You are unfortunately naive :-) Easily taking the bait.. If you knew the first thing about the technology, you would not write this. It is very unpractical and costs are extreme in comparison.
@@tombowman2802 Do NOT believe that because you can make something work technically - so without it blowing up, as you write - that it is worth pursuing. What if cost is a factor 10? I don't know the future, but I know more about it than you having worked in exactly this field for 35 years. 30 years back we did this shit onboard a car with a fuelcell. No problem.. just the problem of picking up the bill..
I bow to your evident superiority. Merely noting that naysayers are always right (until they are wrong. I remember when experts said you couldn’t run cars economically on unleaded fuel.) I guess the apparently promising Ecojet project is doomed too then. Why on earth don’t more people listen to you I wonder?
Interesting, but ... Hydrogen fuel cell technology to power electric motors is well proven engineering. It is clean, efficient and reliable. But this is not the challenge for a hydrogen future. It's producing clean hydrogen and distributing it widely. Over 95% of all hydrogen produced to day requires conversion from methane, an energy intensive process. Once produced it has to be transported in cryogenic vessels, which are energy demanding and often diesel powered! It is very, very challenging to pipeline hydrogen as it makes the pipes brittle, tending to encourage leaks and major breaks. Hydrogen is very flammable and is very easy to ignite. Every hydrogen delivery station has the potential to emulate the Hindenburg. Would you like one in your town? In your neighborhood? Think about it.
It is also really inefficient. Especially if you want to make it sustainable. Starting with electricity, making H2, compressing it, making electricity again to drive the motor. If it is not really needed, using batteries is much more efficient. I am surprised that they did not just use batteries in this application.
Solar generated hydrogen is the only way to create Green power. Otherwise you are just kicking the Can down the road so to speak...... Still have the issue of a highly explosive Fuel containment, but Rome wasn't built in a Day....... and the Status Quo is not sustainable.
Agree - but only as far as it goes. Congrats on the Kiwi input into this technology. However, as has been mentioned in other posts, I would be interested on the supply chain backing this technology. How many boats support a race? How many of the boats have ICE engines? How is the Hydrogen produced? If it is grey hydrogen produced from hydrocarbons then don't bother. If it is green hydrogen what are the transport miles (using ICE engines) to deliver this? Agree the photos/videos produced by this tech are impressive but we need more info before taking this at face value that this is a "good thing".
Cool stuff ! 👍👌 How far technology has come , even within the last 25 years , and to imagine that it will even evolve beyond that current high tech status... To me this America's Cup and SailGP are way better than F1 🙌
It depends how it is produced. There are prototype plants producing hydrogen directly from water using sunlight, other plants produce it by splitting hydrocarbons. It's early days for hydrogen, but the ultimate aim is solar (or wind) cracking of water directly in to hydrogen and oxygen.
It’s a good concept, so long as the hydrogen used is Green hydrogen. That is, the hydrogen used is derived from a process of using green energy in the hydrogen production process. That is, splitting the hydrogen out of sea water, first by desalination with the desalination plant powered by solar energy, then the hydrogen split from the oxygen via electrolysis, again with the process powered by solar. Then you have true zero emissions hydrogen.
Look, I love the boat, and the idea behind it. But... Without 100% renewable electricity, Hydrogen has a big carbon footprint, because cracking H from H2O take a LOT of electricity. Storing the stuff is very difficult, and it leaks out of any container, and it boils off quickly if it's condensed into a liquid. It explodes at the slightest contact with oxygen and an ignition source (Think Hindenberg), and it's only used in spacecraft, because the same hydrogen which produces electricity in a fuelcell also produces clean drinking water as the exhaust.
Bragging about being green and using hydrogen. Meanwhile building everything out of carbon fibre which uses how much more energy to produce than steel or aluminium? About 15X.
if only the new boat ran on coal directly the you could call it part off the energy cycle . Hydrogen fuel too make and store is 100 time more costly and it off gases through any man made materials
those are the support boats. They are equipment and personnel carriers and are not permitted within the boundary during racing. There are 5 to 6 chase zeros on the course during racing. Two coaching/analytical teams for each syndicate, media boats and the officials boats. In previous cups, they used outboard CC's for management crews.
The outboard powered " support boats" do not chase, on the race course so before you start crashing your key pad next time look and listen to what they are talking about, these boats are CHASE BOATS and first responders in case of emergencies no wake on the race course, great television because they can get virtually right next to the yachts during the race, and you hardly notice them in the broadcast
Total lemon, all the teams had to build one, at 2m EUR cost, and they all sat around for nearly all the lead up, youth, and womens events. They only started moving at the start of the AC
Yes and precisely. You? 😂 "Splitting a mole of liquid water to produce a mole of hydrogen at 25°C requires 285.8 kJ of energy-237.2 kJ as electricity and 48.6 kJ as heat; there is no way around this fact." Source: Hydrogen Production Fundamentals and Case Study Summaries Preprint by: K.W. Harrison, R. Remick, and G.D. Martin National Renewable Energy Laboratory; and by: A. Hoskin, Natural Resources Canada for 18th World Hydrogen Energy Conference in Essen, Germany May 16-21, 2010 Details: Calculating Fuel Cell System Efficiency: The standard method for calculating the efficiency of a fuel cell power plant or other electrical generation device is to divide the electricity produced by the HHV of the fuel used. This is a reasonable method fo calculating power plant efficiency, because the power-plant operator purchases fuel (natural gas is sold by heating value) and sells electricity. Therefore, there is a maximum theoretical limit to the electrical efficiency attainable by a fuel cell system represented by the Gibbs free energy divided by the heat of combustion of the fuel. In the case of the hydrogen fuel cell this value is the Gibbs free energy/HHV (237.2 kJ/mole ∕ 285.8 kJ/mole = 83%). The use of HHV here is in keeping with the method used in the United States to calculate efficiency for internal combustion (IC) engine/generators and gas turbine/generator systems. Some U.S. developers of high-temperature fuel cells, however, prefer the European convention and instead use the LHV of hydrogen for efficiency calculation. The JANAF Tables list the Gibbs free energy for the formation of water vapor from hydrogen and oxygen as 228.6 kJ/mole, so the maximum theoretical efficiency of a complete fuel cell system based on LHV of hydrogen is 228.6 kJ/mole ∕ 241.8 kJ/mole or 94.5%. Using the LHV convention for calculating the efficiency of an electrical generator always yields numbers greater than those yielded by calculations using the HHV for the same system. When quoting electrical efficiency of an electric generator it's important to indicate whether it's based on the HHV or the LHV calculation method. Practical fuel cells cannot achieve these maximum electrical efficiency numbers because of internal resistance losses. For example, a practical fuel cell operating near its maximum power output might be able to produce only 154 kJ of electricity per mole of hydrogen consumed, with the rest of the heating value appearing as heat produced by the fuel cell. The calculation for such a fuel cell is: 154 kJ/mole ∕ 285.8 kJ/mole = 54% efficient (HHV). The remaining 46% of the energy produced can be recovered from the fuel cell system as co-generated heat. Voltage Efficiency of Electrolysis Cells and Stacks: A problem exists, however. Using this approach to calculate the maximum thermodynamic efficiency of an electrolysis cell operating "reversibly" produces nonsense numbers that exceed 100%: (HHV) 285.8 kJ/mole ∕ 237.2 kJ/mole = 120.5% (LHV) 241.8 kJ/mole ∕ 228.6 kJ/mole = 105.8% The problem is that it takes both electricity and heat to split water electrochemically and the heat is not being included in the above calculation of the energy input. Although the thermodynamic voltage for splitting water under standard conditions is the same (1.229 volts) as the fuel-cell reaction, practical electrolysis cells like fuel cells-do not operate near this voltage. Whereas the practical fuel cell operates well below 1.23 volts (in the range of 0.750 to 0.900 volts), the practical electrolysis cell operates above this voltage in the range of 1.60 to 2.00 volts. System efficiencies of practical systems calculated using the above approach, although inflated, always are less than 100%; therefore, the problem is not obvious. It is when we attempt to develop a method for calculating individual cell and multiple cell stack efficiency that we see the problem. Water Electrolysis: Water electrolysis is the reverse of the fuel cell reaction. In fact, many fuel cells based on PEM and solid-oxide technology can work both as a fuel cell OR a water electrolysis cell, depending on the direction of the electrical current. The equation for the water electrolysis reaction simply is the reverse of the fuel cell equation. The efficiency calculations, therefore, can be inverted as well. The efficiency of an electrolysis system, for example, can be calculated as the heating value of the hydrogen produced divided by the electrical energy input. Splitting a mole of liquid water to produce a mole of hydrogen at 25°C requires 285.8 kJ of energy-237.2 kJ as electricity and 48.6 kJ as heat; there is no way around this fact. In PEM and alkaline electrolysis cells the heat requirement is supplied from the extra heat generated, due to internal resistance as the electric and ionic currents flow through the cell. This heat requirement is directly traceable back to the electricity supplied. In other words, 285.8 kJ-not 237.2 kJ-of electricity is the minimum required to split water in these cells. This translates into a cell voltage of 1.481 volts, not the 1.229 volts used in calculating the theoretical maximum electrical efficiency of a fuel cell. The electrochemical potential (standard potential) corresponding to the HHV is 1.481 V/cell as shown below. This represents the thermoneutral voltage at which hydrogen and oxygen are produced with 100% thermal efficiency (i.e., no waste heat produced from the reaction). This is determined using Faraday’s Law, and dividing the HHV (285,840 J/mole) by the Faraday constant (F = 96,485 coulombs mole-1) and the number of electrons needed to create a molecule of hydrogen (z = 2). 🎉
not only energy which can be much greener than power generated with outboards, but hydrogen transportation is a big co2 emitter. one of coolest thing I found recently - Hydgene startup - producing hydrogen from any biocompostable materials
This is the best ! What a concept turned into reality that has and will make such a difference !!
So proud of my brother Mike being involved with team nz hydrogen chase boats.
Fantastic. Here’s an AC innovation that should be used much more widely.
You are unfortunately naive :-) Easily taking the bait.. If you knew the first thing about the technology, you would not write this. It is very unpractical and costs are extreme in comparison.
Do you know the future? Some tech succeeds, some doesn’t. These things are running around without blowing up already.
@@tombowman2802 Do NOT believe that because you can make something work technically - so without it blowing up, as you write - that it is worth pursuing. What if cost is a factor 10? I don't know the future, but I know more about it than you having worked in exactly this field for 35 years. 30 years back we did this shit onboard a car with a fuelcell. No problem.. just the problem of picking up the bill..
I bow to your evident superiority. Merely noting that naysayers are always right (until they are wrong. I remember when experts said you couldn’t run cars economically on unleaded fuel.) I guess the apparently promising Ecojet project is doomed too then. Why on earth don’t more people listen to you I wonder?
It’s certainly not what we hope for yet, but it is a giant step in the right direction.
Peter Lester, the King of "Sail Commentator" 🤙🏻🤙🏻🤙🏻🤙🏻
Interesting, but ...
Hydrogen fuel cell technology to power electric motors is well proven engineering. It is clean, efficient and reliable. But this is not the challenge for a hydrogen future. It's producing clean hydrogen and distributing it widely.
Over 95% of all hydrogen produced to day requires conversion from methane, an energy intensive process. Once produced it has to be transported in cryogenic vessels, which are energy demanding and often diesel powered! It is very, very challenging to pipeline hydrogen as it makes the pipes brittle, tending to encourage leaks and major breaks. Hydrogen is very flammable and is very easy to ignite. Every hydrogen delivery station has the potential to emulate the Hindenburg. Would you like one in your town? In your neighborhood? Think about it.
It is also really inefficient. Especially if you want to make it sustainable. Starting with electricity, making H2, compressing it, making electricity again to drive the motor. If it is not really needed, using batteries is much more efficient. I am surprised that they did not just use batteries in this application.
Solar generated hydrogen is the only way to create Green power. Otherwise you are just kicking the Can down the road so to speak...... Still have the issue of a highly explosive Fuel containment, but Rome wasn't built in a Day....... and the Status Quo is not sustainable.
@@johanlugthart7782 Or has the hydrogen come from oil, which a large percentage is !
Cool. It's amazing how ETNZ did so much in the last 3 years on top of winning the cup.
Need a race between all these A.C hydrogen boats
All that and you DID NOT show the electric propulsion system, it's location, it's power output, its design (brushless, induction, etc.). WHY?
its a protype and a trade secret ?
@@KasunTalwatta trade? These are not commercial products
Shoosh! Its a secret! 😊
But the team support boats have 4x400HP outboards!
Not viable support vessel! Cannot carry a decent load like the engineers and sails
Hopefully this is green hydrogen...
It's colourless and odourless. Green 😝. Produces water as a byproduct I believe.
@@alasdairslade1390 Depends how it is manufactured... Black Hydrogen is also a thing...
Agree - but only as far as it goes. Congrats on the Kiwi input into this technology. However, as has been mentioned in other posts, I would be interested on the supply chain backing this technology. How many boats support a race? How many of the boats have ICE engines? How is the Hydrogen produced? If it is grey hydrogen produced from hydrocarbons then don't bother. If it is green hydrogen what are the transport miles (using ICE engines) to deliver this? Agree the photos/videos produced by this tech are impressive but we need more info before taking this at face value that this is a "good thing".
Cool stuff ! 👍👌
How far technology has come , even within the last 25 years , and to imagine that it will even evolve beyond that current high tech status...
To me this America's Cup and SailGP are way better than F1 🙌
Fantastic!
Awesome boat great video
Toyota is the best to produce this hydrogen motor
Its not a hydrogen engine. Its an electric motor.
where is the prop? would like to see underneth one of these
Really exciting, inspiring.
very very cool innovation for broadcasting 🤩
ok now tell us how much CO2 do the helicopters filming output per hour. hint: its more than 400KG/hour.
😥😥😥😥
Thanks, Debby Downer! The whole game is maintaining the facade of a luxury belief system, so SSSHHH. 🤫
Hydrogen powered helicopters might have been a bit of stretch. One step forward at a time.
Some of the footage is actually coming from drones which are electric.
@@necron1050 Electricity in Barcelona is provided by a natural gas thermal plant producing 850 megawatts of fossil fuel power…
What is the impact of producing hydrogen???
It depends how it is produced. There are prototype plants producing hydrogen directly from water using sunlight, other plants produce it by splitting hydrocarbons. It's early days for hydrogen, but the ultimate aim is solar (or wind) cracking of water directly in to hydrogen and oxygen.
Nothing like producing petrol!
Wests and helmets would be lovely on such boat.
It’s a good concept, so long as the hydrogen used is Green hydrogen. That is, the hydrogen used is derived from a process of using green energy in the hydrogen production process.
That is, splitting the hydrogen out of sea water, first by desalination with the desalination plant powered by solar energy, then the hydrogen split from the oxygen via electrolysis, again with the process powered by solar. Then you have true zero emissions hydrogen.
Impressive technology 🙌👍
Where can I buy one of these? I need one now. They look like so much fun.
Look, I love the boat, and the idea behind it. But...
Without 100% renewable electricity, Hydrogen has a big carbon footprint, because cracking H from H2O take a LOT of electricity. Storing the stuff is very difficult, and it leaks out of any container, and it boils off quickly if it's condensed into a liquid. It explodes at the slightest contact with oxygen and an ignition source (Think Hindenberg), and it's only used in spacecraft, because the same hydrogen which produces electricity in a fuelcell also produces clean drinking water as the exhaust.
Amazing Kiwi ingenuity!😮 well done Team NZ🎉
All teams are struggling with these and its a gimmick to fund team NZ. Big ribs with 4 x 400HP engines take the yachts on plane
Why aren't drones being used for aerial footage?
Time and speed in the air would not be compatible !
Cool technology
Bragging about being green and using hydrogen.
Meanwhile building everything out of carbon fibre which uses how much more energy to produce than steel or aluminium? About 15X.
Very impressive development by Team NZ.
Wonder how much each of these chase boats costs
So, when are we going to see that chase boat race we voted for? 😁
Is the hydrogen being produced with renewable energy? Also, can I have a ride? (-8
if only the new boat ran on coal directly the you could call it part off the energy cycle .
Hydrogen fuel too make and store is 100 time more costly and it off gases through any man made materials
The actual chase boats being used on the race days have 4 petrol outboards on the back , this is total BS greenwashing
those are the support boats. They are equipment and personnel carriers and are not permitted within the boundary during racing. There are 5 to 6 chase zeros on the course during racing. Two coaching/analytical teams for each syndicate, media boats and the officials boats. In previous cups, they used outboard CC's for management crews.
The outboard powered " support boats" do not chase, on the race course so before you start crashing your key pad next time look and listen to what they are talking about, these boats are CHASE BOATS and first responders in case of emergencies no wake on the race course, great television because they can get virtually right next to the yachts during the race, and you hardly notice them in the broadcast
Total lemon, all the teams had to build one, at 2m EUR cost, and they all sat around for nearly all the lead up, youth, and womens events. They only started moving at the start of the AC
Do you have any idea the energy it takes to produce Hydrogen?
Yes and precisely. You? 😂
"Splitting a mole of liquid water to produce a mole of hydrogen at 25°C requires 285.8 kJ of energy-237.2 kJ as electricity and 48.6 kJ as heat; there is no way around this fact."
Source:
Hydrogen Production Fundamentals and Case Study Summaries
Preprint by:
K.W. Harrison, R. Remick, and G.D. Martin National Renewable Energy Laboratory; and by: A. Hoskin, Natural Resources Canada for 18th World Hydrogen Energy Conference in Essen, Germany May 16-21, 2010
Details:
Calculating Fuel Cell System Efficiency: The standard method for calculating the efficiency of a fuel cell power plant or other electrical generation device is to divide the electricity produced by the HHV of the fuel used. This is a reasonable method fo calculating power plant efficiency, because the power-plant operator purchases fuel (natural gas is sold by heating value) and sells electricity.
Therefore, there is a maximum theoretical limit to the electrical efficiency attainable by a fuel cell system represented by the Gibbs free energy divided by the heat of combustion of the fuel. In the case of the hydrogen fuel cell this value is the Gibbs free energy/HHV (237.2 kJ/mole ∕ 285.8 kJ/mole = 83%). The use of HHV here is in keeping with the method used in the United States to calculate efficiency for internal combustion (IC) engine/generators and gas turbine/generator systems. Some U.S. developers of high-temperature fuel cells, however, prefer the European convention and instead use the LHV of hydrogen for efficiency calculation. The JANAF Tables list the Gibbs free energy for the formation of water vapor from hydrogen and oxygen as 228.6 kJ/mole, so the maximum theoretical efficiency of a complete fuel cell system based on LHV of hydrogen is 228.6 kJ/mole ∕ 241.8 kJ/mole or 94.5%. Using the LHV convention for calculating the efficiency of an electrical generator always yields numbers greater than those yielded by calculations using the HHV for the same system. When quoting electrical efficiency of an electric generator it's important to indicate whether it's based on the HHV or the LHV calculation method.
Practical fuel cells cannot achieve these maximum electrical efficiency numbers because of internal resistance losses. For example, a practical fuel cell operating near its maximum power output might be able to produce only 154 kJ of electricity per mole of hydrogen consumed, with the rest of the heating value appearing as heat produced by the fuel cell. The calculation for such a fuel cell is: 154 kJ/mole ∕ 285.8 kJ/mole = 54% efficient (HHV). The remaining 46% of the energy produced can be recovered from the fuel cell system as co-generated heat.
Voltage Efficiency of Electrolysis Cells and Stacks: A problem exists, however. Using this approach to calculate the maximum thermodynamic efficiency of an electrolysis cell operating "reversibly" produces nonsense numbers that exceed 100%:
(HHV) 285.8 kJ/mole ∕ 237.2 kJ/mole = 120.5%
(LHV) 241.8 kJ/mole ∕ 228.6 kJ/mole = 105.8%
The problem is that it takes both electricity and heat to split water electrochemically and the heat is not being included in the above calculation of the energy input.
Although the thermodynamic voltage for splitting water under standard conditions is the same (1.229 volts) as the fuel-cell reaction, practical electrolysis cells like fuel cells-do not operate near this voltage. Whereas the practical fuel cell operates well below 1.23 volts (in the range of 0.750 to 0.900 volts), the practical electrolysis cell operates above this voltage in the range of 1.60 to 2.00 volts. System efficiencies of practical systems calculated using the above approach, although inflated, always are less than 100%; therefore, the problem is not obvious.
It is when we attempt to develop a method for calculating individual cell and multiple cell stack efficiency that we see the problem.
Water Electrolysis: Water electrolysis is the reverse of the fuel cell reaction. In fact, many fuel cells based on PEM and solid-oxide technology can work both as a fuel cell OR a water electrolysis cell, depending on the direction of the electrical current. The equation for the water electrolysis reaction simply is the reverse of the fuel cell equation. The efficiency calculations, therefore, can be inverted as well. The efficiency of an electrolysis system, for example, can be calculated as the heating value of the hydrogen produced divided by
the electrical energy input.
Splitting a mole of liquid water to produce a mole of hydrogen at 25°C requires 285.8 kJ of energy-237.2 kJ as electricity and 48.6 kJ as heat; there is no way around this fact.
In PEM and alkaline electrolysis cells the heat requirement is supplied from the extra heat generated, due to internal resistance as the electric and ionic currents flow through the cell. This heat requirement is directly traceable back to the electricity supplied. In other words, 285.8 kJ-not 237.2 kJ-of electricity is the minimum required to split water in these cells. This translates into a cell voltage of 1.481 volts, not the 1.229 volts used in calculating the theoretical maximum electrical efficiency of a fuel cell. The electrochemical potential (standard potential) corresponding to the HHV is 1.481 V/cell as shown below. This represents the thermoneutral voltage at which hydrogen and oxygen are produced with 100% thermal efficiency (i.e., no waste heat produced from the reaction). This is determined using Faraday’s Law, and dividing the HHV (285,840 J/mole) by the Faraday constant (F = 96,485 coulombs mole-1) and the number of electrons needed to create a molecule of hydrogen (z = 2).
🎉
@@irtnyc no that's why I asked! Thanks for the answer.
💥👏👌🇳🇿@@irtnyc
not only energy which can be much greener than power generated with outboards, but hydrogen transportation is a big co2 emitter. one of coolest thing I found recently - Hydgene startup - producing hydrogen from any biocompostable materials
@@irtnyc Exactly, but the press and plebs switch off and say it's wonderful !
Go kiwis 🥝 💪 bring the thropy 🏆 home to AOTEAROALAND 2024 🎉😊
Awesome guys
🤴
Peter Lester you are spitze 😂