Balanced vs Single Ended
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- Опубліковано 8 тра 2019
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#Balanced #Singleended #Comparison - Наука та технологія
Were you testing some recreational drugs during the filming of this?
I don’t think so...
Um, peanut M&Ms involved... (and yes they're the best)
peaking at 5:30
we smokinged some a lot weed and i went away to let him film this. will be no proofs.
My thoughts exactly... :p
On a sidenote Josh, I love your new casual "walking around the house" filming style, it gives the whole video a great cozy feel!
Seconded, but would remove the lighting umbrellas first ;p
I tought that it was going to be a z review
Gone are the days when Josh would be interrogating us with information.
Normally i like laid-backness but i dunno i didnt like it, walking around really gave his voice trouble which is like audio-nerdness which nomrally id be against but his whole channel is for audio so
I'm really skeptical as to how "better" balanced sounds compared to SE. An up-to-standard SE amp has audibly perfect levels of stereo separation and inaudible noise floors when it comes to measurements. All balanced amps do besides offering more power is make noise floors even less audible than inaudible and stereo separation even more transparent than transparent.
Also, XLR has always mainly been meant to be used for studios or live sound setups with long wire runs in order to avoid interference. I really don't think it serves a special purpose for desktop hifi.
More raw power, And more seperation ( less cross talk between channels)
@@KenMoreira I mentioned stereo separation in my comment. Like I said, a standard SE amp gets the job done really. Even people who listen to vinyl (which by its nature, has stereo separation of about -30dB) encounter absolutely no issues when it comes to the resolution ot the stereo image. Why would a jump from the separation offered by SE to balanced make any difference?
However yes, the better power offered by balanced can infact be usefu and sometimes necessaryl if you have headphones which are difficult to drive. Still, being able to balance hard to drive headphones != sounding better when considered by itself.
If you can hear noise in your signal going balanced will highly likely eliminate it. Since I have efficient headphones, that alone is enough for me.
balanced for headphones is just to 2 mono amps, so separated ground there is no noise floor reduction because there is no phase inversion {the plus side is less cross talk} but if you want to now more google it. so any headphone can be made balanced.
The placebo effect is real, bro.
Very helpful review!!!Thank you Joshua!!
i was looking for an explanation and was happy when i saw this title from your channel
I'm a try ALL the amps type of person.
Nice video as always
Great, straight to the point explanation. I currently use single ended, but about to pick up some speakers for my desk which are powered, but need to be able to connect through my PC. This review helped me to figure out which direction I am going to go. Thanks!
My first dive into balance is with my fiio q1 mk2. I've been using it with my hifiman he-4xx.
I'm not sure if there's really an improvement in sound quality but I do notice the higher output in volume that I gained in going balance and it feels like the music is a tad bit "fuller" in laymans term.
Overall, I don't regret going balance, but I do think I'm not gonna go into higher tier gears any time soon. I'm quite satisfied with the performance for the time being.
peanut butter m&m's beat them hands down.
uwannafitem8?
Pretzel M&M has entered the ring
True dat
Brownie M&M joins the fray!
I want to like this but I don’t want to ruin that awesome number
AMEN AAAAND A TRIPLLE HALLELUJA, MA BRUDDAH!!!
I have the jds atom and love it! (Thanks to reviews by you and others.) See no need for balanced...for now. Damn rabbit hole!😂
Hey Josh, just found this and, yeah man, I found the walk-around refreshing! 😁 I do use both, and if not using IEMs, balanced is my preference. Periapt cables all the way. Cheers.
DT990 can be balanced, I made my DT 770 Balanced, You just need 4pin mini XLR glued into left ear and rewire them a bit, so each speaker has its own wires and thats it. Its easy job and looks like it was meant to be like that + You get removable cables (so You can also use it as 3.5mm or 1/4.)
First off, agree 100% on the M&M's - peanuts are the ultimate. lol
I've been through a few headphones and amps and I'm trying to simplify my setup. Previously been through the Balanced/SE debate the only major benefit was really additional power, never noticed a difference really. I've had the Oppo HA-1 and Jotunheim for reference, now I just use a Chord Mojo and am eyeing up the RME ADI-2. :)
I use an audio interface (ID22) and it started my journey to having a more powerful headphone amp. I can definitely say single ended is just as good as the amp in my interface. Having said that, I am holding out for the THX 789 for the balanced inputs and something I can build up in the future to handle different sets of headphones.
I do not have anything regarding “performance audio” I am learning what I need from you.
I used to rock my ATH 40x without an amp (I knew I needed one but I couldn't get one) Now I added to my collection the 58x and an Aune X1S 10th anniversary edition.
I find that it does sound cleaner and with a more linear power control, plus the experience of turning an analogue knob does add to the listening session enjoyability.
I actually just bought the HD58x as my first open back and I’m driving it balanced with my Fiio Q3 portable DAC/amp. Mainly chose balanced because the single ended output on the Q3 doesn’t output a lot of volume and the balanced outputs have twice the power.
New to high quality audio. But I just wanted to remake as I am learning, is that there is even a difference between True Balanced and Balanced. So that maybe another considerable factor, that many company's will actually take the shortcut to cut costs by using an inverter. But I really enjoy your videos, they are very pristine!
Hey Joshua, What a great and well informed video!! For me the ethos of balanced signals is they're great for long cable runs (10-100m) but also they are invaluable for "protecting" quiet signals from noise (like
I use an Audio-gd NFB28 2015 version which is a balanced DAC/amp. I use balanced cables when I can.
I used to have an all balanced setup but now I am back to everything being single ended. I personally don't care about the connection, I just care about what I like the sound of and I happened to find single ended gear I liked better. The power amp for my speakers use to make some static noise through the tweeter even when the volume on the pre was all the way down, it wasn't loud I could only hear it when I got right up to the tweeter but everywhere I read said that it was normal for power amps and then I started buying shielded cables for my system (all audioquest) and at one point I noticed that static noise was completely gone, I don't know what cable or cables did the trick but my whole system is now audioquest and everything is dead silent so I'm happy.
I have a questyle qp2r dap which has balanced and single ended connections.... I always use the balanced..... More power and a cleaner sound which adds a bit of weight to proceedings.... I recently bought a pair of night owls and instantly replaced the cable with a 2.5mm balanced cable..... No regrets!
I run my Yamaha HS 7s and my Sennheiser HD650s(balanced) through my Schitt Jotunheim. Sound is amazing. Looking to get the THX in the future for comparison. Great vids! Keep them coming!
9
Hello, I have HS8s and HD650s. How you are switching from headphones to speakers considering that Jot outputs constantly on both headphone and line out? Trying to find a solution to avoid switch on and off my monitors all the time...
I'm just starting out on the audiophile journey, and I have the HD 58X on the stock SE cable. So far, I'm running on no amp or aftermarket DAC, and things sound great. But I realize that I'm going to have to go balanced if I plan to get serious down the line. I have a 1.2 m balanced cable for the Sennheiser HD 580/600 connector that terminates at a 4.4 mm male Pentaconn connector, a 4.4 to 2.5 mm adapter, and a FiiO BTR5 2021 on the way here. Eventually, I will buy a desktop DAC and amp setup, but as I'm in the process of moving, I don't want to get anything bulky yet.
I have the Geshelli Labs Enog 2 outputting the Archel Pro and the Loxjie P20 via balanced. I also have the Aune X1S outputting to the X7S. I also have the Monoprice Monolith THX AAA 788 balanced amp and it is also outputting to a MCTH and an APPJ PA1502A tube amp.
Using the THX789 and just purchased the SMSL SU-8
@Josh, love this walking man format! Do you prefer running your Clear balanced? I have Clear Professional but I’m thinking about getting a balanced amp and cable for it.
I use a Schiit Hel with my Philips 9500s. Love it.
Very nice and very informative, what' s difference between braided, twisted or regular shielded cables in general. Prefer single-ended based amps, it's cheap 300$ below not harder to find cables.
Balanced for Class A, Single-Ended for Tubes.
Have a DX7S DAC going balanced into my Jotunheim, driving my HD660s off of it balanced.
I ordered a Feliks Audio Espressivo MKII for a tube amp, what i will do is hook it up to my DAC via single-ended as it supports single-ended only.
Also have an Aeolus on order, so when that comes will work well with both amps i assume (already have the balanced custom cable for it here as well as a balanced-to-1/4" adapter for when id'e like to tube it).
And in the near future somewhere in Sep my THX 789 will arrive according to Massdrop and will replace my Jut which will retire, to my office, to assist me, work, less.
My setup is mostly single ended, ither from the turntable through preamp or the Grace SDAC both are RCA and go to ither a speaker amp or the Cavalli Hybrid Tube, but from there it's balanced to the hd6xx or my mod of the T50mk2, and soon to arrive the Hifiman xx
I'm on the balanced cables with hd700 /shure se846 into a Pono player.
Really enjoy the experience!
I upgraded amps from the Topping L30 to the Topping A50S. The preamp of the latter is a definite upgrade. For headphones so I can it's not so simple. For single ended connections I didn't notice the difference and I would recommend the L30 because of the lower cost and better form factor, the L30 is much more pleasant to operate. However comparing the A50S with itself, the balanced output does sound like an upgrade over the single ended output. The A50S is probably OK as a first purchase. But I don't think I would recommend it as an upgrade over the L30 (or something equivalent) if your only reason is to have a balanced headphone connection.
Have you checked the fiio q1 m2?
Nice video.
Running a DX3 Pro with HD58X at home and D30 and JDS Labs Atom and HD6XX at work.
Damn that was pretty good portable audio. What are you using, a Rode Video Mic Me plugged into your phone?
If I'm connecting a DAC to my PC, will USB (PC to DAC) be fine for Balanced output (DAC to Headphone)?
I have an Element from JDS Labs, I bought it because it looked cool type of person.
Would you recommend getting the Argon Mk3 with single ended or balanced?
this si really good at putting it all together but I still dont know what is electronically different? anyone know where I should look?
youre real af for the peanut m&ms
Just bought a JDS Atom. Yet to test it out though.
Without getting to complicated and convoluted what balanced open backs would you or anyone else recommend for gaming and music?. Good imaging and wide to wider sound stage?
Right now I use custom in ear monitors ( Rhines Stage 5) straight from my phone. Soon I will buy the HD 660S, love their signature. I will just get a 100-200€ DAC/AMP Combo, single ended. Judging from your video balanced seems to make no sense until you spend much more money for the amp. Personally I never had problems with noise or interference. Thank you for the video.
Well there is the Fiio Q1 Mark 2 which is a $100 DAP; but that's primarily a mobile DAP. They also make a more PC DAP called the Fiio K3 but it is also a pretty small DAP and only has the same quality of the Q1 Mark 2. But I use the Ether CX with my Fiio Q1 Mark 2 single ended as I don't have an XLR to 2.5mm adapter. I'm considering just getting monoprice's THX DAC/ amp.
I am a no money type of guy, one day I will buy a dac, amp and two good headphones, untill there, I'm dac/amp combo, medium headphone.
Unless there is an "OMG what a difference" effect, I will remain with the unbalanced.
that's probably the most level headed approach...i've been working as an audio engineer in studios and live settings for most of my adult life (20+years now), and my home stereo and listening setups are mostly unbalanced. i only really reach for balanced when i'm hearing too much noise/hum in an audio system, as that's primarily what it's for - keeping noise and interference from bleeding into audio lines. it's important in recording studios because once it's there it's nearly impossible to remove effectively. once it's there the only options are processing and trickery that WILL affect the audio. best to nip that in the bud.
@@liquidstar9 Yeah, as yet noise has not been an issue n the equipment and still not drawn to balanced ......yet.
I appreciate your neutral approach. But still feel like this whole thing stems from the "bal is better bc it's supposed to be" bias instead of "you might want to invest in a Bal setup cuz your cans are inefficient AF" reality.
Thats pretty much it as i daily T60 Argons.
I have a MCTH, would using the XLR output provide more power to drive the headphones?
Haven't spend a single cent on Balance equipments & I'm about to throw all of my hard earned money onto it soon!
I got my DT 880 600ohm recabled for balanced drive. It sounds amazing, but yeah, it was very expensive.
So I’ve only got unbalanced headphones, and I use them mostly with the Oppo HAS2E, which does ok, but I am looking for a better one for my DT1990. I know you’ve probably mentioned it heaps, but what would you say is your favourite amp for those headphones?
Hey man, if you ever want to use your 1990s balanced then you should check out Custom Cans in the UK, they did a fantastic job on my 990s
Peanut! Right you are!
Hi, Im confused what "PO output" means. I mean, looking at the recommended headphone impedance on the FIIO Q3, there is the BALANCE which is from 16-300ohms and PO which is 16-150ohms. What does PO mean? Thank you
Single ended with my DT 1990, sounds great.
I am using a conservator headphone the Aeon Closed via JDS EL amp dac. I am interested into getting into the balance world .
Depends on the design
Single ended all the way. Price to performance will always reign supreme.
C’mon. Efficiency equates to power needs. BALANCED let’s your headphone efficiently use the added watts to exercise more easily on all sound mediums.
I'm a single ended amp person and I'm satisfied with it however I do want to try balanced further down the line.
Hi Josh, thanks always for amazing videos. Just a quick question. In the video you mentioned that the balance ended performance of THX AAA 887 (789) outperforms the single ended performance. I have DT 1990 pro and use Asgard 2 currently. I am just wondering if it's worth upgrading the amp to THX AAA 887 (789)... Your advice will be very much appreciated.
He has failed ye 😩
My use on SE or balanced totally depends on which amp/dac/headphone combination I am using to get my sound... one change in any category may change everything. Balanced in general is meme to me (and so is the idea of interference unless you have long cable runs or live in a major city area with lots of interference anyhow, or are a stage musician...), unless you need the power... certain headphones really benefit even if it doesn't look like it would on paper... for example a triple driver sounds better balanced for some reason (but you generally would think that you do not need the power here, but for some reason it still has better auditory performance balanced), and so does the 6xx (which is power hungry in contrast). My 58x tends to perform better SE'd, and actually usually sounds worse run balanced... I will only run balanced into my 789, but run whatever out, as the circuit in this amp is better balanced. Also with tube circuits even if they have balanced outputs this is most likely just for show, because most tube circuits themselves on the internals can't be really balanced (unless you have left and right), and even then, most that I see like that still are single ended inputs only (ex: La Figaro)... which begs the question to even bother or not with pure tubes (hybrids or tubes with actual transformers are a different story)... my 95x is only unbalanced... and it's one of my favorites... but have to run an unbalanced dac into it...
I have to ask you because you seem knowledgeable, and because I bought the thx aaa 887 and I’m curious. If I use balanced in (out of my topping d30 pro balanced out) can I still plug into the se headphone out for se headphone use or do I need to also run rca/se into the amp and switch inputs every time I swap headphones? If you respond I’d be happy as a pig in poo because I haven’t ordered balanced cables yet due to the fact I haven’t gotten a solid answer yet.
Oh yeah, that’s what I really wanted to see! Is there anything better than Grace SDAC balanced for THX preamp? I’d like to get a good DAC under $300.
Tried to go to your Patreon, but the page says no longer available. Looks like you got purged.
I have a specific question about a replacement cable for my setup at my desk. I have an xDuo TA-30 and HiFiMan Sandara. I was a replacement cable the is more comfortable and one for which I do not need an adaptor? Also un $300 would be nice?
I use both, BAL & S/E... sometimes I think that I made up my mind convincing that output from BAL is indeed better but I wouldn't be surprised if I think to listen to BAL and instead my output is S/E... so, in certain case, many variables are in the filed, and for many ears, it's maybe more a belief/"faith" than a real difference to tell BAL is better than S/E.
All of my stuff is single ended, including 3 DACs, 7 amps, and 21 headphones. I have been considering getting the THX-789 (if it ever stays in stock) but the thought of re-buying all of my cables and DACs to be balanced it a pretty depressing proposition, especially with the recent price bump of the THX amp the RIDICULOUS cost of XLR cables. Because of this I have been debating about going into better tube stuff instead but tube rolling can get out of hand pretty quick too. :/
You might look into the NEW Schiit Freya S and + preamplifiers. It may be the best approach when seeking a balanced system . From their website: Nexus seamlessly converts single-ended to balanced and balanced to single-ended, in a single, discrete, current-feedback gain stage. Cheers!
My humble 'setup' is an LG V30+ with MRS7s, and I'm actually wondering if the headphones are capable of more.
I find it a decent combo for daily use and taking your music to work where you 1) absolutely cannot use any open headphones for obvious reasons, 2) would have to buy an extra stationary unit and 3) would rather not leave that stuff around.
I'm looking for a proper dac/amp + open HP option and considering a Jotunheim + 1990s. Would that be an overkill because of 1990s being an SE? That would also mean I have to keep my MSRs for work. That's why I'm also thinking of 1770s + Jotunheim for home + Fulla 2 for work to replace the MSRs entirely and not to rely on the phone functionality. Soo if anyone has thoughts on that combo please share.
P.S. From what I've seen on Josh's channel so far, there are other decent amps and dacs and headphones, but those like 789 and others are either unavailable in my country, or pretty hard to get officially.
you touched there on an important detail, you said some headphones cant use balanced output, but then you proceeded to say that it is like that because they have fixed wires. So my question is: if you mod the headphones and create a chance to have the headphones receiving a detachable cable can't you just use a regular balance cable and connect it to the new connector on the headphones?
SE using a HeadRoom Ultra Desktop Amp. If I'm not mistaken Tyll Hertsens had his hand in creating this beast!!
Hello joshua i'm new in "high end" sound stuff but currently using ath msr7b and fiio q1 mark 2 which is a pretty inexpensive balanced setup even i did not test the balanced output yet any thought about this config?
I'm single ended everything. My headphone setup is a schiit fulla 2 -> Grado SR 60e, and my speaker setup is Bluesound Node 2 > PS Audio Perfectwave 2 DAC > Marantz PM15s1 > DIY SEAS Thor speakers. also a Rega RP1 turntable
I LOVE balanced out of my DAP (Sony NW-ZX300). Big difference to SE.
I wanted to try a balanced amp so I bought a Loxjie P20. Need to get a balanced DAC to make the final decision on this.
I'm using SMSL SU8 to pair with P20. Sounds good to me! SU8 also has different filters to add subtle flavours to the sound if you like.
i use single ended. Pc to SMSL Sanskrit gen6 via optical. Line out split to Fiio E09k (i know it's old, but it still works and is powerful AF. also has pre-outs, so useful for my LSR305s) and Darkvoice. Their outputs then through an A/B switch, and then to headphones. I've also been wondering if it's worth replacing all my gear for balanced... I'm probably going to wait and hear it in person before i buy into it. Right now i'd rather have more headphones haha
Love the reviews. Would you still recommend investing in balanced cables for say Sundaras with THX AAA 789 even if the DAC has a single ended output into the amp (say Dragonfly Red)? Thanks
No Sundaras are relatively low impedance you won't need the additional power gained from balanced.
Sell the 789 it’s garbage. Stop doing what Zeos tells you to buy lol
@@chefgav1 the 789 was considered the bench mark by many people for a few years. What makes you say that it is garbage, and what do you recommend instead?
Hey josh i dont know who to really ask or find out where to get this info but my blue yeti hooked up to my behringer xenyx q802 usb makes a ringing sound. It only makes the constant ring when listening to it in post recording or while streaming. Any suggestions for a quick fix?
Please try Fiio BTR5, you might like it!
LG V20 + Sennheiser HD 58X + USB Audio Player Pro
Could you make , pls, a review for "PEPPITO" snacks? They are so awesome...! xaxaxaxaxa :)
Can someone explain what headphones can use a balanced output? I just made a open alpha headphone and own a denon 7200. Can either of these run balanced? I just need the higher power (mainly for the alpha)
M&M with brownies are tooooooo goooooood
Loxjie P20 balanced hybrid tube amp is a good entry point to pair with dynamic headphones. Pair it with SMSL SU-8 and they make my HD6xx siiiing =)
I appreciate the attempt at explaining this topic, but you said a few things that I'm not sure are technically correct. Balanced topology (toroidal transformers and whatnot) isn't inherently better in terms of performance - it just happens to be the case that the best SS amps end up using balanced topology for the extra power benefits. So for example, you get 4 times the power with balanced topology. In theory you can make just as clean and well performing SE amps, if not better, just with lower power output, and nobody really makes that (the last I saw was the Arcam rHead, but it's also why the atom performs so well). This is also why there's nothing worse about using SE outputs from OTL or SET tube amps. Going back to single ended is not a concession you have to make when switching to high performance tube amps. If you're driving high impedance or low sensitivity headphones, like some of the ZMF stuff, they'll generally do better on balanced SS amps (or OTL amps) for power reasons - and those amps have been designed specifically for being used balanced for that extra power benefit. You need to be able to output at least 250 mW at 300 ohms, and SE SS amps can't really do that, and so when driving those types of headphones on SE SS amps, it won't sound nearly as good. Another differentiating factor is that often high end SS amps have lower output impedance on the balanced outputs - and this makes them preferable for certain combinations. Take the IHA-6 for example, the balanced out is
My setup is: SMSL SU-8 DAC, SMSL SH-8 amp and Massdrop Cavalli Hybrid amp. For Headphones HD6xx and HE4xx.
I've been using the same SMSL stack. I've read that the DAC outclasses the amp but I don't really have anything to compare it to. I've been considering getting a better amp. Don't know if I should wait for THX 789 to come back or go with or just get an Aune S7 Pro. Cans are HE560v3, T60rp, & m1060s.
THX Monolith desktop amp 788, with menus. A JDS Labs element II, Xduoo portable.
Regan: ".... and you'll always be wrong no matter what you say!..." love that bit. Many of the english quirks are from the different base languages that english was pidgin'd together from.
I agree the peanut m&ms are the best ❤
I think the main point there should be is, balanced has more power, and that's pretty much it. For portable device, it's always the case. For desktop devices, it's pretty much always the case, even if some amplifiers are pretty powerful while being single-ended. For transparency purposes, single-ended is actually almost always better. Balanced amplifiers who offer a single-ended output pretty much always, in their specs, have twice the distortion for balanced than for single-ended.
That said, connection between DAC and amp should ideally be balanced, to have more for better resistance to interference than single-ended. But it's not like single-ended isn't sufficient for 99.99% of use cases.
AUNE S9c is a balanced DAC , I’m thinking of getting it
Okay Sennheisers new Ie 40 pro or RHA t20i which is the best IEM thinking on getting one for Christmas?
You can balance mod a headphone with a hard wired cable though, it's just a little more work.
Hey josh !
Your help is very appreciated as Im only able to buy one with no returns.
Im planing to get a jdslabs atom amp + ol dac paired with either (Hd 660s/ dt 1990/hd 700 / Something else under 500€)
The main usage will be competitive gaming. I want the best possible combo of imaging/soundstage and clarity/ detail.
I dont have acces anywhere to try these so Im basing my purshase on the web..
thanks! :)
For your usage, out of those 3, the 1990 is the clear winner.
Many would even say that it is the overall best out of the 3, regardless of usage.
Joshua complaining about the inconsistencies of English grammar in certain cases...
Me as a Finnish person: "That's cute. Now hold my beer while I'll go through all the wordings for Dog in Finnish".
I am a no Amp, but I am planning on getting an amp or dac/amp with the K7xx (so going single-end amp)
Currently using RME ADI2-Dac on SE. Waiting for THX789 to ship ( So I'll be able to run Ballanced). Also have Geshelli purple stack.
Same here. My 789 is supposed to ship May 17th, hopefully there will be no delays...
Hello Josh / Guys, I just got a iFi Zen CAN headphone amp. My probably silly question is...it has a 4.4 balanced output at the back...is there a way to connect my active Edifier R1850DB to that output? The speakers have Optocal/Coaxial/RCA/Line inputs. Thanks for your feedback!
Depends on the amp’s topology and what it supports ‘better.’
Overall neither balanced or singled ended is better than the other. It is all circumstantial. ;)
This. This is the only case where there are differences. Many people hear a significant difference in the balanced ports of some amps versus their single ended plugs because of the difference in the internal implementation. The Aune S6 Pro is one example, everyone says the balanced sounds alot better because the amp disposes of alot more power in the bal and most hi end cans benefit from more power.
Love the Brian Regan reference, iFi has a Zen DAC that is balanced and has MQA, pretty good bang for your buck.
Why did you grabbing the M&M's make me laugh?
I use all of it. I basically buy what Zeos recommends most of the time.
Zeos haha. Zeos is a tone deaf shill