I for years used IMI mil spec Match cases,allI did was run the necks to round them out,ream inside case mouth a little and add either CCI BR2’s,or FGM 210m primers. Sure never resized all the new cases,and they shot 175 Sierra BTHPs@2710 FPS. Shot a .248 Moa at 500yds,only to find a loose Badger ring upon cleaning after range time.I loaded them on a Dillon 550.
justsumname No, you can't. Unless it's the thin-necked Hornet cases. How are you going to straighten a crooked bullet in a case with .013-.015 inch neck walls with a plastic thumbscrew? I had one. It didn't straighten anything. It also doesn't hold the case in a manner conducive to accurate runout testing. I have both the RCBS and the Sinclair. They're both great.
I have this and find it excellent quality and works well. The only thing I don’t like is it’s often difficult to read unless you’re sitting down, and being tall it bothers me more. I wish now I had spent a bit more and tried the Redding slant bed gauge, that tilts the dial indicator back at a 30 degree angle. It uses the exact same principle as this Sinclair, it just seems easier and more ergonomic to use. But the Sinclair is great quality, and I might try and make a slanted base for just to get easier visibility onto the dial.
I'd like to see a concentricity comparison between conventional single stage presses like the Rock crusher and the co-ax presses both Forrester and Frankford Arsenal. Still not convinced it is worth investing in a new press.
You would think concentricity would be more in the dies than the press overall, but agreed, would be very interested to see how that is meant to stack up against small scale arbor presses that seem to be all the rage in the PPC crowd.
I've got both the Sinclair concentricity gauge that you showing there, and the Hornady concentricity gauge or concentricity tool since you can correct bullet run-out with it to a certain extent. I absolutely love my Sinclair concentricity gauge, works like a charm very accurate. The Hornady is pretty accurate as well but I find the Sinclair a little bit more accurate. Great video brother, keep up the good work we all appreciate it. I'm using Starline brass and I'm getting less than a thousand plus or minus run out on the neck and bullet when using my mighty Armory Wayne full-length sizing die. And if I turn the next I'm sure I would get 0 run out with a perfectly aligned bullet and cartridge. Like to see you review the 21st century neck trimming tool as well. Echo
@@markh6427 thanks Mark I believe we spoke on the phone. I'm the guy from St Petersburg Florida. That told you how well your 308 full-length sizing die works. My neck run out is less than a half a thousandth and that's before I turn the neck. Absolutely wonderful product, very glad I got to get my hands on it. Thanks again, David.
For a normal paper punchers if groups are allready less than 0.5 Moa I dont know about buying... Maybe for Benchrest reloaders this is a must tool. But it looks cool😏
The Essex Hunter TruTool-Equipment.com makes a tool that corrects bullet wobble. It's simple and inexpensive and can also be used on factory ammo. If your case necks come out of the sizer die as close to perfectly straight as possible, you shouldn't have any issues. In-line seater dies are, IMO, preferable to standard seater dies.
Let me point out the primary reason one would use a concentricity gauge: to discover bullet seating problems. If your concentricity is more than say .006, you probably have a bullet seating problem. Yes you can use the Hornady to correct that much (on the few calibers I load anyway), although, you might not be able to go from .006 to .001 with the Hornady. But you should be getting .003 or less with any die (check your shell holder for skew or nicks or damage, and your press). I have Lee, RCBS and Redding dies for a handful of calibers. I reload for sport and hunting, but not competition (not yet anyway).
So, I’m starting to put together some reloading equipment. I have ordered my press and now I’m working on accessories. Concentricity is a newer term to me, so forgive me if I don’t have it right here. It seems that on the Sinclair, that if the body of the cartridge isn’t concentric, the readings would be skewed. The same would also be true of the Hornady. If the bullet isn’t seated straight, or if the case rim is not concentric, the “wobble” you mentioned would then impact the reading, correct? Is there not a concentricity tool that would revolve around either the neck or the bullet without case involvement?
So as I look at the various testing tools to determine the amount of runout at the ogive of a cartridge, you would think the tool would need to hold the case head as it would be if chambered. So the dial is able to measure the ogive . Of course the bullet tip should be held in alignment with the center of the case head. You could have a misaligned case at any point along its length, and the dial will show it as a false concentricity issue. That seems to be the issue the Hornady tool addresses. But that doesn’t correct a misaligned die in a press that has floated left or right, thus off center.
That's my thought as well. It seems like the Hornady tool is superior just because of the fixed alignment. I've seen several comments from people who have both devices and often they say the Sinclair tool is more accurate, but I don’t see how that can be. Maybe it has a better dial? Or maybe they used the Sinclair first and used the figures produced from that as their reference point and then thought the Hornady was just off because it gave a proper figure and they didn't realize it.
@@austinfisheroutdoors Since the whole reason of checking is to determine how Coax the bullet is to the center line of the case how much or how little wobble that bullet has or does not have, so when fired in the rifles chamber it will or it won't fly true to the coax of the chamber to the centerline of the muzzle. Therefore you need a tool that is held in place at both ends, like the tip of the bullet at that end and the outer edge of the rim of the case at the other end. Then the dial indicator can read wobble in a case body anywhere between those two points. Most inspections are done at the case neck where the bullet being seated will indicate trueness of the bearing surface area of the case. If the case has any wobble at this point the bullet will exit the barrel and begin to yah, loosing stability and keyholing onto paper as close as 100 yards. But if the Ogive of a bullet wobbles because the case is bent or the bullet is out of round or the case mouth is out of round or off coax to the base of the case as it fits into the chamber when the bolt is closed. If the case base is resized with a minimum base die when it does not need that then the bolts extractor claw can move the case head off the centerline. Most of these issues can be corrected at the loading bench.
What is the cause for bullet runout? I am new to reloading. I have a hornady iron press with the match dies for the 6.5 creedmore. When I reload my once fired brass I will get 4 or 5 rounds out of 50 that are clearly non concentric.
Buy good brass first and foremost. Remove the expander ball from your sizing die; get a separate decapping die if necessary. Use expander mandrels in a separate stroke and runout is usually never an issue.
Question.. is runout measured in +\-, or is it the total amount the needle moves? For instance, if one says you should strive for .002 run out, are they saying it should be +\- .002, or are they saying the dial should not move more than a TOTAL of .002?
TIR is total indicated runout and whatever amount the needle moves. Runout is half of whatever the needle moves. So if there is .001” runout you will see .002 TIR on the indicator.
The Sinclair looks cool but I'm confused about what to do if the concentricity range is bad. On the Hornady tool you can make fine adjustments to improve concentricity. What steps do you take if the Sinclair gauge indicates you need to make adjustments?
You determine where in the process the runout is occurring and correct the process. No, this will not correct the one in your hand, but it will correct the next 1000 rounds
@@strengthcourage9149 No, not really.. Unless you're guaging every piece of brass, every bullet, ect. Using whatever dies you are using, sometimes you're just going to seat a bullet all crazy. It happens. With the Hornady you can correct that.
So these tools gauge concentricity but no body mentions what to about if you get a bad reading? Do you have to buy a new press to "solve" this problem?
It's the expander ball , bending the brass .... I use the best ....only the best , the best press , the best dies ... LoL I've heard that more times than anyone would believe....
I use the Sinclair for my readings. I wish it came with a way to hold the case. One of these days I am going to make a spring loaded inverted "L" to hold the case, so I would have only to spin it and have a more easy reading.
Got this gauge. Not a great gauge. It does work but very difficult to hold especially with smaller calibers. It also leaves marks on the case where they ride on the ball bearings.
Only thing I don't like is that depending on how hard you press that soft brass againast those berarings, you can manipulate the readings by up to .2 thou. So your readings, no matter what on this are not absolute as long as you are turning the case. Not to say this is a bad product. I have one and use it religiously for hunting and target practice. For precision BR I use a 21st century runnout guage. Still, tis is a pretty good tool.
Hay champ.. my name is Danny.. I've just started to get into reloading and buying bits and bobs when I can afford it... I've just looked at these gages... and fuck are they expencive... they have about 50 dollars of equipment in them and they are ripping people off for hundreds of dollars... do you know how easy it is to make one ?
Hornady actually spins on the centerline. Where the Sinclair lays on the angle of whatever case taper you have and gage's a height. But Sinclair does not spin about the centerline. Your confusing users. Get a GD&T book. No one here has the money to check concentricity.
WONT ADJUSTING THE RUNOUT WITH THE HORNADY TOOL RUIN NECK TENSION....NOT NECISATILY THE TARGET AMOUNT OF TENSION, BUT IF NOTHING ELSE THE CONSISTENCY OF TENSION BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT CARTRIDGES
Ah there you go with another term ; concentricity , runout & bullet misalignment ? Make a video using hand sketches demonstrating what all of these are and pretend we have a grade 5 education. Now that would be nice.
I have this gauge since 2005 in use! Still happy with it!.
Well at least watching your channel only cost me 89.99 this time.
I think a simple v block might work just as well
LOL I know right.
So easy to make.. and these mother f charge the earth
139.00 now
You cost me too much money Gavin!!! Great review!
As long as your brass is perfect !
I for years used IMI mil spec Match cases,allI did was run the necks to round them out,ream inside case mouth a little and add either CCI BR2’s,or FGM 210m primers.
Sure never resized all the new cases,and they shot 175 Sierra BTHPs@2710 FPS.
Shot a .248 Moa at 500yds,only to find a loose Badger ring upon cleaning after range time.I loaded them on a Dillon 550.
You should really do a review on the NECO gauge. There isn't much on UA-cam for it. And it should be more well known, the neco is legendary
Get the Hornady one, you can correct deviances with it
justsumname No, you can't. Unless it's the thin-necked Hornet cases. How are you going to straighten a crooked bullet in a case with .013-.015 inch neck walls with a plastic thumbscrew?
I had one. It didn't straighten anything. It also doesn't hold the case in a manner conducive to accurate runout testing. I have both the RCBS and the Sinclair. They're both great.
@@luvtahandload7948 Why be an internet troll? I have the Hornady and I use it, just as I said. Have a nice day.
I have this and find it excellent quality and works well. The only thing I don’t like is it’s often difficult to read unless you’re sitting down, and being tall it bothers me more. I wish now I had spent a bit more and tried the Redding slant bed gauge, that tilts the dial indicator back at a 30 degree angle. It uses the exact same principle as this Sinclair, it just seems easier and more ergonomic to use. But the Sinclair is great quality, and I might try and make a slanted base for just to get easier visibility onto the dial.
Great video
I'd like to see a concentricity comparison between conventional single stage presses like the Rock crusher and the co-ax presses both Forrester and Frankford Arsenal. Still not convinced it is worth investing in a new press.
You would think concentricity would be more in the dies than the press overall, but agreed, would be very interested to see how that is meant to stack up against small scale arbor presses that seem to be all the rage in the PPC crowd.
@@paulvenn4447 what Paul said.
@@jeffallen3382 yes he did. Had it all in spreadsheets
I've got both the Sinclair concentricity gauge that you showing there, and the Hornady concentricity gauge or concentricity tool since you can correct bullet run-out with it to a certain extent. I absolutely love my Sinclair concentricity gauge, works like a charm very accurate. The Hornady is pretty accurate as well but I find the Sinclair a little bit more accurate. Great video brother, keep up the good work we all appreciate it. I'm using Starline brass and I'm getting less than a thousand plus or minus run out on the neck and bullet when using my mighty Armory Wayne full-length sizing die. And if I turn the next I'm sure I would get 0 run out with a perfectly aligned bullet and cartridge. Like to see you review the 21st century neck trimming tool as well. Echo
@@markh6427 thanks Mark I believe we spoke on the phone. I'm the guy from St Petersburg Florida. That told you how well your 308 full-length sizing die works. My neck run out is less than a half a thousandth and that's before I turn the neck. Absolutely wonderful product, very glad I got to get my hands on it. Thanks again, David.
Use the case in the LE Wilson case holder on the Sinclair Concentricity gauge.
Nice tool, I sold mine on eBay about a year ago. I bought a NECO and haven't looked back.
How do you adjust with the sinclair tool?
For a normal paper punchers if groups are allready less than 0.5 Moa I dont know about buying... Maybe for Benchrest reloaders this is a must tool. But it looks cool😏
OK, now that I've discovered my assembled cartridges are out of round, how can I fix them?
Great video Gavin!
what do you recommend the Hornady or the Sinclair?
Yes they are good
What is an acceptable account of bullet run-out for target shooting
How do you correct any values once you have found they are out of tolerance?
How do you assure the rounds are concentric as you are making them?
^^^ This. Also, how about testing showing the accuracy impact of a 'good' cartridge and one not as 'good'.
The Essex Hunter TruTool-Equipment.com makes a tool that corrects bullet wobble. It's simple and inexpensive and can also be used on factory ammo. If your case necks come out of the sizer die as close to perfectly straight as possible, you shouldn't have any issues. In-line seater dies are, IMO, preferable to standard seater dies.
Let me point out the primary reason one would use a concentricity gauge: to discover bullet seating problems. If your concentricity is more than say .006, you probably have a bullet seating problem. Yes you can use the Hornady to correct that much (on the few calibers I load anyway), although, you might not be able to go from .006 to .001 with the Hornady. But you should be getting .003 or less with any die (check your shell holder for skew or nicks or damage, and your press). I have Lee, RCBS and Redding dies for a handful of calibers. I reload for sport and hunting, but not competition (not yet anyway).
I like and use the RCBS one. You can measure bullet run out. Case neck thickness And Neck concentricity
I just built one using 4 ball bearings and a dial indicator.
If I’m just beginner what’s max numbers I should look?
So, I’m starting to put together some reloading equipment. I have ordered my press and now I’m working on accessories.
Concentricity is a newer term to me, so forgive me if I don’t have it right here. It seems that on the Sinclair, that if the body of the cartridge isn’t concentric, the readings would be skewed. The same would also be true of the Hornady. If the bullet isn’t seated straight, or if the case rim is not concentric, the “wobble” you mentioned would then impact the reading, correct? Is there not a concentricity tool that would revolve around either the neck or the bullet without case involvement?
Looking to start reloading 338 lapua, any suggestions on which press would be a good starter press?
Redding Ultramag or Redding Big Boss 2
How do you correct practically with the Sinclair?
So as I look at the various testing tools to determine the amount of runout at the ogive of a cartridge, you would think the tool would need to hold the case head as it would be if chambered. So the dial is able to measure the ogive . Of course the bullet tip should be held in alignment with the center of the case head. You could have a misaligned case at any point along its length, and the dial will show it as a false concentricity issue. That seems to be the issue the Hornady tool addresses. But that doesn’t correct a misaligned die in a press that has floated left or right, thus off center.
That's my thought as well. It seems like the Hornady tool is superior just because of the fixed alignment. I've seen several comments from people who have both devices and often they say the Sinclair tool is more accurate, but I don’t see how that can be. Maybe it has a better dial? Or maybe they used the Sinclair first and used the figures produced from that as their reference point and then thought the Hornady was just off because it gave a proper figure and they didn't realize it.
@@austinfisheroutdoors Since the whole reason of checking is to determine how Coax the bullet is to the center line of the case how much or how little wobble that bullet has or does not have, so when fired in the rifles chamber it will or it won't fly true to the coax of the chamber to the centerline of the muzzle. Therefore you need a tool that is held in place at both ends, like the tip of the bullet at that end and the outer edge of the rim of the case at the other end. Then the dial indicator can read wobble in a case body anywhere between those two points. Most inspections are done at the case neck where the bullet being seated will indicate trueness of the bearing surface area of the case. If the case has any wobble at this point the bullet will exit the barrel and begin to yah, loosing stability and keyholing onto paper as close as 100 yards. But if the Ogive of a bullet wobbles because the case is bent or the bullet is out of round or the case mouth is out of round or off coax to the base of the case as it fits into the chamber when the bolt is closed. If the case base is resized with a minimum base die when it does not need that then the bolts extractor claw can move the case head off the centerline. Most of these issues can be corrected at the loading bench.
What is the cause for bullet runout? I am new to reloading. I have a hornady iron press with the match dies for the 6.5 creedmore. When I reload my once fired brass I will get 4 or 5 rounds out of 50 that are clearly non concentric.
Buy good brass first and foremost. Remove the expander ball from your sizing die; get a separate decapping die if necessary. Use expander mandrels in a separate stroke and runout is usually never an issue.
Question.. is runout measured in +\-, or is it the total amount the needle moves? For instance, if one says you should strive for .002 run out, are they saying it should be +\- .002, or are they saying the dial should not move more than a TOTAL of .002?
TIR is total indicated runout and whatever amount the needle moves. Runout is half of whatever the needle moves. So if there is .001” runout you will see .002 TIR on the indicator.
in checking bullet run out ,error could also be brass not being concentric.
The Sinclair looks cool but I'm confused about what to do if the concentricity range is bad. On the Hornady tool you can make fine adjustments to improve concentricity. What steps do you take if the Sinclair gauge indicates you need to make adjustments?
You determine where in the process the runout is occurring and correct the process. No, this will not correct the one in your hand, but it will correct the next 1000 rounds
@@strengthcourage9149 No, not really.. Unless you're guaging every piece of brass, every bullet, ect. Using whatever dies you are using, sometimes you're just going to seat a bullet all crazy. It happens. With the Hornady you can correct that.
Love mine.
So these tools gauge concentricity but no body mentions what to about if you get a bad reading? Do you have to buy a new press to "solve" this problem?
It's the expander ball , bending the brass ....
I use the best ....only the best , the best press , the best dies ... LoL
I've heard that more times than anyone would believe....
Just buy one lol !!! Waiting it
Which is better, Sinclair or Hornady?
Sinclair
@@luvtahandload7948 Thank you very much and best regards. Sebastian
Aaaand, some of the others have a correction item on it, to get the bullet straight if it is out of the axis.
I use the Sinclair for my readings. I wish it came with a way to hold the case. One of these days I am going to make a spring loaded inverted "L" to hold the case, so I would have only to spin it and have a more easy reading.
Got this gauge. Not a great gauge. It does work but very difficult to hold especially with smaller calibers. It also leaves marks on the case where they ride on the ball bearings.
Dial test indicators will work better
DTI isn't for absolute deflection, I think the regular indicators work well for this...
@@Ultimatereloader Well you got paid so I would expect your opinion would agree with the manufacturer. But you claim engineer and should know better.
What´s about the 21st century, Hornady, RCBS, Forster, Bischoff,........ ?
Only thing I don't like is that depending on how hard you press that soft brass againast those berarings, you can manipulate the readings by up to .2 thou. So your readings, no matter what on this are not absolute as long as you are turning the case. Not to say this is a bad product. I have one and use it religiously for hunting and target practice. For precision BR I use a 21st century runnout guage. Still, tis is a pretty good tool.
Hay champ.. my name is Danny.. I've just started to get into reloading and buying bits and bobs when I can afford it... I've just looked at these gages... and fuck are they expencive... they have about 50 dollars of equipment in them and they are ripping people off for hundreds of dollars... do you know how easy it is to make one ?
👍😃‼️
some people would call this runout, not concentricity.
Cracks me up when people will call out ten-thousands of an inch with a dial indicator graduated in thousandth’s. SMH.
Call me cheap but I just spin the case and or bullet using my dial caliper
Hornady actually spins on the centerline. Where the Sinclair lays on the angle of whatever case taper you have and gage's a height. But Sinclair does not spin about the centerline. Your confusing users. Get a GD&T book. No one here has the money to check concentricity.
I watch alot of your videos and you always say maesure instead of measure, is that some fancy machinist term or something?
i know a guy from Illinois who says it the same way....
WONT ADJUSTING THE RUNOUT WITH THE HORNADY TOOL RUIN NECK TENSION....NOT NECISATILY THE TARGET AMOUNT OF TENSION, BUT IF NOTHING ELSE THE CONSISTENCY OF TENSION BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT CARTRIDGES
You mean runout not even total runout. But not concentricity.
Ah there you go with another term ; concentricity , runout & bullet misalignment ?
Make a video using hand sketches demonstrating what all of these are and pretend we have a grade 5 education.
Now that would be nice.
Would you PLEASE stop saying "casing?" The deep drawn component utilized in assembling a cartridge is a case. A casing is use to make sausages.
David Flick no :) It’s a shell casing- casing for short.
That's a horrible gage if the case is taped.
LIKE ,,
This looks like a bad idea