Daily ruling for September 1, 2021 - What happens if you copy a different land with Thespian's Stage in response to its third chapter ability as an Urza's Saga? Support Judging FtW on Patreon at / judgingftw
Oh, and one thing I like about this interaction is that it's a 4 star question that's a must-know interaction for a competitive constructed deck (legacy lands).
4:22 I was wondering "why doesn't amy respond to stifle by turning it into a mountain" and realized you're waiting to stifle until both abilities are on the stack
I saw the Blood Moon and Saga video. That video was a rollercoaster and deep dive into the rules only to say that the Saga died. I was expecting our land here to die.
Thespian stage is such a fun card. I can't remember if i mentioned it before but one time my commander was enchanted with song of the dryads, and i copied it with thespian stage to "free him" so to speak.
Keep in mind your commander is still a Legendary permanent with the same name as before. So the next time state-based actions are checked, the legend rule will apply and you'll have to choose one, obviously sacrificing the land one and returning it to the command zone. Also, the Thespian Stage copy won't count as a commander for effects such as the free spells like Fierce Guardianship, and it won't count towards the 21 commander damage thing.
@@mcklucker17 oh i'm aware of that, but it was literally "pay 2 mana, send your commander to the command zone and get a copy" in black. not that many cheap ways to get rid of a song of the dryads in monoblack
Oh what a crazy ruling! Not sure if it’s quite that difficult if you’ve got much experience with sagas, but I do really like this interaction. I’d build a deck around it if I didn’t already hate blood moon.
Cool, thanks for using my question! I did actually pull this off in edh the other day, which prompted me to check that we ruled it right. It was pretty sweet!
@@alaraplatt8104 In the scenario, it was stated that "we can do a little bit better than countering the copy ability", meaning the copy ability and the chapter 3 are both on the stack when Nick is casting stifle. Because the copy ability is on the stack, Amy has tapped the thespian stage, and can't activate the copy ability again. In this scenario, Nick isn't going to just stifle the chapter ability with nothing else on the stack, since his goal seemed to be to destroy the land.
@@KingKiinankaali sorry reading this quite late, but thankful for this thread in the comments. I think the point I was looking for is that state based actions are checked when stifle resolves and before the copy ability resolves, so the saga is in the graveyard before it can become a mountain. It took me a while but I think I got there.
If you stifle the 3rd saga activation, can't the controller change the stage to a different land in response to stifle in order to keep the land alive?
Yes, but then you'd have to choose not to activate the copy ability in response to the chapter ability, which means that if your opponent does not have a Stifle (a reasonable assumption), you lose the land when they pass priority.
Does this mean that if you have a Vampire Hexmage you could sacrifice it in response to the 3rd ability going on the stack, remove all lore counters and start it again?
Yes, though you'd need a (new) Vampire Hexmage every 3 turns. Power Conduit allows you to keep it around forever and is also an artifact to make the constructs bigger.
Really helpful didn't realize I had the potential to do this in my titania deck that just so happens to run stage depths as a combo package while also being on saga as way to find zuran orb
Really like this content. :) If I may offer a suggestion, would be to increase the volume of the videos all around. It's always lower compared to every other video/app. Cheers!
I'm confused about the stifle section. If Anna hasn't triggered Thespian stage copy ability when the stifle is cast, she could do the ability in response to stifle and thus not have to sacrifice. if she HAS already stacked the copy ability wouldn't there still be an ability on the stack after stifle so wouldn't that resolve before state based are checked or are state based checked after every resolution? The timing seems weird to me and hard to explaine.
Amy would have put the Thespian stage ability on the stack in response to the stage 3 trigger, and then the opponent plays the Stifle and decides which of the two effects to counter. The CR 705.4s ruling specifically says chapter ability so once the counter resolves and that is off the stack the state based action happens before the copy ability resolves.
State based actions are not just checked after every resolution, they are checked even more often. They are checked whenever a player would receive priority.
You can target it, the ability will resolve, the damage will be prevented unless there is some effect that says damage can't be prevented. (Stomp, leyline of punishment)
Ayy! I called this one right! Or at least, everyone about it except the stifle value play anyway, didn't see the line with countering the chapter ability
Comes up in legacy with loam with land combo vs control because of a lack of wastelands to stop the ever increasing number of constructs just in case you can't find depths in time.
Hello if i have two Thespian Stage and copy another one that have the saga ability for exemple, they both become the same copy(with the abilitys of the targeted stage?)
You copy that card as printed, modified by any changes to copiable values so the copy will have two copies of the copy ability, but it will not have the abilities gained from resolving chapter abilities.
So combining this with the blood moon ruling, if a thespian stage copies urzas saga, gets the chapter 1 and 2 abilities resolved, then copies a non-saga (nonbasic) land, and opponent plays a blood moon, am I correct in saying the thespian stage becomes a mountain but still has the saga abilities and also the thespian copy ability? Seems sweet
Only if it copies basic. If it copies nonbasic it has saga abilities but no copy ability, since copy ability is layer 1, bloood moon layer 4 and abilities given by chapter abilities layer 6.
Urza's Saga has been a nightmare at my table. We love the card sure, but we gotta be at 10+ train wrecks where game night is halted because no one knows what to do with an interaction with the saga. People who have played 20+ years as well.
So if i activate tezzeret, betrayer of flesh to turn non creature artifact into a 4/4 and then enchant that creature with metamorphic alteration, it would still be 4/4 since this continuous effect is a layer above?
I guess I need to learn more about Sagas if I’m asking this, but maybe someone can help me understand by answering this question: why does Mountain (née Thespian’s Stage) not have the Chapter III ability of Urza’s Saga, but it does have the Chapters I and II abilities?
So the Mountain version of Thespians Stage won’t have the chapter I or Ii abilities of Urza’s Saga, it’ll have the lingering effects of those abilities resolving. The chapter I ability of Urza’s saga is a triggered ability that adds an activated ability to Urza’s saga when it resolves. The effect that adds the activated ability lasts for the rest of the game, and isn’t part of the land’s copiable values. This means that when Thespian’s Stage copies the mountain, it will still be under the effect that adds the activated ability, and so will retain the ability to tap for colourless mana. Similarly for the chapter II ability. This also means that if another card copies Thespian’s Stage it won’t get the Urza’s abilities and will just be a Mountain with Thespian’s Stage’s copy ability.
25 boxes! ... It's tradition, even if no more boxes have been added! This is crazy-cool tech! Thespian's Stage continues to have wild uses. I wonder if this is useful for anything? Every time I thought I had this one figured out, you came up with a new curveball for me. Hope you're having a great day! PS: If something makes you add two or more lore counters to a Saga at the same time (say, with something like Kaldheim Vorinclex), does it trigger all the abilities on the way? Or just the ability matching the number of counters?
All chapter abilities with a chapter number less than or equal to the number of lore counters (and which have not already triggered from this set of lore counters) will be put on the stack simultaneously, in whatever order you choose. The really fun part is when you get out ways to remove lore counters from active sagas and trigger their abilities all over again.
@@robertlandman8546Interestingly, this is NOT the case for Sagas that (1) have the Read Ahead ability AND (2) entered the battlefield on the turn this occurs. This means, in the super-niche scenario that you've played a read-ahead saga, had it enter on one lore counter, then played Vorinclex and proliferated, you'd get the first and third abilities, but not the second. This also works if you (somehow) flash in the Saga in your upkeep, wait for it to resolve with one counter, then flash in Vorinclex-you'd go from one counter to three after your draw step.
@@leandrovallejo ahh I understand. Amy holds priority when the first trigger goes on the stack, activates the ability to change thespian stage. Nick gets priority and plays stifle, targeting the first trigger that is still on the stack. Stifle resolves, state based actions are checked, thespian stage gets sac’d. Then when the land-changing ability goes to resolve, it fizzles or whatever because the thespian stage is gone. Neat trick.
just to clarify for the end result of the example "mountain (nee thespian stage)" did the thespian stage need to be the urza's saga before the lore counter trigger happens to gain the ability to make constructs or when it copys the urza saga does it gain the effects thus keeping them forever?
Hi, I have a question about something I witnessed during a tournament in my local store. It was the third match between affinity and UW control (modern), and I realized that the UW control player (Amy) had played a stony silence but, the affinity player (John), was still producing mana from a Darksteel citadel. I said that stony silence also affects mana abilities from artifact lands. After this, Amy said that during the second match she also played a stony silence and John was also using mana from artifact lands. Considering that Jhon won the first match and Amy the second, which would be your ruling in this mess?? By the way, love your videos, they are very instructive!!
Just because an infraction occurred during a previous match I don't think any judge would change the outcome of that match. Also note that both Amy and John committed an infraction here, Game Rule Violation for John and Failure to Maintain Game State for Amy. And considering Amy won despite the fact John was able to use his lands, the end results probably wouldn't be different any way.
so if you have this construct making mountain in play and a player plays blood moon the "mountain" would still have the abilties because it is now a basic land right?
Yes, it is a basic land. But it would keep some of the abilities regardless of that. Because it would lose all abilities in layer 4 and then gain the ability to tap for colorless and to make constructs in layer 6.
And also if someone play a bloodmoon The mountain NEE urzas saga still have their extra abilties , but if then copy a nonbasics land It then turns into a mountain and loses allí their adquired abilties , also true if a opponent Cast spreading seas to The Mountain NEE urzas saga
Sorry for the necro, but I have a couple of questions that are beyond this video content. Assume that there is in play a Thespian Stage which had copied an Urza's saga, got 3 counters (thus gaining the abilties of providing colorless mana and creating constructs), and after that had copied a basic forest. So now there is a basic forest with Thespian's copy ability and Saga's abilities 1) what happens to the Saga's abilities if the lore counters are removed? I think the abilities should remain because they don't depend on the number of lore counters but are gained as the counters are put on the saga 2) If another thespian stage would copy the Forest/Stage, would the second Stage have the ability to create construct (since it's an ability gained by the Forest permanent which is not a saga anymore)? Thank you
1) The counters are irrelevant unless it becomes a Saga again. 2) If another Thespian's stage would copy the first, it would be a Forest with the ability to tap for green and twice the ability to become a copy of another land but no other abilities, it would also have no counters. The abilities are granted to that specific permanent (the first stage), and are not copiable.
@@Tharkonthanks for the answer, I figured out in the meantime: if the stage would have copied the saga's granted abilities too, it would have immediately the ability to tap for colorless (at least).
I doubt it was intentional but referring to the cloned card as "née Thespian's Stage" makes total sense since née is the feminine form and the French name for Thespian's Stage (Scène de théâtre) is also feminine
Whether this is correct is debatable because while scène is female, the word stage itself is male. (The English word was borrowed from French a long time ago when it was spelled estage and the French word has since evolved to étage, which is male).
Can you sacrifice codie vociferous codex to phyrexian tower and use that maná to activate codie vociferous codex activated ability? It works on arena but i thought it shouldn't work since Codie is not in play to be tapped if you sacrifice it to tower, and we must activate maná abilities before paying other costs. Right?
Assuming you're already familiar with mana payment windows, the relevant rule is 601.2h, which states that you pay costs that don't involve random elements in any order. That means you can tap Codie first and then activate the Tower's mana ability during the payment window for Codie's ability. 601.2h The player pays the total cost. First, they pay all costs that don’t involve random elements or moving objects from the library to a public zone, in any order. Then they pay all remaining costs in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can’t be paid.
@@austintaing but rule 601.2g says maná abilities must be activated before costs are paid. Tapping Codie is a cost, no? 601.2g: If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, "Mana Abilities"). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
@@SpitefulAZ It looks like you're right. That's the same reason you can't tap a creature for Convoke and sacrifice it to an Altar to pay for the same spell. That makes it an Arena bug, then. Weird.
@@austintaing there's a chance it's not a glitch. The rule might mean that maná activities must be activated before maná Costs are paid, but tapping a creature may be done first. but this is not the exact wording that the CR uses. I have asked around but i haven't found a judge that explains it this way so I'm not sure.
No. The urza saga says "gain: tap for C", that's the gain part which allow thespian stage to keep the ability. iirc that's the only land which gain something along the way.
The reason it can't exist with Blood Moon out is it also loses all its chapter abilities. If you have no chapter abilities, any number of lore counters, even zero, is too many. The state-based action that makes sagas go away doesn't care if it has too few lore counters, though. Only if it has too many.
Are you saying AMY or NE'E? I tried using closed captions and it says amy but the card says ne'e. I'm a little hard of hearing. Oh well really cool interaction with stifle. Always remember to check state based actions before and after resolving a spell or ability on the stack!
Née means the name by which you were previously known. It's most commonly used by women who have taken on their husband's surname, such as Susan Smith, née Jones (Jones being her maiden name). In Dave's example, Urza's Saga was previously Thespian's Stage.
One thing I dont get: Thespian''s Stage is in play, Amy puts Urza's Sage in play and uses Thespian's Stage's ability to copy Urza's Saga. Since Thespian's Stage was already in play, it won't get a lore counter until the next Main Phase I. Wasn't there a rule to sacrifice sagas without lore counters? So all of this nice interaction is meaningless without the first lore counter, right?
The rule is that sagas with more lore counters on them than their highest chapter ability get sacrificed. Ordinarily, there's no problem with having a saga that has no lore counters on it. If something takes away the chapter abilities, that's a different story, though.
You have to activate Mirage Mirror during your upkeep or draw step to make sure it can receive a lore counter at the start of your first main phase and then either proliferate or do the same a turn later. After that it will permanently have acquired the mana ability and the token creation ability and stop being a saga automatically at end of turn without worrying about a third counter being put on.
But my question is, what happens when you copy an Urza's Saga with Thespian Stage originally? Does the Thes Stage have 0 lore counters to start, but already has the abilities of an Urzas Saga? Or does the Thes Stage need to gain the abilities of Urza Saga by going down its own chapters.
Ideally you would copy it during your upkeep, draw step or your opponent's end step so you can immediately add the first lore counter in your main phase which grants it the ability to tap for colorless (which interestingly it had just lost when it became a copy).
I had some fun today with sylvan library along side - howling mind, kami of the crescent moon, and anvil of bogardan. What the hell is that? 😂😂 I scooped since I couldn’t make heads or tales of that. I would rather not even try than play incorrectly but if you have any help that would be wonderful, especially with one of them or as they stack how that affects my draw step with sylvan library
Keep any cards that you draw this turn separate, you may look at them and they are still considered to be in your hand. Then order the triggers however you want assuming they are all yours. Then resolve them last in first out, still keeping any cards drawn separate. When Anvil of Bogardan resolves you can discard from the separate pile or from the rest of your hand as you see fit. Then when Sylvan Library resolves choose 2 of the cards in the pile you kept separate, for each of those cards, pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If Sylvan Library is not the last to resolve, you will then draw those cards again with the remaining effects. Once all Sylvan Libraries have resolved you can stop keeping the cards separate.
I love the usage of alter arts to represent cloning effects! Very educational
Oh, and one thing I like about this interaction is that it's a 4 star question that's a must-know interaction for a competitive constructed deck (legacy lands).
4:22 I was wondering "why doesn't amy respond to stifle by turning it into a mountain" and realized you're waiting to stifle until both abilities are on the stack
I saw the Blood Moon and Saga video. That video was a rollercoaster and deep dive into the rules only to say that the Saga died. I was expecting our land here to die.
The stiffle part is great! I hope that this kind of interaction could happen in a real tournament
Thespian stage is such a fun card. I can't remember if i mentioned it before but one time my commander was enchanted with song of the dryads, and i copied it with thespian stage to "free him" so to speak.
Keep in mind your commander is still a Legendary permanent with the same name as before. So the next time state-based actions are checked, the legend rule will apply and you'll have to choose one, obviously sacrificing the land one and returning it to the command zone. Also, the Thespian Stage copy won't count as a commander for effects such as the free spells like Fierce Guardianship, and it won't count towards the 21 commander damage thing.
@@mcklucker17 oh i'm aware of that, but it was literally "pay 2 mana, send your commander to the command zone and get a copy" in black. not that many cheap ways to get rid of a song of the dryads in monoblack
Oh what a crazy ruling! Not sure if it’s quite that difficult if you’ve got much experience with sagas, but I do really like this interaction. I’d build a deck around it if I didn’t already hate blood moon.
I was surprised by how deep this question went. Super informative!
That was pretty cool, while still pretty intuitive. I have both in my Kozilek edh deck and will be sure to copy it the next time I have the chance.
I put Thespian's Stage in my commander deck along with Urza's Saga a few weeks ago. Created some fun teaching moments in the games :P
"Urza's Saga (née Thespian's Stage)" was absolutely hilarious. good ruling!
This just got recommended to me, I never played magic in my whole life, still watched the whole thing, lmao.
Cool, thanks for using my question! I did actually pull this off in edh the other day, which prompted me to check that we ruled it right. It was pretty sweet!
Just don't let your Stage Saga get hit by blood moon
Wait, couldn't she respond to the stifle targeting the chapter 3 trigger by activating the thespian stage, turning it into a mountain anyways?
was wondering this as well.
The copy ability requires tapping the land
@@KingKiinankaali why wouldn't it be untapped?
@@alaraplatt8104 In the scenario, it was stated that "we can do a little bit better than countering the copy ability", meaning the copy ability and the chapter 3 are both on the stack when Nick is casting stifle. Because the copy ability is on the stack, Amy has tapped the thespian stage, and can't activate the copy ability again. In this scenario, Nick isn't going to just stifle the chapter ability with nothing else on the stack, since his goal seemed to be to destroy the land.
@@KingKiinankaali sorry reading this quite late, but thankful for this thread in the comments. I think the point I was looking for is that state based actions are checked when stifle resolves and before the copy ability resolves, so the saga is in the graveyard before it can become a mountain. It took me a while but I think I got there.
If you stifle the 3rd saga activation, can't the controller change the stage to a different land in response to stifle in order to keep the land alive?
Yes, but then you'd have to choose not to activate the copy ability in response to the chapter ability, which means that if your opponent does not have a Stifle (a reasonable assumption), you lose the land when they pass priority.
Does this mean that if you have a Vampire Hexmage you could sacrifice it in response to the 3rd ability going on the stack, remove all lore counters and start it again?
Yes, though you'd need a (new) Vampire Hexmage every 3 turns. Power Conduit allows you to keep it around forever and is also an artifact to make the constructs bigger.
Really helpful didn't realize I had the potential to do this in my titania deck that just so happens to run stage depths as a combo package while also being on saga as way to find zuran orb
Really like this content. :) If I may offer a suggestion, would be to increase the volume of the videos all around. It's always lower compared to every other video/app. Cheers!
Thank you so much for your detailed video(s)! This is exactly what I was looking for you are a legend!
I'm confused about the stifle section. If Anna hasn't triggered Thespian stage copy ability when the stifle is cast, she could do the ability in response to stifle and thus not have to sacrifice. if she HAS already stacked the copy ability wouldn't there still be an ability on the stack after stifle so wouldn't that resolve before state based are checked or are state based checked after every resolution? The timing seems weird to me and hard to explaine.
Amy would have put the Thespian stage ability on the stack in response to the stage 3 trigger, and then the opponent plays the Stifle and decides which of the two effects to counter. The CR 705.4s ruling specifically says chapter ability so once the counter resolves and that is off the stack the state based action happens before the copy ability resolves.
State based actions are not just checked after every resolution, they are checked even more often. They are checked whenever a player would receive priority.
This is exactly what I needed because I thought about doing this myself and I found this video thank you for clearing my mind
Can you do Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar's activated ability targeting a Archon of Absolution? What happens?
You can target it, the ability will resolve, the damage will be prevented unless there is some effect that says damage can't be prevented. (Stomp, leyline of punishment)
Can I still search for the artifact after I turned Thespian's Stage into a different land after chapter 3 triggering?
Ayy! I called this one right!
Or at least, everyone about it except the stifle value play anyway, didn't see the line with countering the chapter ability
Why a mountain though? Obviously Island > Mountain.
Urza's Saga was sad it didn't get to be a Mountain (and live) during the Blood Moon episode, so I took the opportunity here.
What happens to static keywords like indestructible/hexproof from Cascading cataracts or lotus field once the stage copies something new?
They'll go away
Comes up in legacy with loam with land combo vs control because of a lack of wastelands to stop the ever increasing number of constructs just in case you can't find depths in time.
This interaction is absolutely insane
Hello if i have two Thespian Stage and copy another one that have the saga ability for exemple, they both become the same copy(with the abilitys of the targeted stage?)
You copy that card as printed, modified by any changes to copiable values so the copy will have two copies of the copy ability, but it will not have the abilities gained from resolving chapter abilities.
So combining this with the blood moon ruling, if a thespian stage copies urzas saga, gets the chapter 1 and 2 abilities resolved, then copies a non-saga (nonbasic) land, and opponent plays a blood moon, am I correct in saying the thespian stage becomes a mountain but still has the saga abilities and also the thespian copy ability? Seems sweet
Only if it copies basic. If it copies nonbasic it has saga abilities but no copy ability, since copy ability is layer 1, bloood moon layer 4 and abilities given by chapter abilities layer 6.
Urza's Saga has been a nightmare at my table. We love the card sure, but we gotta be at 10+ train wrecks where game night is halted because no one knows what to do with an interaction with the saga. People who have played 20+ years as well.
So if i activate tezzeret, betrayer of flesh to turn non creature artifact into a 4/4 and then enchant that creature with metamorphic alteration, it would still be 4/4 since this continuous effect is a layer above?
Assuming you do not choose a vehicle for Metamorphic Alteration, it is indeed a 4/4. It is also still an artifact (and a creature).
I guess I need to learn more about Sagas if I’m asking this, but maybe someone can help me understand by answering this question: why does Mountain (née Thespian’s Stage) not have the Chapter III ability of Urza’s Saga, but it does have the Chapters I and II abilities?
So the Mountain version of Thespians Stage won’t have the chapter I or Ii abilities of Urza’s Saga, it’ll have the lingering effects of those abilities resolving. The chapter I ability of Urza’s saga is a triggered ability that
adds an activated ability to Urza’s saga when it resolves. The effect that adds the activated ability lasts for the rest of the game, and isn’t part of the land’s copiable values. This means that when Thespian’s Stage copies the mountain, it will still be under the effect that adds the activated ability, and so will retain the ability to tap for colourless mana. Similarly for the chapter II ability. This also means that if another card copies Thespian’s Stage it won’t get the Urza’s abilities and will just be a Mountain with Thespian’s Stage’s copy ability.
I'm gonna have to rewatch this one a couple more times lol
25 boxes! ... It's tradition, even if no more boxes have been added! This is crazy-cool tech! Thespian's Stage continues to have wild uses. I wonder if this is useful for anything? Every time I thought I had this one figured out, you came up with a new curveball for me. Hope you're having a great day!
PS: If something makes you add two or more lore counters to a Saga at the same time (say, with something like Kaldheim Vorinclex), does it trigger all the abilities on the way? Or just the ability matching the number of counters?
All chapter abilities with a chapter number less than or equal to the number of lore counters (and which have not already triggered from this set of lore counters) will be put on the stack simultaneously, in whatever order you choose.
The really fun part is when you get out ways to remove lore counters from active sagas and trigger their abilities all over again.
@@robertlandman8546Interestingly, this is NOT the case for Sagas that (1) have the Read Ahead ability AND (2) entered the battlefield on the turn this occurs. This means, in the super-niche scenario that you've played a read-ahead saga, had it enter on one lore counter, then played Vorinclex and proliferated, you'd get the first and third abilities, but not the second. This also works if you (somehow) flash in the Saga in your upkeep, wait for it to resolve with one counter, then flash in Vorinclex-you'd go from one counter to three after your draw step.
If you stifle the chapter 3 ability, can't Amy just respond to Stifle with the Thespian Stage ability?
You're supposed to stifle once Amy activates Thespian's ability
@@leandrovallejo ahh I understand. Amy holds priority when the first trigger goes on the stack, activates the ability to change thespian stage. Nick gets priority and plays stifle, targeting the first trigger that is still on the stack. Stifle resolves, state based actions are checked, thespian stage gets sac’d. Then when the land-changing ability goes to resolve, it fizzles or whatever because the thespian stage is gone. Neat trick.
just to clarify for the end result of the example "mountain (nee thespian stage)" did the thespian stage need to be the urza's saga before the lore counter trigger happens to gain the ability to make constructs or when it copys the urza saga does it gain the effects thus keeping them forever?
Needs to be saga for cahpter abilities to go to stack once they are on stack doesn't matter what it copies, it is gonna get those abilities.
Hi, I have a question about something I witnessed during a tournament in my local store. It was the third match between affinity and UW control (modern), and I realized that the UW control player (Amy) had played a stony silence but, the affinity player (John), was still producing mana from a Darksteel citadel. I said that stony silence also affects mana abilities from artifact lands. After this, Amy said that during the second match she also played a stony silence and John was also using mana from artifact lands. Considering that Jhon won the first match and Amy the second, which would be your ruling in this mess??
By the way, love your videos, they are very instructive!!
Just because an infraction occurred during a previous match I don't think any judge would change the outcome of that match. Also note that both Amy and John committed an infraction here, Game Rule Violation for John and Failure to Maintain Game State for Amy. And considering Amy won despite the fact John was able to use his lands, the end results probably wouldn't be different any way.
so if you have this construct making mountain in play and a player plays blood moon the "mountain" would still have the abilties because it is now a basic land right?
Yes, it is a basic land. But it would keep some of the abilities regardless of that. Because it would lose all abilities in layer 4 and then gain the ability to tap for colorless and to make constructs in layer 6.
I don't understand the stifle interaction. Can't Amy just activate the transform effect in response to stifle to save the land?
No, because Thespian Stage requires you to tap the land in order to use its activated ability.
What happens if you copy a "fully upgraded" stage? Will the copy also have the add colorless and token-creating abilities????
No
you're awesome dude, new sub and big fan
omg that’s is a seriously tough 4 star question!!!!
And also if someone play a bloodmoon The mountain NEE urzas saga still have their extra abilties , but if then copy a nonbasics land It then turns into a mountain and loses allí their adquired abilties , also true if a opponent Cast spreading seas to The Mountain NEE urzas saga
Blood moon is layer 4, chapter abilities layer 6, can't remove those,
Sorry for the necro, but I have a couple of questions that are beyond this video content.
Assume that there is in play a Thespian Stage which had copied an Urza's saga, got 3 counters (thus gaining the abilties of providing colorless mana and creating constructs), and after that had copied a basic forest.
So now there is a basic forest with Thespian's copy ability and Saga's abilities
1) what happens to the Saga's abilities if the lore counters are removed? I think the abilities should remain because they don't depend on the number of lore counters but are gained as the counters are put on the saga
2) If another thespian stage would copy the Forest/Stage, would the second Stage have the ability to create construct (since it's an ability gained by the Forest permanent which is not a saga anymore)?
Thank you
1) The counters are irrelevant unless it becomes a Saga again.
2) If another Thespian's stage would copy the first, it would be a Forest with the ability to tap for green and twice the ability to become a copy of another land but no other abilities, it would also have no counters. The abilities are granted to that specific permanent (the first stage), and are not copiable.
@@Tharkonthanks for the answer, I figured out in the meantime: if the stage would have copied the saga's granted abilities too, it would have immediately the ability to tap for colorless (at least).
If I play clockspinning in response to the third ability trigger removing a lore counter, the saga is not sacrificed. Right?
Correct, the same happens with Vampire Hexmage and Power Conduit.
I doubt it was intentional but referring to the cloned card as "née Thespian's Stage" makes total sense since née is the feminine form and the French name for Thespian's Stage (Scène de théâtre) is also feminine
Whether this is correct is debatable because while scène is female, the word stage itself is male. (The English word was borrowed from French a long time ago when it was spelled estage and the French word has since evolved to étage, which is male).
Can you sacrifice codie vociferous codex to phyrexian tower and use that maná to activate codie vociferous codex activated ability? It works on arena but i thought it shouldn't work since Codie is not in play to be tapped if you sacrifice it to tower, and we must activate maná abilities before paying other costs. Right?
Assuming you're already familiar with mana payment windows, the relevant rule is 601.2h, which states that you pay costs that don't involve random elements in any order. That means you can tap Codie first and then activate the Tower's mana ability during the payment window for Codie's ability.
601.2h The player pays the total cost. First, they pay all costs that don’t involve random elements or moving objects from the library to a public zone, in any order. Then they pay all remaining costs in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can’t be paid.
@@austintaing but rule 601.2g says maná abilities must be activated before costs are paid. Tapping Codie is a cost, no?
601.2g: If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, "Mana Abilities"). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
@@SpitefulAZ It looks like you're right. That's the same reason you can't tap a creature for Convoke and sacrifice it to an Altar to pay for the same spell. That makes it an Arena bug, then. Weird.
@@austintaing there's a chance it's not a glitch. The rule might mean that maná activities must be activated before maná Costs are paid, but tapping a creature may be done first. but this is not the exact wording that the CR uses. I have asked around but i haven't found a judge that explains it this way so I'm not sure.
Okay, that is pretty damn cool.
so you´re saying... if i copy several lands with thespian stage, it´ll keep all the abilities of these lands?
No. The urza saga says "gain: tap for C", that's the gain part which allow thespian stage to keep the ability. iirc that's the only land which gain something along the way.
I thought urzas saga can't exist without a lore counter? Like you said in the blood moon video.
The reason it can't exist with Blood Moon out is it also loses all its chapter abilities. If you have no chapter abilities, any number of lore counters, even zero, is too many. The state-based action that makes sagas go away doesn't care if it has too few lore counters, though. Only if it has too many.
Are you saying AMY or NE'E? I tried using closed captions and it says amy but the card says ne'e. I'm a little hard of hearing. Oh well really cool interaction with stifle. Always remember to check state based actions before and after resolving a spell or ability on the stack!
née just means "originally called", as in the Urza's Saga was originally called Thespian Stage since it was copied using Thespian Stage's ability
Née means the name by which you were previously known. It's most commonly used by women who have taken on their husband's surname, such as Susan Smith, née Jones (Jones being her maiden name). In Dave's example, Urza's Saga was previously Thespian's Stage.
@@NonMeusNomen Thanks!
@@Il_Dilettante Thanks!
One thing I dont get:
Thespian''s Stage is in play, Amy puts Urza's Sage in play and uses Thespian's Stage's ability to copy Urza's Saga. Since Thespian's Stage was already in play, it won't get a lore counter until the next Main Phase I. Wasn't there a rule to sacrifice sagas without lore counters? So all of this nice interaction is meaningless without the first lore counter, right?
The rule is that sagas with more lore counters on them than their highest chapter ability get sacrificed. Ordinarily, there's no problem with having a saga that has no lore counters on it. If something takes away the chapter abilities, that's a different story, though.
@@JudgingFtW Thank you for clarifying!
My thing is the one with urza's saga and Mirror merage.
😅 I hope this gets seen.
You have to activate Mirage Mirror during your upkeep or draw step to make sure it can receive a lore counter at the start of your first main phase and then either proliferate or do the same a turn later. After that it will permanently have acquired the mana ability and the token creation ability and stop being a saga automatically at end of turn without worrying about a third counter being put on.
But my question is, what happens when you copy an Urza's Saga with Thespian Stage originally? Does the Thes Stage have 0 lore counters to start, but already has the abilities of an Urzas Saga? Or does the Thes Stage need to gain the abilities of Urza Saga by going down its own chapters.
Ideally you would copy it during your upkeep, draw step or your opponent's end step so you can immediately add the first lore counter in your main phase which grants it the ability to tap for colorless (which interestingly it had just lost when it became a copy).
Lands going to end up banned o e day
When you think you understand advanced magic . . . . . .
I knew all of this! I play lands with 4 saga, though, so I kinda have to :p
Thanks dave love you mwah
I also had another game with chasm skulker and sylvan library too. Does it give 3 counters even if I don’t keep the cards?
Yes.
I had some fun today with sylvan library along side - howling mind, kami of the crescent moon, and anvil of bogardan. What the hell is that? 😂😂 I scooped since I couldn’t make heads or tales of that. I would rather not even try than play incorrectly but if you have any help that would be wonderful, especially with one of them or as they stack how that affects my draw step with sylvan library
Keep any cards that you draw this turn separate, you may look at them and they are still considered to be in your hand. Then order the triggers however you want assuming they are all yours. Then resolve them last in first out, still keeping any cards drawn separate. When Anvil of Bogardan resolves you can discard from the separate pile or from the rest of your hand as you see fit. Then when Sylvan Library resolves choose 2 of the cards in the pile you kept separate, for each of those cards, pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If Sylvan Library is not the last to resolve, you will then draw those cards again with the remaining effects. Once all Sylvan Libraries have resolved you can stop keeping the cards separate.
Go thespian stage :)