HSE: God Tiers
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- Опубліковано 29 сер 2024
- In this episode, we take a closer look at the God Tier power-up system, and its various perks.
I also make a case for understanding God Tier powers as being an innate inner power of the players, manifested through their wills and thoughts, rather than a power-up granted to them by the game.
This means I argue that every character uses their Classpect powers throughout their lifetimes, whether or not they actually make God Tier. It also means a player can develop God Tier-level powers without actually being God Tier.
God Tier tends to grant players power because experiencing the messianic death and rebirth of the heroes’ journey tends to make people feel more like heroes, and so more able to self-actualize--NOT because doing so arbitrarily unlocks their superpowers. In other words, I argue God Tier is a shortcut to Heroes’ inner potential--not a requirement for it.
This warrants a closer look at examples of characters in Homestuck typically considered not to be good “examples” of their Hero Titles. I provide some examples of how I understand such characters, as well. Lastly, this understanding ties Homestuck’s take on psychic powers to that of it’s namesake, Earthbound--and suggests the possibility that Hiveswap’s characters could well develop God Tier-like powers, too.
Please feel free to discuss and question these ideas in the comments. I’m sure we’ll be revisiting your responses sooner or later, and I’m very curious as to how this video will be received. Thanks for reading, and keep rising!
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Revered Return:
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Awakening:
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Heirfare:
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"Several unique perks."
*Cuts to a close up of Jake's microshorts*
*m i c r o*
Micro Banana Britches
M1N4N4 8R17CH35
I was just about to comment on that!
I JUST REALIZED
the fact that the godhood is pajamas is to put further emphasis on "sleep" which is a huge theme in homestuck!!
"To ascend, you must first descend."
"'Up is down.'? Well that's just unncessarily unhelpful."
While I was reading the comic, I came to think that the God Tier ascension it's just a placebo/tool; anyone can bend reality to their will, they just have to acknowledge such power is real and work really hard to get it.
In the Void all aspects exist in chaos, they flow without clear rules, they invade other aspects's domains, resulting in an homogenous environment where to be alive is not that different from being dead, ideas are tangible and everything is yet to happen, even if it already happened. But inside dimensions, all aspects are in perfect harmony, they flow with order, still interacting with one another, but without being invasive, like a knitted scarf.
This solid order that exists in every universe makes their inhabitants believe that reality can only be manipulated by a god.
What the game does is to put the players in a bubble where aspects still flow with a certain order, but are more flexible than before. For example: Sburb includes planets with imposible landscapes and are inhabited by creatures that break the rules of evolution, two kingdoms with impossible architecture, a second body for each player, armies that uses both swords and guns, use medieval armors and arrive to the battlefield in space ships, etc. All this things are the way Skaia uses to teach the players that reality is more flexible than they think, and the hero titles are how Skaia tells them that they can learn to manipulate it.
The titles give the players an idea of what they can and can't do and, if they are strongly convinced they can't so such things, the God Tier ascension will give them a set of non-combat abilities that will convince them that they are able of manipulating their aspect at their will.
Terezi and )(IC could use their claspect abilities because they knew what they could do and made the effort to unlock their powers. The Signless, though, is the one I still can't figure out how did he realized his powers.
I like the idea of a placebo, but are you not kind of forgetting conditional immortality? That part isn't that dependent of reality, and has nothing to do with aspect.
It connects more to the "story"/game part of homestuck: "they shall die only if killed, in either a heroic or just way" sounds like a myth, a story, because it is. One of the great part about homestuck is that it is also a self-aware story.
Sixela963 The conditional inmortality is part of the God Tier ascension, just like the hability to fly. You don't need to be inmortal to use your classpect powers.
wasn't there also supposed to be a whole "subplot" in sburb (that everyone but Dave skipped for plot reasons) where each player got an item to use their aspect through, before losing it and realizing they never needed it at all? I think GT-ing is also kinda like that. It's nice to have (we see Dave still using his TimeTables long after he no longer needs them in the epilogue), but it's not essential for power.
@@davidrigdonrigdon4848 What item? The only one that comes to mind is Rose Crystal Ball(?)
@@davidrigdonrigdon4848 Kind of a late reply 😅
sometimes i wish the class system existed irl
ugh same
I mean it kind of does. It's more than a power system, and it can be applied to the self just like any other system we use. Prominent examples include: the alignment system from D&D, the MTBI 16 personalities, the 9 enneagram types, and the houses in Hogwarts/Ilvermorny.
I like to think of it as, a physiological theory, in the same way you can apply Maslow's hierarchy of needs to life in any way. you can also apply your own self and friends to homestucks system.
it does
really the whole superpowers thing is just an easy way of visualizing what they mean, everyone has a title, and knowing it will unlock your potential, as when you know what you are and what you can do you can live up to your full role.
I’d love to be the Heir of Heart in real life!
On your interpretation:
I think what we all have to remember about Homestuck is that cause and effect *tend* to be circular. Rose is the Seer of Light because she wants to Understand and bring things to Light (or more specifically, see through the obfuscation of Void), and she is able to Understand and See because she is the Seer of Light. Classpect and achieving God-Tier are both just more forms of Wish Fulfillment.
I was fortunate enough to finally be able to read (well, listen to an audiobook of) The Neverending Story, and while I think Hussie definitely took more from the movie versions than the book version, Sburb still functions very similarly to how Bastian uses AURYN in the novel: he wants something, and he gets it, at a price or with an ironic twist (because his wishes are subconscious and he can't control them), but he gets it. All of the gifts he receives are things he already wanted and suited his personality (as a 10ish year old child), AURYN and Fantasia just made them immediately more tangible and mystical, usually without regard to linear cause and effect. Sburb functions the same way: it takes what you *are* and what you *want* and gives a physical shape to it, because Sburb, like Fantasia, is a World of Ideas.
That said it is 100% clear to me that achieving God-Tiers isn't *necessary* to someone's story or self-actualization. Karkat and Kanaya don't need them because their stories are about friendship and love and other things that have nothing to do with power. Terezi doesn't need them at all, any more than she needs luck, and Gamzee doesn't need them because he's serving a higher power (thank you for the only coherent explanation for his immortality relating to his Aspect I've ever heard. I'm also fond of the idea that Lord English granted him Conditional Mortality like the Handmaid and the Condesce...but both of those people also had alternates with Hero Titles that could be translated into immortality as well, as the Witch of Time and Thief of Life. Effects can have multiple complementary causes in Homestuck, as well).
I still really like the whole deal with the Condesce still having many traits as the thief of Life, her extending on the life of others isn't as far fetched if you think about it with the addition of "To her own benefit", seeing how she turned the Ψiioniic into a living battery to power her ship, extending his chronological/biological life, but Stealing away his individuality to serve as as a mere object for her own gain
Also that whole deal where she could just have the same powers as the Summoner and Mindfang, reminding of the lyrics of a song in the "See me, feel me, gnomey" episode from powerpuff girls, specifically "Give me your lives! You'll have to give me your lives! All your superpowers, All what makes you who you are"
I would LOVE to see a video on Grimdarkness, what it means, and generally the point of it is, as it IS a part of homestuck I've always thought "hey, that's cool, how come we never see it agian?"
From what I understand, Grimdarkness is when a person succumbs to their deepest, darkest thoughts, as such desires and beliefs become their sole defining traits.
@@SomeFreakingCactus and they defy thier own aspect as a result. Rose in grimdarkness became akin to a witch of void rather than a seer of light
I think everyone in the Homestuck universe(s) has those powers, but most don't even know it and don't use them. Sburb can teach you how you can master your aspect and give your powers a boost (god tier). So technically you could still master your powers if you never played sburb but it would be much harder because you don't know your class or aspect and you couldn't become god tier because you didn't play sburb.
Time to do something dope with hope.
There's a reason WP could make what amounts to an Aspect Astrology quiz, and explcitly associate the troll characters in Hiveswap Act 2 with Aspects (and Dream Moons) - Aspect ties deeply to personality and values, not just superpowers. In the Homestuck lens, everything in the Universe is ruled by the twelve Aspects, and it's easy to connect people innately or inherently to one over the other eleven.
For example, I just used like thirty words to say "I agree", which means I clearly got the correct result when the quiz gave me "Lightbound".
good take :-0
Time to bend Light to my mighty will!
have you guys seen the feferi route on pesterquest?
one of the ending heavily hints towards that theory
On the Karkat vs Clover part, I saw it as the "curse" that Karkat had overwriting the little guy's probability manipulation. Also, since Knights can exploit/weaponize their aspect and Blood ALSO has to (possibly) do with blood and, therefore, flesh, I thought Karkat put some work on Clover, ya know what I mean?
My big issue is that if that were the case, we'd expect a bad outcome for Clover. That's not what we see! Clover is in fact quite happy to have a crush on Karkat, he's excited and pleased about it--even messages Karkat in later snapchats. That isn't really an unlucky outcome. In fact, a new crush is probably one of the luckiest things that can happen in a battle, I figure.
optimistic Duelist I mean, hey, if some nubby horned loud mouth managed to tie me up that skillfully, I'd probs develop a crush myself.
Also, fair enough. I see your point.
ecchiCharmed one of my biggest issues with homestucks ending I wanted to see A Gamzee’s rage powers allow him to break outta the fridge and do something funny like get kicked in the nuts by lord English B God tier equius cuz I like void aspect as I’m a bard of void just not on Roxy and C just see more aspects like blood get used but we saw a lot of cool class powers combining I just felt heart was wasted as it shot the same lightning as meenahs did & I would have preferred Karkat using his powers of just dying again and fighting clover and having us knit pick at oh maybe it’s like a critical hit thing or he was able to knock out clover cuz he was a knight of blood and got like some sorta cool hit on him :/ idk just feel like a lot of potential was wasted buuut we do have the next to very last update to look for where the gangs gonna probs fight caliborn for one final hoorah at his dark carnival he made with Gamzee
2:34 Random trivia: The full term for this kind of immortality is conditional retroactive immortality: They can get killed, they'll just get back up.
I think the powers themselves are granted by SBURB or the world of HS in general, but a character's affinity for their class and aspect is more innate.
You mention the characters' pre-game lives and alt selves, but I find it hard to consider those outside the influence of the game. All the titled characters we know of have dream selves in-game for and indeterminate amount of time before entering. With the exception of the Cherubs and fedorafreak, we know they were born in game and by the game's mechanisms.
The fact that The Signless retains memories of his pre scratch self could go either way.
Ok, but: alpha Calliope. She was neither born of the game nor a player of it, yet she was able to affect reality through her fanfiction.
Jake Fassino Doomed Calliope played.
Phesheya Bhembe I literally specified *alpha* Calliope. Just because one version of her played doesn't mean all of her selves get powers. By that logic, Poppop Harley should have Hope powers, and Alpha Bro Time powers, but they don't, do they?
Jake Fassino I know what you said.
They might. Like the video said, alt people like the emperess have used title related powers.
I don't think the game is responsible for the powers, I just think it helps people who don't biologically have them to access them.
I was a little hesitant to watch this since HS analysis seemed very 2012, but damn you've very beautifully and succinctly scripted and edited this. A very pleasant watch, thank you!
How Classpect works exactly seems like it could be the subject of many conversations, as far as how I see it I tend to think it applies to anyone in the homestuck universe. One key thing to remember is assumptions of limitations of mechanics in homestuck can be based on just the limited scope from how they're seen, as Doc Scratch warned Rose to not limit her understanding of how sburb works to the troll's experience alone, so it might not be the best for us to assume the same. There seems to even be some assumptions about it that exist even with evidence from homestuck itself disproving them.
We've seen that players can have powers without god tiering, as John did a windy thing well before getting his god-hood. That alone makes me question how much of a power boost getting god tiered grants, or if it's more of a short-cut to unlocking powers they would be able to discover naturally anyway. We've seen decent evidence non-players can follow a clear classpect, and arguably in cases like )(IC can even use the powers associated with it without going through the trials of sburb. There's a lot of other vague questions I have about the workings of homestuck-verse in and out of sburb but I'll try to keep it to the subject for this post.
In general, like I said earlier, I think Classpect is something everyone has and sburb is just a set of trials that helps people realize them, and god-tiering is just one system to help that along but is not necessary to realizing the full abilities both metaphorically or magic-powerly of the true self.
Also, when it talked about humans not having such a biological equivalent for changing with a god tier as trolls do I couldn't help but think of Jade. Most humans might not mythologically see a biological improvement on their species, but certain people like furries do. I'm not exactly saying all people that are furries would god-tier into one through sburb since Jade's circumstances were special, as sburb circumstances often are, but it's a fun thought that it might have had some significant impact. Plus who knows, maybe it does depend on the individual if biological changes would occur during god tiering, paradox space is a mysterious fickle thing.
I have a theory as to how the condesce was able to extend life despite being a theif of life. Since theives can not only steal their aspect, but also steal through their aspect, she could be taking advantage of that fact to use life as a means to steal the Psiioniics freedom. He's trapped being her helmsman for as long as he lives, his only escape from this position is through dying. Therefore, by extending his life, she is stealing his freedom via life.
stealing through life. that's a way a class can work i think you're right
I actually think you're right about the fact that the godtiers/classpects are not granted to the players by Skaia. If anything, I think that Skaia builds off of *them*, and merely augments their natural abilities to the point where they have a magical, superpowerful control over it. Like, look at Dirk: sure, he was literally splintering his soul before the Game started, but he was already naturally predispositioned to be self-destructive before Skaia gifted him the ability to literally break himself apart. Same with Jade; she was extremely knowledgeable about science and innately knew the nature of space, and relished in it before Skaia granted her the ability to control said nature. Even with Karkat, who never really went godtier, he still had a natural, uncanny ability to manage and lead a massive group of naturally aggressive, destructive younger teenagers before outside influences broke his control. If anything, I think SBURB (or, rather, the prescence of Skaia) just slowly builds up on the power and control people have over their classpects as they become more relevant, building off of innate abilities, tendancies, and talents that the character is strong in, until they reach the strength of a god. It explains why someone like Jake (who continuously denies who he is) wouldn't be able to use his powers unless provoked, even godtiered- because he never allowed himself to become 'himself' in the first place. The only times we saw him use his powers were when he was in such extreme emotional distress that he couldn't keep up his mask and deny his terror and misery, and then he was letting out all this bottled-up emotion that Skaia caught onto with a magnifying glass and completely blew up. It's not so much gifted to you as it is an act of strengthening and using what you're naturally inclined to be strong in or enjoy. For a non-character example of how that might work, I'll use myself: I'm a Prince of Space. I probably fall under that category because I like to draw, and write, and study biology, and I learned how to do all of those things by tearing an example apart to its base componants, picking out all of those flaws, and then using it to my advantage to create new things or understand genetics better. Those subjects (art/science) are my strengths, and so Skaia would give me the 'Space' aspect. I'm also naturally pessimistic, confrontational, and learn how to do things or enjoy things by seeking them out and dissecting every single bit of them. Therefore, I'd be assigned an active class for my personality/nature, and be labeled as a destroyer figure for how I tend to approach problems, giving me the 'Prince' class. If I were to play SBURB, Skaia would probably note those down and slowly begin to magnify those traits until I either realized my full potential or reached godtier, so I can best utilize myself to win the game and create a new universe. Hence, what happened with the characters in Homestuck, why they didn't need to reach godtier to use their full powers, and why even some godtiers weren't able to use their abilities. Skaia is the plot, rendered into its own being, and its job is to strenthen a person's strongest qualities via a classpect/godtiering system.
Actually I hadn't thought of Gamzee's immortality like that. He can't die because him living would piss more people off than if he died. When gamzee dies, it's offscreen during Cal's **MASTERPIECE** and at a point where absolutely nobody present would give a shit about Gamzee living or dying. So Dirk (I assume it's dirk) just slices him in half without it even being mentioned. Probably as a second thought because Gamzee is a scary-looking clown that's hanging around the final boss. Better kill him, just in case he does something...clowny.
adding on to how you said classpects are “basic instincts players revert to”, i see classpects as kind of a metaphor. Your classpect grants us powers we use in real life, simply by the way we act, what we do, and what we strive for. Classpects shed Light (huehuehue) on these abilities and makes them e x t r e m e.
Awesome video! You explain things far more clearly than i could ever! Thank you for this!
Love your analysis! And your videos are great in general, always making me rethink a lot of things about the Lore of Homestuck. I don't always agree or think exactly the same, but your videos are informative and insightful, as well as deeply researched! Really refreshing, as always.
When it comes to God Tiers (classpects), I always see it as Homestuck's archetype system (there are a lot of these, most famously the MTBI system).
Archetypes are similar to personality types, but I think they're a lot more "whole"- they also refer to the goals, difficulties, skills and potential etc. rather than only one's personality traits.
In the MTBI system there are 16 "boxes" you can fit into- and they are very general, covering the very basic traits of any person. They also predict the goals and potential, as well as hardships and failures in one's life.
The God Tier system expands this idea, making a lot more archetypes- more specific, detailed and focused. So basically, there are a lot more "boxes" you could potentially fit into.
However, other than just being a great system of archetypes- it also forces the players to advance in their journey (for the better or worse).
If I remember correctly, Dave once said he's dissatisfied with his God Tier title (or didn't deserve it at all). Later in the comic he (or someone else?) said that your God Tier title doesn't only represent you, but it also challenges you.
This idea seems very fitting, considering how a lot of the players of SBURB were almost the exact opposite of what their title suggests- their title referred to their potential and their "better self", which they should ultimately achieve.
Many of the characters didn't need to reach their God Tier in order to realize their potential and "better self"- I think Terezi makes the best example, as she used her intense mind powers to lead john through time and space (ultimately leading to the Retcon and fixing the Alpha TimeLine). She did all of that while not even being God Tier! (Personally I think she was one of the most influential and powerful characters in the comic, with one of the most interesting arcs.)
So in conclusion, the God Tier seems to be a mechanism of SBURB to help players advance faster and get them closer to victory (this is what the game wants, after all).
Some players need help with realizing their potential and powers, while others do it on their own.
Some players know themselves and what their role in the universe is, while others need the God Tier to guide them.
I find the Homestuck God Tier (classpect) system to be absolutely mind blowing, beautiful and harmonious. It's really just pure genius coming from the Huss himself.
And to people wondering if you can do something with it in real life- you absolutely can.
Just like in SBURB, after finding out your God Tier you can learn more about your potential and get closer to success in any field you choose. It'd help you understand the path that suits you the most- and how to get there.
Wonderful video as always, very insightful, but I gotta know: is 'and then... perish' in reference to the quest beds also a reference to the meme?
this was very well-written and explained!! takes me back to the old days where i would overanalyze me and my friends' quiz-assigned god tiers hahah :> great job!!
"Sweet outfits."
_HIGHLY DEBATABLE._
@@furiousmagician5912 wym, blood players get a totally sweet color scheme
All the outfits are awesome! if you don't like them then whatever.
I always took classpects to be more prophetic instead of simply being what powers a character gets. For example a prince of doom would mean that they save someone's life, rather than having the power to being people back from the dead.
I love how you just perfectly explained everything and I'm still like
????
It's been said before but the Gift of Gab, regardless of the badge description, doesn't actually allow people to talk face to face, it just lets the audience read those dialogues. It effectively does nothing for the player.
I've heard some people say that the Gift of Gab could also be interpreted as working like a universal translator, essentially removing all language barriers.
I mean, there are seldom any language barriers in homestuck. The trolls speak english with reversed jargon-verbose standards, really convoluted sentences are casual and actual short terms for things are snobbish and pretentious. The cherubs/leprechauns/consorts speak english with differing degrees of complexity. The chess guys speak english avobe a certain level (ex Jack, or the queens), and foot soldiers like the Mayor don't speak but can type and read english.
So, what other languages are there to translate? Denizen screeches seem tied to players with the same aspect to the owner of the planet and the Gift of Gab doesn't seem to help, and the unprototyped sprite bullshit is unintelligible. There's nothing to translate in homestuck barring Serenity's morse code.
That's a pretty good point. I think that the interpretation that I'm using is probably more applicable to fanventures than the comic itself, but I still like the idea of it as it seems like a relatively natural extension of its canon effects.
Clock Honestly I always interpreted The Gift of Gab as sort of a joke.
At some point of the comic Hussie probably realized that we only see dialogue between characters that happens through texting. This happened because of the platform he chose for his comic- there are no speech bubbles or subtitles of what everyone's saying. Just a written dialogue- which visually speaking, makes more sense to be in texting rather than verbal speech.
So Hussie realized how weird it is that we never read a verbal conversation between two characters, and made a joke about it, resulting in The Gift of Gab.
Same goes for the badge that allows them to wield weapons without the right strife specibus.
Basically, Hussie makes fun of the awkwardness and absurdity of RPGs and other video games, that restrict you with weird rules like that. Which make no sense in a comic.
I don't think he ever meant it to be taken that seriously.
inbar b yups, that's exactly it. But the end result ends up being the same: the Gift of Gab enables Dialoglogs for the reader. It's a joke, and literally any excuse would have worked all the same.
One interesting thing that is rarely talked about in anything but anger is the fact that, at least in my interpretation, the Immortality system is explicitly fallible in universe. Not only does it not understand the concept of "Mind Control" (or at the very least judges "just deaths" by the metric of whether or not the world would be more dangerous without them), it can be both directly and indirectly fucked with by a powerful enough person or item. I can understand why that's infuriating for a lot of people, but I actually find it really interesting. It's so rare that the "omnipotent" force which drives a given fictional universe is not, in fact, omniscient.
Eli Jeschke This is true, or it would be if Jane and jade were being mind controlled, but they were corrupted.
no matter what put them in that state, their actions were their own and they wanted to do everything that they did.
maybe their reasons were understandable, maybe not, but actions speak louder than intentions and the fundamental rule of homestuck is that in the end everyone gets what they wanted.
Jade and Jane weren't just mind controlled - they were corrupted, had their moral inhibitions removed, had an "evil switch" flipped in them by the Condesce. Their actions while corrupted were entirely their own - yet still, they wouldn't have done them had the Condesce not flipped that "evil switch". It's an extremely edge case - which is why Aranea was able to influence the judgement with her luck powers. It had to have been pretty damn close for luck to play a factor.
I think Hussie specified in a newspost after GO that Sburb *only* considers actions when determining whether a death is just or heroic, and not motivations or outside influences. Which is why Rose got a just death for attempting to attack the Condesce, while John didn't against Jack Noir, because Jack stabbed him so fast he didnt have time to do a thing.
I think the extending life actually makes sense for the fish queen to have she’s a theif of life and she stole his life away taking his natural life away from him and than links him to her own life while it would be cool for Jane to have that power if I had to guess it would work backwards with her giving up her life to extend others lives with the time she had left instead of taking it she would be giving it at the cost of herself
I'd like to mention that the batterwitch extending the helmsman's lifespan could be interpreted as Changing his lifespan. This would correspond with a witch of life's powers, and could have to do with the link between her and Feferi, either in the beta or alpha troll universe.
An amazing analysis !! I Love how you really show the affect the class has on the aspect and how that in turn reacts with the players themselves.
Also! Glad you pointed out the difference between the quest beds on the Lands and In the Crypts, a lot of people overlook that detail!
I just happened to stumble upon you in my recommended, and I'm glad I clicked! You're videos are just so interesting dude, and I hope you keep doing them.
P.S You earned a subscriber.
I wonder how people irl can use their classpect to further their own life goals even without the magic powers bit
I don't think you can since without the superpowers, they're just decriptions of the role you tend to play in the universe.
Phesheya Bhembe and you don't think that knowing yourself and what you are capable of will give you a leg up in the world?
You are the only tool you have to achieve succes, if you don't know how to use yourself you won't get very far.
Really, that is all that magic is and ever was, systems of thought that allow for self discovery and unconventional thought.
Xenath Cytrin The titles don't help you learn about yourself. They help summerize in three words your qualities which you'd have to already know in order to match with any particular title.
Not to mention the difficulty of even defining the classpects in the first place.
Phesheya Bhembe but that is where you are wrong.
titles are very broad in actuality, they have many meanings and uses.
say you are able to identify that a tool is a screwdriver because you used it to screw in a Philips head, now that you know it is a screwdriver you can use it properly for other things, like if it has a replaceable head you can use it to screw any screw you have the bit for.
but more importantly, you know not to use it as a hammer, or a crowbar, because it will damage or break it if you try.
determining your title determines what you are good at, what you do best, and what you are not able to do without hurting yourself.
Xenath Cytrin You know what the screwdriver is by the qualities it has. You know not to use it like a hammer not because you happen to use the label "screwdriver," but because the actual device doesn't have the thick handle with a heavy head etc. It doesn't matter that you were able to pin a particular term out of many to the device. You could just as easily have called it "el destornillador." All it means now is that you can use the term when talking to people who recognize it and what it represents. "Screwdriver" is just short hand for the long list of things you already establish the certain device can do in the same way "seer of void" might be short hand for my skills and interests. Thing is at some point you'd have to find out what they are to see if they match the title, but if you found out what I'm like, you can put literally any label on me to summerize. Calling me "seer of void" doesn't especially help. By the time you're sure what my title is, you've known for a while l what I'm capable of.
Everytime I come to this relative's house a UA-camr that takes a long time to upload, uploads
These videos are great, I always look forward to them!
Nice vid, like all in this series! I always assumed though that when using the godtier bed on a players planet, the dreamself takes over (leaving the players corpse on the planet, presumably), instead of fusing? Thatd also explain better why you need two selves for that ascension version; to sacrifice one. I mightve missed some info somewhere though.
We know god tiering this way results in a memory merger--Jade got at least some of Jadesprite's memories along with Bec's physical traits. In Homestuck, memory merging seems to be the same thing as become one completely--Dream Rose avoids death in the doomed timeline by becoming part of Alpha Rose's consciousness, which gives Alpha Rose her memories. Hence my use of the term!
Great summary!
I can't agree that the time before they enter Suburb, or indeed even the lives of people who never did are outside the reach of Skaia. A lot of people seem to want to draw a boundry between the "game" and the "real world", but Skaia created that real world to begin with.
I would also have to get object to conflating pychic powers with Aspect powers, the two are clearly not the same.
Tell me, what do you think about the "rule of fire"? all god teirs who have acsended on screen have died by fire or combustion of some kind, with the sole exeption of John, who was burned to death by typhus in his original doomed timeline when he accepted death willingly. This was probably the act that allowed him to attain god tier in the alpha timeline.
What do you think about the theory that the horrerterrors are god teirs who were left behind in failed sessions unable to die till and went insane as their session succumbed to inerita.
I should note that while the Condesce was indeed not a player, she was still a paradox clones, and was very VERY old. And even then, extending someone's life is... Impressive, but not mind blowing. Aspects manipulation beyond the very subtle might be extremely limited for non paradox clones, especially those with more ordinary life spans.
If psychic powers are separate from classpect, then why do they all line up so well? Karkat's Lime ability to calm highbloods is Bloodlike, Condy's abilities are Life-like (all of them, if you think stealing abilities falls under Thief of Life, because she stole at least burgundy telekinesis and gold p2iioniic2), Aradia's telekinesis fit Time's motion, Sollux's p2iioniic2 line up with Doom's theme of twos (even if he himself shared that theme of twos), Tav's communion influences Breath's freedom, Gamzee's chucklevoodoos line up with Rage as a denial of agency, and Vriska's manipul8tion takes Light's spotlight/focus/relevance.
Jake Fassino my answer would basically be Divine Coincidence. Or Fate if you prefer. Many other strange parts of characters lives line up with their aspect, from their names to preferred toys to what they end up doing, it is only natural that their pychic powers when they have them, would as well.
Also while there are many other trolls that posess telekenisis or mind control, there are no other trolls manifesting an ability to bend time or shrink objects at will or become insubstantial mist. Their pychic powers fit very well with the standard sci fi defenition of pychic powers, which typically don't directly break the laws of physics. (They bend them obviously, but that has more to do with sci f exaggeration than the inteded nature of the powers.)
A coincidence is twice, maybe even three times. Seven times is definitely a pattern (although it could even be 13, if you count the dancestors of those I mentioned who have them (so minus Feferi))
Jake Fassino a natural conicidence follows this rule, what I'm talking about is basically Fate. Fate has other connotations however which don't apply in the Homestuck universe, so I think the term Divine Coincidence works best.
So basically, you're choosing to believe that's it's not a pattern, and instead a 7-13x coincidence, which you explain away by tacking the word divine in front of it? Am I understanding this right? By the way, I searched up 'divine coincidence' to see more examples, and all that came up were Keynesian economic models, so you may have just coined a new literature term.
SKRUB here, and once again beautifully done video, with a solid exploration of the content!
I'd like to expand on it a little. Ive always said that Sburb is a tool that takes the play of a group of friends and transmutes it into Myth. It is a canvas that takes the mundane actions and paints in on a canvas (a Medium if you will) where it is of a legendary caliber. Thus the flashy Aspect powers are just hyperbolic metaphor for the human yet remarkable interactions we have. So it's not that we always had magic powers deep inside of us, nor is it true that sburb gives us power. Instead, I'd say that our true power is that of the remarkable actions we take, and sburb turns those actions into flashy, reality bending things in order to show us what we are truly capable of.
Also, something that is a personal theory is that the Devine Revival isn't actually a Moral system, it's just caged in moral language. That, Sburb isn't keeping track of 'good' or 'bad' things you have done, because sburb seems like an amoral being with its only purpose being self reproduction. It does not have a sense of morality, it doesn't care what humans think is right or wrong, nor could it even comprehend it. What the Genesis Frog (or whatever makes the decision) does understand is it's own reproduction. Thus, I posit that the Revival has more to do with whether or not you have committed a Great Act, either one that jeopardizes the continued existence of the frog, or where a player has given as much as they can to help it reproduce. This how you get a Heroic/Just death, not if you been an I'll defined 'good/bad' person.
I thought that the reason Gamzee couldn't be killed was because he had plot armour. In fact doesn't Vriska actually mention this near the end of the comic just before [S]: Collide?
Omg this channel is so wonderful! I just recently got into homestuck/hiveswap and these videos are a huge help😊
"Tittles do not bestow qualities, they mark them" ~paraphrased from Silver Quill
WE TALKIN GOD TIERS FORGET LEAVING THE FANDOM
4:45 I've been saying this for YEARS.
This is how I determined the class powers of all of the classes that don't get in-depth descriptions (including my own class, Mage)
I still want to debate you on the verbs and pairings of Heir/Maid/Sylph/Witch
What words would you use for those 4? We luckily have multiples of those 4 roles to compare against.
Liam White
I disagree that Heir is the thematic pair to Witch, instead that it is the pair to Maid.
I am of the opinion that Heirs and Maids create their aspect, but their creation is not the primary verb that describes them, instead I find it to be "Embody", "Become" or "Represent"; They manifest as a the humanization of all the typical traits relating to the aspect that they are bound to.
I am of the opinion that Sylphs and Witches are a pair, those who change their aspects, due to their mutual deep connection to magic; which is significantly more prevalent than the circumstantial associations between Heirs and wizardry, which are sparse and without depth at best, and a complete stretch at worst.
What is an heir but one who inherits? The act of inheritance does not change that which is inherited, it only changes the Heir, or Heiress, filling them with the responsibility of what now belongs to them.
John doesn't change the wind, nor does he change freedom. First,
by unbinding himself from causality (becoming the freest being in existence) he has given himself the ability to rework fate at his whims; here, he has pushed himself beyond the limits of reality, become more closely linked to his aspect than anyone but perhaps Caliborn. You could make the argument that he has changed his own freedom, but you could equally say he stole the freedom of Lord English, or now protects the entire concept of freedom by placing himself in direct opposition to he who would subject all of reality to his whims- Lord English- or many other interpretations besides. His constant refusal to take the reigns of leadership reinforce that he in truth refuses to change the freedom of others, and limiting them in general is negative in his eyes. The most you could say in favor of this is John's ability to manipulate the breeze; no other Breath player manifest this ability at the scale John does, but that fact is somewhat negated by the fact that John is the only God Tier breath player we focus on at length; and the distinction between "creating" wind and "changing" it is a very thin line from our perspective, so using his "windy things" as an argument is futile. When taken with the clear connections between John and Jane, on numerous levels both obvious and not, alluded to being similar, even so much as to give Jane the IRL title of "Heiress" to show the connection between them, far more than that of John and Jade, the truth, as far as I'm concerned, is plain as day.
Equius never takes any action I could consider "changing" nothingness, or obscurity. His blood, however, is used to Create obscurity, blacking out lines of Calliope's book that Gamzee doesn't want read. He also creates nothingness in his accidental destruction of the things he touches.
Mituna's one action that destroyed his mind could be argued to be "changing" doom, but given the vague nature of that canonical description, many arguments could be made besides and is thus inconclusive. True, he did change the doom of his party through subverting the oncoming cataclysm, but the circumstances therein are never quite described.
The Helmsman's actions as the battery of HIC's battleship seem to be more in line with the creation of doom rather than changing it; especially since he himself is already doomed in the worst way, a slave in both body and mind to the Condesce, alive only so long as she permits.
wish i had these when i was reading homestuck lol great job!
I always look forward to these awesome videos
I agree with this analysis 100% :)
But if going God Tier symbolizes a sort of 'heroic realization' or personal growth, how do you think that would apply to Vriska's ascension? Even when she ascended, she was still a total 8itch until she died and Tavros dumped her. And even then, the Retcon happened.
Vriska didn't really ascend in the sense of the personal growth aspect. She got someone else to do it for her and as such, she didn't really realise anything. Vriska is sort of similar to characters such as Gamzee and Terezi who didn't need to god-tier to understand and grow. Vriska didn't need to God-Tier but she did anyway. She saw god-tiering as a way of getting stronger. The game led her down that path of power so that she could realise it was useless. God-Tiering was apart of her process but not the end.
Same thing with Calliborn, he God Tiered without any personal growth.
This is definitely my favorite video of yours 👍
Amazing explanation, as always. Thanks for keep sharing your work!!!
Hmm, are the gt outfits really called god hoods? I always thought there official title were god robes, or sometimes pajamas.
I thought the hood part was just whatever piece of fabric has the actual hood and collar, along with some other accessories depending on class (knight’s cape, sylph and thief flowy parts, heir windsock, etc)
They're referred to as godhoods by a couple characters! That part of the video included a quote from Vriska referring to John's outfit as his "godhood".
I must say, even though I have a fairly different view on how the God tier system works, I do find what your saying to be quite fascinating and Well grounded. Even with my differences in perspective, I can add to my own ideas and make new hypothesize. Keep up the good work, Hope to hear from you again A.D.
Also I don't think "Spurb" grants the God Tier abilities, I believe that HS's Paradox Space/Time is the culprit here.
everyone always seems to forget how when a player dies in their quest bed, yes, all of the memories of the player merge with their dreamselves. but still, the original player wakes up dead in the dream bubbles, being erased from the narrative to be completely forgotten by everyone they love as they take the new godtier version of themselves as the real them. imagine how confusing for them it must be to die on your quest bed knowing you gonna revive and then waking up in the dream bubbles. in terezi remem8er you can see john waking up dead in his quest bed. real sad
Personally, I view the active/passive system as offensive/defensive or influencer/influenced by aspect.
So, I feel like Knight is active.
The way I list the classes is double-symmetrical.
The first way you can fold it is to match up the archetypes (two classes per), and then fold up opposite goals.
Each class has a A/P value, which is determined by the distance from the center. The order is determined by how much the class changes their aspect.
page of rage here *does rage things*
I sort of thought the condesce’s powers were a species/blood caste trait, but I guess it’s maybe both?
I think we have seen Jane's ability to restore life in canon. Grandmasprite is Jane in our first session. As a sprite, she often heals our heroes, especially in the final battle.
So I've heard that blood bounds can't fly...so I searched around and I found nothing that states they can't fly now in the main story of homestuck with karkat and kankri they never were able to fly as they never got to god tier and karkat being unable to fly was a running joke from hussie
So....wtf?
a self labeled asshole
Yeah I think it was just a karkat & kankri thing, even though I’m sure they can still fly as gts we just never really saw the chance for any doomed/tiered vantas’ to do so. I think people think that just because they don’t have wings? Which may be a thing (other popular theories are that they’re too small to see or they choose to hide them) but I would think they would have the ability to, like humans.
It makes no sense to apply that to all blood bounds though, since those two are the only ones we see in homestuck.
this is good video
Good job, those videos are outstanding
What if influence over a persons aspect in the form of a superpower only manifests on humans, the same way trolls do wings? We haven't seen anything that really qualifies as a traditional human superpower from trolls, but with the humans john has wind manipulation, rose has predicting the future (kinda), Dave has time travel, jade has size manipulation, Jane has resurrection, Roxy has item conjuration, and Dirk has soul destruction, all of which are considered superpowers, and you could probably find examples of in marvel or dc canon. Trolls however have never been shown to do this, only more subtle aspectual manipulation.
On the subject of whether or not Sburb grants its players their powers...
I understand the counter-point against the idea that it does, but isn't Sburb tied to the creation of the World in the first place? It'd seem weird to me, that players and their infinite numbers of iterations just happened to share the same powers, or at least have the same potential. Of course it's up to every incarnation to master their powers, or how they use them, but I believe that in a way every being in the world in made bound to a class and an aspect. Like, the moment they are born.
I'm pretty sure Doc Scratch didn't give broad vague imagined/fictional examples for what constitute just and heroic deaths. Looking back on his examples I'm fairly certain he just looked into the future and recited info from the god tier deaths in Game Over.
EDIT: Doubt it'll get an answer, but has it not been concluded that quest crypts require wholesale destruction, rather than simple death? Aradia stayed dead but not god-tier for her whole session until her body was destroyed by Jack. Rose and Dave died when the tumor exploded, and all of the Alpha kids were destroyed while sitting on theirs.
I think sburb gives players their godtier powers and helps them along in their realization of their classpect, however class and aspect (as well as the powers they allow) are their own separate things, and sburb just channels them upon the character reaching godtier.
Excellent as always.
I’m pretty sure Jane can only restore life of god tiers, as she can not restore the life of (epilogue spoilers)
Dad, when he’s assasinated during her presidential campaign
but didnt she revive karkat once
With the Pre Scratch/Post Scratch Guardians they can be able to possess the powers of their aligned aspect. As (And this is my speculation) if a pre-scratch self when there is going to be a scratch in a session that person would still be able to allow the use of aspect abilities. And if that pre-scratch Guardian or Post scratch guardian can be able to use powers similar to how they could when alive.
In example John. He is an Heir of breath. He invites change to Breath. And Post Scratch John (poppop) Became a successful comedian. He was inviting the people to laugh. And for Jade (Grandma) she was able to create technology that manipulated space.
And Should I mention how The Signless was able to remember the events of his time in Beforus?
And so The Condense could gain such abilities though hussie did add on to her to make it ambiguous giving her both abilities of ta Thief of Life and a Witch of Life. Since Vriska did god tier she couldn't have right off the bat to have Thief Powers. But Since Feferi did not succeed in God Tiering she would have been able to get them in anycase along with Taking away lives as well as extending them.
Well, I don't really know anyone who has ever said you only gain God Tier features when you ascend. But yeah, I think it's rather obvious a Title is related to a player on a personal level, through all their journey. It is their destiny, it has always been within them.
Also another thing, if you prototype your dream self with your sprite, you gain whatever your sprite had
I want to make my own Class system, but like, if you are by example an Gaucho, you can choose if you march with your head up high, or you kneel because your weaknesses are stronger than you, not like a Prince, who will always destroy, or like a Bard who will be destroyed, and this ,unlike homestuck ,dont come when you come back to life, you can discover it before or after (if you have the chance to), its more like self discovery, and your own ambicion.
And every aspect is unique to they element, the Gaucho is from the element of Brave, but is a class located in the mind and body side of the wheel. im still working on it, but i have more or less the idea.
from extended zodiac and a popular class personality test i found, i am witch of mind, which basically means
im a changer of minds
also been wondering how in the hecc those powers would work?
when will the 10 minute long speculation of fedora freaks godteir damn it, we know he did go godteir
isnt he the gent of piss
another fantastic explanation!! :-)
What are your classpects guys? Mine is Sylph of Time! (Fairy of.Death lol)
Maid of Blood :>
Really good points, but it makes me think that perhaps this is the point of the self-creation. That because every character in homestuck is made through ectobiology, that this allows them to use their classpect. Things that get weaker and more blurred as they breed and it all gets mixed together until none can be used anymore. They are born as starting points, fresh and seperate, perfect. With their classpects unmuddied and usable.
That's my theory, cause it is a significant thing that makes the cast different. And I don't see any other point to the ectobiology thing otherwise. It has already managed to make some godly powerful things, like the first guardians, so it sounds about right to me that it'd make stronger kids too.
Hi
I’m a Rogue of Space
And I probably wouldn’t be willing to die for power •
Would love to know where you got the information for each of the classes (the verbs they use) and aspects (the ideas they represent). Do you have a compiled list anywhere?
In my opinion, if the death is bullshit and shoe-horned in, then they're likely to get revived, so if it's a bad plot point then you're good, but if it's good for drama and the story isn't ruined then you're dead.
that's how it seems to work
I might be very wrong but I also think I have enough evidence to at least suggest a counter argument but I thought the ancestors pretty clearly prove that godtier powers exist outside of what we see framed as "the game" (the condesce as you mentioned but also darkleer being surrounded by void and invisible to sensors as well as the sufferer using his seer or blood powers to get visions of beforus which are all pretty explicitly laid out as godtier powers) but also more importantly i think separating the world of homestuck into "in the game" and "not in the game" is not really in line with how the story plays out because all these universes are things created by the game and its a greater creation myth story so naturally the powers continue to exist because one has never left the realm of the game im not sure if i explained myself perfectly but tl;dr is of course the condesce is a thief of life and uses those powers she is still in the world created by the game she just cannot reach her full potential and die on a quest bed because she has not played the game personally and had a world set out for her to do those specific things
This helps fill in some blanks for me thanks now I can work on putting together some oc
These videos are great and interesting
I must raise the discussion again, directed towards your unfounded insistence that Heirs are the passive counterpart to Witches.
While I find your analysis quite apt for the most part, it is in the verbiage and placement upon the class scale that I take issue with. Using the parallel with Carl Jung's Archetypes is a fine way to boil the classes down to their barest components; but you would be mistaken to align them to each other on this basis. The classes aren't fullsail ripped from the archetypes, they were simply inspired by them.
Jung's archetypes are the basis for how I understand the classes as a concept, and inform some personality trends I've picked up on linked to each class. Other than that, the idea has next to nothing to do with how I've determined the key verbs or class pairs--I feel I've drawn all of that pretty much directly from Homestuck's text. I paired Heir and Witch long before I even thought to apply the concept of archetypes to Homestuck, too. So I don't really get the angle of criticism you're coming to this with?
If you want to counterpoint my ideas about the classes, I do actually have entire essays about the pairings as I see them out there. Here's the one on Witch and Heir: medium.com/@RoseOfNobility/force-and-flow-know-and-change-6ea05e3e00e8
But as it stands, you're arguing against a point I've never made.
I thought ghost god tier Karkat couldn’t fly? It’s been a while since I read, but I recall it being a point that blood players, specifically Karkat since he was the primary example of a blood player in the whole comic, are “grounded” compared the breath players, thematically keeping them from the kind of freedom flight allows.
I'm pretty sure that's a weird fanon thing and not in the comic itself. We only see one version of a god tier Karkat for a split second, and I don't believe there's any text that supports the idea that Blood players can't fly.
*cries in blood player*
I always thought gamzee’s godtier was like a glitch or a modded insert inserted into the session and the game wouldn’t react none the wiser
He had to get the pieces separately and behind closed doors that aren’t accessible to anyone who didn’t already know what he was trying to do
It was enough to fool the game and maintain gamzee’s immortality but he still sustains the damage from the death to a point
its mentioned in this video that gamzee "fills the viewer with rage when he refuses to die" but hes a bard, which is in the destroyer class, wouldnt that be more the job of an heir, or possibly a maid? just asking for clairty's sake
Seems like one of those weird layers of ambiguity in the system.
He's wearing fairy wings during that section, and using Aradia's time boxes, so I currently believe he's roleplaying a Maid and so accessing the resurrection/extra life/survivability bonus.
He isn't actually a Maid, of course, so he's not as good at it as they are. Jane can just revive with no drawbacks and Aradia is essentially able to summon her own ghost, but Gamzee gets to just keep being somehow alive no matter how much pain and suffering he's in.
His form of survivable is painful and grisly, especially for him. But he's able to play the role well enough to manage to stay alive, and so get the job done.
About him being a bard (I'll refer to a bard as similar/equivalent of a Jester):
Jesters in all of history/mythology/literature have been these simple people, playing music and being entertaining to the royals, singing about history and telling stories or jokes. Also often referred to as "Fools", for they often did foolish things to make others laugh.
Although they usually seem pretty pointless, throughout history they used to serve a very important role!
No one was ever really allowed to criticize the king (/emperor) as it would result in them getting executed. The Jesters however, could pass this barrier through their jokes and satire. They often criticized the king in their jokes and made exaggerated impressions of the king, something that was completely unacceptable if done by anyone else.
This way, there was still a way to let the king know if something was off. Getting the king back on track, I guess.
You can say Gamzee served this exact purpose- being some sort of comical relief as well as giving heavy criticism to the readers, or putting light on something which may otherwise go unnoticed. He's completely absurd and strange in order to emphasize the absurdity of the comic itself and the world he lives in.
As for him being a Bard of Rage, I believe he "destroys rage" in the *readers*.
Rage is said to be related to strong false beliefs and negative emotions.
In this context, it can be seen as the readers being too fixated on the "logic" of Homestuck's universe and believing we understand it all.
He forces us to question the basic laws of Homestuck's universe, he forces us to review everything we thought we knew so far.
*He destroys the Rage in the readers through his absurdity.*
The Condesension can extend life because she steals it from people and uses it for her own means.
Or perhaps because as "one who [relocates] [Life] and [relocates] with [Life]" she can give people some of her own ridiculously long lifespan, or if you refuse to change from [steal], she stole her lifespan away from herself, as [steal] implies no direction
Jake Fassino A thief steals in benefit of themselves (as opposed to a rouge).
In my opinion, )(IC did steal others' lives- but not as literally as you refer to it.
She used the psiionic as a battery, and for that she gave him more time to "live". But was that really considered living? He was suffering and serving her, basically enslaved to her. She took life away from him for her own benefit, but not in the form of literally killing him.
Same goes with what she did to Jane and Jade- she completely stole their "lives" away from them, resulting in them being practically enslaved to her while under her influence. She didn't kill them, but they were hers to use.
So I still believe a thief of life is "One who steals life / steals through life".
You just need to understand that the Life aspect doesn't necessarily refer to "life" in its literal sense.
(It's proven all throughout the comic that the aspects don't only represent what they literally mean- they're also symbolic. Easiest example is John, who actually controls wind [Breath], but also has a lot of motives related to freedom and free will- represented by [Breath])
That's better than I could ever explain it! I totally agree. I just made an observation then applied very basic reasoning to it. I definitely could use a deeper understandiing of life, as it is my aspect, ;u; lol.
but stealing for the benefit for yourself still goes with the fact that [steal] implies no direction. She allowed the Psiionic to steal her life so she could live as her pilot for all eternity, which is self focused.
So the universal specibus is Jokerkind? That sure is looking cool.
I recently started having a theory that Gamzee is only immortal because he's playing the roll of a "God Tier" Since he has meta knowledge he could be pretending to be God Tier, and that's why he can't die
Oof, I was magically unsubbed from you for some reason. I'm lucky I had shared some of your videos with a friend, and he decided to tell me there was a new one.
You really wanna know why Gamzee can't die? Not because of his god tier or immortal but..PLOT ARMOR.
Yep, the dude was given plot armor thanks to Hussie, I dunno.
You can't kill him cause he's a clown
Rage is plot armor tho
Pencilkind Specibus no,it's plot armor,hehasto stay alive until he's killed in the battle against the kids
So, to be enlighten is to know ones mortality? And by enlightenment is to achieve ones true potential. Would that be in Homestuck"s case then.
My classpect is Knight of Rage. I really want to know what a God Tier Knight of Rage would look like.
will this contain spoilers? I just started act 5 ^^"
Yes, definitely. I play very fast and loose with spoilers for this series, in an attempt to make the entire story easier to understand. Feel free to come back once you've finished if you want to avoid spoilers, though I personally feel being spoiled for stuff never hurt my experience of Homestuck.
Best of luck, either way! Hope you're enjoying the ride.
oh okki! thank you for the heads up
Act 6 is half the comic
4:46, captions: "that the players are granted their powers by sperm"
The condes has psychic powers that allowed her to do sburb-like things.
A bit basic, but still mostly accurate, like all your good vids.
HOLY SHIT THIS IS GREAT
What's the classical piece in the intro called? It sounds amazing. :O
The denizens can kill a god tier?
I mean, echidna murdered dead calliope with god tier. But it's not explained if she died in heroic terms
Omg, yesss love your vidssssssds
Im still curious about the time Karkat woke up on Prospit after dying in the lava. Does he still have the potential to god tier? Why did he end up there when he hadnt been to Prospit before?
I GET _NOTHING_
You said that when archiving god tier, all players are able to fly. What about bloodbonded characters? Would they fly too?
Maybe? Canon hasn't said one way or the other yet. I'd guess they probably can, but might not be inclined to very often. But that's just a guess. Whooooo knows.
The way I see it is everyone has the powers, however if you Godteir your powers get stronger.