Your 100% on the ball how many parents are faced with the same dilemma a race bike is the same cost as a top end second hand car you have saved that family hundreds or maybe even more Mapdec is a one off cycle engineering company with few equals loved the video thanks.
It’s pretty much always been that way. I’ve always bought a frame and build over winter gradually waiting for the sales on components. Built an sworks aethos last winter and saved many thousands over the off the peg full bike. Got the frame from Spanish spesh dealer and saved £500 alone.
Absolutely! I did the same last Winter with a Specialized S Works Stumpjumper EVO. Decided where I wanted to spend and where to save. It was a lot less expensive than a full build. It also helped that the frame was nicely discounted by Specialized last winter.
Here in the US, the economics of that didn't work out for new kit when I got an Aethos (non-Sworks) last spring. With the S-works frame being $5K USD ($3K for non-Sworks), given the same level of kit, I couldn't save anything as a DIY build using new components. The SRAM group sets in the US are pretty overpriced IMO...They should be called $pecialized..
Yep, the prices he is quoting are badly researched and selective to make a point. For instance take the Ultegra di2 pro model at around 5k, In another video he raves about a 9K look with essentially the same spec.. I wonder how that is better value which he claims it is????
Whenever I buy a new bike I always have to swap out the bars, stem, bar tape, saddle, wheels and pedals as well. So paying for the factory installed ones is just a waste.
Spot on, It’s what I have always done. For me its part of the enjoyment of the hobby finding a frame, planning the build, working out which components you can reuse, what new bits you need, new tools etc. If your happy enough not to have the latest and greatest, there are some good bargains to be had out there.
If you wait for January half of these over-priced pre builts go on sale for a far more reasonable price. I got a Trek Emonda SL5 for £2100, "landfill" wheels got upgraded. And then I swapped the saddle, tyres and power meter around with my Allez. I've now got a decent Emonda and a turbo trainer bike. Not a chance I'd be paying full price though.
Recomended Retail Pricing is insane, over the last 15 years: Dura ace has gone up 600% 500 to 3000 Frames have gone up 300% £1000 to £3000 Handlebars have gone up 1000% from £80 to £800 Hunt around, find the bargains, build it yourself.
The Advanced and Advanced pro have the exact same frame, the pro just comes with carbon wheels and di2 options. In previous generations I think the only difference between the frames was that the pro had a full carbon fork whereas the non pro fork had an alloy steerer, but now they are identical. Do you have any data to back up your claim that the Advanced (and Advanced Pro as they are the same frame) is "heavy" and "flexy"? Or are you just reading the marketing and inferring that the lower grade frame must be significantly worse than the top spec SL frame? Do you have any suggestions (based on data, not marketing) for frames/full bikes in a similar price range that have better frames than the TCR?
The frame prices are hard to beat, but there are some really good options beyond Dolan and Ribble. The difference is that they get a little more specific. Like the Cinelli Superstar. A very stiff, but slightly relaxed frame. Ideal for a very tall or less flexible racer. The Hamdsling aero frame is a good choice for racing flatter, faster courses. The TCR is very much a middle ground bike. It is the peak of the distribution curve. It sits in the middle of quality, ride characteristics, price. The gripe in this video is that you can’t access the really good and reasonably priced SL frame without spending way too much on components. Imagine that SL with a set of 454nsw and an R8000 groupo. It would fly and only cost like £6.5k
The downside to building up your own bike is that insurance companies often refuse to insure those bikes. Even if you buy a fully assembled bike and change some parts there are often hard restrictions before it becomes "custom built". Of course it doesn't really matter if you always keep your bike in a safe place and don't use it for commuting. Thanks for the vid!
The Giant SLR Pro 1 does come with a power meter. Explains part of the price difference between Ultegra vs 105 models. Giant branded and GP Lama tested it and thinks it’s a good power meter.
Definitely, second-hand is the way to go - loads of decent kit out there for less than £1,000. Upgrading what you have with second=hand kit is great fun and teaches you about the workings of bikes, which adds to your enjoyment of the hobby. When i can buy a brand new Royal Enfield 650 Interceptor motorcycle for just over £6,000 it makes you realise how much profit these bike companies are levering out of the punters- disgusting.
Second hand rim brake frame, cobbled together old lightweight kit- UCI limit achievable on a budget, just like it always was... no need to pay thousands to hinder performance with a 8-9kg build.
There's a flip side to this. Ive been looking at getting an alloy endurance frameset for my wife. Having spent ages scouring different brands it's become apparent that the best option is to buy the cheapest Trek Domane AL full bike, rip off the Claris gruppo and wheels and stick some half decent wheels (which I already have) and a 105 groupset. In the sale I can get the whole bike for around £700. A 105-spec Domane AL then for around £1200. Thats what I would have expected to pay pre-C19.
In my experience, whether or not custom building provides a better value comes down to what frames are being considered and who's going to do the labor of assembly. If you're very particular about wanting a best in class frame, whether we're talking about the top 10% of carbon, Steel, or titanium frames, then there's no getting around paying a premium for it. Ebay sellers will charge a premium just like the brands do. And if you're going to have your LBS build the bike, tack on an extra $300 (in Seattle). Wheels are a commodity now, and there's very little reason in my view to pay more than $1,500 fully built and shipped. If you truly need a better wheel than that, then you should probably be getting them for free. Put another way, if you're not getting them for free, then you probably don't really need a wheelset better than $1500 will get you. I built my Ti bike because I wanted something unique. I paid wholesale or Craigslist prices for almost every component, and it came out to just over $4k. I can buy a comparable bike from Lynskey for less right now, but only because I'm not demanding the BEST Ti frame. If I wanted only a Moots, Seven, or Davidson, I'd be at $6-7K for my build. So, if you want a top quality and highly sought after frame, there is no cheap path because the brand will crush you on the bundle or the individual frame price, and the secondary market won't be much cheaper for the frame, and you'll have to pay for install. If you can install yourself and find a deal, then sure, there are savings to be had, but that situation doesn't present itself to most riders.
Figured this out for myself this year when I went to get a new road bike, with a budget of around 20,000 Chinese Yuan (around 2100 pounds). Didn't really like the specs on any of the pre-built bikes that were available here in China so I decided to build up a bike for myself. Ended up getting a custom Ti frame from Waltly (including Ti seatpost and stem and a carbon fork), Ultegra R8000 mechanical shifters and derailleurs, hand built 50mm deep carbon wheels with DT Swiss 350 hubs, PRO aluminum aero handlebar, cable actuated hydraulic brakes, and a spider power meter for the same basic budget, and since I'm somewhat mechanically competent I was able to build the bike up myself. Weight is around 9kg and it's a beautiful, quick, and comfortable bike that I really love. It also has the ability to be upgraded to Di2 and hydraulic brakes later in the future which I will probably do in a year or two.
I did the same thing recently, and I think I'm going to keep doing it this way. If you are price conscious it gives you so much flexibility to find deals, and you can upgrade as you go. I ended up replacing an old and heavily dented CAAD 9 with a Fuji Roubaix Elite frame which was basically on a bankruptcy sale, and picked out the crankset, handlebars, and wheels that I wanted, and finally just now am swapping the old mix of Chorus/Record 10 to Chorus 12 (which seems to be super cheap at the moment). I don't think I could have justified spending $2k+ all at once on a new bike. If you like picking out your own parts, and have a local bike shop you like, I think it is a no brainer. The only "downside" I would say is you have a lot of choices that maybe don't make a big difference so you can spend too much time thinking about things.
I've assembled my last two bikes from framesets up. The two main advantages for me are 1. Being able to tweak components to adjust fit characteristics such as bar width and stem length and 2. Specifying componentry such as crank length and chainset size
Yes, well said! For me it would be literally useless to buy any „mail order bike“ like canyon e.g., because i definitely need 175 mm cranks and they donˋt allow to customize the crank length, which i find ludicrous! I went for custom builds for three of my four bikes and this is the best you can do!
Interesting you have Giant website up. Last year I bought a tcr sl frame for $2,900 new. Pieced together Dura ace components, Farsport wheels. Basically have a pro caliber bike for half the price.
All my CX bikes are custom built. Best way to save money if your willing to work on getting desired parts for the bike right way. Plus you know how it is built up which makes easier how to do basic maintenance later. Plus a sense of pride that you built your bike up and more willing to take care of it.
Any recommendations for an alloy CX frameset to build something up? Most manufacturers have stopped making them. Second hand bikes with the features I want (disc, flat mount, thru axles F/R, internal routing, BSA BB, no weird standards) are pretty rare in the UK.
@@TheThedynamitekid based in Socal so do not know the international smaller brands for frame makers. A lot of the alloy frames are more entry level so more relaxed geo than the higher end. There are high end alloy frames which race geo. Some alloy frames have carbon seatstays. Some frames will be supper stiff race only or more give for longer rides. My alloy frames were canti till the new one with mech post mount disc this past winter. If you can find jamis nova as it was in the period of transition form canti to disc so later models will have disc. Then if a you can find a redline conquest a very good alloy cx bike from a couple decades ago as they ahead of time with having disc and canti possible. There could be other frame makers like that way ahead the big makers. Cannondale alloy cadd cx frames will sometimes ship with BB adaptor sleeve to convert to BSA. Some of the major frame makers may do that as well. Then are some mail order companys to look up. Trouble with older frames will be tire clearance as older frames may set to CX uci race standards so no more then 35mm or if lucky up to 40mm. Best advice look around and ask questions before purchase. Try bike shops as they may be sitting on frames in storage their having trouble selling but brand new.
It’s a big topic that’s not going to get answered in a comment. There are a lot of excellent frames out there for a % more money that out perform in one characteristic or another.
@@17cream there are a lot of vids on the channel that will help you validate. Mediocre just means medium. The TCR is the ultimate medium bike. It doesn’t excel or underperform in any one area. It’s a peak of the normal distribution, the epitome of average. It a Toyota Corolla. The best seller with the fewest objectionable qualities. Don’t get upset about it.
I have built my last 3 bikes. This allows more customisation of bars, wheels, saddle and tires. And still saved $1000s of dollars doing it this way. I personally would never buy a full bike from a store anymore!
Would like to hear more about aluminium frames. They are a much more sensible choice for budget conscious people, but i do feel there are little options from the big brands, in part because often they are always offered as full bikes only. Apart from the CAAD13, the Allez Sprint, the Emonda ALR, what are other good alu frames to consider? I think the BMC Alr Is sold as a complete bike only, that’s a shame.
Always bought by bikes from the frame up, mainly new stuff, some carried over, its part of the enjoyment. Custom handbuilt wheels are also the way to go, specced to how you want rather than the factory telling you what you want.
You make some good points, but the TCR Advanced frame is the same as the Advanced Pro. They both use the Advanced-Grade Composite; the SL uses Advanced SL-Grade Composite, which is stiffer. Some say too-stiff. The only difference between the Advanced and Advanced Pro is oversized steerer on the pro, which actually makes the ‘lower tier’ Advanced frameset a great buy with the adaptable 11/8 carbon steerer. I’ve seen no record of anyone saying the non-SL TCRs are noodly. All reports have been that they perform very well in terms of stiffness.
This is covered lower in the comments. Quickly. The Pro has the power core BB, and it does make a difference in race situations. Accelerating, sprinting etc.
Can I add that rim isn't dead? I got a new Canyon ultimate cf sl 8 for $2400 cause my '06 lemond cracked. Already had some mercury S5 wheels and I instantly doubled my inventory on groupset (R8000 Ultegra) since that comes stock on the canyon and I previously had this on my Lemond. The Canyon Ultimate Rim is the absolute lightest road bike for the money.
This morning I ordered a Cannondale Optimo 4 for $1000. I bought it just for the frame. I have a 105 groupset and some carbon wheels laying around. The problem is the lack of cheap frames from major manufacturers. Once I rebuild it I'm sure I can get it to at least 7kg.
I noticed a growing disconnect between prices of complete bikes and the bike you’d have by shopping around a bit and buying a frame and components separately, at least here in Canada, ànd particularly at the higher end. Manufacturers seemed to take advantage of the post Covid inflation conditions. Many of the developing trends in the industry seem counter to the idea of growing revenues by getting more bums in saddles versus maximizing profits from an already existing pool of riders.
You confirmed all my suspicions. Unless a prebuilt bike is heavily discounted say at an end of year sale you’re better off building the bike from components. Cheers.
Upgraded a new Specialized with S-works frame during covid that had fairly low grade components to higher than best-in-class S-works off-the-shelf standard (except Ultegra Di2 12 speed vs the "old" DuraAce Di2 which I still consider a step up) and saved almost 2.5K USD - before selling the left over components. However, was hell and took months to source the correct parts. Also, would not recommend to anyone who does not know cycle components very well. Lots of pitfalls. I almost stumbled with the wheel set but found an excellent solution.
I thought this was well known among bike builders and lbs. I was baffled about the crap wheels entry level bikes have. I tried to stop my friends wasting money on a full bike, but they say they tried it and felt amazing. It's useless to convince someone that has no knowledge abour bike parts because they think its a whole package and they want it to pay once and be done with it.
I'm glad you looked this through and shared it. There are some very odd pricing choices in the market right now since it seems there are people willing to just open up their bank accounts and pay. A couple of thoughts: - Anyone cross shopping for a built bike with tiers like this should do what you did. Look up what the components you like cost and compare to the build and as-built price. I've seen some where it made economic sense to buy the lower end one and go out and buy the part you wanted and put it on right away. Wasteful. - You didn't mention cost of assembly. For those of us able to do most or all of the work, it's fun and cost free (we'll ignore the tool collection as a sunk cost 🙂) But I'm guessing that around here I'd get charged at least $400 for a full build and that has to be factored in. (or it is an implied cost of paying closer to list price at the LBS doing the work - nothing wrong with that but has to be considered) - For value engineering when you can do a lot of the mechanical yourself, the used market is a fantastic opportunity. You talked about it for wheels and I agree. But framesets, groupsets and more can be found too once you are going to that level. Not necessarily the latest-and-greatest but dang fine for half the price.
Hmmm, I wish one could actually get decent framesets or more noticably groupsets, here in South Africa. It becomes even more problematic when you start wanting specific crank lengths and gearing combos - basiclly impossible to find the 170mm 52/36 105 cranks I'd like without ordering especially from Shimano through a dealer - ie: any hope of a bargain out the window. Most people on a budget here end up building with second hand gear (mostly quite dated). Maybe I'm just not connected enough??
I’m 82 yo and have built up 2 doz bikes over the years. I have a non average body and have found that I need a custom built frame - steel or ti. Though my preference is steel. I mix and match Ultegra w Dura Ace. I close my eyes and don’t look at the $$$. I just want the bike to “work”. Which means 24x40 w 11x36. Sounds nuts. Right? I love climbing and go to the East Sierras in Calif to have some fun. But I challenge you to tell me the 40 - 11 is too low. But that’s my cruising combo that you could never get off the shelf. White Industries to the rescue - crank, rings, hubs.
I am starting to see inventory stacking up in bike shops here in the Washington DC area. Expect to see promotional pricing shortly. Also, a bike build up process gives you the decision power to pick where you want to spend the big money, versus value engineering. Example, someone may choose to go 105 on the groupset and pour the money into good wheels. This is more likely to help win races than to buy a Dura Ace group and cheap wheels...
Insane prices, I've seen the highest spec TCR SL disc in durace on sale here in the Philippines from online sellers, going for 315,900 php basically 4,500 pounds in direct conversion. Insane to see how much they mark these prices up.
Best way to buy off the peg is last year's model at a fat discount. That's a bit disrupted at the moment but am expecting some great deals next year. This year's latest and greatest is next year's bargain bin option....
If you're patient and willing to look at other brands then pre-built bikes can be much more competitive (also true of desktop PCs incidentally). Lynskey's been selling a Ti bike with Rival 2x12 for $2950, and over the winter sweetened the deal further by tossing in their Ti stem and seatpost. Now, in fairness, that build comes with an unimpressive wheelset, and the frameset was going for ~1000 a few months ago; at which point a self built mechanical version might save you a few hundred. Your points about both aluminum and going used are spot on. I picked up a 2014 trek madone AL with (mostly) ultegra for $500, and it's been great to me.
I always buy a frame and then build it up myself. Albeit my bikes are more steel and all road/gravel and retro (1960’s). If your looking for value and have the time and experience to build from scratch then you get what you want and not what the manufacturers want you to buy. It seems that particularly at the top end the price vs value doesn’t seem to stack up in the face of it.
I have a 10 year old Cervelo R5 and have been thinking of replacing the aluminium Kysrium Elite wheels, are the Cadex (rim) wheels a worthwhile expenditure?
Based purely on cost, the free availability of parts I would say not. They look remarkably similar to Winsapce and Superteam wheels. Reynolds are making some nice carbon rim brake wheels with nice staandard parts.
Custom build also gets you the right finishing kit without extra cost - right stem, bars, saddle, crank length. Andbas daft as it sounds - the right colour of parts! I had an all black frame, fitted white bar tape and a white saddle. Looked excellent. The stock bike had black tape and saddle, just looked a bit dull.
Big big subject. Top end. Faucon, maybe Princeton. Benchmark wheels for me are the FFWD Ryot. Heavy duty, Pacenti. Aero, Zipp NSW. Blending any of those is where things get blurry
You left out the back wheel and the power meter? Kinda closes the gap eh? I have always built my bikes since the eighties but got a complete SL0 bike (2022 but same as 2023) on sale for 7,800
Lol I got access to a sale from a major bike brand, a $11000 CDN bike on sale for $5500 CDN.. di2 durace, hi mod frame... the di2 groupset is $3000+ CDN retail
I'm glad you bring that point up. Recently I discovered the same. Especially in the high budget segment it doesn't make any sense to buy a complete bike. And this also applies to Gravel and MTB. For example: I bought the cheapest model of the Scott Addict Gravel , sold all the parts and now I'm building it up with a fully custom wheels, new Force Groupset (for less then 1400€), Carbon Cockpit and every bling like titan bolts etc. - the result will be much more boutique and still cheaper then Scott's offered model with the old Force.
I planned some some Bikes for fun and most of the time it got cheaper. Just think about what difference a custom wheelset can make. And most importantly you can buy the parts like crank and bar in the size you need.
When building the bike yourself, you should take into account the hours spent in research, sourcing parts, building it up, investment into tools and a workplace. It‘s a hobby for the most of us, but it still comes with the complete bike … buying the raw materials of any assembled product is probably cheaper, you should do this calculation for a pair of jeans 😅
Good analysis. I've done a few bike builds for myself. I tended to stick too long and hard on a specific bike frame and specific components. Sometimes other frames and components come out as a better solution. Of course price and availability is the most important reasons why I went for what I ended with. Mixing individual components with others ones in the range was another way to finish things off (ie Rival 1 shifters with Rival 22 rear derailleur).
What's your opinion on the van rysel bikes from Decathlon. I was looking at the NCR CF SRAM RIVAL 12s ETAP AXS for just 2400 euros in my country. Don't know how the frame itself compares to the big brands.
I had a quick look at them at the 312. Nothing interesting. Why would you buy a bike where the groupset is the bulk of the price? How good are you expecting it to be?
@@Mapdec not sure what other viable option I have in the 2000-2500 euros price range except from canyon endurace cf 8 (ultegra, mechanical),which is never in stock. Or merida scultura endurance 5000 (with non series crank)
@@Mapdec to be honest I'm just a rider who is passionate about staying fit and pushing my limits, not planning on ever competing. I've had an older Alu road bike for 10 years now and the local second hand market rarely has the combination of my size and specs I want
There are some bargains to be had out there look at the yet to be released Cannondale Super Six Evo 2 that will be releasing in December I feel like at that price of 5500 dollars for the entire bike it is a bargain. Considering what you are getting its one of the few bikes out there that does not seem to be overpriced and full of fluff parts that you want to bin right off the bat. What do you think?
I just had a look. It’s £6500 here. Those hollowgram wheels will have you hated everywhere you go. Internal alu nipples, propriety formula spokes. They will ride ok but prepare for some faff if you snap spokes.
@@Mapdec Interesting to hear about the Hologram wheels. I have other wheels so those are sealable I feel like the rest of the package is not bad for the price.
Yes, Sir!! Custom, ( find your own parts ) is the way to go. I currently desire a top end Colnago. But I sure as hell WILL not spend $17,000. Simple math makes it a no Brainer. Gather your parts at "real world" prices. Catalog and Manufacturer prices have huge profit margins written in. There are plenty of " middle men ", that will sacrifice some profit to make a sale. I hope many people see this video. Helping the average Joe and his family is Golden.
The groupset prices are starting to fall while full bikes discounts lag, making builds viable. Be I threshing to see if the full bike prices continue to drop while components level, rebalancing this market, and the choice build / buy.
Just did a quick look out of curiosity, since im shopping now. I really don't want to piece together a bike. But... SuperSix Evo: $13,500 Frame: $4500 Sram Red: $2700 Wheel set (estimated, only found the front): $2300 $13,500-$9500=$4000 for touch points and odds and ends. 🤔
It's like Giant is holding upgraded components for ransom. It's not like it used to be when there were fewer proprietary standards popping up. Used to be able to hang older components on the new frame.
I wouldn't really agree, beyond the premise that buying a anything new is usually a rip off. If you're not particular, or already know you want to swap out particular parts, there's a lot of good used bikes from people who bought them with false aspirations. If you don't want used, and truly know what you want, then buying new is a good deal, because bike manu's get such deep discount on speccing parts, that the mark up for buying the "combo meal" is really tight. If you really know what you want, find the right bike, get them to order it from the distro, ask them to swap out wheels, handlebars, etc right from the get go. A good shop will either write off the extra parts, or you can at least resell them as brand new.
I did the same with my 795 blade RS. The only SRAM option was 13k, With Red and Corima MCC wheels. I got it down to half the price with a SRAM force groupset, using my own Corima WS black wheels. The only pre-built bike that was sensible was an ultegra di2 build but then you get a bland black frame. I'm not going at a funeral when I ride my bike, so I went the custom build route and I think it was the best choice. I would probably go down the same route if I got a new gravel bike
Enjoyed your video and you are 100% bang on. I live in Canada and last year(2022) was looking to upgrade from my kona rove bike which had a claris groupset. I had paid $800 Canadian for mine in 2019. Well I was shocked that all the bikes in the $1,500 range all ran claris groupsets(the only benefit was a carbon fork). I was acquainted with Merlin through some previous purchases and they were retailing a gravel bike with carbon forks and a tiagara groupset for $1,100 canadian and $300 for shipping, so i took a chance and so far it feels like a steady performer for $1,400. The cycling club here had a pair of carbon wheels (10 speed hub) for $500 so I purchased those and I have to tell you I'm loving this bike. I'm no all star and its just for group rides but in the end I do believe I saved myself about $500 to $1,000 over what was being retailed around here.(Giant, Trek, Specialized). 👍👍👍
Cycling has become a lifestyle sport, lots of people with money who equate higher cost with more performance and more desirable. Custom building is something they wouldn’t consider, too much hassle. Building and maintaining my own bikes is integral to my love of cycling.
I know quite a handful of financially-loaded riders who have one or more bespoke frames, one of them even has at least ten such bikes now. Frame-up builds are usually for those that already know what they want for their bikes. That's exactly what I did at home when I got my first ever frameset I bought with my own money and boy, did it felt so good. A bike that was ridden AND built by the same person.
Most riders will not build their own bikes and will not go through the trouble, simple though it is, of getting their local shop to build for them. The idea of upgrading as you go along also only works sometimes....if you crash the bike, your hand may be forced. If you shop around, you can find great values on used bikes, sometimes you can buy a two year old bike for the price of a new groupset alone. In the USA, there were a lot of people who bought high end bikes during the Covid era and didn't ride them much.
Umm. Not many brands offer a race frame set at that price. You can’t buy an SL7 frame that is not an S-Works for example. So. Cinelli Superstar, bloody stiff and quite light. Giant TCR Pro, as above. BMC TeamMachine SLR just about makes it. Don’t rule out Alu frames if you can find a good one like the anodised caad12. Stiffness will be more important to racing Crit and tracks than weight. For longer road races in hills that equation might shift.
I bought my advanced SL TCR for $1k. Even came with the Sram Red mechanical groupo at the time second hand. I spent $1k on wheels and it is still a dream to this day. I can't fathom spending more money on a lower tier frame. I'm afraid my next frame will have to be Chinese. I switched to Di2 because of the 11 speed chain line issues I was having with the Sram Red on my TCR and it rides better. Need a cheap frame to throw my leftover lightweight Red 10 speed mechanical groupset for a secondary bike, but everything is too expensive still and then there is the issue of finding 10 speed parts
I've built up a few bikes, I always find it cheaper. I built a Van Rysel rim brake bike with force 1x11 sub 7kg for less than £1500, all new but sale parts. My most recent build is a Mondraker Chrono xc bike with Rockshox raceday ultimate and xt groupset for about £3.5k. a lot less than what it would have cost to buy as a pre built. I've just picked up a force axs disc geoupset for £700(not including cassette or chainset) ready to upgrade another bike I have.
By buying when deals present themselves you're also closer to what the parts actually cost shops. So the price gap the host calculate here is indeed much larger.
New cyclist aren't starting road cycling. They used to go into a bike shop, expecting a reasonable price for a nice looking bike and get too confused and blown away by the prices. They won't buy second hand as they don't know what is value. As such it's stalled the second hand market. The bike industry got greedy and the new generation isn't coming through. Too much cycling BS marketing driving the industry into products that are rubbish with no future. It's going to be a shit few years for the bike industry.
My strategy was to search Trek dealers nationwide (USA) for the top spec Fuel MTB that was on the showroom floor but two years old and offer 30% under retail. Just did the same thing two weeks ago for a showroom 2022 Giant Revolt Advanced Pro 1 gravel bike. I think its about timing and finding a dealer that wants to move a bike that's been sitting there a couple years. Lots of phone calls.
There is always the option of buying a slightly used bike at a massively reduced price. Or used components for that matter. I just sold some perfectly good Ultegra brakes for $60. As good as new - I just didn't need them any more. I often buy used as well as sell.
just recently built a tcr sl rim brake version with bargain sram force groupset and winspace wheels, giant pre built wheels are obvious rip-offs, and the frame for the new color has increased price, unbelievable, but lucky me i got another bargain on a second hand sl frame for much less money, i am really happy about this build
It's a bit like cars. Cheap cars don't make much money as you have to build down to minimal profit. However, go up the scale and people are willing to pay a premium if they think they're getting a premium product, which is what covers the manufacturer's r&d, marketing etc.
If you are reading this. I want to upgrade my Pr-2 wheels on my 2022 Contend, because they are giving out (spokes bent, crackling sounds). I want to buy aluminium set up to 500€. What in god's world should I pick. DT Swiss 1600, Hunt 4 Seasons, Fulcrum 5 DB, Scribe Race D? I want something that is a good upgrade to my stocks. I am recreational road cyclist, I do not compete much. I have a disc, tubeless setup, 105 group. I want something that will put a breath of fresh air into my bicycle, but I am not hunting every second on Strava. I just like a good cardio workout.
The Fulcrums are great. Easy to service and repair. Good hubs, quality build. You could also go custom. Mavic Open Pro rims on Shimano Ultegra Hubs would hit that budget
Whilst I agree it’s best to build at the current time. However a tcr and a tcr pro being mediocre frames? They CONSTANTLY get best bike of the year and best value race bike of the year. And as for the difference in them both- the fork. That’s it the fork. One uses bigger bearings than the other so the frame is the same and I can guarantee it’s not flexy in any way
Feature of the pro is the BB and steerer tune. What’s wrong with a mediocre frame? You make it sound like a bad thing. They are the epitome of the middle ground brand. The biggest brand in the world selling bikes that appeal to the broadest audience. It’s peak of a distribution curve stuff. Below Giant is all the budget brands and Chinese stuff, above Giant are the high quality premium brands. Giant offers enough quality and enough performance for the majority of people. It’s a bit like buying Heinz ketchup.
@@Mapdec bb is the same. If you buy a pro and advanced frame the literal difference is the fork and bearings. And it wins plenty of tests to be just mediocre :)
@@Mapdec ask a giant dealer - it’s the exact same frame 🤷♂️ same carbon layup same fibres - I’ve had both an advanced and a pro and have asked when buying what the differences are
@@Mapdec powercore is advertised on the sl and not the pro from what I can see - the sl2 rims have a different freehub aswell and are over 100g heavier than slr1 not a lot really but it’s there :) I think the slr1 freehub is a dt Swiss rebrand
Reminiscent of the computer market many years ago when it was cheaper to buy quality branded parts and assemble them yourself as it was so much cheaper, the PC manufacturers did eventually wise up and substantually drop their prices, but no sign of that as yet for pre-built bike prices?
There’s a lot of misinformation in this video unfortunately- 1. The TCR advanced and the advanced pro actually come with the exact same frame. Only difference is in the fork where the former comes with a normal sized steerer and the latter comes with an oversized OD2 steerer. So in essence, the base advanced version is actually a banger of a deal. 2. The price of cadex wheel that you quoted was just for the front! The entire wheelset will set you back close to £2,500 3. Giant also equip the SL bikes with full carbon components i.e., SLR saddle, bar/stem and a 9200 Shimano power meter.
Noted on the wheelset. They are not worth £2.5k though. The Pro frame has the powercore BB and the Overdrive2 steerer to stiffen the frameset. It’s right there in the spec. Prices still don’t add up to a value added package.
I figured this outa while ago. Its best to pick each part so that you get what you want and choose your frame. I think the companies that offer this type of option will grow. If you add custom paint they will do even better.
Just got back into biking after 25 years off the bike, back injury in my RAF day's, back then mid 80/90s i could get a hand built frame 753 etc with full durace etc for about £3000 ,I've just purchased a trek domane for £2900,full ultegra etc, im very impressed with the bike, its taken me months of looking and researching though, and finding a good bike shop.things have changed a lot though,
You are absolutely right, when you showed the Advanced Pro Disc 2, with Shimano 105 mechanical @£3299, then showed the Advanced Pro Disc1 with Shimano Ultegra mechanical @ £4599, I immediately Thought, that's £1300 more expensive, that can't be right😮 Now, I don't know the exact price of the Shimano Groupsets, but I would bet good money that the Ultegra isn't £1300 more expensive than the 105 Groupset - so a massive rip off☹🤬 I think you are right to breakdown the costs of each part and look at buying the parts separately, to work out how much is parts and how much is for the cost to build and how much is just pure profit (not saying they shouldn't make a profit, but don't be greedy) What I don't understand is that larger manufacturers, such as Giant must be buying the groupsets at much less than Joe Bloggs can because they buy in huge quantities, so new bike prices should be much more competitive and they wonder why they are struggling to sell new bikes..... Another great video, thanks for sharing👍
You're right on this. I started year ago and it had to be 1st (and only one) bike upgrade project. Result was 2nd bike built from pieces May this year. Full Ultegra mechanical, carbon frame and carbon wheels. 7.3 kilos of joy, "combat ready". :D
Here in south Korea Giant don’t even offer the option of a frame-set only. You get what you’re given by them and that’s it. Giant aren’t as good value as they once were! I bought a Revolt recently and I sometimes stare at it and think, what did I pay 4k for. A carbon frame and Sram Rival explr. Everything else is worthless on it.
For god sakes you just gave away the secret sauce, now the manufactures are going to jack the frame prices up😂 good one. I just bout a 2015 time izon, what a great bike that is and so much fun building it.
Interesting analysis. Although you forgot to mention the powermeter on the Ultegra spec level bike and the fact that the page you referred to listed the front wheel only (listed price of the wheelset is just under 3K) .
Don’t agree with the advice on the Giant frame levels. The Advanced and the Advanced pro are the same frame, only the fork is a different grade of carbon with larger diameter steerer. The Advanced is very capable to race on, great frame set.
Your 100% on the ball how many parents are faced with the same dilemma a race bike is the same cost as a top end second hand car you have saved that family hundreds or maybe even more Mapdec is a one off cycle engineering company with few equals loved the video thanks.
Glad we could help.
It’s pretty much always been that way. I’ve always bought a frame and build over winter gradually waiting for the sales on components. Built an sworks aethos last winter and saved many thousands over the off the peg full bike. Got the frame from Spanish spesh dealer and saved £500 alone.
Absolutely! I did the same last Winter with a Specialized S Works Stumpjumper EVO. Decided where I wanted to spend and where to save. It was a lot less expensive than a full build. It also helped that the frame was nicely discounted by Specialized last winter.
Here in the US, the economics of that didn't work out for new kit when I got an Aethos (non-Sworks) last spring. With the S-works frame being $5K USD ($3K for non-Sworks), given the same level of kit, I couldn't save anything as a DIY build using new components. The SRAM group sets in the US are pretty overpriced IMO...They should be called $pecialized..
The price for the Cadex 42 wheels was only for the front wheel, which cost 1099.
Do you still get your moneys worth if you buy the complete wheelset?? Hmmmmm..... Rgr
Yep, the prices he is quoting are badly researched and selective to make a point. For instance take the Ultegra di2 pro model at around 5k, In another video he raves about a 9K look with essentially the same spec.. I wonder how that is better value which he claims it is????
@@cycobikes at the end of the day, he's just a bike mechanic, nothing more. We can't expect him to hold some sort of journalist integrity.
Exactly, and the groupset price is without powermeter!
Whenever I buy a new bike I always have to swap out the bars, stem, bar tape, saddle, wheels and pedals as well. So paying for the factory installed ones is just a waste.
Spot on, It’s what I have always done. For me its part of the enjoyment of the hobby finding a frame, planning the build, working out which components you can reuse, what new bits you need, new tools etc.
If your happy enough not to have the latest and greatest, there are some good bargains to be had out there.
😊😊😊
If you wait for January half of these over-priced pre builts go on sale for a far more reasonable price. I got a Trek Emonda SL5 for £2100, "landfill" wheels got upgraded. And then I swapped the saddle, tyres and power meter around with my Allez. I've now got a decent Emonda and a turbo trainer bike.
Not a chance I'd be paying full price though.
Recomended Retail Pricing is insane, over the last 15 years:
Dura ace has gone up 600% 500 to 3000
Frames have gone up 300% £1000 to £3000
Handlebars have gone up 1000% from £80 to £800
Hunt around, find the bargains, build it yourself.
Yes, your point still stands, though you have to use inflation adjusted prices as benchmark. 500 USD_2008 are 700 USD_2023.
Or skip bicycles and buy a bike it will be cheaper and you will get 3 or 4 times the work out if you do the things properly
The Advanced and Advanced pro have the exact same frame, the pro just comes with carbon wheels and di2 options. In previous generations I think the only difference between the frames was that the pro had a full carbon fork whereas the non pro fork had an alloy steerer, but now they are identical. Do you have any data to back up your claim that the Advanced (and Advanced Pro as they are the same frame) is "heavy" and "flexy"? Or are you just reading the marketing and inferring that the lower grade frame must be significantly worse than the top spec SL frame?
Do you have any suggestions (based on data, not marketing) for frames/full bikes in a similar price range that have better frames than the TCR?
The frame prices are hard to beat, but there are some really good options beyond Dolan and Ribble. The difference is that they get a little more specific. Like the Cinelli Superstar. A very stiff, but slightly relaxed frame. Ideal for a very tall or less flexible racer. The Hamdsling aero frame is a good choice for racing flatter, faster courses. The TCR is very much a middle ground bike. It is the peak of the distribution curve. It sits in the middle of quality, ride characteristics, price. The gripe in this video is that you can’t access the really good and reasonably priced SL frame without spending way too much on components. Imagine that SL with a set of 454nsw and an R8000 groupo. It would fly and only cost like £6.5k
The downside to building up your own bike is that insurance companies often refuse to insure those bikes. Even if you buy a fully assembled bike and change some parts there are often hard restrictions before it becomes "custom built".
Of course it doesn't really matter if you always keep your bike in a safe place and don't use it for commuting.
Thanks for the vid!
I had this once. Just a little awkward with keeping receipts for things and maybe a phone call.
The Giant SLR Pro 1 does come with a power meter. Explains part of the price difference between Ultegra vs 105 models. Giant branded and GP Lama tested it and thinks it’s a good power meter.
I'm sure GPLama has been critical of the Shimano power meter for unreliable readings, its been a problem for years
Definitely, second-hand is the way to go - loads of decent kit out there for less than £1,000. Upgrading what you have with second=hand kit is great fun and teaches you about the workings of bikes, which adds to your enjoyment of the hobby. When i can buy a brand new Royal Enfield 650 Interceptor motorcycle for just over £6,000 it makes you realise how much profit these bike companies are levering out of the punters- disgusting.
absolutely bang on. get a frameset, buy decent wheels and finishing kit and get someone to put it together. save money and get what you want!!!
Second hand rim brake frame, cobbled together old lightweight kit- UCI limit achievable on a budget, just like it always was... no need to pay thousands to hinder performance with a 8-9kg build.
Under 9kg, in most areas aero will be more important than weight, and that's rider position, then clothing then bike in order of importance for aero.
I think 1100 was for the front wheel only. Plus it comes with shimano powermeter. So it kind of adds up if you where to buy everything at full retail.
Well spotted I think there is still at least £1000 missing still.
@@Mapdec probably carbon finishing kit. But yeah still too expensive. Plus you don't get the stem and handlebar you want.
There's a flip side to this. Ive been looking at getting an alloy endurance frameset for my wife. Having spent ages scouring different brands it's become apparent that the best option is to buy the cheapest Trek Domane AL full bike, rip off the Claris gruppo and wheels and stick some half decent wheels (which I already have) and a 105 groupset. In the sale I can get the whole bike for around £700. A 105-spec Domane AL then for around £1200. Thats what I would have expected to pay pre-C19.
In my experience, whether or not custom building provides a better value comes down to what frames are being considered and who's going to do the labor of assembly. If you're very particular about wanting a best in class frame, whether we're talking about the top 10% of carbon, Steel, or titanium frames, then there's no getting around paying a premium for it. Ebay sellers will charge a premium just like the brands do.
And if you're going to have your LBS build the bike, tack on an extra $300 (in Seattle). Wheels are a commodity now, and there's very little reason in my view to pay more than $1,500 fully built and shipped. If you truly need a better wheel than that, then you should probably be getting them for free. Put another way, if you're not getting them for free, then you probably don't really need a wheelset better than $1500 will get you.
I built my Ti bike because I wanted something unique. I paid wholesale or Craigslist prices for almost every component, and it came out to just over $4k. I can buy a comparable bike from Lynskey for less right now, but only because I'm not demanding the BEST Ti frame. If I wanted only a Moots, Seven, or Davidson, I'd be at $6-7K for my build. So, if you want a top quality and highly sought after frame, there is no cheap path because the brand will crush you on the bundle or the individual frame price, and the secondary market won't be much cheaper for the frame, and you'll have to pay for install. If you can install yourself and find a deal, then sure, there are savings to be had, but that situation doesn't present itself to most riders.
Great post.
Pre built has always been cost effective than building from the ground up.
Really informative response to a very informative post… thanks guys 👊
Figured this out for myself this year when I went to get a new road bike, with a budget of around 20,000 Chinese Yuan (around 2100 pounds). Didn't really like the specs on any of the pre-built bikes that were available here in China so I decided to build up a bike for myself. Ended up getting a custom Ti frame from Waltly (including Ti seatpost and stem and a carbon fork), Ultegra R8000 mechanical shifters and derailleurs, hand built 50mm deep carbon wheels with DT Swiss 350 hubs, PRO aluminum aero handlebar, cable actuated hydraulic brakes, and a spider power meter for the same basic budget, and since I'm somewhat mechanically competent I was able to build the bike up myself. Weight is around 9kg and it's a beautiful, quick, and comfortable bike that I really love. It also has the ability to be upgraded to Di2 and hydraulic brakes later in the future which I will probably do in a year or two.
I did the same thing recently, and I think I'm going to keep doing it this way. If you are price conscious it gives you so much flexibility to find deals, and you can upgrade as you go. I ended up replacing an old and heavily dented CAAD 9 with a Fuji Roubaix Elite frame which was basically on a bankruptcy sale, and picked out the crankset, handlebars, and wheels that I wanted, and finally just now am swapping the old mix of Chorus/Record 10 to Chorus 12 (which seems to be super cheap at the moment). I don't think I could have justified spending $2k+ all at once on a new bike. If you like picking out your own parts, and have a local bike shop you like, I think it is a no brainer. The only "downside" I would say is you have a lot of choices that maybe don't make a big difference so you can spend too much time thinking about things.
Chorus 12 speed is the best bargain out there currently.
I've assembled my last two bikes from framesets up. The two main advantages for me are 1. Being able to tweak components to adjust fit characteristics such as bar width and stem length and 2. Specifying componentry such as crank length and chainset size
Yes, well said! For me it would be literally useless to buy any „mail order bike“ like canyon e.g., because i definitely need 175 mm cranks and they donˋt allow to customize the crank length, which i find ludicrous! I went for custom builds for three of my four bikes and this is the best you can do!
Interesting you have Giant website up. Last year I bought a tcr sl frame for $2,900 new. Pieced together Dura ace components, Farsport wheels. Basically have a pro caliber bike for half the price.
All my CX bikes are custom built. Best way to save money if your willing to work on getting desired parts for the bike right way. Plus you know how it is built up which makes easier how to do basic maintenance later. Plus a sense of pride that you built your bike up and more willing to take care of it.
Any recommendations for an alloy CX frameset to build something up? Most manufacturers have stopped making them. Second hand bikes with the features I want (disc, flat mount, thru axles F/R, internal routing, BSA BB, no weird standards) are pretty rare in the UK.
@@TheThedynamitekid based in Socal so do not know the international smaller brands for frame makers. A lot of the alloy frames are more entry level so more relaxed geo than the higher end. There are high end alloy frames which race geo. Some alloy frames have carbon seatstays. Some frames will be supper stiff race only or more give for longer rides. My alloy frames were canti till the new one with mech post mount disc this past winter. If you can find jamis nova as it was in the period of transition form canti to disc so later models will have disc. Then if a you can find a redline conquest a very good alloy cx bike from a couple decades ago as they ahead of time with having disc and canti possible. There could be other frame makers like that way ahead the big makers. Cannondale alloy cadd cx frames will sometimes ship with BB adaptor sleeve to convert to BSA. Some of the major frame makers may do that as well. Then are some mail order companys to look up. Trouble with older frames will be tire clearance as older frames may set to CX uci race standards so no more then 35mm or if lucky up to 40mm. Best advice look around and ask questions before purchase. Try bike shops as they may be sitting on frames in storage their having trouble selling but brand new.
Would you realy rate the TCR frame low average? I mean it rides very well compared to other medium priced frames in my eyes.
The Pro and SL are great for money. Suit a lot of people.
@@Mapdecyou’ve ignored the question,
It’s a big topic that’s not going to get answered in a comment. There are a lot of excellent frames out there for a % more money that out perform in one characteristic or another.
@@Mapdec 👍 thanks for the response. I just wouldn't tag this as mediocre so there should be more discussion when making bold statements.
@@17cream there are a lot of vids on the channel that will help you validate. Mediocre just means medium. The TCR is the ultimate medium bike. It doesn’t excel or underperform in any one area. It’s a peak of the normal distribution, the epitome of average. It a Toyota Corolla. The best seller with the fewest objectionable qualities. Don’t get upset about it.
I have built my last 3 bikes. This allows more customisation of bars, wheels, saddle and tires. And still saved $1000s of dollars doing it this way. I personally would never buy a full bike from a store anymore!
Would like to hear more about aluminium frames. They are a much more sensible choice for budget conscious people, but i do feel there are little options from the big brands, in part because often they are always offered as full bikes only. Apart from the CAAD13, the Allez Sprint, the Emonda ALR, what are other good alu frames to consider? I think the BMC Alr Is sold as a complete bike only, that’s a shame.
Ridley make one. I have a vid lined up.
Always bought by bikes from the frame up, mainly new stuff, some carried over, its part of the enjoyment. Custom handbuilt wheels are also the way to go, specced to how you want rather than the factory telling you what you want.
You make some good points, but the TCR Advanced frame is the same as the Advanced Pro. They both use the Advanced-Grade Composite; the SL uses Advanced SL-Grade Composite, which is stiffer. Some say too-stiff. The only difference between the Advanced and Advanced Pro is oversized steerer on the pro, which actually makes the ‘lower tier’ Advanced frameset a great buy with the adaptable 11/8 carbon steerer. I’ve seen no record of anyone saying the non-SL TCRs are noodly. All reports have been that they perform very well in terms of stiffness.
This is covered lower in the comments. Quickly. The Pro has the power core BB, and it does make a difference in race situations. Accelerating, sprinting etc.
@@Mapdec The Advanced has the same Powercore BB.
@@Mapdec The frame is the exact same… which means the BB is as well.
I would recommend a young racer buys the Advanced complete with 105 and upgrades the wheels. That’s a great platform for the future.
@@Mapdec Same power core bb in Advanced version. Only difference i sterrer
Can I add that rim isn't dead? I got a new Canyon ultimate cf sl 8 for $2400 cause my '06 lemond cracked. Already had some mercury S5 wheels and I instantly doubled my inventory on groupset (R8000 Ultegra) since that comes stock on the canyon and I previously had this on my Lemond. The Canyon Ultimate Rim is the absolute lightest road bike for the money.
This morning I ordered a Cannondale Optimo 4 for $1000. I bought it just for the frame. I have a 105 groupset and some carbon wheels laying around. The problem is the lack of cheap frames from major manufacturers. Once I rebuild it I'm sure I can get it to at least 7kg.
Nice. That’s a pretty good frame.
I noticed a growing disconnect between prices of complete bikes and the bike you’d have by shopping around a bit and buying a frame and components separately, at least here in Canada, ànd particularly at the higher end. Manufacturers seemed to take advantage of the post Covid inflation conditions. Many of the developing trends in the industry seem counter to the idea of growing revenues by getting more bums in saddles versus maximizing profits from an already existing pool of riders.
You confirmed all my suspicions. Unless a prebuilt bike is heavily discounted say at an end of year sale you’re better off building the bike from components. Cheers.
Upgraded a new Specialized with S-works frame during covid that had fairly low grade components to higher than best-in-class S-works off-the-shelf standard (except Ultegra Di2 12 speed vs the "old" DuraAce Di2 which I still consider a step up) and saved almost 2.5K USD - before selling the left over components. However, was hell and took months to source the correct parts. Also, would not recommend to anyone who does not know cycle components very well. Lots of pitfalls. I almost stumbled with the wheel set but found an excellent solution.
I thought this was well known among bike builders and lbs. I was baffled about the crap wheels entry level bikes have. I tried to stop my friends wasting money on a full bike, but they say they tried it and felt amazing.
It's useless to convince someone that has no knowledge abour bike parts because they think its a whole package and they want it to pay once and be done with it.
I'm glad you looked this through and shared it. There are some very odd pricing choices in the market right now since it seems there are people willing to just open up their bank accounts and pay.
A couple of thoughts:
- Anyone cross shopping for a built bike with tiers like this should do what you did. Look up what the components you like cost and compare to the build and as-built price. I've seen some where it made economic sense to buy the lower end one and go out and buy the part you wanted and put it on right away. Wasteful.
- You didn't mention cost of assembly. For those of us able to do most or all of the work, it's fun and cost free (we'll ignore the tool collection as a sunk cost 🙂) But I'm guessing that around here I'd get charged at least $400 for a full build and that has to be factored in. (or it is an implied cost of paying closer to list price at the LBS doing the work - nothing wrong with that but has to be considered)
- For value engineering when you can do a lot of the mechanical yourself, the used market is a fantastic opportunity. You talked about it for wheels and I agree. But framesets, groupsets and more can be found too once you are going to that level. Not necessarily the latest-and-greatest but dang fine for half the price.
Great post. Thank you.
How big is the youth/junior race bike market?
I don’t know. It’s defo a big part of our service work. It’s mostly supported by parents
Hmmm, I wish one could actually get decent framesets or more noticably groupsets, here in South Africa. It becomes even more problematic when you start wanting specific crank lengths and gearing combos - basiclly impossible to find the 170mm 52/36 105 cranks I'd like without ordering especially from Shimano through a dealer - ie: any hope of a bargain out the window. Most people on a budget here end up building with second hand gear (mostly quite dated). Maybe I'm just not connected enough??
I’m 82 yo and have built up 2 doz bikes over the years. I have a non average body and have found that I need a custom built frame - steel or ti. Though my preference is steel. I mix and match Ultegra w Dura Ace. I close my eyes and don’t look at the $$$. I just want the bike to “work”. Which means 24x40 w 11x36. Sounds nuts. Right? I love climbing and go to the East Sierras in Calif to have some fun. But I challenge you to tell me the 40 - 11 is too low. But that’s my cruising combo that you could never get off the shelf. White Industries to the rescue - crank, rings, hubs.
I am starting to see inventory stacking up in bike shops here in the Washington DC area. Expect to see promotional pricing shortly. Also, a bike build up process gives you the decision power to pick where you want to spend the big money, versus value engineering. Example, someone may choose to go 105 on the groupset and pour the money into good wheels. This is more likely to help win races than to buy a Dura Ace group and cheap wheels...
Yes. Totally. Imagine that SL frame with a fast set of wheels and a R7000 groupo. It would fly! And still be cheaper than the AXS laden models below.
Insane prices, I've seen the highest spec TCR SL disc in durace on sale here in the Philippines from online sellers, going for 315,900 php basically 4,500 pounds in direct conversion. Insane to see how much they mark these prices up.
What do you think of the Merida bike brand for value? Is it difficult to get a Merida frame?
I have never tried and I actually haven’t seen one for a while.
Your next project 😁
Best way to buy off the peg is last year's model at a fat discount. That's a bit disrupted at the moment but am expecting some great deals next year. This year's latest and greatest is next year's bargain bin option....
What about the Cannondale supersix Evo off sigma sports for £2199…?
SuperSix Evo for the WIN!!!
If you're patient and willing to look at other brands then pre-built bikes can be much more competitive (also true of desktop PCs incidentally). Lynskey's been selling a Ti bike with Rival 2x12 for $2950, and over the winter sweetened the deal further by tossing in their Ti stem and seatpost.
Now, in fairness, that build comes with an unimpressive wheelset, and the frameset was going for ~1000 a few months ago; at which point a self built mechanical version might save you a few hundred.
Your points about both aluminum and going used are spot on. I picked up a 2014 trek madone AL with (mostly) ultegra for $500, and it's been great to me.
Any positives with Orro bikes? I like the fact they’re a UK company but would be interesting to see your thoughts
Posting a short later today.
I always buy a frame and then build it up myself. Albeit my bikes are more steel and all road/gravel and retro (1960’s). If your looking for value and have the time and experience to build from scratch then you get what you want and not what the manufacturers want you to buy. It seems that particularly at the top end the price vs value doesn’t seem to stack up in the face of it.
I have a 10 year old Cervelo R5 and have been thinking of replacing the aluminium
Kysrium Elite wheels, are the Cadex (rim) wheels a worthwhile expenditure?
Based purely on cost, the free availability of parts I would say not. They look remarkably similar to Winsapce and Superteam wheels. Reynolds are making some nice carbon rim brake wheels with nice staandard parts.
@@Mapdec many thanks for that. I’d be able get them through the cycle-to-work scheme so potentially up to 40% discount .
Custom build also gets you the right finishing kit without extra cost - right stem, bars, saddle, crank length.
Andbas daft as it sounds - the right colour of parts!
I had an all black frame, fitted white bar tape and a white saddle. Looked excellent. The stock bike had black tape and saddle, just looked a bit dull.
Slightly unrelated, but is there any wheel brand(s) that you would consider top tier like Time for carbon frames?
Big big subject. Top end. Faucon, maybe Princeton. Benchmark wheels for me are the FFWD Ryot. Heavy duty, Pacenti. Aero, Zipp NSW. Blending any of those is where things get blurry
You left out the back wheel and the power meter? Kinda closes the gap eh? I have always built my bikes since the eighties but got a complete SL0 bike (2022 but same as 2023) on sale for 7,800
There is a follow up vid after a call from Giant.
Ridiculous the prices. I have ordered a Rose Pro SL 105 Rimbrake. Costs just 1099 euros in the sale.
Wish rose would start trading in the UK again 🤞
Giant TCR frame is average ?
Yes. Better than the budget and Chinese brands, nowhere near things like Look, Pinarello, Time, etc. It’s the biggest brand in the world for a reason.
@@Mapdec thanks for the reply. Did you mean for build quality or weight/stiffness/performance ?
Lol I got access to a sale from a major bike brand, a $11000 CDN bike on sale for $5500 CDN.. di2 durace, hi mod frame... the di2 groupset is $3000+ CDN retail
I'm glad you bring that point up.
Recently I discovered the same. Especially in the high budget segment it doesn't make any sense to buy a complete bike.
And this also applies to Gravel and MTB.
For example: I bought the cheapest model of the Scott Addict Gravel , sold all the parts and now I'm building it up with a fully custom wheels, new Force Groupset (for less then 1400€), Carbon Cockpit and every bling like titan bolts etc. - the result will be much more boutique and still cheaper then Scott's offered model with the old Force.
I planned some some Bikes for fun and most of the time it got cheaper. Just think about what difference a custom wheelset can make. And most importantly you can buy the parts like crank and bar in the size you need.
When building the bike yourself, you should take into account the hours spent in research, sourcing parts, building it up, investment into tools and a workplace. It‘s a hobby for the most of us, but it still comes with the complete bike … buying the raw materials of any assembled product is probably cheaper, you should do this calculation for a pair of jeans 😅
True. In this vid we used the retail prices rather than speculate on the B2B prices.
Takes skills and knowledge to do it right.
Good analysis. I've done a few bike builds for myself. I tended to stick too long and hard on a specific bike frame and specific components. Sometimes other frames and components come out as a better solution. Of course price and availability is the most important reasons why I went for what I ended with. Mixing individual components with others ones in the range was another way to finish things off (ie Rival 1 shifters with Rival 22 rear derailleur).
Did you include shop labor in this or is it trivial in the overall cost? I didn’t hear a number in the video.
It’s only 3-4 hours to build a new bike, max.
What's your opinion on the van rysel bikes from Decathlon. I was looking at the NCR CF SRAM RIVAL 12s ETAP AXS for just 2400 euros in my country. Don't know how the frame itself compares to the big brands.
I had a quick look at them at the 312. Nothing interesting. Why would you buy a bike where the groupset is the bulk of the price? How good are you expecting it to be?
@@Mapdec not sure what other viable option I have in the 2000-2500 euros price range except from canyon endurace cf 8 (ultegra, mechanical),which is never in stock. Or merida scultura endurance 5000 (with non series crank)
@@Mapdec to be honest I'm just a rider who is passionate about staying fit and pushing my limits, not planning on ever competing. I've had an older Alu road bike for 10 years now and the local second hand market rarely has the combination of my size and specs I want
Cool. Get a frame your mega comfortable on, that’s easy and fun to handle and inspires you to ride. A rival AXS groupset won’t do any of that.
@@Mapdec I get the frame part, but is there something wrong with rival etap?
Does the same apply now in MTB? It was always the case that it was cheaper to buy a whole bike.
MTB is a whole other game. You gotta be really shrewd on weird OEM parts that look more than they are.
There are some bargains to be had out there look at the yet to be released Cannondale Super Six Evo 2 that will be releasing in December I feel like at that price of 5500 dollars for the entire bike it is a bargain. Considering what you are getting its one of the few bikes out there that does not seem to be overpriced and full of fluff parts that you want to bin right off the bat. What do you think?
I just had a look. It’s £6500 here. Those hollowgram wheels will have you hated everywhere you go. Internal alu nipples, propriety formula spokes. They will ride ok but prepare for some faff if you snap spokes.
@@Mapdec Interesting to hear about the Hologram wheels. I have other wheels so those are sealable I feel like the rest of the package is not bad for the price.
Yes, Sir!!
Custom, ( find your own parts ) is the way to go.
I currently desire a top end Colnago. But I sure as hell WILL not spend $17,000. Simple math makes it a no Brainer. Gather your parts at "real world" prices. Catalog and Manufacturer prices have huge profit margins written in. There are plenty of " middle men ", that will sacrifice some profit to make a sale. I hope many people see this video. Helping the average Joe and his family is Golden.
The groupset prices are starting to fall while full bikes discounts lag, making builds viable. Be I threshing to see if the full bike prices continue to drop while components level, rebalancing this market, and the choice build / buy.
Which Reynolds? I watch most of your videos but dont recall you mentioning Reynolds?
We discussed the AR41 X in the Basso vid
The cadex wheel price is only for the front wheel.. no rear, and the dura ace crank that comes with it is shimano is fc-9200p power meter crank 😅
Still a lot of money missing.
@@Mapdec yeah but you are sort of lying in the video.
It wasn’t intended.
Just did a quick look out of curiosity, since im shopping now. I really don't want to piece together a bike. But...
SuperSix Evo: $13,500
Frame: $4500
Sram Red: $2700
Wheel set (estimated, only found the front): $2300
$13,500-$9500=$4000 for touch points and odds and ends. 🤔
Mental. Even the frame at £4500 is outrageous. A time ADH or LOOK blade is still less than that. I
It's like Giant is holding upgraded components for ransom. It's not like it used to be when there were fewer proprietary standards popping up. Used to be able to hang older components on the new frame.
Realised this years ago. Always deals on groupsets. And then pick your own wheels. Job done.
I wouldn't really agree, beyond the premise that buying a anything new is usually a rip off.
If you're not particular, or already know you want to swap out particular parts, there's a lot of good used bikes from people who bought them with false aspirations.
If you don't want used, and truly know what you want, then buying new is a good deal, because bike manu's get such deep discount on speccing parts, that the mark up for buying the "combo meal" is really tight. If you really know what you want, find the right bike, get them to order it from the distro, ask them to swap out wheels, handlebars, etc right from the get go. A good shop will either write off the extra parts, or you can at least resell them as brand new.
I did the same with my 795 blade RS. The only SRAM option was 13k, With Red and Corima MCC wheels. I got it down to half the price with a SRAM force groupset, using my own Corima WS black wheels. The only pre-built bike that was sensible was an ultegra di2 build but then you get a bland black frame. I'm not going at a funeral when I ride my bike, so I went the custom build route and I think it was the best choice. I would probably go down the same route if I got a new gravel bike
Enjoyed your video and you are 100% bang on. I live in Canada and last year(2022) was looking to upgrade from my kona rove bike which had a claris groupset. I had paid $800 Canadian for mine in 2019. Well I was shocked that all the bikes in the $1,500 range all ran claris groupsets(the only benefit was a carbon fork). I was acquainted with Merlin through some previous purchases and they were retailing a gravel bike with carbon forks and a tiagara groupset for $1,100 canadian and $300 for shipping, so i took a chance and so far it feels like a steady performer for $1,400. The cycling club here had a pair of carbon wheels (10 speed hub) for $500 so I purchased those and I have to tell you I'm loving this bike. I'm no all star and its just for group rides but in the end I do believe I saved myself about $500 to $1,000 over what was being retailed around here.(Giant, Trek, Specialized). 👍👍👍
Awesome. Well done.
I’m pretty sure the advanced and advanced pro are the same frame other than the oversized steerer- correct me if I’m wrong?
See the next vid published yesterday.
no is not the same ...
The residual is the dentist tax. Aint no dentist got time for a custom build.
I’ve built my last two bikes by buying the parts as they go on offer. It takes times, but you get a better quality bike and one which is unique. :)
Cycling has become a lifestyle sport, lots of people with money who equate higher cost with more performance and more desirable. Custom building is something they wouldn’t consider, too much hassle. Building and maintaining my own bikes is integral to my love of cycling.
I know quite a handful of financially-loaded riders who have one or more bespoke frames, one of them even has at least ten such bikes now. Frame-up builds are usually for those that already know what they want for their bikes.
That's exactly what I did at home when I got my first ever frameset I bought with my own money and boy, did it felt so good. A bike that was ridden AND built by the same person.
The cadex wheel for 1100 is front only 🤦♂️
Well spotted. Still a lot of money missing
Most riders will not build their own bikes and will not go through the trouble, simple though it is, of getting their local shop to build for them. The idea of upgrading as you go along also only works sometimes....if you crash the bike, your hand may be forced. If you shop around, you can find great values on used bikes, sometimes you can buy a two year old bike for the price of a new groupset alone. In the USA, there were a lot of people who bought high end bikes during the Covid era and didn't ride them much.
What would you say is the best race frameset for less than £2k?
Umm. Not many brands offer a race frame set at that price. You can’t buy an SL7 frame that is not an S-Works for example. So. Cinelli Superstar, bloody stiff and quite light. Giant TCR Pro, as above. BMC TeamMachine SLR just about makes it. Don’t rule out Alu frames if you can find a good one like the anodised caad12. Stiffness will be more important to racing Crit and tracks than weight. For longer road races in hills that equation might shift.
Labour costs ?
I bought my advanced SL TCR for $1k. Even came with the Sram Red mechanical groupo at the time second hand. I spent $1k on wheels and it is still a dream to this day. I can't fathom spending more money on a lower tier frame. I'm afraid my next frame will have to be Chinese. I switched to Di2 because of the 11 speed chain line issues I was having with the Sram Red on my TCR and it rides better. Need a cheap frame to throw my leftover lightweight Red 10 speed mechanical groupset for a secondary bike, but everything is too expensive still and then there is the issue of finding 10 speed parts
Thanks for this educational video. Will be building a new frameset from scratch instead of purchasing a complete bike.
I've built up a few bikes, I always find it cheaper. I built a Van Rysel rim brake bike with force 1x11 sub 7kg for less than £1500, all new but sale parts. My most recent build is a Mondraker Chrono xc bike with Rockshox raceday ultimate and xt groupset for about £3.5k. a lot less than what it would have cost to buy as a pre built. I've just picked up a force axs disc geoupset for £700(not including cassette or chainset) ready to upgrade another bike I have.
By buying when deals present themselves you're also closer to what the parts actually cost shops. So the price gap the host calculate here is indeed much larger.
New cyclist aren't starting road cycling. They used to go into a bike shop, expecting a reasonable price for a nice looking bike and get too confused and blown away by the prices. They won't buy second hand as they don't know what is value. As such it's stalled the second hand market. The bike industry got greedy and the new generation isn't coming through. Too much cycling BS marketing driving the industry into products that are rubbish with no future. It's going to be a shit few years for the bike industry.
Truth in this comment. The door has been left wide open for Ribble, Dolan and Canyon.
My strategy was to search Trek dealers nationwide (USA) for the top spec Fuel MTB that was on the showroom floor but two years old and offer 30% under retail. Just did the same thing two weeks ago for a showroom 2022 Giant Revolt Advanced Pro 1 gravel bike. I think its about timing and finding a dealer that wants to move a bike that's been sitting there a couple years. Lots of phone calls.
There is always the option of buying a slightly used bike at a massively reduced price. Or used components for that matter. I just sold some perfectly good Ultegra brakes for $60. As good as new - I just didn't need them any more. I often buy used as well as sell.
I know. Maybe you can remember being 18 and getting your first race bike that’s not a hand me down. It’s a big day.
just recently built a tcr sl rim brake version with bargain sram force groupset and winspace wheels, giant pre built wheels are obvious rip-offs, and the frame for the new color has increased price, unbelievable, but lucky me i got another bargain on a second hand sl frame for much less money, i am really happy about this build
I bet. Well done.
Do you find the SL is noticeable over the advanced
It's a bit like cars. Cheap cars don't make much money as you have to build down to minimal profit. However, go up the scale and people are willing to pay a premium if they think they're getting a premium product, which is what covers the manufacturer's r&d, marketing etc.
If you are reading this. I want to upgrade my Pr-2 wheels on my 2022 Contend, because they are giving out (spokes bent, crackling sounds). I want to buy aluminium set up to 500€. What in god's world should I pick. DT Swiss 1600, Hunt 4 Seasons, Fulcrum 5 DB, Scribe Race D? I want something that is a good upgrade to my stocks. I am recreational road cyclist, I do not compete much. I have a disc, tubeless setup, 105 group. I want something that will put a breath of fresh air into my bicycle, but I am not hunting every second on Strava. I just like a good cardio workout.
The Fulcrums are great. Easy to service and repair. Good hubs, quality build. You could also go custom. Mavic Open Pro rims on Shimano Ultegra Hubs would hit that budget
@@Mapdec Thanks for a fast reply. :)
The difference between the Advanced Pro 2 and 1 other than the groupset is that you get a power meter with the Ultegra version
Whilst I agree it’s best to build at the current time. However a tcr and a tcr pro being mediocre frames? They CONSTANTLY get best bike of the year and best value race bike of the year. And as for the difference in them both- the fork. That’s it the fork. One uses bigger bearings than the other so the frame is the same and I can guarantee it’s not flexy in any way
Feature of the pro is the BB and steerer tune. What’s wrong with a mediocre frame? You make it sound like a bad thing. They are the epitome of the middle ground brand. The biggest brand in the world selling bikes that appeal to the broadest audience. It’s peak of a distribution curve stuff. Below Giant is all the budget brands and Chinese stuff, above Giant are the high quality premium brands. Giant offers enough quality and enough performance for the majority of people. It’s a bit like buying Heinz ketchup.
@@Mapdec bb is the same. If you buy a pro and advanced frame the literal difference is the fork and bearings. And it wins plenty of tests to be just mediocre :)
@@gregkane8635 go take a look. The Pro advertises the Powercore BB and Overdrive 2 system specify to stiffen the frame. It’s right there.
@@Mapdec ask a giant dealer - it’s the exact same frame 🤷♂️ same carbon layup same fibres - I’ve had both an advanced and a pro and have asked when buying what the differences are
@@Mapdec powercore is advertised on the sl and not the pro from what I can see - the sl2 rims have a different freehub aswell and are over 100g heavier than slr1 not a lot really but it’s there :) I think the slr1 freehub is a dt Swiss rebrand
Reminiscent of the computer market many years ago when it was cheaper to buy quality branded parts and assemble them yourself as it was so much cheaper, the PC manufacturers did eventually wise up and substantually drop their prices, but no sign of that as yet for pre-built bike prices?
There’s a lot of misinformation in this video unfortunately-
1. The TCR advanced and the advanced pro actually come with the exact same frame. Only difference is in the fork where the former comes with a normal sized steerer and the latter comes with an oversized OD2 steerer. So in essence, the base advanced version is actually a banger of a deal.
2. The price of cadex wheel that you quoted was just for the front! The entire wheelset will set you back close to £2,500
3. Giant also equip the SL bikes with full carbon components i.e., SLR saddle, bar/stem and a 9200 Shimano power meter.
Noted on the wheelset. They are not worth £2.5k though.
The Pro frame has the powercore BB and the Overdrive2 steerer to stiffen the frameset. It’s right there in the spec.
Prices still don’t add up to a value added package.
@@Mapdec ALL TCRs come with the powercore BB be it the advanced, advanced pro or the advanced SL.
@@Mapdec In the road cycling space absolutely nothing is worth what it’s quoted at. Agreed.
I figured this outa while ago. Its best to pick each part so that you get what you want and choose your frame. I think the companies that offer this type of option will grow. If you add custom paint they will do even better.
Just got back into biking after 25 years off the bike, back injury in my RAF day's, back then mid 80/90s i could get a hand built frame 753 etc with full durace etc for about £3000 ,I've just purchased a trek domane for £2900,full ultegra etc, im very impressed with the bike, its taken me months of looking and researching though, and finding a good bike shop.things have changed a lot though,
I bet that was quite a journey.
@@Mapdec indeed
You are absolutely right, when you showed the Advanced Pro Disc 2, with Shimano 105 mechanical @£3299, then showed the Advanced Pro Disc1 with Shimano Ultegra mechanical @ £4599, I immediately Thought, that's £1300 more expensive, that can't be right😮
Now, I don't know the exact price of the Shimano Groupsets, but I would bet good money that the Ultegra isn't £1300 more expensive than the 105 Groupset - so a massive rip off☹🤬
I think you are right to breakdown the costs of each part and look at buying the parts separately, to work out how much is parts and how much is for the cost to build and how much is just pure profit (not saying they shouldn't make a profit, but don't be greedy)
What I don't understand is that larger manufacturers, such as Giant must be buying the groupsets at much less than Joe Bloggs can because they buy in huge quantities, so new bike prices should be much more competitive and they wonder why they are struggling to sell new bikes.....
Another great video, thanks for sharing👍
🙏
You're right on this. I started year ago and it had to be 1st (and only one) bike upgrade project. Result was 2nd bike built from pieces May this year. Full Ultegra mechanical, carbon frame and carbon wheels. 7.3 kilos of joy, "combat ready". :D
I was in a Giant shop at the weekend...Propel with Sram electronic groupset and SL1 wheels for 4600.....what is going on with their website.....?! 😂
I can absolutely second the conclusion. I spend only 2/3 of the price through building my bike up from a frameset.
Here in south Korea Giant don’t even offer the option of a frame-set only. You get what you’re given by them and that’s it. Giant aren’t as good value as they once were! I bought a Revolt recently and I sometimes stare at it and think, what did I pay 4k for. A carbon frame and Sram Rival explr. Everything else is worthless on it.
For god sakes you just gave away the secret sauce, now the manufactures are going to jack the frame prices up😂 good one. I just bout a 2015 time izon, what a great bike that is and so much fun building it.
I'm still trying to find a Look optimum frame (in France) after your previous video...
Apparently more stock due in September
Interesting analysis. Although you forgot to mention the powermeter on the Ultegra spec level bike and the fact that the page you referred to listed the front wheel only (listed price of the wheelset is just under 3K) .
Noted. It wasn’t intentional. No way a rear wheel is £2k. Made up prices.
Don’t agree with the advice on the Giant frame levels. The Advanced and the Advanced pro are the same frame, only the fork is a different grade of carbon with larger diameter steerer. The Advanced is very capable to race on, great frame set.