Glad to hear that, Thank you so much for your longstanding support we greatly appreciate it! It is because of good folks like you that we are able to produce high quality videos and magazines. We do not take that lightly and it means a lot to us! Thank you for watching! - Jeremiah
I happen to have a concentricity gauge (albeit the Hornady version) and find it both a blessing and a curse. Chasing perfection isn't really needed for a guy with a 300 yard max deer hunting habit, but learning from the tool can be fascinating. The tool can help solidify or second guess your choice of dies and presses for instance. All in all it gathered interesting information that ultimately is as important as you make it.
Nothing wrong with the Hornady version everyone has their preferences. I can whole heatedly relate to that statement. You can really start to chase your tail with this stuff and before you know it you are down a big dark rabbit hole. In the end I think it is a great tool to check your dies and to check your press and how well the two are working together and you can take it as far as you want to. You decide how much runout is too much everyone has their own preferences. Thank you very much for watching and for commenting!
Redding is top quality stuff, as is their customer service. In 40yrs, i only had one issue. (this is where the importance of a concentricity tool is very important!) I thought i had a bad Redding neck die one time, and Redding is minutes from me, so i drove over there. The fella there asked me if i had checked the press. Come to find out, the ram in my Redding press was slightly out of spec. It had gotten slightly bent somehow, but no clue how. I`m not rough on my equipment. They took a new press out of the box, checked it, was spot on, they handed me a new press right there without hesitation. That was about 30ys ago. No issues since.
I agree in full with you I use their stuff quite a bit and I tout them quite often on the channel but for good reason. The only issue I have ever had with them was I ordered a 30-06 MH die set from Brownells. It had the wrong sizing die in it one for a .303 British instead of 30-06. One call and 3 days later I had a brand new 30-06 sizing die. excellent customer service and excellent products. Thanks for sharing your experience It is always nice to hear from others and thank you for watching!
It would be interesting to see one of the Juenke (spelling?) units in operation. I believe John Barseness has mentioned them a few times. They basically help measure the concentricity of multi-component bullets INTERNALLY, which was said to make a big difference in gyroscopic stability - and, ultimately, group size. It seems perfectly logical, and I bet a lot of handloaders would purchase one if they were offered commercially.
We would love to put the Vern Juenke Machine to the test! We have written about it a few times in the magazine over the years and it is a very interesting concept. Based off our results from years of testing it makes a lot of sense. Inconsistent bullets usually yield larger groups while bullets of consistent construction will usually yield smaller groups with good loads. The only issue with covering this machine is acquiring one and assembling one as I am unaware of any fully assembled machines for sale. Taking the time to assemble one is very complicated and very time consuming without extensive knowledge of the system and wiring.
Thanks for this review! I love my Sinclair and RCBS units but did not like my Hornady. As an experiment, I once ran the same round across all three gauges. The Sinclair and RCBS units agreed with each other, at .002, while the Hornady read .006. I don't like the way the Hornady unit holds the cartridge. So I traded it at a gunshow. I'll probably get the Redding tool since I have three areas in my house where I "spin" ammo. Thanks again!
We have not had much experiance in house with the Hornady unit however the straightening feature looked very interesting. That is interesting about the differences in readings though! We have a new Hornady measurement station and we are working on a video for that in the future as well. Something we will have to keep an eye out for! No problem thank you very much for watching!
You make reference to bullet runout, but your testing the cartridge case minus a seated bullet. So may I suggest that you hold the case against the rolling balls, as you are but you place your dial indicator at several locations along the case side wall. Thus you should see if any wobble in the case. The case could be out of round, if so the case rolling on those ball bearings is going to give you a false reading at the neck that you are calling runout. If you test cases that were fired but not resized this method well show if your rifle chamber is out of round. If you test your cases after they have been resized you will be measuring the true nature of the die you used to resize that or those cases. Bullet runout should be tested on a tool with a dial that holds the case as if it were in a rifle chamber with the bolt closed behind it, and a bullet point is supported at the other end. Then by placing the dial indicator on the bullet ogive, you measure how much off center that bullet is. That then becomes your intended runout measurement.
You have made an excellent observation this is true that an out of round case can effect the accuracy of the bullet runout when using this gauge. The Redding also does not use ball bearings to roll the cartridge it uses 4 posts to hold the cartridge and you roll the cartridge in the "V" that these posts make. We checked our case runout off camera on multiple gauges to make sure they had minimal runout. In fact you will see us use some of the same cartridges in other videos. Perhaps we should have mentioned that in the video but this was for demonstration purposes to show you how the gauge works. Redding actually makes a separate gauge for checking case neck runout. That is true you can run your unsized case over the gauge to check your chamber I do this a lot with .45-70 cases as the straight wall cases seem to be more prone to being off in comparison to the chamber of the rifle. There are not many gauges that hold the cartridge the way you have described the Hornady tool comes to mind but that is the only one I can think of off the top of my head. I think your method would work though and I am sure you have had good results from it. Thank you for watching and thank you for sharing your personal experience!
Can this tool be used for measuring case neck runout? For example, let's say you didn't seat the bullet yet and you check the concentricity of the brass will the case run out be equivalent to the bullet run out?
Great question, usually bullet runout will be roughly twice as bad as neck runout. Of course this can vary and depends on your seating dies that you are using among other things but that is generally speaking what I have experienced. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment! --Jeremiah
They are the only manufacturer I am aware of that is making a slant bed concentricity gauge at this time. I know you can purchase it through Brownells UK for 150 or so Euros however I do believe they are back ordered currently.
I agree the camera angle could have been better, in order to get an accurate reading you have to keep uniform pressure on the cartridge and we also wanted to showcase the ergonomics of the gauge. Unfortunately that put my hand in a rather disruptive spot. We will refine that for future videos. Thanks for the feedback and thank you for watching!
TIR stands for Total indicator Reading not total indicator runout. TIR has been replaced with FIM "Full Indicator Movement". I have been a American Society For Quality "Certified Mechanical Inspector" for 40 years (since 5-10-1982), I do this for a living everyday, my work "Bible" is ASME Y14.5-1994 & the newer version 2008 I believe. The slant bed doesn't really provide any thing that makes the reading any more accurate than using a flat gage like the Sinclair International. It may make seeing the gage a bit easier if you do this standing up. Doing it sitting down with a flat gage like the Sinclair is going to or should give you the same reading. The slant is kind of gimmicky, but it's still a good tool. But given the choice between the Redding and the Sinclair, I'd go with the Sinclair. but that's just me and 40 years of experience.
Thank you for the correction I appreciate that! I do my best to get things correct when filming these things and from time to time I get my words mixed up. I appreciate the correction and the feedback. I do like the Sinclair gauge as well, I feel like the ergonomics of the slant bed are better overall and because of the slant bed it allows for checking ammo faster but that is just me I only have been doing this for 24 years and everyone is different and that is okay. It is nice to have the variety of different tools to fit everyone's preference. Thank you for watching and taking the time to watch and to comment! --Jeremiah
40 years doesn't necessarily mean anything, it's just the number "40". This is from a professional statistician of 29 years. Which doesn't mean much since "29" is just a number. Arbitrary quantities have no intrinsic value or imply wisdom, correctness or insight. But that's just me running off at the mouth.
@@lonebeagle That is true, I think what matters more is the actual wisdom and how much knowledge has actually been acquired in that said time frame. There is a lot that goes into that equation someone who has 12 years of experience could understand and do things better than someone with double that amount of time if circumstances were correct. At any rate I appreciate you taking the time to watch and comment it is always appreciated! --Jeremiah
What do you think about measuring runout on the case neck after sizing and before powder charging as a way select to the best cases? I love to handload and am into the details. thanks for your work.
If you are looking to get the most accuracy out of your cases we absolutely recommend sorting your cases and checking case neck run-out. Redding actually makes another gauge for case neck concentricity and it works very well for measuring run-out on the case necks before and after sizing. We have noticed that if your case necks have say .003" run-out then your bullet concentricity will likely be about double that. So having concentric case necks is important if you are seeking a higher degree of accuracy.
That is a great question and it goes a little beyond the scope of this video, hopefully in the near future we will produce a video on how to correct run-out. It starts with your brass and dies though. Measure run-out before and after sizing of the case necks. Then check for bullet run-out which in our experience is usually doubled of whatever run-out is already in the case neck. There is a tool available from Hornady which is supposed to correct bullet run out perhaps this is another tool we can put to the test.
That is a great question and the answer is not quite as clear cut as you may think. Perhaps we should do a video dedicated to this subject. There are many factors that can contribute to concentricity. The brass and dies are both major contributing factors in concentricity. Selecting high quality dies will help keep the neck of the case concentric during sizing and a good seating die will help seat the bullet concentric. As far as correcting bullet runout there are a few options out there the Hornady concentricity gauge has a tool that is included to help straighten the bullet there is also a tool sold by NECO called the Cartridge alignment tool or CAT. This tool is used to help correct the concentricity of loaded ammo. However one should be careful when using these tools because they can effect neck tension. Thank you for watching and great question! --Jeremiah
We appreciate the feedback we have considered doing it however we don't want to sound like we are trying to push products or a specific distributor. We strive to remain as Unbiased as possible, and prices can vary so much we would hate to give inaccurate information. Perhaps moving forward we could mention price at the time of filming though!
I probably should have explained it a little more in depth but it is a subject I intend to cover more in depth in our how to handload series we are working on. Handloading 101 is already up and I am working on Handloading 102 next and that will probably go into detail about runout. I guess I assumed that folks interested in a Concentricity would already know what it is. I appreciate the suggestion and will certainly address runout in future videos. Thank you for taking the time to watch and comment! --Jeremiah
Great question, I think we will do a video detailing how to reduce run-out. In short there are a lot of variables that can effect run-out, your sizing dies, seating dies and brass all play a critical roll in bullet and case neck run-out. You can neck turn brass which can also help achieve uniform necks and reduce run-out.
Ok....so.....what is the acceptable allowable tolerance? You say the words fine, but, what is the number exactly? Maybe even give me the true position. If the total indicated runout is three thousandths from an established value, as with everything, there is a tolerance number, not close enough or pretty close. Please give me a number to validate what you are trying to teach here for my safety and for others. In other words,”Number, Please”.
I wish I could give you a set standardized number however it really depends on your application and what kind of accuracy you are looking to get. Most benchrest shooters are looking for less than one thousandth of an inch total indicator runout (TIR). for PRS competition most guys are somewhere around 1-2 thousandths. However there is no safety concern with runout I have yet to see a case where runout has lead to pressure issues or anything like that. If you are looking to get pretty good accuracy I would suggest starting at a TIR of 1-3 thousandths and see how it shoots with a good load I find that is usually sufficient for my personal needs. However if you are shooting at extreme ranges or want one hole groups you may want less runout. It really is entirely up to the handloader and his personal accuracy standards. Thanks for commenting and I hope this helps and as always thank you for watching!
@@HandloaderTV sir, thanks for the in-depth reply. The more I learn about reloading ....the more I learn. I have seen videos on UA-cam,where some reloaders and shooters refer to a term called,” standard deviation”, which sounds impressive. But I am thinking it’s more like “what’s the probability” that the next shot is going to hit in the exact same place. The variables are huge. Maybe get the human factor out of that equation. Mainly get the testosterone out. Let the mechanics of shooting and the chemistry of the powder do it’s job untouched by human hands be the only thing that determines the outcome. If you looks at the SAMMY SPECS of any given caliber, in order to buy guns and ammo to shoot for recreation or defense, this philosophy goes back to president Lincoln and the civil war. Two men, Pratt and Whitney, coined a term called ,”interchangeability” for the battle field fire arms, so the troops could repair their arms in the field with spare parts. During the civil war Pratt and Whitney were already measuring in the millionths of an inch. No matter how small, everything has a tolerance, except when it comes to making change with money. Money has zero tolerance. Once a shooter squeezes off that round, the shooters job is finished. Now it becomes a guess where that thing is going to hit. No one knows until it stops. All we can do is hope, guess, pray...whatever. Only a very lucky few, and the few may be one person in a million will reload and drill holes with what they remade and put through a rifle that the rifle likes consistently. That repeatability factor should be shared. In some small way, every firearm is just a little different because of the tolerances allowed during manufacturing. Finding that “ONE” is the hard part. I bought a used .223 Remington 700 BDL with a heavy barrel. I feel the guy got rid of it because it did not hold a pattern. So, one day I went to my local bass pro and bought a box of everything they had, and I went to my local range. I was very disappointed nothing was getting better. My last box was supposed to be the worst thing to buy, Winchester ammo. Well, I found the glass slipper that fit my gun. I shot one box of 40, and walked them into the one inch bulls eye. I went back to bass pro and bought two boxes and went back to the range. Three boxes , 120 rounds of Winchester 2232 hp 45 gr in a one inch circle. Close enough. What this means to me is that the probability of hitting my target within a one inch circle every time at one hundred yards are very high. I even placed shots at 12-3-6-9 around the dot. What else can I say. My gun likes it. 🤠
@@johnholmes4960 You are very welcome, we are always happy to help and we want to answer questions and not create more confusion so we try to respond to every comment and question we get! So when it comes to Standard deviation it is in reference to the velocity, standard deviation is a measure of the amount of variation or dispersion of a set of values. It is simply a reference number to see how uniform the velocities are for a given load or velocity string. It can be a good indicator for a lot of things uniformity of powder burn brass uniformity and also how uniform your load is. A lot of people also get hung up on this number as well. That is true SAAMI was organized to set standards for ammunition. That is also true Pratt and Whitney were some of the first to use gauges and precision measuring tools. A very interesting and rich history behind that company. That is true the shooter certainly has a lot of work before the shot is made but once that bullet leaves the barrel the shooter is no longer a factor. That is what handloading is all about tailoring ammo to your rifle and making it more consistent and in most cases even cheaper than factory ammo. That is wise try out different ammo and see what your gun likes, you never know unless you try. Your gun certainly sounds like it likes it. Thanks for sharing and thank you for watching!
I think your missing the point of what the tool is used for. I use it to set up the die, so it sizes the case straight. you have to start with good brass, if its not uniform thickness especially in the neck your not going to fix any run out. I also use it to set up the bullet seater die also. The ram, shell holder and die all need to be inline to get a concentric case. straightening a crocked bullet in the case may work, but it seams to me its better to get it to come out of the die straight.
I am not sure how you could use this tool to set up your sizing die. if you want to full length size there is only one way to set the die. If you want to bump the shoulder there is no way adjust the die to reduce runout unless you had a decapping rod that was out of round then this indicator could show you that. However if you want to check case neck Concentricity you could do so with this gauge but Redding also makes a separate gauge made specifically for that. I would be curious to hear how you use this gauge to set up your dies? I just don't see how you could use this for that purpose. I could see you using a dial indicator to check runout on your press ram or a test indicator to check runout of your die and decapping rod or seating stem. Nothing was ever stated about straightening a bullet that is already seated either. Perhaps you are confused with the Redding instant indicator die? Either way thank you for watching and commenting, the feedback is always appreciated!
@@HandloaderTVI dont use a decapping die in the press. dont want the mess. thats a separate operation before cleaning the cases before sizing in another press. if you just screw in the die to the press, and are using the clip on the ram to hold the shell holder, it could not be straight. if you put a o-ring under the die, and a o-ring to hold the shell holder, now every thing can float. screwing down the die on a set up case, a little at a time to the desired set back, sets the die in line. also having a s die with the bushing floating will center the neck bushing straight to the case body. screw in a die but dont tighten it, and wiggle it. you will see the slop in the threads, and putting it in as i mention you can check for concentricity until you get it right. i use a turret head, so once i get it set right it stays. it might take a couple of set ups to get it that way. using the tool will tell you when you get it right. same for the bullet seater die. my mention of the bullet straighten was to another comment about an arbor press to do that. i dont think its a good idea, what does that do to your bullet tension? cant help it. in a nut shell, if your finished loads are not concentric, you have a problem, the tool will help you find the problem so you can fix it. www.sinclairintl.com/guntech/steps-to-minimize-bullet-run-out/detail.htm?lid=16099
@@ronporter1017 Ah I see what you are saying now and that makes perfect sense you bring up the age old debate of float verses no float. Some presses will have built in float for dies shell holders etc. The Forster Co-Ax is a prime example of floating the die. I have experimented with this and there is certainly validity to this in some cases. Then you also have presses like the Prezi and Area 419 Zero press which are machined to have zero float and there is validity to that as well with a well made press. You can certainly use this gauge to see how much runout you have with your current setup and as you said using good brass is critical for this. I also agree in full it does not make sense to straighten a round that already has a bullet seated. It is just messing up your neck tension in most cases it is better to eliminate it at the source whether it is in your press, your die Etc. That is an excellent article from sinclair I have read that before certainly worth the read.
I would like to kindly point out that in order to get an accurate reading on a concentricity gauge, in particular this Redding you must apply consistent pressure across the entire cartridge. That is why my hand is there. Hindsight being 20/20 we could have shot a few different angles however you can still read the gauge and see how much the needle is moving. We will certainly adjust accordingly for future videos. Thank you for watching! --Jeremiah
Indeed, but you also have to be careful not to effect your neck tension when correcting runout, better to get it right using quality dies and components if at all possible. Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment! --Jeremiah
This is the correct indicator, it is the exact dial indicator that came with this setup directly from Redding. It is accurate to .001" What makes you say it is the wrong gauge? It is very important to us that we provide the most accurate information possible to our subscribers.
@@HandloaderTV The type of indicator supplied in called a drop indicator. It is for measuring motion parallel to its shaft. The correct type is called a 'TEST' indicator which is used for motion across its tip such as shaft run out or surface anomalies. 'Ref: 58 yrs in the trade'
@@dragonflyfab8982 Ah I thought you meant that we were using an indicator that was not included with the kit. Yes that is true there are other indicators which are more suitable for this type of measurement. However Most of the other gauges also use this type of indicator and we have found that this one produces repeatable results when simply checking for uniformity across a batch of handloads. However we will be doing a video on another setup that does use a test indicator so keep your eyes peeled for that! Thank you for watching and thanks for the feedback!
The way the gauge is meant to be used places your hand in the way I should have done it a couple of different ways but it can be difficult to get an accurate reading if you hand is not putting even pressure on the cartridge as you check for runout. At any rate thank you for watching and taking the time to comment. We will certainly try to do better next time. --Jeremiah
While I do agree with you the camera angle could be better. As stated in the video uniform pressure is required to get an accurate reading and the gauge is designed to be very ergonomic and your hand is designed to be where it was in the video. This makes it very comfortable for checking concentricity however it does not work as well for filming and showing you what I am doing. If you would like to know more or see more details about this product give us a follow on Instagram and send us a message we would be happy to answer any questions you may have and showcase the product for you.
Have been subbed to magazine for 15 years, nice to see channel.
Glad to hear that, Thank you so much for your longstanding support we greatly appreciate it! It is because of good folks like you that we are able to produce high quality videos and magazines. We do not take that lightly and it means a lot to us! Thank you for watching! - Jeremiah
I happen to have a concentricity gauge (albeit the Hornady version) and find it both a blessing and a curse. Chasing perfection isn't really needed for a guy with a 300 yard max deer hunting habit, but learning from the tool can be fascinating.
The tool can help solidify or second guess your choice of dies and presses for instance.
All in all it gathered interesting information that ultimately is as important as you make it.
Nothing wrong with the Hornady version everyone has their preferences. I can whole heatedly relate to that statement. You can really start to chase your tail with this stuff and before you know it you are down a big dark rabbit hole.
In the end I think it is a great tool to check your dies and to check your press and how well the two are working together and you can take it as far as you want to. You decide how much runout is too much everyone has their own preferences. Thank you very much for watching and for commenting!
Redding is top quality stuff, as is their customer service. In 40yrs, i only had one issue. (this is where the importance of a concentricity tool is very important!)
I thought i had a bad Redding neck die one time, and Redding is minutes from me, so i drove over there. The fella there asked me if i had checked the press.
Come to find out, the ram in my Redding press was slightly out of spec. It had gotten slightly bent somehow, but no clue how. I`m not rough on my equipment.
They took a new press out of the box, checked it, was spot on, they handed me a new press right there without hesitation. That was about 30ys ago. No issues since.
I agree in full with you I use their stuff quite a bit and I tout them quite often on the channel but for good reason. The only issue I have ever had with them was I ordered a 30-06 MH die set from Brownells. It had the wrong sizing die in it one for a .303 British instead of 30-06. One call and 3 days later I had a brand new 30-06 sizing die. excellent customer service and excellent products. Thanks for sharing your experience It is always nice to hear from others and thank you for watching!
It would be interesting to see one of the Juenke (spelling?) units in operation. I believe John Barseness has mentioned them a few times. They basically help measure the concentricity of multi-component bullets INTERNALLY, which was said to make a big difference in gyroscopic stability - and, ultimately, group size. It seems perfectly logical, and I bet a lot of handloaders would purchase one if they were offered commercially.
We would love to put the Vern Juenke Machine to the test! We have written about it a few times in the magazine over the years and it is a very interesting concept. Based off our results from years of testing it makes a lot of sense. Inconsistent bullets usually yield larger groups while bullets of consistent construction will usually yield smaller groups with good loads. The only issue with covering this machine is acquiring one and assembling one as I am unaware of any fully assembled machines for sale. Taking the time to assemble one is very complicated and very time consuming without extensive knowledge of the system and wiring.
Thanks for this review! I love my Sinclair and RCBS units but did not like my Hornady. As an experiment, I once ran the same round across all three gauges. The Sinclair and RCBS units agreed with each other, at .002, while the Hornady read .006. I don't like the way the Hornady unit holds the cartridge. So I traded it at a gunshow. I'll probably get the Redding tool since I have three areas in my house where I "spin" ammo. Thanks again!
We have not had much experiance in house with the Hornady unit however the straightening feature looked very interesting. That is interesting about the differences in readings though! We have a new Hornady measurement station and we are working on a video for that in the future as well. Something we will have to keep an eye out for! No problem thank you very much for watching!
You make reference to bullet runout, but your testing the cartridge case minus a seated bullet. So may I suggest that you hold the case against the rolling balls, as you are but you place your dial indicator at several locations along the case side wall. Thus you should see if any wobble in the case. The case could be out of round, if so the case rolling on those ball bearings is going to give you a false reading at the neck that you are calling runout. If you test cases that were fired but not resized this method well show if your rifle chamber is out of round. If you test your cases after they have been resized you will be measuring the true nature of the die you used to resize that or those cases.
Bullet runout should be tested on a tool with a dial that holds the case as if it were in a rifle chamber with the bolt closed behind it, and a bullet point is supported at the other end. Then by placing the dial indicator on the bullet ogive, you measure how much off center that bullet is. That then becomes your intended runout measurement.
You have made an excellent observation this is true that an out of round case can effect the accuracy of the bullet runout when using this gauge. The Redding also does not use ball bearings to roll the cartridge it uses 4 posts to hold the cartridge and you roll the cartridge in the "V" that these posts make. We checked our case runout off camera on multiple gauges to make sure they had minimal runout. In fact you will see us use some of the same cartridges in other videos. Perhaps we should have mentioned that in the video but this was for demonstration purposes to show you how the gauge works. Redding actually makes a separate gauge for checking case neck runout. That is true you can run your unsized case over the gauge to check your chamber I do this a lot with .45-70 cases as the straight wall cases seem to be more prone to being off in comparison to the chamber of the rifle. There are not many gauges that hold the cartridge the way you have described the Hornady tool comes to mind but that is the only one I can think of off the top of my head. I think your method would work though and I am sure you have had good results from it.
Thank you for watching and thank you for sharing your personal experience!
Can this tool be used for measuring case neck runout? For example, let's say you didn't seat the bullet yet and you check the concentricity of the brass will the case run out be equivalent to the bullet run out?
Great question, usually bullet runout will be roughly twice as bad as neck runout. Of course this can vary and depends on your seating dies that you are using among other things but that is generally speaking what I have experienced. Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment! --Jeremiah
its the first time i have seen this type of gauge, id like to buy one here in the uk
They are the only manufacturer I am aware of that is making a slant bed concentricity gauge at this time. I know you can purchase it through Brownells UK for 150 or so Euros however I do believe they are back ordered currently.
Can you please move your hand/s out of the way so we can actually se what you are doing? Other then that good info, thanks.
I agree the camera angle could have been better, in order to get an accurate reading you have to keep uniform pressure on the cartridge and we also wanted to showcase the ergonomics of the gauge. Unfortunately that put my hand in a rather disruptive spot. We will refine that for future videos. Thanks for the feedback and thank you for watching!
TIR stands for Total indicator Reading not total indicator runout. TIR has been replaced with FIM "Full Indicator Movement". I have been a American Society For Quality "Certified Mechanical Inspector" for 40 years (since 5-10-1982), I do this for a living everyday, my work "Bible" is ASME Y14.5-1994 & the newer version 2008 I believe. The slant bed doesn't really provide any thing that makes the reading any more accurate than using a flat gage like the Sinclair International. It may make seeing the gage a bit easier if you do this standing up. Doing it sitting down with a flat gage like the Sinclair is going to or should give you the same reading. The slant is kind of gimmicky, but it's still a good tool. But given the choice between the Redding and the Sinclair, I'd go with the Sinclair. but that's just me and 40 years of experience.
Thank you for the correction I appreciate that! I do my best to get things correct when filming these things and from time to time I get my words mixed up. I appreciate the correction and the feedback. I do like the Sinclair gauge as well, I feel like the ergonomics of the slant bed are better overall and because of the slant bed it allows for checking ammo faster but that is just me I only have been doing this for 24 years and everyone is different and that is okay. It is nice to have the variety of different tools to fit everyone's preference. Thank you for watching and taking the time to watch and to comment! --Jeremiah
40 years doesn't necessarily mean anything, it's just the number "40". This is from a professional statistician of 29 years. Which doesn't mean much since "29" is just a number. Arbitrary quantities have no intrinsic value or imply wisdom, correctness or insight. But that's just me running off at the mouth.
@@lonebeagle That is true, I think what matters more is the actual wisdom and how much knowledge has actually been acquired in that said time frame. There is a lot that goes into that equation someone who has 12 years of experience could understand and do things better than someone with double that amount of time if circumstances were correct. At any rate I appreciate you taking the time to watch and comment it is always appreciated! --Jeremiah
Would have been nice to actually see where the indicator tip was set at.
What do you think about measuring runout on the case neck after sizing and before powder charging as a way select to the best cases? I love to handload and am into the details. thanks for your work.
If you are looking to get the most accuracy out of your cases we absolutely recommend sorting your cases and checking case neck run-out. Redding actually makes another gauge for case neck concentricity and it works very well for measuring run-out on the case necks before and after sizing. We have noticed that if your case necks have say .003" run-out then your bullet concentricity will likely be about double that. So having concentric case necks is important if you are seeking a higher degree of accuracy.
Wish you would have explained how to correct the runout.
That is a great question and it goes a little beyond the scope of this video, hopefully in the near future we will produce a video on how to correct run-out. It starts with your brass and dies though. Measure run-out before and after sizing of the case necks. Then check for bullet run-out which in our experience is usually doubled of whatever run-out is already in the case neck. There is a tool available from Hornady which is supposed to correct bullet run out perhaps this is another tool we can put to the test.
How do you correct the concenticity?
That is a great question and the answer is not quite as clear cut as you may think. Perhaps we should do a video dedicated to this subject. There are many factors that can contribute to concentricity. The brass and dies are both major contributing factors in concentricity. Selecting high quality dies will help keep the neck of the case concentric during sizing and a good seating die will help seat the bullet concentric. As far as correcting bullet runout there are a few options out there the Hornady concentricity gauge has a tool that is included to help straighten the bullet there is also a tool sold by NECO called the Cartridge alignment tool or CAT. This tool is used to help correct the concentricity of loaded ammo. However one should be careful when using these tools because they can effect neck tension. Thank you for watching and great question! --Jeremiah
Should note the info on where to get the items your showing & the $$
We appreciate the feedback we have considered doing it however we don't want to sound like we are trying to push products or a specific distributor. We strive to remain as Unbiased as possible, and prices can vary so much we would hate to give inaccurate information. Perhaps moving forward we could mention price at the time of filming though!
You should define what runout is.
I probably should have explained it a little more in depth but it is a subject I intend to cover more in depth in our how to handload series we are working on. Handloading 101 is already up and I am working on Handloading 102 next and that will probably go into detail about runout. I guess I assumed that folks interested in a Concentricity would already know what it is. I appreciate the suggestion and will certainly address runout in future videos. Thank you for taking the time to watch and comment! --Jeremiah
What do you do next to reduce the runout?
Great question, I think we will do a video detailing how to reduce run-out. In short there are a lot of variables that can effect run-out, your sizing dies, seating dies and brass all play a critical roll in bullet and case neck run-out. You can neck turn brass which can also help achieve uniform necks and reduce run-out.
Your view of the procedure is covered by your hand…… what is there to see?
Change camera angle to your left then we will be able to see the gage and what your doing.
Agreed the camera angle could have been a lot better in this video. We will certainly try to improve this in all future videos.
T.I.R. is Total Indicated Reading.
Ok....so.....what is the acceptable allowable tolerance? You say the words fine, but, what is the number exactly? Maybe even give me the true position. If the total indicated runout is three thousandths from an established value, as with everything, there is a tolerance number, not close enough or pretty close. Please give me a number to validate what you are trying to teach here for my safety and for others. In other words,”Number, Please”.
I wish I could give you a set standardized number however it really depends on your application and what kind of accuracy you are looking to get. Most benchrest shooters are looking for less than one thousandth of an inch total indicator runout (TIR). for PRS competition most guys are somewhere around 1-2 thousandths. However there is no safety concern with runout I have yet to see a case where runout has lead to pressure issues or anything like that. If you are looking to get pretty good accuracy I would suggest starting at a TIR of 1-3 thousandths and see how it shoots with a good load I find that is usually sufficient for my personal needs. However if you are shooting at extreme ranges or want one hole groups you may want less runout. It really is entirely up to the handloader and his personal accuracy standards. Thanks for commenting and I hope this helps and as always thank you for watching!
@@HandloaderTV sir, thanks for the in-depth reply. The more I learn about reloading ....the more I learn. I have seen videos on UA-cam,where some reloaders and shooters refer to a term called,” standard deviation”, which sounds impressive. But I am thinking it’s more like “what’s the probability” that the next shot is going to hit in the exact same place. The variables are huge. Maybe get the human factor out of that equation. Mainly get the testosterone out. Let the mechanics of shooting and the chemistry of the powder do it’s job untouched by human hands be the only thing that determines the outcome.
If you looks at the SAMMY SPECS of any given caliber, in order to buy guns and ammo to shoot for recreation or defense, this philosophy goes back to president Lincoln and the civil war. Two men, Pratt and Whitney, coined a term called ,”interchangeability” for the battle field fire arms, so the troops could repair their arms in the field with spare parts. During the civil war Pratt and Whitney were already measuring in the millionths of an inch. No matter how small, everything has a tolerance, except when it comes to making change with money. Money has zero tolerance.
Once a shooter squeezes off that round, the shooters job is finished. Now it becomes a guess where that thing is going to hit. No one knows until it stops. All we can do is hope, guess, pray...whatever. Only a very lucky few, and the few may be one person in a million will reload and drill holes with what they remade and put through a rifle that the rifle likes consistently. That repeatability factor should be shared. In some small way, every firearm is just a little different because of the tolerances allowed during manufacturing. Finding that “ONE” is the hard part.
I bought a used .223 Remington 700 BDL with a heavy barrel. I feel the guy got rid of it because it did not hold a pattern. So, one day I went to my local bass pro and bought a box of everything they had, and I went to my local range. I was very disappointed nothing was getting better. My last box was supposed to be the worst thing to buy, Winchester ammo. Well, I found the glass slipper that fit my gun. I shot one box of 40, and walked them into the one inch bulls eye. I went back to bass pro and bought two boxes and went back to the range. Three boxes , 120 rounds of Winchester 2232 hp 45 gr in a one inch circle.
Close enough. What this means to me is that the probability of hitting my target within a one inch circle every time at one hundred yards are very high. I even placed shots at 12-3-6-9 around the dot. What else can I say. My gun likes it. 🤠
@@johnholmes4960 You are very welcome, we are always happy to help and we want to answer questions and not create more confusion so we try to respond to every comment and question we get! So when it comes to Standard deviation it is in reference to the velocity, standard deviation is a measure of the amount of variation or dispersion of a set of values. It is simply a reference number to see how uniform the velocities are for a given load or velocity string. It can be a good indicator for a lot of things uniformity of powder burn brass uniformity and also how uniform your load is. A lot of people also get hung up on this number as well.
That is true SAAMI was organized to set standards for ammunition. That is also true Pratt and Whitney were some of the first to use gauges and precision measuring tools. A very interesting and rich history behind that company.
That is true the shooter certainly has a lot of work before the shot is made but once that bullet leaves the barrel the shooter is no longer a factor. That is what handloading is all about tailoring ammo to your rifle and making it more consistent and in most cases even cheaper than factory ammo.
That is wise try out different ammo and see what your gun likes, you never know unless you try. Your gun certainly sounds like it likes it. Thanks for sharing and thank you for watching!
I think your missing the point of what the tool is used for. I use it to set up the die, so it sizes the case straight. you have to start with good brass, if its not uniform thickness especially in the neck your not going to fix any run out. I also use it to set up the bullet seater die also. The ram, shell holder and die all need to be inline to get a concentric case. straightening a crocked bullet in the case may work, but it seams to me its better to get it to come out of the die straight.
I am not sure how you could use this tool to set up your sizing die. if you want to full length size there is only one way to set the die. If you want to bump the shoulder there is no way adjust the die to reduce runout unless you had a decapping rod that was out of round then this indicator could show you that. However if you want to check case neck Concentricity you could do so with this gauge but Redding also makes a separate gauge made specifically for that. I would be curious to hear how you use this gauge to set up your dies? I just don't see how you could use this for that purpose. I could see you using a dial indicator to check runout on your press ram or a test indicator to check runout of your die and decapping rod or seating stem. Nothing was ever stated about straightening a bullet that is already seated either. Perhaps you are confused with the Redding instant indicator die? Either way thank you for watching and commenting, the feedback is always appreciated!
@@HandloaderTVI dont use a decapping die in the press. dont want the mess. thats a separate operation before cleaning the cases before sizing in another press. if you just screw in the die to the press, and are using the clip on the ram to hold the shell holder, it could not be straight. if you put a o-ring under the die, and a o-ring to hold the shell holder, now every thing can float. screwing down the die on a set up case, a little at a time to the desired set back, sets the die in line. also having a s die with the bushing floating will center the neck bushing straight to the case body. screw in a die but dont tighten it, and wiggle it. you will see the slop in the threads, and putting it in as i mention you can check for concentricity until you get it right. i use a turret head, so once i get it set right it stays. it might take a couple of set ups to get it that way. using the tool will tell you when you get it right. same for the bullet seater die. my mention of the bullet straighten was to another comment about an arbor press to do that. i dont think its a good idea, what does that do to your bullet tension? cant help it. in a nut shell, if your finished loads are not concentric, you have a problem, the tool will help you find the problem so you can fix it.
www.sinclairintl.com/guntech/steps-to-minimize-bullet-run-out/detail.htm?lid=16099
@@ronporter1017 Ah I see what you are saying now and that makes perfect sense you bring up the age old debate of float verses no float. Some presses will have built in float for dies shell holders etc. The Forster Co-Ax is a prime example of floating the die. I have experimented with this and there is certainly validity to this in some cases. Then you also have presses like the Prezi and Area 419 Zero press which are machined to have zero float and there is validity to that as well with a well made press. You can certainly use this gauge to see how much runout you have with your current setup and as you said using good brass is critical for this. I also agree in full it does not make sense to straighten a round that already has a bullet seated. It is just messing up your neck tension in most cases it is better to eliminate it at the source whether it is in your press, your die Etc. That is an excellent article from sinclair I have read that before certainly worth the read.
Who ever is I'm charge of video production needs to tell the guy to get his friggin hands out of the way. So we can see every thing that's going on!
I would like to kindly point out that in order to get an accurate reading on a concentricity gauge, in particular this Redding you must apply consistent pressure across the entire cartridge. That is why my hand is there. Hindsight being 20/20 we could have shot a few different angles however you can still read the gauge and see how much the needle is moving. We will certainly adjust accordingly for future videos. Thank you for watching! --Jeremiah
that's nice to know the very high runnouts but when you find out then what ?
only HORNADY has that answer
Indeed, but you also have to be careful not to effect your neck tension when correcting runout, better to get it right using quality dies and components if at all possible. Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment! --Jeremiah
The indicator is the wrong type!
This is the correct indicator, it is the exact dial indicator that came with this setup directly from Redding. It is accurate to .001" What makes you say it is the wrong gauge? It is very important to us that we provide the most accurate information possible to our subscribers.
@@HandloaderTV The type of indicator supplied in called a drop indicator. It is for measuring motion parallel to its shaft. The correct type is called a 'TEST' indicator which is used for motion across its tip such as shaft run out or surface anomalies. 'Ref: 58 yrs in the trade'
@@dragonflyfab8982 Ah I thought you meant that we were using an indicator that was not included with the kit. Yes that is true there are other indicators which are more suitable for this type of measurement. However Most of the other gauges also use this type of indicator and we have found that this one produces repeatable results when simply checking for uniformity across a batch of handloads. However we will be doing a video on another setup that does use a test indicator so keep your eyes peeled for that! Thank you for watching and thanks for the feedback!
move your hand out of the way
The way the gauge is meant to be used places your hand in the way I should have done it a couple of different ways but it can be difficult to get an accurate reading if you hand is not putting even pressure on the cartridge as you check for runout. At any rate thank you for watching and taking the time to comment. We will certainly try to do better next time. --Jeremiah
Get your hand out of the way.Bad video recording angle. Do-over.
While I do agree with you the camera angle could be better. As stated in the video uniform pressure is required to get an accurate reading and the gauge is designed to be very ergonomic and your hand is designed to be where it was in the video. This makes it very comfortable for checking concentricity however it does not work as well for filming and showing you what I am doing. If you would like to know more or see more details about this product give us a follow on Instagram and send us a message we would be happy to answer any questions you may have and showcase the product for you.