When I ask Infernalists, ECTs, or Eternal Hell if they truly believe that some people will be tortured in the flame forever they say, “Idk.” They will never affirm it because they know morally it’s wrong.
Ilaria Ramelli’s two volume set “A Larger Hope” is also a great companion to Hart’s more philosophical arguments against eternal conscious torment as it uses church fathers to argue that universalism was more widely accepted than most people think.
Yeah I'm excited to get a look at that book, especially because in Vol. 1 Ramelli argues Augustine was a supporter of universalism in his beginning works, as you probably could bet I'm a fan of Augustine and I hadn't heard that before so I'm interested to see what his points are. (Also I'm working through more atonement stuff from an eastern perspective. Thought you'd be happy to hear that haha.)
@@CalebSmith3 That sounds great! Speaking of the eastern perspective, I think you’d really enjoy Father Stephen De Young’s latest book called “The Religion of the Apostles.” Additionally, the podcast he’s on “The Lord of Spirits” is great as well. It would be interesting to hear your take on some of those things.
Your honest effort is to be commended - but I think you got two of the three arguments wrong. You are not to blame; DBH writes powerfully but not always clearly. Indeed he has mentioned that he might rewrite the fourth meditation where he discusses free will, because, like you, many have misunderstood him as suggesting compatibilist free will. Actually what he writes about free will, modeled on the teaching of the Greek fathers, is far more subtle. Here in my own words: Our free will is as it seems, namely we have some power to choose this or that on our own sovereign accord. True freedom is the rational freedom, and rational freedom will always move towards the good and thus towards God. But in our fallen condition we are often quite irrational and therefore confuse what is evil for the good - and therefore often choose sin. But not in a compatibilist determined way, but in a way which to some significant degree depends on our own sovereign disposition, on our faith, or whether we pray or do other spiritual exercises, on our participation in the life of the church, on the love of our friends, and so on. We choose freely; nothing is determined. Still, in our long path of repentance in this life and the next we shall all necessarily choose to gravitate towards the good. Why necessarily? Because even though we are fallen creatures and thus to some degree irrational and unfree, we are made in the image of God and thus it is ontologically impossible for us to reach a state of infinite irrationality and absolute slavery to evil. Ever so slowly (and painfully) we shall all freely choose to repent and follow our good shepherd towards the Kingdom. (An interlocking powerful argument which you do not mention is that if God had created the world in such a way that it would be possible for even one conscious creature to suffer never-ending torment, then God would not be good in any intelligible sense of "good".) Secondly, his discussion of the scriptural text is not an argument for universalism. His goal there is to point out a fact: So in the NT there are many passages about the eschaton, some of which sound universalist and some infernalist. He is scholar of the relevant ancient languages and of the culture of the time, so he demonstrates that the apparent power of the infernalist sounding passages depends mostly on bad translations from Greek to Latin. And that conversely the universalist passages can hardly be interpreted away. So he uses his discussion of scripture not in order to support universalism but in order to defeat the impression that scripture clearly supports infernalism. It does no such thing. Actually there is good evidence that during the first centuries at least in the East where people could understand the scriptural texts in their original language the majority of the fathers as well as the people were universalists. Infernalism became dominant in the Easter church too only some time after Christianity became the imperial religion.
Universalism does not exclude the existence of hell: so technically universalists are still partial or temporary infernalists. Revelation 14:11 stands: they shall be "tormented" but "until the age of ages". There is a concerning trend among universalists to deny the reality of the lake of fire: eventhough it is explicitly mentioned; with its purpose being the purification and "baptism" of those who rejected John's "water unto repentance" and Christ's "Holy Spirit" initially.
@@TheMorning_Son exactly I guess it could be said that true Christian universalists are partial infernalists that would be a true statement but it doesn’t mean much it’s not really a mic drop argument since it’s still two very different beliefs about hell at the end of the day it seems most who believe in hell just wanna defend there doctrine and Christian universalists just want the truth I haven’t really met a single universalist that isn’t willing to go back to there old infernalist ways given truly good and persuasive scriptural or philosophical evidence the problem is there really isn’t any people have just convinced themselves that there is so it’s like trying to argue with a wall
That's all good in theory, but what do you have in the way of references, brother Dianelos? There's no question that after say Dante, the infernalists prevail. But what really is there in the Fathers, I'd be interested to know. And did they really have better knowledge than we do?
That was an excellent presentation and great food for thought! The variety of Biblical views on salvation can’t all be true simultaneously -- it is a logical impossibility. At best one is closer to the truth than the others. Christian Universalism has good Biblical support and should be on the table for study as much as Calvinism or Arminianism, etc. This I suspect even the “Infernalist” will agree. But, if I may say, many Christians throughout the ages have believed that one criteria for converging on the particular interpretation that is “most likely to be true” is consideration for how well the doctrine squares with a God that we understand to be All Powerful, All Loving, and All Knowledgeable. They [Christian Universalist] would say that indeed we have a sovereign God fully capable of providing the level of clarity required (in a context of punitive consequences) such that every individual *freely* makes the right choice for God, whether in this life or the next. Nobody with basic reasoning facilities will continue to make a delusional bad choice long after it becomes finally obvious that a more truthful alternate choice is the best one. Hence, in the end, all are saved. God doesn’t give up on any individual until His will of reconciliation is accomplished.
I’ve only recently stumbled upon your channel. Having now watched several of your presentations (I’ll be back for many more!), I must say you are an inherently attractive human being, and I just instinctively like you right off the bat. And, while you are a good bit younger than I, I can see I have plenty to learn from your obviously large accretion of biblical/theological information. But I must chime in here, at the same time, with no offense in any way meant, just an old guy spouting some of his own accumulated wisdom-if you can say with a glowing smile on your face that you are “an infernalist,” you simply havn’t given the matter enough serious thought to comprehend the meaning of your own words. Like someone smilingly, boldly announcing their atheism. I have a rule of thumb, or litmus test if you prefer, that I truly believe to be infallible: if you can say it with a smile you don’t for a moment comprehend the implications of your own claim. That said, I love you my brother. God bless you.
I hope one day I can be as humble and as a gentle as you, that's exactly how we're called to be towards both our brothers and sisters in Christ and the brothers and sisters of doubt ❤❤❤🎉🎉
Great presentation. If you would like to strengthen the case for CU, I would point to Thomas Talbot. His philosophical position looks something like this. 1) God loves mankind and wants to redeem them unto Himself. 2) God is sovereign and has absolute power. 3) eternal hell/annihilation Calvanism rejects position 1 and accepts 2 and 3. God is all powerful, but He will only save those He elects. (Predeterminism) (Annihilation) Arminians reject position 2 and accept 1 and 3. God loves everyone and desires to save all, but man's free will is greater than God's desires. Christian Universalists reject 3 and accept positions 1 and 2. God is love. He wants to save all and nothing will prevent His desires. With this framework, if 3 is true, then either position 1 or 2 is false. God either cannot save all, or will not save all. However, this is a bit of a condundrum, as both positions 1 and 2 are Orthodox positions in and of themselves. There are a mountain of scriptures that support position 1. There are a mountain of scriptures that support position 2. Position 3 has support, but it mostly depends on lens with which we read hyperbole, symbolism and parables. Conclusion: Whatever position 3 may be, it cannot be in conflict with either position 1 or 2. I am current working on a scientific position as well. There are over 9 million reports of near death experiences. There are some fascinating stories. Even if the stories aren't all true...if someone was clinically dead (which one cannot fake) and they returned a believer, that's all you need to know about post mortem salvation. I could go a step further and say that I believed a story where someone went to hell and returned, and say hell is therefore not eternal. But...honestly...their story isn't a requirement. The only requirements are clinical death, and a conversation after being revived. That's post mortem salvation.
I've always said that Calvinism and Universalism are two sides of the extremist sovereignty coin. In Calvinism God is so sovereign that He determines who will be saved, and in Universalism God is so sovereign that since He wants everybody to be saved He will see that everybody gets saved. The Bible teaches that God is sovereign for sure, but it also teaches free will and human responsibility.
I really appreciate how objectively you put forth the arguments! I am here for academic purposes (writing a paper and can't read through a whole book to explain a small portion of my essay), so it really helps to get a straightforward and well-informed analysis of the concept. Given your disagreeing, it is highly commendable that you do not give weak straw-man examples. Thank you!
Matt. 25:46, the sheep and the goats passage, actually lends itself quite well to universalism. The phrase "eternal punishment" κολασιν αιωνιον, would be better translated as "enduring discipline". If Christ meant "vengeance" or "retribution" he could have said νέμεσις or τιμωρία. But he chose specifically the word that means punishment with the goal correcting bad behaviour.
The usual rebuttal from non-universalists is: "Since the Bible clearly teaches that eternal _(aionios)_ life is endless, it follows that eternal _(aionios)_ punishment must also be endless." My rebuttal to that is: There are three nontraditional ways to interpret _aionios_ ("eternal") in Matthew 25:46: ------------------ *Interpretation #1 -- **_aionios_** is temporary for both sheep and goats* (1) _Aionios_ almost always means "eonios" or "of an eon" or "of an age," just like it sounds. I could give many examples. So in this particular verse, Jesus was only promising to the righteous "sheep" life in the age to come -- not eternal life. This isn't the first understatement in the Bible. For example, the phrase "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" understates the number of people God is God of.
(2) This interpretation doesn't threaten eternal life for believers, because many other verses, which don't use _aionios,_ do promise eternal life: (a) verses that include "immortality," "imperishable," "unfading" or "incorruptible" (1 Cor. 9:25, 15:42, 51-55, 2 Tim. 1:10, 1 Pet. 1:3-4,23, 5:4) (b) Isa. 25:8, Hos. 13:14, Luke 20:36, John 6:37, Rom. 8:19-21, 38-39, 1 Cor. 15:26, Rev. 20:14, 21:4. (3) In Matt. 25:46, the _aionios_ punishment for the unrighteous "goats" is also "of an age" (Point 1). (4) Therefore, the traditional argument is invalid. Life is eternal for the righteous "sheep" (Points 2a & 2b), while the Matt. 25:46 punishment for the unrighteous "goats" is temporary (Point 3). ------------------ *Interpretation #2 -- **_aionios_** is endless for sheep but temporary for goats* An adjective *can* means two different things in the same sentence. Examples: *_aionios_** in Rom. **16:25**-26,* Habakkuk 3:6, "A huge man is climbing a huge mountain." "Jesus is referring to two completely different things -- life and punishment. Eternal life is divine life that comes from God. That divine life never ends. Eternal punishment is divine punishment from His hand. The duration of that divine punishment may certainly be temporary, lasting only until it accomplishes its purpose." -- George Sarris, _Heaven's Doors,_ 2017, pg. 140 "Augustine raised the argument that since _aionios_ in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of _aionios_ is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when _aionios_ referred to the duration of Jonah's entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, _aionios_ referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the [time] preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon's temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether." -- Gerry Beauchemin, _Hope Beyond Hell,_ 2010, pg. 26 In other words, _aionios_ doesn't make God eternal, but God makes _aionios_ eternal. ------------------ *Interpretation #3 -- **_aionios_** is indeterminate for both sheep and goats* Jesus meant in Matt. 25:46 what he said in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." There, "eternal" _(aionios)_ means "spiritual" or "divine," and has no specified time frame. ------------------ *Conclusion:* It's extremely likely that one of these three nontraditional interpretations is correct, especially considering the long list of scriptures teaching, implying or strongly suggesting ultimate restoration: John 12:32, 17:2, combination of (John 3:35, 6:37), Rom. 5:18-19, 8:19-21, 11:32,36, 14:11 , *1 Cor. 15:22,28* , Eph. 1:10, Phil. 2:10-11, 3:21, Col. 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, Titus 2:11, 1 Pet. 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev. 5:13, 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2, combination of (Rev. 22:1,14-15,17a,17c), Psalm 22:27,29, 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isa. 25:6-8, 45:22-25, 57:16, Lam. 3:22,31, Ezek. 16:53,55, Mal. 3:2-3.
@@tomm6167 my interpretation is something between 2 and 3. We should look to the meaning of substantive to understand the modifier, rather than the other way around, and use a kind of linguistic teleology. "Life" implies the goal of self-perpetuation, so the adjective implies that the activity of living is what is "eundring/lasting/eternal/etc." Whereas the noun kolosin implies the goal of corrected behaviour, so what is "αιωνιον" is the effect of that correction. That being said, I'm actually not a universalist, though I'm not hostile to it. My view is that discipline lasts an equal length of time as the person refuses to repent and take accountability for their deeds. For some people, that very well could be forever. A person who genuinely loves Truth above all else, but simply came to the wrong conclusion through an error in reasoning, would be grateful to have their beliefs corrected.
An extremely relevant quote of a quote by Philo: "Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used _aidon_ to denote endless, and always used _aionion_ to describe temporary duration. Dr. Mangey, in his edition of _Philo_ says he never used _aionion_ for interminable duration. He uses the exact phraseology of Matthew, xxv: 46, precisely as Christ used it. *'It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment **_(kolasis aionios)_** from such as are more powerful.'* Here we have the exact terms employed by our Lord, to show that _aionion_ did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ." -- J. W. Hanson, _Bible Threatenings Explained,_ 1888, pgs. 123-124 Philo (c. 20 BC - c. 50 AD) was a prominent Jewish philosopher who lived in nearby Alexandria, Egypt.
@@user-cz8gi2om3n Thanks for your response. I'm personally convinced that the many verses that appear to teach universalism actually do (the ones mentioned near the end of this video being the tip of the iceberg), and that _aionios_ rarely means endless.
1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
I want and hope universalism to be true. I can't imagine somebody not wanting that and preferring many not be saved. I'm just not convinced it is true.
Have you read ‘The Inescapable Love of God’ by Thomas Talbott? That book has convinced a lot of people that universal reconciliation has a lot more biblical support than eternal torment or conditional mortality. If you hope that God will eventually save all read Talbott’s book. You might be pleasantly surprised.
@mineben256 so you think … you have a better idea that God ? If you believe that universalist ideas are good and you actively believe that is the most good. Yet you expect God to act … less than what you view as the best conclusion. Just an odd view
@mineben256 also universalism is all about what is good. As God is the literal good, and if we can’t understand what is good then we can’t know God .. for God is the literal being of Good, beauty, aesthetic, and lastly and more importantly Love which is the greatest. Edit May God bless you as well
Universal salvation has to be true and makes perfect sense Christ died for the sins of "all" the world one life for billions, all for one and one for all. The good news is indeed good news as a matter of fact its more than good if there is such a thing. It is finished!!
Caleb, just came across your channel. Thanks for making this video. I’ve always been a fan of trying to know all the various interpretations on any given topic. It was helpful for me to hear you give this position of DBH even though you don’t embrace it. Keep up the good work. I’m a subscriber now!
Hey Caleb. Thanks for your videos. You mentioned that you are seeing interaction with this book in the journals. Wondering which journals you read. Thanks.
I agree with Hart and I think his arguments are a little different and quite a bit stronger than what your presentation suggests. But all in all, good, fair video. Subscribed.
If man must participate in his salvation then there is no salvation. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. If God had to rely on man... Just stop right there. Also, Satan need only win ONE SOUL. In so doing, he would be privileged to boast that he won one soul. That means that God is defeatable. This is why hell was never created nor intended for man... The Church teaches you must participate or be good or be a member or say a prayer... Etc.. The Roman Catholic Church was spectacular s when it came to interpreting scripture to empower the church. Unfortunately, the reformation didn't move far enough. The entire concept and teaching should have been reformed
No creo que lo haga, ya que sus libros no son muy reconocidos por la academia. Son más que nada populares. Personalmente creo que presenta cosas que se han sabido por mucho tiempo, y que muchos otros libros dicen como si el fuera el primero en decirlo.
I do, I've read the unseen realm, demons, and the bible unfiltered. I want to read his angels and supernatural books then I might do a 4 or 5 part series. Lord willing anyways, he's already a clear communicator and I don't know if I'll be able to summarize his thought very well. I'll give it a try though.
@@CalebSmith3 he's more of a summary guy of big themes by his own description of himself, so I guess that's why might seem challenging to summarize his summaries jeje
@@whywearehere7517 It's hard to make one of the most morally degenerate philosophical systems ever devised sound beautiful, but I wouldn't claim it's impossible.
@@carsonwall2400 it’s not about the topic itself but the way he elucidate this kind o of topic he makes his teaching very appealing and interesting to the listeners, he has his own worldview but but also he includes other perspectives and expounded it beautifully
Lyla sounds a bit like a riff on Hosea. As to this video, it might be the best example I’ve seen in terms of presenting an opposing view in an accurate and favorable light. Well done.
Im with calvinists as concerns the "non-existence" of actual uncompromised free-will. Romans 9:16-22 clearly speaks of Humans as being passive in their relationship with God: regardless of belief. Language of a "Potter" forming "Vessels" - "one for glory - the other for wrath" really puts all power in God's hands. "for this purpose: I have raised you up" is not an affirmation of free-will; neither is "not through him who wills/or runs". But where calvinists are lost is the fact that God: after imposing his will on his creation would also torture it (in part) without end. The Bible does speak of universal salvation quite clearly though. 1 John 2:2 "not only for our sins: [...] but for the whole world" 1 Timothy 4:10 "saviour of ALL men: especially (greek: "mallista" inklusive; first but not only) of those who believe" Revelation 14:11 " [...] tormented [...] UNTIL the age of ages (eis aionas aionon : until (not >in< the) longest duration)"
@@js1817 Further down Paul says: He will call them “My People” who were “Not My People” “Not My People” are vessels of wrath. “My people” are vessels of glory.
@@sciencesociety2919 i think it’s not best explanation for overall context of the Bible, what made you believe that all will be saved? All who believe will be saved but not all will believe
Fantastic job summarizing his arguments, especially since you don't agree with them! It takes a lot of skill and humility to explain an argument you disagree with so well! That being said, I think you overlooked his argument from creatio ex nihilo and the goodness of God. The argument being that since God created the cosmos out of nothing, God did not have to create the cosmos. And since God is omniscient, God will know who will end up being saved before God created the cosmos. If God saw that a large number of people would be subjected to eternal torment and God decided to go through with that, that would make God not essentially good. Therefore, if God is both Goodness itself and if God was free to create the cosmos, all must be saved.
When Jesus brought up worms not dying and fire not quenching, he quoted Isaiah where it mentions those are all dead bodies. Not to mention that unquenchable does not mean never ending
Great video. Found your channel a few months back and have been gradually making my way through your content, consistently excellent and illuminating. Would love to see you do a break-down of Jesus and the Eyewitnesses by Richard Bauckham in the same way you did for Paul and the Gift and Christian Origins and the Question of God series.
I actually find that most of the moral arguments for universalism are deflated if you can accept that postmortem salvation is possible, but that many will not take it and will live in perpetual inferno because they will never take responsibility and repent for their actions no matter what is said or done to them.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. I pray 🙏 God will open your eyes and stop the madness heresy manufactured by the Devil! You must take Jesus at his word! 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when JASON EGELAND will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Being a Spiritist, I view these debates from the outside. However, it always strikes me how Christians in general insist in preaching God's love and perfection, and still defend that He developed such a complicated and partial plan of salvation.
“This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our savior; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV
I think you would really benefit from reading _"The Human Faces of God"_ by Thom Stark. I see that you are capable of seeing multiple sides of Christian arguments. I too can articulate and understand proof texts to support many different theological view points. I've been saying for awhile now that the Holy Spirit must convict the man of God differently for Christian men to all believe differently. This understanding and seeing the evidence has led me to believe the Bible is NOT inerrant. After 30+ years I am no longer a fundamentalist trying to harmonize every single scripture and try to explain everything away with an apologetic argument. I was a Calvinist but I see why people believe differently than my convictions. I also see the _cognitive dissonance_ I had holding to that view. We all want to believe what is true about God, His purpose, and our purpose. I think most of the issues today in Christianity is that we take the 66 book canon, voted and disagreed upon by men, and treat it like it is as perfect as God Himself. I really think you should read and look into this. It has completely changed my life and my faith for the better.
A cheep-skate compatibilist is held up by a robber with a gun. The robber says, "your money or your life?" The compatibilist says, "How much time will you give me to decide?"
Very clearly presented. Thank you. Though Dianelos in the comment (below) would want to nuance what you have said a bit more... Enjoying your channel. Always up for a few more of NT Wright's weighty tomes - he is a writer where it's hard to sort out the wood for the trees sometimes and I expect you could help there!
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. I pray 🙏 God will open your eyes and stop the madness heresy manufactured by the Devil! You must take Jesus at his word! 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when JASON EGELAND will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Good news: The same God that sits above us on the Throne, is the same God that is everyone, and he was manifested in the flesh! His name is Jesus and he died for the sins of all so that God may be all in all! Evil will not coexist with good/God forever for it is written that God shall be all in all...Praise God!!! For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Colossians 1:19-20 - All things means all things!!! One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:6 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Philippians 4:8 We are being made in the image of Jesus! ❤Who (Jesus) shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue ALL things unto himself. (Philippians 3:21) Thus all shall fulfill the first and great commandment!
He says everyone will be saved. At one point he says just hoping everyone might be saved is "soggy theology", I guess that makes me a soggy theologian.
@@CalebSmith3 Have you read Postmortem Opportunity (IVP, 2021) by James Beilby? IMO he does a good job staking out a sort of middle ground between Restrictivism and Universalism. It's given me a lot of food for thought.
Cool! We've now got a theology where everyone gets a participation trophy, sin is no big deal, and God is handcuffed by our sentimentalist version of love. I'm gonna play the odds and stick to my guns. After all, if they're right being wrong has no real cost. That's beautiful.
Good video, seems like universalism has a big problem with the idea of suffering and evil/chaos being beutiful to some existences, but I can appreciate some arguments; I'm not a reformed either.
That first bunch of stuff from Bentley-Hart is a mess not even good enough for a cheap romance novel. The second one is sloppy Platonism. But "Un-Augustine your hermeneutics" is a great notion.
Thinking that a God of pure love would send a man who was raised as a little boy to believe God doesn't exist would a send person like that to hell, is insane in and of itself.
here's hart's latest post that you may find helpful if you do another presentation on his thought www.abc.net.au/religion/david-bentley-hart-obscenity-of-belief-in-eternal-hell/13356388
Don't know if we can swing for the universal fence, but we have some household promises: "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, you and your house."
I believe in universal salvation and reject infernalism, because I believe in a loving Father/Mother God, and in my opinion, no loving Father/Mother would send, or watch one of their children be sent, to internal punishment and eternal pain. Infernalism and the concept of a loving Father/Mother God are incompatible to me. “ That dog just don’t hunt.”
Im a preterist who believes that the references to “HELL” were only relevant to those who were judged in heaved into the slaughter Valley below of ancient Hebrews, who judged that valley for its have it of worshiping golden calves and sacrifice some children to Moloc. No spiritual health exists in my opinion. So I think and I wonder why universalist or anybody uses the word saved. The word saved was adopted or adapted from the word deliverance, which is all throughout the Bible for the Jews and our God delivered them over and over and over And thus this is no different than the judgment at 8070 against the temple. God simply judge the law. And those who followed Torah. Tour would end and the lesson that God used through the Jews would stand for eternity for us to watch and learn from that we are free in Christ.
The niecene creed created the whole "believe in Jesus or BURN IN HELL" heretical doctrine, this goes far deeper then just this one video. Universalism have been around since Christianity infancy but the niecene creed put a complete chokehold on it and killed innocent Christians who practiced it, niecene creed = Roman papacy so it made it hard to challenge because of the lack of technology but it's 2023 and now were able to communicate with each other instantly online therefore have the power to challenge it "eternal punishment" doctrine. Islam is dying there's a saying be said amongs atheists, Christians, and Christian converts from Islam "Islam thrived by the sword but died by the internet". Do some research brother, the universal doctrine IS THE REAL Good news Jesus told us to go out and preach, it's a message of hope!! That is why were called "the hopeful universalists" It feels so good knowing that God's love will cover ALL of man's sins and I don't see unbelievers as my enemies, they're my brothers and sisters of doubt and I will preach the GOOD NEWS to them in this manner ❤❤🎉🎉
I hope and pray you see this comment, it's just a brief comment of what is going on with universalism. We follow the same rules as the protestants, homosexuality is a sin, stealing is a sin, lying is a sin, we just believe a different outcome because of the Greek manuscript which is the originally manuscript and how the words were changed by the niecene creed in the Roman Catholic church.
@@JewandGreek And I suppose that faith is provided by the individual and not by God? Let's examine the scriptures to see if this is so... Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and that [FAITH] NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. *text in bracket is mine... But as you can see, even faith is the gift of God. We provide nothing, not even the belief comes from us... Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; HELP THOU mine unbelief. We provide nothing my friend. But in order to believe that, one, God must open your eyes and then two, you must believe the scriptures... Rom 9:16 So then it is *NOT* of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Here is what scriptures tells us to command and teach.... Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially [Not exclusively] of those that believe. 1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach. *text in bracket is mine... I'm just being faithful to what the Word tells me to command and teach.
@@rg442 Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. It doesn't come by some sovereign decree of God based on your status as the elect predestined from the beginning. And Eph. 2:8 is saying that salvation is a gift, not faith.
@@JewandGreek Indeed faith comes by hearing or understanding. I think we can all agree that many have heard the Word, but not many have faith. If we provide our own faith as you claim, then it's something we can boast about. But there is no boasting... Once we hear, it is ONLY God that can open eyes and deal out the faith as He pleases. Here it is... plain as day: (Rom 12:3 ESV) For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has ASSIGNED. So you see, we have zero to boast about, not even the faith you want to take credit for. It's all of God. Here's a second witness: (2Co 10:15 KJV) Not boasting of things WITHOUT OUR MEASURE, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, WHEN YOUR FAITH IS INCREASED, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly, (2Co 10:16 KJV) To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand. (2Co 10:17 KJV) But he that glorieth, LET HIM GLORY IN THE LORD. To God be all the glory... including the measure of faith He has dealt to each of us.
@@rg442 Nobody claims that we provide our own faith, and nobody boasts about their faith when it comes to salvation. These are ridiculous arguments that Calvinists come up with to support their nonsense.
Hey Caleb, here is Tino from Germany. The problem with universalism here in the Lutheran pietistic tradition lies in the false reformation concept of "justification". As long as you define "justification" as forensic vindication and therefore synonymous with attaining eschatological salvation, you have big exegetical problems with Romans 5 on the level of textual grammar and the meaning of "all" . As long as you uphold the reformations (false) forensic vindication understanding of justification, the universalist can argue with the possibility /contextual probability that "all" means "all human individuals" , because of the parallelism to " in Adam all die". But as readers of NT Wright, we can figure out the solution to the problem of so called "universalism in Paul", and here I will propose it. I define according to the historical (new perspective on Paul) teaching "justification" as simply "being declared to be a member in the covenant family of Abraham in good standing". But: eschatological salvation is not dependent on just being member in the family in good standing at just "one point in time" , but it is dependent on being a faithful member to the covenantal standards that are set out by Jesus in his interpretation of tora (Luke 6, 46, Matthew 7, 21-23). If I have faith in Jesus, believing him being the Christ, the messianic king, and the truthfulness of his message, and therefore fulfilling the law by obedient faith/ allegiance/pistis (Ro 8, 4), then I will remain in this status, therefore I will inherit all covenantal promises, eg attaining eschatological salvation. So, basically, the solution is this: All people are being made members in the Abrahamic covenant family and thereby saved at the moment of a cosmic Jom Kippur when Jesus was dying on the cross. In God's perspective above all time, all human individuals are in and only in this moment saved in Christ. But in the course of human lives, some are loosing that status again by rebelling against the natural law in them (being lost without knowledge of special revelational law), some because they are denying allegiance to Christ, eg lacking obedient faith (John 3, 36b). But in the end, the righteous judge will be blotting out people from the book of life because of the lives they lived in rebellion and not because he did not save them. He saved us all, but by holding fast on to our rebellion we all can and most of us humans will be loosing that salvational status. It is all about allegiance to Christ as head of the covenant people Ro 11, 24. Without allegiance, all can and will be broken off the tree of Abraham. This modell I am proposing solves the following difficulties: 1. The salvation status of children. They are initially saved - for an unspecified time till they are considered as in rebellion to the covenant. 2. The salvation of people who helped others without knowing Jesus as master. Jesus accepts their lifestyle choices as allegiance, for the amount of knowledge one has is proportional to the degree of obedience you need to have for being a faithful servant in allegiance to the messianic king. 3. The fact that it is possible to be blotted out of the book of life - you can not be blotted out if you never were written in! So this being blotted out implies a time when everyone blotted out was written in the book of life, eg "saved". 4. The judgment according to works is now inevitably necessary to find out who, why and when lost his/her status of "being member in the covenant family in good standing". It is not necessary for God but for us all to see the things like God is seeing them, for in his eyes some are already judged and lost. Ro 2, 6-11. So it is true - all were saved in a proleptical way at the cosmic Jom Kippur of Golgatha. But most will be falling from grace: they do not cherish the charis/the present that was given to them in Christ, by rebellion, eg denying the reciprocal present of allegiance. Now my own private speculation: I think this could have been the view of Pelagius: because people are already saved and the loosing of salvation is dependent on rebellion, and the amount of knowldedge one has correlates to the amount of faithfulness the king demands, people can and will be saved outside the sacraments of the church. And people in the church who live in rebellion will be lost even with the sacraments of the church. But there is no such thing as effectual dammning inherited sin for all start being forgiven in Christ proleptically at Golgatha. In God's perspective, all individuals are saved proleptically in Christ at Golgatha and some are already lost and judged now and some are already gloryficated with Christ now. The NT statements about the salvation of people should be understood as an quantum mechanic superposition of different salvational positional states who are in the moment superpositioned and present in God's mind. But at death, we fall in a fixed state - the salvational wave function as superposition of two different possible states collapses to one state. But in the beginning, in God's eye everyone started as "saved". In one sentence: all human beings have been saved (proleptically at Golgatha) , but most will finally get lost because of false bad works. Even those with an insufficient "belief in Christ" that is not considered as "allegiance" by the judge according to works (belief as in James 2). Now is this works righteousness? I do not think so. We are gifted, but God specifies the demanded reaction to the gift he bestowed upon us in a certain way and declares his reaction to a lack of thankfulness (infernalism) .
Not a fan of NT wrights reading of Paul. It’s far away from how the Church has read Paul historically. It’s funny because you find many early church fathers who are at least closer to Luther than NT wrights take but wright and his camp still concentrate on Luther (who they even mischaracterize and who they don’t seem to understand). I’m not a Lutheran but it’s so tiresome.
You glibly claim to be an infernalist as one might mention one’s favourite beer. Do you not see the obscenity in infernalism? The monstrous God doesn’t disquieten you ever so slightly? Guess not: you’re saved. Bravo. So you can be cool with torture forever and discuss it with the levity of commentary on some football game?
He can be cool with torture all he wants, it doesn't exist. Universalism is the GOOD NEWS Jesus told us to go out and preach! These people are going to think we're heretics my brother but we must push on and tell the *real* GOOD NEWS!!
Your theology is complete nonsense. Did you forget about the account in Matthew 7:21-23, where Jesus said to those, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity". This is regarding the final judgment. After that, it's all over. No reconciliation, no repentance. That's the last judgment. Oh, you mean, some time after that, God changes His mind, has another judgment to give them another chance? That is absolute ridiculousness. Your argumentation is nothing but a rambling discourse of what you think or what your notions are, instead of what the Bible states categorically.
THERE IS NO RECONCILIATION YOU SAY? HAHAAHA "....AND HAS GIVEN US THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION, this means, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES ON THEM, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."2Cor5(Notice he speaks in past, this is the prophetic past, it hasn't happend already) You don't know what the ministry of reconciliation of 2Cor5 is. You don't know what the purpose of his blood is: "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth(MEN) or things in heaven(FALLEN ANGLES), having made peace THROUGH THE BLOOD of His cross."Col1:20 "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him."Eph1:10 AS YOU CAN SEE, AT THE CONSUMATION OF TIMES HE WHILL "GATHER TOGETHER ALL THINGS //IN CHRIST//" AS WE SEE IN: "For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. BUT EACH ONE AT HIS OWN ORDER, FIRST CHRIST(WHEN HE ROSE UP), THEN THOSE WHO ARE HIS AT HIS COMING THEN THE END(TELOS=CONSUMATION OF TIMES""1Cor15 MAYBE YOU IGNORE THE WHOLE BIBLE! Make yourself a favor and learn what aionios means before listening to a stupid pastor.
It's amazing to me how hard believers will fight to keep and promote the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. It's such a revolting doctrine. Not worthy of God who is beauty, truth and love. X
@@micme9520 Maybe you ignore 1Pet4:16 which teaches about the dead who did not believe while alive were later preached post-mortem so they can be saved aka LIVE TO GOD IN THE SPIRIT. THE "SOUL"(NEPHESH=UNION BODY+SPIRIT) THAT SINS IT SHALL DIE, NOT THE SPIRIT. DUH! They are a pattern of the ones who die faithless in the future, that is why: "....God is the savior of all especially those who believe, THIS COMMAND AND TEACH"1Tim4:10 DO YOU TEACH HE IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE? This verse means all are saved (father forgive them) BUT some are not saved from hell which is aionios which your stupid pastor won't tell you means EON. NOT ETERNAL. EON LASTING HELL. --------- "...and He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the whole world" 1Jn2:2 "...and we have seen and testify the Father has sent the Son TO BE THE SAIVOUR OF THE WORLD"1Jn4(DECLARING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING) "BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD" "AND IF I BE LIFTED UP I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO MYSELF" "....AND HAS GIVEN US THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION, this means, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES ON THEM, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."2Cor5 You don't know what the ministry of reconciliation of 2Cor5 is. You don't know what the purpose of his blood is: "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth(MEN) or things in heaven(FALLEN ANGLES), having made peace THROUGH THE BLOOD of His cross."Col1:20 "that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him."Eph1:10 AS YOU CAN SEE, AT THE CONSUMATION OF TIMES HE WHILL "GATHER TOGETHER ALL THINGS //IN CHRIST//" AS WE SEE IN: "For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. BUT EACH ONE AT HIS OWN ORDER, FIRST CHRIST(WHEN HE ROSE UP), THEN THOSE WHO ARE HIS AT HIS COMING THEN THE END(TELOS=CONSUMATION OF TIMES""1Cor15 MAYBE YOU IGNORE THE WHOLE BIBLE! Make yourself a favor and learn what aionos means before listening to stupid pastor.
@@micme9520 The vast majority of early christians were universalists until the fifth century when they were persecuted by Rome, that should tell you something.
@@micme9520 Augustine himself, the roman father of eternal Hell said: "The vast majority of Christians believe not in unending torments". This was written in the fifth century. Emperor Justinian, the juridical father of Eternal Torment, killed 30.000 people in the revolts of Nika, such a humble SON OF THE DEVIL, by their works you shall know them. ET is just a tool to control the dumb masses. In the later days we will have doctrines of demons. They say: "Behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin OF SOME" and "Father forgive SOME of them", this is unblibical and blasphemous. By their fruits you shall know them. ----------- The wages of sin is death: "...Christ has abolished death..."2tim "...the last enemy to be abolished is death.."1Cor15 After they experience this wrath they will be restored: "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only, but for the sins of the whole world"1Jn2:2 "Just as the condemnation "came" to all men, so also the justification of life "came" to all men"Rom5:18 (In greek the verb does not even appear, it says EIS which is FORCED) "He is te savior of all, especially those who believe, THIS COMMAND AND TEACH"1Tim4:10 Death is just a banishing, Christ payed so the damned wouldn't be banished forever, but for Aion(Eon) "For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His BANISHED ones are not expelled from Him."2Sam14:14 If no one gets out of hell, then Christians are going to hell forever: "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into HELL FIRE- where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’FOR //EVERYONE// SHALL BE SALTED BY FIRE"Mk9 YOU ARE GOING TO HELL SIR.(Fire is just a parable of trials and Godly Grief(1Pet1:6-7), which worketh repentance. He said to some believers they are going to Gehenna(Hell fire) as well: "“You are the light of the world ... Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny."M5:14-16 Everyone will eventually get out. Hell is just a parable, but taking everything literal is preposterous: "AND WITHOUT A PARABLE HE DIDN'T SPOKE TO THE AUDIENCES". --------- HOW COME HELL IS NOT MENTION NEITHER IN THE PENTATEUCH NEITHER IN THE OT NEITHER IN THE MAJORITY OF NT???? GOD MUST HATE HUMANITY SO MUCH. THE ONLY APARITION IN THE OT IS DAN 12 AND IT SAYS "OLAM PERDITION AND COMPTEMT" AS IN "OLAM HABA" OR "WORLD TO COME", YOU CAN'T TRANSLATE IT AS ETERNITY TO COME, BECAUSE THIS WORLD IS CALLED OLAM. "And be not conformed to the knowledge of this Aion(Olam in greek), but be renewed in your understanding." / "The sons of this AIon are given in marriage"/ "I am with you even until the end of this Aion" Even the NKJ translators knew Aion is PERISHABLE TIME-SPAM SET BY GOD, because they translated "God promised BEFORE TIME BEGAN" while it actually says "God promised before times Aionios" Or "Before Perishable time appointed by God". YOU EVEN HAVE THE WORD AIDIOIS WHICH TRULY MEANS ETERNAL BEING NEVER USED IN PUNISHMENTS LOL. THAT WOULD MEAN THE VERY PUNISHMENT DOES NOT EVEN HAVE A BEGINNING.
Anybody believing this doctrine of universal salvation is heavily deceived, and will not inherit the kingdom of God if you don't come away from it, because you have a false Spirit deceiving you. All of you should know Jesus warned of false teachers in the last days, those deceiving themselves in the last days and heaping unto themselves false teachers. If you device yourself then that's your fault. God already warned you these things would happen in Scripture. If you choose to go to hell forever, then that's your choice for not turning to him in faith and repentance, and not being swayed by the rest of the world.
I have to disagree with you. Where in scripture does God, Jesus, Paul or any of the other apostles say that it's a requirement to believe in "hell " to receive salvation? The idea that God, being all powerful, all loving and all knowing is going to allow himself to lose most of mankind to a spirit being that he created, is ridiculous. Or that Satan has the power and ability to put a time limit on God's work. Hell is a pagan concept that came from Norse mythology. The more I talk to atheists, I realize that the doctrine of eternal burning in hell and annihilation is what is causing a falling away effect. To my understanding, beleif in Jesus's resurrection, repentance of sin and confession are required for salvation from eternal death.
Saying Christian Universalism is equal to apostasy is a hard sell, but it does create a lot of theological problems as it is difficult to square with the overall story and emphasis of the Bible. The risk is that one will reject God as evil if one finds out that everybody is not saved per the Bible. The universalist has a narrow view of goodness and misses out on the possibility that God’s goodness might include his willingness to suffer the unrequited love of some of his creatures. God might see it as good to give the good gift of life to some for a time, even if it is rejected. They also assume, along with the infernalists, that the soul is immortal by nature and not as a superadded gift. But the theme of the destruction of those that will not accept the God who suffers for love, but denounce such as evil, are said not to have a part in his life, but will be destroyed in hell, which is the second death. Anhililationism (conditional immortality) combined with a true theodicy of suffering for love is the biblical alternative to universalism. At least as best as I can see.
@@jrhemmerich if God is going to annihilate most of mankind, and God is all knowing, I can't understand why God would tell mankind to multiply. If there's no chance of correction/purification, why would God resurrect the lost, give them life, judge them and then annihilate/murder them? Why have a second resurrection? Why not leave the lost dead. Hebrews 9:27 for it is for man to die ONCE and then face judgment.
@@dalecampbell5617, I think we need to be humble about what we know. Do we know that most of mankind will be lost? We don’t know the future or what God is working. We have some reason to think that the current population of the world that is saved is greater than most of mankind in most of history up to this point. So we should be cautious about an excessive pessimism. I would also suggest for your consideration whether it makes sense to speak of God murdering anyone. Murder is not just about killing, it caries the moral freight of a wrong done. But destruction of the body and soul is not a wrong done, but a just consequence for a temporal creature turning away from the Lord of life in their freedom. To invoke rationality is no answer for sin is not rational but sub-rational (all those that hate me love death, Prov. 8:36) There is a chance of correction, but is it not written that the Lord suffers long with us in our disobedience (Rom 2:4). Most of his punishments are for correction, but that doesn’t rule out a final eschatological punishment for those who harden their hearts against that correction (Rom 2:5-6), especially if they call such punishment evil. It is quite distressing that many a universalist will join with the unbeliever in contending against God’s just judgement. The point of the resurrection for the any who do not love the Lord of life is that judgement is not simply impersonal death in ignorance of the truth. Judgement is due for the victims who have been wronged, and is a proportional suffering for wrongs done before annihilation. And it is possible that even this suffering might be cut short in God’s mercy, but that is speculation. What we know is that God promised death to Adam for rebellion, and Jesus warned us to give proper attention to the fact that God can destroy both body and soul in hell (Mat. 10:28), and Paul speaks of the destruction of those that reject the Gospel (2 Thess 1:8), and Revelation states that there is a second death for the resurrected unbeliever (Rev 20:14). There is no conflict with Hebrews here, because the judgement occurs after the first death. One must be raised in order to be judged. While there is a fire of purification, that same fire destroys those who have no faith to be purified (1 Cor. 3:13). We should not think that God is pleased with this destruction. It is very costly to him. To die and suffer for those who would come to reject and spurn his love. But he chose even to endure this unrequited love to show his love. He has counted the cost and determined, from the foundation of the world, that his sacrifice was meaningful even for those who reject it. Perhaps, as Paul suggests his wondrous mercy is made even more poignant thereby Rom 9:23). I do not say, nor do I think scripture says, that God must do it this way out of ontological necessity. It seems there might be multiple possible worlds which are consistent with God’s nature and goodness (and a world of universal salvation is possible), or perhaps his perfect love is only shown through a sort of heroic suffering and some degree of loss. But knowing these possibilities might be above our pay grade. Thus humility again is in order. What we can know from scripture, you will have to decide for yourself if this rings true, is we must become like him in his sufferings (Colossians 1:24) and when we see him we shall be like him (1 Jn. 3:2). Maybe it is enough to know that he does not ask others to suffer on his behalf, but is willing to suffer it himself, even in our place, and only asks that we reflect his likeness. That to me is a worthy God to follow, even if all are not saved. That is what I would propose is the teaching of our Lord. But I’m still learning too. There is much deep water here. Blessings.
I just could not say; "Im an infernalist" with a smile on my face!
Me either, it seems to me that most Christians who say they are "infernalist" have never stopped and think what they are actually believing.
When I ask Infernalists, ECTs, or Eternal Hell if they truly believe that some people will be tortured in the flame forever they say, “Idk.” They will never affirm it because they know morally it’s wrong.
Ilaria Ramelli’s two volume set “A Larger Hope” is also a great companion to Hart’s more philosophical arguments against eternal conscious torment as it uses church fathers to argue that universalism was more widely accepted than most people think.
Yeah I'm excited to get a look at that book, especially because in Vol. 1 Ramelli argues Augustine was a supporter of universalism in his beginning works, as you probably could bet I'm a fan of Augustine and I hadn't heard that before so I'm interested to see what his points are.
(Also I'm working through more atonement stuff from an eastern perspective. Thought you'd be happy to hear that haha.)
@@CalebSmith3 That sounds great! Speaking of the eastern perspective, I think you’d really enjoy Father Stephen De Young’s latest book called “The Religion of the Apostles.” Additionally, the podcast he’s on “The Lord of Spirits” is great as well. It would be interesting to hear your take on some of those things.
Your honest effort is to be commended - but I think you got two of the three arguments wrong. You are not to blame; DBH writes powerfully but not always clearly. Indeed he has mentioned that he might rewrite the fourth meditation where he discusses free will, because, like you, many have misunderstood him as suggesting compatibilist free will. Actually what he writes about free will, modeled on the teaching of the Greek fathers, is far more subtle. Here in my own words: Our free will is as it seems, namely we have some power to choose this or that on our own sovereign accord. True freedom is the rational freedom, and rational freedom will always move towards the good and thus towards God. But in our fallen condition we are often quite irrational and therefore confuse what is evil for the good - and therefore often choose sin. But not in a compatibilist determined way, but in a way which to some significant degree depends on our own sovereign disposition, on our faith, or whether we pray or do other spiritual exercises, on our participation in the life of the church, on the love of our friends, and so on. We choose freely; nothing is determined. Still, in our long path of repentance in this life and the next we shall all necessarily choose to gravitate towards the good. Why necessarily? Because even though we are fallen creatures and thus to some degree irrational and unfree, we are made in the image of God and thus it is ontologically impossible for us to reach a state of infinite irrationality and absolute slavery to evil. Ever so slowly (and painfully) we shall all freely choose to repent and follow our good shepherd towards the Kingdom. (An interlocking powerful argument which you do not mention is that if God had created the world in such a way that it would be possible for even one conscious creature to suffer never-ending torment, then God would not be good in any intelligible sense of "good".)
Secondly, his discussion of the scriptural text is not an argument for universalism. His goal there is to point out a fact: So in the NT there are many passages about the eschaton, some of which sound universalist and some infernalist. He is scholar of the relevant ancient languages and of the culture of the time, so he demonstrates that the apparent power of the infernalist sounding passages depends mostly on bad translations from Greek to Latin. And that conversely the universalist passages can hardly be interpreted away. So he uses his discussion of scripture not in order to support universalism but in order to defeat the impression that scripture clearly supports infernalism. It does no such thing. Actually there is good evidence that during the first centuries at least in the East where people could understand the scriptural texts in their original language the majority of the fathers as well as the people were universalists. Infernalism became dominant in the Easter church too only some time after Christianity became the imperial religion.
Good summary.
Universalism does not exclude the existence of hell: so technically universalists are still partial or temporary infernalists.
Revelation 14:11 stands: they shall be "tormented" but "until the age of ages".
There is a concerning trend among universalists to deny the reality of the lake of fire: eventhough it is explicitly mentioned;
with its purpose being the purification and "baptism" of those who rejected John's "water unto repentance" and Christ's "Holy Spirit" initially.
@@a-sheepof-christ9027 yes hell should be a temporal state of being rather than some eternal destiny.
@@TheMorning_Son exactly I guess it could be said that true Christian universalists are partial infernalists that would be a true statement but it doesn’t mean much it’s not really a mic drop argument since it’s still two very different beliefs about hell at the end of the day it seems most who believe in hell just wanna defend there doctrine and Christian universalists just want the truth I haven’t really met a single universalist that isn’t willing to go back to there old infernalist ways given truly good and persuasive scriptural or philosophical evidence the problem is there really isn’t any people have just convinced themselves that there is so it’s like trying to argue with a wall
That's all good in theory, but what do you have in the way of references, brother Dianelos? There's no question that after say Dante, the infernalists prevail. But what really is there in the Fathers, I'd be interested to know. And did they really have better knowledge than we do?
That was an excellent presentation and great food for thought! The variety of Biblical views on salvation can’t all be true simultaneously -- it is a logical impossibility. At best one is closer to the truth than the others. Christian Universalism has good Biblical support and should be on the table for study as much as Calvinism or Arminianism, etc. This I suspect even the “Infernalist” will agree. But, if I may say, many Christians throughout the ages have believed that one criteria for converging on the particular interpretation that is “most likely to be true” is consideration for how well the doctrine squares with a God that we understand to be All Powerful, All Loving, and All Knowledgeable. They [Christian Universalist] would say that indeed we have a sovereign God fully capable of providing the level of clarity required (in a context of punitive consequences) such that every individual *freely* makes the right choice for God, whether in this life or the next. Nobody with basic reasoning facilities will continue to make a delusional bad choice long after it becomes finally obvious that a more truthful alternate choice is the best one. Hence, in the end, all are saved. God doesn’t give up on any individual until His will of reconciliation is accomplished.
That third sentence! From the law of non-contradiction a judgement about goodness or truth does not logically follow.
I'm reminded of the scene from the princess bride when the priest said that "love, true love will follow you forever.
I’ve only recently stumbled upon your channel. Having now watched several of your presentations (I’ll be back for many more!), I must say you are an inherently attractive human being, and I just instinctively like you right off the bat. And, while you are a good bit younger than I, I can see I have plenty to learn from your obviously large accretion of biblical/theological information. But I must chime in here, at the same time, with no offense in any way meant, just an old guy spouting some of his own accumulated wisdom-if you can say with a glowing smile on your face that you are “an infernalist,” you simply havn’t given the matter enough serious thought to comprehend the meaning of your own words. Like someone smilingly, boldly announcing their atheism. I have a rule of thumb, or litmus test if you prefer, that I truly believe to be infallible: if you can say it with a smile you don’t for a moment comprehend the implications of your own claim. That said, I love you my brother. God bless you.
I hope one day I can be as humble and as a gentle as you, that's exactly how we're called to be towards both our brothers and sisters in Christ and the brothers and sisters of doubt ❤❤❤🎉🎉
Great presentation. If you would like to strengthen the case for CU, I would point to Thomas Talbot. His philosophical position looks something like this.
1) God loves mankind and wants to redeem them unto Himself.
2) God is sovereign and has absolute power.
3) eternal hell/annihilation
Calvanism rejects position 1 and accepts 2 and 3. God is all powerful, but He will only save those He elects. (Predeterminism) (Annihilation)
Arminians reject position 2 and accept 1 and 3. God loves everyone and desires to save all, but man's free will is greater than God's desires.
Christian Universalists reject 3 and accept positions 1 and 2. God is love. He wants to save all and nothing will prevent His desires.
With this framework, if 3 is true, then either position 1 or 2 is false. God either cannot save all, or will not save all. However, this is a bit of a condundrum, as both positions 1 and 2 are Orthodox positions in and of themselves.
There are a mountain of scriptures that support position 1. There are a mountain of scriptures that support position 2. Position 3 has support, but it mostly depends on lens with which we read hyperbole, symbolism and parables.
Conclusion: Whatever position 3 may be, it cannot be in conflict with either position 1 or 2.
I am current working on a scientific position as well. There are over 9 million reports of near death experiences. There are some fascinating stories. Even if the stories aren't all true...if someone was clinically dead (which one cannot fake) and they returned a believer, that's all you need to know about post mortem salvation. I could go a step further and say that I believed a story where someone went to hell and returned, and say hell is therefore not eternal. But...honestly...their story isn't a requirement. The only requirements are clinical death, and a conversation after being revived. That's post mortem salvation.
Very interesting. I appreciate all your comments and insight.
I've always said that Calvinism and Universalism are two sides of the extremist sovereignty coin. In Calvinism God is so sovereign that He determines who will be saved, and in Universalism God is so sovereign that since He wants everybody to be saved He will see that everybody gets saved. The Bible teaches that God is sovereign for sure, but it also teaches free will and human responsibility.
But Paul says in Romans 7 that we don't have free will. We are bound by sin, so cannot choose freely.
@@DIBBY40 Paul said no such thing.
Well said, thanks.
@@JewandGreek of course he did.
@@JewandGreek Read your Bible.
I really appreciate how objectively you put forth the arguments! I am here for academic purposes (writing a paper and can't read through a whole book to explain a small portion of my essay), so it really helps to get a straightforward and well-informed analysis of the concept. Given your disagreeing, it is highly commendable that you do not give weak straw-man examples. Thank you!
Matt. 25:46, the sheep and the goats passage, actually lends itself quite well to universalism. The phrase "eternal punishment" κολασιν αιωνιον, would be better translated as "enduring discipline". If Christ meant "vengeance" or "retribution" he could have said νέμεσις or τιμωρία. But he chose specifically the word that means punishment with the goal correcting bad behaviour.
The usual rebuttal from non-universalists is:
"Since the Bible clearly teaches that eternal _(aionios)_ life is endless, it follows that eternal _(aionios)_ punishment must also be endless."
My rebuttal to that is:
There are three nontraditional ways to interpret _aionios_ ("eternal") in Matthew 25:46:
------------------
*Interpretation #1 -- **_aionios_** is temporary for both sheep and goats*
(1) _Aionios_ almost always means "eonios" or "of an eon" or "of an age," just like it sounds. I could give many examples. So in this particular verse, Jesus was only promising to the righteous "sheep" life in the age to come -- not eternal life.
This isn't the first understatement in the Bible. For example, the phrase "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" understates the number of people God is God of.
(2) This interpretation doesn't threaten eternal life for believers, because many other verses, which don't use _aionios,_ do promise eternal life:
(a) verses that include "immortality," "imperishable," "unfading" or "incorruptible" (1 Cor. 9:25, 15:42, 51-55, 2 Tim. 1:10, 1 Pet. 1:3-4,23, 5:4)
(b) Isa. 25:8, Hos. 13:14, Luke 20:36, John 6:37, Rom. 8:19-21, 38-39, 1 Cor. 15:26, Rev. 20:14, 21:4.
(3) In Matt. 25:46, the _aionios_ punishment for the unrighteous "goats" is also "of an age" (Point 1).
(4) Therefore, the traditional argument is invalid. Life is eternal for the righteous "sheep" (Points 2a & 2b), while the Matt. 25:46 punishment for the unrighteous "goats" is temporary (Point 3).
------------------
*Interpretation #2 -- **_aionios_** is endless for sheep but temporary for goats*
An adjective *can* means two different things in the same sentence. Examples: *_aionios_** in Rom. **16:25**-26,* Habakkuk 3:6, "A huge man is climbing a huge mountain."
"Jesus is referring to two completely different things -- life and punishment. Eternal life is divine life that comes from God. That divine life never ends. Eternal punishment is divine punishment from His hand. The duration of that divine punishment may certainly be temporary, lasting only until it accomplishes its purpose." -- George Sarris, _Heaven's Doors,_ 2017, pg. 140
"Augustine raised the argument that since _aionios_ in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of _aionios_ is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when _aionios_ referred to the duration of Jonah's entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, _aionios_ referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the [time] preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon's temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether." -- Gerry Beauchemin, _Hope Beyond Hell,_ 2010, pg. 26
In other words, _aionios_ doesn't make God eternal, but God makes _aionios_ eternal.
------------------
*Interpretation #3 -- **_aionios_** is indeterminate for both sheep and goats*
Jesus meant in Matt. 25:46 what he said in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." There, "eternal" _(aionios)_ means "spiritual" or "divine," and has no specified time frame.
------------------
*Conclusion:*
It's extremely likely that one of these three nontraditional interpretations is correct, especially considering the long list of scriptures teaching, implying or strongly suggesting ultimate restoration: John 12:32, 17:2, combination of (John 3:35, 6:37), Rom. 5:18-19, 8:19-21, 11:32,36, 14:11 , *1 Cor. 15:22,28* , Eph. 1:10, Phil. 2:10-11, 3:21, Col. 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, Titus 2:11, 1 Pet. 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev. 5:13, 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2, combination of (Rev. 22:1,14-15,17a,17c), Psalm 22:27,29, 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isa. 25:6-8, 45:22-25, 57:16, Lam. 3:22,31, Ezek. 16:53,55, Mal. 3:2-3.
@@tomm6167 my interpretation is something between 2 and 3. We should look to the meaning of substantive to understand the modifier, rather than the other way around, and use a kind of linguistic teleology. "Life" implies the goal of self-perpetuation, so the adjective implies that the activity of living is what is "eundring/lasting/eternal/etc." Whereas the noun kolosin implies the goal of corrected behaviour, so what is "αιωνιον" is the effect of that correction.
That being said, I'm actually not a universalist, though I'm not hostile to it. My view is that discipline lasts an equal length of time as the person refuses to repent and take accountability for their deeds. For some people, that very well could be forever. A person who genuinely loves Truth above all else, but simply came to the wrong conclusion through an error in reasoning, would be grateful to have their beliefs corrected.
An extremely relevant quote of a quote by Philo:
"Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used _aidon_ to denote endless, and always used _aionion_ to describe temporary duration. Dr. Mangey, in his edition of _Philo_ says he never used _aionion_ for interminable duration. He uses the exact phraseology of Matthew, xxv: 46, precisely as Christ used it. *'It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment **_(kolasis aionios)_** from such as are more powerful.'* Here we have the exact terms employed by our Lord, to show that _aionion_ did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."
-- J. W. Hanson, _Bible Threatenings Explained,_ 1888, pgs. 123-124
Philo (c. 20 BC - c. 50 AD) was a prominent Jewish philosopher who lived in nearby Alexandria, Egypt.
@@user-cz8gi2om3n
Thanks for your response. I'm personally convinced that the many verses that appear to teach universalism actually do (the ones mentioned near the end of this video being the tip of the iceberg), and that _aionios_ rarely means endless.
Very nice. So now I would like to hear you about your arguments for not accepting universalism.
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
Really clear presentation of his arguments. A video on the reformed responses to the book would be good, putting both sides in front of us.
Thanks, I do want to get around to summarizing some of the responses that have come out
Seconded!
I want and hope universalism to be true. I can't imagine somebody not wanting that and preferring many not be saved. I'm just not convinced it is true.
Have you read ‘The Inescapable Love of God’ by Thomas Talbott? That book has convinced a lot of people that universal reconciliation has a lot more biblical support than eternal torment or conditional mortality. If you hope that God will eventually save all read Talbott’s book. You might be pleasantly surprised.
@mineben256 so you think … you have a better idea that God ?
If you believe that universalist ideas are good and you actively believe that is the most good. Yet you expect God to act … less than what you view as the best conclusion.
Just an odd view
@mineben256 I will say - that exact question I posed - is directly from the book in question
@mineben256 i can respond with I don’t know how you can hear - John 12:32 If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me”.
Or several other verses.
@mineben256 also universalism is all about what is good. As God is the literal good, and if we can’t understand what is good then we can’t know God .. for God is the literal being of Good, beauty, aesthetic, and lastly and more importantly Love which is the greatest.
Edit
May God bless you as well
Universal salvation has to be true and makes perfect sense Christ died for the sins of "all" the world one life for billions, all for one and one for all. The good news is indeed good news as a matter of fact its more than good if there is such a thing. It is finished!!
Caleb, just came across your channel. Thanks for making this video. I’ve always been a fan of trying to know all the various interpretations on any given topic. It was helpful for me to hear you give this position of DBH even though you don’t embrace it. Keep up the good work. I’m a subscriber now!
Hey Caleb. Thanks for your videos. You mentioned that you are seeing interaction with this book in the journals. Wondering which journals you read. Thanks.
The universalist position is that the word translated eternal "aionian" does not nessesarily mean "forever".
I really like that you tackle the topic of universalism. Thanks for the video!
Glad you liked it!
Please do make that second video if you haven’t already!
I agree with Hart and I think his arguments are a little different and quite a bit stronger than what your presentation suggests. But all in all, good, fair video. Subscribed.
If man must participate in his salvation then there is no salvation. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. If God had to rely on man... Just stop right there.
Also, Satan need only win ONE SOUL. In so doing, he would be privileged to boast that he won one soul. That means that God is defeatable. This is why hell was never created nor intended for man...
The Church teaches you must participate or be good or be a member or say a prayer... Etc..
The Roman Catholic Church was spectacular s when it came to interpreting scripture to empower the church. Unfortunately, the reformation didn't move far enough. The entire concept and teaching should have been reformed
Do you plan doing a series on Dr. Michael Heiser books?
No creo que lo haga, ya que sus libros no son muy reconocidos por la academia. Son más que nada populares. Personalmente creo que presenta cosas que se han sabido por mucho tiempo, y que muchos otros libros dicen como si el fuera el primero en decirlo.
I do, I've read the unseen realm, demons, and the bible unfiltered. I want to read his angels and supernatural books then I might do a 4 or 5 part series. Lord willing anyways, he's already a clear communicator and I don't know if I'll be able to summarize his thought very well. I'll give it a try though.
@@CalebSmith3 he's more of a summary guy of big themes by his own description of himself, so I guess that's why might seem challenging to summarize his summaries jeje
@@CalebSmith3I would be very interested in any summary of Dr Heiser books.
Calvinism hurts my heart.
It warms mine. :)
@@benjamincamping8134 the doctrine of reprobation warms your heart?
@@christophersnedeker2065 watch rc sproul he expounded it beautifully
@@whywearehere7517 It's hard to make one of the most morally degenerate philosophical systems ever devised sound beautiful, but I wouldn't claim it's impossible.
@@carsonwall2400 it’s not about the topic itself but the way he elucidate this kind o of topic he makes his teaching very appealing and interesting to the listeners, he has his own worldview but but also he includes other perspectives and expounded it beautifully
Lyla sounds a bit like a riff on Hosea. As to this video, it might be the best example I’ve seen in terms of presenting an opposing view in an accurate and favorable light. Well done.
Im with calvinists as concerns the "non-existence" of actual uncompromised free-will.
Romans 9:16-22 clearly speaks of Humans as being passive in their relationship with God: regardless of belief.
Language of a "Potter" forming "Vessels" - "one for glory - the other for wrath" really puts all power in God's hands.
"for this purpose: I have raised you up" is not an affirmation of free-will; neither is "not through him who wills/or runs".
But where calvinists are lost is the fact that God: after imposing his will on his creation would also torture it (in part) without end.
The Bible does speak of universal salvation quite clearly though.
1 John 2:2 "not only for our sins: [...] but for the whole world"
1 Timothy 4:10 "saviour of ALL men: especially (greek: "mallista" inklusive; first but not only) of those who believe"
Revelation 14:11 " [...] tormented [...] UNTIL the age of ages (eis aionas aionon : until (not >in< the) longest duration)"
But apparently the "vessels of wrath" image was Paul suggesting a hypothetical view which he then rejects.
@@js1817 Further down Paul says:
He will call them “My People” who were “Not My People”
“Not My People” are vessels of wrath.
“My people” are vessels of glory.
Thank you Caleb for speaking and spreading the Truth of the Victorious Gospel aka the Restitution of All :)
And may want to check out 'Hope Beyond Hell' by Gerry Beauchemin
@@sonnymustarseed7034excellent book, and it is available free online 👍
I wonder why Jesus said whoever denies me I will deny them... so What's the point of Jesus denying them (unbelievers ) if they will be saved anyway...
They will be denied until they change and no longer deny Jesus as their savior.
What if they don't want to be changed? What if their heart does not want the holiness of God?
@@sarayoung9395 and will you please give me a verse to back up your view...
@@whywearehere7517 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD. Like a river He turneth it whithersoever He wills.
@@sciencesociety2919 i think it’s not best explanation for overall context of the Bible, what made you believe that all will be saved? All who believe will be saved but not all will believe
Fantastic job summarizing his arguments, especially since you don't agree with them! It takes a lot of skill and humility to explain an argument you disagree with so well!
That being said, I think you overlooked his argument from creatio ex nihilo and the goodness of God. The argument being that since God created the cosmos out of nothing, God did not have to create the cosmos. And since God is omniscient, God will know who will end up being saved before God created the cosmos. If God saw that a large number of people would be subjected to eternal torment and God decided to go through with that, that would make God not essentially good. Therefore, if God is both Goodness itself and if God was free to create the cosmos, all must be saved.
Amen! That's perfect logic.
Have you read Fr Lawrence Farley's book, Unquenchable Fire?
When Jesus brought up worms not dying and fire not quenching, he quoted Isaiah where it mentions those are all dead bodies. Not to mention that unquenchable does not mean never ending
@@Elisplaytimeanimals so no
@@seanmalczewski1998 I haven't read it lol. Is it in favor of annihiliationism or ECT?
Great video. Found your channel a few months back and have been gradually making my way through your content, consistently excellent and illuminating. Would love to see you do a break-down of Jesus and the Eyewitnesses by Richard Bauckham in the same way you did for Paul and the Gift and Christian Origins and the Question of God series.
Thanks for the kind words, and that one's on the list! I'm going to have a lull in my work soon and hope to get through it then!
I had a vision. I saw the world burn and the seas had turned red. The sun had fallen. The final curtain in the land of the dead. ~ Ozzy (1981)
reading his book this week. i agree with alot of what he says
I actually find that most of the moral arguments for universalism are deflated if you can accept that postmortem salvation is possible, but that many will not take it and will live in perpetual inferno because they will never take responsibility and repent for their actions no matter what is said or done to them.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
I pray 🙏 God will open your eyes and stop the madness heresy manufactured by the Devil! You must take Jesus at his word!
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when JASON EGELAND will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Yes, it's definitely helpful. I pray you have more viewer.
Being a Spiritist, I view these debates from the outside. However, it always strikes me how Christians in general insist in preaching God's love and perfection, and still defend that He developed such a complicated and partial plan of salvation.
“This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our savior; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV
I think you would really benefit from reading _"The Human Faces of God"_ by Thom Stark. I see that you are capable of seeing multiple sides of Christian arguments. I too can articulate and understand proof texts to support many different theological view points. I've been saying for awhile now that the Holy Spirit must convict the man of God differently for Christian men to all believe differently.
This understanding and seeing the evidence has led me to believe the Bible is NOT inerrant. After 30+ years I am no longer a fundamentalist trying to harmonize every single scripture and try to explain everything away with an apologetic argument. I was a Calvinist but I see why people believe differently than my convictions. I also see the _cognitive dissonance_ I had holding to that view. We all want to believe what is true about God, His purpose, and our purpose. I think most of the issues today in Christianity is that we take the 66 book canon, voted and disagreed upon by men, and treat it like it is as perfect as God Himself.
I really think you should read and look into this. It has completely changed my life and my faith for the better.
@Caleb Smith
Nice work! You make some excellent points!
I'd look into john crowder and hopeful universalism. I think you will find it even more enjoyable. first-time watcher and loved it. I subbed
Aside, would live to hear your comments on Don DeLillo's Underworld. It was a helluva read. With apologies to "infernalists" for the phraseology.
A cheep-skate compatibilist is held up by a robber with a gun. The robber says, "your money or your life?" The compatibilist says, "How much time will you give me to decide?"
The "Compatibilists for America" try to hold a convention but every year they can never decide where to have it so it keeps getting postponed.
I'm not sure how it's possible for an infernalist to love God except in a Stockholm Syndrome kind of twisted way.
Great job thanks so much
Very clearly presented. Thank you. Though Dianelos in the comment (below) would want to nuance what you have said a bit more... Enjoying your channel. Always up for a few more of NT Wright's weighty tomes - he is a writer where it's hard to sort out the wood for the trees sometimes and I expect you could help there!
I am reading 'That All Shall be Saved ' currently.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
I pray 🙏 God will open your eyes and stop the madness heresy manufactured by the Devil! You must take Jesus at his word!
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when JASON EGELAND will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Good news: The same God that sits above us on the Throne, is the same God that is everyone, and he was manifested in the flesh! His name is Jesus and he died for the sins of all so that God may be all in all! Evil will not coexist with good/God forever for it is written that God shall be all in all...Praise God!!!
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Colossians 1:19-20 - All things means all things!!!
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:6
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Philippians 4:8
We are being made in the image of Jesus! ❤Who (Jesus) shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue ALL things unto himself. (Philippians 3:21) Thus all shall fulfill the first and great commandment!
Is it possible to agree with his 3 points without believing in universalism?
I think that's kind of the position I'm in haha
@@CalebSmith3 I’m sorry to ask such a simple question but does he say all will be saved or that all can be saved?
He says everyone will be saved. At one point he says just hoping everyone might be saved is "soggy theology", I guess that makes me a soggy theologian.
@@CalebSmith3 okay I always thought you were a reformed soteriologist
@@CalebSmith3 Have you read Postmortem Opportunity (IVP, 2021) by James Beilby? IMO he does a good job staking out a sort of middle ground between Restrictivism and Universalism. It's given me a lot of food for thought.
Cool! We've now got a theology where everyone gets a participation trophy, sin is no big deal, and God is handcuffed by our sentimentalist version of love. I'm gonna play the odds and stick to my guns. After all, if they're right being wrong has no real cost. That's beautiful.
So you think believing in ECT gets you to heaven? That makes zero sense
@@7bag7 what is ETC?
@@michaelkistner6286 ECT
@@7bag7 does ECT mean eternal conscience torment?
@@michaelkistner6286 Yes
Caleb “the diabolical” Smith
Good video, seems like universalism has a big problem with the idea of suffering and evil/chaos being beutiful to some existences, but I can appreciate some arguments; I'm not a reformed either.
That first bunch of stuff from Bentley-Hart is a mess not even good enough for a cheap romance novel. The second one is sloppy Platonism. But "Un-Augustine your hermeneutics" is a great notion.
I would agree people cannot undo sin by willing to do so for the will they have is egocentric will.
I’m not a universalist but Calvinism is of course insane.
Thinking that a God of pure love would send a man who was raised as a little boy to believe God doesn't exist would a send person like that to hell, is insane in and of itself.
here's hart's latest post that you may find helpful if you do another presentation on his thought
www.abc.net.au/religion/david-bentley-hart-obscenity-of-belief-in-eternal-hell/13356388
Don't know if we can swing for the universal fence, but we have some household promises: "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, you and your house."
I believe in universal salvation and reject infernalism, because I believe in a loving Father/Mother God, and in my opinion, no loving Father/Mother would send, or watch one of their children be sent, to internal punishment and eternal pain. Infernalism and the concept of a loving Father/Mother God are incompatible to me. “ That dog just don’t hunt.”
Im a preterist who believes that the references to “HELL” were only relevant to those who were judged in heaved into the slaughter Valley below of ancient Hebrews, who judged that valley for its have it of worshiping golden calves and sacrifice some children to Moloc. No spiritual health exists in my opinion. So I think and I wonder why universalist or anybody uses the word saved. The word saved was adopted or adapted from the word deliverance, which is all throughout the Bible for the Jews and our God delivered them over and over and over And thus this is no different than the judgment at 8070 against the temple. God simply judge the law. And those who followed Torah. Tour would end and the lesson that God used through the Jews would stand for eternity for us to watch and learn from that we are free in Christ.
It really seems like a different gospel
The niecene creed created the whole "believe in Jesus or BURN IN HELL" heretical doctrine, this goes far deeper then just this one video. Universalism have been around since Christianity infancy but the niecene creed put a complete chokehold on it and killed innocent Christians who practiced it, niecene creed = Roman papacy so it made it hard to challenge because of the lack of technology but it's 2023 and now were able to communicate with each other instantly online therefore have the power to challenge it "eternal punishment" doctrine.
Islam is dying there's a saying be said amongs atheists, Christians, and Christian converts from Islam "Islam thrived by the sword but died by the internet".
Do some research brother, the universal doctrine IS THE REAL Good news Jesus told us to go out and preach, it's a message of hope!! That is why were called "the hopeful universalists"
It feels so good knowing that God's love will cover ALL of man's sins and I don't see unbelievers as my enemies, they're my brothers and sisters of doubt and I will preach the GOOD NEWS to them in this manner ❤❤🎉🎉
I hope and pray you see this comment, it's just a brief comment of what is going on with universalism. We follow the same rules as the protestants, homosexuality is a sin, stealing is a sin, lying is a sin, we just believe a different outcome because of the Greek manuscript which is the originally manuscript and how the words were changed by the niecene creed in the Roman Catholic church.
These "logical" conclusions are useless if not backed by scripture. The salvation of all is the message of the Bible end to end.
The salvation of all may have been provided, but not all receive it because not all believe. Faith is the message of the Bible end to end.
@@JewandGreek And I suppose that faith is provided by the individual and not by God? Let's examine the scriptures to see if this is so...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and that [FAITH] NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
*text in bracket is mine... But as you can see, even faith is the gift of God. We provide nothing, not even the belief comes from us...
Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; HELP THOU mine unbelief.
We provide nothing my friend. But in order to believe that, one, God must open your eyes and then two, you must believe the scriptures...
Rom 9:16 So then it is *NOT* of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Here is what scriptures tells us to command and teach....
Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially [Not exclusively] of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
*text in bracket is mine... I'm just being faithful to what the Word tells me to command and teach.
@@rg442 Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. It doesn't come by some sovereign decree of God based on your status as the elect predestined from the beginning. And Eph. 2:8 is saying that salvation is a gift, not faith.
@@JewandGreek Indeed faith comes by hearing or understanding. I think we can all agree that many have heard the Word, but not many have faith. If we provide our own faith as you claim, then it's something we can boast about. But there is no boasting...
Once we hear, it is ONLY God that can open eyes and deal out the faith as He pleases. Here it is... plain as day:
(Rom 12:3 ESV) For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has ASSIGNED.
So you see, we have zero to boast about, not even the faith you want to take credit for. It's all of God. Here's a second witness:
(2Co 10:15 KJV) Not boasting of things WITHOUT OUR MEASURE, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, WHEN YOUR FAITH IS INCREASED, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
(2Co 10:16 KJV) To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.
(2Co 10:17 KJV) But he that glorieth, LET HIM GLORY IN THE LORD.
To God be all the glory... including the measure of faith He has dealt to each of us.
@@rg442 Nobody claims that we provide our own faith, and nobody boasts about their faith when it comes to salvation. These are ridiculous arguments that Calvinists come up with to support their nonsense.
Hey Caleb, here is Tino from Germany. The problem with universalism here in the Lutheran pietistic tradition lies in the false reformation concept of "justification". As long as you define "justification" as forensic vindication and therefore synonymous with attaining eschatological salvation, you have big exegetical problems with Romans 5 on the level of textual grammar and the meaning of "all" . As long as you uphold the reformations (false) forensic vindication understanding of justification, the universalist can argue with the possibility /contextual probability that "all" means "all human individuals" , because of the parallelism to " in Adam all die". But as readers of NT Wright, we can figure out the solution to the problem of so called "universalism in Paul", and here I will propose it. I define according to the historical (new perspective on Paul) teaching "justification" as simply "being declared to be a member in the covenant family of Abraham in good standing". But: eschatological salvation is not dependent on just being member in the family in good standing at just "one point in time" , but it is dependent on being a faithful member to the covenantal standards that are set out by Jesus in his interpretation of tora (Luke 6, 46, Matthew 7, 21-23). If I have faith in Jesus, believing him being the Christ, the messianic king, and the truthfulness of his message, and therefore fulfilling the law by obedient faith/ allegiance/pistis (Ro 8, 4), then I will remain in this status, therefore I will inherit all covenantal promises, eg attaining eschatological salvation.
So, basically, the solution is this:
All people are being made members in the Abrahamic covenant family and thereby saved at the moment of a cosmic Jom Kippur when Jesus was dying on the cross. In God's perspective above all time, all human individuals are in and only in this moment saved in Christ.
But in the course of human lives, some are loosing that status again by rebelling against the natural law in them (being lost without knowledge of special revelational law), some because they are denying allegiance to Christ, eg lacking obedient faith (John 3, 36b).
But in the end, the righteous judge will be blotting out people from the book of life because of the lives they lived in rebellion and not because he did not save them. He saved us all, but by holding fast on to our rebellion we all can and most of us humans will be loosing that salvational status. It is all about allegiance to Christ as head of the covenant people Ro 11, 24. Without allegiance, all can and will be broken off the tree of Abraham. This modell I am proposing solves the following difficulties: 1. The salvation status of children. They are initially saved - for an unspecified time till they are considered as in rebellion to the covenant. 2. The salvation of people who helped others without knowing Jesus as master. Jesus accepts their lifestyle choices as allegiance, for the amount of knowledge one has is proportional to the degree of obedience you need to have for being a faithful servant in allegiance to the messianic king.
3. The fact that it is possible to be blotted out of the book of life - you can not be blotted out if you never were written in! So this being blotted out implies a time when everyone blotted out was written in the book of life, eg "saved". 4. The judgment according to works is now inevitably necessary to find out who, why and when lost his/her status of "being member in the covenant family in good standing". It is not necessary for God but for us all to see the things like God is seeing them, for in his eyes some are already judged and lost. Ro 2, 6-11. So it is true - all were saved in a proleptical way at the cosmic Jom Kippur of Golgatha. But most will be falling from grace: they do not cherish the charis/the present that was given to them in Christ, by rebellion, eg denying the reciprocal present of allegiance. Now my own private speculation: I think this could have been the view of Pelagius: because people are already saved and the loosing of salvation is dependent on rebellion, and the amount of knowldedge one has correlates to the amount of faithfulness the king demands, people can and will be saved outside the sacraments of the church. And people in the church who live in rebellion will be lost even with the sacraments of the church.
But there is no such thing as effectual dammning inherited sin for all start being forgiven in Christ proleptically at Golgatha. In God's perspective, all individuals are saved proleptically in Christ at Golgatha and some are already lost and judged now and some are already gloryficated with Christ now. The NT statements about the salvation of people should be understood as an quantum mechanic superposition of different salvational positional states who are in the moment superpositioned and present in God's mind. But at death, we fall in a fixed state - the salvational wave function as superposition of two different possible states collapses to one state. But in the beginning, in God's eye everyone started as "saved". In one sentence: all human beings have been saved (proleptically at Golgatha) , but most will finally get lost because of false bad works. Even those with an insufficient "belief in Christ" that is not considered as "allegiance" by the judge according to works (belief as in James 2). Now is this works righteousness? I do not think so. We are gifted, but God specifies the demanded reaction to the gift he bestowed upon us in a certain way and declares his reaction to a lack of thankfulness (infernalism) .
Not a fan of NT wrights reading of Paul. It’s far away from how the Church has read Paul historically. It’s funny because you find many early church fathers who are at least closer to Luther than NT wrights take but wright and his camp still concentrate on Luther (who they even mischaracterize and who they don’t seem to understand). I’m not a Lutheran but it’s so tiresome.
You glibly claim to be an infernalist as one might mention one’s favourite beer. Do you not see the obscenity in infernalism? The monstrous God doesn’t disquieten you ever so slightly? Guess not: you’re saved. Bravo. So you can be cool with torture forever and discuss it with the levity of commentary on some football game?
He can be cool with torture all he wants, it doesn't exist. Universalism is the GOOD NEWS Jesus told us to go out and preach! These people are going to think we're heretics my brother but we must push on and tell the *real* GOOD NEWS!!
infernalist is another way to say fascist.
Another reason why Trinity doctrine is false, man made.
Rob bell?? Lol there's better books out there for universal salvation Patristic Universalism is a good one among many others
Thank you for the suggestion. Seems a nice work
Where my infernalist gang at?! 😤 #sheepANDgoats #hell #narrowroad
❤️
Your theology is complete nonsense. Did you forget about the account in Matthew 7:21-23, where Jesus said to those, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity". This is regarding the final judgment. After that, it's all over. No reconciliation, no repentance. That's the last judgment. Oh, you mean, some time after that, God changes His mind, has another judgment to give them another chance? That is absolute ridiculousness. Your argumentation is nothing but a rambling discourse of what you think or what your notions are, instead of what the Bible states categorically.
THERE IS NO RECONCILIATION YOU SAY? HAHAAHA
"....AND HAS GIVEN US THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION, this means, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES ON THEM, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."2Cor5(Notice he speaks in past, this is the prophetic past, it hasn't happend already)
You don't know what the ministry of reconciliation of 2Cor5 is. You don't know what the purpose of his blood is: "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth(MEN) or things in heaven(FALLEN ANGLES), having made peace THROUGH THE BLOOD of His cross."Col1:20
"that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him."Eph1:10
AS YOU CAN SEE, AT THE CONSUMATION OF TIMES HE WHILL "GATHER TOGETHER ALL THINGS //IN CHRIST//" AS WE SEE IN: "For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. BUT EACH ONE AT HIS OWN ORDER, FIRST CHRIST(WHEN HE ROSE UP), THEN THOSE WHO ARE HIS AT HIS COMING THEN THE END(TELOS=CONSUMATION OF TIMES""1Cor15
MAYBE YOU IGNORE THE WHOLE BIBLE! Make yourself a favor and learn what aionios means before listening to a stupid pastor.
Yeah, no. In the Bible hell is real and most people go to it. Stop trying to water it down
Calvinism = the gospel… for some.
So suicide comes about because that person mechanistically sees that as beautiful? How absurd.
It's amazing to me how hard believers will fight to keep and promote the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. It's such a revolting doctrine. Not worthy of God who is beauty, truth and love. X
How do you know your ears have not been tickled?
@@micme9520 Maybe you ignore 1Pet4:16 which teaches about the dead who did not believe while alive were later preached post-mortem so they can be saved aka LIVE TO GOD IN THE SPIRIT. THE "SOUL"(NEPHESH=UNION BODY+SPIRIT) THAT SINS IT SHALL DIE, NOT THE SPIRIT. DUH!
They are a pattern of the ones who die faithless in the future, that is why:
"....God is the savior of all especially those who believe, THIS COMMAND AND TEACH"1Tim4:10 DO YOU TEACH HE IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE?
This verse means all are saved (father forgive them) BUT some are not saved from hell which is aionios which your stupid pastor won't tell you means EON. NOT ETERNAL. EON LASTING HELL.
---------
"...and He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the whole world" 1Jn2:2
"...and we have seen and testify the Father has sent the Son TO BE THE SAIVOUR OF THE WORLD"1Jn4(DECLARING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING)
"BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD"
"AND IF I BE LIFTED UP I WILL DRAW ALL MEN TO MYSELF"
"....AND HAS GIVEN US THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION, this means, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES ON THEM, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."2Cor5
You don't know what the ministry of reconciliation of 2Cor5 is. You don't know what the purpose of his blood is: "and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth(MEN) or things in heaven(FALLEN ANGLES), having made peace THROUGH THE BLOOD of His cross."Col1:20
"that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him."Eph1:10
AS YOU CAN SEE, AT THE CONSUMATION OF TIMES HE WHILL "GATHER TOGETHER ALL THINGS //IN CHRIST//" AS WE SEE IN: "For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. BUT EACH ONE AT HIS OWN ORDER, FIRST CHRIST(WHEN HE ROSE UP), THEN THOSE WHO ARE HIS AT HIS COMING THEN THE END(TELOS=CONSUMATION OF TIMES""1Cor15
MAYBE YOU IGNORE THE WHOLE BIBLE! Make yourself a favor and learn what aionos means before listening to stupid pastor.
@@micme9520 The vast majority of early christians were universalists until the fifth century when they were persecuted by Rome, that should tell you something.
@@JTomas96 proof?
@@micme9520 Augustine himself, the roman father of eternal Hell said: "The vast majority of Christians believe not in unending torments". This was written in the fifth century.
Emperor Justinian, the juridical father of Eternal Torment, killed 30.000 people in the revolts of Nika, such a humble SON OF THE DEVIL, by their works you shall know them. ET is just a tool to control the dumb masses. In the later days we will have doctrines of demons. They say: "Behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin OF SOME" and "Father forgive SOME of them", this is unblibical and blasphemous. By their fruits you shall know them.
-----------
The wages of sin is death:
"...Christ has abolished death..."2tim
"...the last enemy to be abolished is death.."1Cor15
After they experience this wrath they will be restored: "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only, but for the sins of the whole world"1Jn2:2 "Just as the condemnation "came" to all men, so also the justification of life "came" to all men"Rom5:18 (In greek the verb does not even appear, it says EIS which is FORCED) "He is te savior of all, especially those who believe, THIS COMMAND AND TEACH"1Tim4:10
Death is just a banishing, Christ payed so the damned wouldn't be banished forever, but for Aion(Eon) "For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His BANISHED ones are not expelled from Him."2Sam14:14
If no one gets out of hell, then Christians are going to hell forever: "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into HELL FIRE- where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’FOR //EVERYONE// SHALL BE SALTED BY FIRE"Mk9
YOU ARE GOING TO HELL SIR.(Fire is just a parable of trials and Godly Grief(1Pet1:6-7), which worketh repentance.
He said to some believers they are going to Gehenna(Hell fire) as well:
"“You are the light of the world ... Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny."M5:14-16
Everyone will eventually get out. Hell is just a parable, but taking everything literal is preposterous: "AND WITHOUT A PARABLE HE DIDN'T SPOKE TO THE AUDIENCES".
---------
HOW COME HELL IS NOT MENTION NEITHER IN THE PENTATEUCH NEITHER IN THE OT NEITHER IN THE MAJORITY OF NT???? GOD MUST HATE HUMANITY SO MUCH. THE ONLY APARITION IN THE OT IS DAN 12 AND IT SAYS "OLAM PERDITION AND COMPTEMT" AS IN "OLAM HABA" OR "WORLD TO COME", YOU CAN'T TRANSLATE IT AS ETERNITY TO COME, BECAUSE THIS WORLD IS CALLED OLAM.
"And be not conformed to the knowledge of this Aion(Olam in greek), but be renewed in your understanding." / "The sons of this AIon are given in marriage"/ "I am with you even until the end of this Aion" Even the NKJ translators knew Aion is PERISHABLE TIME-SPAM SET BY GOD, because they translated "God promised BEFORE TIME BEGAN" while it actually says "God promised before times Aionios" Or "Before Perishable time appointed by God".
YOU EVEN HAVE THE WORD AIDIOIS WHICH TRULY MEANS ETERNAL BEING NEVER USED IN PUNISHMENTS LOL. THAT WOULD MEAN THE VERY PUNISHMENT DOES NOT EVEN HAVE A BEGINNING.
Anybody believing this doctrine of universal salvation is heavily deceived, and will not inherit the kingdom of God if you don't come away from it, because you have a false Spirit deceiving you.
All of you should know Jesus warned of false teachers in the last days, those deceiving themselves in the last days and heaping unto themselves false teachers. If you device yourself then that's your fault. God already warned you these things would happen in Scripture. If you choose to go to hell forever, then that's your choice for not turning to him in faith and repentance, and not being swayed by the rest of the world.
I have to disagree with you. Where in scripture does God, Jesus, Paul or any of the other apostles say that it's a requirement to believe in "hell " to receive salvation? The idea that God, being all powerful, all loving and all knowing is going to allow himself to lose most of mankind to a spirit being that he created, is ridiculous. Or that Satan has the power and ability to put a time limit on God's work. Hell is a pagan concept that came from Norse mythology. The more I talk to atheists, I realize that the doctrine of eternal burning in hell and annihilation is what is causing a falling away effect. To my understanding, beleif in Jesus's resurrection, repentance of sin and confession are required for salvation from eternal death.
Saying Christian Universalism is equal to apostasy is a hard sell, but it does create a lot of theological problems as it is difficult to square with the overall story and emphasis of the Bible. The risk is that one will reject God as evil if one finds out that everybody is not saved per the Bible.
The universalist has a narrow view of goodness and misses out on the possibility that God’s goodness might include his willingness to suffer the unrequited love of some of his creatures. God might see it as good to give the good gift of life to some for a time, even if it is rejected.
They also assume, along with the infernalists, that the soul is immortal by nature and not as a superadded gift. But the theme of the destruction of those that will not accept the God who suffers for love, but denounce such as evil, are said not to have a part in his life, but will be destroyed in hell, which is the second death.
Anhililationism (conditional immortality) combined with a true theodicy of suffering for love is the biblical alternative to universalism. At least as best as I can see.
@@jrhemmerich if God is going to annihilate most of mankind, and God is all knowing, I can't understand why God would tell mankind to multiply. If there's no chance of correction/purification, why would God resurrect the lost, give them life, judge them and then annihilate/murder them? Why have a second resurrection? Why not leave the lost dead.
Hebrews 9:27 for it is for man to die ONCE and then face judgment.
@@dalecampbell5617, I think we need to be humble about what we know. Do we know that most of mankind will be lost? We don’t know the future or what God is working. We have some reason to think that the current population of the world that is saved is greater than most of mankind in most of history up to this point. So we should be cautious about an excessive pessimism.
I would also suggest for your consideration whether it makes sense to speak of God murdering anyone. Murder is not just about killing, it caries the moral freight of a wrong done. But destruction of the body and soul is not a wrong done, but a just consequence for a temporal creature turning away from the Lord of life in their freedom. To invoke rationality is no answer for sin is not rational but sub-rational (all those that hate me love death, Prov. 8:36)
There is a chance of correction, but is it not written that the Lord suffers long with us in our disobedience (Rom 2:4). Most of his punishments are for correction, but that doesn’t rule out a final eschatological punishment for those who harden their hearts against that correction (Rom 2:5-6), especially if they call such punishment evil. It is quite distressing that many a universalist will join with the unbeliever in contending against God’s just judgement.
The point of the resurrection for the any who do not love the Lord of life is that judgement is not simply impersonal death in ignorance of the truth. Judgement is due for the victims who have been wronged, and is a proportional suffering for wrongs done before annihilation. And it is possible that even this suffering might be cut short in God’s mercy, but that is speculation. What we know is that God promised death to Adam for rebellion, and Jesus warned us to give proper attention to the fact that God can destroy both body and soul in hell (Mat. 10:28), and Paul speaks of the destruction of those that reject the Gospel (2 Thess 1:8), and Revelation states that there is a second death for the resurrected unbeliever (Rev 20:14). There is no conflict with Hebrews here, because the judgement occurs after the first death. One must be raised in order to be judged. While there is a fire of purification, that same fire destroys those who have no faith to be purified (1 Cor. 3:13).
We should not think that God is pleased with this destruction. It is very costly to him. To die and suffer for those who would come to reject and spurn his love. But he chose even to endure this unrequited love to show his love. He has counted the cost and determined, from the foundation of the world, that his sacrifice was meaningful even for those who reject it. Perhaps, as Paul suggests his wondrous mercy is made even more poignant thereby Rom 9:23).
I do not say, nor do I think scripture says, that God must do it this way out of ontological necessity. It seems there might be multiple possible worlds which are consistent with God’s nature and goodness (and a world of universal salvation is possible), or perhaps his perfect love is only shown through a sort of heroic suffering and some degree of loss. But knowing these possibilities might be above our pay grade. Thus humility again is in order.
What we can know from scripture, you will have to decide for yourself if this rings true, is we must become like him in his sufferings (Colossians 1:24) and when we see him we shall be like him (1 Jn. 3:2). Maybe it is enough to know that he does not ask others to suffer on his behalf, but is willing to suffer it himself, even in our place, and only asks that we reflect his likeness. That to me is a worthy God to follow, even if all are not saved.
That is what I would propose is the teaching of our Lord. But I’m still learning too. There is much deep water here. Blessings.
@@jrhemmerich Doesn't that not fit with the notion that it was better for Judas never to have been born?
Absolutely fair, respectfully done, and informative video. I’m grateful people like you exist 🩷