Albert Einstein once said something like "brilliant spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" keep up the great work and educational content Buddy❤
Haha... yeah. People get too attached to their ideas. If you challenge their idea, they take it personally as tho you are saying something about them as a person... Nope... just experimenting and showing my findings.
Many ideas and beliefs are based upon ignorance of which many cherish dearly. People become unhinged by things that challenge their beliefs even if it is factual. It's called human nature. The pioneers of truth often face harsh opposition until the rest of the crowds catch on. @loweredexpectations4927
Excellent presentation, you are correct about the fuel pump, it only pumps fuel, not pressure. Only pressure will exist if downstream pump line is restricted. Means no restriction no pressure....I'm a Hydraulic and pump technician. Kudos....
The tinkering you’re doing is really interesting. There are two sizes of gravity fed drip sets, 15 gtts and 60 gtts. That looks like a 15 (15 drops per mL) which is used for higher flow rates and would be important for people to know. 60’s are often used for medication administration in the field where more fine tuning is needed, usually piggybacked on a larger 1000 cc saline bag. We use these drip set for all sorts of off the menu applications including flushing eyes, etc. It made me chuckle to see you use it for this! Awesome vid.
Haha... thanks for the comment. I got a few of these form my girlfriend who works as a vet tech at an animal clinic. I didn't know about the two drip volumes. I know they usually use these with a pump and not to actually set the flow, but as a way to tell at a glance if things are about right. Or at least that's my inderstanding.
@@loweredexpectations4927 Maybe you’re done with this subject in your vids but if you were curious and wanted to fine tune the flow rate you could run the 15gtts. in tandem with a 60 gtts.. Get the 15 to about where you want it and then use the 60 to make smaller adjustments. You make a good point about the drip set running out in a power failure. There are all sorts of bad things that can happen if you don’t keep a close eye on them, especially if you’re infusing into a human. That’s why pumps are preferred nowadays. I also thought a fuel shut off solenoid might work to prevent that. Again, really fun vid, my worlds collided in the most unlikely of ways from watching it:-) Subscribed and liked, best of luck to you.
@@Splash0921 Totally not something that you expect to see, he, haha. I'm glad you were amused. I'm sure I could play with these to get an ideal flow rate / make it more adjustable, but I think a needle valve is likely more practical, if I choose to do this again... Still using the dripper to indicate flow, but not the thing to restrict flow. I have some ideas... but as always, so many ideas, so little time and money, haha.
Not totally open, has front deck and short wind deflector/shield. Thinking an 8KW version w/ducting a like car. Heater outlet adapter to 4ea 2" hoses 2X for feet & 2x aimed chest height when seated. 8KW= 27,000 BTUH, even assuming a net of 20,000 BTUH that is equal to four of the (unsafe camp fuel powered) Coleman catalytic radiant heaters. The boat will have 6-8" of coaming so limited direct wind when seated. I've decided to start with a single 8KW heater with removable portable remote fuel tank. Anything will feel good on a freezing 20F/-7C morning. We have fishing as low as -10F/-23C but that was hopefully a onetime exception. Breaking ice in the dark in a small boat is indeed scary.
In almost all cases, the 5 and 8 kw units are in fact actually 5 kw units.... (4.3kw based on fuel consumption tests I have done) This is the case with all brands. I am getting a heater this week from MaxSpeedgrods that is called an 8kw, and it appears as though it may be a 7kw... I will be testing to see. You can get the heater end caps so that it has 4 small outlets, rather than the one large one. That is probably a good option. If you are hoping to have some warm air blow on you, then this may be satisfactory, but the fact that there is no recirculation of the air, the heater is fighting a losing battle (always pulling in cool air and heating it) You will get quite warm air coming out of the heater till around -20 any colder than that and the outlet temp will really start to decrease. Obviously better than whatever the ambient temp is.... If your expectations are set too high, you will be disappointed. -23C is no joke ! ...I just released a video of myself jet skiing at -10C, haha. I also have a silly video of myself in a inflatable suit, out in -18C with a 2kw heater.
Regarding those who comment on things they have not actually tried and tested for themselves - You cannot, never, not ever fix stupid. Thanks for giving the rest of us something we might try and test.
I don't necessarily thing that it is stupid, but some people are that, haha. I think it's easy to start imagining things happening in ways that they don't, in reality ... and once you imagine one part wrong, the rest goes off the rails.
As somebody who fixes these on a daily basis I can tell you that the soft fuel line causes more problems than anything else. It kinks, splits and creates air locks. I have to change fuel lines on people at least once a week and it always fixes the problems. They green stuff might work sometimes but in general it is the wrong stuff to use and will cause more problems than it solves.
I don't doubt that you see a lot of fuel line issues, especially if you deal with RV and vehicle installs. I have been a mechanic for 30+ years and see lots of fuel lines cracking, turning to goo or just getting so hard they are impossible to deal with. I didn't once dispute that cheap fuel line was as good or better, I think I even recommended good fuel line. I know for a fact that not all soft fuel line is created equally, as I have a 1989 Yamaha watercraft and the fuel line is like new... I believe neoprene based ? What I am arguing / showing in this video is that the pulse of the pump or pressure of the pump has no effect on the operation of the heater whatsoever... it is there to deliver the fuel, and doesn't have to do it in a forceful way to be effective. Rigid line is great for some applications, but it's not better because it allows a stronger pulse to be delivered to the heater. When buying soft line, one problem is knowing what you are actually getting... You almost have to go to a trusted local supplier, or you could end up with crap.
@@loweredexpectations4927 Yeah I agree with that the atomiser doesn't need it to be squirted on to it dripping is fine. Yeah I think the stuff they send is for water pumps in fish tanks or is very similar to say the least.
Well What to say!!! Entertaining video BUT NOTHING NEW Google Dickson or refleks diesel drip feed heater Burning oil is NOTHING new One thing I would like to say Your recommendations of safe CO levels is WAY WAY out Please don't be advising people on this unless you have the correct information Indoor co levels should be no more than 9ppm for 8 hours Max of 35 ppm for no more than a hour and 100 max for 15 minutes
@@faffybubs9099 I have ordered 30 metres of fuel line to test... I plan on purposely introducing massie air pockets... However , what you are missing is that I didn't dispute anything about air. I didn't claim that rigid line isn't better, or that small diameter line isn't better. This wasn't an attack on rigid line.... What I am disputing is simple. Rigid line isn't better because it leads to a stronger pulse being delivered to the burn chamber. Softer line isn't bad because it is too soft, causing a weak pulse to be delivered to the burn chamber. I can absolutely see how air (or vapours from cavitation) in the line can become an issue. If you have your pump close to the tank, and a giant bubble between the heater and pump, this bubble is a spring. The fuel delivery will likely be somewhat unpredictable (not enough at times, and too much at others - like after the heater has powered off) I also suspect that this is much more of a problem in anything that moves around and in an RV or vehicle install with a LONG lines. Most people harping about this in blog posts, forums and on video comments, have an all-in-one heater with 2 feet of line, or 3 feet of line and the heater in their greenhouse.
It's not as horrible as some make it out to be... it certainly doesn't matter if it flexes and absorbs fuel pump pulses... Of course, quality fuel line is never a bad idea...
Interestingly when I installed one of these in a van, the booklet said replace filter AND fuel lines every six months?? I know the green fuel line isn't supposed to be great - but six months? Surely it will last longer than that
@@richardd8352 That's just typical corporation lawyers figuring out how to avoid any sort of warranty or insurance claim... because they know this isn't going to happen. So when you come back with any issue, they can say "did you change your fuel line?"
@@loweredexpectations4927 ah yes, makes sense. I'd still be curious to know how long on average that fuel line lasts. I suppose it varies. I can imagine in time it becomes brittle. No way six months though.
@@richardd8352 It tends to get brittle after a few years, but if it is stationary it's not at all an issue. If it is in a vehicle and supported properly, it is likely not an issue. If it is in something that is bouncing around (like a vehicle) and you have long runs of it that are not supported, it may crank at the locations where it is supported, or leak around fittings.
Good information, This shows if the fuel pump fails you can always hook up in emergencies. The difference between using a drip feed for patients and as an oil dripper is that not many hospitals go down to zero degrees and then warm up during the day. Whatever they drip into you is more or less at a very constant temperature so the viscosity of the liquid will remain the same and same drip rate. A light bulb could replace the pump as a resistor.
Thanks for the comment ! Yes, hospitals, and vet clinics, where I got my IV, all use pumps to control and monitor the flow, as well. The adjuster is there for emergency situations... Nurses and vet techs are trained to count out drips if necessary, but it never really gets used. You are the second or third person to suggest the light bulb... I was curious if this would work, so I gave it a try. As I suspected, the ECU is too smart. It recognizes the bulb as a dead short and won't work. You would need to check the resistance of the pump and then match that resistance for it to work 👍 maybe a few bulbs or a LED.
I agree with you a little . If you have more line it's easyer to push the fuel and air threw the smaller line , Than the bigger line. I have been witnes to this my self
Absolutely . A smaller diameter line, with the same fuel volume, means higher velocity fuel (or air) and the smaller cross section means air is less likely to get trapped. With very long runs of fuel line, I can see how trapped air could become a problem, I have purchased 30 meters of fuel line and will be testing this. However, the argument is that the rigid line is batter because it is rigid. The claim is that the soft fuel line absorbs power / pressure from the pump and causes running issues. Rigid line can be better in many ways, but not for this reason.
I love it when you can prove everyone wrong! Great job! For years now everyone has been going purely on myth. lol Glad I saw this video. I was just about to get into the van life setup and you just gave me more knowledge than 99% of the videos I've watched. Honestly this videos deserves the few millions those other misleading info videos have. This needs to be corrected.
Thanks for the kind comment ! People sometimes like to create stories / problems that are easy to fix. Everyone needs a feeling of accomplishment. To be clear, I'm not saying that rigid line isn't a good idea.... Especially on a vehicle or RV .... The stuff that comes with these heaters is typically pretty low quality and will get brittle over time. "Soft line won't effect the operation of the heater because it is soft." is the overall message here, haha. It's always a good idea to use quality line.
Well that was an eye opener. I fell for the idea too, without ever seriously thinking about the "pressure", but now you point it out, it's self evident you are right. Received wisdom is always worth questioning.
Thanks for the comment. Sorry for the delay. It is surprising how emotional some people get about this topic. I do think that rigid fuel line has its place, and I never said it was bad. All I'm pointing out in this video is that the pump is there to provide the correct dose of fuel and that soft line will not affect the performance.
What we're saying is the solenoid pump is ideal to start with. I thought the main issue with the crappy fuel line was that it perishes after a couple of years and you end up with diesel everywhere.
Thanks for the comment. I don't think there is any evidence supporting the idea the pump is ideal for starting. My heater started a bunch of times with 3 -4 drops of fuel. A decent fuel line is much better, and rigid fuel line is good in many applications. I'm just saying that it's not better because the rigidity makes the pressure higher.
Interesting. I'm glad you did this. There's a lot of people saying things about diesel heaters that just aren't true and their problems more the result of incorrect adjustment and installation. I wonder if you could use a carb jet to do the metering, with the right size jet you might get the correct number of drips.
Yes... issues with these heaters is almost always due to some installation error limiting exhaust or inlet flow. They are very sensitive to that. You could find the right size jet, however, some adjustability would be nice. You could use the jet for max flow that was something reasonable and then have the adjuster to lower it from there. A few have suggested a screw needle valve. I think that would probably work really well.
I just thought the kinda solid hose was to reduce bubble building up. I love the green (orange) hose because it is easier, quicker and less joints to install. I still don't understand why there is no better pump yet invented to replace those annoying pumps. Your test was confirming some of my thoughts about the subject, thank you for this.
The rigid line has it's place, but it's not a "must have" like many claim. There are a few companies that make a siglent pump called a Peristaltic pump... David McLuckie tests one... I believe.
I got impatient with the pump priming after I took the heater apart to clean it. I primed the line manually with a plastic mustard bottle, just letting the fuel flow into the line with no pressure. After a bit, when the line itself should have been filled, it still kept taking more. Then I had an oh-oh moment and stopped. I started it up anyway with some apprehension. Shut it down right away because it was smoking pretty good. So I knew it was just a straight shot into the burner. I was thinking my pump was shot because of the extremely tiny amount of fuel coming out. Thanks for your videos, they clear up a lot of things about these heaters. No there isn't any pressure in the line. In fact I'm surprised that the pump keeps up with the burn. Great videos.
LOL.... Awesome story, thanks for sharing. Even tho the pump states the volume on the side of it, it was interesting for me to see that it took 3 pulses of the pump to make one drip of diesel... goes to show how little they really flow. These heaters are engineered incredibly well and it's shocking they work as well as they do, especially for the price !
Well said Joel I've been having a Facebook argument this week about the heaters running on a wicking method and not under pressure and this puts it all to bed for me..🙂
Having nylon solid line creates a presurized line which might have an increase on combustion. If you run a direct 2 mm solid fuel line to the combustion chamber It won't drip. Might have a very small effect on efficiency and carbon build up.
Thanks for the comment. This is what some people claim, but you can't have pressure if there isn't any restriction. This fuel line is like a garden hose. If you hold your thumb over the end, there is pressure and it sprays. However, where the fuel flows into the chamber, there is no thumb / no restriction, so no pressure. The fuel just drools in on to the wick. I recently released a video called "Diesel Heaters - Orientation Deep Dive - Heater Mounting Explained" Where I used an inspection camera and a cut open chamber to show this in some detail.
@@loweredexpectations4927 I wouldn't say it has no pressure, I would say very little. I totally agree with you. I don't think it really matters. Both fuel lines should work sufficient.
@@wyattbristol738 👍 I suppose when you say "pressure" it depends on what part of the system you are talking about, and what the layout of your system is. There is pressure at the pump because the resistance of the fuel. This resistance is caused by the mass of the fuel, as well as the resistance to flow from friction and gravity (depending if your pump is lower than the heater). When I say there is no pressure, I am referring to where the fuel enters the chamber, into the glow plug mesh. In a fuel injection system you may have 60 psi in the line and at the injector, because of the restriction caused by the injector. In these heaters, the metal fuel line is a smaller diameter than the part it exits into. You can call this a "drop in pressure" from almost nothing to even closer to nothing. The burn starts in the glow plug area, but minutes after you start your heater, the plug shuts off, and all of the burn occurs in the primary burn area (no burning happens in the glow plug area). Fuel makes 2 90º turns before drooling onto the wick material, where it ignites. I would choose to use some hard line in some installs and soft in others. Just because hard line sometimes hales more sense. The point I was trying to make is that, the force of the fuel being injected into the heater has no effect on heater performance or service intervals.
Good video demonstration....... Fuel line preference doesn't matter as long as it's routed correctly with reasonable room to flex when pump pulses....... This is a heater...... Not an engine folks.
Yeah... not an engine. As long as the fuel gets there, it doesn't matter how much pressure it is under. These are basically fancy candles that have fuel delivered to the wick.
What you have said makes sense. As far as fuel pressurisation. But in my opinion, you should still change your line if you want. if you want it to last for a long period of time. as soft pipe may deteriorate within about 12 to 18 months. I would also guess UV light may have. some Affect. on Deterioration of pipes if open to light in some cases.
Absolutely ... There are many reasons to change to change to a rigid line, or even just a good quality line. I was simply disputing this one statement. Rigid line, in many cases, especially for longer runs, makes more sense.
This is true... If you depended 100% of the height, you would have to constantly raise the fuel tank to keep the fuel flowing. That gives me an insane idea for mounting the tank on a balance beam and using the decreasing mass of fuel to raise the tank and control the fuel flow....🤣 what a nightmare that would be.
This is a GREAT shop heater option. But you need to put a temperature sensor-relay with a normally closed fluid selonoid in line with the fuel to shut the fuel off if the temps dropped below a set point. You would need a bypass to start it or a lighter to heat the probe but it would detect a flame out or dead cooling fan and kill the diesel
I was having the same thought about a normally-closed solenoid as a safety mechanism. Could add a push button override for starting like when lighting a pilot light on gas appliances until the flame sensor is hot enough.
Yeah... If you were doing this as your permanent setup, you would certainly want to make sure that you had some safeties in place. It would also be advisable to have a overheat protection where it closed the valve if it gets too hot. Even if it switches back on after it cools. My old heater cuts the fuel flow in half when it reaches 210 and goes back to normal when it reaches 208. If you wanted to be really clever, you could have a set of valves and inline restrictors that allow a preset fuel flow. For start up you could have one that operates between room temp and 60, then two on until 210 and one closes after 210 ... It could be so much fun, haha. To stop the first one (room temp to 60C) from coming on in the event of a flame out it could either be on one minute timer, or ... I forget what it's called ... The opposite of a latching relay, maybe. It stays energized till you cut power, but requires power and ground to re energize, so you'd have to switch it on for start up.
Don't listen to others. If they make references to other youtubers, that means they them self's have no clear understanding... Well done and very good practical example of a theoretical "discussion".
That is MORE than good ! Well done. Little question: Changing the diameter of the fuelline but keeping the same pump, will that influence the fuel consumption ? Thank you Bernie @@loweredexpectations4927
Exactly. Simply put your fuel tank above your heater for a Net Positive Suction Head (NPSH) and you won't smoke on startup or have fuel delivery issues.
You are probably rewalking the path of the original inventor of the diesel heater. I salute you for doing all these experiments. I guess at the end of your experiments, you will probably arrive at the same conclusion that a pump is needed 😅 and somehow pump and fan speeds are optimized by the ECU to give the cleanest burn. The pump also pumps up the fuel if you happen to install the fuel tank below/beside the heater. It also stops the fuel from leaking out after the heater stops working, as you described.
Haha... I love experimenting 🤪 I would never dispute that a pump is ... needed, or at least in all practical terms, is needed. This test was simply to prove that fuel delivery does not require any forceful injection or pulses. As long as the fuel makes it's way to the heater, in the correct quantity, it's going to work just fine. Many have made the argument (including one very popular heater tuber) that soft line expands during pump pulses. This expansion weakens the injection of the fuel and causes problems. I'm not sure if these claims were made out of boredom, or just because the guy is a good storyteller, but this myth has spread all over the internet, haha. What I'm doing in this video is pure silly... other than in an emergency situation where your pump died and you were going to freeze to death, this has no practical application.... but it's still fun.
Yes I heard about this debate. If your argument is about whether or not a pump is needed in an emergency situation, you're right. Your experiment proves so. You can drip feed it without a pump. On the other hand, if your argument is about whether or not the original flexible large bore fuel pipe supplied with the heater expends (and therefore its consequences) when the pump ticks, that's a totally separate argument, because as much as you'd like to disagree, that famous/stupid 😂 ytber is correct, I'm afraid. Have a look at John McK 47's Part 11 - Fuel Delivery video. @@loweredexpectations4927
You could also wire up a relay that opens the drip line when the unit turns on and 12v is applied to it, that way when it powers off the fuel line shuts
Maybe a solenoid valve connected to the pump lines with a capacitor? It would keep the line open when the pump would be running and make some resistance to keep the error codes away. Or if that doesn't work (not enough pixies per pump cycle to keep the solenoid open until next pump cycle) then you could just load capacitor or trigger timing circuit with it and use separate mosfet to open the solenoid based on that. Anyhow you can both mimic the pump to prevent error code and only give diesel when pump would be running.
That would be WAY better. Thanks. I have since installed a needle type valve and use the dripper to monitor. This is just for testing / curiosity sake, as it is not very safe, but it works a lot better.
For sure... it would be handy to have a CO meter as well, but it could get you out of a real pickle if you had to wait 3-4 days, or weeks for a new fuel pump to arrive.
OK now put the drip below the heater as you can the pump. Your drip. Won't work but the pump does as it builds up presure to beat gravety. Hence presure. Mind you you will get this presure no matter what pipe you use soft or hard. Mind you I use the hard pipe every time.
So many people seem to have gotten stuck on the word pressure... I thought I was clear about what this video was about. As you say, soft of hard line doesn't matter. What I'm debunking is "if you're not using rigid line you'll lose pressure". The line has no realistic effect on the pressure because the pressure is so low. Anything that has mass has pressure, so when I say "no pressure" I don't literally mean no pressure. That being said. People overlook my setup. It is not actually being fed the pressure of gravity, though I would forgive anyone for thinking this. It would only be fed gravity pressure if there was no restrictor valve, and the restriction was the heater. Meaning, the fuel on the bottom side of the restrictor is at a much lower pressure than on top of the restrictor. If the valve was closed, the pressure in the line would actually be negative.... a vacuum gauge would measure - and would increase as fuel was allowed to flow.
@@petethewrist Hmmmm .... perhaps I need to explain myself better. The fuel between the container and the chamber has a certain pressure. If you block the lone at the chamber, you can calculate the pressure based on the mass of diesel and the height. This would be the max pressure of gravity on this system. However, the line is not blocked at the chamber, and the opening at the chamber is completely free flow. The restriction in the fuel line is where the majority of the pressure is being exerted. Hopefully we can agree on this much. Now... if the fuel line is hanging in mid air, and fuel is coming out the end of it in drips, what is the pressure of these drips ? This is what is happening, only it doesn't even come out in drips, it comes out as capillary action, with the fuel sticking to the walls of the glow plug entrance. So... If there is a pressure, and I'm not convinced that you can call it that, as the fuel is in free fall with no restriction, how would this pressure be measured ? Pressure requires a restriction and the only restriction is the friction of the fuel due to its own viscosity and the surface of the metal. Does this make sense ?
@@loweredexpectations4927 gravity has the same force on any object regardless of size. The point is is that there is pressure. Enough to feed the thing. Good video over all.
@@petethewrist Yes, gravity has the same force, but that force doesn't always cause pressure, and the more there is if an object the more it weighs. Pressure is the resistance of force. Gravity has the same force on air molecules at the top and bottom of a mountain (essentially) but the pressure is different. This is the same thing as our gravity feed. What causes the pressure at the bottom of the mountain, is the molecules stacked on top of the ones at the bottom. What causes the pressure in the gravity feed system, is the column of fuel on top, all of it being forced down by gravity, in a sealed / contained system. Just like you can measure pressure in inches of mercury, you can measure inches of diesel, or water, or orange juice haha. When there is about 29 inches of mercury in a tube, with the top capped off but the bottom open, the force of gravity on the mercury is enough to cause an almost perfect vacuum where the tube is capped off, and the mercury will not fall out of the tube. While gravity applies the same force on all of the mercury, the pressure is not the same for all of the mercury.
I asked BARD, that has disclaimer at bottom, about correctness ;) In a Chinese diesel heater, the fuel pump actually does both pump and meter the fuel. Pumping: The pump delivers fuel from the tank to the heater unit against gravity and any resistance in the fuel lines. This ensures a steady flow of fuel for proper combustion. Metering: The pump also regulates the amount of fuel delivered based on the heater's operating requirements. This ensures efficient fuel usage and prevents flooding or starvation of the burner. As for fuel tank placement, it's not strictly necessary for the tank to be higher than the heater unit. Most Chinese diesel heaters can self-prime the fuel line as long as the tank is within a reasonable distance (typically less than 2 meters). However, there are some advantages to having the tank higher: Gravity assist: With a higher tank, gravity can help push the fuel to the pump, reducing its workload and potentially extending its lifespan. Reduced risk of air bubbles: Air bubbles in the fuel line can disrupt combustion and cause starting problems. A higher tank allows air bubbles to rise in the tank before reaching the pump, minimizing this risk. Easier installation: In some cases, having the tank higher can make it easier to install and access for maintenance. Ultimately, the decision of whether to locate the tank above or below the heater depends on your specific installation and preferences. Consult the manufacturer's instructions for your specific heater model for specific recommendations and limitations. Here are some additional points to consider: Pump location: Regardless of tank placement, ensure the pump is installed below the fuel pipe connection point on the heater to avoid air pockets. Fuel line length: Ideally, keep the fuel line as short as possible to minimize pressure loss and improve pump efficiency. Fuel filters: Use proper fuel filters to prevent contaminants from entering the pump and damaging it. By following these recommendations, you can ensure your Chinese diesel heater's fuel pump operates efficiently and reliably for optimal performance.
Thanks for the detailed comment. I don't understand your opening statement. What is "BARD" My argument isn't' that the dosing pump doesn't meter and pump. My argument is that the pressure of the pumping has no effect whatsoever on the performance of the heater, other than the ability of the fuel to make it to the burn chamber, in the correct volume. Yes... I always recommend having the tank above the pump and heater of possible. It just makes sense to use gravity to help prime the pump and feed the heater. They were doing so well until the end 🤣 . There is no such thing as pressure loss and the efficiency doesn't matter at all. I just ordered 30 Meters of fuel line... We will see if it matters. Of course, people will still say it matters, haha regardless. At 30 M, it may actually take a few seconds for the fuel to enter the chamber, but once it is primed and running, my predictions are that it will be fine.
Strange, I'd replied to this with link to BARD, AI bard.google.com/chat I said some stuff, that I do not feel like writing again. I do think the more pliable hose can matter. That each pulse would expand or contract, depending on push or pull side. Over some long distance it could be enough to lose much pressure. I'd agree with fellow about tank would be best elevated, some, higher than unit. @@loweredexpectations4927
Unfortunately even if you remove the cap on the holding tank, a gravity feed will always slow down as back pressure drops from consumption. Here's the solution. Install a valve on the bottom of the Holding tank. Run a tube from that valve down to an oil filter,then from the filter run another tube to a mini float valve like in your toilet. Install that float valve in a small Tupperware container. Install another valve on the bottom of the container. Than your transparent feed line to the heater so you can see the flow rate. Adjust the rate via the valve on the Tupperware container/carburetor. Open the valve completely on the holding tank. The level in the carb will level out and back pressure will remain the same until the tank runs out. Note:- if you install the cover on the holding tank and carburetor,you must drill a small hole on both so to allow air to get in. If not a vacuum pressure with occurs and the drip will stop.
I see you have thought this through extensively ! Well done. Basically a toilet tank type reservoir, or carburetor float bowl scaled up with a sepparet fuel tank ... I like it. That being said, the amount the pressure drops over time is very little, unless the tank is very tall, and the result is just a slightly leaner AFR when you get close to running out. If this was a permanent set up, then what you are suggesting would be ideal 👍
Very interesting. Now... can i just add that "we" who want to heat our garages or basement are, in effect extrapolating from TRUCK/camping car heater. Wabasto designed this so that a trucker could just "flip a switch", set the level, and warm up his cabin and sleep the night. Nonetheless. 10/10 from me for proving something relevant. Thanks
Absolutely. This is not a practical way to run your heater, especially in a vehicle... but anywhere. This was just an experiment. I recently ran the same heater without any ECU at all.
Joel, love your channel. However, I think you may have misunderstood the issue, likely due to the commenters using the wrong terminology. The concern with flexible fuel line is not fuel pressure in the automotive sense, but rather the force of the pulse of fuel that is injected into the pre-burn chamber. Flexible fuel line absorbs or deadens some of the initial pulse from the solenoid, resulting in a weak (but steadier) dribble of fuel onto or under the glow plug screen. Solid nylon line has less give and results in a more forceful (but shorter duration) injection of fuel into the pre-burn chamber, resulting in a wider dispersal of fuel across the screen and onto the glow plug itself. This assists in quicker ignition of the fuel on startup, which leads to less 'startup soot' (from the initial dribble of fuel getting cooked by the glow plug instead of immediately igniting). This may also assist in better/quicker atomization while the heater is running. The total amount of fuel injected is ultimately the same, but the 'spray pattern' (or lack thereof) is not. Somewhat similar to if you had a remotely mounted fuel injector on your car, with a rubber hose running from it to your cylinder - it would still meter the correct amount of fuel (ignoring timing) but fail to disperse it in an easily ignitable way. John McK, one of the original diesel heater youtubers, set up a demonstration of the difference in this video, at about 18 minutes in: ua-cam.com/video/jCZhjGyR3bo/v-deo.html
I appreciate your comment and your reasonable, polite and thorough way of explaining yourself. I will respectfully try to explain why this is not the case, and I hope not to offend you. I didn't name anyone in my video, but he is one of the people who gets this wrong. 13 minutes in he starts to explain how in your house you have anti knock or anti water hammer devices. He goes on to say this is the last thing you want in your heater. I get how this can be convincing... but if you Google search "dosing pump damper" you will see that he is very wrong. Many of the high end heaters come with dampers to smoothen out the pulses, doing exactly what a soft fuel line would do. While the preburn chamber theory may seem logical, it makes a few incorrect assumptions. Diesel makes soot when it doesn't have enough oxygen to burn completely and has nothing to do with how quickly or slowly it starts to burn. As the heater is running, there is no flame or burning inside the glow plug airea, and it is doused in diesel the entire time your heater is running. The glow plug turns on the cool down cycle go burn this away and prepare for the next start up. This process can often take several seconds as the mesh and plug are soaked. (I know because I have shut the heater down without using the cool down cycle) I have nothing against anyone for believing this, but the fact that they make dampers, and most high end heaters have dampers, should be all you need to know.
@@loweredexpectations4927 Absolutely no offense taken, if I am wrong, I am wrong, and I appreciate being bluntly told so! You make a great point about the dosing damper. My assumption has been that those are a compromise the manufacturers make to try to mitigate a much more customer-facing and immediately apparent complaint with diesel heaters (pump ticking) at the sacrifice of slightly shorter maintenance intervals or longer-term poor running, which a customer may not notice or care about. However, you could very well be right and it's simply that the manufacturers consider it a complete non-issue. Regardless, it does demonstrate that the lower impulse of the fuel is not a huge or critical issue, if it is even an issue at all. The soot issue I mentioned, I should have explained better, but stupidly the best word I could think of in the moment was 'cooked'. I was essentially trying to describe a rich condition - unignited fuel building up in the heater with no flame, and once the heater does manage to light, fuel air ratio being way off, resulting in soot, smoke, and the heater moaning/vibrating violently as the extra unmetered fuel combusts in an uncontrolled manner, until the heater manages to burn off all the excess. Similar to what happens when voltage drop is too much for the glow plug and it's just not hot enough to quickly ignite the fuel coming in - you can either up the voltage, or bring the fuel in closer contact with the glow plug. I do agree that John McK gets his share of things wrong (this test procedure for measuring exhaust decibels with/without muffler, for instance), however his test does show that the nylon line would very likely cause direct contact of the fuel onto the glow plug, while the flexible line would not. I agree there is no flame in the glow plug area while running and glow plug is off, and I'm definitely unsure if higher fuel impulse would have any affect here. I do think it would result in better atomization, as the fuel would be getting shot into the airstream created by the ignition air inlet hole instead of dribbling down the side of the ignition chamber. However, from the experience you describe, it's clear that the fuel is getting kicked up all over the ignition chamber anyway, possibly due to the turbulence of the inlet air or backblast from the combustion event. Or, possibly, the type of line you use (or short length) allows sufficient impulse to be transmitted. That may be an interesting and relatively easy video idea, if you're not tired of this topic already - trying out different lines and seeing if you can replicate the results John McK got. It's very possible that the flexible, unidentified line he used was just way too soft, and the green weedwacker fuel line that diesel heaters come with is stiff enough that it's not an issue. That would neatly explain all the divergent results and opinions on the topic - impulse might matter, but only in edge cases (unusually flexible or long line, weak fuel pump, large head, etc.) will impulse become so low as to make any sort of difference. Anyway, just a thought.
The chief advantage of the hard nylon line is its imperviousness to degradation from prolonged exposure to diesel fuel containing biodiesel and other lubricity additives. The ASTM standard for fuel tubing rated for biodiesel blends is not met by most clear flexible fuel hoses.
@@wallacegrommet9343 Agreed, that is the most important advantage, as it is a safety issue. One big caveat though is that with the cheap diesel heaters, the little bits of rubber hose they provide to link the nylon tube to the fittings are absolute garbage. I've consistently had them start cracking within a year of having regular diesel in them on multiple heaters. I now consider them a 100% no-question must-replace with actual name brand fuel hose from a parts store.
When I was about 13, I took my scout patrol on an overnight camp to a bush hut. The hut had an old cast iron pot belly fire but the firewood was mostly very wet so we couldn't keep the fire going. There was some diesel for the power generator so I put a tiny hole in the bottom of a spaghetti can, filled the can with diesel, and suspended it quite high over the fire. The fuel splashed down onto the cast iron and burned well enough for the pot belly to glow red hot. I don't know how I knew how to do that and I don't know how I've reached age 65.
What a lot of folks don't seem to understand is by the nature of how the "pump" works, it can't generate any meaningful pressure. It's a "metering pump" it's designed to allow in a specific amount of fuel, which is what each 'tic' is. It's a piezoelectric pump that uses a diaphragm to "pump" an expected amount of fuel into the combustion chamber. That's why you're playing with pulse numbers and the pump doesn't whine like a regular pressurized fuel pump that they're used to. The same principle is used on many larger small engines to supply fuel to the carb bowl, except where it's not piezo electric but powered by vacuum or exhaust pulses. Any fuel pressure is generated by gravity, the 'pump' is only there to make sure the bowl fills under high fuel demand and in the case of the heater, meters the amount of fuel to keep the mixture from running too lean or too rich because there isn't any carburetor to meter the fuel for the heater. Also, your cat is adorable and confirms my suspicions that orange cats and thinking clearly is not their forte. Poor lil guy 😂
Yes... this exactly. They even call them "dosing pumps" to try to clue us in, haha. Haha... yes, Quasar is adorable, and foolish. He likes a LOT of attention and that often gets in the way if him thinking strait.
I ran rigid fuel line for protection from rupture. My line runs through unfinished walls and who knows what kind of dumb stuff might be flying through the air. Two days ago, I launched a wheel hub out of my shop press which made for an exciting 2 seconds! With my recent experience with IVs (funny how this follows the last line so naturally), that little wheel thingamajig is used to stop fluid flow, and not to meter it. They have monitors that meter the dose rates. Maybe you should use that gadget you used to stop the flow, or as another poster said, a needle valve - something with finer adjustment. Good luck. We're all counting on you.
Haha... stay away from hospitals... unless you really need a hospital.... then, you better got to the hospital ! I agree. Rigid line is absolutely better in many ways. It has a lot of practical uses. No need to make up stories about how soft line absorbs pulses form the pump... I thought about editing that part out of the video where I commented on the flow valve, haha. My GF (X) is a Vet Tech and that's where I got the IV from. I'm aware they use pumps to control the dose. These valves are actually a emergency pack up and nurses / techs are trained to count out the drips if the machine fails. The drip tube is an indicator so they can see that it's working at a glance.... Like the balls in old gas pumps, haha.... what ever happened to those !! A needle valve would be way better... Way easier to control !
@@loweredexpectations4927 I am a former EMT and my son is a current nurse tech and nursing student. We all learn how to calculate IV rates using the roller lock and drip chamber. Most ambulances don't have IV pumps, all of their IV's are done with straight drip infusion sets. You don't need a needle valve, that roller valve and drip chamber will be more precise than you'll ever need. The IV infusion set will also tell you how many drops per mL, 10, 15 and 60 are pretty standard. Knowing that info, the drops per minute and the amount of fuel you have in the tank, you can easily calculate how long the fuel will last.
I didn't see anywhere in the video, where you adjusted the fan speed with the controller. It occured to me, you could control fan speed to lean, or enrichen the flame. To take it one step further, install a rheostat, to fine tune fan speed, for optimal burn
@@bernswonger57 Yes, that is true... You'd want to make sure that everything settles for a few minutes before and after making changes... They take time to settle as the fuel doesn't burn immediately when entering the heater. I have a few follow up videos to this one where I try to run the heater without an ecu. If you haven't seen them you may be interested.
i have seen the drip method used a lot in old diesel oil/waste oil conversions for wood stoves. so not a huge surprise that it works well. always nice to find other ways to get the same thing to work. it would be fun to fabricate a new external housing for the burner that allowed it to be used as a water heater. pumping water over the housing instead of air. i haven't set mine up yet but i like the ideas of sending the exhaust through a radiator before it goes outside to extract more heat from it.
Yeah... the problem / confusion is that people hear "diesel" and they think "diesel engine" ... People make a lot of assumptions.... Videos and posts saying "everything you need to know about X" or "You need to know these 5 heater hacks". "What they aren't telling you about your heater" .... those sort of videos do really well.... so a LOT of people who know nothing about these heaters do a quick google search and make one of these sensationalized videos, just for the views. "it would be fun to fabricate a new external housing for the burner that allowed it to be used as a water heater." I have been strongly considering this. I also want to do the radiator exhaust thing...
@@loweredexpectations4927I saw a British video on the heater where they put the exhaust thru a European wall radiator. Of course it needed a drain to drain the water vapor from the exhaust
@@SR-gt350 I've been wanting to do this with a modern hydronic heater / heat exchanger for a year now... but can't justify the cost.... and with the waste oil testing I was doing, anything I used would have been clogged, haha.
@@loweredexpectations4927 ya, the way you exhausted it onto the garage would recover 100% heat as long as you're OK with water vapor and adjusting for CO as well have CO detectors.
@@SR-gt350 Venting into my garage is not a long term solution, heh... Merely for testing. I feel like regardless of how careful you are, this is not a good idea is you are depending on it for heat. There are many fun and creative ways to capture heat from the exhaust, and even of you lose a few percent outside, it's worth it to avoid the health risks. Death takes care of all of your health problems, unfortunately there are a lot of other hazards from exhaust gasses, haha.
At last someone who has debunked that Australian guys claims. I've had my 2kW heater running in my van for the last 4 years with Tygon soft fuel line with no issues. the line even runs up and down and any air bubbles formed by the action of the pump just run along the line and don't stop it working at all. I keep telling people that the way the pump works, if it has fuel to pump in on its inlet side, it will pump it out on the outlet side, and then whatever goes in one end of the fuel line, will have to come out the other end (unless there's a break in it along its length) so the type or bore size of fuel line makes no difference, once the line is full. The fact that the manufacturers sell dampers for the fuel line makes their arguments worthless.
Yes... somehow people just ignore it when I ask them about the dampers.... I have some upcoming tests that you may enjoy ... I ordered 30 metres of soft aliexpress fuel line, haha. Bubbles have never been an issue for me either... as long as there's not a huge air pocket, you don't even notice bubbles. These bubbles occur in rigid line and act as dampers.... so that's another way this idea is disproved. Regardless of any tests that I do, many people get caught up on these ideas... like they have a romantic relationship with them. People like solving problems, and it's really really easy to solve a problem that doesn't exist ... If you take that away from someone, you are robbing them of their success 🤷♂️ ... still... the truth is better.
Anybody that thinks a pump is needed have never had to heat there house with a "fuel oil stove". Gravity works just fine..... The fuel pump is for convenience when you can not have the fuel above the burner and to stop the fuel when you shut it down.. Thx for sharing......
You absolutely can! The easiest way would be as simple as using PWM motor speed controllers to control fan motor speed and glow plug temp. You can use a handheld tachometer and a laser pyrometer to figure out the proper settings for your motor speed and glow plug temp. And then just use the IV drip chamber for fuel. Like you said, you'd obviously never want to run it this way unattended, but as a proof of concept, it would work just fine. Just make sure you buy PWM controllers with a high enough amperage rating to handle the current draw of the glow plug and fan motor. I don't recall the exact numbers, do you'd want to verify it before buying parts, but I believe the glow plug draws about 6-10 amps, and the fan draws around 2-3. You can get controllers rated in those current ranges for about $5 and $10, respectively, so you'd be about $15 all in. You could save a few bucks just by manually switching the power to the glow plug. But running it at full power will probably reduce the life of the glow plug. If you wanted to add some other features like heat exchanger temp monitoring, that would also be pretty easy to do with a simple thermocouple, as you've done in the past.
Removing the fuel pump and using gravity only by-passes the safety feature of the unit. When the fuel pump is used and the power to the controller is interrupted the fuel pump stops working thus cutting off fuel and preventing burnout. With a gravity fed system, when power is cut from the controller, the controller shuts off and fan is stopped working yet fuel will continue to feed the unit, cause it to overheat and potentially cause a fire. If you are going to gravity feed you need to a way to also cut the fuel when the power goes out.
Thanks for the comment. I believe I pointed these things out in my video. This is not safe for a few reasons. There are ways that you could make this safe, but I probably won't do those things as this was just for an experiment.
No comments abut the cat! You can see in the slow mo, the eyes meet the landing spot and the amount of push required from the back legs. Four legged landing! Back to the heater...
That’s hilarious. I have told my wife before about a cat that looks just like one of ours on your channel. Now, he’s shown that they act alike also. Pluto can fall off a 6” wide railing!… and catch himself😂
Great advice and video. Many thanks for sharing the knowledge. There will always be the so-called self proclaimed "I know better professionals) speculators and armchair nothing to do advisors. Well there is always something to be learned from others. My guess is tat most and the majority of the critics know no better as the chances are they have never do a thought testing method, or wouldn't know were to begin. Thanks for sharing. I'm sure if it works for you, then it works for others. They just need to give it a try.
There are a lot of good reasons to be confused about how things and physics works. We all talk in general terms with an understanding of the idea behind the message... This is a much more efficient way to communicate. It can also lead to people clinging onto a specific word or phrase and creating a situation that doesn't match reality. These ideas are often much more fun / romantic to believe than the truth. Every man in his shop likes to feel like he's making things better.... and if you can get the feeling of making things better by adding $16 of fuel like that's awesome... Then some prick on the internet comes along and tries to take that away from you. Haha... Humans are tender beings, even the tough ones... I'm no excepting and my ego and ignorance can and has gotten in the way. I try to acknowledge it and move on. 🤟
Yes, this work work... It's not 100% ideal, as the heater goes through a cool down cycle that takes a few minutes. During this time the fuel would still be flowing. An electric valve that was connected to a heat sensor, that turned off at 80C would reduce flooding the chamber with extra fuel.
I'm at the hospital a lot and that contraption isn't used to regulate the medication going into you. It is used to get the air out of the line. Unless that line is hooked up to a pump, that does regulate the amount of medication going into you, your heart is the pump that regulates the flow of the medication. But normally they do that with like a saline solution or something mild. Every time they pump a different medication into me, they always will tell me it will be over the course of an hour for this med. Or 2 hours for this med or only maybe 10 minutes for this one. But they always have one of those contraptions hooked before the line goes in to the pump to get the majority of the air out.
Yeah... I probably should have corrected that. My X is a vet tech, that's where I got the IV drips from.... They always use a pump for accurate delivery these days. I don't think that's correct about the air though .... The dlrip is used to monitor the drip so they can glance at it and see if it is working. It is also used in an emergency to count out drips per minute. The regulator valve is used to set the flow in an emergency, or if you don't have one of those fancy machines.
Just saying, that is absolutely not true, the roller clamp is not designed to only get the air out of the line, it is designed to control your flow rate of the fluid or medication going into you. You use the clamp and you open it wide when you're flushing the line of any air, then it's dialed to the MANUAL rate that the patient needs. If you are put on a pump, then the dial is usually wide open so the pump doesn't throw an obstruction code which will happen if it's not able to pull the amount of fluid that is dialed into the actual pump. Just so you know, that's what that does and here is an article so you can see if you don't believe. Just some knowledge :)
@@loweredexpectations4927 Do it! A couple cheap PWM controllers for the fan and glow plug. The glow plug is set to 85w default, but people have said it will run fine at 40 watts. Yeah, I thought it was BS when I first saw it.
It's cool that now we know that the fuel "pump" is a metering device. What really blows my mind is that the exhaust is running straight into your living space without killing you.
HAHA... yes... Thanks for not attacking me about my exhuast. Some people don't understand, so they decide to lash out... Saying "it blows my mind" seems like a better approach.👍 I wouldn't recommend venting your exhaust inside, but when you understand CO and CO poisoning, this isn't really that dangerous or shocking (for a short test) The real danger is the TVOC as they can stick with you for a long time. These pumps are actually called "dosing pumps" so the clue is in the name... they tried to tell us and we ignored them, haha. I did nother video recently where I talk more about the actual dangers of CO and what the different levels will do. I linked some OSHA info in the description of that video.
I have seen that the replacements are called "dosing" pumps. ( A dosing pump is a positive displacement pump that is designed to inject a chemical or any other substance into the flow of water, gas or steam. Dosing pumps are typically small and provide an extremely precise flow rate for maximum control )
While the heater does not require the upgraded line to run properly and effectively, the metering pump does need it to run at peak performance and not cause code issues. In your benchtop situation using gravity feed (which is not practical to all installations as not all can have their fuel above the heater) you have constant flow to the heater once you bled the air out. The dosing pump needs a firm (or better, solid) line downstream of the pump leading to the heater with the pump pointed discharge up at 15 - 90 degrees to allow for cavitation air to be removed from the line and to allow for a consistent flow to the heater. The suction end of the pump requires no hard line and is better suited to the larger volume soft line that comes standard with the heater as it does not restrict the incoming fluid to the pump which in turn will cause less pump cavitation. The way you have shown would work great for some applications if it could be run with a solenoid valve that is 12v open and closed with the loss of power. Could possibility be connected to the pump wiring to avoid any start-up codes? Thoughts?
No this is not at all practical... just a demonstration that as long as fuel gets to the heater, it will start and run fine. These heaters (ECUs) are stupid and only know a few things about the heater.... Despite what the manuals (and internet) says, what these code actually mean is almost always WAY over... what's the word.... There a LOT of guessing. The heater knows if the temp drops too low, or if a few things are disconnected or shorted... that's it. Everything else they say in the manual is possible causes. Example. E08 = Too low of temp was detected. Anything beyond that is pure guessing. The line bein rigid has nothing to do with the operation of the heater. Pressure pulses from the pump being dampened by the line, or by anything else (the sell inline dampers) does not affect performance... that is what this video is about. The fact that rigid line has a smaller diameter makes it easier to bleed, and the velocity of the fuel is greater, so bubbles are less likely to get trapped. This may matter if you have may feet of line. I have ordered 30 metres of soft line for testing. I believe I will be able to get it to fail... my question is how far will I have to push it. The pump should be gravity fed to reduce cavitation, but the restriction of flow when the pump is pumping .022 ml per pulse, is not an issue.... In any system, the actual restriction that matters is the greatest one, and that only matters if the flow requirements are greater than the capabilities of the restriction.... Hope that makes sense, haha. Basically, If you are forcing your pump to pull up 2 feet out of a tank, the restriction caused by lifting that fuel is many times greater than the restriction caused by the diameter of the line. You can probably connect a resistor to the pump wires and mimic the pump. I have tried a light bulb, but it knows it's a short, haha.
I've been using one of these 5KW heaters for the first time this winter. The whole set-up was a bit daunting (including the hole in the wall), but now that I did it... there's no turning back. Will buy a few more for next winter and just as a back-up. I have a strong feeling the governments will soon ban these things when they get too popular. The only drawback is that when the electricity goes out, these heaters are toast.
Haha... yes, putting a hole in your wall is.... not a normal thing to do. I have yet to put a hole in my garage wall and have been trying to come up with any other way... like using my ventilation system. Not a good idea. If you get yourself a decent car battery and keep it connected to your power supply, it will be enough to run your heater for 12 - 24h depending on the size of the battery. Last winter I used a little jet ski battery and it was able to keep it running on high for 10 hours.
I have the same thoughts about governments poking their nose in. Although it's interesting to watch, there are too many thoughtless experiments and bad installs. A few fatalities will get them severely restricted. I'm buying another now just in case. Set up was a bit daunting but I'm glad I did it.
@@Cybertruck1000 My grandfather died because he cut himself while preparing chicken and was too stubborn / stupid to go to the hospital until it was too late. Fuckwits are going to find a way to kill themselves with a popsicle stick... you ban popsicle sticks and they just find a new way.
If you run it on a car battery you are good for about 30 hours runtime with no power, add a solar charger to the loop and that should extend you to 40-50 hours with a 40 watt panel
@@Zzrdemon6633 Agreed. Any sort of a solar panel whatsoever and you wont' have to worry about power. Even at full heat, these things draw very little power. A car battery and 100W solar panel and even on a cloudy day, you'd have nothing to worry about.
I have also recently purchase 30 metres of fuel line and plan on performing some ridiculous tests. I imagine I will be pushing the heater to failure... but we will see what it takes.
Not two problems out with one solution use a solenoid valve that's wired up to the fuel pump wires that way if it ever kicks off the solenoid valve would be shut so it's safety and it would still kick on
This is a good idea with a little bit of tweaking... The pump pulses, so you would need a circuit board that kept the solenoid powered as long as it was getting pulses, but then closed the solenoid if the pulsing stopped. You may be able to do this with a capacitor and solenoid valve, I'm not sure.
@@loweredexpectations4927 the pump itself pulses but does the power to it stay steady or does that pulse the pump might be what causes its own pulsing however if it is the power source that makes it pulse then you simply tap into the power supply for the fan run some wires over to the solenoid along with the wires for the pulse pump run them in parallel it should be the same voltage regardless this should solve the problem without needing any extra parts other than the solenoid
@@ElectroFriedRiggin Yes, good question. All of the pulsung (hz control) is done by the ECU / motherboard. The pump is basically a solenoid plunger that displaces fuel each time power is fed to it. They operate between .8 and 6 hz, in general. Tapping into the fan could work but would likely require additional circuitry as well. The problem being that any additional component is either going to increase resistance (in series) or decrease resistance (in parallel). At the very least this would change the speed of the fan ... not a big deal if you are feeding fuel manually. However, the ECU will see the change in resistance and pick this up as a problem with the fan. On most ECUs, this will throw a fault code and shut the heater down. I have a video coming out in the next few days where I got my heater to run without an ECU at all. I used light bulbs in a parallel circuit to control the fan speed so I have 3 speeds... It was a lot of fun.
I wonder if you could put a normally closed liquid solenoid valve in line with the fuel line, and have it wired into the fuel pump wires so the pulses, with the help of a capacitor circuit, would keep the valve open, but if the power shut down, the fuel line would be closed.
This could work. The issue would be that the ECU needs to see the proper resistance or it will not start / operate . There may be a way to do it. I have a video coming this weekend where I remove the ECU and run the heater using only a 12V battery and some light bulbs, haha.
The flow will start when the pressure is POSITIVE, even minor push will start the flow. Also minor VACUUM will do the job, but with opposite direction. So the main point is to keep the route in such that the flow will continue. The tubes in such a small pressure is very variable of strength, main is the usable with fuel(s). The application of your as "medical" is awesome!😊
The pumps purpose is to lift the fuel if the tank is mounted below the heater, or to insure fuel flow from a long distance especially in colder weather. My unit needs to pull the fuel from at least 6meters, Had huge problems with the supplied fuel hoses Leaking splitting more so in colder weather below -10c Replaced the hoses with insulated copper tubing and heavy duty rated diesel hose and spring clamps on all joints, these are metering pumps and should not be eliminated or by passed, I have spare pump mounted beside the pump so it's only a few minutes to change over if it fails, these pumps are known to fail, and they are cheap, Haven't Had a problem ever since.
There are plenty of great reasons to use rigid fuel line, and if you can justify the cost and effort to install steel or copper, that's awesome... it's not going to give you any troubles. There are lots of different quality levels of soft fuel line, and many of them deteriorate over time, while I have Yamaha fuel line that is 30+ years old and still as good as the day it was made. A spare pump. That's a good idea. You are a belt and suspenders sort of fellow, as they say. If it's really cold and your pump fails, you will be glad you did this. These pumps are pretty incredible, but all mechanical things will eventually fail. Bypassing the pump was only for demonstration purposes, to show that these systems do not require forceful injection of fuel to operate. If the fuel gets to the heater, it will run fine.
i guess you could use carb jets with very small hole to control drip rate and have it at fixed flow the problem i see is hight of fuel level or tank would alter the flow so as the tank gets lower the the less pressure of the fuel been pushed along the pipe
A fixed size jet would work for sure, as long as you get the size right. An adjustable needle valve would allow you to slow the fan down and adjust fuel accordingly. The fuel pressure would drop, but this would only cause the heater to lean out slightly. The result from that is just slightly less heat from a full tank compared to an almost empty tank.
A solenoid with a good spring that you can somehow use to squeeze the feed line when there's no power. So if you lose power, or the heater stops burning, the solenoid is de-energized and squeezes the line closed.
@@loweredexpectations4927 This normally closed solenoid still needs a failsafe mode for flame out without power out. I once realized this for a waste oil burner with a cheap 45°C normally closed temperature switch - in combination with a timer module for startup "sequence", so i didn't have to manually keep the feed open to reach this 45°.
Yeah... a needle valve or even a ball valve would be a good choice... I mean... "good" choice as this is just a silly idea, haha. Other than an emergency, this is not at all practical.
Thanks for the comment. I have wanted to do this for a long time and assumed that my pump would die... but haven't been able to kill it, haha.... I'm going to have to get a new one and cut the new one apart !
Thanks for clearing this up. Every time I saw someone talking about the need for a better fuel hose I wondered why since I didn't see any way that it would be pressurized. If one were to put something like a mister nozzle on the end, with enough pressure to atomize the fuel, would it improve the burn efficiency/cleanliness?
Yeah, I've always questioned it too. I think the only way it might be an issue if you have a really long run between the pump and the heater, and it's having to push it a ways uphill. Even then, I think it would still work fine, as long as the pump can't backflow... I've never actually checked a pump to see if it has a check valve, but even if it doesn't the solution would be as simple as installing a check valve. For me, I am running my fuel lines under a toy hauler that sees a lot of gravel roads, so I ran the hard lines. I'm planning on upgrading to a MUCH larger and permanent fuel tank, and when I do that, I plan on just running stainless steel hardline from the tank, at which point, the fuel supply system will easily outlast the trailer, no matter how much gravel gets flung at it...
Thanks for the comment and question. If you could get the mist to happen in the burn chamber, then yes, a mist would help... I am trying to build a custom burner for this purpose. The problems are many when trying to do this with the stock heater, though. First problem is that the fuel enters into the glow plug area (preburn chamber) and needs to do this so that the heater can initiate the burn. You don't want fuel just spraying onto the glow plug, as the plug turns off after start up and the fuel wouldn't burn.... so the mister would have to be located after the plug in the burn chamber.... then it would have no way to initiate the burn. This is one of the easier problems to solve, and there are many more, haha. The bottom line is that these heaters burn REALLY clean when set up correctly, as is evident from my testing so adding a mist system would be added complexity for very little or no gains.
@@loweredexpectations4927 Despite having watched many of your videos about these, I still don't know the exact relationship between the fuel nozzle, burn chamber, mesh, and glow plug so it's hard for me to fully understand it. I think if you were to spray the fuel at the glow plug it would stay hot enough to keep the fire going.
@@DonziGT230 I don't blame you for thinking that... However, in order to start reliably, the glow plug is surrounded with a mesh tube. This allows the fuel to spread out and vaporize, allowing the flame to start quickly. This design requires the plug and mesh to be in a enclosed area. An enclosed area is not ideal for mist or for the main burn. To get the correct air volume in this small space the air speed would be very high and would require more pressure. The likelihood of flaming out would be very high. For your main burn area you want a good air volume without a lot of air speed. If you are misting fuel in and it is burning, you also need open space for the gasses to expand so that you don't have a pressure spike... a pressure spike will cause the flow of air to stop, or reverse. In my burn chamber design where I used mist, I basically used no mist to start the heater and allowed the fuel to drool in onto the glow plug. Once the flame started, air pressure was slowly added so that the flame could transition between the pool of burning fuel to the mist of fuel. The folks who designed these heaters all those years ago really knew what they were doing... and altho they seem pretty simple, there is a LOT of thought and engineering involved.
I'm glad your old heater is still working. I got my old sweeping brush working, I just swapped out the head, and put a new handle on it. Good as new 😂. "Only fools and horses work" UK reference
Right on ! Keeping that old stuff running. Way better and more satisfying than just getting new junk. Never heard that before, had to read it twice to understand.
I can say for sure there's no pressure and it don't matter what fuel line is used I have the 8 kw vevor Bluetooth heater and it's running like a champ no matter what I setup for it
I remember when my cumbustion chmaber was gone, it maked the same sound, mesh inside burned out. Changed to new cumbustion chamber and runs like new. I would open garage doors or window when this heater is running, carbon monoxide is hazard. Make a test with different fuel pump angles, that would be interesting on fuel consumtion aspect ratio
Thanks for the comment. I was running a brand new combustion chamber in this video. I believe it was making that sound because I had no inlet or exhaust installed, and also because the exchanger was pretty dirty. Opening windows and doors is a good idea for sure. I was using a CO meter as well as a TVOC, CO2 and HCHO meter during this testing, but still a good idea.
@@loweredexpectations4927 in my case the noise like in this video ua-cam.com/video/QvC2bZy9bI8/v-deo.htmlsi=3msxMQh_ONl02EOF&t=377 , stayed all the time, after running heater 1 season, 2kw version, could not underrstand why. Even tried metal mesh in cumbustion chamber but noise was gone only for 2 days. Only replacing cumbustion chamber solved problem. To fix that mesh whats inside, have to cut it, replace mesh and weld it, Seen some videos on russian youtube channels, they usualy tries to fix things whats even not fixable but at the end it works. Be carefull with carbon manoxide, friends granpa died in sealed garage while fixing car when engine was running. Real story.
@@olegs_vacija Thanks for your concern. Yes, friends of my family, and father and son, both died in their home made camper the first night they took to out. CO is no joke.
Yeah, that's getting a little complicated, but it would be very precise ! I'm guessing for many electronics nerds out there it would be easy to convert the HZ pulses to an analogue signal or varied voltage for the peristaltic pump.
well…technically its “Nicopp” -best of both worlds…lol I have an old CUCV diesel truck and installed a hot water version of the chinese heater as a block heater. It came standard with Nicop. when I installed a hot air model in my garage..the nylon tubing really just melts as nylon burns / melts too easily. I love these heaters… but another problem is that if you lose power…the cool down cycle cant operate…and the unit will self destruct. so…I use a server UPS to provide power to a 12v transformer power supply. If power is interrupted…unit will operate for another 30 minutes…use an arduino as auto off switch if UPS status is on
Yeah... I have had my exhaust glowing red and had my fuel line bubbling, haha. If you are careful about how you route the line, this is manageable, but metal line is not ever going to have an issue.
Absolutely ! Especially for long straight runs... rigid makes more sense. Less likely to kink, easier to fasten without worrying about pinching it... Lots of great reasons to use rigid line.
You need a little needle valve in there to control flow. I don't know how compatible it'd be from a chemical standpoint but have a look in the drip irrigation department of your favorite home improvement store, they have little plastic needle valves to adjust water flow for like 50¢ a pop.
Funny that you mention that. An old friend of mine stopped by the other evening and had the exact same thing to say, haha. I may even have a brass needle valve around, but I'm not sure that I could make it fit, so the 50 cents is probably a better idea.
@@ebenwaterman5858 Haha... Yes... I have one I think for the humidifier feed line on a furnace. Not the easiest thing to attach to as it uses compression fittings and 1/8 npt .
The short answer is no. It uses a steady voltage that cycles at a lower or higher frequency to increase or decrease flow. This generally ranges form .8 hz (less than once a seconds) to 5hz (5 times a second) The module would need to be something that had a frequency generator... not sure if that's what it is called ... maybe pulse frequency generator ? haha.
Yes... Pressure is the restriction of flow. Like I said, people get stuck on the word pressure here, because, if the pump has to lift fuel up to the heater, then there is pressure in the line due to gravity... while this is true, the pressure is greatest at the pump, and nonexistent at the outlet of the fuel line.
That is completely false. If that was true, what is the restriction that causes atmospheric pressure? If that was true, what is the restriction that causes head pressure? Dive under water and the head pressure increases as you go deeper without any restriction to flow. There is a massive misunderstanding of physics going on here. I normally love this channels videos, but this is completely misinformation.
Another fun Video of you just " sending it".. I truly enjoy these experiments kinda takes me back.. Anyway, pay no attention to the keyboard warriors, your peeps love your videos .
I mess around with my Heat Up & Down, Too Warm, THEN too Cold I’m sticking with the clicker *UNTIL* I’ve enough monies to go live in an all year round WARM COUNTRY lol Excellent stuff bruh☮️🏆
Haha... yeah... a warmer climate is smart. Some new controllers have thermostats similar to in your house, and you can buy a device called a Bureck CD Thermostat, that turns your heater on and off.
@@loweredexpectations4927 my Ex used to do similar things to “Said APP” Sounds Like an Alexa on Roids lol, and at a guess I’m 99.9% POSITIVE it’d cost a whole lot less having this APP 😇😜
Interesting experiment, thanks for the information. It's appreciate by me and many others, it's good to have others opinions and input even if they are sometimes a little aggressive in their comments.
👍🏽 🇬🇧 January 2024 This channel/chap is my David McLuckie of 2024! What a find! I absolutely _love_ these diesel heaters - & am so glad that the patents ran out on Eberspächer & Webasto - Karma coming home to roost (they weren't exactly especially more reliable).
HAH ! Naw... Those folks are pretty incredible. These things are mini engineering miracles. Truly awesome that they designed these so many years ago to be so simple, reliable, durable and cost effective.
Another thing could you possibly put a reducing orifice in the metal fuel inlet while burning waste oil. I know you probably won't read these but i would really like to get it to work on waste oil without having to clean every couple days
I try my best to read and respond to every comment. I don't want to burst your bubble, but I have spent 4 months trying to get one of these to burn waste oil... several hours every day. I have about 30 videos on the subject starting last December. Waste oil requires a LOT of heat to burn "clean" and even when the combustion is clean, deposits are left behind. These heaters basically operate like a candle, flashing off fuel on the surface, so the deposits will always form where the fuel is pumped in. I haven't given up on the idea completely, but "real" waste oil burners atomise the fuel with a spray. This spreads the resulting ash over a larger area and avoids rapid build up in one spot. The only thing that might work for you is running 10% waste oil, maybe a bit more.
Those are dosing pumps. They say right on them what they are normally .22 or .65ml per pulse. Some of the older controllers let you set the Hertz and fan speed. So at 5hz it's 5x pump dosage per minute
the fact that you have it cyling at 70 per minute on the highest heat setting (according to your controller) is a tribute to how over fuelled these things are , i guess these big companies are all linked anyhow so why wouldn't they . , there is another guy on the tube setting his at 1 hz on the lowest setting , assuming thats one pump (drip per second) , it seems it is possible to go lower on the number 1 control setting . (Would it be possible to just pinch the fuel line a little upstream of the pump?) or would it destroy it , great work , very interesting thanks .
Dave McLuckie and his viewers built a heater like this... it takes a lot of TEGs to make this happen. I would love to do it... not sure if I can justify the cost.... It requires at least 50 watts to power the heater alone, during normal operation 👍
hey dont know if someone said regarding the continous dripping u can put an electrovalve that is always on when the pump is receiving signal dont know the voltage .....but its shuts off when pump stops receiving signals, maby an additional circuit because i asume the signal is pwm or an ac electrovalve is required sorry english is not my first language
Thanks for the comment. Yes, this would require extra circuitry, as the power from the pump is pulsed. I believe you can even get a device called a "delay relay" where it requires a certain amount of time after it stop receiving signal power to shut off. They used them in an old Polaris snowmobile EFI system in the 90S Your English is pretty good 👍👍
You want to warm an open fishing boat ? I'm not sure how this would work. Maybe I just don't know what an "open fishing boat" is.... For anything open you are going to need massive amounts of BTU (kwh). For brands, you can't go wrong with the high end ones like Planar, Espar and Webasto, but they will cost you 10 times what a chinese copy will. The high end ones will come with sealed electrical connectors, so that's good for a boat. They also come with better quality exhaust and muffler, from everything I've heard. The chinese copies are all about the same with a few differences / preferences. I have only tested Vevor units and have some 5 kw units linked in the description of this video. If you are trying to heat the enclosed area at the front of a fishing boat, I would assume a single 5kw unit would be enough. I have bluetooth versions listed below that are easy to use and have lots of great reviews.
I think it actually states this clearly in the owner's manual ... "In case of fuel pump failure, 80 drips per minute on max level is the ideal AFR for 3500 ft elevation."
Is there a way to take an ohm measurement of the fuel pump and then substitute a fixed resistor across the wires so the ECU doesn't know any different?
Wow. This sentence is incredibly hard to decipher. I'm going to try to translate. Maybe "If you don't have any money, trying to find a solution to replacing a broken part, is stupid" ... ? This is my best guess. Did you get confused and think that this video was about not using a pump if your pump fails and you don't have any money ? The title of the video, the introduction and the content should make it clear that's not what it's about. Not having any money seems like a pretty good reason to come up with solutions, other than spending money... that you don't' have. This video is about soft fuel lines absorbing energy .... and the fact that this doesn't make your heater work poorly.
This would require some sort of circuitry because the pump receives pulses. Perhaps the right capacitor could do the job. I'm not an electronics guy, but it could be done. It would be better to connect to the fan power as it is a steady supply... the problem with that is if the flame goes out for any reason, the fuel will continue to flow until the fan stops... this might take several minutes as the heater completes the cool down cycle and could make a mess of diesel. The best solution would be to have a thermo switch that switched at 80C or something like that. That way, soon after the flame went out, the fuel would stop.
Joel, Hope you and yours had a great christmas, I think many people are confused, It never was about fuel pressure, it was about saftey, the rigid nylon narrow guage fuel line is less likely to soften and be destroyed by the exhaust pipe if you dont wrap the exhaust pipe in fibreglass tape. the wider green fuel line also allows excess air to build up inside it, which effects running for some people. I know there is no pressure because sometimes the fuel needs priming before a start as the fuel can run back into the tank if it is not run for a very long time. then again most people dont have a 15 foot fuel line to the tank, in which case the narrow guage nylon line helps matters a lot. Using an IV how do you know if you exceed more than 5.5 Mhz fuel delivery limit? How does the ecu calculate the airspeed from the internal fan if the fuel is not being set by the pulse of the pump? you explained that this happens, then went on to do the exact opposite if you dont get enough air for the amount of fuel delivered you are possibly risking loosing the ecu from over heating. I think in the name of saftey id rather spend 15 dollars rather than have my home or van burnt to the ground but hey you ignore saftey at your own risk, maybe it will bite you maybe it wont maybe your just lucky or maybe its just a matter of time, if I were messing with a diesel heater doing things its not supposed to do id want the stronger fuel line and then exhaust fibreglass tape and to be safe not stupid or ignorant about it and tell poeple on videos on youtube that saftey is all a myth, (if they are confusing saftey with different fuel lines) thats fking dangerous man. it takes one idiot to get his home or garage burnt down and a loss of life and the whole state/country will ban them forever. weve already had vevor desel heaters seized by customs over here for safety concerns January 2023. for gods sake man do more research and be careful, no one wants to see you get hurt because a few youtube watchers are confused about saftey concerns and that is all that the fuel line debate was about saftey and the possible causation of fire with the green stuff being so close to the exhaust pipe. youve only got to warm it with a lighter to see how it behaves under warm heat then do the same with the nylon stuff, I would bet youll covert to the nylon fuel line imeadiately.
I did mention that good fuel line is a good idea. I don't necessarily think the rigid stuff is always the way to go. I find it to be a huge pain unless you are making long straight runs. I have had many people tell me that you need to use the rigid line, because the soft stuff flexes / expands under pressure and the fuel isn't delivered to the heater properly. I've also seen at least 3-4 videos about this and several forum posts. Many people have told me that the original fuel line will make the heater work poorly and weren't just worried about it kinking or failing. I can see how the narrow gauge line would make it quicker to prime. That's a benefit for sure if you have a long fuel line. I have frequently seen air in my fuel line, but have never noticed any negative side effects. Unless it flames out, it will just run a little lean for a few seconds.... I suppose.
I just tried: The white fuel line isn't PVC, no acid, when burning - it's the same plastic, which is used for automotive fuel lines. But it burns nonetheless - can be ignited with a small gas lighter and continues to burn, dripping flaming drops. The soft green line - no idea, what plastic, it's not silicone - also ignites with a lighter, takes a while though - and it also continuos burning. So - no difference there. The green line does degrade though within one year - not everywhere - only partially, mainly at bends. I will never use the green stuff underneath a car, where it may have a fuel spill, when cracked. But really - this should be clear from the start. At least for somebody, who has to do with automobiles. The white stuff is proven in automotive world, the black rubbery stuff was once durable and safe, but then they changed the ingredients and now we have a worldwide rubber durability crisis for at least a decade now - care has to be taken! Seriously! Not sure, that an expensive black NBR-fuel line lasts longer than the green line these days! But i agree, Joel should use the first 60 seconds for declaimers of all imaginable sorts again, because, that's UA-cam and even Einstein didn't have any idea, where human stupidity might end.
@@werner.x It makes a cool noise when the flaming bits fall to the ground ... like 1970s space lasers ! I have seen that the green stuff hardens around fittings and bends more than other areas. I haven't had any leak or fail yet, other than from severe overheating, haha. Haha... yes... I don't dispute that the white line is better, and I don't dispute that it is a good idea to use it especially for an automotive application. All I was trying to say is that these heaters do not care if the fuel line has flex or not. The force of the fuel being delivered has zero effect on the way the heater operates.
@@loweredexpectations4927 I fully agree, that these heaters don't need squirting fuel. I just dedicated this answer to the man in the van, who is concerned, that you'd recommend flammable fuel line and therefore created unneccessary danger zones.
Yes drip feed will allow the heater to work, but you will have no control over the amount of heat. Why try to reinvent the wheel. If the noisy pump is your issue put it in a lead lined box for complete silence.
Thank you. I doubt you can make a whole video on that amp draw. I was thinking of using a 24 volt drill battery to run it. I already ordered the step down converter twice. The first was only rated at 10 amps, I just ordered a 30 amp one that might get here before the first one.@@loweredexpectations4927
I see I replied to the wrong comment. I'm pretty sure that a substantial tool battery would work to power the Devor, but the scary part would be the battery going dead and the damaging the heater. There is a module that would shut the heater off to save the battery and I think an in-line relay relay could switch on another battery and maybe an alarm to let you know you are on reserve power and even maybe start the sequence to do the Devor shut-down. To simply answer your question in your reply.......YES! @@loweredexpectations4927
This is an option for sure. Ideally it would be normally closed. That way if the power goes out, it closes... and then a thermal switch could also turn it off in the case the flame went out👍
Albert Einstein once said something like "brilliant spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" keep up the great work and educational content Buddy❤
Haha... yeah. People get too attached to their ideas. If you challenge their idea, they take it personally as tho you are saying something about them as a person... Nope... just experimenting and showing my findings.
Many ideas and beliefs are based upon ignorance of which many cherish dearly. People become unhinged by things that challenge their beliefs even if it is factual. It's called human nature. The pioneers of truth often face harsh opposition until the rest of the crowds catch on. @loweredexpectations4927
Excellent presentation, you are correct about the fuel pump, it only pumps fuel, not pressure. Only pressure will exist if downstream pump line is restricted. Means no restriction no pressure....I'm a Hydraulic and pump technician. Kudos....
You have no idea how many people still disagree..... Gotta love youtube comments. haha. Thanks.
I think you're doing a great job, keep up the good work...there's nothing like good bench testing@@loweredexpectations4927
The tinkering you’re doing is really interesting.
There are two sizes of gravity fed drip sets, 15 gtts and 60 gtts. That looks like a 15 (15 drops per mL) which is used for higher flow rates and would be important for people to know. 60’s are often used for medication administration in the field where more fine tuning is needed, usually piggybacked on a larger 1000 cc saline bag.
We use these drip set for all sorts of off the menu applications including flushing eyes, etc. It made me chuckle to see you use it for this!
Awesome vid.
Haha... thanks for the comment.
I got a few of these form my girlfriend who works as a vet tech at an animal clinic. I didn't know about the two drip volumes. I know they usually use these with a pump and not to actually set the flow, but as a way to tell at a glance if things are about right. Or at least that's my inderstanding.
@@loweredexpectations4927 Maybe you’re done with this subject in your vids but if you were curious and wanted to fine tune the flow rate you could run the 15gtts. in tandem with a 60 gtts.. Get the 15 to about where you want it and then use the 60 to make smaller adjustments. You make a good point about the drip set running out in a power failure. There are all sorts of bad things that can happen if you don’t keep a close eye on them, especially if you’re infusing into a human. That’s why pumps are preferred nowadays. I also thought a fuel shut off solenoid might work to prevent that. Again, really fun vid, my worlds collided in the most unlikely of ways from watching it:-) Subscribed and liked, best of luck to you.
@@Splash0921 Totally not something that you expect to see, he, haha. I'm glad you were amused.
I'm sure I could play with these to get an ideal flow rate / make it more adjustable, but I think a needle valve is likely more practical, if I choose to do this again... Still using the dripper to indicate flow, but not the thing to restrict flow.
I have some ideas... but as always, so many ideas, so little time and money, haha.
Not totally open, has front deck and short wind deflector/shield. Thinking an 8KW version w/ducting a like car. Heater outlet adapter to 4ea 2" hoses 2X for feet & 2x aimed chest height when seated. 8KW= 27,000 BTUH, even assuming a net of 20,000 BTUH that is equal to four of the (unsafe camp fuel powered) Coleman catalytic radiant heaters. The boat will have 6-8" of coaming so limited direct wind when seated. I've decided to start with a single 8KW heater with removable portable remote fuel tank. Anything will feel good on a freezing 20F/-7C morning. We have fishing as low as -10F/-23C but that was hopefully a onetime exception. Breaking ice in the dark in a small boat is indeed scary.
In almost all cases, the 5 and 8 kw units are in fact actually 5 kw units.... (4.3kw based on fuel consumption tests I have done) This is the case with all brands.
I am getting a heater this week from MaxSpeedgrods that is called an 8kw, and it appears as though it may be a 7kw... I will be testing to see.
You can get the heater end caps so that it has 4 small outlets, rather than the one large one. That is probably a good option.
If you are hoping to have some warm air blow on you, then this may be satisfactory, but the fact that there is no recirculation of the air, the heater is fighting a losing battle (always pulling in cool air and heating it) You will get quite warm air coming out of the heater till around -20 any colder than that and the outlet temp will really start to decrease. Obviously better than whatever the ambient temp is.... If your expectations are set too high, you will be disappointed.
-23C is no joke ! ...I just released a video of myself jet skiing at -10C, haha. I also have a silly video of myself in a inflatable suit, out in -18C with a 2kw heater.
Regarding those who comment on things they have not actually tried and tested for themselves - You cannot, never, not ever fix stupid. Thanks for giving the rest of us something we might try and test.
I don't necessarily thing that it is stupid, but some people are that, haha. I think it's easy to start imagining things happening in ways that they don't, in reality ... and once you imagine one part wrong, the rest goes off the rails.
As somebody who fixes these on a daily basis I can tell you that the soft fuel line causes more problems than anything else. It kinks, splits and creates air locks. I have to change fuel lines on people at least once a week and it always fixes the problems. They green stuff might work sometimes but in general it is the wrong stuff to use and will cause more problems than it solves.
I don't doubt that you see a lot of fuel line issues, especially if you deal with RV and vehicle installs. I have been a mechanic for 30+ years and see lots of fuel lines cracking, turning to goo or just getting so hard they are impossible to deal with.
I didn't once dispute that cheap fuel line was as good or better, I think I even recommended good fuel line. I know for a fact that not all soft fuel line is created equally, as I have a 1989 Yamaha watercraft and the fuel line is like new... I believe neoprene based ?
What I am arguing / showing in this video is that the pulse of the pump or pressure of the pump has no effect on the operation of the heater whatsoever... it is there to deliver the fuel, and doesn't have to do it in a forceful way to be effective.
Rigid line is great for some applications, but it's not better because it allows a stronger pulse to be delivered to the heater. When buying soft line, one problem is knowing what you are actually getting... You almost have to go to a trusted local supplier, or you could end up with crap.
@@loweredexpectations4927 Yeah I agree with that the atomiser doesn't need it to be squirted on to it dripping is fine. Yeah I think the stuff they send is for water pumps in fish tanks or is very similar to say the least.
Well
What to say!!!
Entertaining video
BUT NOTHING NEW
Google Dickson or refleks diesel drip feed heater
Burning oil is NOTHING new
One thing I would like to say
Your recommendations of safe CO levels is WAY WAY out
Please don't be advising people on this unless you have the correct information
Indoor co levels should be no more than 9ppm for 8 hours
Max of 35 ppm for no more than a hour and 100 max for 15 minutes
What he's missing is the bore size creates air locks from pressure bubbles. A problem I fix constantly
@@faffybubs9099 I have ordered 30 metres of fuel line to test... I plan on purposely introducing massie air pockets... However , what you are missing is that I didn't dispute anything about air. I didn't claim that rigid line isn't better, or that small diameter line isn't better. This wasn't an attack on rigid line....
What I am disputing is simple. Rigid line isn't better because it leads to a stronger pulse being delivered to the burn chamber. Softer line isn't bad because it is too soft, causing a weak pulse to be delivered to the burn chamber.
I can absolutely see how air (or vapours from cavitation) in the line can become an issue. If you have your pump close to the tank, and a giant bubble between the heater and pump, this bubble is a spring. The fuel delivery will likely be somewhat unpredictable (not enough at times, and too much at others - like after the heater has powered off)
I also suspect that this is much more of a problem in anything that moves around and in an RV or vehicle install with a LONG lines. Most people harping about this in blog posts, forums and on video comments, have an all-in-one heater with 2 feet of line, or 3 feet of line and the heater in their greenhouse.
I have 3 diesel heaters all on original green soft fuel lines never had an issue. Awesome video and information
It's not as horrible as some make it out to be... it certainly doesn't matter if it flexes and absorbs fuel pump pulses... Of course, quality fuel line is never a bad idea...
Interestingly when I installed one of these in a van, the booklet said replace filter AND fuel lines every six months?? I know the green fuel line isn't supposed to be great - but six months? Surely it will last longer than that
@@richardd8352 That's just typical corporation lawyers figuring out how to avoid any sort of warranty or insurance claim... because they know this isn't going to happen. So when you come back with any issue, they can say "did you change your fuel line?"
@@loweredexpectations4927 ah yes, makes sense. I'd still be curious to know how long on average that fuel line lasts. I suppose it varies. I can imagine in time it becomes brittle. No way six months though.
@@richardd8352 It tends to get brittle after a few years, but if it is stationary it's not at all an issue. If it is in a vehicle and supported properly, it is likely not an issue. If it is in something that is bouncing around (like a vehicle) and you have long runs of it that are not supported, it may crank at the locations where it is supported, or leak around fittings.
Good information, This shows if the fuel pump fails you can always hook up in emergencies. The difference between using a drip feed for patients and as an oil dripper is that not many hospitals go down to zero degrees and then warm up during the day. Whatever they drip into you is more or less at a very constant temperature so the viscosity of the liquid will remain the same and same drip rate. A light bulb could replace the pump as a resistor.
Thanks for the comment !
Yes, hospitals, and vet clinics, where I got my IV, all use pumps to control and monitor the flow, as well. The adjuster is there for emergency situations... Nurses and vet techs are trained to count out drips if necessary, but it never really gets used.
You are the second or third person to suggest the light bulb... I was curious if this would work, so I gave it a try. As I suspected, the ECU is too smart. It recognizes the bulb as a dead short and won't work. You would need to check the resistance of the pump and then match that resistance for it to work 👍 maybe a few bulbs or a LED.
the lower the wattage the higher the resistance so a light bulb that uses the equivalent watts of the pump should work.@@loweredexpectations4927
I agree with you a little . If you have more line it's easyer to push the fuel and air threw the smaller line , Than the bigger line. I have been witnes to this my self
Absolutely . A smaller diameter line, with the same fuel volume, means higher velocity fuel (or air) and the smaller cross section means air is less likely to get trapped.
With very long runs of fuel line, I can see how trapped air could become a problem, I have purchased 30 meters of fuel line and will be testing this.
However, the argument is that the rigid line is batter because it is rigid. The claim is that the soft fuel line absorbs power / pressure from the pump and causes running issues. Rigid line can be better in many ways, but not for this reason.
I love it when you can prove everyone wrong! Great job! For years now everyone has been going purely on myth. lol Glad I saw this video. I was just about to get into the van life setup and you just gave me more knowledge than 99% of the videos I've watched. Honestly this videos deserves the few millions those other misleading info videos have. This needs to be corrected.
Thanks for the kind comment !
People sometimes like to create stories / problems that are easy to fix. Everyone needs a feeling of accomplishment.
To be clear, I'm not saying that rigid line isn't a good idea.... Especially on a vehicle or RV .... The stuff that comes with these heaters is typically pretty low quality and will get brittle over time.
"Soft line won't effect the operation of the heater because it is soft." is the overall message here, haha. It's always a good idea to use quality line.
Well that was an eye opener. I fell for the idea too, without ever seriously thinking about the "pressure", but now you point it out, it's self evident you are right. Received wisdom is always worth questioning.
Thanks for the comment. Sorry for the delay. It is surprising how emotional some people get about this topic.
I do think that rigid fuel line has its place, and I never said it was bad. All I'm pointing out in this video is that the pump is there to provide the correct dose of fuel and that soft line will not affect the performance.
What we're saying is the solenoid pump is ideal to start with. I thought the main issue with the crappy fuel line was that it perishes after a couple of years and you end up with diesel everywhere.
Thanks for the comment. I don't think there is any evidence supporting the idea the pump is ideal for starting. My heater started a bunch of times with 3 -4 drops of fuel.
A decent fuel line is much better, and rigid fuel line is good in many applications. I'm just saying that it's not better because the rigidity makes the pressure higher.
Interesting. I'm glad you did this. There's a lot of people saying things about diesel heaters that just aren't true and their problems more the result of incorrect adjustment and installation. I wonder if you could use a carb jet to do the metering, with the right size jet you might get the correct number of drips.
Yes... issues with these heaters is almost always due to some installation error limiting exhaust or inlet flow. They are very sensitive to that.
You could find the right size jet, however, some adjustability would be nice. You could use the jet for max flow that was something reasonable and then have the adjuster to lower it from there.
A few have suggested a screw needle valve. I think that would probably work really well.
I just thought the kinda solid hose was to reduce bubble building up. I love the green (orange) hose because it is easier, quicker and less joints to install. I still don't understand why there is no better pump yet invented to replace those annoying pumps. Your test was confirming some of my thoughts about the subject, thank you for this.
The rigid line has it's place, but it's not a "must have" like many claim. There are a few companies that make a siglent pump called a Peristaltic pump... David McLuckie tests one... I believe.
I got impatient with the pump priming after I took the heater apart to clean it. I primed the line manually with a plastic mustard bottle, just letting the fuel flow into the line with no pressure. After a bit, when the line itself should have been filled, it still kept taking more. Then I had an oh-oh moment and stopped. I started it up anyway with some apprehension. Shut it down right away because it was smoking pretty good. So I knew it was just a straight shot into the burner. I was thinking my pump was shot because of the extremely tiny amount of fuel coming out. Thanks for your videos, they clear up a lot of things about these heaters. No there isn't any pressure in the line. In fact I'm surprised that the pump keeps up with the burn. Great videos.
LOL.... Awesome story, thanks for sharing.
Even tho the pump states the volume on the side of it, it was interesting for me to see that it took 3 pulses of the pump to make one drip of diesel... goes to show how little they really flow.
These heaters are engineered incredibly well and it's shocking they work as well as they do, especially for the price !
Well said Joel I've been having a Facebook argument this week about the heaters running on a wicking method and not under pressure and this puts it all to bed for me..🙂
Haha... best to avoid those arguments, but I'm glad this helps. Fuel needs to make it to the heater (at the right volume). Period.
Having nylon solid line creates a presurized line which might have an increase on combustion. If you run a direct 2 mm solid fuel line to the combustion chamber It won't drip. Might have a very small effect on efficiency and carbon build up.
Thanks for the comment.
This is what some people claim, but you can't have pressure if there isn't any restriction. This fuel line is like a garden hose. If you hold your thumb over the end, there is pressure and it sprays. However, where the fuel flows into the chamber, there is no thumb / no restriction, so no pressure.
The fuel just drools in on to the wick. I recently released a video called "Diesel Heaters - Orientation Deep Dive - Heater Mounting Explained" Where I used an inspection camera and a cut open chamber to show this in some detail.
Here is a link to that video. ua-cam.com/video/8HAHE9qmrfI/v-deo.html
@@loweredexpectations4927 I wouldn't say it has no pressure, I would say very little. I totally agree with you. I don't think it really matters. Both fuel lines should work sufficient.
@@wyattbristol738 👍 I suppose when you say "pressure" it depends on what part of the system you are talking about, and what the layout of your system is.
There is pressure at the pump because the resistance of the fuel. This resistance is caused by the mass of the fuel, as well as the resistance to flow from friction and gravity (depending if your pump is lower than the heater).
When I say there is no pressure, I am referring to where the fuel enters the chamber, into the glow plug mesh. In a fuel injection system you may have 60 psi in the line and at the injector, because of the restriction caused by the injector. In these heaters, the metal fuel line is a smaller diameter than the part it exits into. You can call this a "drop in pressure" from almost nothing to even closer to nothing.
The burn starts in the glow plug area, but minutes after you start your heater, the plug shuts off, and all of the burn occurs in the primary burn area (no burning happens in the glow plug area). Fuel makes 2 90º turns before drooling onto the wick material, where it ignites.
I would choose to use some hard line in some installs and soft in others. Just because hard line sometimes hales more sense. The point I was trying to make is that, the force of the fuel being injected into the heater has no effect on heater performance or service intervals.
Good video demonstration....... Fuel line preference doesn't matter as long as it's routed correctly with reasonable room to flex when pump pulses.......
This is a heater...... Not an engine folks.
Yeah... not an engine. As long as the fuel gets there, it doesn't matter how much pressure it is under. These are basically fancy candles that have fuel delivered to the wick.
What you have said makes sense. As far as fuel pressurisation. But in my opinion, you should still change your line if you want. if you want it to last for a long period of time. as soft pipe may deteriorate within about 12 to 18 months. I would also guess UV light may have. some Affect. on Deterioration of pipes if open to light in some cases.
Absolutely ... There are many reasons to change to change to a rigid line, or even just a good quality line. I was simply disputing this one statement.
Rigid line, in many cases, especially for longer runs, makes more sense.
By varying the hight of the fuel supply, you could adjust the fuel pressure
This is true... If you depended 100% of the height, you would have to constantly raise the fuel tank to keep the fuel flowing.
That gives me an insane idea for mounting the tank on a balance beam and using the decreasing mass of fuel to raise the tank and control the fuel flow....🤣 what a nightmare that would be.
This is a GREAT shop heater option. But you need to put a temperature sensor-relay with a normally closed fluid selonoid in line with the fuel to shut the fuel off if the temps dropped below a set point. You would need a bypass to start it or a lighter to heat the probe but it would detect a flame out or dead cooling fan and kill the diesel
I was having the same thought about a normally-closed solenoid as a safety mechanism. Could add a push button override for starting like when lighting a pilot light on gas appliances until the flame sensor is hot enough.
Yeah... If you were doing this as your permanent setup, you would certainly want to make sure that you had some safeties in place.
It would also be advisable to have a overheat protection where it closed the valve if it gets too hot.
Even if it switches back on after it cools. My old heater cuts the fuel flow in half when it reaches 210 and goes back to normal when it reaches 208.
If you wanted to be really clever, you could have a set of valves and inline restrictors that allow a preset fuel flow. For start up you could have one that operates between room temp and 60, then two on until 210 and one closes after 210 ... It could be so much fun, haha.
To stop the first one (room temp to 60C) from coming on in the event of a flame out it could either be on one minute timer, or ... I forget what it's called ... The opposite of a latching relay, maybe. It stays energized till you cut power, but requires power and ground to re energize, so you'd have to switch it on for start up.
Don't listen to others. If they make references to other youtubers, that means they them self's have no clear understanding...
Well done and very good practical example of a theoretical "discussion".
If nothing else, these comments drive me to make videos that educate others.... and I have changed a few people's minds... that's always good.
That is MORE than good ! Well done.
Little question: Changing the diameter of the fuelline but keeping the same pump, will that influence the fuel consumption ?
Thank you
Bernie
@@loweredexpectations4927
Exactly. Simply put your fuel tank above your heater for a Net Positive Suction Head (NPSH) and you won't smoke on startup or have fuel delivery issues.
Indeed !
You are probably rewalking the path of the original inventor of the diesel heater. I salute you for doing all these experiments. I guess at the end of your experiments, you will probably arrive at the same conclusion that a pump is needed 😅 and somehow pump and fan speeds are optimized by the ECU to give the cleanest burn. The pump also pumps up the fuel if you happen to install the fuel tank below/beside the heater. It also stops the fuel from leaking out after the heater stops working, as you described.
Haha... I love experimenting 🤪
I would never dispute that a pump is ... needed, or at least in all practical terms, is needed. This test was simply to prove that fuel delivery does not require any forceful injection or pulses. As long as the fuel makes it's way to the heater, in the correct quantity, it's going to work just fine.
Many have made the argument (including one very popular heater tuber) that soft line expands during pump pulses. This expansion weakens the injection of the fuel and causes problems. I'm not sure if these claims were made out of boredom, or just because the guy is a good storyteller, but this myth has spread all over the internet, haha.
What I'm doing in this video is pure silly... other than in an emergency situation where your pump died and you were going to freeze to death, this has no practical application.... but it's still fun.
Yes I heard about this debate. If your argument is about whether or not a pump is needed in an emergency situation, you're right. Your experiment proves so. You can drip feed it without a pump.
On the other hand, if your argument is about whether or not the original flexible large bore fuel pipe supplied with the heater expends (and therefore its consequences) when the pump ticks, that's a totally separate argument, because as much as you'd like to disagree, that famous/stupid 😂 ytber is correct, I'm afraid. Have a look at John McK 47's Part 11 - Fuel Delivery video. @@loweredexpectations4927
You could also wire up a relay that opens the drip line when the unit turns on and 12v is applied to it, that way when it powers off the fuel line shuts
That could work. Thanks for the comment.
Maybe a solenoid valve connected to the pump lines with a capacitor? It would keep the line open when the pump would be running and make some resistance to keep the error codes away. Or if that doesn't work (not enough pixies per pump cycle to keep the solenoid open until next pump cycle) then you could just load capacitor or trigger timing circuit with it and use separate mosfet to open the solenoid based on that. Anyhow you can both mimic the pump to prevent error code and only give diesel when pump would be running.
@@CheapskateProjects ya, and you could use the connection that the original pump used to tap into the 12v power.
@@CheapskateProjects For sure. WIth a little circuitry and trickery, it's absolutely doable.
i’m a nurse and i guarantee if you put a “dial a flow” restrictor on their you would have much easier time
That would be WAY better. Thanks. I have since installed a needle type valve and use the dripper to monitor.
This is just for testing / curiosity sake, as it is not very safe, but it works a lot better.
Very nice test, could be used in an emergency situation. IV Drip costs nearly next to nothing (in case the backup diesel/fuel pump is also faulty).
For sure... it would be handy to have a CO meter as well, but it could get you out of a real pickle if you had to wait 3-4 days, or weeks for a new fuel pump to arrive.
OK now put the drip below the heater as you can the pump. Your drip. Won't work but the pump does as it builds up presure to beat gravety. Hence presure. Mind you you will get this presure no matter what pipe you use soft or hard. Mind you I use the hard pipe every time.
So many people seem to have gotten stuck on the word pressure... I thought I was clear about what this video was about.
As you say, soft of hard line doesn't matter.
What I'm debunking is "if you're not using rigid line you'll lose pressure". The line has no realistic effect on the pressure because the pressure is so low. Anything that has mass has pressure, so when I say "no pressure" I don't literally mean no pressure.
That being said. People overlook my setup. It is not actually being fed the pressure of gravity, though I would forgive anyone for thinking this. It would only be fed gravity pressure if there was no restrictor valve, and the restriction was the heater. Meaning, the fuel on the bottom side of the restrictor is at a much lower pressure than on top of the restrictor. If the valve was closed, the pressure in the line would actually be negative.... a vacuum gauge would measure - and would increase as fuel was allowed to flow.
@@loweredexpectations4927 of course it is using gravity. Even after the drip. It still need gravity.
@@petethewrist Hmmmm .... perhaps I need to explain myself better.
The fuel between the container and the chamber has a certain pressure. If you block the lone at the chamber, you can calculate the pressure based on the mass of diesel and the height. This would be the max pressure of gravity on this system.
However, the line is not blocked at the chamber, and the opening at the chamber is completely free flow. The restriction in the fuel line is where the majority of the pressure is being exerted. Hopefully we can agree on this much.
Now... if the fuel line is hanging in mid air, and fuel is coming out the end of it in drips, what is the pressure of these drips ? This is what is happening, only it doesn't even come out in drips, it comes out as capillary action, with the fuel sticking to the walls of the glow plug entrance.
So... If there is a pressure, and I'm not convinced that you can call it that, as the fuel is in free fall with no restriction, how would this pressure be measured ? Pressure requires a restriction and the only restriction is the friction of the fuel due to its own viscosity and the surface of the metal.
Does this make sense ?
@@loweredexpectations4927 gravity has the same force on any object regardless of size. The point is is that there is pressure. Enough to feed the thing. Good video over all.
@@petethewrist Yes, gravity has the same force, but that force doesn't always cause pressure, and the more there is if an object the more it weighs.
Pressure is the resistance of force. Gravity has the same force on air molecules at the top and bottom of a mountain (essentially) but the pressure is different. This is the same thing as our gravity feed. What causes the pressure at the bottom of the mountain, is the molecules stacked on top of the ones at the bottom.
What causes the pressure in the gravity feed system, is the column of fuel on top, all of it being forced down by gravity, in a sealed / contained system. Just like you can measure pressure in inches of mercury, you can measure inches of diesel, or water, or orange juice haha.
When there is about 29 inches of mercury in a tube, with the top capped off but the bottom open, the force of gravity on the mercury is enough to cause an almost perfect vacuum where the tube is capped off, and the mercury will not fall out of the tube. While gravity applies the same force on all of the mercury, the pressure is not the same for all of the mercury.
I asked BARD, that has disclaimer at bottom, about correctness ;)
In a Chinese diesel heater, the fuel pump actually does both pump and meter the fuel.
Pumping: The pump delivers fuel from the tank to the heater unit against gravity and any resistance in the fuel lines. This ensures a steady flow of fuel for proper combustion.
Metering: The pump also regulates the amount of fuel delivered based on the heater's operating requirements. This ensures efficient fuel usage and prevents flooding or starvation of the burner.
As for fuel tank placement, it's not strictly necessary for the tank to be higher than the heater unit. Most Chinese diesel heaters can self-prime the fuel line as long as the tank is within a reasonable distance (typically less than 2 meters). However, there are some advantages to having the tank higher:
Gravity assist: With a higher tank, gravity can help push the fuel to the pump, reducing its workload and potentially extending its lifespan.
Reduced risk of air bubbles: Air bubbles in the fuel line can disrupt combustion and cause starting problems. A higher tank allows air bubbles to rise in the tank before reaching the pump, minimizing this risk.
Easier installation: In some cases, having the tank higher can make it easier to install and access for maintenance.
Ultimately, the decision of whether to locate the tank above or below the heater depends on your specific installation and preferences. Consult the manufacturer's instructions for your specific heater model for specific recommendations and limitations.
Here are some additional points to consider:
Pump location: Regardless of tank placement, ensure the pump is installed below the fuel pipe connection point on the heater to avoid air pockets.
Fuel line length: Ideally, keep the fuel line as short as possible to minimize pressure loss and improve pump efficiency.
Fuel filters: Use proper fuel filters to prevent contaminants from entering the pump and damaging it.
By following these recommendations, you can ensure your Chinese diesel heater's fuel pump operates efficiently and reliably for optimal performance.
Thanks for the detailed comment. I don't understand your opening statement. What is "BARD"
My argument isn't' that the dosing pump doesn't meter and pump. My argument is that the pressure of the pumping has no effect whatsoever on the performance of the heater, other than the ability of the fuel to make it to the burn chamber, in the correct volume.
Yes... I always recommend having the tank above the pump and heater of possible. It just makes sense to use gravity to help prime the pump and feed the heater.
They were doing so well until the end 🤣 . There is no such thing as pressure loss and the efficiency doesn't matter at all. I just ordered 30 Meters of fuel line... We will see if it matters. Of course, people will still say it matters, haha regardless. At 30 M, it may actually take a few seconds for the fuel to enter the chamber, but once it is primed and running, my predictions are that it will be fine.
Strange, I'd replied to this with link to BARD, AI bard.google.com/chat
I said some stuff, that I do not feel like writing again.
I do think the more pliable hose can matter. That each pulse would expand or contract, depending on push or pull side. Over some long distance it could be enough to lose much pressure. I'd agree with fellow about tank would be best elevated, some, higher than unit. @@loweredexpectations4927
Unfortunately even if you remove the cap on the holding tank, a gravity feed will always slow down as back pressure drops from consumption. Here's the solution. Install a valve on the bottom of the Holding tank. Run a tube from that valve down to an oil filter,then from the filter run another tube to a mini float valve like in your toilet. Install that float valve in a small Tupperware container. Install another valve on the bottom of the container. Than your transparent feed line to the heater so you can see the flow rate. Adjust the rate via the valve on the Tupperware container/carburetor. Open the valve completely on the holding tank. The level in the carb will level out and back pressure will remain the same until the tank runs out.
Note:- if you install the cover on the holding tank and carburetor,you must drill a small hole on both so to allow air to get in. If not a vacuum pressure with occurs and the drip will stop.
I see you have thought this through extensively ! Well done. Basically a toilet tank type reservoir, or carburetor float bowl scaled up with a sepparet fuel tank ... I like it.
That being said, the amount the pressure drops over time is very little, unless the tank is very tall, and the result is just a slightly leaner AFR when you get close to running out. If this was a permanent set up, then what you are suggesting would be ideal 👍
Very interesting.
Now... can i just add that "we" who want to heat our garages or basement are, in effect extrapolating from TRUCK/camping car heater.
Wabasto designed this so that a trucker could just "flip a switch", set the level, and warm up his cabin and sleep the night.
Nonetheless. 10/10 from me for proving something relevant. Thanks
Absolutely. This is not a practical way to run your heater, especially in a vehicle... but anywhere.
This was just an experiment. I recently ran the same heater without any ECU at all.
Joel, love your channel. However, I think you may have misunderstood the issue, likely due to the commenters using the wrong terminology.
The concern with flexible fuel line is not fuel pressure in the automotive sense, but rather the force of the pulse of fuel that is injected into the pre-burn chamber.
Flexible fuel line absorbs or deadens some of the initial pulse from the solenoid, resulting in a weak (but steadier) dribble of fuel onto or under the glow plug screen.
Solid nylon line has less give and results in a more forceful (but shorter duration) injection of fuel into the pre-burn chamber, resulting in a wider dispersal of fuel across the screen and onto the glow plug itself. This assists in quicker ignition of the fuel on startup, which leads to less 'startup soot' (from the initial dribble of fuel getting cooked by the glow plug instead of immediately igniting). This may also assist in better/quicker atomization while the heater is running.
The total amount of fuel injected is ultimately the same, but the 'spray pattern' (or lack thereof) is not. Somewhat similar to if you had a remotely mounted fuel injector on your car, with a rubber hose running from it to your cylinder - it would still meter the correct amount of fuel (ignoring timing) but fail to disperse it in an easily ignitable way.
John McK, one of the original diesel heater youtubers, set up a demonstration of the difference in this video, at about 18 minutes in: ua-cam.com/video/jCZhjGyR3bo/v-deo.html
I appreciate your comment and your reasonable, polite and thorough way of explaining yourself. I will respectfully try to explain why this is not the case, and I hope not to offend you.
I didn't name anyone in my video, but he is one of the people who gets this wrong. 13 minutes in he starts to explain how in your house you have anti knock or anti water hammer devices. He goes on to say this is the last thing you want in your heater.
I get how this can be convincing... but if you Google search "dosing pump damper" you will see that he is very wrong. Many of the high end heaters come with dampers to smoothen out the pulses, doing exactly what a soft fuel line would do.
While the preburn chamber theory may seem logical, it makes a few incorrect assumptions. Diesel makes soot when it doesn't have enough oxygen to burn completely and has nothing to do with how quickly or slowly it starts to burn.
As the heater is running, there is no flame or burning inside the glow plug airea, and it is doused in diesel the entire time your heater is running. The glow plug turns on the cool down cycle go burn this away and prepare for the next start up. This process can often take several seconds as the mesh and plug are soaked. (I know because I have shut the heater down without using the cool down cycle)
I have nothing against anyone for believing this, but the fact that they make dampers, and most high end heaters have dampers, should be all you need to know.
@@loweredexpectations4927 Absolutely no offense taken, if I am wrong, I am wrong, and I appreciate being bluntly told so!
You make a great point about the dosing damper. My assumption has been that those are a compromise the manufacturers make to try to mitigate a much more customer-facing and immediately apparent complaint with diesel heaters (pump ticking) at the sacrifice of slightly shorter maintenance intervals or longer-term poor running, which a customer may not notice or care about. However, you could very well be right and it's simply that the manufacturers consider it a complete non-issue. Regardless, it does demonstrate that the lower impulse of the fuel is not a huge or critical issue, if it is even an issue at all.
The soot issue I mentioned, I should have explained better, but stupidly the best word I could think of in the moment was 'cooked'. I was essentially trying to describe a rich condition - unignited fuel building up in the heater with no flame, and once the heater does manage to light, fuel air ratio being way off, resulting in soot, smoke, and the heater moaning/vibrating violently as the extra unmetered fuel combusts in an uncontrolled manner, until the heater manages to burn off all the excess.
Similar to what happens when voltage drop is too much for the glow plug and it's just not hot enough to quickly ignite the fuel coming in - you can either up the voltage, or bring the fuel in closer contact with the glow plug. I do agree that John McK gets his share of things wrong (this test procedure for measuring exhaust decibels with/without muffler, for instance), however his test does show that the nylon line would very likely cause direct contact of the fuel onto the glow plug, while the flexible line would not.
I agree there is no flame in the glow plug area while running and glow plug is off, and I'm definitely unsure if higher fuel impulse would have any affect here. I do think it would result in better atomization, as the fuel would be getting shot into the airstream created by the ignition air inlet hole instead of dribbling down the side of the ignition chamber. However, from the experience you describe, it's clear that the fuel is getting kicked up all over the ignition chamber anyway, possibly due to the turbulence of the inlet air or backblast from the combustion event. Or, possibly, the type of line you use (or short length) allows sufficient impulse to be transmitted.
That may be an interesting and relatively easy video idea, if you're not tired of this topic already - trying out different lines and seeing if you can replicate the results John McK got. It's very possible that the flexible, unidentified line he used was just way too soft, and the green weedwacker fuel line that diesel heaters come with is stiff enough that it's not an issue. That would neatly explain all the divergent results and opinions on the topic - impulse might matter, but only in edge cases (unusually flexible or long line, weak fuel pump, large head, etc.) will impulse become so low as to make any sort of difference. Anyway, just a thought.
The chief advantage of the hard nylon line is its imperviousness to degradation from prolonged exposure to diesel fuel containing biodiesel and other lubricity additives. The ASTM standard for fuel tubing rated for biodiesel blends is not met by most clear flexible fuel hoses.
@@wallacegrommet9343 Yes, in many cases the nylon fuel line is better, just not for the reasons stated by many.
@@wallacegrommet9343 Agreed, that is the most important advantage, as it is a safety issue. One big caveat though is that with the cheap diesel heaters, the little bits of rubber hose they provide to link the nylon tube to the fittings are absolute garbage. I've consistently had them start cracking within a year of having regular diesel in them on multiple heaters. I now consider them a 100% no-question must-replace with actual name brand fuel hose from a parts store.
Well done mate. Keep up the good work!
Thanks!
When I was about 13, I took my scout patrol on an overnight camp to a bush hut. The hut had an old cast iron pot belly fire but the firewood was mostly very wet so we couldn't keep the fire going. There was some diesel for the power generator so I put a tiny hole in the bottom of a spaghetti can, filled the can with diesel, and suspended it quite high over the fire. The fuel splashed down onto the cast iron and burned well enough for the pot belly to glow red hot. I don't know how I knew how to do that and I don't know how I've reached age 65.
LOL... I love this story. Good on ya for making stuff work when it needed to work.
What a lot of folks don't seem to understand is by the nature of how the "pump" works, it can't generate any meaningful pressure. It's a "metering pump" it's designed to allow in a specific amount of fuel, which is what each 'tic' is. It's a piezoelectric pump that uses a diaphragm to "pump" an expected amount of fuel into the combustion chamber. That's why you're playing with pulse numbers and the pump doesn't whine like a regular pressurized fuel pump that they're used to.
The same principle is used on many larger small engines to supply fuel to the carb bowl, except where it's not piezo electric but powered by vacuum or exhaust pulses. Any fuel pressure is generated by gravity, the 'pump' is only there to make sure the bowl fills under high fuel demand and in the case of the heater, meters the amount of fuel to keep the mixture from running too lean or too rich because there isn't any carburetor to meter the fuel for the heater.
Also, your cat is adorable and confirms my suspicions that orange cats and thinking clearly is not their forte. Poor lil guy 😂
Yes... this exactly. They even call them "dosing pumps" to try to clue us in, haha.
Haha... yes, Quasar is adorable, and foolish. He likes a LOT of attention and that often gets in the way if him thinking strait.
I ran rigid fuel line for protection from rupture. My line runs through unfinished walls and who knows what kind of dumb stuff might be flying through the air. Two days ago, I launched a wheel hub out of my shop press which made for an exciting 2 seconds!
With my recent experience with IVs (funny how this follows the last line so naturally), that little wheel thingamajig is used to stop fluid flow, and not to meter it. They have monitors that meter the dose rates. Maybe you should use that gadget you used to stop the flow, or as another poster said, a needle valve - something with finer adjustment.
Good luck. We're all counting on you.
Haha... stay away from hospitals... unless you really need a hospital.... then, you better got to the hospital !
I agree. Rigid line is absolutely better in many ways. It has a lot of practical uses. No need to make up stories about how soft line absorbs pulses form the pump...
I thought about editing that part out of the video where I commented on the flow valve, haha. My GF (X) is a Vet Tech and that's where I got the IV from. I'm aware they use pumps to control the dose. These valves are actually a emergency pack up and nurses / techs are trained to count out the drips if the machine fails. The drip tube is an indicator so they can see that it's working at a glance.... Like the balls in old gas pumps, haha.... what ever happened to those !!
A needle valve would be way better... Way easier to control !
@@loweredexpectations4927 I am a former EMT and my son is a current nurse tech and nursing student. We all learn how to calculate IV rates using the roller lock and drip chamber. Most ambulances don't have IV pumps, all of their IV's are done with straight drip infusion sets. You don't need a needle valve, that roller valve and drip chamber will be more precise than you'll ever need.
The IV infusion set will also tell you how many drops per mL, 10, 15 and 60 are pretty standard. Knowing that info, the drops per minute and the amount of fuel you have in the tank, you can easily calculate how long the fuel will last.
I didn't see anywhere in the video, where you adjusted the fan speed with the controller. It occured to me, you could control fan speed to lean, or enrichen the flame. To take it one step further, install a rheostat, to fine tune fan speed, for optimal burn
@@bernswonger57 Yes, that is true... You'd want to make sure that everything settles for a few minutes before and after making changes... They take time to settle as the fuel doesn't burn immediately when entering the heater.
I have a few follow up videos to this one where I try to run the heater without an ecu. If you haven't seen them you may be interested.
i have seen the drip method used a lot in old diesel oil/waste oil conversions for wood stoves. so not a huge surprise that it works well. always nice to find other ways to get the same thing to work. it would be fun to fabricate a new external housing for the burner that allowed it to be used as a water heater. pumping water over the housing instead of air. i haven't set mine up yet but i like the ideas of sending the exhaust through a radiator before it goes outside to extract more heat from it.
Yeah... the problem / confusion is that people hear "diesel" and they think "diesel engine" ... People make a lot of assumptions....
Videos and posts saying "everything you need to know about X" or "You need to know these 5 heater hacks". "What they aren't telling you about your heater" .... those sort of videos do really well.... so a LOT of people who know nothing about these heaters do a quick google search and make one of these sensationalized videos, just for the views.
"it would be fun to fabricate a new external housing for the burner that allowed it to be used as a water heater." I have been strongly considering this. I also want to do the radiator exhaust thing...
@@loweredexpectations4927I saw a British video on the heater where they put the exhaust thru a European wall radiator. Of course it needed a drain to drain the water vapor from the exhaust
@@SR-gt350 I've been wanting to do this with a modern hydronic heater / heat exchanger for a year now... but can't justify the cost.... and with the waste oil testing I was doing, anything I used would have been clogged, haha.
@@loweredexpectations4927 ya, the way you exhausted it onto the garage would recover 100% heat as long as you're OK with water vapor and adjusting for CO as well have CO detectors.
@@SR-gt350 Venting into my garage is not a long term solution, heh... Merely for testing. I feel like regardless of how careful you are, this is not a good idea is you are depending on it for heat.
There are many fun and creative ways to capture heat from the exhaust, and even of you lose a few percent outside, it's worth it to avoid the health risks. Death takes care of all of your health problems, unfortunately there are a lot of other hazards from exhaust gasses, haha.
At last someone who has debunked that Australian guys claims. I've had my 2kW heater running in my van for the last 4 years with Tygon soft fuel line with no issues. the line even runs up and down and any air bubbles formed by the action of the pump just run along the line and don't stop it working at all. I keep telling people that the way the pump works, if it has fuel to pump in on its inlet side, it will pump it out on the outlet side, and then whatever goes in one end of the fuel line, will have to come out the other end (unless there's a break in it along its length) so the type or bore size of fuel line makes no difference, once the line is full. The fact that the manufacturers sell dampers for the fuel line makes their arguments worthless.
Yes... somehow people just ignore it when I ask them about the dampers.... I have some upcoming tests that you may enjoy ... I ordered 30 metres of soft aliexpress fuel line, haha.
Bubbles have never been an issue for me either... as long as there's not a huge air pocket, you don't even notice bubbles. These bubbles occur in rigid line and act as dampers.... so that's another way this idea is disproved.
Regardless of any tests that I do, many people get caught up on these ideas... like they have a romantic relationship with them. People like solving problems, and it's really really easy to solve a problem that doesn't exist ... If you take that away from someone, you are robbing them of their success 🤷♂️ ... still... the truth is better.
Anybody that thinks a pump is needed have never had to heat there house with a "fuel oil stove". Gravity works just fine..... The fuel pump is for convenience when you can not have the fuel above the burner and to stop the fuel when you shut it down.. Thx for sharing......
Yes, this is true... The pump is there as a means of controlling fuel. Both volume and a way to shut it off if it flames out or gets too hot.👍
Pretty neat experiment. This is the first time that I have ever seen a diesel anything run off of an IV.
Next up... can it run without an ECU ? ...
I was wondering if it would run with just the fan and glow plug myself.@@loweredexpectations4927
You absolutely can!
The easiest way would be as simple as using PWM motor speed controllers to control fan motor speed and glow plug temp. You can use a handheld tachometer and a laser pyrometer to figure out the proper settings for your motor speed and glow plug temp. And then just use the IV drip chamber for fuel. Like you said, you'd obviously never want to run it this way unattended, but as a proof of concept, it would work just fine.
Just make sure you buy PWM controllers with a high enough amperage rating to handle the current draw of the glow plug and fan motor. I don't recall the exact numbers, do you'd want to verify it before buying parts, but I believe the glow plug draws about 6-10 amps, and the fan draws around 2-3. You can get controllers rated in those current ranges for about $5 and $10, respectively, so you'd be about $15 all in. You could save a few bucks just by manually switching the power to the glow plug. But running it at full power will probably reduce the life of the glow plug.
If you wanted to add some other features like heat exchanger temp monitoring, that would also be pretty easy to do with a simple thermocouple, as you've done in the past.
Removing the fuel pump and using gravity only by-passes the safety feature of the unit. When the fuel pump is used and the power to the controller is interrupted the fuel pump stops working thus cutting off fuel and preventing burnout. With a gravity fed system, when power is cut from the controller, the controller shuts off and fan is stopped working yet fuel will continue to feed the unit, cause it to overheat and potentially cause a fire. If you are going to gravity feed you need to a way to also cut the fuel when the power goes out.
Thanks for the comment.
I believe I pointed these things out in my video. This is not safe for a few reasons.
There are ways that you could make this safe, but I probably won't do those things as this was just for an experiment.
No comments abut the cat! You can see in the slow mo, the eyes meet the landing spot and the amount of push required from the back legs. Four legged landing! Back to the heater...
Haha... Yeah... he's a clumsy cat... but he's a cat. He bounced off the ladder on the way down, so that didn't help much, but he did cat things.
That’s hilarious. I have told my wife before about a cat that looks just like one of ours on your channel. Now, he’s shown that they act alike also. Pluto can fall off a 6” wide railing!… and catch himself😂
@@billmoore5177 HAHAH... Gotta love cats !
Great advice and video. Many thanks for sharing the knowledge. There will always be the so-called self proclaimed "I know better professionals) speculators and armchair nothing to do advisors. Well there is always something to be learned from others. My guess is tat most and the majority of the critics know no better as the chances are they have never do a thought testing method, or wouldn't know were to begin. Thanks for sharing. I'm sure if it works for you, then it works for others. They just need to give it a try.
There are a lot of good reasons to be confused about how things and physics works. We all talk in general terms with an understanding of the idea behind the message... This is a much more efficient way to communicate.
It can also lead to people clinging onto a specific word or phrase and creating a situation that doesn't match reality. These ideas are often much more fun / romantic to believe than the truth.
Every man in his shop likes to feel like he's making things better.... and if you can get the feeling of making things better by adding $16 of fuel like that's awesome... Then some prick on the internet comes along and tries to take that away from you. Haha... Humans are tender beings, even the tough ones... I'm no excepting and my ego and ignorance can and has gotten in the way. I try to acknowledge it and move on.
🤟
You could see about adding a electric valve in place of the pump. That way it shuts off with the heater.
Yes, this work work... It's not 100% ideal, as the heater goes through a cool down cycle that takes a few minutes. During this time the fuel would still be flowing.
An electric valve that was connected to a heat sensor, that turned off at 80C would reduce flooding the chamber with extra fuel.
I'm at the hospital a lot and that contraption isn't used to regulate the medication going into you. It is used to get the air out of the line. Unless that line is hooked up to a pump, that does regulate the amount of medication going into you, your heart is the pump that regulates the flow of the medication. But normally they do that with like a saline solution or something mild. Every time they pump a different medication into me, they always will tell me it will be over the course of an hour for this med. Or 2 hours for this med or only maybe 10 minutes for this one. But they always have one of those contraptions hooked before the line goes in to the pump to get the majority of the air out.
Yeah... I probably should have corrected that. My X is a vet tech, that's where I got the IV drips from.... They always use a pump for accurate delivery these days.
I don't think that's correct about the air though .... The dlrip is used to monitor the drip so they can glance at it and see if it is working. It is also used in an emergency to count out drips per minute. The regulator valve is used to set the flow in an emergency, or if you don't have one of those fancy machines.
Just saying, that is absolutely not true, the roller clamp is not designed to only get the air out of the line, it is designed to control your flow rate of the fluid or medication going into you. You use the clamp and you open it wide when you're flushing the line of any air, then it's dialed to the MANUAL rate that the patient needs. If you are put on a pump, then the dial is usually wide open so the pump doesn't throw an obstruction code which will happen if it's not able to pull the amount of fluid that is dialed into the actual pump. Just so you know, that's what that does and here is an article so you can see if you don't believe. Just some knowledge :)
@@roberthutson2023 Does the user manual mention anything about temperature change effecting drip rate of your diesel 🤣🤣
@@loweredexpectations4927 🤣🤣🤣 Probably not since its not meant for that lmfao hahahaha but your experiment was amazing thank you for that
@@roberthutson2023 👍
Nice. I just saw a guy do this the other day- "hotwire your diesel heater" or something like that.
Haha... As someone has already posted. The next step is to run it without any ECU at all. Full manual.
@@loweredexpectations4927 Do it! A couple cheap PWM controllers for the fan and glow plug. The glow plug is set to 85w default, but people have said it will run fine at 40 watts. Yeah, I thought it was BS when I first saw it.
It's cool that now we know that the fuel "pump" is a metering device. What really blows my mind is that the exhaust is running straight into your living space without killing you.
HAHA... yes... Thanks for not attacking me about my exhuast. Some people don't understand, so they decide to lash out... Saying "it blows my mind" seems like a better approach.👍
I wouldn't recommend venting your exhaust inside, but when you understand CO and CO poisoning, this isn't really that dangerous or shocking (for a short test) The real danger is the TVOC as they can stick with you for a long time.
These pumps are actually called "dosing pumps" so the clue is in the name... they tried to tell us and we ignored them, haha.
I did nother video recently where I talk more about the actual dangers of CO and what the different levels will do. I linked some OSHA info in the description of that video.
I have seen that the replacements are called "dosing" pumps. ( A dosing pump is a positive displacement pump that is designed to inject a chemical or any other substance into the flow of water, gas or steam. Dosing pumps are typically small and provide an extremely precise flow rate for maximum control )
While the heater does not require the upgraded line to run properly and effectively, the metering pump does need it to run at peak performance and not cause code issues. In your benchtop situation using gravity feed (which is not practical to all installations as not all can have their fuel above the heater) you have constant flow to the heater once you bled the air out. The dosing pump needs a firm (or better, solid) line downstream of the pump leading to the heater with the pump pointed discharge up at 15 - 90 degrees to allow for cavitation air to be removed from the line and to allow for a consistent flow to the heater. The suction end of the pump requires no hard line and is better suited to the larger volume soft line that comes standard with the heater as it does not restrict the incoming fluid to the pump which in turn will cause less pump cavitation.
The way you have shown would work great for some applications if it could be run with a solenoid valve that is 12v open and closed with the loss of power. Could possibility be connected to the pump wiring to avoid any start-up codes? Thoughts?
No this is not at all practical... just a demonstration that as long as fuel gets to the heater, it will start and run fine.
These heaters (ECUs) are stupid and only know a few things about the heater.... Despite what the manuals (and internet) says, what these code actually mean is almost always WAY over... what's the word.... There a LOT of guessing. The heater knows if the temp drops too low, or if a few things are disconnected or shorted... that's it. Everything else they say in the manual is possible causes. Example. E08 = Too low of temp was detected. Anything beyond that is pure guessing.
The line bein rigid has nothing to do with the operation of the heater. Pressure pulses from the pump being dampened by the line, or by anything else (the sell inline dampers) does not affect performance... that is what this video is about.
The fact that rigid line has a smaller diameter makes it easier to bleed, and the velocity of the fuel is greater, so bubbles are less likely to get trapped. This may matter if you have may feet of line. I have ordered 30 metres of soft line for testing. I believe I will be able to get it to fail... my question is how far will I have to push it.
The pump should be gravity fed to reduce cavitation, but the restriction of flow when the pump is pumping .022 ml per pulse, is not an issue.... In any system, the actual restriction that matters is the greatest one, and that only matters if the flow requirements are greater than the capabilities of the restriction.... Hope that makes sense, haha.
Basically, If you are forcing your pump to pull up 2 feet out of a tank, the restriction caused by lifting that fuel is many times greater than the restriction caused by the diameter of the line.
You can probably connect a resistor to the pump wires and mimic the pump. I have tried a light bulb, but it knows it's a short, haha.
I've been using one of these 5KW heaters for the first time this winter. The whole set-up was a bit daunting (including the hole in the wall), but now that I did it... there's no turning back. Will buy a few more for next winter and just as a back-up. I have a strong feeling the governments will soon ban these things when they get too popular.
The only drawback is that when the electricity goes out, these heaters are toast.
Haha... yes, putting a hole in your wall is.... not a normal thing to do. I have yet to put a hole in my garage wall and have been trying to come up with any other way... like using my ventilation system. Not a good idea.
If you get yourself a decent car battery and keep it connected to your power supply, it will be enough to run your heater for 12 - 24h depending on the size of the battery. Last winter I used a little jet ski battery and it was able to keep it running on high for 10 hours.
I have the same thoughts about governments poking their nose in. Although it's interesting to watch, there are too many thoughtless experiments and bad installs. A few fatalities will get them severely restricted. I'm buying another now just in case. Set up was a bit daunting but I'm glad I did it.
@@Cybertruck1000 My grandfather died because he cut himself while preparing chicken and was too stubborn / stupid to go to the hospital until it was too late. Fuckwits are going to find a way to kill themselves with a popsicle stick... you ban popsicle sticks and they just find a new way.
If you run it on a car battery you are good for about 30 hours runtime with no power, add a solar charger to the loop and that should extend you to 40-50 hours with a 40 watt panel
@@Zzrdemon6633 Agreed. Any sort of a solar panel whatsoever and you wont' have to worry about power. Even at full heat, these things draw very little power. A car battery and 100W solar panel and even on a cloudy day, you'd have nothing to worry about.
Excellent work Sir, thank you for taking the time to debunk the majority and actually proving the point, very well 👍👍
I have also recently purchase 30 metres of fuel line and plan on performing some ridiculous tests. I imagine I will be pushing the heater to failure... but we will see what it takes.
The vid we didnt know we needed. Good job!!
The answer to the question you didn't know you had. Thanks !
Great information for emergency situations. 👍🏼
You should see what I have coming soon .... 😁 Cough... no ecu...
Not two problems out with one solution use a solenoid valve that's wired up to the fuel pump wires that way if it ever kicks off the solenoid valve would be shut so it's safety and it would still kick on
This is a good idea with a little bit of tweaking... The pump pulses, so you would need a circuit board that kept the solenoid powered as long as it was getting pulses, but then closed the solenoid if the pulsing stopped.
You may be able to do this with a capacitor and solenoid valve, I'm not sure.
@@loweredexpectations4927 the pump itself pulses but does the power to it stay steady or does that pulse the pump might be what causes its own pulsing however if it is the power source that makes it pulse then you simply tap into the power supply for the fan run some wires over to the solenoid along with the wires for the pulse pump run them in parallel it should be the same voltage regardless this should solve the problem without needing any extra parts other than the solenoid
@@ElectroFriedRiggin Yes, good question. All of the pulsung (hz control) is done by the ECU / motherboard. The pump is basically a solenoid plunger that displaces fuel each time power is fed to it. They operate between .8 and 6 hz, in general.
Tapping into the fan could work but would likely require additional circuitry as well. The problem being that any additional component is either going to increase resistance (in series) or decrease resistance (in parallel). At the very least this would change the speed of the fan ... not a big deal if you are feeding fuel manually.
However, the ECU will see the change in resistance and pick this up as a problem with the fan. On most ECUs, this will throw a fault code and shut the heater down.
I have a video coming out in the next few days where I got my heater to run without an ECU at all. I used light bulbs in a parallel circuit to control the fan speed so I have 3 speeds... It was a lot of fun.
I wonder if you could put a normally closed liquid solenoid valve in line with the fuel line, and have it wired into the fuel pump wires so the pulses, with the help of a capacitor circuit, would keep the valve open, but if the power shut down, the fuel line would be closed.
This could work. The issue would be that the ECU needs to see the proper resistance or it will not start / operate . There may be a way to do it.
I have a video coming this weekend where I remove the ECU and run the heater using only a 12V battery and some light bulbs, haha.
The flow will start when the pressure is POSITIVE, even minor push will start the flow. Also minor VACUUM will do the job, but with opposite direction. So the main point is to keep the route in such that the flow will continue. The tubes in such a small pressure is very variable of strength, main is the usable with fuel(s). The application of your as "medical" is awesome!😊
Haha....yes... Medical drip line is not DOT fuel approved 🤣
The pumps purpose is to lift the fuel if the tank is mounted below the heater, or to insure fuel flow from a long distance especially in colder weather. My unit needs to pull the fuel from at least 6meters, Had huge problems with the supplied fuel hoses Leaking splitting more so in colder weather below -10c Replaced the hoses with insulated copper tubing and heavy duty rated diesel hose and spring clamps on all joints, these are metering pumps and should not be eliminated or by passed, I have spare pump mounted beside the pump so it's only a few minutes to change over if it fails, these pumps are known to fail, and they are cheap, Haven't Had a problem ever since.
There are plenty of great reasons to use rigid fuel line, and if you can justify the cost and effort to install steel or copper, that's awesome... it's not going to give you any troubles.
There are lots of different quality levels of soft fuel line, and many of them deteriorate over time, while I have Yamaha fuel line that is 30+ years old and still as good as the day it was made.
A spare pump. That's a good idea. You are a belt and suspenders sort of fellow, as they say. If it's really cold and your pump fails, you will be glad you did this. These pumps are pretty incredible, but all mechanical things will eventually fail.
Bypassing the pump was only for demonstration purposes, to show that these systems do not require forceful injection of fuel to operate. If the fuel gets to the heater, it will run fine.
Would a second roller give you better control? First dial at 50%, second dial would be half of that, so a micro control. I think that works anyway.
That could work. Many have suggested a needle type valve, and I think that's probably a good idea.
i guess you could use carb jets with very small hole to control drip rate and have it at fixed flow the problem i see is hight of fuel level or tank would alter the flow so as the tank gets lower the the less pressure of the fuel been pushed along the pipe
A fixed size jet would work for sure, as long as you get the size right. An adjustable needle valve would allow you to slow the fan down and adjust fuel accordingly.
The fuel pressure would drop, but this would only cause the heater to lean out slightly. The result from that is just slightly less heat from a full tank compared to an almost empty tank.
Using some sort of bimetallic strip as a way to shut off the fuel would be good way to make it safer
100% agree... Some lawnmowers use a bimetal device to turn the choke off... this could be used, perhaps.
A solenoid with a good spring that you can somehow use to squeeze the feed line when there's no power. So if you lose power, or the heater stops burning, the solenoid is de-energized and squeezes the line closed.
Or heck, even a normally-closed solenoid valve. Doh!
For sure... there are ways to do this for sure.
Haha... yup. That would do the trick !
@@loweredexpectations4927
This normally closed solenoid still needs a failsafe mode for flame out without power out.
I once realized this for a waste oil burner with a cheap 45°C normally closed temperature switch - in combination with a timer module for startup "sequence", so i didn't have to manually keep the feed open to reach this 45°.
@@werner.x Agreed... the flame can go out for many reasons. It could get messy VERY quickly.
Good back up ...wish inadequate an iv line for my camping trip as pump diet.
Can you do the same test with the white hard fuel pipe I would like to if there any difference between hard and soft fuel pipes, brilliant video
Thanks for the comment. I believe David McLuckie did hard vs soft using a otherwise stock heater. I may do this test with rigid line in the future.
You could use your hose clamp with the thumb screw to better control the flow rate of the IV dripper.
Yeah... a needle valve or even a ball valve would be a good choice... I mean... "good" choice as this is just a silly idea, haha. Other than an emergency, this is not at all practical.
Someone might have said this already, but lower your tank a little to make the adjustment less sensitive.
Yes, that could help some. Lots of people have also suggested using a needle style valve.
Its important to note the position of the heater is on its side
Not 100% sure what you mean by this, but yes... You can usually mount these on one side, but not the other.
my diesel heater's metering flow rate is 101 beats/min, and i measure it according to the beat of the tune, "Syncopated Rhythm" .
I thought you were going to say beat of "Staying Alive" 🤣
lol@@loweredexpectations4927
Love this. Can you also do a video on whats inside the pump ? Piston or ball bearing ? Thanks !
Thanks for the comment. I have wanted to do this for a long time and assumed that my pump would die... but haven't been able to kill it, haha.... I'm going to have to get a new one and cut the new one apart !
It's a solenoid fired piston with a check valve the piston size is equal to pump rating so 22ml is 22ml volume piston
@@rafecullop2690 That's basically right, but it's 22ml for 1000 pulses ... the the piston displacement is .022ml.
Thanks for clearing this up. Every time I saw someone talking about the need for a better fuel hose I wondered why since I didn't see any way that it would be pressurized.
If one were to put something like a mister nozzle on the end, with enough pressure to atomize the fuel, would it improve the burn efficiency/cleanliness?
Yeah, I've always questioned it too. I think the only way it might be an issue if you have a really long run between the pump and the heater, and it's having to push it a ways uphill. Even then, I think it would still work fine, as long as the pump can't backflow... I've never actually checked a pump to see if it has a check valve, but even if it doesn't the solution would be as simple as installing a check valve.
For me, I am running my fuel lines under a toy hauler that sees a lot of gravel roads, so I ran the hard lines. I'm planning on upgrading to a MUCH larger and permanent fuel tank, and when I do that, I plan on just running stainless steel hardline from the tank, at which point, the fuel supply system will easily outlast the trailer, no matter how much gravel gets flung at it...
Thanks for the comment and question.
If you could get the mist to happen in the burn chamber, then yes, a mist would help... I am trying to build a custom burner for this purpose.
The problems are many when trying to do this with the stock heater, though. First problem is that the fuel enters into the glow plug area (preburn chamber) and needs to do this so that the heater can initiate the burn. You don't want fuel just spraying onto the glow plug, as the plug turns off after start up and the fuel wouldn't burn.... so the mister would have to be located after the plug in the burn chamber.... then it would have no way to initiate the burn.
This is one of the easier problems to solve, and there are many more, haha. The bottom line is that these heaters burn REALLY clean when set up correctly, as is evident from my testing so adding a mist system would be added complexity for very little or no gains.
@@loweredexpectations4927 Despite having watched many of your videos about these, I still don't know the exact relationship between the fuel nozzle, burn chamber, mesh, and glow plug so it's hard for me to fully understand it. I think if you were to spray the fuel at the glow plug it would stay hot enough to keep the fire going.
@@DonziGT230 I don't blame you for thinking that... However, in order to start reliably, the glow plug is surrounded with a mesh tube. This allows the fuel to spread out and vaporize, allowing the flame to start quickly. This design requires the plug and mesh to be in a enclosed area. An enclosed area is not ideal for mist or for the main burn. To get the correct air volume in this small space the air speed would be very high and would require more pressure. The likelihood of flaming out would be very high.
For your main burn area you want a good air volume without a lot of air speed. If you are misting fuel in and it is burning, you also need open space for the gasses to expand so that you don't have a pressure spike... a pressure spike will cause the flow of air to stop, or reverse.
In my burn chamber design where I used mist, I basically used no mist to start the heater and allowed the fuel to drool in onto the glow plug. Once the flame started, air pressure was slowly added so that the flame could transition between the pool of burning fuel to the mist of fuel.
The folks who designed these heaters all those years ago really knew what they were doing... and altho they seem pretty simple, there is a LOT of thought and engineering involved.
I'm glad your old heater is still working. I got my old sweeping brush working, I just swapped out the head, and put a new handle on it. Good as new 😂.
"Only fools and horses work" UK reference
Right on ! Keeping that old stuff running. Way better and more satisfying than just getting new junk. Never heard that before, had to read it twice to understand.
That's, why the UK is in poor condition today!
But no offense, we in Germany have forgotten too, what makes a country prosper.
@@werner.x It's spreading all over the world .
I can say for sure there's no pressure and it don't matter what fuel line is used I have the 8 kw vevor Bluetooth heater and it's running like a champ no matter what I setup for it
That's the truth.
I remember when my cumbustion chmaber was gone, it maked the same sound, mesh inside burned out. Changed to new cumbustion chamber and runs like new. I would open garage doors or window when this heater is running, carbon monoxide is hazard.
Make a test with different fuel pump angles, that would be interesting on fuel consumtion aspect ratio
Thanks for the comment. I was running a brand new combustion chamber in this video. I believe it was making that sound because I had no inlet or exhaust installed, and also because the exchanger was pretty dirty.
Opening windows and doors is a good idea for sure. I was using a CO meter as well as a TVOC, CO2 and HCHO meter during this testing, but still a good idea.
@@loweredexpectations4927 in my case the noise like in this video ua-cam.com/video/QvC2bZy9bI8/v-deo.htmlsi=3msxMQh_ONl02EOF&t=377 , stayed all the time, after running heater 1 season, 2kw version, could not underrstand why. Even tried metal mesh in cumbustion chamber but noise was gone only for 2 days. Only replacing cumbustion chamber solved problem. To fix that mesh whats inside, have to cut it, replace mesh and weld it, Seen some videos on russian youtube channels, they usualy tries to fix things whats even not fixable but at the end it works.
Be carefull with carbon manoxide, friends granpa died in sealed garage while fixing car when engine was running. Real story.
@@olegs_vacija Thanks for your concern. Yes, friends of my family, and father and son, both died in their home made camper the first night they took to out. CO is no joke.
The ultimate solution would be a peristaltic pump and some eletctronic, so it can read the pump frequency and adjust the dosing speed accordingly :)
Yeah, that's getting a little complicated, but it would be very precise ! I'm guessing for many electronics nerds out there it would be easy to convert the HZ pulses to an analogue signal or varied voltage for the peristaltic pump.
well…technically its “Nicopp” -best of both worlds…lol I have an old CUCV diesel truck and installed a hot water version of the chinese heater as a block heater. It came standard with Nicop. when I installed a hot air model in my garage..the nylon tubing really just melts as nylon burns / melts too easily. I love these heaters… but another problem is that if you lose power…the cool down cycle cant operate…and the unit will self destruct. so…I use a server UPS to provide power to a 12v transformer power supply. If power is interrupted…unit will operate for another 30 minutes…use an arduino as auto off switch if UPS status is on
Yeah... I have had my exhaust glowing red and had my fuel line bubbling, haha. If you are careful about how you route the line, this is manageable, but metal line is not ever going to have an issue.
I'm running rigid because it doesn't look messy and gets tighter, cleaner corners. ie. copper or brakeline.
Absolutely ! Especially for long straight runs... rigid makes more sense. Less likely to kink, easier to fasten without worrying about pinching it... Lots of great reasons to use rigid line.
You need a little needle valve in there to control flow. I don't know how compatible it'd be from a chemical standpoint but have a look in the drip irrigation department of your favorite home improvement store, they have little plastic needle valves to adjust water flow for like 50¢ a pop.
Funny that you mention that. An old friend of mine stopped by the other evening and had the exact same thing to say, haha. I may even have a brass needle valve around, but I'm not sure that I could make it fit, so the 50 cents is probably a better idea.
They make brass ones too. I got one at some hardware store somewhere some time ago. I have it right here. See. Oh wait. Never mind. Nice video. :)
@@ebenwaterman5858 Haha... Yes... I have one I think for the humidifier feed line on a furnace. Not the easiest thing to attach to as it uses compression fittings and 1/8 npt .
@@loweredexpectations4927 Yeah, guess that's why I haven't used it yet. :)
you could put a voltage control module on the pump to meter the fuel into the heater.
The short answer is no. It uses a steady voltage that cycles at a lower or higher frequency to increase or decrease flow. This generally ranges form .8 hz (less than once a seconds) to 5hz (5 times a second)
The module would need to be something that had a frequency generator... not sure if that's what it is called ... maybe pulse frequency generator ? haha.
You are spot on on the pressure myth, I watched a few of those self proclaimed experts, no restriction no pressure
Yes... Pressure is the restriction of flow. Like I said, people get stuck on the word pressure here, because, if the pump has to lift fuel up to the heater, then there is pressure in the line due to gravity... while this is true, the pressure is greatest at the pump, and nonexistent at the outlet of the fuel line.
That is completely false. If that was true, what is the restriction that causes atmospheric pressure? If that was true, what is the restriction that causes head pressure? Dive under water and the head pressure increases as you go deeper without any restriction to flow. There is a massive misunderstanding of physics going on here. I normally love this channels videos, but this is completely misinformation.
Another fun Video of you just " sending it".. I truly enjoy these experiments kinda takes me back.. Anyway, pay no attention to the keyboard warriors, your peeps love your videos .
Thanks for the comment ! It was a fun one.
Thanksalot for this one. Maybe it saves a bittabattery... too. Am kinda shortish on electricity.
I don't think this is practical in every day use... this is a demonstration to show that fuel deliver pressure is not a concern.
I mess around with my Heat Up & Down, Too Warm, THEN too Cold
I’m sticking with the clicker *UNTIL* I’ve enough monies to go live in an all year round WARM COUNTRY lol
Excellent stuff bruh☮️🏆
Haha... yeah... a warmer climate is smart.
Some new controllers have thermostats similar to in your house, and you can buy a device called a Bureck CD Thermostat, that turns your heater on and off.
@@loweredexpectations4927 my Ex used to do similar things to “Said APP” Sounds Like an Alexa on Roids lol, and at a guess I’m 99.9% POSITIVE it’d cost a whole lot less having this APP 😇😜
Interesting experiment, thanks for the information. It's appreciate by me and many others, it's good to have others opinions and input even if they are sometimes a little aggressive in their comments.
Yes, people get attached to their ideas, and when challenged feel like they are being personally attacked.
👍🏽 🇬🇧 January 2024
This channel/chap is my David McLuckie of 2024!
What a find!
I absolutely _love_ these diesel heaters - & am so glad that the patents ran out on Eberspächer & Webasto - Karma coming home to roost (they weren't exactly especially more reliable).
I love David... What a legend !
Really amazing You know more than who invented this burner!😂👍👍
HAH ! Naw... Those folks are pretty incredible. These things are mini engineering miracles. Truly awesome that they designed these so many years ago to be so simple, reliable, durable and cost effective.
Thats great you can also recover the heat by exhausting it into the garage.
#notrecomended
@@loweredexpectations4927 agreed, too many variables to go wrong
Another thing could you possibly put a reducing orifice in the metal fuel inlet while burning waste oil. I know you probably won't read these but i would really like to get it to work on waste oil without having to clean every couple days
I try my best to read and respond to every comment. I don't want to burst your bubble, but I have spent 4 months trying to get one of these to burn waste oil... several hours every day. I have about 30 videos on the subject starting last December.
Waste oil requires a LOT of heat to burn "clean" and even when the combustion is clean, deposits are left behind. These heaters basically operate like a candle, flashing off fuel on the surface, so the deposits will always form where the fuel is pumped in.
I haven't given up on the idea completely, but "real" waste oil burners atomise the fuel with a spray. This spreads the resulting ash over a larger area and avoids rapid build up in one spot.
The only thing that might work for you is running 10% waste oil, maybe a bit more.
Those are dosing pumps. They say right on them what they are normally .22 or .65ml per pulse. Some of the older controllers let you set the Hertz and fan speed. So at 5hz it's 5x pump dosage per minute
Yup.... it's right there in the name eh... Specifically designed to supply a specific dose over a specific time.
the fact that you have it cyling at 70 per minute on the highest heat setting (according to your controller) is a tribute to how over fuelled these things are , i guess these big companies are all linked anyhow so why wouldn't they . , there is another guy on the tube setting his at 1 hz on the lowest setting , assuming thats one pump (drip per second) , it seems it is possible to go lower on the number 1 control setting . (Would it be possible to just pinch the fuel line a little upstream of the pump?) or would it destroy it , great work , very interesting thanks .
If you added some teg thermoelectric generator blocks you could get it to self generate its own power and after startup
Be totally self sufficient
Dave McLuckie and his viewers built a heater like this... it takes a lot of TEGs to make this happen. I would love to do it... not sure if I can justify the cost.... It requires at least 50 watts to power the heater alone, during normal operation 👍
hey dont know if someone said regarding the continous dripping u can put an electrovalve that is always on when the pump is receiving signal dont know the voltage .....but its shuts off when pump stops receiving signals, maby an additional circuit because i asume the signal is pwm or an ac electrovalve is required
sorry english is not my first language
Thanks for the comment. Yes, this would require extra circuitry, as the power from the pump is pulsed. I believe you can even get a device called a "delay relay" where it requires a certain amount of time after it stop receiving signal power to shut off. They used them in an old Polaris snowmobile EFI system in the 90S
Your English is pretty good 👍👍
use a solenoid to open and close the fuel when it starts and stops
That's a good idea ... a few people have mentioned this.
Which brand/model heater would you use to warm a small open fishing boat?
You want to warm an open fishing boat ? I'm not sure how this would work. Maybe I just don't know what an "open fishing boat" is.... For anything open you are going to need massive amounts of BTU (kwh).
For brands, you can't go wrong with the high end ones like Planar, Espar and Webasto, but they will cost you 10 times what a chinese copy will. The high end ones will come with sealed electrical connectors, so that's good for a boat. They also come with better quality exhaust and muffler, from everything I've heard.
The chinese copies are all about the same with a few differences / preferences. I have only tested Vevor units and have some 5 kw units linked in the description of this video. If you are trying to heat the enclosed area at the front of a fishing boat, I would assume a single 5kw unit would be enough. I have bluetooth versions listed below that are easy to use and have lots of great reviews.
Joel, thanks for the drip info! Can't wait to try it
I think it actually states this clearly in the owner's manual ... "In case of fuel pump failure, 80 drips per minute on max level is the ideal AFR for 3500 ft elevation."
Is there a way to take an ohm measurement of the fuel pump and then substitute a fixed resistor across the wires so the ECU doesn't know any different?
Yes... this should be possible. I have not tried it, but that makes sense.
having no money and trying to find a way around not to buy something if it brakes is just stupid
Wow. This sentence is incredibly hard to decipher. I'm going to try to translate.
Maybe "If you don't have any money, trying to find a solution to replacing a broken part, is stupid" ... ? This is my best guess.
Did you get confused and think that this video was about not using a pump if your pump fails and you don't have any money ? The title of the video, the introduction and the content should make it clear that's not what it's about.
Not having any money seems like a pretty good reason to come up with solutions, other than spending money... that you don't' have.
This video is about soft fuel lines absorbing energy .... and the fact that this doesn't make your heater work poorly.
you can hook up the electro valve control at the fuel pump DC connection 🙏
This would require some sort of circuitry because the pump receives pulses. Perhaps the right capacitor could do the job. I'm not an electronics guy, but it could be done.
It would be better to connect to the fan power as it is a steady supply... the problem with that is if the flame goes out for any reason, the fuel will continue to flow until the fan stops... this might take several minutes as the heater completes the cool down cycle and could make a mess of diesel.
The best solution would be to have a thermo switch that switched at 80C or something like that. That way, soon after the flame went out, the fuel would stop.
Joel,
Hope you and yours had a great christmas,
I think many people are confused, It never was about fuel pressure, it was about saftey, the rigid nylon narrow guage fuel line is less likely to soften and be destroyed by the exhaust pipe if you dont wrap the exhaust pipe in fibreglass tape. the wider green fuel line also allows excess air to build up inside it, which effects running for some people. I know there is no pressure because sometimes the fuel needs priming before a start as the fuel can run back into the tank if it is not run for a very long time. then again most people dont have a 15 foot fuel line to the tank, in which case the narrow guage nylon line helps matters a lot.
Using an IV how do you know if you exceed more than 5.5 Mhz fuel delivery limit?
How does the ecu calculate the airspeed from the internal fan if the fuel is not being set by the pulse of the pump?
you explained that this happens, then went on to do the exact opposite if you dont get enough air for the amount of fuel delivered you are possibly risking loosing the ecu from over heating.
I think in the name of saftey id rather spend 15 dollars rather than have my home or van burnt to the ground but hey you ignore saftey at your own risk, maybe it will bite you maybe it wont maybe your just lucky or maybe its just a matter of time, if I were messing with a diesel heater doing things its not supposed to do id want the stronger fuel line and then exhaust fibreglass tape and to be safe not stupid or ignorant about it and tell poeple on videos on youtube that saftey is all a myth, (if they are confusing saftey with different fuel lines) thats fking dangerous man.
it takes one idiot to get his home or garage burnt down and a loss of life and the whole state/country will ban them forever. weve already had vevor desel heaters seized by customs over here for safety concerns January 2023. for gods sake man do more research and be careful, no one wants to see you get hurt because a few youtube watchers are confused about saftey concerns and that is all that the fuel line debate was about saftey and the possible causation of fire with the green stuff being so close to the exhaust pipe. youve only got to warm it with a lighter to see how it behaves under warm heat then do the same with the nylon stuff, I would bet youll covert to the nylon fuel line imeadiately.
I did mention that good fuel line is a good idea. I don't necessarily think the rigid stuff is always the way to go. I find it to be a huge pain unless you are making long straight runs.
I have had many people tell me that you need to use the rigid line, because the soft stuff flexes / expands under pressure and the fuel isn't delivered to the heater properly. I've also seen at least 3-4 videos about this and several forum posts. Many people have told me that the original fuel line will make the heater work poorly and weren't just worried about it kinking or failing.
I can see how the narrow gauge line would make it quicker to prime. That's a benefit for sure if you have a long fuel line. I have frequently seen air in my fuel line, but have never noticed any negative side effects. Unless it flames out, it will just run a little lean for a few seconds.... I suppose.
I just tried:
The white fuel line isn't PVC, no acid, when burning - it's the same plastic, which is used for automotive fuel lines.
But it burns nonetheless - can be ignited with a small gas lighter and continues to burn, dripping flaming drops.
The soft green line - no idea, what plastic, it's not silicone - also ignites with a lighter, takes a while though - and it also continuos burning.
So - no difference there.
The green line does degrade though within one year - not everywhere - only partially, mainly at bends. I will never use the green stuff underneath a car, where it may have a fuel spill, when cracked.
But really - this should be clear from the start. At least for somebody, who has to do with automobiles.
The white stuff is proven in automotive world, the black rubbery stuff was once durable and safe, but then they changed the ingredients and now we have a worldwide rubber durability crisis for at least a decade now - care has to be taken! Seriously!
Not sure, that an expensive black NBR-fuel line lasts longer than the green line these days!
But i agree, Joel should use the first 60 seconds for declaimers of all imaginable sorts again, because, that's UA-cam and even Einstein didn't have any idea, where human stupidity might end.
@@werner.x It makes a cool noise when the flaming bits fall to the ground ... like 1970s space lasers !
I have seen that the green stuff hardens around fittings and bends more than other areas. I haven't had any leak or fail yet, other than from severe overheating, haha.
Haha... yes... I don't dispute that the white line is better, and I don't dispute that it is a good idea to use it especially for an automotive application. All I was trying to say is that these heaters do not care if the fuel line has flex or not. The force of the fuel being delivered has zero effect on the way the heater operates.
@@loweredexpectations4927
I fully agree, that these heaters don't need squirting fuel.
I just dedicated this answer to the man in the van, who is concerned, that you'd recommend flammable fuel line and therefore created unneccessary danger zones.
@@werner.x Oh, thanks. I missed that comment.
Yes drip feed will allow the heater to work, but you will have no control over the amount of heat. Why try to reinvent the wheel.
If the noisy pump is your issue put it in a lead lined box for complete silence.
This was simply a demonstration to show that fuel doesn't need to be injected under pressure and works just fine as long as fuel gets to the heater.
I see you test everything. I would like to know what the amp draw is after the start up when the glow plug cuts out.
Are you asking for a video or you just want to know ? haha. Depending on the heat setting, it is between 40 and 50 watts.
Thank you. I doubt you can make a whole video on that amp draw. I was thinking of using a 24 volt drill battery to run it. I already ordered the step down converter twice. The first was only rated at 10 amps, I just ordered a 30 amp one that might get here before the first one.@@loweredexpectations4927
I see I replied to the wrong comment. I'm pretty sure that a substantial tool battery would work to power the Devor, but the scary part would be the battery going dead and the damaging the heater. There is a module that would shut the heater off to save the battery and I think an in-line relay relay could switch on another battery and maybe an alarm to let you know you are on reserve power and even maybe start the sequence to do the Devor shut-down. To simply answer your question in your reply.......YES! @@loweredexpectations4927
you could add a solenoid valve as a safety.
This is an option for sure. Ideally it would be normally closed. That way if the power goes out, it closes... and then a thermal switch could also turn it off in the case the flame went out👍
Good video! I really appreciate folks like you doing this kind of work. Cheers!
Thanks ! I enjoy it.... making the videos is the hard part, haha.