Meet the Community of The Manitou Incline in Colorado | Salomon TV
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- The Manitou Incline, or simply “The Incline”, is one of Colorado’s most famous hiking trails. Gaining over 2000ft of elevation in less than a mile, the trail is the remains of a decommissioned funicular railway. Famous for its sweeping views and steep grade the Incline has in recent years become a focal point for an eccentric, off-kilter community. “Inclined”, dives into this community and explores how a one-mile section of trail has managed to bring people together from all walks of life.
Featured Athletes:
STIAN ANGERMUND-VIK
Featured:
JOE GRAY
ROGER AUSTIN
GREG CUMMINGS
STEVE STERMER
JORDAN CIAMBRONE
JASON KOOP
MARTIN FRICK
ERIC SWAB
TIM BERGSTEN
BRANDON STAPANOWICH
CLOVIS JOHNSTON
ALAN BRUX
KEN JARAY
Key Credits:
Director: DEAN LESLIE
Producers: HANNAH SLEZACEK & DEAN LESLIE
Editor: DEAN LESLIE
Cinematographer: DEAN LESLIE
Music:
Against the Clock by RHYTHM SCOTT
Eminence Landscapes [Pizzicato version] by IAN POST
Showtime by ALON PERETZ
Puddles by STANLEY GURVICH
The World Inside by RODELLOS MACHINE
Hold on by ELAD PEREZ
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#TimeToPlay
I used to go hike Incline 2-3x per week when I lived in COS 11 years ago. It's amazing to see how it has blown up and rails are all fixed up. I even blew up my ankle running down in the moon. I really miss that place. Getting very emotional watching this video as I miss my late dog who always joined me for every session there. Rest in peace Sally dog.
UA-cam at its finest... I'd never heard of the Incline before watching this but somehow the algorithm threw it into my feed. What a film, what a story, what a place. Thank you for making this!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Wow they made my home city look like a fun place to be.
This movie about the Manitou Incline is why I moved here - The idea of having that in my backyard, calling to me and keeping me young, is what drew me here to Manitou Springs from another state.
I lived in Colorado Springs and never took the time to hike the incline sadly. I did hike Pikes Peak however.
My dad took us up the incline on the old train. He briefed my sister and I first regarding any catastropic mechanical failure simply telling us that if anything happened, to jump immedietely! Dad was a pilot and a veteren, didn't fear much but he sure didn't like that inclined railway LOL
i did pikes peak marathon yrs ago, and have gone back several times to CO- was at garden of the gods in june. i'll get there one day lol
There are people running up and down Mt. Fuji and people in their 90s who do it in under a day. This kind of thing definitely does happen in other places in the world.
I get trying at once, but all those people would give me pause to find a more solitude trail. Looks awesome though. I imagine the locals go before the crowds get there.
I'm a hiker, but if they ever tear down our incline up Lookout Mountain here in Chattanooga, we'll revolt.
La mejor manera de entrenar para la Cazeria!!! :-) (Best Way to Train Prior to Hunting Season) ;-)
I'm sure weddings have happened at the top - but that would be one hilarious invitation. "We're getting married! Ceremony...1mile up. Good luck!"
A month ago having family dinner. My niece ask me if i want to hike the incline for the 1st time with her and i said let's do it!!. I don't work out and I'm 236lbs. Out of shape lol!!!! Took me 2hrs. To get to the top. Loved every minute of it! Did twice in 2 weeks and planning hiking more before winter starts. I don't track my steps or time.i just enjoy the moment.
That's AWESOME! Well done! See you on the trails :)
Awesome!!!
p
Whether you enjoyed every minute of it is highly in question.
So, you're lying.
I’m 12 and live like 15 min from there! My family and I do it almost every week and my best time on strava is 30:16. I want to try to get below 30:00 soon
Way to go Carson! We hope you manage to make it below 30:00 💪🏻
carson leppert and? Did you get it already?
Bravo!
This video is one of the reasons I watch UA-cam. What a great, positive and inspiring video. I go to Colorado semi annually to hike and enjoy nature. This trail is now on my to do list. Great video, god bless!
UA-cam really brings value to the world.
yeah, masochism is neat. creep.
@@bkbj8282 ok couch potato.
I rode in the rail car when I was 5 years old with my family while vacationing from Kansas. That was 64 years ago and still have pictures of the event. I don't remember it much but I can say I have done the incline the easy way. I have lived in CO the last 45 years and never knew that the incline was converted to a hiking trail until I came across this video. How awesome is this!
I'm envious! I've always wondered what Colorado was like 50 years ago. Probably so much cooler and better than today!
Go do it!
Have you done it yet? 😊
Nice to see Prison Mike has found some direction in his life.
Hahaha
When you’re done climbing you eat gruel sandwiches.
"The worst thing about the incline isn't the incline, it's the dementers! They fly around and suck the soul out of your body, and it hoyt!".
Prison Mike
@@dannyjacobs6734 “you would be the belle of the ball”
“Cause you’ve got a good life… you’ve got a good life… a good life”
-Prison Mike
I hiked the incline when I visited Manitou Springs. I think about it all the time. It is an amazing experience.
I got a hand made ring from Manitou Springs that I wear every day. I love that city and want to move there one day
I watched this video when it came out 2 years ago. Last week I travelled 4,500 miles. Today I hiked the incline.
Now that's rad! Congrats. 🙌🏻 You got us interested, where did you travel? How did the incline climb go?
@@SalomonTV From Glasgow, Scotland. It was pretty snowy and the altitude got to me if I'm honest. Still it was wonderful to make the pilgrimage
Keep it fun i think trying to meet a ridiculous amount of trips up the incline is a form up compulsive behavior that is not exactly practical not mentally beneficial if it overtakes your life
i am british . this has to be the most perfect place to live . the mountain ranges are awesome . true 4 season climate . colorado springs right on your doorstep . what a life .
It is nice. But the cost to live here is absurd.
I'm jealous that it's there and now in New England ,where I live. However, we have the Mt. Washington road race every year and it's 7.5 miles up the mountain. Almost every step is uphill. It's a killer. The record holder for the Manitou Incline, Joel Gray, has won our race multiple times. He's a beast!
Awesome. I was at the Olympic Training Center in CO Springs for a few years (2006-2008), and the Incline was a major bragging rights test. It was a great equalizer between sports. From cyclists, to triathletes, to speed-skaters, all the athletes were always trying to best each others' times up it. These were the "private property" years, so the trail was definitely "unimproved". It's crazy to see the crowds in this video! Kudos to the volunteers who have made the incline what it now is.
@Rich Rishel Yea it's heavily trafficked now, but look at the bright side people are getting off the couches and doing intense exercise. It's not like say some hidden gems that get spoiled where people flood it just to take pics and litter everywhere. People there going to workout.
I was on the judo team from 2013-15 we used to do it all the time. Miss the Otc and the springs.
this is similar to the Koko Crater hike on the island of Oahu. The trail is a remnant of a funicular track built during WW2. The length is 1.4 miles. The view is spectacular
I have done both this is harder cause of elevation that’s it . Also there manitou has an easier walk around path down .
@@jondoc7525 wished they could improve the path at koko crater. If they improve it, im sure many will go there and try to hike it
@@raffypasalo There is a non-profit org. Kokonut Koaliton that is dedicated to protecting & preserving the Koko Crater stairs. This past year, community members/volunteers along with the City and County of Honolulu made emergency repairs. Enjoyed by many and a great workout too! Aloha
I was going to say that. So hard but so worth it !
When I was little, Koko Crater was sort of "the local mountain" and I remembered some rumor there was a railroad track up it but little-kid me could not figure out how that would work, then before I got old enough to go check it out, we moved to the North Shore.
My best friend moved to Manitou. Manitou is a very unique place and she would tell me it's so unique and there's so many crazos around there because of the magnetic energy coming off the mountains there 😄 I'll never forget walking down that main Street in Manitou and seeing a sign in a restaurant that said "Help Wanted-please somebody somewhat normal"😜🤣
I love how supportive the running community feels. You support each other, and even if it hurts when they beat your time you still cheer them on to go faster.
They’re somewhat supportive but also deathly competitive and arrogant. I lived there and I stayed out of the running and climbing groups, they’re crazy and fight all the time 😂
Such a beautiful, inspiring, life-affirming video. Physical tests of endurance can really come to feel like pilgrimages of sort - and the home people seem to find, it just affirms how places and people seem to radiate a sort of energy about themselves. I would love to give this a go someday. Thank you for having made this, and many warm hellos to the wonderful community showcased here!
Mt Beacon in New York had a trolley that was operated until 1978. It was the steepest trolley incline in the world at one point. It rose to a 1540 ft with a maximum gradient of 74% and an average gradient of 65%. They have been looking to revitalize the trolley but I think a project like this would be a lot more economical and probably better used.
Nothing should be built on that mountain, it will never last, there's a reason local tribes never settled on it and used it for ceremony, considering it sacred. Casino and hotel burned to the ground. Why can't you just appreciate the view and space itself? Yuppies ruin everything
Just returned from Colorado Springs helping my nephew and his girlfriend move from NJ. Two days ago he casually said, "Let's do the Incline this afternoon." I told him I was in although I had no idea what I was in for. It was one of the greatest travel/fitness/family experiences I've ever had, and I can't wait to go back and experience the Incline again! Your video not only captures the essence and spirit of this magical place, it helps our friends and family visualize its beauty and delightful pain. Thank you!
I use to run the incline with my xc teammates back in the early 2000's! Back then parking was free and you'd maybe see 3 or 4 people on the way up. It's great to see such a healthy activity gaining popularity!
Awesome memories from the Incline, thanks for sharing! 🙌🏻
What school did you go to?
@@alexbodnar3822 Air Academy!
@@beejo9485 Oh, I live kinda close to air academy but I go to St. Mary's.
I used to live in the Springs around that time too. The remake of the incline looks great, and a lot safer. I was able to do it a couple years ago when I went back there on vacation. The old school incline was a death trap, but it was a great place to be back then. Like so many places around the area that were gems for hiking, now they’re covered in tourist and people. That’s a good thing though, at least people are exercising. The Punch Bowls was the best hike in the Springs, but now you need to book that hike months in advance.
So grateful to say that I finally climbed the Incline this summer!
What I like off this video is that you didnt focus on the Stian attemp, you focus on the local enviroment of the Incline and that's really cool!
Great video Salomon :)
Thanks Turky, glad you liked the angle we went for on this story :) We thought this community and the Inclined deserved to be the main heros of this film.
Every city in US needs something like this, especially these days. We all have bodies, we all feel better when we meet a challenge, despite our differences. Meet your neighbors, get fit, identify with your community.
Imagine if NYC required these new billionaire skyscrapers to put in a climbing stair with open views all the way up, and allow the public to use it as their “incline” ?
Sounds like you would like living in manitou or near mt fuji. :) your preferences doesnt mean theres a need for everyone else.
wheelchairs...
I love this idea!
Uh huh
The idea is certainly great, but keep in mind that we do not, in fact, "all feel better when we meet a challenge". Some people feel very little or nothing at all when meeting a challenge.
Out of state flat lander, been to Colorado 9 times in last 4 years, every time I do incline at least once, been in 90 degree heat, snow, rain, must humbling mile (technically less) you'll ever do and wonderful community and people. Can't recommend enough. Btw met and ran down with the guy who takes his bird up nearly every day :)
So happy you got all the real incliners Roger, Greg, Steve!!! you missed me that day...lol
hahaha! Sorry we've missed you but glad you enjoyed it!
Tried twice and couldn’t find parking.
I did not hear a mention of Matt Carpenter or did I miss it?
Wow, that looks fantastic! I'd like to try that Manitou Incline at some time in my life and I have the perfect place to train for it. I live in a small village in the north of England and we have here a Victorian-built staircase made up of 220 stone steps running up the side of a reservoir. Each step is slightly larger than those you'd find on a typical flight of stairs in any normal building. Pretty much unique in the whole of Britain and virtually unknown outside the area - and I reckon it'll stay that way. It is the "personal" workout space for me and many local people here. When the virus panic is well and truly over, I think I'll be heading to Colorado!
Don't wait - life's too short. Book your trip now!
"This is where I'm home...🥺" ..so true. You love where you come from, because that is a huge part of you; that is, somehow, you.... Mountain, fatigue, people, nature...can definitely help to ease the pain, to find peace..
I'd seen awesome photos of the Incline from Rob Lucas for several years before I actually got to do it. In 2016, I planned a two week vacation that would end with the family crossing the Grand Canyon, so our first stop was Manitou Springs. We did the Incline and the Pikes Peak Railway to get acclimated to the effort and altitude (we live in VA around 300' above sea level). Then hiking/sightseeing in Moab (Arches, Canyonlands), Bryce, Zion, and finally the Grand Canyon. We started at the North Rim, camped at Cottonwood, Bright Angel, then hiked up the South Rim. The Manitou Incline was crucial in getting the family ready for that final climb up the South Rim. This trip was the best family vacation we've ever had and I have great memories. My youngest was three at the time, so lucky for me he doesn't remember much, so I'll get to take him back. I wish I lived closer, I'd love to have access to the Incline.
There's a more formal set of stairs at a location in Japan's Kumamoto Prefecture, covering 3,333 steps over 2.1k. Some people do that one several times per day. An NHK doc about it is posted on YTube.
Kokohead Trail in Hawaii is very similar to this. Also, the Hawaii Haiku Stairs aka Stairway to Heaven but there's no running up or down that one.
I was priveleged to spend 4 years in CO Springs. It was an amazing place: fit people, great weather, everyone outside all the time...and Manitou/the Incline was a big part of what made it amazing.
I hiked the incline a few weeks ago and it was the hardest hike I’ve ever done. It wasn’t too physically hard on my muscles (at least not anything worse than other hikes) but my lungs felt like they were going to explode (I live at sea level normally). I thought I was going to either pass out or vomit once I got to the top 😂. Glad I did it at least once but I don’t think I would ever do it again haha.
My wife and I climbed it a week ago. We live in Louisiana t sea level and it had our lungs on fire.
I’m heading there this week, I’m from Florida. I’m worried if I can do it, between the elevation and I’m not in the best shape. But I’m going to try🤷🏻♂️
@@jeremyking3986 How did it go?
@@logicandlaughs so the day I had scheduled to go it was going to rain, so I headed south to black canyon of the gunnison and Mesa verde instead. But I found Colorado to be beautiful and can’t wait to get back, and eventually do the incline.
@@jeremyking3986 Dang! Sorry to hear about the rain... hope you get to make it back there soon! I've only been to CO in the winter and it's a goal of mine to make it there sometime during the summer.
This is a really beautiful story about a community coming together and friendships being made. I was in Manitou springs this summer and we were not able to do the climb because there was actually a fire going on the hill that same day. But I will be back to do my first ever run on it one of these days.
I first rode the incline in 1972 and did a little of the trail at the top. The joke that the operator told us was, "If the cable snaps, there are two springs at the bottom to stop us... Manitou Springs and Colorado Springs!" I came back with my family when my kids were in high school and was broken hearted that the incline had shut down. Didn't realize you could walk it. My hats off to those who do it every day!
Human beings are amazing and wonderful creatures. What joy and exuberance! Love it!
Seems really similar to the Grouse Grind in Vancouver BC, awesome.
Grouse Grind is much harder IMO😅
Looks like every climb we did in Marine corps training, literally every week we would RUN UP SLOPES LIKE THIS. Sgt Major hill, Mount mofo for two.
I can only imagine a once a day climb up that trail would put you in TREMENDOUS shape. Now finished watching most of the videos. These guys are nutz.
Depends on what kind of shape you're referring to. In the end it's just cardio. You can go to the gym and do a stair climber and get the same exercise. For cardio this is a good workout (vascular system) but for being muscular it's might be too much cardio. Great for runners, and sprinters.
@@cbot375 If you go up fast without stopping your quads will be burning!
@@cbot375 You can mimic 7000 foot plus elevation in a gym? Where?
The Senior Citizens climbing this is truly inspirational
Obviously I’m late to the party, but I love living here and that Colorado Springs fitness culture made it onto a channel. It’s super awesome and I love it here.
I bet some of those people have extraordinary cardiovascular systems. Talk about good hearts and lungs, let alone the physical strength in the legs, really the total body.
Beautiful video! Now, how about the Grouse Grind in North Vancouver, BC?!
Sounds like a cool place too!
All these guys look to weigh about a buck 40. My 230lb butt would be a struggle…
looks like fun and the community is brought together by it very cool.
I plan on going there to make the walk.
And the Barr trail to descend it is one of the most scenic trails I have experienced.
The views are 😍
I run PPM each year. The day before we run to Barr Camp to get out Tee Shirts and drink filtered water from the creek. Always a great experience. The day after the marathon we do the Incline - it’s a must - the “cherry on top” though is an ice cream sundae at Matt Carpenter ice cream shop 😁🏃♂️🏃♂️
Saw a man wearing a kilt while carrying a revolver on his hip doing the incline one time.....
haha!
I’ve done this a lot when I lived there and just recently visited there. Of course I had to do it and it is even better now than back in 2009. Improvements to the incline are top notch. I honestly can’t wait to get back there and do it again. It’s like he said it’s a calling and something you can’t pass up.
Awesome to hear! Have fun again soon on the Incline :)
I'm wondering how those aiming for records on Inclined are dealing with the weather conditions. Afterall it's 2000ft elevation gain and they're high at the bottom already. What about the winter storms, etc?
I wonder how many heart attacks it has been responsible for.
r m smith LOL, Agreed
It’s a good question, but don’t you wonder how many heart attacks have been prevented from the incline???
Just enjoy the trail.. why over do it? Do it once do it 2000 times. You are both equal to me!
Havent done the Manitou but i have done the Grouse Grind in Vancouver BC. 1.8mi long, 2800 elevation gain. Exhausting and awesome.
Epic climb. Best in the world. Although it's closed during the winter cause of snow. Killer workout.😅
This is the epitome of "if you build it he will come."
Living in CO for more than 20 years now, made me teary when they got emotional about it. There are certain things about this state that really bring joy and happiness, happy for them and anyone that does that or sees the mountains.
Springs here.... You said it. West of I-25 is always calling me.
The world is filled with good. Why do we ever get sucked into feeding so much bad with likes and views? Let’s all try harder to break this pattern. Start with liking this. Know that there will always be those 76 people who will dislike. They must be miserable. Pity them and praise the others. We have a little place nearby that has a lot of stairs. Nothing Like this but it has that same effect on people. More towns need a place like this. Thank you for this channel and thank you for this video.
You guys/gals are BEASTS. We have a similar community in Phoenix for Camelback. 1.15 mile trail, very steep, tons of regulars. We just love it. Lots of similarities with your Manitou incline. We're always pushing each other but nobody is putting up the types of numbers you guys are doing. Keep up the great work.
Made me think of Adam’s Peak (Sri Lanka) which really is a pilgrimage of +5500 steps all the way up a mountain. On top is a temple. I think you go almost 1km up. Did it in 2017, was pure hell. But now I’m want to try this one, looks fun!
Haha! Awesome Florent, well done! 🙌🏻
Possibly the most intense rails-to-trails conversion I've ever seen.. and one of the most successful, oddly. Wow, great documentary!
4:49 "If you live in Manitou, it stairs at you... every day."
Do one on the gemmi pass in switzerland (leukerbad)!
@foxy tango Trails are for young urban professionals? Weird.
But hey, clearly the best way for the masses to enjoy nature is to go off the trails, scare the shit out of wild life, trample the terrain, and create nightmares for park officials (among many others).
Anyways... cool story bro.
You want to live a long time. Walk up that slowly once or twice a week
I have lived in the Springs for 25 years and used to work on the summit of Pikes Peak and I do the Incline at once or twice a week, it's a killer every time but it's addicting! Love the atmosphere of Manitou and the surrounding mountains. It will always be my home and happy place.
For those wanting the details about The Incline:
The base is at 6,500 ft (2,000 m) above sea level and gains 2,011 feet (613 m) of elevation in 0.88 miles (1.42 km).
Nice tribute to a local/global landmark. Every time I do it, I meet great people from all over who just want to challenge themselves.
Wish they had mentioned Joe Gray's amazing FKT.
Glad you enjoyed it, Shawn!
61 minutes at a little less than maximum effort in November 2019. Will go back and go faster.
Made me so proud to live in CO Springs. Great job capturing how the people in this community are. Outdoor loving, simple and friendly.
Thanks Kyle, glad you liked this story! You have quite an amazing playground to explore :)
You are all hipsters that would freeze to death the first night out. Colorado is has zero people that ACTUALLY go outside. This video is a perfect example of city folks taking a walk outside in the sun then talking about how "outdoors" they are. Notice you wont ever hear actual country folks talk about how much time they spend outside. Stop by REI and grab some ultra light summer day pack junk then stop by starbucks before driving the subie outback to a trail that loops directly back to the parking lot. Yeah real extream
@@lucebruno644 you ok??
@@lucebruno644I hope you don’t live here. We have enough assholes I’m Colorado. We can do with one less. Take your country ass elsewhere if you are here.
The old joke the conductor used to say was
"Don't worry, if the cable on this car breaks, There's 2 large Springs to catch us at the bottom...
Manitou Springs & Colorado Springs!" As a tiny kid riding with Grandparents in summer we used to laugh every time!
Love my Manitou~
Awesome job Salomon. I’ve yet to find a video of yours I haven’t got teary at watching
Thank you, means a lot :)
ABS9 hours driveUTELY THE BEST AND WORST WORKOUT I HAVE EVER DONE> I wish we had some stuff like this closer that a
The Incline is a 24 carat, cast iron pig - and I love it. Great video, and captures the essence of the place, with perhaps the caveat it is harder than comes across.
Glad you enjoyed it, Matt :)
3 minutes into this video I thought, “That might be fun”. Then 8 minutes later, after seeing how ridiculously obsessed people have become with this thing, I thought, “Never, ever will I be a part of a cult like that”
Agreed. Way too many people for my comfort zone. I'm itching to go do another 14000 footer tho.
These guys are so crazy for doing this so many times a day and in a year wow!! Im so excited tho can’t wait to do this only once in a month from now when I visit Colorado haha
Awesome Lee! Have fun on the Inclined :)
There is now 21 people in the 500 club with 8 more who are currently in attempt to be part of the club. 4 in the 1000 club. 27 who successfully completed the Inclineathon. It’s gotten more popular.
Highly recommend the Manitou Incline. Thanks for the reminder and great vid Salomon. Need to do the incline again soon.
You should! Stoked you liked it, Jason!
You have the Incline. We have 1000 steps in Vic, Aus The incline looks much more dramatic and steep!! Amazing.
Once more a great video capturing all the elements of the local community and much more... congrats to the whole team! Being quite far away from these spectacular places, your work brings them into our houses...🙏
So good to hear Agamemnon! Stoked we manage to inspire you through these episodes. 🙏🏻
In my backyard... love this video and loved the COG way oh how I miss this COG.
This is an awesome culture.
It was cool before it was overwhelmed with people, adding to Manitou traffic, expensive parking, vehicles getting broke into and generally not worth going at all. Advice... go a mile down the road and start hiking up the mountain. #commercialoutdoorsisnotoutdoors
I've done that thing three times over the years but nowadays I just go up maybe three quarters of the way and take a trail down. It gets harder as you go up
Awesome that you got to climb it and still go there! Such a special place!
@@SalomonTV It is! About every year I go there and see an old friend in Colorado springs
2.53 there were hundreds & thousands of people going up there a day ?????........not some place I would want to be anywhere near....
Come to Switzerland and run the Niesen Treppenlauf👌
This is awesome. Thanks UA-cam algorithm for showing me this video, now I'm looking at flights to get there asap.
It's on my list! These days my favorite big hill is the Snow Creek trail in Yosemite, which gains 2600 feet in under 2 miles. If I lived anywhere near The Incline, I expect I'd be climbing it as often as possible.
Id like to see some testing on vo2 max on some of these folks. And leg strength compared to people who do not Exercise and in there different age groups. That looks like a very tough workout, and a beautiful place. Congratulations to the guy who has the record of times in a year. Thats flat out grit and determination.
I've done the Manitou Incline several times as one of the "trespassers" (it has obviously been improved since my time). It's definitely something everyone should have on their bucket list!
Similar to the Grouse Grind in Vancouver. Guess I am heading to Manitou now. Anybody got a place to stay?
I love the incline. So cool to see a piece on something so dear to my heart. Very cool!!
Awesome to hear you enjoyed the film as a local :)
Ah, are there statistics that outline how many have seriously injured themselves doing this climb, and have there been any deaths? Hearing the talk about this being a religious experience fills me with sadness for those who feel the need to punish themselves and reminds me of reports from long in the past about certain adherents within the Catholic Church who would ascend the stone stairways of certain "sacred" sites on bruised and bloodied knees. That was referred to as self-flagellation and in my view entirely the same as going up this Manitou Incline. I know I will be severely reprimanded by some readers for poking at their sacred cow but I would expect nothing less from a community of Liberal nutters.