Why You SHOULDN'T Use Electronic Drums Live | The eDrum Workshop
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- There's legtimate reasons that you might prefer to stick with your acoustic kit for gigs. Today I'm exploring what those reasons might be and who might not benefit from the advantages we discussed in last week's counterpart video (found here - • Why You SHOULD Use Ele... )
Want to learn more tips for using eDrums on stage?
Optimising your eDrums for gigs - • Optimize Your Electron...
Common eDrum problems SOLVED (Optimise part 2) - • Issues When Using Elec...
Why you SHOULD buy a flagship module - • Why You SHOULD BUY a F...
Why you SHOULDN'T buy a flagship module - • FLAGSHIP MODULE HORROR...
I have been playing Drums for many years and have a top end Acoustic Kit, I have suffered the disadvantageous side of that just as you described in the previous Video. However, some time ago when the Roland TD-25KV became available, I decided to try E-kits. From that point I have been hooked, and started using them in Musical Theatre, mainly because of the range of sounds available. I have developed my E-kit to a Five Tom set up [to match my Acoustic set-up], and also run two BT-1 Bar Triggers. This was all enabled by adding a TM-2 to my kit. I also made my own shells to improve the stage presence and I run two Roland PM-200 Monitor Amps. These two wedges are powerful enough to do small Gigs without further amplification, but the Theatre Sound Guys were chuffed when I introduced the E-Kit, as you have said all they needed was the Left and Right Line outs signals - Job Done! I also have one or two other points which you might like to see which enhance the set-up of an E-kit.
The title should be "Why you MIGHT CHOOSE not to play eDrums," not "why you shouldn't..." But, as I said in my Facebook post, you raise some interesting points. At first, I thought it was just a clickbait title, but it was a better video than I expected. I'll give you a thumbs up for that.
I won't deny that the title is a little more hard-line than the content! Thanks for giving it the time of day, I did a counterpart video last week about why people should use them live. I plan to do a few for and against videos, hope you check them out too down the line! Cheers!
Electronic drums are far better than acoustic. Volume is more manageable, a variety of exotic sounds. Eq is much more manageable. With a touch of a button there are several drum kits that will mimic the sound of whatever music is played. The one thing I will concede is the real feel of electronic as opposed to acoustic. But the mesh heads are getting much better. We have used both kits and chose to us electronic for all the reasons stated above. Naturally it's all up to the drummer and the band...
Electric drums are garbage
The portability and lower stage sound is a winner. I wish I could get my band to switch to e-drums.
I agree with a lot of your points. 1- with an ekit I absolutely do bring more gear including a 15 inch powered pa speaker to use as a monitor. 2- your edrum sounds will never exceed the speakers being used to play them through. If the pa is crap there is no way around your drums will sound like crap. 3- I haven’t had anything break on a gig yet per se but I do feel the need to carry some back up gear. My biggest concern is getting my hi hat to trigger smoothly and I do bring acoustic hi hats in case... 4- it’s really easy to create new problems using edrums live. I went this direction to help reduce stage volume and enhance overall volume control. If you bring your stage volume down too much without a quality monitor strategy, your band will suffer. In a word, it’s like hurdling cats... they need your drums present in the stage mix in order to stay together... if they can’t hear and to some degree feel the drums, they will wander aimlessly and the overall show will suffer greatly. All that being said. I am getting to a point where I prefer using an ekit. I feel like I can create better sounds to support the music with my edrums. We are a cover band featuring 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s but with a large concentration of about 1976 to about 1992...
Thanks for watching! Yeah, I have a very similar situation going with my band, I feel you! Most of us are on in-ears now but the bassist isn't yet so we still need onstage monitoring. We've had gigs in the past where we've run into similar issues regarding volume, no one can hear what they need to properly and it all suffers for it!
I love using my eDrums live but I definitely think there's a bit more to consider than you imagine there to be at first!
Regarding the onstage volume, IEM's etc and quest for ever reduced stage volumes.
Part of the live performance and end product is the combination of sound from the PA AND whats coming offstage. It all contributes to the live shows sound and what actually makes it "live".
A band, say, all using IEM's amp emulators etc and a virtually silent stage becomes a very one-dimensional sound from out front with nothing but whats coming from the PA
In essence, it sounds like a home stereo turned up loud.........
Personally, i dont need to pay for that!!
Just me!
@@tassuperkart I see what you're saying! I think the exact venue and stage set up plays a large part in how much the stage volume matters, possibly less important on the largest of stages where there's a disconnect from the audience, but I think for most shows you're probably right there!
Played hybrid e kits in a wedding band for over a decade. I used real cymbals. Never had a catastrophic failure with Roland modules or triggers in that time. I used a converted Sonor kit and left the reso heads on with mesh on the batter sides with the thought that if I absolutely had to I could convert the kit over to acoustic in about 15 minutes. I had drum mics, batter heads and a snare stored in the band trailer. Only had to do it once when we played outside on a rainy day and I was concerned about the module and triggers getting wet.
Great video and discussion in the comments. Thanks. I'm bringing my edrums kit out for a first time in a fortnight and am considering getting an active 15" pa speaker. The venue is small though, but with an open air gig lining up later, this sounds like a better investment right now.
Thanks for watching! Hope that works out well for you!
Always have spare jack leads - I found them to be one of the first points of failure and a poor contact into the pad can cause mistriggers and false triggers. Monitoring is soooo important. Without good monitoring the band just can't play together.
For me, personally, there were a few big issues that made me switch back to an acoustic kit for live work:
1. Sympathetic resonance.
That is, the guitar amps would often generate frequencies that would be picked up by the e-drum shells which would begin to resonate and transmit vibrations through the head to the piezo. This would cause all sorts of little fluttery false triggers, like very fast ghost notes. The only real way to counteract this was raise the X-Talk and Pad Sensitivity thresholds, but in the worst case scenarios this would reduce the dynamic range so much that it was impossible to play anything other than at a mono-volume. It totally killed the expressive playing feel. Which leads me to the second point...
2. Lack of Expressive Feel.
Even the best e-kit just feels totally lacking at times. It makes no difference to the sound if you switch to brushes, or nylon tips. I know you can mess around switching kits, but if you're doing this mid-song it's more of a faff than it needs to be. I suppose you could set up kit changes onto a MIDI footpedal to shift patches up and down, but you just can't get that true brush feel from a mesh head on an e-kit. It just seems to lack nuance. And don't talk to me about cymbals... (nice segue)
3. Cymbals.
However good your module, your software or your playing, your e-cymbals sound shit live. They just do. There's no life, no character, they're dull and quite static sounding. You can multi-sample them to the Nth degree with however many mics you want, but unless you cover the playing surface with an infinite array of piezos that also somehow know what type of stick/brush/beater/mallet you're hitting it with and also what part of the stick/beater/mallet et al you've used to hit it (shoulder, tip, YOUR HAND, whatever) it's always going to make exactly the same sound. Every. Single. Time.
So yeah, everyone's mileage will vary, but to me they were the biggest bones of contention and they were all utterly resolved by simply switching back to an acoustic kit. I kept the same layout (4 piece) and used the same drum hardware to hold them which made switching between the e's and a's very simple if I needed to. The only difference was a couple of extra cymbals for live work with the acoustics, but these just clamped to the existing hardware so not a major issue. What I ended up carrying extra in cymbals I made up for by no bringing modules, power supply strips, jack leads, spare hihat pedals etc. Eventually I just stopped gigging with the e-kit, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't in the future if a band situation arose that needed a specifically electronic sound (although I'd still use acoustic cymbals with it). For that kind of work they're so much easier to use than messing around with triggers on an acoustic, but for most live work now I'd always go to the acoustic kit.
One other thing I'd add is try to work on that 'live room sound'. I had numerous complaints that my kit sometimes sounded out of place with the rest of the instruments, because the reverbs sounded wrong for the kind of room we were playing in. This 'issue' can be overcome by making sure all your drum kits are totally dry, sending multiple outs and allowing the sound engineer to add any 'verbs and whatever might be needed to sit the kit in the mix. Most modules come loaded with kits that sound huge and great in headphones in the shop - it helps to sell them. But when you're playing with a local band in a crap little back-room venue somewhere and the rest of the band have quite a flat sound, but your kit has huge hall reverbs going on it just sounds daft. So it's always better to strip it back to basics so that it sounds right with everything else regardless of room character.
Other than that... I still love my e-kit and wouldn't get rid of it. And great vids by the way. :)
All very good points! I know what you mean about false triggers, the main way to get around that is having a much lower stage volume, but it's far from foolproof. Some rooms just send all that sound back at you and there's little you can do! Fortunately I've never had to up the threshold so much that it's ruined my playing experience but I imagine it could depending on other settings and your play style.
Your final point about dry sounds is right on the money, too. My next couple of videos are about how to optimise your e-kit for live use, hope you check it out as it sounds like you'll be nodding along for some bits 😅
I'll defo check them out. One cure I did find for sympathetic resonance was to use shell-less pads, because a lot of the issue was caused by wooden shells doing what they're designed to do - resonating. I managed to pick up a good selection of old Clavia Ddrum 4SE pads and they're a good solid chunk of cast alloy that doesn't transmit anywhere near as much vibration into the head. That, coupled with the side mounted pickup means they're not susceptible to small movements in the head, particularly at the centre spot. You also have zero 'hot spots' with them which is a bonus.
I was mainly playing jazz/blues so little nuances and big dynamic range was hugely important. Some other genres would probably not be as noticeably impacted I guess.
Ahh, that's a good solution! I think I've managed to get lucky with my shells but I can see how it would be a problem with certain materials. My Roland digital snare can do it a bit on some stages though, depending on where the bassist is.
Oh absolutely, if you were only playing rock and pop without many ghost notes, you could get away with pushing the threshold up a bit to dial them out. If you need that full dynamic range, you can't really risk losing the lowest velocities just to kill mistriggers.
I love my acoustic drum set over my roland td 27 but i think having both is great, i can mix electronic drums along with my acoustic as well for any gig and it's a great set to practice on
Great points in both videos for and against. I have run into a lot of the situations you’ve mentioned. It’s all part of the learning process with edrums. For me, it really does come down to the type of gig. I have a full size conversion kit so I carry a lot of e gear around, and I can switch them back to acoustic if I need. Some places there’s just not enough space. But at the same time sometimes acoustic drums just don’t work in a room. And yes, just as many things can go wrong with an acoustic kit as can with electric. Just be prepared which ever you choose👍😎
100%, preparation is king! And yeah, that learning curve exists and it can take some perseverance to make it work properly but definitely worth it for those gigs you just couldn't do with your acoustics.
Thanks for watching and for the feedback, really appreciated!
Interesting channel! I love acoustic kit... Used to say that nothing will feel the same, but they are getting there...Everything is easier with easier with Edrums. I have a td07 and td03. 15pcs and double kick, Digital and analog inputs. If anything breaks and you are good patch any pad to what you want fast. Or if you got rim settings it will be a straight plan B. Better than a cymbal broken sound or a rim cracking. Alot of connections still need mics and connection and modules to deal with
Hey, awesome points! I was just wondering if you have any suggestion on how to set up an E-Drum for live performance? Do I need a DAW, or can I just use a VST (like EZ Drummer)? I have a Nitro Mesh, and I have an Alesis 12 amp.
What did you get?
The main problem I've had using an e-kit on stage is that, even with monitors, bandmates have missed cues and come in at wrong times. I'm sure that could be easily handled with a dedicated sound engineer and better monitors, but we don't always have those. The e-kit is much easier to set up and tear down and it's nice to tailor my sounds to different styles of music. Another advantage of e-kits is that, for a singing drummer, you do not have drum/cymbal bleed into the microphone. Sound engineers seem to like that aspect of e-kits.
Nice.! It would be nice to see you playing some of your stuff live on eDrums.
Something that I find really really funny is that Toontrack use (or used) to make like super big parties on the metal Month, inviting HUGE bands like Meshuggah, etc. None of them dared to play not even a song with an electronic kit.
Thanks! I definitely need to get some good live videos, currently I've got one promo video on an old setup and then the rest have come out really badly. Stay tuned, I'm working on it!
I would play acoustic drums too if I was on huge stages with roadies a drum tech and pro sound engineer.
I had a module die in a show. But... always have a spare. Honestly ... every band I played in preferred the e drum vs acoustic.
Ouch, that's rough! Good job you had your spare then! I've fortunately never been in that situation.
I will say this much - Yes you’re correct about bringing More Backups stuff on an Ekit JUST IN CASE something goes wrong!
THERE IS DEFINITELY MORE FEAR FACTOR WHEN I DRUM LIVE With my Ekit - That I NEVER HAD FEAR WHEN PLAYING ACOUSTIC this is 100% SPOT ON 👍
This is why my Acoustic Conversion to Full Electric ⚡️ I’ve built it in such a way ANYTHING AT ALL FAILS - I can fix it within 30-Seconds!!!..
ALL my Toms , Floor Toms I use a place on Top Pearl Tru Trac Heads- So if anyone of them stop 🛑 Triggering or starts to do weird shit like double triggering NO PROBLEM-
I bring back up Tru Trac Heads just in case!
For each Sized Tom, Floor Tom!
Also I use Two Roland KT-10 Kick Pedals Behind Each Double Bass Pearl Acoustic Kick!
So if one of those Pedals goes out NO PROBLEM within seconds I can throw down another KT-10 Kick Pedal and Bam 💥 up and running within 30-seconds or less!
I bring 2-Extra Roland KT-10 Kick Pedals just as back ups just in case!
My Snare I use a Roland PDX PAD that is Velcro on top of my Acoustic Pearl Snare!
If something happens to this - NO PROBLEM I have 4-Extra Pads I could place on Within SECONDS!
My Hi-Hat And Control Pedal I also bring an extra one ☝️ just in case!
Now my Cymbals I’m not too worried about at all because I have 5-Crashes a Ride and a China - If One goes out or stops working No problem I just will stop hitting THAT ONE ☝️ and continue to hit thee others!
Due to a lot of what is said IN THIS VIDEO- This is EXACTLY WHY
I WILL NEVER GO WITH INTERNAL TRIGGERS
NO WAY!!!!!!!
If they go out YOUR SHOW JUST STOPPED!
I will NOT go or use a Side Trigger either because if they go out guess what?
It takes a bit of time to setup the trigger settings Etc when placing another one on!
All My ENTIRE KIT I BUILT IT EXACTLY FOR IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG IT CAN BE FIXED WITHIN 30 seconds!!
Slap on another Tru Trac Head Plug it in Bam done ✅
Slap down another KT-10 Kick Pedal Bam 💥 Plug in Done ✅
Etc Etc...
I’ve Been Gigin Live Shows with Electric ⚡️ for so long now I KNEW EXACTLY HOW TO BUILD MY ACOUSTIC CONVERSION to be completely maintenance free!
Now if something goes wrong with my actual Module-
Well this is thee ONLY THING that would kinda screw things up - I could still Play But would have to Plug my Kit into my other Modules and could still finish the Show!
I already have my kit plugged into a
Strike Module
Roland Td17 Module
Roland TD15 MODULE
and a Simmons 2000 Module
At ALL TIMES!
So I guess if one of them went Haywire still NO PROBLEM I always have ALL MODULES PLUGGED IN AT ALL TIMES 👍
I really need to purchase a Back Up Strike Module I guess just in case -
That's some immense preparation man, fair play to you! I don't have the space (or budget 😅) for that level of spares but I make sure that the spares I do bring are the ones that count!
There's a bit more to consider with eDrums for sure, but I'm certain that you agree that it's worth it for the right person!
My first gig with e kit had the sound check sound awesome but at the gig the sound person pushed all the sound to the main speakers and couldn't hear jack on stage .... one of my scariest moments on a stage 😳
Oh dear 😣 That doesn't sound fun!
I’ve never seen a live band using an e-kit that has bettered an acoustic kit.
A band just doesn’t have any punch with e-drums.
I use a hybrid acoustic kit with a mic’d snare and cymbals - it sound incredible….
Bring 1 powered PA speaker and you sound bigger than any acoustic kit. It's 1000 times better than acoustic since you bring in a pre-assembled kit, then the speaker. No cymbal bags or hardware
Several times people have asked me what would happen if the power went on while in the middle of a show... Once I was asked this by the guitar player of all people. Rather than answering, I asked him what he would do if the power went out. No amp - no guitar. He turned a little red and didn't bring it up again.
Great vid as always. Some very important points for people looking to start gigging with ekits. Thanks for posting.
Thanks Tim, much appreciated! The more info that's out there the better, I say!
Nice video man, I do often think about what if the module goes down!! But it sounds great through the PA. this is the TD50 KV Roland kit, $8299.00 Free Shipping.. LOL
ua-cam.com/video/gMiGIkFa-dg/v-deo.html
The thing that scares me is using module/laptop/interface. Too many things to go wrong. That's one reason I'm going with a module with your sounds. :). As far as the PA sound, it's a lot easier to get an ekit you have dialed in than trusting a soundman or just the fact it's a lot easier for speakers to reproduce edrums than acoustic. A bad PA will also slaughter an acoustic kit.
You deffinately SHOULD use edrums live. 😊
E drums are expensive.
Besides the drums you need
> Two 12" powered monitors right & left of the kit
> A mixer that can accommodate each direct outs of e module
> A direct box (radial 8 for example) + dual - optional
> Cords - never skimp on cords. NEVER!!!!
> Cases for all your gear
Note: QSC or Turbosound
speakers work. Set
properly, they give
band members a
good experience.
Not cheap. But necessary and because it is an e kit , this is very portable.
Your foot print on stage is the same as a 4 or 5 piece kit. Unless you get a Sound Craft Ui 24r mixer. 😊
I hope to convince my new Beatles band to let me use my e-kit. Sadly, the expectation to see a "Ringo" kit is a major hurdle.
This is one time when you really need to consider the look. If you can outfit a Ringo kit with Triggers, great. Between Ringo's BOP kit, the Hofner and Rickenbackers The Beatles are definitely a visual band.
Nothing is stopping you from doing an acoustic conversion on a kit that looks just like Ringo's.
if the power goes out time for a drum solo
Still trying to get hi hat settings right
Using TD 30
It can be difficult to dial them in just right! Hope you're getting somewhere with it!
1000 watt monitor for the drums.
Hhmm..? This is really silly.. I’ve been Doing Gigs Live Shows with my Acoustic Kits since 1986
And now with Electric ⚡️ since 2017! And if I could I would go back in time and Gig with my Ekit!! The Electric Kits Sound sooo much BETTER LIVE than Acoustic PERIOD!! Obviously I mean in a Bar / Or Club even an outdoor event they BLOW AWAY MIC 🎤 D UP ACOUSTIC!!! The Toms all sound Insanely Badass Huge And Thunderous And Kicks, Snare Etc.. I play 80s Heavy Metal 🤘 with my Band and TRUST ME ELECTRIC MAKES IT SOUND SOOOO MUCH BETTER!!!!
I've also gigged for a good few years on my eDrums, Peter. I love them, I think they're great. But there's always going to be some reasons that some people might not want to, and I feel that those reasons should be considered if people are unsure if it will work for them. I did a video last week entitled "Should You Use Your eDrums Live? (YES!)", why not check it out and see if that falls more in line with your viewpoint :)
Agreed here. No question.
Additionally, you get a "sound" EVERY night.
Once the level balance across the kit has been "built" into the module, there is no need for multiple channels out front and tedious mixing.
I only use a stereo main out now (V's 6 outs in the beginning) and rarely use more than 3 kits.
This sometimes leaves the soundie a bit cold (if they are particularly old school) but overall, it simplifies the whole mixing process for them and ive not had any outright negative comments from them at the end of a gig.
Stage "presence" can certainly be a problem and some musos are still surprisingly resistant/downright hostile to the whole E-kit concept.
One memorable axe comment I had was, "I cant get into the groove of things" all the while playing a Strat, flat out on the bridge pickup, distortion pedal cranked through a Vox AC-30 cranked to 10 and standing almost on top of it and everyone in the room with bleeding ears.... Needless to say I didnt get that gig and perfectly happy about it.
If the drums are fed quietly into the monitors to create enough stage volume, the problem goes away. Its a surprisingly low level of drums in the monitors to do the job.
It surprises me that many E-kit drummers feel the need to have a throne-thumper tho.
There isnt a kick drum in the world that provides much more than a barely audible "thud" from the kick drum above the usual stage cacophony.
All I ever asked for in a drum monitor was kick and toms.
I submit that accoustic drummers would get far more benefit from one!
My biggest gripe is the actual appearance of almost all pure E-drums. Those dinky little circa 8" pads, black rubber/plastic "cymbals" and that laughably stupid looking kick "drum" setups leave me very cold.
Ive been gigging since the late '60's and if only I could have had the sound and versatility of my E-kit back then and right up until I changed over in the more recent past.
"Reliable sound engineer at the booth" yep that's the key for acoustic drums. It's not you the drummer. It's all about the sound man.
Raw, unprocessed acoustic drums, no matter how expensive they are, sounds like SHIT to the general audience in a typical venue.
If you don't have a good sound man.. your nice Acoustic Drum will make the whole band sound like CRAP SHIT. No ticket sales, no money, no fame, no nothing. PERIOD.
Thank you! One of my classic points, plus the lack of a stage volume battle.
eDrums avoid sharing garbage backline venue kits. It's small and you pop it down and bang
Pfff god if this is your argument ... guitar electric DJ electric microphone electric base electric keyboard electric .... same chame for everyone... so everyone play acustic right??? Nop
Thanks for watching! My argument isn't to say "don't play them because they're electronic" though, it's more giving some reasons why people might not want to. I have another video that is all about why you should definitely use electronic drums for gigs (because I do and I love it!), you can watch it here - ua-cam.com/video/XXHPdxZEnAs/v-deo.html
Have a great day!
100th!
Wahoo!