That he would abandon this shows so much artistic integrity -- he decided it wasn't as good as 5 & 4 and yet still it's very "beethovenian" in sound and gripping in that way...
Absolutely, it has the Beethoven beat, which is unique to Beethoven. That for me is the signature of authenticity in all of his music, especially after the Eroica. It is a signature which why for me he is my favourite composer. It beats at the spirit and soul.
Absolutely wonderful. There are many stirring and captivating musical ideas in this fragment and we are left to wonder what a magnificent sixth piano concerto could have come out of this. The other piano concertos of Beethoven were all once at this embryonic stage of development. Perhaps the cancellation of the planned concert later that year resulted in Beethoven leaving it aside, perhaps the piece raised difficulties that Beethoven needed more time to resolve. We get a glimpse of Beethoven's process of composition - the great visions of his unique genius taking shape and the labor it took to fully realize them. There is something special here, and we can appreciate it for what it is, but can only wonder at what might have been.
It's great to hear this piece, whatever (usual) caveats there may be... Is this recording taken from the April 2015 concert and, if so, which orchestra is accompanying ? I think the pianist is Frau Haider-Dechant ? I think if Beethoven had completed this concerto, it would be as much a milestone in music as his third symphony. I am no professional musician, but it seems to "stand apart" from the preceding piano concerti. Almost Schumannesque, at moments, but slightly less like the Schumann concerto, and more like Schumann's other two concertante pieces for piano & orchestra (if that makes sense !).
It is certainly interesting to hear this realisation. There are many authentic sounding Beethovenisms within the score. Based on the commentary about the available material, it is probably as close as we will get to what Beethoven would have done had he completed the movement himself - that, of course, we will never know!
There are one or two places where the balance between the left and right hand of the piano are inconsistent, noticeably about 12:50 to 13:08, where the right hand overpowers the rippling semiquavers in the left hand, as well as at 13:26 to 13:33 when the left hand is louder than the right, where clearly they should be the same.
This clearly midi-played demonstration shows just how important a good conductor, combined with people who know what they're doing in studios, and, of course, real musicians taking part, is. It's very messy, and in many places just doesn't reflect Beethoven at all. I've never heard this before, and never even seen it mentioned in any books, so I'm naturally intrigued to find out more about it.
Not obsessed but definitely noticed it. Its the passage Beethoven would NOT have written. Nothing wrong with it, it just isn't Beethoven, especially at that stage. Unimaginative melody and cliche treatment. But it's brief and we get back on track.
희빈 장씨(1659∼1701) : 조선 19대왕 숙종의 후궁. 본관은 인동(仁同)이다. 역관 장현(張炫)의 종질녀이다. 어머니의 정부(情夫)였던 조사석(趙師錫)과 종친인 동평군 이항(東平君 李杭)의 주선으로 궁녀로 들어가 숙종의 총애를 독차지했다. 1686년(숙종 12) 숙원(淑媛)이 되었다. 1688년 소의(昭儀)로 승진하고 왕자 이윤(李昀: 뒤의 景宗)을 낳았다. 왕은 기뻐하여 세자로 봉하려 했다. 그러나 송시열(宋時烈) 등 당시 정권을 잡고 있던 서인이 지지하지 않으므로 남인들의 원조를 얻어 책봉하려 했다. 이에 서인의 노론·소론은 모두 왕비 민씨(閔氏)가 나이가 많지 않으니 후일을 기다리자고 주장하였다. 숙종은 듣지 않고 1689년 정월에 이윤을 세자로 봉하고, 장소의는 희빈으로 승격했다. 이 때 송시열이 세자로 봉하는 것이 아직 이르다고 상소하였다. 왕은 이미 명호(名號)가 결정된 다음에 이런 의견을 말하는 것은 무슨 일이냐고 진노했다. 이에 남인 이현기(李玄紀)·남치훈(南致薰)·윤빈(尹彬) 등이 송시열의 상소를 논박하며 파직시켜 제주도로 유배하게 하고 다시 사사(賜死)하게 하였다. 그러나 송시열은 중로 정읍으로 이배(移配)되었다가 사약을 받았다. 이 밖에 서인의 영수들도 파직 또는 유배를 면하지 못했다. 반면에 남인의 권대운(權大運)·김덕원(金德遠) 등이 등용되었다. 이 정권의 교체를 기사환국 또는 기사사화라고 한다. 이 해 5월에 민비를 폐하고 장희빈을 왕비로 삼으려 할 때 서인 오두인(吳斗寅)·박태보(朴泰輔) 등 80여 명이 상소하여 이를 반대했다. 그러나 이들은 참혹한 형문을 받게 되니 이후 정국은 남인의 세상이 되었다. 기사환국 후 시간이 흐르면서 숙종은 폐비사건을 후회하게 되었다. 그러던 중 1694년 서인의 김춘택(金春澤)·한중혁(韓重爀) 등이 폐비 복위운동을 꾀하다가 고발되었다. 이 때 남인의 영수요 당시 우의정이었던 민암(閔黯) 등이 이 기회에 반대당 서인을 완전히 제거하려고 김춘택 등 수십 명을 하옥하고 범위를 넓혀 일대 옥사를 일으켰다. 이 때 숙종은 폐비에 대한 반성으로 옥사를 다스리던 민암을 파직하고 사사했으며, 권대운·목내선(睦來善)·김덕원 등을 유배했다. 이어 소론 남구만(南九萬)·박세채(朴世采)·윤지완(尹趾完) 등을 등용하고 장씨를 희빈으로 내렸는데 이것을 갑술옥사라고 한다. 또한, 이미 죽은 송시열·김수항(金壽恒) 등은 복작(復爵)되고 남인은 정계에서 물러나게 되었다. 소론이 들어서고 남인이 물러날 때 장희빈의 오빠 장희재(張希載)가 희빈에게 보낸 서장(書狀) 속에 폐비 민씨에 관련된 문구가 있어 논쟁이 벌어졌다. 여러 사람이 장희재를 죽이자고 했으나 세자에게 화가 미칠까 염려하여 남구만·윤지완 등이 용서하게 했다. 그런데 왕비 민씨가 죽은 다음에, 장희빈이 취선당(就善堂) 서쪽에 신당(神堂)을 설치하고 민비가 죽기를 기도한 일이 발각되었다. 이 일에 관련된 희빈과 장희재는 처형되고 궁인(宮人)·무녀와 그 족당(族黨)도 화를 입었다. 이것을 무고(巫蠱)의 옥(獄)이라고 한다. 이 때 장희빈에 대해 관대한 태도를 취한 남구만·최석정(崔錫鼎)·유상운(柳尙運) 등 소론의 선비들도 몰락하고 다시 노론이 득세하였다. 숙종은 이후 빈(嬪)을 후비(后妃)로 승격하는 일을 없애는 법을 만들었다.
Interesting. Some Brahms foreshadowed in the middle, and bits and pieces of Haydn and a few others. What's really lacking is Beethoven. One of the strongest musical personalities in history comes off a bit vague here. Moments of real beauty, however, but he was right to concentrate on works with more potential.
나는 희빈 장씨니라 꺄아하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하
No está a la altura de sus hermanas Quizá por eso B no lo publicó Se notan aquí y allí los rasgos beethovenianos pero el conjunto no le arrima a los otros 5 Gracias por darlo a conocer
Por um acaso, calhou ouvir outra vez esta mediocridade. Ainda bem que B abandonou esta salseirada. Um som primitivo, uma orquestração sem inventiva nem força expressiva, com momentos reveladores de uma aterradora falta de inspiração.
Beethoven would never approve of this composition...stylistically it lacks depth and the melodies are uninteresting...this is not the "great" Beethoven...
Música atabalhoada, não me surpreende que Beethoven tenha abandonado esta porcaria indigna dele. Bom, aproveitou uns compassos para a Nona, mas aí refinou-os.
I think that might be quite harsh, considering that these are only sketches. In general, Beethoven spent a lot of time refining his music, as his sketch books reveal, and so what we see here probably reflect his first attempts. Yes, he may well have abandoned the concerto because he could not make it work or he was unsatisfied with it. However, there is little doubt that the voice of Beethoven is here, crap or not! There are a few works by Beethoven that are weak - the one that comes to my mind is 'Wellington's Victory'.
@@christopherparker6232Beethoven é o meu mestre. Ouvir coisas como este pseudo concerto dececiona-me bastante. Certo, reconheço-o em alguns compassos, mas no todo a orquestração é medíocre e o solo indigno dele. Cerca de 200 compassos foram escritos em versão acabada por ele, o resto é um arranjo lógico ou construído a partir de esboços. Repito: Beethoven é o meu mestre.
This splendor of words can not arrive
This wonderful performance Ìs a great gift to Beethoven enthusiasts and piano music lovers
That he would abandon this shows so much artistic integrity -- he decided it wasn't as good as 5 & 4 and yet still it's very "beethovenian" in sound and gripping in that way...
Absolutely, it has the Beethoven beat, which is unique to Beethoven. That for me is the signature of authenticity in all of his music, especially after the Eroica. It is a signature which why for me he is my favourite composer. It beats at the spirit and soul.
Mi Maestro Beethoven que grande es , "el es AMOR "
Absolutely wonderful. There are many stirring and captivating musical ideas in this fragment and we are left to wonder what a magnificent sixth piano concerto could have come out of this. The other piano concertos of Beethoven were all once at this embryonic stage of development. Perhaps the cancellation of the planned concert later that year resulted in Beethoven leaving it aside, perhaps the piece raised difficulties that Beethoven needed more time to resolve. We get a glimpse of Beethoven's process of composition - the great visions of his unique genius taking shape and the labor it took to fully realize them. There is something special here, and we can appreciate it for what it is, but can only wonder at what might have been.
13:55 9th Symphony? Am I the only one who hears the first movement in this passage?
No you are not - I agree, definitely a hint of the first movement of the ninth symphony!
@@christopherparker6232 absolutely.
great ear man
absolutely. Great discovery!
All Themes, ideas and fragments Beethoven want to use for his 6th piano concerto was later used at his 7th,8th and 9th symphony.
It's great to hear this piece, whatever (usual) caveats there may be...
Is this recording taken from the April 2015 concert and, if so, which orchestra is accompanying ? I think the pianist is Frau Haider-Dechant ?
I think if Beethoven had completed this concerto, it would be as much a milestone in music as his third symphony. I am no professional musician, but it seems to "stand apart" from the preceding piano concerti. Almost Schumannesque, at moments, but slightly less like the Schumann concerto, and more like Schumann's other two concertante pieces for piano & orchestra (if that makes sense !).
are you kidding? do you really think it is a recording? 🤦♂
It is certainly interesting to hear this realisation. There are many authentic sounding Beethovenisms within the score. Based on the commentary about the available material, it is probably as close as we will get to what Beethoven would have done had he completed the movement himself - that, of course, we will never know!
驚いた。第六が聴けるなんて、いい時代になったなぁ。
知らなかった。いつ誰が発見したのでしょう？
この曲も演奏も完璧じゃないですか？第一楽章だけでも十分です。
上の文章を読んで、遺稿を元にして大変な苦労の末に作り出されたように思いました。この曲に取り組まれた方に敬意を表します。
There are one or two places where the balance between the left and right hand of the piano are inconsistent, noticeably about 12:50 to 13:08, where the right hand overpowers the rippling semiquavers in the left hand, as well as at 13:26 to 13:33 when the left hand is louder than the right, where clearly they should be the same.
This clearly midi-played demonstration shows just how important a good conductor, combined with people who know what they're doing in studios, and, of course, real musicians taking part, is. It's very messy, and in many places just doesn't reflect Beethoven at all. I've never heard this before, and never even seen it mentioned in any books, so I'm naturally intrigued to find out more about it.
Am I the only one obsessing over 3:06?
In what way are you obsessed? It is certainly an effective and attractive use of sequential writing....
Not obsessed but definitely noticed it. Its the passage Beethoven would NOT have written. Nothing wrong with it, it just isn't Beethoven, especially at that stage. Unimaginative melody and cliche treatment. But it's brief and we get back on track.
It's a very unBeethovenian temporary modulation. I can't recall it's like anywhere else.
Interesting experiment
희빈 장씨(1659∼1701) : 조선 19대왕 숙종의 후궁.
본관은 인동(仁同)이다. 역관 장현(張炫)의 종질녀이다. 어머니의 정부(情夫)였던 조사석(趙師錫)과 종친인 동평군 이항(東平君 李杭)의 주선으로 궁녀로 들어가 숙종의 총애를 독차지했다.
1686년(숙종 12) 숙원(淑媛)이 되었다. 1688년 소의(昭儀)로 승진하고 왕자 이윤(李昀: 뒤의 景宗)을 낳았다. 왕은 기뻐하여 세자로 봉하려 했다. 그러나 송시열(宋時烈) 등 당시 정권을 잡고 있던 서인이 지지하지 않으므로 남인들의 원조를 얻어 책봉하려 했다.
이에 서인의 노론·소론은 모두 왕비 민씨(閔氏)가 나이가 많지 않으니 후일을 기다리자고 주장하였다. 숙종은 듣지 않고 1689년 정월에 이윤을 세자로 봉하고, 장소의는 희빈으로 승격했다. 이 때 송시열이 세자로 봉하는 것이 아직 이르다고 상소하였다. 왕은 이미 명호(名號)가 결정된 다음에 이런 의견을 말하는 것은 무슨 일이냐고 진노했다.
이에 남인 이현기(李玄紀)·남치훈(南致薰)·윤빈(尹彬) 등이 송시열의 상소를 논박하며 파직시켜 제주도로 유배하게 하고 다시 사사(賜死)하게 하였다. 그러나 송시열은 중로 정읍으로 이배(移配)되었다가 사약을 받았다.
이 밖에 서인의 영수들도 파직 또는 유배를 면하지 못했다. 반면에 남인의 권대운(權大運)·김덕원(金德遠) 등이 등용되었다. 이 정권의 교체를 기사환국 또는 기사사화라고 한다.
이 해 5월에 민비를 폐하고 장희빈을 왕비로 삼으려 할 때 서인 오두인(吳斗寅)·박태보(朴泰輔) 등 80여 명이 상소하여 이를 반대했다. 그러나 이들은 참혹한 형문을 받게 되니 이후 정국은 남인의 세상이 되었다.
기사환국 후 시간이 흐르면서 숙종은 폐비사건을 후회하게 되었다. 그러던 중 1694년 서인의 김춘택(金春澤)·한중혁(韓重爀) 등이 폐비 복위운동을 꾀하다가 고발되었다. 이 때 남인의 영수요 당시 우의정이었던 민암(閔黯) 등이 이 기회에 반대당 서인을 완전히 제거하려고 김춘택 등 수십 명을 하옥하고 범위를 넓혀 일대 옥사를 일으켰다.
이 때 숙종은 폐비에 대한 반성으로 옥사를 다스리던 민암을 파직하고 사사했으며, 권대운·목내선(睦來善)·김덕원 등을 유배했다. 이어 소론 남구만(南九萬)·박세채(朴世采)·윤지완(尹趾完) 등을 등용하고 장씨를 희빈으로 내렸는데 이것을 갑술옥사라고 한다. 또한, 이미 죽은 송시열·김수항(金壽恒) 등은 복작(復爵)되고 남인은 정계에서 물러나게 되었다.
소론이 들어서고 남인이 물러날 때 장희빈의 오빠 장희재(張希載)가 희빈에게 보낸 서장(書狀) 속에 폐비 민씨에 관련된 문구가 있어 논쟁이 벌어졌다. 여러 사람이 장희재를 죽이자고 했으나 세자에게 화가 미칠까 염려하여 남구만·윤지완 등이 용서하게 했다.
그런데 왕비 민씨가 죽은 다음에, 장희빈이 취선당(就善堂) 서쪽에 신당(神堂)을 설치하고 민비가 죽기를 기도한 일이 발각되었다. 이 일에 관련된 희빈과 장희재는 처형되고 궁인(宮人)·무녀와 그 족당(族黨)도 화를 입었다. 이것을 무고(巫蠱)의 옥(獄)이라고 한다.
이 때 장희빈에 대해 관대한 태도를 취한 남구만·최석정(崔錫鼎)·유상운(柳尙運) 등 소론의 선비들도 몰락하고 다시 노론이 득세하였다. 숙종은 이후 빈(嬪)을 후비(后妃)로 승격하는 일을 없애는 법을 만들었다.
I want the score
Bravo bravo bravo
Wonderful to listen to this rich movement by following the score! Thank you for that, but I think the tempo is way too slow...
Yes, I think you are right about the tempo - the many semiquavers (16th notes) don't 'sparkle' along like in the other concertos.
Compare it with this realisation, which runs along more like I am used to hearing....ua-cam.com/video/z5xv9uVI-Xg/v-deo.html
Interesting. Some Brahms foreshadowed in the middle, and bits and pieces of Haydn and a few others. What's really lacking is Beethoven. One of the strongest musical personalities in history comes off a bit vague here. Moments of real beauty, however, but he was right to concentrate on works with more potential.
es Beethoven? parece Czerny...
나는 희빈 장씨니라 꺄아하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하하
????
Gerd p: mister know it better. It’s good but……
No está a la altura de sus hermanas
Quizá por eso B no lo publicó
Se notan aquí y allí los rasgos beethovenianos pero el conjunto no le arrima a los otros 5
Gracias por darlo a conocer
No es más que un borrador, no se le puede considerar una obra como tal, y por tanto no se le puede comparar a los otros conciertos.
Por um acaso, calhou ouvir outra vez esta mediocridade. Ainda bem que B abandonou esta salseirada. Um som primitivo, uma orquestração sem inventiva nem força expressiva, com momentos reveladores de uma aterradora falta de inspiração.
Pretty underwhelming. Good thing he left it in his closet.
Couldn't agree more.
Beethoven would never approve of this composition...stylistically it lacks depth and the melodies are uninteresting...this is not the "great" Beethoven...
Música atabalhoada, não me surpreende que Beethoven tenha abandonado esta porcaria indigna dele. Bom, aproveitou uns compassos para a Nona, mas aí refinou-os.
I think that might be quite harsh, considering that these are only sketches. In general, Beethoven spent a lot of time refining his music, as his sketch books reveal, and so what we see here probably reflect his first attempts. Yes, he may well have abandoned the concerto because he could not make it work or he was unsatisfied with it. However, there is little doubt that the voice of Beethoven is here, crap or not! There are a few works by Beethoven that are weak - the one that comes to my mind is 'Wellington's Victory'.
@@christopherparker6232Beethoven é o meu mestre. Ouvir coisas como este pseudo concerto dececiona-me bastante. Certo, reconheço-o em alguns compassos, mas no todo a orquestração é medíocre e o solo indigno dele. Cerca de 200 compassos foram escritos em versão acabada por ele, o resto é um arranjo lógico ou construído a partir de esboços. Repito: Beethoven é o meu mestre.