds of counterplay in the melee meta game. That’s the kind of content that really helps new players learn how to think about melee
It's really enlightening and great content. The street fighter examples, even though I don't really know the game, were also helpful to understand what he was talking about.
the cursed sword RPS is such a perfect analogy for the insanity of melee microsituations
Just some extra info for the uninitiated: Nuki is one of the five gods of Japanese fighting games, along with Daigo, Tokido, Haitani and Sako, he's a legend and very strong in every game he puts time into.
Also wanted to boost the algorithm, good shit Toph!
Don’t forget Mago as well, dude was a monster in multiple games
@@ismaelelizondo9952 Mago's nickname is the 2D god but he wasn't one of the 5 gods they heralded.
He's younger than the others, sort of like a Plup or Leffen compared to the 5 Melee gods. Mago fits in with the newer age gods along with Momochi, Kazunoko, Fuudo (I'm not sure about Fuudo because he's been around for a while too, is a Virtua Fighter champ).
But for sure, Mago is a name we should all know!
Oh shit, can't forget Nemo! (and Dogura, and GO1, there are so many strong players)
Toph is really killing it with his UA-cam, it’s so incredible to see all of the content that he’s just pushing out for our enjoyment. We love you Toph, please keep doing what you’re doing!!! 🖤🤘🏻
👺
3S and Melee in the same video? Now you're speaking my language
I like that there's lots of counterplay even in disadvantage in Melee. Because think about it -- you are in a way always playing neutral. Even when you have your opponent on the ledge, each of you still have to be anticipating what each other is gonna do. That fluidity is part of what makes Melee so endlessly deep. 20 years in and people are still doing new stuff.
Plus, if you have more options for counterplay you have a better chance at staging a comeback and who doesn't love watching the reverse 3-0? It's just one of the things I love about melee.
As a new player who hated L-cancelling and used it as an excuse to not play melee for years, I now see it as like, going Kaioken. Your combos are faster, but it's not super easy to do (consistently at least) and it strains your body (or finger lol). Then adding wave dashing/landing to the mix is like going Super Saiyan, cuz now you're moving so fucking fast that it almost looks like you're teleporting. Looking at it that way makes you like it as a new player.
And the heart attack is the inevitable crippling arthritic shock.
I've had this idea for making an "EX rock paper scissors " card game with life points and EX versions of each option that adds a fighting game-esque mind game layer
could you elaborate? sounds interesting
fuckin LOVE these kinds of videos. melee theory, depth and psychology is so interesting. keep em coming
More of these types of talks it’s fascinating
I honestly really love FG comparisons to Melee. I don't care much about "that" specific arguement, but FG fundamentals STILL apply in Melee. For real though, Melee and FGC are one of my favorite crossovers next to Marvel vs Capcom.
We Are Siblings.
Melee and 3rd Strike are like manual transmission vehicles in America. Only a few people like the complexity, but those intricacies let them do really cool stuff (Wheelies, Drifing, etc.)
‘cursed sword’ addition was on point regarding weighing out the risk/reward of neutral ! The vanilla Rps anology always felt like a limited why to describe it.
Also, although some think otherwise I def love the physicality layer of fighting games, since with experience you can deduce what a person will go for or not. And ofc there is always that pro gamer feeling of landing hard tech xd
I love how you are able to speak about a topic like this from both a traditional fighting game perspective, and melee perspective. Awesome talk. Also, FGC Translated is too strong.
I got into melee wayy before I started playing fgs and after playing ultimate recently I thought it had the same sort of mind games but with an insane level of execution on top. I was wrong as hell, this game is so deep.
The whole “mechanic knowledge” issue is a huge problem in fighting games even in 2021. I’ve met Smash players who played every game since N64 and they didn’t know how to b reverse or turnaround special.
It's not a problem, it's a feature. I'm assuming those players weren't competitive players. I think it's cool that it takes deeper knowledge and understanding to become better. Execution, mental game, and knowledge all impacting the outcome - a part of almost any great competitive game
@@GlobusTheGreat gating players from knowing how to play the game is awful. This happens in high level esports too, just look at the Olofboost. It’s very clear that beating someone with discord tech doesn’t make for a very enjoyable experience.
@@dylanh.3793 the biggest problem with most casual turned competitive games is that the tech isn't tutorialised in the game. getting fucked because you literally dont know what's happening and don't have an in game way to find out why fucking sucks and that's the one big thing that really sucks with melee
it's a shame too because melee is an insanely cool game and i'd love for everyone to be able to give it a shot but having to go outside the game to get most of the information required for higher levels of play is really lame
you have to keep in mind that Sakurai and his team never wanted to make a highly competitive Smash game. Melee was definitely not intended to be played anywhere near the technical skill level that it currently is
damn you guys would hate tekken
sick content toph :)
i just started practicing 3s again like a week ago. love that game!! evo moment 37 is the reason i started playing fighting games and long story short how i ended up being a melee player
My friends don’t really wanna put a lot of effort into melee (learn l-cancels, wavedashing, etc) but I think they would really like the mixups and the mind games because that’s what where the fun comes from and why so many of us fall in love with melee.
Honestly I’ve found that people have really enjoyed volleyball as a gateway to the rest of the game
That’s why a lot of my friends play rivals, every single move on that game is a mixup, but the movement is waaay easier. (I’m trying to learn melee but my hands are dumb lol)
Toph your content has been so great! Thanks for putting out videos!
when you get so deep into a setup that you ruin someone with the "no mixup, mixup"
This can be applied to teching on platforms, no tech slide off, no tech asdi//slide off move you get hit by, no tech amsa tech, tech slide off edge. And there’s just as much counter play whe you hit someone on a plat
Toph is on so many levels of mind games that he’s playing siivagunner music in his videos lol
i thought this was fgctranslated when i clicked daigo face
Wow, i can’t believe toph got THE fighting game god on a video with him, toph is the KONTENT KING
This is the reason I love melee so much as a spectator. The option select and mix ups are insane at high level.
Damn thanks for making a reaction to that video, ive seen it before but i didnt quite understand all of it, so im pretty sure you reacting to it will help me understand it way better. Good content Toph you have my subscription!!
Melee is nuts. Why we all love it. Cause we understand things that others don’t and you can pick apart every single interaction
3rd strike, melee, and toph are all sick
I agree with the overall point, but I don't like ledgedashing in particular. It's too polar: You either SD, or you get a guaranteed return to neutral. On the other hand, L-canceling works really well, because the difference between hitting and missing is a few frames of advantage, and create interesting interactions like moving your shield to try to make the opponent miss their L-cancel.
Cursed Sword analogy is big brain as hell.
More content like this would be amazing.
Yoooo let's go daigo. I love sf x ssbm crossovers
lets go toph! this is quality content. really bridging the gap between smash and fighting games. I honestly think smash IS a straight-up fighting game and you talking about it like this really highlights that.
As someone who's played this game as well as melee and much harder multiplayer games like Armored Core. I can understand this concept.
There are deeper levels of strategic and tactical game play a "meta" if you will to any competitive scenario. Esports and otherwise.
And if you do not understand the foundation of that meta (brawl mechanics/meta knight) or the building blocks surrounding why the meta was created (20XX) you will always lose.
I distinctly remember playing Armored Core and I used to always best my friends. And for the first time I played another person who didn't take a single hit and dodged every single one of my attacks. He taught me a simple mechanic in the game and it completely changed my perspective and playstyle
Commenting for the algorithm
Good shit, Toph!
Loved the video Toph, keep it up. Almost lost me a bit with some of the street fighter jargon but I'm glad I stuck around.
Evil Toph be like: Daigo doesn’t get Melee. You win.
Yoo toph can u make a series of videos of the top players and what makes them great , maybe with weaknesses ? Would love too see stuff like that ✌
Melee top players , maybe talk with them about it and what they think and stuff , could be sick content 😁
I'm really interested in doing this :3 ok!
@@Tophbbq Hell Yeah , lets go bro 💪
Is that fly me to the moon as elevator music in the background
I was rewatching Eva on Netflix with a buddy who hasn't seen it for the first time and I was so sad they'd removed it
It starts off as the ocean kingdom song from mario odyssey and then gets schmixed into fly me to the moon
Yep, Frank Sinatra.
Dude, I really can't describe how much I like to listen to talks where people verbalize the magic of melee, and I think this is the best one I've heard so far. And I'm not a doc kid either, so you know I've already heard a bunch of stuff about this :P (even though doc kids themselves aren't to be called the new ones at all anymore at this point. At least first gen doc kids, they really doc teens)
Doc kid?
Yo Toph your content has been so good these past months! Keep it up man :D
You've visited the Japanese smash scene a few times right? Are there differences on how they view the game over there as far as you know? The FGC translated channel got me interested since we rarely see or hear about stuff like that from top players from Japan besides from aMSa.
Thanks for the content!
after one month imo, melee is just like legacy or vintage mtg. permutations, flowcharts, predicts, plus hand eye coordination, and muscle control/endurance. It's a pretty solid game and I just learned that watching tourneys and non stop eggsercising with falcon. If you're playing this game after a month you either identified this complexity or you're not eggsercising daily lol.
also jazz, melee is mother fucking Jazz.
learn ya 2-5-1s then learn to express. Some people just have ugly shit to express and do it while playing falco and dying to their own fast falling dumb ass.
Leaving comment for the algorithm.
Sick content, Toph!
another thing about sf3.3 is makoto when you carry her into the corner so you win the neutral and get stage contorl so you should be at an advantage but in reality if makoto as the wall too close to her back she can command grab into super into dizzy combo (on a lot of character) and you will take huge damage complement this with the fact that she have super quick dash and can command grab you after an hayate, but you can jump, but they can anti air, but they can parry etc etc....so she got good tools to land this throw so even if she is cornered she still is a big threat but you can avoid it if you watch out for the makoto's player pattern that's like a small piece of what third strike is
and easy 100 pourcent combo on akuma and remy with that command grab combo, Great vidéo btw
Random gg for your new team Toph
Man almost all of Rumble Fighter is like this. I love it, good video.
One obviously strong character which dominates the metagame (Chun-Li and Fox), unique mechanics that confuse outsides/new players, a dedicated fanbase... yep.
Really great vid Toph!
Beautifully put toph
lmao l-canceling is beloved BECAUSE its a barrier to entry. "I learned this so you have to as well." It's part of what makes Melee close-knit, that even scrubs have to put in the hours to learn stuff like this
Daigo: yeah I don’t like this game
Also Daigo: created the most legendary moment in fgc history
My favorite video of yours so far!
love it when FGC and Melee community can come together. i feel like both scenes have grown a lot from the old days of bashing each other.
Love this video, excellent analysis!
This is 10/10 content, thank you TOPH!
Great video Toph!
4:34 This happened to me before I knew the wall tech OS in SSBU.
Know that I know, I can call out and punish the Up-B.
Love the fly me to the moon cover in the beginning
Commenting for algorithmic reasons. Thanks Toph!
I really enjoy this type of content
Toph do you play 3rd strike? That’s awesome that’s my (other) favorite fighting game, definitely bette at it than melee haha
Toph! Who do you play in 3rd strike? Also great reference material
checked into the toph video, I can confirm this man has yet to put out a bad piece of content. W
Love the vid and hyped for that teaching vid
I love that nge outro song
Oh, so you're just assuming "Daigo gets melee." Okay.
For real, smash isn't even a fighting game
My editor thought of this excellent misleading clickbait and I had to give him props
@@Tophbbq If you can't beat'em, join'em. Got me to click on the video and watch for a couple minutes anyways, so it kinda worked. And now I've engaged multiple times...
FUCK.
@@Tophbbq sf player. i dont play melee and i got baited, but the analogy made sense here
L-Canceling is so interesting to me in how it's essentially Melee's Counterhit functionality from 2D fighters. If Fox L-Cancels early into his Nair against Falco, it's very easy to land the L-Cancel. However if Falco manages to hit Fox with a knockdown during this part of the exchange, now Fox is locked out of teching and Falco can nail a nasty combo back. L-Canceling is my favorite part of Melee and I wish other platform fighters would bring that kind of depth back.
Practice L canceling with only soft presses on the triggers. This avoids tech lockout. Took me a month to adjust muscle memory once I learned that.
@@jacksonh6804 As much as I hate to learn that my favorite mechanic is not real, I appreciate you letting me know. It was a commonly shared belief in my area.
@@AmysWhisper hey man been there! Sorry it was a favorite of yours.. but there’s a lot of other lockout windows out there! Plenty of fish in the sea. Like a wave dash does tech lock but the one that impacts me the most is meteor cancel lockout. If you try to jump out too soon you screw yourself for like 8 frames or some bs, which is why people sometimes miss meteor cancels at high percent. I play falconn/Gannon so being trapped in shield and trying to wavedash out of shield makes amsah teching all that much more fun...
Lord Diego Umsuarez.
Very interesting points Toph, still sad you haven't mastered Earth Bending though..
Great frickin vidoe, dude.
Yeah this is the shit I love about fighting games, specially games and melee and third strike, I feel like there's an infinity of things I can implement into my game, everytime I look back at my matches I notice things I could have done in different scenarios, situations in which I could have pushed my advantage further if I took a bigger risk, times I reacted too slowly and did a bad panic option when I could have stayed safe if I had played smarter etc. And then there's an infinity of options and counterplays you could come up with for every option, making it so that you'll always be rewarded for knowing more about the game. That huge spiral of mindgames that makes it a competition of who can out-adapt who is what keeps me from ever getting bored of these 20 year old games
MELEE IS HYPEEEEE
best video on your channnel so far, by far!
What you said about assessing your skill level for an execution moment - I feel it applies to shooters like overwatch a lot. Some characters have tons of high risk - high reward plays that depend on the player's aim skill in order to be a reasonable option at all.
While this video is dope, the title and thumbnail are hella clickbait.
LOL yeah my editor thought of this one and I was like "yeah fuck it"
I will make sure we don't do this too often hahaha
was the siiva rip intentional at the beginning
Gotta love a good option select
Melee is fucking sick
god third strike rules
Sick video
Really cool hearing you explain this, it's crazy how clearly you manage to express ideas
I find it pretty sad people could not like situation depth though
well I'm not sure whether they don't like depth, or volatility
I can understand not wanting to earn 3 +- 7 from a won interaction instead of 3 +- 1 because it makes them getting the initial hit feel less important (if you think like this, play Peach, not spacies)
but I can't understand not wanting depth if you're going to invest multiples thousand hours in a game, isn't it hard for a game with no depth to be enjoyable ? I mean... RPS is unironically boring =/
Also I think what truly makes it interesting, perhaps more than the micro-situation complexity, is the disagreement between players regarding what the mixup *is*
like, if we both have 20 options, I imagine a 20x20 table with how good the resulting situations are in each case (basically resulting probability of winning the game according to us, if I attempt the option in a given row and they attempt the option in a given column)
for RPS it'd just be a 3x3 table, 0/-1/1; 1/0/-1; -1/1/0
well there's a distribution among these 20 options I can choose so I don't have to care about the other guy's option
like, if I want to have the same game win expectancy regardless of what they take in that scenario, it's 20 equations, 20 unknown
you've made your choice, and I'm rolling a dice in my head (assuming I can do that) that tells me what option to do, with the probabilities as I've obtained them from solving that system
and even the most complex game eventually becomes boring if we agree on the value of everything and just end up picking our options randomly in proportion of how often they should be picked
But that's where all the fun comes from: we don't agree on the values in the cells
heck we're not even sure the opponent knows of every column
because that would mean that we agree on how bad it is for you to be offstage, to be in knockdown, to be in the air, that we agree on what's the probability of you messing up given techniques, and that would also mean that we're thinking perfectly rationally in trying to win, when we certainly don't - we will value not looking like a dummy that gets hit twice by the same thing even though it's still an option in the mixup, or will really care about getting to show off one given thing we've practiced, some will overvalue cool options to be cool (also being perceived as cool can be valuable), some will instead undervalue them to be able to look back at their lame play and appreciate it because they perceive it as a commitment to a win-focused mindset
And from the disagreement between our table and their table, we get the option we should do - assuming you're correct, any difference with your beliefs is a underefficiency for you to win on. And be it locally to a game or in general as a player, we update our tables based on new experiences
If a game was merely complicated it'd be a matter of time before we figure it out, but complexity combined with being human is how we get to different conclusions, and disagreement dictates what we should do in a match, and that's how a game is interesting
And so far for this purpose, no game is more interesting than Melee with its crazy engine depth, technical requirements and analog controls, at least to me =D
Melee and 3rd strike are the greatest video games of all time.
Fgc translated is my savior
Hey if you guys wanna play third strike online but don’t own a pc for fightcade Street fighter 30th anniversary is on all consoles and the 3S community is strong in ps4 and Xbox, I haven’t played switch tho
That intro song got me good
Way to break things down toph
Popping off
I'm usually fine with clickbait, but this one's pretty misleading. Not a huge fan. Good video though outside of that
hate the game not the player
Which extension for youtube loop?
I don’t play melee; if playing against a character doesn’t have a multi hit to break a crouch cancel, why wouldn’t you just always crouch to defend rather than ever having to shield
first of all, crouch canceling only works up to a certain percent (aka how much damage you’ve taken) for each move in the game (and it varies). so after a certain point, you HAVE to block to defend from a hit.
but people shield instead of crouch canceling because not every move can be crouch canceled. it has to do with the knockback of the move as well as the angle it sends at, but every time you jump in on a crouching opponent, it’s a mixup of which move you use. for example, for fox, using drill is really solid since if your opponent CCs (crouch cancels) it, it breaks the cc and you can shine after, and shine is the move with his highest combo potential. you always are looking for ways to combo into shine and ways to combo from it once you hit it. BUT, instead of drilling, he can approach by running up and downsmashing. you can’t cc downsmash, so if it hits you, it’s good for fox. but if you shield it, since dsmash has high ending lag, the shielding opponent can punish it. so it’s just another option that adds some more mixups and potential punishes at lower percents.
Great question. First of all, there's always grab. But second of all, a lot of the other characters can just space a move to deal damage to you while still staying safe. Let's take Marth -- he can space a tipper forward air, one of his most common moves, to deal a bunch of damage to you that, if you shielded, you would've blocked.
Good job Chris
Algorythm booster pack
Hey is your name a reference to the character from Avatar the last airbender? Or is it a nickname for Topher Grace, the actor that played Eric on that 70's show? 🤔
Just a nickname of Christopher.
@@dhaxiskhadhammer damn I really overthought that lol.
Great title
Damn, the okami ost remix deep cut
Melee is a fighting game and a speed run all in one
It's not a fighting game and will never be.. period
agreed. same as tekken (3D scuffle wavedasher), all tag fighters (or tag battle games as I call them), street fighters 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 (more like street beat em' up amirite), and all other platform "fighters" (more like "2D combat simulators with the addition of meaningful topography" lol). tired of these party games pretending to be FGC
the block-jump OS seems similar to invincible ledge dashing
i shouldve watched the video longer before commenting this
this is CONTENT
POGGIES I'm in the video! Hi youtube!