We had a heat pump to replace a gas boiler under the previous Ofgem scheme. The designer seems to have gone mad with 3 additional pumps , buffer tanks and blending valves to keep the price high. Net result after a year is we have disabled the second blending valve and found a competent ashp engineer from the heat geek directory to re tune the controller to a weather compensation system in the controller and now we have lower running costs with a warmer house.
I’m a non technical home owner about to have an Octopus survey for heat pump installation. I love the honesty of this discussion, I’d feel confident that any of the panel here wouldn’t oversell me something that wasn’t right. The nuances increase the more I learn from such helpful people. I’m about to retire, I’ll be spending a lot more time at home, run an EV and feel that now is a good time to replace my gas boiler with a heat pump. I’ll be benefiting from the government grant, future proofing my property to the benefit of my children who will inherit, reducing carbon emissions and hopefully, making my home more comfortable as I grow older while saving money on energy costs. I’m also considering getting a GivEnergy or similar battery to make use of cheap rate electricity. My question is, even though I’ll be removing a perfectly good gas boiler as described in the conversation, is there some sense in my thinking?
No one ever asks a customer why they want a heat pump. If someone can afford a variable heating bill there is no reason to embark on installing all the equipment to save a few pounds a month but still have to pay off a loan over 5 or more years to pay for a HP
Would be interesting to hear the panel's views of the building regs requirement to fit TRVs to radiators, given the benefits of running as open a system as possible.
Very interesting video. I had to laugh at the last point about low and high instead of off and on. I've been preaching that for over twenty years since I installed my first Drayton digital thermostat. Our oil fired heating has been on since we moved in but only fires up when it's cold outside. I had to set the heating timer to be on 24/7 so that the thermostats could control the heat properly, it really only controls the hot water. Our boiler isn't even condensing and is 19 years old so will need replacing soon and I'm hoping a heat pump would be an option for use without replacing too many radiators.
Hydronic under floor heating here, with an oil boiler, thermal store, all in an old house - boiler is fine - it isn't going to be replaced anytime soon! We've insulated what we can without massively modifying the character and look of the house and we have good double glazing. I've just finished changing all of the thermostats from single temperature mechanical ones to programmable electronic ones. Actuators which were seldom turning off on the manifolds are now lazily coming on and off as required. Slowly, slowly! A boiler which was cycling on and off constantly is now running much less frequently and, when it does, it stays on for longer and goes off for longer. Time will tell if the savings are worth it, but it seems, emotionally, like they are. People look at me as if I am mad when I tell them that we never turn the heating systems off - we just run 24/7/365 with daytime set and nighttime set back - 19C by day, 17 by night. A friend of mine has a heat pump with hydronic underfloor in a newish house. He runs the system for a couple of hours per day and even then, he only heats the ground floor because heat rises. I can't convince him to leave it on all of the time as he can't grasp the idea of a large thermal mass lazily controlling his house.
Another great episode, also enjoyed the last one which was explaining all the different types of heat pumps, I had no idea there are so many, really interesting!
Secondary heat source is such a good idea for the short period of time when the weather gets bad. We’ve seen temperature drop to minus 10 or below but it is rare. I think we should be getting rid of standing charge on gas and have a hybrid system and have a gas boiler for when things get really cold or for water heating. I suspect that having much lower heat pump power would be much more efficient.
The commentator's suggestion of an electric backup isn't great for grid load. Nor is the idea of keeping the gas grid going for longer than it needs to?
Good evening I’m seeking some advice on future-proofing my heating system as I plan to replace all nine radiators in my 3-bedroom bungalow, which currently has a heating setup from the 1980s. The system is currently supplied via 22mm copper pipes running from the boiler to a copper manifold in the loft. From there, 10mm microbore pipes branch off to supply the radiators. As part of the radiator replacement, To future-proof for a potential heat pump installation, should I replace the microbore pipes with 15mm or even 22mm copper pipes leading to the radiators? And also switch old radiators to double-vent aluminium radiators. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! TVR
My advice to you would be to have a room by room heat loss calculation carried out on your home. Once you know the heat requirement for any given room you can make a decision on radiators and pipe sizes. Without this information you're guessing.
I get this is concentrating on carbon footprint but we also need to realistic about cost to home owner. Designing a system to need additional heat source in winter won’t attract people to having it done. Don’t buy a Bentley and get told sometimes it might not get you to your destination so please have good taxi number ready incase. Biggest barrier with retro fit is cost of installation and making good cost also. If you then have to start adding buffers etc to overcome problems such microbore reducing system efficiency really how long would it be for you to reclaim the cost of the installation and making good from switching from traditional heat source. Heat geek have an online calculator- I have done every property I have lived in and best would be 22years to reclaim the cost of heat pump install through energy saving. Just not worth it for a financial point of view. Totally get it in new builds and renovation projects though but I don’t think retrofit is going to take off. Use manufacturer controls and make the existing boiler its most efficient is surely better if it a condensing boiler.
Hi, videos are great. 😊 Is Hep20 plastic pipe ok for a repipe for a heat pump getting mixed answers..I know the bore is slightly smaller but plan to oversize everything.. will this be sufficient?
Should be mostly fine... It all depends on required flow rate and the pressure loss of pipes. Hep2o will be fine in most cases, unless there's several larger radiators being fed from it. And since the joints are demountable and compatible with copper, it is easy to replace... It may be that only a few sections need uprating. But it's up to the engineer to do the calculations and PROVE pipes needs replacing, not just be anti-plastic. And even then, it would be a few sections not all of it.
@@nickmarshall7019my calculation matched the suggestions of my installer. Using it I suggested a couple of radiator changes they were happy to include.
I think promoting a strategy of designing systems to 70-80% is pretty dangerous on several levels. People are already being told heatpumps can't heat the house enough, and this would guarantee it to be true on those coldest days - a hard sell to move from a boiler that could still heat them at -20... Not only that, portable electric heaters are a faff and a hazard. A third of the electrical fires that are fatal involve electric heaters. Plus the extra load on the grid on those coldest days if such a strategy were widely deployed would be significant. If the sums really do work out that some kind of resistive heating top up is more economical and viable for the infrastructure, then surely the case for doing that can clearly be made and it goes either in the heat pump itself (or in the installation side, perhaps in the ventilation system).
In my case, the minimum cost is at 70% undersizing but we even have -20 degrees. Calculations are made based on compressor COP and temperatures estimated by weather satellites. Except that it is actually indicated a GSHP.
I don't agree about not replacing a boiler until the boiler is close to being finished. It takes around 13 months to recover the carbon cost of a heat pump's manufacture, if you run a new boiler for another 15 years that is massively more carbon produced by delaying the replacement. (In theory you could fit a new heat pump every couple of years and still save carbon - not suggesting you do of course😀).
We had a heat pump to replace a gas boiler under the previous Ofgem scheme. The designer seems to have gone mad with 3 additional pumps , buffer tanks and blending valves to keep the price high. Net result after a year is we have disabled the second blending valve and found a competent ashp engineer from the heat geek directory to re tune the controller to a weather compensation system in the controller and now we have lower running costs with a warmer house.
I’m a non technical home owner about to have an Octopus survey for heat pump installation.
I love the honesty of this discussion, I’d feel confident that any of the panel here wouldn’t oversell me something that wasn’t right.
The nuances increase the more I learn from such helpful people.
I’m about to retire, I’ll be spending a lot more time at home, run an EV and feel that now is a good time to replace my gas boiler with a heat pump. I’ll be benefiting from the government grant, future proofing my property to the benefit of my children who will inherit, reducing carbon emissions and hopefully, making my home more comfortable as I grow older while saving money on energy costs.
I’m also considering getting a GivEnergy or similar battery to make use of cheap rate electricity.
My question is, even though I’ll be removing a perfectly good gas boiler as described in the conversation, is there some sense in my thinking?
Good conversation for someone just getting interested in heat pumps. Thank you.
Thank you for your comment and thanks for watching.
Wonderfully intelligent, open and pragmatic discussions. There are so many layers of information here. Brilliant.
Thank you for the comment, and thanks for watching!
No one ever asks a customer why they want a heat pump. If someone can afford a variable heating bill there is no reason to embark on installing all the equipment to save a few pounds a month but still have to pay off a loan over 5 or more years to pay for a HP
Would be interesting to hear the panel's views of the building regs requirement to fit TRVs to radiators, given the benefits of running as open a system as possible.
Very interesting video. I had to laugh at the last point about low and high instead of off and on. I've been preaching that for over twenty years since I installed my first Drayton digital thermostat. Our oil fired heating has been on since we moved in but only fires up when it's cold outside. I had to set the heating timer to be on 24/7 so that the thermostats could control the heat properly, it really only controls the hot water. Our boiler isn't even condensing and is 19 years old so will need replacing soon and I'm hoping a heat pump would be an option for use without replacing too many radiators.
Sat sitting pretty thinking about my 22mm pipe work....then he mentions drayton trvs! More research to be done! Another excellent discussion, thanks.
Thanks for the feedback and watching. There are so many moving parts to high quality, efficient heating.
Hydronic under floor heating here, with an oil boiler, thermal store, all in an old house - boiler is fine - it isn't going to be replaced anytime soon!
We've insulated what we can without massively modifying the character and look of the house and we have good double glazing. I've just finished changing all of the thermostats from single temperature mechanical ones to programmable electronic ones. Actuators which were seldom turning off on the manifolds are now lazily coming on and off as required. Slowly, slowly! A boiler which was cycling on and off constantly is now running much less frequently and, when it does, it stays on for longer and goes off for longer. Time will tell if the savings are worth it, but it seems, emotionally, like they are.
People look at me as if I am mad when I tell them that we never turn the heating systems off - we just run 24/7/365 with daytime set and nighttime set back - 19C by day, 17 by night.
A friend of mine has a heat pump with hydronic underfloor in a newish house. He runs the system for a couple of hours per day and even then, he only heats the ground floor because heat rises. I can't convince him to leave it on all of the time as he can't grasp the idea of a large thermal mass lazily controlling his house.
Another great episode, also enjoyed the last one which was explaining all the different types of heat pumps, I had no idea there are so many, really interesting!
Secondary heat source is such a good idea for the short period of time when the weather gets bad. We’ve seen temperature drop to minus 10 or below but it is rare.
I think we should be getting rid of standing charge on gas and have a hybrid system and have a gas boiler for when things get really cold or for water heating. I suspect that having much lower heat pump power would be much more efficient.
The commentator's suggestion of an electric backup isn't great for grid load. Nor is the idea of keeping the gas grid going for longer than it needs to?
Good evening
I’m seeking some advice on future-proofing my heating system as I plan to replace all nine radiators in my 3-bedroom bungalow, which currently has a heating setup from the 1980s.
The system is currently supplied via 22mm copper pipes running from the boiler to a copper manifold in the loft. From there, 10mm microbore pipes branch off to supply the radiators.
As part of the radiator replacement, To future-proof for a potential heat pump installation, should I replace the microbore pipes with 15mm or even 22mm copper pipes leading to the radiators?
And also switch old radiators to double-vent aluminium radiators.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!
TVR
My advice to you would be to have a room by room heat loss calculation carried out on your home. Once you know the heat requirement for any given room you can make a decision on radiators and pipe sizes. Without this information you're guessing.
Could you recommend low resistance radiator valves please as I can't find them on the usual plumbing sites?
I get this is concentrating on carbon footprint but we also need to realistic about cost to home owner.
Designing a system to need additional heat source in winter won’t attract people to having it done.
Don’t buy a Bentley and get told sometimes it might not get you to your destination so please have good taxi number ready incase.
Biggest barrier with retro fit is cost of installation and making good cost also.
If you then have to start adding buffers etc to overcome problems such microbore reducing system efficiency really how long would it be for you to reclaim the cost of the installation and making good from switching from traditional heat source.
Heat geek have an online calculator- I have done every property I have lived in and best would be 22years to reclaim the cost of heat pump install through energy saving.
Just not worth it for a financial point of view.
Totally get it in new builds and renovation projects though but I don’t think retrofit is going to take off.
Use manufacturer controls and make the existing boiler its most efficient is surely better if it a condensing boiler.
Not one of them mentioned the fact that you will need hot water storage?
Hi, videos are great. 😊 Is Hep20 plastic pipe ok for a repipe for a heat pump getting mixed answers..I know the bore is slightly smaller but plan to oversize everything.. will this be sufficient?
Should be mostly fine... It all depends on required flow rate and the pressure loss of pipes. Hep2o will be fine in most cases, unless there's several larger radiators being fed from it. And since the joints are demountable and compatible with copper, it is easy to replace... It may be that only a few sections need uprating.
But it's up to the engineer to do the calculations and PROVE pipes needs replacing, not just be anti-plastic. And even then, it would be a few sections not all of it.
How do you rate HeatPunk software for calculating your heat loss and selecting heat pump size and radiator upgrade?
@@nickmarshall7019my calculation matched the suggestions of my installer. Using it I suggested a couple of radiator changes they were happy to include.
@@TheBadoctopus many thanks thats great 😀
Oh no... I just had a few radiators fitted and used Drayton TRV4 🤕 oh well easy to fix I guess
😂
I think promoting a strategy of designing systems to 70-80% is pretty dangerous on several levels. People are already being told heatpumps can't heat the house enough, and this would guarantee it to be true on those coldest days - a hard sell to move from a boiler that could still heat them at -20... Not only that, portable electric heaters are a faff and a hazard. A third of the electrical fires that are fatal involve electric heaters. Plus the extra load on the grid on those coldest days if such a strategy were widely deployed would be significant. If the sums really do work out that some kind of resistive heating top up is more economical and viable for the infrastructure, then surely the case for doing that can clearly be made and it goes either in the heat pump itself (or in the installation side, perhaps in the ventilation system).
In my case, the minimum cost is at 70% undersizing but we even have -20 degrees. Calculations are made based on compressor COP and temperatures estimated by weather satellites. Except that it is actually indicated a GSHP.
I don't agree about not replacing a boiler until the boiler is close to being finished. It takes around 13 months to recover the carbon cost of a heat pump's manufacture, if you run a new boiler for another 15 years that is massively more carbon produced by delaying the replacement. (In theory you could fit a new heat pump every couple of years and still save carbon - not suggesting you do of course😀).