What Makes a Character BROKEN? (Honkai: Star Rail)
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- Опубліковано 21 жов 2024
- A discussion about supports in Honkai: Star Rail and some thoughts about how lesser used units may be used again in the future.
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#hsr #honkaistarrail
perfect timing i was just looking for a video while eating
The highest honor for a youtube video
yo me too
At this point i see HSR turning into similar to FGO, where your supports are more important then your DPS.
This is already the Case since 1.0. Tingyun is a 1.0 Character and she was one of the Strongest Harmony char and still to this Day especially at E6 she still fits in almost every Team and makes it Stronger. Not even mention Bronya. If you ask 30 People which Char they choose on the 300 Pull free 5 Star most of them will say Bronya. I know Couple of People who even choose Bronya Eidolons over a new 5 Star Standart Character.
As a player of both, I couldn't agree more. Supports are the enabler, they set the ceiling of every DPS. Also, they're the indicative whether the upcoming characters/servants will be meta or not. Just get Castoria for Arts and Robin for FUA/Dual DPS.
i have pulled for every harmony so far(except ruan mei because i only started during yunli banner) now i have bronya, sparkle and robin and only missing ruan mei for all harmonies
it's already like this since the start. Shit DPS can be elevated with good support. Good DPS can't do shit without good support. Support is much more important than DPS. Dan Heng *4 version can be broken in damage if you run him with Sparkle Robin but Acheron will do crappy damage if you don't run her with her intended support like Jiaoqiu, Pela, and others
@@DantoriusD True, but Tingyun is a bit more of a universal character. She fits a bit more into the Hyper carry playstyle then the other, but you don't really NEED Tingyun to build a good hypercarry team, and she's just flat out uselesss in a Super Break Firefly team. What i mean is the supports that completely enable a playstyle. So someone like Sparkle or Bronya for the Hypercarry DHIL/Jingliu team, Kafka for the DoT Team, Robin for the fexiao team... I mean... have you TRIED using Firefly without either Ruan Mei or HTB on their team? it's fucking miserable. At least HTB is free, but trying to get a break without the buffs Ruan Mei gives feels slow as shit.
My main problem with the META supports in HSR besides what was said in the video is that they are not just the best option, they are the *ONLY* option since you have zero alternatives that fulfill the same role which sucks if you don't have or don't want them.
In Genshin for example even if you don't have the broken supports you almost always have an alternative that fulfills the same role even if weaker.
- Don't have Zhongli? Use Layla or Thoma or Kirara
- Don't have Raiden? Use Fischel or Kuki
- Don't have Nahida? Use Collei or Dendro MC
- Don't have Baizhu? Use Yao Yao
- Etc...
However in HSR if you don't have for example Ruam Mei or Robin you are screwed since there is no other character that can do their job even if less effectively.
I hope that in the future they release more 4 Stars that fulfill the role of 5 Stars which reduces the need to have all the META supports (like they did with Moze who is an alternative to Topaz in Feixiao Teams), unfortunately with how rare it is for them to release new 4 Stars I doubt we will have another case like Moze any time soon
Even though you may be right about that the META suports being very very strong they are not the only option. Yes they are the best one (Ruan Mei,Robin Sparkle) but Bronia,Asta,Hanya,Tingyun are also very good options if u dont have the limited ones. Just for example , you have acheron but no other limited 5* , you can run Pela,Gallagher and Guinaifen. Same for Feixiao you can run Hunt M7 , Moze, and what sustainer you have , like you have options , but still compared to a BIS team with full META suports you can see the differance.But let's be honest for a new player that started like last patch i can understand that they may be overwhelmed bcs they didnt had time to think what units they should pull or didnt had enough pulls .But in total Ruan Mei had 2 runs, same for Robin , same for Sparkle . Like by now , if u where interested in meta at least you should have one of them(if you are an older player ofc).
But this is a gatcha game, you need to know how to spend your pulls if u are f2p , if u wanna pull for meta or not , at the end of the day play for fun, is a game.
And tbf i dont think you should compare genshin roaster with hsr roaster bcs genshin is like 4 y old hsr is 1y and half soo... just let them cook.
Actually funny enough moze is better as a replacement for topaz in ratio teams than feixiao, hunt M7 is a better replacement for topaz in feixiao teams at least in my experience. I doubt we're getting 4 star mei or Robin unfortunately.
@@TheOldN07tbh, idk why but yeah:
This is a gacha game, and you do have to pull wisely, but theirs also certain things similar in HSR and GI:
The 5 star system is practically the same here as it is there:
*their made to be more universal than 4 stars.*
But what I think people forget, is that the 4 stars, are fucking busted:
Gallagher, pela, Tingyun, guineifen, and now, Moze and March hunt. (Excluding TB since duh.)
Their all very busted 4 stars, with Tingyun being the only current Eng regen harmony, guineifen being a busted DOT, and pela, Moze and March being good buffers/ side damagers.
Just because you don’t have the “premium” option, doesn’t mean any of the current ones still apply, and while I didn’t mean toon other good 4 stars, like asta, Hana, or QQ, theirs many good F2P options, and that’s not even including standard banner, and how they basically give you Bronya for free :/
Like, it’s all up to you, and what u want to pull for, and if you don’t get it, we have many good options already, so why not build them???
My QQ, who I’ve had since 1.0, somehow hasn’t been powercrept, since it’s practically a placebo right now:
She, currently, does more damage than my e0s1 Acheron on ult, who also does 700k on ult…
Build who you want, but don’t complain about their being “not enough options.” Since really, theirs so many, and if u truely want a 5 star harmony support, u just go for it :/
i hate how broken some characters are, bcs i always feel bad abt skipping them even though i dont care for their playstyle or character. for someone who prefers playing men, hsr fucking sucks for me. all men in this game (except aventurine) have been powercrept by a woman. the only actual non mc harmony male is sunday. and jiaoqiu kinda (hes practically a harmony with dot)
@@heilamwether8911 The 4 stars are not busted. Gallagher, Pela, Tingyun, and Hunt 7th are kind of the exceptions to the rule. They are incredible 4 stars, and there’s a few other good 4 stars like Xueyi, Luka, Gui, and Asta, but Xueyi and Luka are incredibly hard to use, if not outright worthless against foes who aren’t weak to them, and Guinaifen is almost completely outshined by the aforementioned Pela, because her DOT really isn’t that good and she has the worst DOT out of the 4* nihility characters, so you really use her for the vuln that takes a long time to build up. For the most part the rest of the 4* roster at this point is mediocre at best besides HERta.
All of the dpses can easily clear with premium supports but are still pretty bad and lack any significant meat in their kite. Hanya’s sp generation is great but her buffs pale in comparison to the 5*’s, Yukong requires immense speed tuning to make use of her buffs or the use of Moze. Lynx is decent but outside of a aoe cleanse on ult which isn’t too reliable because it’s legit just on her ult, the only thing she provides is taunt value for Yunli and Clara.
Of course you can still clear while using the now mediocre budget options, but doing so requires an obscene level of investment that most players who need to use budget options most likely are not going to have and that 5* of the same role will not even remotely require.
Robin is too cracked, Im happy because I love her, but the only way to make another support attractive is to make them better which would be insane
Robin's 50% DMG boost applying only to FuA damage would only make things worse. Units like Feixiao and Topaz wouldn't even notice a difference as almost everything in their kit is a FuA, on the other hand characters that don't have a single FuA in their kit but still use Robin regardless would lose out on a 50% DMG bonus just like they're currently missing out on that 25% CRIT DMG from her A4.
The problem isn't that supports are too universal, the problem is that there are characters that require something different from everyone else in their kit and they're not getting it. A character like Firefly may be overpowered but she wouldn't even be functional without the release of HMC and superbreak a patch prior. Almost every character released in the past 6 months has been either a FuA unit or a break units and that's the reason why those 2 archetypes currently dominate the meta. Every other character has been stuck trying to make do with units like Robin that weren't designed for them and if they couldn't even do that because Robin's buffs were only applicable to FuAs they'd be in an even worse state than they are now.
Then you have someone like Jiaoqiu who's obviously made to be a dedicated support for Acheron; in theory, he's nowhere near as strong or universal of a support as Robin is, but in Acheron's case specifically he gives her everything her kit demands, elevating her performance while giving you a reason to choose him over the Harmony supports that released before him. The reason he's not that popular though is that outside of Acheron teams he's not that good and usually gets outperformed by other supports, and the reason why Acheron is still doing just fine in this break/FuA meta despite having neither of these things in her kit and other characters that are in the same boat aren't is that she got Jiaoqiu and other units got literally nothing and thus they're struggling.
Yeah, making a dedicated DoT support would definitely help bring them back into the meta; it also probably wouldn't sell very well because such a support would be good for only Kafka & Black Swan and literally no one else. So unless Hoyo decides it's suddenly DoT meta time and releases half a dozen DoT units at once like they did with break and FuA we're probably not getting a dedicated DoT support. Now they could easily do that if they wanted to. Or not. It all just depends on which side of the bed they woke up on that day.
Jiaoqiu may not be best in slot, but he could be a decent ratio support if you don't have aventurine.
@@thekakavashachronicles Yeah because Ratio is the only other DPS besides Acheron that needs debuffs to work.
He's also a decent support for Argenti in PF
Day 1000 of waiting for a HP draining support...
I wonder if one of the evil villains from one of the Penacony trailers (before... Y'know) will have that kinda special element, could be that white dress lady we saw that might have it, who knows, only time will tell 👀
@@YOGAMALLAMA yesss the annihilation gang. I just hope we get to see them again at least
Stay strong Blade believers
@@kumalanimbus6995 im trying my best ✊😔
It's all Bronya's fault, and to a lesser extent, the mechanics of Star Rail.
To not go on a massive tangent, Bronya was just simply way overtuned for her abilities, which is the first thing that led us to the limited Harmony characters being so "all-purpose". Bronya has action advance, cleanse, and huge damage bonuses. These new Harmony characters have to be, in many cases, better than Bronya or there will be one less incentive to roll for a new character you have to accumulate resources, materials, and gear for. The second thing is with only four characters at most on a field, and all of them sharing the same main resource in skill points, unless you get into whale territory, you're not going to deviate much from the "Damage Dealer+Support+Support/Secondary Damage+Sustainer. Role compression when having such limited slots is very important and Harmony units are usually going to be the only type of their kind in a team comp.
Also, to answer your question about more relic sets, i'd only like specialized sets if you have the option to manipulate substats in a reasonable timeframe. Not that one a month thing Genshin has and even then you have to still deal with the other two substats. There's just way too many useless stats in the substat selection, and they change constantly depending on who you're building.
Agree. Harmony just able to do too much
While I do think that 5* supports are way broken and often irreplaceable, I also think that 4* supports should be viewed as supplementing, not competing with, 5* supports. I actually think Hoyo is moving towards the "niche but excels in said niche" with 4* DPS, not with 4* supports. Look at Herta, Xueyi, Hunt March, and Moze. Even Misha has a fantastic matchup against MoC Aventurine, and Sushang's kit is perfectly tailored for the Break and frequent attacks meta. Heck, Hook and Guinaifen have found new life being run alongside Jiaoqiu due to being able to abuse his 100% uptime Burns.
And as for the 4* supports not covered in the video:
Asta, for instance, works great as the 4th slot in a Firefly + HMC + Ruan Mei team, provided your Firefly is E1+. She has amazing Fire Toughness damage, and the SPD and ATK boost is big enough for Firefly to get an extra turn in Combustion with. (Also, Asta's ATK buff DOES boost Firefly's Break Effect, while Robin's doesn't.)
Hanya actually does have a small niche over Sparkle in Feixiao teams, since the fact that all her Skills are attacks helps Feixiao generate stacks faster. Her SPD boost also helps Feixiao go zoom, and can allow Fei to run ATK boots paired with a hyperspeed Bronya for a Robin-less core. (sub-optimal, but still good!)
Yukong has very interesting tech with Moze where his ability to disappear allows Yukong to have full uptime on her Skill. This was actually used in a 4* only E0 S0 Feixiao 0 cycle against Aventurine (support #4 was Pela because of course she was.) Also, it's worth nothing that a Yukong's max buffs are stronger than Sparkle's max buffs, even if Yukong's is limited by poor uptime.
I know that these are limited use cases, and I agree that 4* supports are definitely downgrades to their 5* counterparts, but they are definitely not unusable if you can find the right teams for them, and can even be optimal second slots. For the craziest example, the best hypercarry Robin team uses Tingyun, Pela, and Bronya, and no, none of those slots are replacable unless you have E6 Jiaoqiu or something.
Those are all good points! I do have to say that while I don't consider those units unusable(you can use any unit wherever you want as long as you don't care about how optimal it is), the main concern i have is that a lot of the use cases for those "4th slot" units are cases that exist pretty much strictly in MoC. The average player isn't really going to run around without a sustain, and even the non average player most likely isn't going to be able to clear something like Apoc Shadow w/o a sustain either.
@@fl2ur Yeah, this AS is actually a pleasant exception since Phantyllia flowers provide healing upon death. But sustainless runs are generally unviable for the average player for sure, outside of Break teams which delay the enemy enough to make sustain less of an issue
this is why we haven’t gotten any Dot or HP niche harmony characters, they truly need to find out a way to make the support benefit not just one niche to maximize profits they are a business after all but while doing this they hurt the niche, look at JQ Dot man sure he isn’t a dot unit unless E2 but having that in his kit instead of something else hurts his niche for Acheron even if not a lot.
Yeah they want to make the supports so overtuned to give a reason for them to increase the hp of the mobs, making you want to pull them to make things easier
i hate that this is how powercreep works. if you dont get the newest strongest characters, your team will have to work way harder in the game that, before, you could do well
Pretty much
Tbh i think the first problem was RM, she simply had too many things in her kit on a base level, like stop to think on how overbloated her kit is : Movespeed, crazy high teamwide damage boost, Res pen on a low cost ult, SP positive, Tanky so you dont have to worry about her dying, break efficiency ( i straight up blame the increase of all enemies break-bar after 1.6 on her ), self energy and high personal damage and that's not mentioning her own LC who in itself is also overloaded with even more teamwide damage and more SP. Sparkle all things considered is probably the most balanced 5star Harmony as she is really good at her hypercarry and skill point hungry DPS niche. Robin is probably the biggest mistake to date though, she just does way too much to the point where she's a must have on every single team( imagine being so broken that you're BiS for Blade : a HP scaling DPS as a attack buffing support ) and even replacing Sparkle in what was supposed to be her specialty. and i believe they realized their mistake which is why JQ came out "underwhelming", he is by no means a weak support, its just Robin and Ruan Mei are so broken there's no reason to slot him in except for Acheron.
I honestly have no clue how they can approach this from here on out, they made a massive blunder with Ruan Mei first but it was still fixable but now with Robin in the picture i don't know how they're gonna be able to make a good support that won't just be broken altogether from here on out unless they start making them extremely specialized like Topaz
remember when people said robin wasn't that good and that you can just run asta with dance dance dance to get the same effect?
i think general buffers that are strong / OP is actually better for the player, even if its "worse" for game balance. get ruan mei and robin and pick up bronya from the standard banner, and you can now pull on any character in the game and clear content with them, instead of having to pick up not only a new DPS, but a their dedicated support and sustain that fills their niche. Making every support super niche would just incentivize more spending, because you essentially would HAVE to get the dps and the support, or have half a character.
sparkle is a paragon of how harmonies should be designed. she provides buffs but a specific type of buff: providing skill points. she also provides action forward and crit damage boosts but that's not what you use sparkle for, but for the skill point battery allowing many skill point hungry units like qingque or DHIL to shine. but due to how she's designed, she isn't an all purpose harmony, limiting her to SP hungry units.
meanwhile we have the absurdly, all purpose supports like robin and ruan mei who can fit in whatever team you feel like using and it'll just work due to how overtuned and overloaded their kits are.
really well made video, hope your channel does well
Harmony characters are the one that breaks everything, especially the ones that can control AV. They also have access to the best lightcone in the game Dance3x. You can pull for E1S1 Robin and clear everything without any other limited character, or even an actual dps. Then the best 4 star is Tingyun, or anyone that can manipulate AV, so in the end, AV manipulation is the problem.
Having more general buffs gives more variety to team building I don't want to have to always use Robin in followup team I like using her with Acheron or Jingliu even though the results are lesser than using her with followup oriented team. Having to keep pulling support for every little niche in the game because none of the characters have good general buffs you can use in multiple types of teams would be annoying and expensive to get. Being universal means you can settle for alternatives and still have a good team which wouldn't happen if everything was really specific and niche.
I mean the game is still somewhat in its early stage(its only been 1 year) so having universal support helps ppl establish their accounts
Now that Ruan Mei,Robin,Sparkle and Bronya is out that basically covers every situation,the game can now properly introduce niche support like how Harmony MC is for only and exactly break or Jiaoqiu is for Acheron. And with the upcoming leaks about Sunday and Tingyun,Hoyo seems to be very on with supports fulfilling a niche instead of being universal
And while it will took a while to cycle out the universal supports for niche ones,but they will always be part of the game due to universal-ness is essential for any account to established its grounds to then branch into niches
i think universal buffers make more sense. As an ftp, I can't pull for the newest characters all the time, because other than 2.6, every patch had 2 limited 5 stars. Getting a character that can be slotted into many teams is very convenient for a player like me. I do have all the premium support characters right now, but i had to skip robin's first banner and got her on her rerun. And to be entirely honest, other than a DOT buffer, i feel like we don't need any more harmony units. Our roaster works more than enough at the moment
4:21 lmao, yeah I recently pulled Robin and then got her e1, and I got my Robin for boothill and Acheron and dan heng, I don’t use her with any follow up unit at all lol
robin and boothill dont really work together. the only think on her kit that he uses is the action advance, and u are better using bronya for that
i think this is why topaz is such a great unit, she only buffs follow and need frequent follow up, she sticks in her niche and accel in it. but she has f2p options like moze and march 7 hunt. i think robin action advance plus concerto procs and follow up dmg bonus is fine but that dmg% bonus universal makes her even more broken. like i get her teamwide advance is what makes her a 0 cycle queen but it fits her kit, maybe they could have allocate her skill potency to her talent which buffs only follow up attacks even more which would balance her out. i own ruan mei and robin so ig they are always a staple
calling topaz a great unit is kinda 😅😅
shes extremely niche and is currently bis in only one team, and she can easily be replaced by a 4 star (not even e6, e2 will do) besides being powercrept even in her own niche, with jiaoqiu and moze being superior on ratio fua team
@@literallyjiaoqiu well i mean like she is balance. she sticks with her niche. I dont reallys ee jiaoqiu as better in ratio team because half of his kit doesnt even work on ratio, he is just like there for debuffs like black swan. but like e2 moze and march does feel like a decent downgrade to topaz, they give a lot of crit but fei xiao and ratio already has a lot of crit buffs themself which more crit has diminishing returns while topaz give dmg bonus. im nto saying moze or march bad, THEY ARE AMAZING but just trying to prove a point
So do you guys think we should have more characters like harmony MC?, where they're completely geared toward one playstyle (break in the case of HMC)
I have a theory, so hear me out:
When Hoyo made DPS units, they knew they would sell. But they became concerned with supports. They attempted to create a game break support with Silver Wolf, and she certainly sold well, but there was a fierce debate about her worth compared to Pela. Meanwhile, sustains did not receive the same level of sales. So they did not make 5* supports (bar Silver Wolf) until near the end of the 1.X cycle, when they knew due to the Harmony theme of the next zone, they were going to do Harmony characters and had to test. So they went full gas on Ruan Mei, and dumped everything on her for good sales. Ruan Mei did very well sales wise. Both Sparkle and Robin do very well. But Hoyo starts to notice they could make Ruan Mei even better, to encourage package purchasing with her Break Efficiency buff, and so build Super Break and Firefly around it. We do not have the sales of Firefly launch day, but the theory is they were ENORMOUS. So they then knew to make Feixiao more in-line with being a Ratio replace to sell with Robin. As they were patting themselves on the back, the community unfortunately took their "Ruan Mei vs Robin" debate FAR too seriously, and realized Robin is basically broken in all teams that isn't specifically Firefly if you can pump the offense enough, resulting in the current meta where Robin is out of control. Unfortunately, while you want more niche supports, the result is Jiaoqiu, aka insiginficant sales. That was even Hoyo attempting to reign in as they realized they went too hard on Robin. Which means they probably won't deliver on niche supports - in fact, if you know, you know.
TL;DR: Hoyo wasn't sure how support sales would go, and so went full gas on them to ensure sales, and then structured mechanics for package deals with their main DPS targets. This is probably in-line with their past experience with Genshin. Supports blew up, and then the community math'd too hard, with both resulting in a tilted meta toward one support and "complete" packages.
While more specialized relic sets sound good on paper, you're forgetting one major issue with that.
Do you *really* want to farm another fully optimized set for someone? Gotta love that substat RNG.
istg it feels like crit doesn't even exist in this game
@Shirker12 I definitely didn't forget(I just spent the last month farming a Duran planar rope for yunli 💀). That said, getting a support set that's *usable* is imo easier than a dps set. 50/100 cr/cd won't take you far on a dps, but a support with 134 speed and leveled talents will
@@fl2ur tbh a support usually need speed and thats all. We already have access to a Relic and Planar Set with 6% spd per Set so ure usually needing only Speed Boots which can be crafted with self modeling Resin even as a full f2p you have access to 2 per Patch. Also supports can often work fine with a full Rainbow Set unlike DPS who really wanna have their specific BIS Sets.
I think building a Decend support is way easier than building a Decent DPS. Of course it will become way harder if you hunt for specific Set and move 1 step ahead and go for a 160 spd support.
I think having more Universal Supports is in the End healthier for the Community than having more strict Supports for only 1 Playstyle. Even i dont play Follow Up i can use Robin in Acheron Teams or in other Hypercarry or even Dot Teams even she didnt fit 100%. Having a support for only 1 specific Playstyle isnt really F2P friendly and pushes people to spend Money which result in more player quitting the Game.
But i do think Hoyo should put out more Support 4* that are easier to obtain than locking busted supports behind 5* Paywalls. Since 1.0 the only 4* Harmony Char was Hanya.
Definitely a reasonable take, I do think there's a middleground hoyo can find, its more a matter of if they want to do so.
@@fl2ur like i said in a other comment. Time will Tell. Genshin had the same Problem back at the End of 2.0 so many Characters were required to build specific Teams. But due to its runtime you have now more Alternatives to choose from. I dont think we will see many more brand new Game mechanics due to its limitations on how battles work. So sooner or later there will be characters that can be replaced OR filled with already existing characters.
Yukong forgotten once again 😢
@@th3docta401 wait she was a 1.0 char wasnt she? 😅
Ok hoyo give us a sp that increase fua by 120% and decreases every other character that doesn't have a fua by 300% this will balance the game definitely
Gawdsake these kind of Videos make the game WORST and infact make a terrific game like HSR worst. what people wants is 1 team, that they can swap in characters in and out.
Not 4-10 specialised teams. or game over. now we have a huge POOL of unused Gacha characters that doesn't make anybody happy if they pull for it. so basically it is the newest meta or nothing. all the 4star hype is nonesense, they are totally useless. cause they make encounters if you don't have those combo you shall not pass or suffer. is the reason they changed tune with characters Like Fei Xiao. but cause she is wind, they can easily kill her off with the next EVENT by making something resist to wind by 90%. same story with any meta.
These kind of video support it, but they need to make profit. yeah they do and will keep making profit. cause of content creator like this. who say look we want to specialise more. Honkay say fine, here is the next META unit for that specialisation.
Damn, still same Profile huh