I was a radio Broadcast Engineer for NPR in NY back in 2000s. I laughed about mixers trying to “trick” me and get louder on broadcasts. We set everything to a VU and and often padded CDs about 12dB. It’s a lost cause. You music 🎼 just sounds choked to death. The more dynamic mixes actually sounded LOUDER after the AM and FM TransmitterS.
If you want it louder, turn the volume up... don't compress the sound quality to shit. This is the dumbest "idea" the recording industry ever had aside from allowing the consolidation of local stations into monsters like iHeartRadio and the like.
We lost that war. I am 57 yo. I spent a huge amount of time checking and buying a good hi-fi system. As an electronic engineer I built some parts of it. Pink Floyd records were mixed to play well on an hi-fi system. Current records are mixed to play well on 10 bucks earphones. Since earphones are used in noisy environments, current audio industry asks for always loud, no dynamics tracks. This is known. Since music is an industry, no one cares about my wonderful hifi system because people like me are less than 0.01% of the audience. As an immediate effect, currently produced music sounds like shit. It will not change in short time. Maybe never
I listened to hiphop squashed in the early 2000s to 8 lufs, and hiphop squashed now to even lower 6 to 7 lufs. The early 2000s song sounds awfully compressed and distorted, the newer is even louder but sounds clean, and clear maybe a little soulless. Neither is good. 11 lufs integrated with well mixed mid range is king.
For those of you who really want a louder master without all the audible compression, use a clipper at the end of every track and adjust the threshold to the exact point where you can't hear any difference. This should give you back about 3db on your master buss, without the volume sounding like it's being turned up & down constantly on each track, that compressors add.
I would expand this advice by saying only use clipping on transient heavy material and a limiter for the more tonal stuff. The distortion from the clipping can add up and give you unwanted brightness. The technique is genre dependent too. The clip to zero technique works well on EDM but not so much with singer/songwriter material. Loudness is determined by arrangement and crest factor. A dense mix with a high crest factor will be harder to make louder and viceversa.
@@atta1798 😂 ok, that’s what I’ll tell my clients from now on. “Oh, you want your song to compete with other songs in the genre? Just turn it up when your song comes on.” 🤣 That’s ridiculous… Part of the art of mastering is being able to achieve loudness without damaging the integrity of the mix. A good mix engineer mixes with mastering in mind just like a good producer produces with mixing in mind. “Just turn it up” is not good advice.
@@atta1798 yeah, and I’m still missing the point. Maybe it’s a joke 😆 but if so you didn’t convey it well. I assumed your comment was sincere 🧐 and I felt like it was bad advice 💩 . People struggle to get their music sounding good 🎶 at professional volumes 🙀. Understanding things like clipping and how to get a good crest factor without destroying a mix 💣 is important stuff. Not to mention, higher dynamic range isn’t necessarily better 👎🏾. Most rock and pop wouldn’t sound good with DR exceeding 10. But if I missed the point I apologize 😞. I find using emojis help contextualize the written word. Very useful in todays text based communications. 😉
Thanks Barry. Glad you mentioned the issue of Producer Title. Many, especially in the Hip-hop World misuse that Designation. There is a Beatmaker and a Producer.
Judging by the Loudness War Dynamic Range DB where you can compare artist's albums, vinyl released in the very same year seems to usually fare much better than cd and digital
I see you got the new lens dialed in !! I think your right Barry, have you seen inside of a radio station? The station’s stereo track looks like a Protools master track. Spatial enhancement, eq, compression, Sub harmonic enhancement and a hard limiter. So yea I think we’re used to the radio sound.
89 percent of studio videos highlight the 120 different model compressors they have.. 😂 I watched one earlier where someone was saying “ I run through these 8 compressors and then compress it again in the box”
It's become less bad but still not over by a long way. Let's just hope we eventually get proper sounding remasters of all the albums that were released during the loudness war.
They are not as bad as they used to be. I recently got a bunch of Anthrax remasters and others, and they are louder but not compressed until they are unlistenable.
I remember in the early 80’s,there were certain vinyl records that were just not loud…Black Sabbath for example…ANY Black Sabbath record didn’t have the same volume as say,Van Halen 1…..Even when CD’s came out,it was still like that….fast forward to the digital recording,iPhone,ear Bud era,they started cranking up the volume on those older records,to the point where it sounds terrible….it’s louder for sure,but not better by any means…..In the 70’s and 80’s everybody was listening to giant high wattage stereo systems and speakers….now it’s ear buds….and you couldn’t get those volume levels out of vinyl…But I think you are right,it’s here to stay….
I Don't go for super expensive equipment just a 2.1 Polkaudio speaker/Yamaha receiver system and I listen to many genre. I think you should mix for your audience. if you are Steely Dan or Paul Simon you know your audience probably has good gear so do a relatively transparent mix. If your a pop star though go ahead and EQ your mix for radio or streaming
Louness will never die🤘🤘🤘Thrash Your Brains 🤘🤘 Make it clear distinct and in your face but punchy thats what gets me going it's the pure punchyness that gets me I'm a fool for punchy drums that are clear and crisp. I'm still working towards this in my own productions lol.
Your video is a few months old while I'm responding but have you heard of SPECTRELAYER post-mastering yet? It allows the artist to have the best of both worlds quality & loudness & a minimum trade off to achieve both. It's based on MACHINE HEARING & it'll blow your socks off..
Barry, you and I have a lot in common, yet I am miles away from your wisdom. I'm in my early 60's, and have been intrigued by this craft of recording since childhood. I am a trained musician. I took the leap into formal education 11 years ago, and earned an A.A. in Recording from a prominent 2-year college in northern California. I, too, have a "real" job, and call "recording" my hobby/future retirement side-hustle. I have an extremely modest, little, bare-bones studio in my house. Are there any other means - other than the comment section of your videos - by which we could communicate, ie, website, or email? I'd appreciate it.
@@BarryJohns true, but I'd really be interested to hear how you get your tracks loud without it sounding bad, I mean a lot of people seem to think that letting the mix be fully dynamic and then squashing it in the mastering stage is a good idea but to me that looks a bit like trying to get your frequency balance right by putting a single EQ on the master channel. I personally am using the Clip To Zero strategy by Baphometrix, which works really well in heavy electronic music that wants to sit at around -6 to -3 LUFS but I'd really be interested what a more oldschool approach to high loudness would look like.
To me - if you're mixing with the goal getting it finalised... if you're using much more that a compressor, a parametric EQ and maybe, a limiter used VERY sparingly, then frankly - you are most likusing far too much out- board/plu
“The loudness wars are over and loudness won” - Dave Pensado The key IMO to making a mix sound loud without destroying dynamics is saturation, parallel compression and eq
I agree, you have to accept reality, but no need to give up so fast. What have engineers done to educate consumers and artists- musicians who may not have been trained to hear compression? How can we explain this to them in a simple fashion? Once people understand, they will demand change. A non musical person may not like a singer and when asked why, say "I don't know", when a trained musician would say " that singer was out of tune". Engineers need to come together, possibly start by educating musicians (many who have crappy ears from loud gigging). Would you be down for maybe being part of a group effort?
Barry how are you - also remember that at some point we had CD quality Radio Djs were playing the songs from CD's . and then we went to MP3 at dose time digital stores had the music at 128 or even less lot of people thing that people can't tell the difference back in the day , let me tell you something one of the tricks I had back in the days , is that I knew that a lot of the Djs get there music at Record Pools so I always collected music I had a lot of the music and I still do in CD so a rip the CD in Wave and will mix it out intro or nothing and my music sounded way superior then the oder DJ that got the music from a record pool the remixer probably got the song from a store at 128kbps or less at that time went to a DAW edit the song and compress and limit and EQ the whole song again and loss quality in the proses and a lot of these remixers did not know what they were doing and a lot of them they still don't and there were not that many plugins with all the Presets like today and al the AI like today.. so there was that competicion . they always ask me were did I get my music cause it sounded better , a lot of the Radio DJS in reality dont know nothing about enhancing music some do but the majority have no idea , they started using also Edits by Remixers and Remixers will Try to sound better then there competition by making the music louder , or making music that is not club friendly club Friendly Etc but Music war did not start there , in reality I have no idea were it started there is a lot of rumors about that , but what I do know is what I saw , I also sow that ones the music Streaming started on the beginning , there was a lot of different in volumes so that also added to all this . another thing I notice I buy a lot of music from Apple Music . a lot of the old songs sounded lower in volume now in days I go and download the same song I buy maybe 6 years back and the volume increase and they mess up the dynamics and this is not the artist is the stores to try to make the music sound even for there streaming costumers , so they are messing up a lot of the old music , I wish they will just let the music the way the artist entended the listener to hear there music . and of course there is a lot more to the story , were it started who knows but we do know that people perceive the same song different if the volume is higher they thing it sounds better , and you need a lot of hearing training to detect bad stuff in the same song at a lower volume for example if you hear artifacts resonants or the sound is larger or shorter etc they majority of people hear the song as a one thing not as a whole Buch of elements that makes a song, love your video
Because louder sounds “better”, a lot of artist lacking talent are instructing master engineers for louder settings. If they would make better music in the first place, they wouldn’t have to worry about it. There are tons of perfect examples of awesome music done in the ‘60s, ‘70s and such where they didn’t had gear optimization to reach louder results, and yet it sounded awesome, with plenty of dynamics. As usual, most of the music result will come from the source audio and not the gear they used to record it.
Thats not totally true, sure modern music sucks BUUUUT. If you take the same recording and play it back one louder than the other most will say the louder one sounds better. I find myself guilty of it when comparing original released vs remasters. I then adjust the volume and usually it's the same (unless it was brutally compressed). But my ears at first think the louder one sounds better.
It’s cosmetic, I have bass traps and acoustic panels that I make in my shop behind them. The other foam is to protect the guitars hanging on the wall. It was all free. Try to ask questions before you judge.
Tom it’s perfectly cool if you I don’t like the channel. Please consider the name of the show is studio talk, it’s been very successful, so most people appreciate it. If you are not one that’s ok.
I was a radio Broadcast Engineer for NPR in NY back in 2000s. I laughed about mixers trying to “trick” me and get louder on broadcasts. We set everything to a VU and and often padded CDs about 12dB. It’s a lost cause. You music 🎼 just sounds choked to death. The more dynamic mixes actually sounded LOUDER after the AM and FM TransmitterS.
If you want it louder, turn the volume up... don't compress the sound quality to shit. This is the dumbest "idea" the recording industry ever had aside from allowing the consolidation of local stations into monsters like iHeartRadio and the like.
We lost that war. I am 57 yo. I spent a huge amount of time checking and buying a good hi-fi system. As an electronic engineer I built some parts of it. Pink Floyd records were mixed to play well on an hi-fi system. Current records are mixed to play well on 10 bucks earphones. Since earphones are used in noisy environments, current audio industry asks for always loud, no dynamics tracks. This is known. Since music is an industry, no one cares about my wonderful hifi system because people like me are less than 0.01% of the audience.
As an immediate effect, currently produced music sounds like shit. It will not change in short time. Maybe never
Nothing to lose.....the industry improved and recognized loudness is no longer good when the audio is destroyed....justruned up the volume
I listened to hiphop squashed in the early 2000s to 8 lufs, and hiphop squashed now to even lower 6 to 7 lufs. The early 2000s song sounds awfully compressed and distorted, the newer is even louder but sounds clean, and clear maybe a little soulless. Neither is good. 11 lufs integrated with well mixed mid range is king.
For those of you who really want a louder master without all the audible compression, use a clipper at the end of every track and adjust the threshold to the exact point where you can't hear any difference. This should give you back about 3db on your master buss, without the volume sounding like it's being turned up & down constantly on each track, that compressors add.
I would expand this advice by saying only use clipping on transient heavy material and a limiter for the more tonal stuff. The distortion from the clipping can add up and give you unwanted brightness. The technique is genre dependent too. The clip to zero technique works well on EDM but not so much with singer/songwriter material. Loudness is determined by arrangement and crest factor. A dense mix with a high crest factor will be harder to make louder and viceversa.
@@davidasher22 Just turn up the volume and preserve its quality.
@@atta1798 😂 ok, that’s what I’ll tell my clients from now on. “Oh, you want your song to compete with other songs in the genre? Just turn it up when your song comes on.” 🤣 That’s ridiculous… Part of the art of mastering is being able to achieve loudness without damaging the integrity of the mix. A good mix engineer mixes with mastering in mind just like a good producer produces with mixing in mind. “Just turn it up” is not good advice.
@@davidasher22 keep on laughing 😃 you missed the point.
@@atta1798 yeah, and I’m still missing the point. Maybe it’s a joke 😆 but if so you didn’t convey it well. I assumed your comment was sincere 🧐 and I felt like it was bad advice 💩 . People struggle to get their music sounding good 🎶 at professional volumes 🙀. Understanding things like clipping and how to get a good crest factor without destroying a mix 💣 is important stuff. Not to mention, higher dynamic range isn’t necessarily better 👎🏾. Most rock and pop wouldn’t sound good with DR exceeding 10. But if I missed the point I apologize 😞. I find using emojis help contextualize the written word. Very useful in todays text based communications. 😉
Thanks Barry. Glad you mentioned the issue of Producer Title. Many, especially in the Hip-hop World misuse that Designation. There is a Beatmaker and a Producer.
The loudness war is over. Crap won.
The best compression is no dynamic compression at all, master your music like it is 1985.
Judging by the Loudness War Dynamic Range DB where you can compare artist's albums, vinyl released in the very same year seems to usually fare much better than cd and digital
I see you got the new lens dialed in !! I think your right Barry, have you seen inside of a radio station? The station’s stereo track looks like a Protools master track. Spatial enhancement, eq, compression, Sub harmonic enhancement and a hard limiter. So yea I think we’re used to the radio sound.
89 percent of studio videos highlight the 120 different model compressors they have.. 😂 I watched one earlier where someone was saying “ I run through these 8 compressors and then compress it again in the box”
Dan Worrall won the loudness wars back in November.
It's become less bad but still not over by a long way.
Let's just hope we eventually get proper sounding remasters of all the albums that were released during the loudness war.
Indeed. Its still there just not as bad. People still leave some dynamics but try to push it to its loudest.
These videos are great for the philosophy of mixing definitely for the mixing guys who are very good but just not great yet
Yes I'd say they peaked in 2004-2006 and ended around 2015
the loudness wars aren’t over but the zero dynamics wars are definitely over.. make it loud as possible while retaining your dynamics.. #balance
They are not as bad as they used to be. I recently got a bunch of Anthrax remasters and others, and they are louder but not compressed until they are unlistenable.
I remember in the early 80’s,there were certain vinyl records that were just not loud…Black Sabbath for example…ANY Black Sabbath record didn’t have the same volume as say,Van Halen 1…..Even when CD’s came out,it was still like that….fast forward to the digital recording,iPhone,ear Bud era,they started cranking up the volume on those older records,to the point where it sounds terrible….it’s louder for sure,but not better by any means…..In the 70’s and 80’s everybody was listening to giant high wattage stereo systems and speakers….now it’s ear buds….and you couldn’t get those volume levels out of vinyl…But I think you are right,it’s here to stay….
I Don't go for super expensive equipment just a 2.1 Polkaudio speaker/Yamaha receiver system and I listen to many genre. I think you should mix for your audience. if you are Steely Dan or Paul Simon you know your audience probably has good gear so do a relatively transparent mix. If your a pop star though go ahead and EQ your mix for radio or streaming
First up... let's get to it, my man!!
2nd
Louness will never die🤘🤘🤘Thrash Your Brains 🤘🤘 Make it clear distinct and in your face but punchy thats what gets me going it's the pure punchyness that gets me I'm a fool for punchy drums that are clear and crisp. I'm still working towards this in my own productions lol.
Your video is a few months old while I'm responding but have you heard of SPECTRELAYER post-mastering yet? It allows the artist to have the best of both worlds quality & loudness & a minimum trade off to achieve both. It's based on MACHINE HEARING & it'll blow your socks off..
I will check it out! Thanks for watching!
Barry, you and I have a lot in common, yet I am miles away from your wisdom. I'm in my early 60's, and have been intrigued by this craft of recording since childhood. I am a trained musician. I took the leap into formal education 11 years ago, and earned an A.A. in Recording from a prominent 2-year college in northern California. I, too, have a "real" job, and call "recording" my hobby/future retirement side-hustle. I have an extremely modest, little, bare-bones studio in my house. Are there any other means - other than the comment section of your videos - by which we could communicate, ie, website, or email? I'd appreciate it.
Loudness to many is like a sedative. I know it helps my pain when I run!🎸
I don't think anyone was listening to radio anymore in 2015
I think iHeart radio may disagree, but that really was not the point being made was it?
@@BarryJohns true, but I'd really be interested to hear how you get your tracks loud without it sounding bad, I mean a lot of people seem to think that letting the mix be fully dynamic and then squashing it in the mastering stage is a good idea but to me that looks a bit like trying to get your frequency balance right by putting a single EQ on the master channel. I personally am using the Clip To Zero strategy by Baphometrix, which works really well in heavy electronic music that wants to sit at around -6 to -3 LUFS but I'd really be interested what a more oldschool approach to high loudness would look like.
To me - if you're mixing with the goal getting it finalised... if you're using much more that a compressor, a parametric EQ and maybe, a limiter used VERY sparingly, then frankly - you are most likusing far too much out- board/plu
I think its over with, or at least not as bad 🤣 🤣 I was sucked into that for years, trying to get the loudest/cleanest CD masters…
Loudness wars have been over…We lost! However, with Atmos music, the loudness has to be under control and has to stay at Dolby specs.
There is hope yet!
Nope...Music and audio quality won.
“The loudness wars are over and loudness won” - Dave Pensado
The key IMO to making a mix sound loud without destroying dynamics is saturation, parallel compression and eq
I agree, you have to accept reality, but no need to give up so fast. What have engineers done to educate consumers and artists- musicians who may not have been trained to hear compression? How can we explain this to them in a simple fashion? Once people understand, they will demand change. A non musical person may not like a singer and when asked why, say "I don't know", when a trained musician would say " that singer was out of tune". Engineers need to come together, possibly start by educating musicians (many who have crappy ears from loud gigging). Would you be down for maybe being part of a group effort?
Barry how are you - also remember that at some point we had CD quality Radio Djs were playing the songs from CD's . and then we went to MP3 at dose time digital stores had the music at 128 or even less lot of people thing that people can't tell the difference back in the day , let me tell you something one of the tricks I had back in the days , is that I knew that a lot of the Djs get there music at Record Pools so I always collected music I had a lot of the music and I still do in CD so a rip the CD in Wave and will mix it out intro or nothing and my music sounded way superior then the oder DJ that got the music from a record pool the remixer probably got the song from a store at 128kbps or less at that time went to a DAW edit the song and compress and limit and EQ the whole song again and loss quality in the proses and a lot of these remixers did not know what they were doing and a lot of them they still don't and there were not that many plugins with all the Presets like today and al the AI like today.. so there was that competicion . they always ask me were did I get my music cause it sounded better , a lot of the Radio DJS in reality dont know nothing about enhancing music some do but the majority have no idea , they started using also Edits by Remixers and Remixers will Try to sound better then there competition by making the music louder , or making music that is not club friendly club Friendly Etc but Music war did not start there , in reality I have no idea were it started there is a lot of rumors about that , but what I do know is what I saw , I also sow that ones the music Streaming started on the beginning , there was a lot of different in volumes so that also added to all this . another thing I notice I buy a lot of music from Apple Music . a lot of the old songs sounded lower in volume now in days I go and download the same song I buy maybe 6 years back and the volume increase and they mess up the dynamics and this is not the artist is the stores to try to make the music sound even for there streaming costumers , so they are messing up a lot of the old music , I wish they will just let the music the way the artist entended the listener to hear there music . and of course there is a lot more to the story , were it started who knows but we do know that people perceive the same song different if the volume is higher they thing it sounds better , and you need a lot of hearing training to detect bad stuff in the same song at a lower volume for example if you hear artifacts resonants or the sound is larger or shorter etc they majority of people hear the song as a one thing not as a whole Buch of elements that makes a song, love your video
Because louder sounds “better”, a lot of artist lacking talent are instructing master engineers for louder settings. If they would make better music in the first place, they wouldn’t have to worry about it. There are tons of perfect examples of awesome music done in the ‘60s, ‘70s and such where they didn’t had gear optimization to reach louder results, and yet it sounded awesome, with plenty of dynamics. As usual, most of the music result will come from the source audio and not the gear they used to record it.
Thats not totally true, sure modern music sucks BUUUUT. If you take the same recording and play it back one louder than the other most will say the louder one sounds better. I find myself guilty of it when comparing original released vs remasters. I then adjust the volume and usually it's the same (unless it was brutally compressed). But my ears at first think the louder one sounds better.
The BUG!! I think I have it!! :)
Do you have any suggestions for those cvideos?
My amp goes to 11... so there's that.
Didn't UA-cam end the war by making all videos to -14 lufs?
Good information but I can’t take anyone seriously that has auralex foam as acoustic treatment
It’s cosmetic, I have bass traps and acoustic panels that I make in my shop behind them. The other foam is to protect the guitars hanging on the wall. It was all free. Try to ask questions before you judge.
Just wasted 😪 10mins.
Jesus Christ! Halfway through the video and nothing has been said
Come on Barry, do some prep work for christ sake. Add libbing when you can't add lib is not good. Wasted 5 minutes of my life.
Tom it’s perfectly cool if you I don’t like the channel. Please consider the name of the show is studio talk, it’s been very successful, so most people appreciate it. If you are not one that’s ok.