If you enjoy learning from my videos, then you might also enjoy learning by interacting with me in my virtual academy: www.alexanderarguelles.com/academy/ You can join me next week to follow the Path of the Polyglot; read French, German, or Spanish literature; learn to read Medieval languages; practice spoken Latin at various levels; participate in Great Books seminars; study the comparative history of religion; or get support for guided self-study of languages including Latin, Arabic, and Sanskrit.
This is how I learned 3 foreign languages: I use spaced repetition for vocab every day (like Anki, or memerise; use a source with audio!), then I read (you have to read books in your level, you can read books which you already read to know the story to not get easily bored), and finally use the vocab in conversations (with a language tutor, at least twice a week). The language tutor will help you also with the grammar. That is how I learned French, Italien and now Russian. For me it works. Also try to watch content, podcasts and find artist/music, so you can enjoy listening.
Yes, speaking is crucial at some point. Learning without audio might lead to incorrect pronunciation. Once you've ingrained a wrong pronunciation, it's hard to rectify. However, utilizing the phonetic alphabet can assist in ensuring the correct pronunciation even without listening to it.@@aspenschannel7740
@@Eren-vb8ud I currently use LingQ for Russian. There are plenty of resources. I use the children's book Harry Potter. But I also import and create my own resources out of UA-cam videos. If you get a tutor via iTalki they will have also plenty of resources. I also use them. Enjoy the journey :)
Dr. Arguelles, thank you for the substantive discussion, as always. I've been experimenting with using an Assimil manual as a source for sentence mining so that after following a shadowing procedure to thoroughly learn a lesson, I can use Anki to have sentence cards for each sentence from the lesson with multiple cards for each sentence in a manner like this, using a Spanish manual as an example: (1) English text > Spanish text and audio (2) Spanish text > English text with Spanish audio (3) Spanish audio > English and Spanish text. A lot of folks on Anki Web have already created decks with all of the sentences of Assimil manuals with audio, and this seems like a productive way to not just keep manuals in a kind of orbit/loop while working on your next textbook, but a way to have Anki filter those specific sentences that give you the most trouble. All told, it can be used to have a single, cumulatively growing deck/repertoire of sentences you've studied to review them after you've done the work of Shadowing a lesson and worked to learn it. It's been really manageable so far for keeping a large quantity of sentences on repeat testing your ability to move back and forth between languages with reading and listening. Just a thought about how Anki could fit into a more "balanced diet" of a routine, and keeping your personal study history with the language on repeat at the right intervals. Of course, this is only for review of already learned material, not for learning material outright. As the adage goes, you can't memorize what you don't understand, hence the need to do the hard work of learning before memorizing and using Anki as an "insurance policy" to protect the "souvenir sentences" you've accumulated in your repertoire for the language you're studying.
Thank you for providing these substantive details about how to use Anki in combination with Assimil for those who find that this adds something to their studies that they cannot get from working with the book and recordings alone.
I've been learning Japanese for a lot of years and when I started learning Korean all the kanji that I had learned were really useful to understand Korean vocabulary. So I agree that studying hanja can make Korean vocabulary a lot clearer.
Thank you for confirming the value of this. I don't know why, but there are some in the language learning community who are offended by the suggestion.
@@juliannaruffini And also word building. The 인 sound may be confusing on it's own, it may seem random, but if you know 人 (person) and how it's used in words like 韓国人 (Korean as in "a person from Korea"), the 인 in 한국인 makes a lot more sense. It's not that you're just learning the word 한국인, you can pull it apart and understand how the word is made up. I think this is particularly useful when you start learning a lot of vocabulary.
I've been learning Korean for about a year and a half. I just ordered a Hanja book recently. I'm really looking forward to studying it! When I first started studying Korean I though studying Hanja would be a waste of time. But, I had a tutor break down parts of words and what they mean a few times. The words she explained really stuck in my head. I was a math major in college so breaking down words really helps everything click.
Good for you - your studies should really take off after this. Bruce Grant's book is the standard introduction to Hanja so I assume you got it, but there is also Choo & O'Grady's Handbook of Korean Vocabulary, which gives native Korean roots as well as Hanja. Enjoy the learning process of understanding why words mean what they mean!
Professor, you're the expert, you have the proverbial keys to the Lamborghini, you've walked the walk and can talk the talk, you don't have to worry about letting people down by telling them how you actually went about and did something. If someone is disappointed with your answer that is their own private matter, nothing for you to be concerned about.
Hi, professor Arguelles! I completely agree !! Nothing wrong with sistematic approach(structured approach)- Teach yourself/assimil/linguaphone + graded readers+autentic texts and for more advanced level > classical texts and literature ^_^! Thumbs up👍
Thank you for this concise and updated summary of the approach that you have been promoting for the last 15 or so years on UA-cam! It will be very helpful to recommend this video to folks now! The idea of reading a textbook about the vocabulary of a language is quite a novel idea, I sadly have not read much on particular languages, just general historical linguistics textbooks and language family overviews. Thank you for the idea as well, and all the best for the coming semester in the Academy!
I think the most effective way of learning vocabularies is by using them repeatedly into specific contexts and situations so we can see their meanings, exchanging synonyms and antonyms.
I studied Japanese first and now am studying Chinese. What works for me best are side-by-side readers and having a Chinese phone dictionary for instant searching. Knowing the 漢字 is a massive boon, but ultimately I think constant exposure where you can achieve ‘flow’ is crucial for becoming the language, not just learning it as if it was a body of knowledge. Also working hard to make an internal dialogue in the target language helps with this even when you can’t actually ‘study’. As they say in Japanese, 習うより慣れる。Though this is more a mentality than overall learning method. Next on my plate is finally grappling with Ancient Greek which while challenging is an absolutely beautiful language.
I managed to overcome intermediate plateau with the use of Goldlist method, building 5-7.000 passive vocabulary for reading. SRS flash card systems are not that good in comparison, they shine in short (up to 500 words) memorization projects. Gradual progression with reading material isn't possible for some languages, that's why it may be good to use specific vocabulary-building systems. Scriptorium method was very effective for internalizing grammar structures. Then parallel reading - read a paragraph, use the dictionary, then check the translation. I've found that using your voice while reading books helps with comprehension. No need to say it aloud, just murmuring or moving your lips and "breathing out" words is enough. It helps to separate sentences into logical blocks. I was inspired by medieval reading practices, check studies by Mary Carruthers: "The Book of Memory" and "The Craft of Thought". In fact, similar methods are still used in Tibetan monastic education.
I still say the best way to learn vocabulary , at least early on, is to read children's books. When they become too simple, go to young adult/"tweens" books. Best wishes to you and the absent Merlin.
@@ProfASAr The good thing about children's books is that if you read ones based on common stories (e.g. Snow White), you basically know the story, what's being said, etc. This will help you better than if you get an original story, like Pequeno Juan Va a La Tienda.
@@NowYouknow-k4l I particularly recommend well known children's fairy tales, like Snow White, Cinderella, etc. The reason is that you already know the stories, so when you read them, the new words are in a context that you already understand. This will help you guess the meaning of new words more easily.
@@NowYouknow-k4l Probably any story portrayed by a disney movie. They are easy to access as well. There are also many fairytale podcasts like storynory
I also abhor straight vocabulary lists, and prefer the method of learning vocabulary by acquiring new books that 90% overlap with what vocabulary base I already have. If you learn vocabulary situated in some context, then you subconsciously note this context while learning any given word. You will notice how the target language differs from your expectations, and build this knowledge into your knowledge of the individual word. I think vocabulary lists lead to the bad result of "literal translation" (high interference from your native language), whereas holistic vocabulary learning leads to a feel for the language, and an instinct for which verbal structures to use.
Schopenauer in Über Sprache und Worte: Accordingly in learning a language, the chief difficulty lies in getting to know every concept for which it has a word, even when our own language does not possess a word that corresponds exactly to this, as is often the case. When learning a foreign language we must, therefore, mark out in our minds several entirely new spheres of concepts. Consequently concept-spheres arise where there were previously none; and so we learn not merely words, but gain concepts and ideas. This is especially the case when we learn the ancient languages, since the mode of expression of the ancients is much more different from our own than is that of modern languages from one another. This is shown by the fact that, when we translate into Latin, we must resort to turns of phrase quite different from those possessed by the original. In fact in many cases, the idea to be rendered into Latin has to be entirely remoulded and recast; here it is broken down into its ultimate elements and is again recomposed. The great improvement derived by the mind from learning the ancient languages is due precisely to this process of recasting. Only after we have correctly grasped all the concepts which the language to be learnt expresses through separate individual words; only when we directly call to mind in the case of each word of the language exactly the concept that corresponds thereto and do not first translate the word into a word of our own language and then think of the concept expressed by this word-a concept that never corresponds exactly to the first one, and likewise in respect of whole phrases-only then have we grasped the spirit of the language to be learnt and have made a great step forward in our knowledge of the nation that speaks it. For just as the style of the individual is related to his spirit, so is the language related to the spirit of the nation that speaks it. But a man is a complete master of a language only when he is capable of translating into it not merely books but himself, so that, without suffering a loss of individuality, he is able to convey in it what he wants to say and is then just as agreeable and interesting to foreigners as he is to his own countrymen. Those of limited ability will not readily master a foreign language in the real sense of the term. They learn the foreign words, it is true, but always use them only in the sense of their approximate equivalent in their own tongue, and invariably retain the idoms and phrases peculiar thereto. However, it is the spirit of the foreign language which they are unable to master; and this is really due to the fact that their thinking itself does not take place from their own resources, but is for the most part borrowed from their mother tongue, whose current idioms and phrases are for them equivalent to original ideas. And so even in their own language they always merely make use of hackneyed phrases (phrases banales, abgenutzte Redensarten); and even these are put together with so little skill that we see how imperfectly aware they are of their meaning and how little their whole thinking goes beyond the mere words, so that it is not very much more than parrot chatter. For the opposite reason, originality of idom and individual fitness of every expression used by a man are an infallible symptom of outstanding intellect. From all this it is clear that, with the learning of every foreign language, new concepts are formed to give meaning to new symbols; that concepts are separated which previously combined to form a wider, and thus less definite, concept simply because only one word existed for them; that connections and references, previously not known, are discovered because the foreign language expresses the concept by its own characteristic trope or metaphor; that accordingly by means of the newly acquired language, we become conscious of an immense number of nuances, analogies, variations, differences, and relations of things; and that we thus obtain a more comprehensive view of everything. Now it follows from this that in each language we think differently; that in consequence, through the study of each new language our thinking undergoes a fresh modification, a new shading; and that polyglottism with its many indirect uses is, therefore, a direct means of mental culture, since it corrects and perfects our views through the striking number of the aspects and nuances of concepts. It also increases the skill and quickness of our thinking since through our learning many languages the concept becomes ever more separated from the word.
Thank you Alexander for your wisdom that you share with us. It's hard to add sth. valuable to your speech. I'll try it anyway... :) I'm sure Boris Shenkhtman's small and modest book entitled "How to Improve Your Foreigen Language IMMEDIATELY" could be a revelation for some people...! I am going to experiment with his communication tools which I find more than interesting. See you next time I can't wait to listen to you again Michel
Thank you for your video. I think "learning" vocabulary by means of Anki etc is still a very efficient way to "cement" the vocabulary (and not only vocabulary, but also expressions and anything else) that you have encountered while reading. I honestly only see benefits and think that intensive reading in combination with repeating "vocabulary" by means of Anki or the like is a great way to NOT having to read readers/books for years before you can ready novels with ease.
I've sometimes wondered whether that approach to language learning, focused primarily on vocabulary building, wasn't just a reflection of the kind of languages we are most likely to learn. There's some interesting research on grammatical complexity and the circumstances that are conducive for it to arise. Generally speaking, it seems that smaller, tight-knit communities that live in relative isolation tend to have languages with far more grammatical complexity than those of larger, more diffuse communities. The larger communities though are the ones that develop into larger countries or civilizations, the ones that develop influential cultural traditions that leave a mark on history. And it's those languages that we usually learn. So we'll learn Russian, and to us it may seem grammatically complex. Or we'll look at Finnish and marvel at the amount of grammatical cases. A language like Archi on the other hand goes largely unnoticed. According to Aleksandr Kibrik, a single verb in Archi can inflect into any of about 1.5 million contrasting forms. A degree of grammatical complexity that is orders of magnitude higher than what most of us encounter when learning the "bigger" languages of the world. Since we focus mostly on these "bigger" languages that happen to be relatively simple in grammatical terms, you could see how that approach develops: after all, in these languages there are only a few hundred grammar rules to learn, perhaps in the lower thousands in some cases but no more, but vocabulary on the other hand requires learning tens of thousands of discrete units. So it makes some degree of sense to view vocabulary building as the biggest chunk required to master those languages. We forget that not all languages are like that. In fact most aren't.
Thank you for this substantive comment. About a year ago I posted a video in which I discussed learning/documenting an unscripted language with a man who has been working on such a tongue from Indonesia for going on 40 years and is by no means done. Indeed, there are mind-boggling complexities out there.
Per 10:23, I can certainly endorse the use of Linguaphone courses, which have become somewhat lost amid the myriad language apps of today. It requires some exclusive devotion of time, but does enhance learning via the layout in the workbooks, combined with aural lessons.
Thank you for seconding the motion. For those interested in this, please note that it is the versions of Linguaphone courses from before about 1980 that have this feature; after that, they tend to list the words alphabetically rather than in order of appearance, and in their current incarnation, they have gotten away from this entirely.
A question about the multitextbook approach. Let's say I have Teach Yourself, Colloquial and Assimil for a particular language. Should I do one textbook after another? Or let's say do TY Unit 1 Col Unit 1 Assimil Lessons 1-3 TY Unit 2 Col Unit 2 Assimil Lessons 4-5 and so on? Which of these two very different approaches do you recommend? Thanks in advance :)
Btw...for textbooks like Teach Yourself or Colloquial... In any of those an unit will be around 2h30 or 3 hours of study. How do you suggest to divide each unit then?
Nice video. For readers and primers that contain a glossary, or even a bilingual text for that matter, how many times would it be ideal to read through the same one? If I have a glossed reader for, say, modern Greek, how many times should I read through it before moving on to the next one?
There is no hard and fast answer here. You can review over and over as long as you are still getting something out of it, but you might want to move on before that if there is ample other material to work with.
ATTENTION, I have no time to watch this video but a comment which would be best suggestion for you guys: If you want to learn a language you have to go and learn basic grammar, which will help you to make simple sentences, tenses are most important, then go and find the school syllabus books FOR THAT PARTICULAR LANGUAGE TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS (class 1 to onwards,) read the first class book, try to understand and get the vocabulary and practise you will definitely learn a language, IT IS A NATURAL METHOD.....!
My target language (cebuano) has very few books for readings... but it does have a reliable bible translation and a ton of wikipedia articles. If I use these resources as input will I end up sounding like king james? I really don't want to sound like king james 💀 There are textbooks though, thanks for the advice. I will be buying a Cebuano textbook. It will support the creators of the textbook too which will strengthen the language in turn. Cebuano is constantly dominated by English and Tagalog.
You say that “vocabulary in Germanic (...) languages comes from Latin”. To what extent? I know it’s a very large one for English, but I’m wondering about German, for example: aside from borrowings from different periods (comprising Romance languages), would you include “Lehnbildungen” in this? I learned about this concept from the title of a book I’m considering looking for: Werner Betz, “Deutsch und Lateinisch: die Lehnbildungen der althochdeutschen Benediktinerregel” (2nd ed. 1965). If you know about this book, would you say it’s still useful? Are you aware of any more recent ones about the topic?
Grammar is a map. You can have a simple map of Paris which fits in your pocket, or a huge one which covers an entire wall. You may need simple grammar to function daily or complex one to navigate in the finer points of the language.
I can't give an exact % of Latin vocabulary in the various Germanic languages - it is lower than in English for all of them, that is for sure, but still high enough that knowing Latin would be of assistance versus not knowing it if coming from another language background.
Regarding intensive or other reading strategies, I was wondering what you thought about reading with a translation of the passage in question. I tried this a few different ways in order of least to most effective (just based on my intuition): 3. Reading the source passage and then the translation without going back to the source 2. Reading the translation first, then the source passage. 1. Reading the source passage first, then the translation, then the source again. When going through large amounts of material, this works to a large extent and is a bit faster than intensive reading, where one might look up every single word. However, I wonder whether intensive reading, where one looks up each word (and maybe writing it down) is more effective. I largely became fluent in Buddhist Chinese through intensive reading and also translating every sentence-which requires that I have a grasp of the syntax and grammar. I can pick up most Chinese Buddhist sutras and read them without a dictionary now.
Intensive reading is as tried and proven a technique as they come. There is no question but that it works very well in the long haul. I don't know whether it is ultimately more effective than working with bilingual texts - both methods work if one applies them assiduously. For reading with a translation, I concur with your ordering of the relative efficacity of the three approaches.
I always learned languages by extensive reading but I also like to read dictionaries from time to time 😂😂 this is all the more important as the quality of nowadays spoken speech decreases 😢 Something I will try out a new method: read literature in both the original language and the translation in my mother tongue🎉
Although obviously rare, it happens upon occassion that we don't know the meaning of a word in our native langauge when reading, let's say a piece of fiction. Does not knowing that word interrupt our understanding of the text? Should we break the flow or train of thought that reading the text brings us just to 'know' the word? I can only speak of my own experience. I rarely if ever crack open a dictionary and not knowing the word rarely inhibits the overview understanding of the text. So I don't bother. If the word comes up sufficient times from then on, there are two things that can happen. Either I will aquire an understanding or the meaning of the word will emerge through my experience of it in context or, if that never happens I can continue to skip the word or look it up. I am not sure how many words are in my working and passive vocabulary in my native tongue, but I barely if ever (on reflection) used a dictionary when reading in my entire life. I am currently learning spanish. I read texts where I have a working understanding of the language and recognition or substantial amount of (without ever having consciously studied grammar) forms, I practice two forms of reading most of the time: One where I ignore words I don't understand and one where I use google translate (individual words only) to help me when I feel a little frustrated. I mostly practice the former. I can read a story aimed at a 12 year old (meaning it has a full array of language but it is limited in figures of speech and idioms metaphors etc) and I can understand and enjoy the entire story. I am inclined to read by identifying concepts or ideas, by focussing on how a sentence is a made up compositionally or in chunks so that I can imagine how each part of a sentence interacts with another part to produce a global idea made up out of smaller parts. In English it might look something like the following (a simple example) *On monday ..... my wife ..... took the car ..... to be serviced .... as she does ....... twice a year* What I find is that little by little I am acquiring the language, or it is emerging. The key is .... consistent participation or experience of the language. 30 years ago I spoke Italian. Now I remember nothing of it. I live in a spanish speaking country and I teach English and I use these methods and Comprehensible Input as my key tools. It's only my anecdotal experience, but grammar only appeals to those interested in grammar. But it's worth acknowledging that almost everyone on the planet is fluent in one language learnt with no attention to studying grammar so there is no reason why they cannot add a second in the same way. Grammar is likely to accelerate the process but only for those with an interest in grammar. Most of my students don't respond well to that and most the best students in my class of 10 year olds learnt more form watching youtube and playing computer games online. They also tend to be boys, and quite lazy students.
Thank you for your detailed comment and for sharing your experience. You are right about a key being consistent participation, and about the fact that your average / typical learner is not interested in grammar. Indeed, interest in grammar is a distinctive character trait of the atypical learner, i.e., the kind of person who might conceive a desire to become a polyglot.
Thank you very much for this video, I found it very helpful. Vocabulary is a very delicate topic, and the more languages you learn, the trickier it gets to learn the amount of vocabulary you need. What do you do when your target language is not popular and there are not many grammar books available? How would you face learning dialects, for example, which usually are not taught in language schools?
That is hard to answer in the abstract, but obviously you need to be more creative and resourceful when working on a language without many sources. For many of these, there is an audiodrama New Testament that you can extract from, if nothing else.
@@ProfASAr Thank you very much for answering my question! I had indeed used both the New Testament and Quran for languages and dialects, but never heard of this dramatized readings of the bible. Thank you very much again!
Interesting that you should mention reading a bestseller, because I learned Spanish in order to be able to read 100 years of solitude in the original, after having read it in translation. Eventually I was able to achieve my goal! Now I am learning Hebrew, and I don't have a specific book in mind - at least not yet. And I'm wondering if you have specific advice for learning a language that has a different alphabet. I am finding it very difficult, but then I am 82 years old and perhaps not as sharp as I used to be?
Dr. Arguelles, since you brought up the concept of using multiple textbooks when learning a new language, I thought I might as well ask you a clarifying question about this due to the fact that it has come up a few different times in your past videos. In past videos and in writing, you have said that there isn't a hard-and-fast number of introductory textbooks that one would need to go through when first learning a language, only that it will likely involve anywhere from 2 to 6 manuals depending on the language and depending on how well one is feeling about the learning process. (I.e., It's a somewhat organic thing that you learn to feel out once you perceive that you are no longer deriving benefit and that it's time to move on.) I have been thinking about this for a while and wondering what you would think of the following proposal based on FSI's categories for the difficulty of languages for native English speakers: Category 1: 2-3 Manuals Category 2: 3-4 manuals Category 3: 4-5 manuals Category 4: 5-6 manuals Of course, this is a little artificial, but at least for setting expectations and making plans for learning a new language, if I were to see that the language I was interested in belonging to one of those categories, do you think that these kind of estimates would be reasonably reliable?
Those might be rough approximations, but it also all really depends on the quality of the manuals themselves, which is not something that you can quantify like this.
Professor Arguelles, As always, an Interesting and engaging talk. You mentioned the classical languages (i.e. Latin, Arabic, Sanskrit, Chinese) as a basis of acquiring word roots. Would Old Church Slavonic fill that role for the Slavic languages?
Old Church Slavonic is the earliest documented Slavic language and was a literary language for centuries so it did have a strong influence upon other Slavic languages, but it is not a direct ancestor the way Latin and Sanskrit are. So, even though it might provide fewer roots than these two do, it would still certainly be worth beginning there if your goal is to learn the whole Slavic branch.
Thank you so much for this video. I have also found that flashcard apps are fairly useless, and mostly learn languages the way you suggest--by reading multiple textbooks. I'd be curious to hear your views on reading children's books as a way to increase vocabulary. I personally find them quite an enjoyable way to increase my vocabulary as well as assimilate grammatical structures. I find cartoons to be equally useful and when I start learning a language, I usually start by watching Peppa Pig videos on UA-cam since I've been able to find them in almost every language I've ever studied.
For using multiple textbooks, do you prefer working through two at the same time-maybe a session with one in the morning and then the other at night-or do you think it’s better to finish one book thoroughly first?
what do you think about grammar-translation method prof arguelles. Linguist don't endorse it but I think especially for self-learners it is helpful at the start.
evening sir , besides learning a language ., how do i learn or master english literature . after i had finished my BA degree , wish to prepare to MA in english literature ,
Enroll in an intensive immersion program in an English speaking country. Work one-on-one with a trained private tutor for six hours a day, study and do the lessons he gives you for another six hours a day, and spend six more hours interacting with native speakers in informal conversation. If you do this, you will learn as much as possible and perhaps make noticeable progress over the course of a week, but though you can cram a lot in, it takes time for material to take root and grow, and a week is simply not long enough to learn a language.
I got as far as his claim that using a tool to remember vocabulary implies neglect of other language elements like grammar. But that claim is ridiculous. Most language students understand the need to develop speaking, reading, writing, and listening skills together very much including grammar in all of them. So, i conclude that this video is a waste of time.
If you enjoy learning from my videos, then you might also enjoy learning by interacting with me in my virtual academy: www.alexanderarguelles.com/academy/ You can join me next week to follow the Path of the Polyglot; read French, German, or Spanish literature; learn to read Medieval languages; practice spoken Latin at various levels; participate in Great Books seminars; study the comparative history of religion; or get support for guided self-study of languages including Latin, Arabic, and Sanskrit.
See you next year since I'm now a total beginner German learner 🥹 Love your videos btw!
1. learn grammar form many books
2. shadowing
3. reading
4. conversation
5. word roots
Thank you for providing key points for others.
15:47 - "think them into sentences" - what a brilliant way of putting it when it comes to activating your vocab for speaking purposes.
Thank you kindly!
This is how I learned 3 foreign languages: I use spaced repetition for vocab every day (like Anki, or memerise; use a source with audio!), then I read (you have to read books in your level, you can read books which you already read to know the story to not get easily bored), and finally use the vocab in conversations (with a language tutor, at least twice a week). The language tutor will help you also with the grammar. That is how I learned French, Italien and now Russian. For me it works. Also try to watch content, podcasts and find artist/music, so you can enjoy listening.
Thank you for sharing your approach in detail.
I've already made 750 flashcards for anki in my target language. Is source audio very important?
Yes, speaking is crucial at some point. Learning without audio might lead to incorrect pronunciation. Once you've ingrained a wrong pronunciation, it's hard to rectify. However, utilizing the phonetic alphabet can assist in ensuring the correct pronunciation even without listening to it.@@aspenschannel7740
Hello, can you share the sources you use and the books you read for learning russian? this would help me a lot.
@@Eren-vb8ud I currently use LingQ for Russian. There are plenty of resources. I use the children's book Harry Potter. But I also import and create my own resources out of UA-cam videos. If you get a tutor via iTalki they will have also plenty of resources. I also use them. Enjoy the journey :)
Dr. Arguelles, thank you for the substantive discussion, as always. I've been experimenting with using an Assimil manual as a source for sentence mining so that after following a shadowing procedure to thoroughly learn a lesson, I can use Anki to have sentence cards for each sentence from the lesson with multiple cards for each sentence in a manner like this, using a Spanish manual as an example:
(1) English text > Spanish text and audio
(2) Spanish text > English text with Spanish audio
(3) Spanish audio > English and Spanish text.
A lot of folks on Anki Web have already created decks with all of the sentences of Assimil manuals with audio, and this seems like a productive way to not just keep manuals in a kind of orbit/loop while working on your next textbook, but a way to have Anki filter those specific sentences that give you the most trouble.
All told, it can be used to have a single, cumulatively growing deck/repertoire of sentences you've studied to review them after you've done the work of Shadowing a lesson and worked to learn it.
It's been really manageable so far for keeping a large quantity of sentences on repeat testing your ability to move back and forth between languages with reading and listening.
Just a thought about how Anki could fit into a more "balanced diet" of a routine, and keeping your personal study history with the language on repeat at the right intervals. Of course, this is only for review of already learned material, not for learning material outright. As the adage goes, you can't memorize what you don't understand, hence the need to do the hard work of learning before memorizing and using Anki as an "insurance policy" to protect the "souvenir sentences" you've accumulated in your repertoire for the language you're studying.
Thank you for providing these substantive details about how to use Anki in combination with Assimil for those who find that this adds something to their studies that they cannot get from working with the book and recordings alone.
I've been learning Japanese for a lot of years and when I started learning Korean all the kanji that I had learned were really useful to understand Korean vocabulary. So I agree that studying hanja can make Korean vocabulary a lot clearer.
Thank you for confirming the value of this. I don't know why, but there are some in the language learning community who are offended by the suggestion.
what is the relation between kanji and korean words?
@@juliannaruffini the Chinese words they come from.
@@malenalucero6473 ok word similarities.
@@juliannaruffini And also word building. The 인 sound may be confusing on it's own, it may seem random, but if you know 人 (person) and how it's used in words like 韓国人 (Korean as in "a person from Korea"), the 인 in 한국인 makes a lot more sense. It's not that you're just learning the word 한국인, you can pull it apart and understand how the word is made up. I think this is particularly useful when you start learning a lot of vocabulary.
I've been learning Korean for about a year and a half. I just ordered a Hanja book recently. I'm really looking forward to studying it! When I first started studying Korean I though studying Hanja would be a waste of time. But, I had a tutor break down parts of words and what they mean a few times. The words she explained really stuck in my head. I was a math major in college so breaking down words really helps everything click.
Good for you - your studies should really take off after this. Bruce Grant's book is the standard introduction to Hanja so I assume you got it, but there is also Choo & O'Grady's Handbook of Korean Vocabulary, which gives native Korean roots as well as Hanja. Enjoy the learning process of understanding why words mean what they mean!
Professor, you're the expert, you have the proverbial keys to the Lamborghini, you've walked the walk and can talk the talk, you don't have to worry about letting people down by telling them how you actually went about and did something. If someone is disappointed with your answer that is their own private matter, nothing for you to be concerned about.
That is very kind of you - thank you for that perspective.
Hi, professor Arguelles! I completely agree !! Nothing wrong with sistematic approach(structured approach)- Teach yourself/assimil/linguaphone + graded readers+autentic texts and for more advanced level > classical texts and literature ^_^! Thumbs up👍
Thanks for the sound endorsement.
Thank you for this concise and updated summary of the approach that you have been promoting for the last 15 or so years on UA-cam! It will be very helpful to recommend this video to folks now!
The idea of reading a textbook about the vocabulary of a language is quite a novel idea, I sadly have not read much on particular languages, just general historical linguistics textbooks and language family overviews. Thank you for the idea as well, and all the best for the coming semester in the Academy!
Hello Yan, thanks for your substantive comment, as always, and I look forward to having you in the Latin circle again some time soon!
I associate words by visualising them. Combine that with lots of reading and listening.
Visualizing how?
I think the most effective way of learning vocabularies is by using them repeatedly into specific contexts and situations so we can see their meanings, exchanging synonyms and antonyms.
Indeed.
I studied Japanese first and now am studying Chinese. What works for me best are side-by-side readers and having a Chinese phone dictionary for instant searching. Knowing the 漢字 is a massive boon, but ultimately I think constant exposure where you can achieve ‘flow’ is crucial for becoming the language, not just learning it as if it was a body of knowledge. Also working hard to make an internal dialogue in the target language helps with this even when you can’t actually ‘study’. As they say in Japanese, 習うより慣れる。Though this is more a mentality than overall learning method. Next on my plate is finally grappling with Ancient Greek which while challenging is an absolutely beautiful language.
Thank you for sharing your experience and techniques.
I love the _Teach Yourself_ series!
Old, new, or both?
@@ProfASAr I have found that the older entries in general are excellent for delving into detailed and focused grammar work.
I managed to overcome intermediate plateau with the use of Goldlist method, building 5-7.000 passive vocabulary for reading. SRS flash card systems are not that good in comparison, they shine in short (up to 500 words) memorization projects. Gradual progression with reading material isn't possible for some languages, that's why it may be good to use specific vocabulary-building systems. Scriptorium method was very effective for internalizing grammar structures. Then parallel reading - read a paragraph, use the dictionary, then check the translation.
I've found that using your voice while reading books helps with comprehension. No need to say it aloud, just murmuring or moving your lips and "breathing out" words is enough. It helps to separate sentences into logical blocks. I was inspired by medieval reading practices, check studies by Mary Carruthers: "The Book of Memory" and "The Craft of Thought". In fact, similar methods are still used in Tibetan monastic education.
Thank you for the substantive comment. No question that reading with the lips helps - too bad it is stigmatized.
I still say the best way to learn vocabulary , at least early on, is to read children's books. When they become too simple, go to young adult/"tweens" books. Best wishes to you and the absent Merlin.
Thank you for the good suggestion. Merlin was in my lap the whole time, but the camera angle was high.
@@ProfASAr The good thing about children's books is that if you read ones based on common stories (e.g. Snow White), you basically know the story, what's being said, etc. This will help you better than if you get an original story, like Pequeno Juan Va a La Tienda.
Which children's books do you advise please ? (in english)
@@NowYouknow-k4l I particularly recommend well known children's fairy tales, like Snow White, Cinderella, etc. The reason is that you already know the stories, so when you read them, the new words are in a context that you already understand. This will help you guess the meaning of new words more easily.
@@NowYouknow-k4l Probably any story portrayed by a disney movie. They are easy to access as well. There are also many fairytale podcasts like storynory
I also abhor straight vocabulary lists, and prefer the method of learning vocabulary by acquiring new books that 90% overlap with what vocabulary base I already have.
If you learn vocabulary situated in some context, then you subconsciously note this context while learning any given word. You will notice how the target language differs from your expectations, and build this knowledge into your knowledge of the individual word.
I think vocabulary lists lead to the bad result of "literal translation" (high interference from your native language), whereas holistic vocabulary learning leads to a feel for the language, and an instinct for which verbal structures to use.
I agree, that's how we learn our first language.
Thanks for articulating this so well.
Schopenauer in Über Sprache und Worte:
Accordingly in learning a language, the chief difficulty lies in getting to know every concept for which it has a word, even when our own language does not possess a word that corresponds exactly to this, as is often the case. When learning a foreign language we must, therefore, mark out in our minds several entirely new spheres of concepts. Consequently concept-spheres arise where there were previously none; and so we learn not merely words, but gain concepts and ideas. This is especially the case when we learn the ancient languages, since the mode of expression of the ancients is much more different from our own than is that of modern languages from one another. This is shown by the fact that, when we translate into Latin, we must resort to turns of phrase quite different from those possessed by the original. In fact in many cases, the idea to be rendered into Latin has to be entirely remoulded and recast; here it is broken down into its ultimate elements and is again recomposed. The great improvement derived by the mind from learning the ancient languages is due precisely to this process of recasting. Only after we have correctly grasped all the concepts which the language to be learnt expresses through separate individual words; only when we directly call to mind in the case of each word of the language exactly the concept that corresponds thereto and do not first translate the word into a word of our own language and then think of the concept expressed by this word-a concept that never corresponds exactly to the first one, and likewise in respect of whole phrases-only then have we grasped the spirit of the language to be learnt and have made a great step forward in our knowledge of the nation that speaks it. For just as the style of the individual is related to his spirit, so is the language related to the spirit of the nation that speaks it. But a man is a complete master of a language only when he is capable of translating into it not merely books but himself, so that, without suffering a loss of individuality, he is able to convey in it what he wants to say and is then just as agreeable and interesting to foreigners as he is to his own countrymen.
Those of limited ability will not readily master a foreign language in the real sense of the term. They learn the foreign words, it is true, but always use them only in the sense of their approximate equivalent in their own tongue, and invariably retain the idoms and phrases peculiar thereto. However, it is the spirit of the foreign language which they are unable to master; and this is really due to the fact that their thinking itself does not take place from their own resources, but is for the most part borrowed from their mother tongue, whose current idioms and phrases are for them equivalent to original ideas. And so even in their own language they always merely make use of hackneyed phrases (phrases banales, abgenutzte Redensarten); and even these are put together with so little skill that we see how imperfectly aware they are of their meaning and how little their whole thinking goes beyond the mere words, so that it is not very much more than parrot chatter. For the opposite reason, originality of idom and individual fitness of every expression used by a man are an infallible symptom of outstanding intellect.
From all this it is clear that, with the learning of every foreign language, new concepts are formed to give meaning to new symbols; that concepts are separated which previously combined to form a wider, and thus less definite, concept simply because only one word existed for them; that connections and references, previously not known, are discovered because the foreign language expresses the concept by its own characteristic trope or metaphor; that accordingly by means of the newly acquired language, we become conscious of an immense number of nuances, analogies, variations, differences, and relations of things; and that we thus obtain a more comprehensive view of everything. Now it follows from this that in each language we think differently; that in consequence, through the study of each new language our thinking undergoes a fresh modification, a new shading; and that polyglottism with its many indirect uses is, therefore, a direct means of mental culture, since it corrects and perfects our views through the striking number of the aspects and nuances of concepts. It also increases the skill and quickness of our thinking since through our learning many languages the concept becomes ever more separated from the word.
Thank you Alexander for your wisdom that you share with us.
It's hard to add sth. valuable to your speech.
I'll try it anyway... :)
I'm sure Boris Shenkhtman's small and modest book entitled "How to Improve Your Foreigen Language IMMEDIATELY" could be a revelation for some people...!
I am going to experiment with his communication tools which I find more than interesting.
See you next time
I can't wait to listen to you again
Michel
Thank you for the kind words of appreciation, and for pointing others towards Shenkhtman's book.
Thank you for your video. I think "learning" vocabulary by means of Anki etc is still a very efficient way to "cement" the vocabulary (and not only vocabulary, but also expressions and anything else) that you have encountered while reading. I honestly only see benefits and think that intensive reading in combination with repeating "vocabulary" by means of Anki or the like is a great way to NOT having to read readers/books for years before you can ready novels with ease.
Thank you for sharing how you use this program. Certainly some get benefit from it!
Thank you. This is really helpful and informatic
Glad it was helpful!
I've sometimes wondered whether that approach to language learning, focused primarily on vocabulary building, wasn't just a reflection of the kind of languages we are most likely to learn. There's some interesting research on grammatical complexity and the circumstances that are conducive for it to arise. Generally speaking, it seems that smaller, tight-knit communities that live in relative isolation tend to have languages with far more grammatical complexity than those of larger, more diffuse communities. The larger communities though are the ones that develop into larger countries or civilizations, the ones that develop influential cultural traditions that leave a mark on history. And it's those languages that we usually learn. So we'll learn Russian, and to us it may seem grammatically complex. Or we'll look at Finnish and marvel at the amount of grammatical cases. A language like Archi on the other hand goes largely unnoticed. According to Aleksandr Kibrik, a single verb in Archi can inflect into any of about 1.5 million contrasting forms. A degree of grammatical complexity that is orders of magnitude higher than what most of us encounter when learning the "bigger" languages of the world.
Since we focus mostly on these "bigger" languages that happen to be relatively simple in grammatical terms, you could see how that approach develops: after all, in these languages there are only a few hundred grammar rules to learn, perhaps in the lower thousands in some cases but no more, but vocabulary on the other hand requires learning tens of thousands of discrete units. So it makes some degree of sense to view vocabulary building as the biggest chunk required to master those languages. We forget that not all languages are like that. In fact most aren't.
Thank you for this substantive comment. About a year ago I posted a video in which I discussed learning/documenting an unscripted language with a man who has been working on such a tongue from Indonesia for going on 40 years and is by no means done. Indeed, there are mind-boggling complexities out there.
Per 10:23, I can certainly endorse the use of Linguaphone courses, which have become somewhat lost amid the myriad language apps of today. It requires some exclusive devotion of time, but does enhance learning via the layout in the workbooks, combined with aural lessons.
Thank you for seconding the motion. For those interested in this, please note that it is the versions of Linguaphone courses from before about 1980 that have this feature; after that, they tend to list the words alphabetically rather than in order of appearance, and in their current incarnation, they have gotten away from this entirely.
A question about the multitextbook approach. Let's say I have Teach Yourself, Colloquial and Assimil for a particular language.
Should I do one textbook after another? Or let's say do TY Unit 1 Col Unit 1 Assimil Lessons 1-3 TY Unit 2 Col Unit 2 Assimil Lessons 4-5 and so on?
Which of these two very different approaches do you recommend?
Thanks in advance :)
One after another is what I meant.
Btw...for textbooks like Teach Yourself or Colloquial...
In any of those an unit will be around 2h30 or 3 hours of study. How do you suggest to divide each unit then?
Nice video. For readers and primers that contain a glossary, or even a bilingual text for that matter, how many times would it be ideal to read through the same one? If I have a glossed reader for, say, modern Greek, how many times should I read through it before moving on to the next one?
There is no hard and fast answer here. You can review over and over as long as you are still getting something out of it, but you might want to move on before that if there is ample other material to work with.
ATTENTION, I have no time to watch this video but a comment which would be best suggestion for you guys:
If you want to learn a language you have to go and learn basic grammar, which will help you to make simple sentences, tenses are most important, then go and find the school syllabus books FOR THAT PARTICULAR LANGUAGE TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS (class 1 to onwards,) read the first class book, try to understand and get the vocabulary and practise you will definitely learn a language, IT IS A NATURAL METHOD.....!
Please don't comment on videos you haven't watched.
My target language (cebuano) has very few books for readings... but it does have a reliable bible translation and a ton of wikipedia articles. If I use these resources as input will I end up sounding like king james? I really don't want to sound like king james 💀
There are textbooks though, thanks for the advice. I will be buying a Cebuano textbook. It will support the creators of the textbook too which will strengthen the language in turn. Cebuano is constantly dominated by English and Tagalog.
I don't know about this, but doubt the translation is the KJV!
You say that “vocabulary in Germanic (...) languages comes from Latin”. To what extent? I know it’s a very large one for English, but I’m wondering about German, for example: aside from borrowings from different periods (comprising Romance languages), would you include “Lehnbildungen” in this? I learned about this concept from the title of a book I’m considering looking for: Werner Betz, “Deutsch und Lateinisch: die Lehnbildungen der althochdeutschen Benediktinerregel” (2nd ed. 1965). If you know about this book, would you say it’s still useful? Are you aware of any more recent ones about the topic?
I study Deutsch and I can't believe how much Latin it has incorporated. I can say the same about most Slavic languages.
Grammar is a map. You can have a simple map of Paris which fits in your pocket, or a huge one which covers an entire wall. You may need simple grammar to function daily or complex one to navigate in the finer points of the language.
I can't give an exact % of Latin vocabulary in the various Germanic languages - it is lower than in English for all of them, that is for sure, but still high enough that knowing Latin would be of assistance versus not knowing it if coming from another language background.
Regarding intensive or other reading strategies, I was wondering what you thought about reading with a translation of the passage in question. I tried this a few different ways in order of least to most effective (just based on my intuition):
3. Reading the source passage and then the translation without going back to the source
2. Reading the translation first, then the source passage.
1. Reading the source passage first, then the translation, then the source again.
When going through large amounts of material, this works to a large extent and is a bit faster than intensive reading, where one might look up every single word. However, I wonder whether intensive reading, where one looks up each word (and maybe writing it down) is more effective.
I largely became fluent in Buddhist Chinese through intensive reading and also translating every sentence-which requires that I have a grasp of the syntax and grammar. I can pick up most Chinese Buddhist sutras and read them without a dictionary now.
Intensive reading is as tried and proven a technique as they come. There is no question but that it works very well in the long haul. I don't know whether it is ultimately more effective than working with bilingual texts - both methods work if one applies them assiduously. For reading with a translation, I concur with your ordering of the relative efficacity of the three approaches.
Leudi is the same in Russian and old English.
I always learned languages by extensive reading but I also like to read dictionaries from time to time
😂😂 this is all the more important as the quality of nowadays spoken speech decreases 😢
Something I will try out a new method: read literature in both the original language and the translation in my mother tongue🎉
Best of success to you in your studies!
Although obviously rare, it happens upon occassion that we don't know the meaning of a word in our native langauge when reading, let's say a piece of fiction. Does not knowing that word interrupt our understanding of the text? Should we break the flow or train of thought that reading the text brings us just to 'know' the word? I can only speak of my own experience. I rarely if ever crack open a dictionary and not knowing the word rarely inhibits the overview understanding of the text. So I don't bother. If the word comes up sufficient times from then on, there are two things that can happen. Either I will aquire an understanding or the meaning of the word will emerge through my experience of it in context or, if that never happens I can continue to skip the word or look it up. I am not sure how many words are in my working and passive vocabulary in my native tongue, but I barely if ever (on reflection) used a dictionary when reading in my entire life.
I am currently learning spanish. I read texts where I have a working understanding of the language and recognition or substantial amount of (without ever having consciously studied grammar) forms, I practice two forms of reading most of the time: One where I ignore words I don't understand and one where I use google translate (individual words only) to help me when I feel a little frustrated. I mostly practice the former. I can read a story aimed at a 12 year old (meaning it has a full array of language but it is limited in figures of speech and idioms metaphors etc) and I can understand and enjoy the entire story.
I am inclined to read by identifying concepts or ideas, by focussing on how a sentence is a made up compositionally or in chunks so that I can imagine how each part of a sentence interacts with another part to produce a global idea made up out of smaller parts. In English it might look something like the following (a simple example) *On monday ..... my wife ..... took the car ..... to be serviced .... as she does ....... twice a year*
What I find is that little by little I am acquiring the language, or it is emerging. The key is .... consistent participation or experience of the language. 30 years ago I spoke Italian. Now I remember nothing of it. I live in a spanish speaking country and I teach English and I use these methods and Comprehensible Input as my key tools.
It's only my anecdotal experience, but grammar only appeals to those interested in grammar. But it's worth acknowledging that almost everyone on the planet is fluent in one language learnt with no attention to studying grammar so there is no reason why they cannot add a second in the same way. Grammar is likely to accelerate the process but only for those with an interest in grammar. Most of my students don't respond well to that and most the best students in my class of 10 year olds learnt more form watching youtube and playing computer games online. They also tend to be boys, and quite lazy students.
Thank you for your detailed comment and for sharing your experience. You are right about a key being consistent participation, and about the fact that your average / typical learner is not interested in grammar. Indeed, interest in grammar is a distinctive character trait of the atypical learner, i.e., the kind of person who might conceive a desire to become a polyglot.
Thank you very much for this video, I found it very helpful. Vocabulary is a very delicate topic, and the more languages you learn, the trickier it gets to learn the amount of vocabulary you need. What do you do when your target language is not popular and there are not many grammar books available? How would you face learning dialects, for example, which usually are not taught in language schools?
That is hard to answer in the abstract, but obviously you need to be more creative and resourceful when working on a language without many sources. For many of these, there is an audiodrama New Testament that you can extract from, if nothing else.
@@ProfASAr Thank you very much for answering my question! I had indeed used both the New Testament and Quran for languages and dialects, but never heard of this dramatized readings of the bible. Thank you very much again!
Interesting that you should mention reading a bestseller, because I learned Spanish in order to be able to read 100 years of solitude in the original, after having read it in translation. Eventually I was able to achieve my goal! Now I am learning Hebrew, and I don't have a specific book in mind - at least not yet. And I'm wondering if you have specific advice for learning a language that has a different alphabet. I am finding it very difficult, but then I am 82 years old and perhaps not as sharp as I used to be?
Learning a different alphabet is always a hurdle. Just plug away at it.
Dr. Arguelles, since you brought up the concept of using multiple textbooks when learning a new language, I thought I might as well ask you a clarifying question about this due to the fact that it has come up a few different times in your past videos.
In past videos and in writing, you have said that there isn't a hard-and-fast number of introductory textbooks that one would need to go through when first learning a language, only that it will likely involve anywhere from 2 to 6 manuals depending on the language and depending on how well one is feeling about the learning process. (I.e., It's a somewhat organic thing that you learn to feel out once you perceive that you are no longer deriving benefit and that it's time to move on.)
I have been thinking about this for a while and wondering what you would think of the following proposal based on FSI's categories for the difficulty of languages for native English speakers:
Category 1: 2-3 Manuals
Category 2: 3-4 manuals
Category 3: 4-5 manuals
Category 4: 5-6 manuals
Of course, this is a little artificial, but at least for setting expectations and making plans for learning a new language, if I were to see that the language I was interested in belonging to one of those categories, do you think that these kind of estimates would be reasonably reliable?
Those might be rough approximations, but it also all really depends on the quality of the manuals themselves, which is not something that you can quantify like this.
Professor Arguelles,
As always, an Interesting and engaging talk. You mentioned the classical languages (i.e. Latin, Arabic, Sanskrit, Chinese) as a basis of acquiring word roots. Would Old Church Slavonic fill that role for the Slavic languages?
Old Church Slavonic is the earliest documented Slavic language and was a literary language for centuries so it did have a strong influence upon other Slavic languages, but it is not a direct ancestor the way Latin and Sanskrit are. So, even though it might provide fewer roots than these two do, it would still certainly be worth beginning there if your goal is to learn the whole Slavic branch.
@@ProfASAr Thank you. That was verry helpful.
Thank you so much for this video. I have also found that flashcard apps are fairly useless, and mostly learn languages the way you suggest--by reading multiple textbooks. I'd be curious to hear your views on reading children's books as a way to increase vocabulary. I personally find them quite an enjoyable way to increase my vocabulary as well as assimilate grammatical structures. I find cartoons to be equally useful and when I start learning a language, I usually start by watching Peppa Pig videos on UA-cam since I've been able to find them in almost every language I've ever studied.
Children's books are certainly a good way to begin reading following the natural progression into being a mature reader in a new language.
Hello, I am at A1-B1 level. How do I move to B1? I am just getting advice from you on how to improve my level of listening and reading skills
That is too complicated to answer in a single comment. Please watch more of my videos!
For using multiple textbooks, do you prefer working through two at the same time-maybe a session with one in the morning and then the other at night-or do you think it’s better to finish one book thoroughly first?
Finish one book first before adding others in turn.
what do you think about grammar-translation method prof arguelles. Linguist don't endorse it but I think especially for self-learners it is helpful at the start.
It played an integral part in my own learning more often than not.
evening sir , besides learning a language ., how do i learn or master english literature . after i had finished my BA degree , wish to prepare to MA in english literature ,
Participating in my Great Books discussion circle would be a good step.
Sir how to learn English in one week and give some tips please. Cheers sir
Enroll in an intensive immersion program in an English speaking country. Work one-on-one with a trained private tutor for six hours a day, study and do the lessons he gives you for another six hours a day, and spend six more hours interacting with native speakers in informal conversation. If you do this, you will learn as much as possible and perhaps make noticeable progress over the course of a week, but though you can cram a lot in, it takes time for material to take root and grow, and a week is simply not long enough to learn a language.
классное кресло
Действительно, чудесное кресло.
I got as far as his claim that using a tool to remember vocabulary implies neglect of other language elements like grammar. But that claim is ridiculous. Most language students understand the need to develop speaking, reading, writing, and listening skills together very much including grammar in all of them.
So, i conclude that this video is a waste of time.
Thanks for commenting on behalf of most language students.
You're an idiot
promo sm 😄
??
Useless!
???