Major issues with the shaper origin
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- Опубліковано 25 січ 2024
- I've gone back and forth about posting this video of my trouble with the shaper origin, ultimately I decided to post it because I figured it could be helpful for others having similar issues. I'm sure it's more of a user error thing than the actual unit but I'm struggling big time.
- Фільми й анімація
Couple questions for ya...
1. Did you cut your top after the table was completely assembled? I ask, because with large panels like that you sometimes need to climb on top of your work piece to reach your cuts. That way you won't have to reorient the machine which can cause errors in cuts.
2. Did you use offsets to sneak up on cuts? Many of the headaches you mention can be avoided by using offsets to get the desired outcome.
3. Did you tape your entire work surface then make your cuts, or did you retape as you went? On large panels like that what I like to do is get just enough tape down to be able to place my design, then rescan with tape in non-cut areas to avoid cutting through the tape as much as possible.
I empathize with you. Knowing what to expect with the S.O. and achieving those results are two totally different things. Don't blame the machine, keep practicing. You'll figure it out
Yes I cut the top completely assembled and worked my way around the edge of the table, I didn't climb on top of the table while cutting
Yes I used offsets
I taped the entire work station and then scanned and cut
I’m not blatantly defending shaper but I will tell you about my experience. For the first 6-8 months of using mine I got very frustrated as I had errors quite often and aborted cuts and while I didn’t see the inaccuracy you did I often had wavy edges on things that shouldn’t. I soldiered through thinking I was hitting the limitations of the tool or something. Finally completely frustrated as you seem I posted my issues in the shaper forum along with the error code. I got a lot of helpful feedback from users but still couldn’t get through a cut without some issue.
Shaper support messaged me and asked me for more detail. After answering their questions they sent me a brand new bit (to remove that from the equation) and a test file with specific instructions on how to proceed to cut it. I did, got the error and saw the inconsistency in my cut and sent photos as requested. Two days later I had a brand new unit and shipped mine back in the box the new one came in.
Moral of the story to me was that their customer service was some of the best I’ve had and they had a plan and procedure to troubleshoot issues. My only regret was posting on the forums in frustration rather than opening a support ticket directly. I would have been up and running much sooner.
Since the new one arrived it has become a regular tool in my shop and I’ve used it countless times including building my own workbench/assembly table with over 80 MFT style 20mm dog holes and so far I have yet to find any issues with those holes being square and true.
That said, the tool isn’t magic (close) and some planning and forethought is necessary as with any operation. I purchased mine with the workstation which did clue me into what the tool needs to “see” in front of it to work correctly and I planned my cuts on the workbench accordingly, adding and scanning new tape before losing too much of the old, etc.
The delaminating of the tape does suck sometimes.
And where are you getting Shaper Tape for $15?!? It’s $22 everywhere I look. There is a third party making compatible vinyl tape called “Wonder Tape” but I have no experience with it.
I'm considering the Origin and soaking up loads of these videos, so thankyou for posting. And as someone who has had projects go fubar near the finish line... I feel your pain :[
My impression so far, is that Origin is great for fancy joinery and inlays, but for hogging out a lot of material in straight lines for tracks & such... a regular 1/2" router with clamped straight-edges is still the way to go. Holes & shovels as they say.
You're correct, it's a valuable tool and it can really shine for certain projects! I'm just hoping people can avoid some of the mistakes I've made
Try cutting the dados from left to right with the tape in front of the shaper. This way you will not be cutting through the tape. If the tape doesn't stick well to the laminate, try putting down painter's tape with the shaper tape on the painter's tape. Yes, the tape is expensive, but make sure you use enough tape. Approach the project in segments, you're cutting over a large area, focus on setting up for one or two cuts at a time. Good Luck.
Try running your tape right/left to the position of the camera/scan. For me Shaper Origin has been one of the best tool additions to the shop. An amazing/accurate tool!
Appreciate the advice ill give it a try! I know its capable of brilliance, i just need to work out the kinks
I also use it a lot and it is precise like hell. I created the holes for a big Mft table and it is perfect. Even more square than the Festool holes on the mft. This thing is really good. Maybe it is the light situation? Seems that the table reflects a lot? More light from the side maybe? And yes don’t rotate the machine…
I feel your pain... today was my first day using the shaper origin myself. Ironically, i was doing an oufeed table myself and had similar issues. A couple of things that i fugured out as i was using that might help. First, even though i was using dust collection i experienced the shaper losing connection with the tape like you did and got a lot of chatter. What i found was the sawdust on the top of the table was causing the issue. I found that if i went slow and kept the dust off i had a lot less issues. Honestly i was about to chunk the machine through the wall until i figured that out. I had zero issues with the width of cut like you did, i did however notice that it was cutting slightly smaller than i wanted but was able to fix with an offset cut. My top was black formica like yours and wonder if the dominos blended in with the background and was giving me issues like yours. Long story short i can attest to your frustration, but believe the tool has tremendous potential.
I'm glad I'm not the only one with issues, super frustrating... Ill have to try moving at a slower speed next time! Thanks for your input
@@BuiltKnotBought you prolly know this but I didn't... Don't go too slow or you can burn your bits up. I thought burning was cuz I was moving too fast so I was making the problem worse by slowing down even more. If you want to go slow, turn the router speed way down.
@@Ko3n3k33 appreciate the advice 👍
I've found that if you have ANY dust build up on the tape, shaper won't be able to read it and the tape health meter on the screen will indicate not enough tape. Just pause and blow or sweep the dust away and it's back to full black.
I'll keep an eye out for dust build up
Tape does not stick well to laminate. If the origin even slightly moves the tape, it will no longer recognize the work surface. This may explain why the groves get wider. I would advise also clocking all of the tape 90 degrees so that it runs in the direction that you are moving the Origin. When the origin moves in the same direction as the tape it may move up on top of some pieces but it does not cross 90 degrees to the tape. This will decrease the cance of tearing the tape. ALSO. Move away from your starting point so that you do not damage the tape before you get to where you are going. Do not start 3 feet away and make your way back toward and through the damaged tape. If necessary add more tape and use the "Add to Scan Work Surface function.
Appreciate the advice, I'll have to try staying in the same direction!
I also have an Orign some days ago. When coming from traditional CNC (like me) it really feals that lot of basic features are missing. Especially the create tools are so basic, it's really frustrating. With the basic feature it has it works great but i only have done very small projects on the workbench. When doing large projects i think you need to work from bottom to top and from left to right (or right to left). Working from top to bottom is a mistake because you will pass dominio tape which you have already passed by milling. If you need to go to the very top of the part you will need to place some domino take outside of the part to assure visible dominos all the time. When having long slots then best is to place the domino tape along the slot. Otherwise i would recommend to place new domino tape and perform new scan. Good luck.
I've came to similar conclusions as far as work flow with the Domino.
Overall I'm pretty disappointed in it
ideally you put your tape not where you cut but where the machine looks at. If you do intense cutting work, you have to clean the table from time to time and keep an eye on the symbol in the top right of the screen, which indicates if the origin can read enough tape. When covererd with dirt oder cut throught you just loose reference points. If you ever find you dont have enough left you can add new tape and add a new scan to the existing scan.
Good tip!
Ouch, sorry to witness your troubles. Could you have picked up enough grit from the laminate under the base of the shaper to cause the abrasion of the tape? My first major shaper project was to cut a large number of fairly intricate pattern parts out of six sheets of four by eight ply and the results were amazing. I had at the most 1/32 of dimensional error over 8 feet. Tape management was problematic but I found that running all the cuts first with an engraving bit allowed me to identify trouble spots, add tape where needed and do an add on scan. Keeping the surface dust free was also super important.
That too hear you had success 👍 I'll have to try your method with the engraving bit next time
In my opinion, what you're trying to do in routing the channels in your outfeed table top is not really the strength of the Shaper Origin. As you said, it relies totally on the tape (or Workstation or Plate) dominoes to know where it is and guide the cuts it is making. So, yes, if you cut through the tape, tape moves, or your project piece moves in any way relative to the initial scan of the tape, the Origin will lose track of where it is and will either stop the cut (in the "best") case or make an inaccurate cut. That isn't a flaw in the Shaper Origin, it is how it is designed and what makes it accurate (when set up well) down to a couple of thousandths' of an inch. I've had frustrations at times using mine (including just a couple of days ago), usually because I thought I had my workpiece really secured, but as I was cutting, it moved, causing the Origin to cut inaccurately. I've had similar problems to yours also when I cut through the tape, causing the Origin to lose track of where it is. Like any tool, learning to use it really well take some time. After having mine for a couple of years, I still make mistakes, usually now in how I set up the workpiece - making sure I secure the piece properly so it can't move, making sure my passes aren't too deep, and so on. It also has limitations, like any tool, but it has also allowed me to do some things (like inlays and complicated joinery) that I wouldn't ever have tried without it.
Id have to agree that this is not the strength of the tool, ive had good results cutting out smal precise parts, but not as good of luck with larger projects
Sorry to hear about your negative experience with the Shaper Origin. Just like any tool, the Shaper has its strengths and weaknesses. And over the last 50 years of woodworking, I’ve ruined some projects that would certainly make your table small in comparison. I use my Shapers (yes I bought a second one for my grandson to use) primarily limited to the Shaper Work Station and Plate, although I have made signs and floor inlays. I guess hindsight is good, but a simple router and guide might have been your best solution to make the grooves. I do agree with you that using Shaper tape can be annoying, that’s one area that I’m sure they’ll improve. Anyway, don’t get discouraged, woodworking is one of my three greatest blessings in life!!
I appreciate the comment. I've learned a lot since this mistake and got a ton of valuable feedback on using the shaper origin. I'm glad to hear you've had success with it. I'm optimistic that I'll get it all figured out and be able to use this tool to improve my woodworking! Cheers
The tape not holding could be the tape. It could be the environment in which you are working. I've had good luck with the tape so far (knock on wood). The end of your project requires more tape. The machine has nothing to reference.
I use the plate and workstation primarily. When I do what you are doing I always break things down and approach it like workstation or plate. for what you did here I would have taken a 1/4" piece of plywood with 3 rows of tape and just placed it in front of my cut. Then just move to the next dado and do the same thing. I have had my shaper for over a year and have not used up the original tape. Yes it would be nice to draw the whole thing once in Studio and then do it as if you were using a cnc but to me it has too many pitfalls.
Appreciate the comment I like the idea of making a plywood board with the tape on it! 👍
Interesting. You can do that without introducing errors because the dominoes and the cutting surface are at different heights?
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I’ve never had any issues. But I did practice a lot on it, made all the errors on scrap material, now I love my shaper Origen. Need pointers on correcting basic mistakes I’m here
practicing on scrap material is definitely a must!
That sucks bro. Thanks for sharing. It should be much clearer that you shouldn’t turn/spin the shaper otherwise you end up with these problems. Like that should be lesson 1.
I agree, hopefully people see this before they use it and don't mess anything up
I have one, I love it. Probably you have issue with the lights.... not kidding
The lights? What do you mean
Not enough tape you, shaper tape is very easy to apply and remove from your project. When you do ha e delamination of the tape, it needs to be brought to 77 degrees or cooler. There is a help document on this on the shaper tools website. The best way to do this is to throw the roll in the freezer for about 30 minutes or so and tear a straight piece off and then proceed to and pull somewhat slowly from the tape . Also, when scanning, make sure you're scanning with good overlaps more the better and turn the origin and different directions here and there. Sometimes, you might need a little more tape in front of the origin to see , so next time, break your large projects down in sections and keep an eye on the domino read out.
I could've routed this with my bosch and some straight edges lol... idk man seems like way overcomplicating what is a somewhat simple job. We have a Shaper at work and i've never had issues with it, but can imagine this was tough from the start and a big time investment.
You've got some serious skills
I returned mine. I’m an old school cnc guy and I thought this was awesome from the first time I saw it but in my shop it had too many limitations and annoyances.
I've never had a CNC, but I've been saving up for one. The shaper definitely has its limitations, I feel like a CNC is definitely Superior
@@BuiltKnotBought It is a tool with good (limited) uses. If you're somebody that makes a lot of small-ish inlays or has to countersink a lot of hinges it can be very useful. If you make a lot of tenon joints it can be of good use. For as much as this costs, say around 3k, you can get a pretty good desktop CNC machine that has a tremendous amount of uses.
The things that really turned me off with it, and again, I was in love with the design when I first saw the Kickstarter thing back in 2015 or so are the following (and, again, this is coming from somebody that has worked with and played with CNCs for decades): (1) The tape sucks. Your points are all valid. For as much as this tool and all the other parts cost, the tape is an embarrassment. It tears and pulls up and crinkles, just lousy. (2) My nice bright LED shop lights messed with the camera on the SO. It would lose its location and caused all kinds of issues. Some said to turn off my shop lights, really? Or to install new lights, really? I have a big bright shop and I need to re-light it for one tool? (3) My shoulders and back would get tired. Since the user is actually part of the tool, you're going to get tired if it is a big cut. (4) As far as big cuts go, they take a very long time. Tiring on the body and eyes too to be so concentrated on following that line. (5) I wanted to be able to cut large things, but unless you're willing to crawl around on the floor or on top of a massive bench, forget it. How far over can a normal person push a tool with ease? Not fun. (6) The cash grab by the Shaper people for that Autopass thing ($200), that should be "free" with a $3,000 tool just bothered me more and more as I thought about it. (7) No tab feature. Really? That would be hardly any code work for the designers. I'm expecting a TabPass "feature" to come out soon for probably another hundred or two hundred bucks. Then more money for that Shaper Trace thing, and more money for the Shaper Hub thing, more money for the plate and.... (8) Sliding the thing around can get herky jerky. If it slightly snags on a burr or the tape or something it can throw off a clean cut. The auto retraction thing in my experience isn't fast enough and you can easily mar up an edge. (And this was not user error - I have damn steady hands, just a thing I noticed when using it) (9) My cuts were nowhere near as clean and neat as an old school, and even cheap diy desktop CNC. There would be wavy lines even with shallow careful cuts. There are other things I really disliked about it after getting it but I'll stop here. I was pretty bummed because I was looking forward to so many things with it, but in the end, for my use, it was a no go. Returned it for a refund. As an aside, for less than a third of the cost of the SO I built a V1 Engineering Low Rider 3 CNC that has a cut area of around 3'x7'. And with this we have full on CNC capabilities. Design the project, create the tool path, home the CNC and hit go. Then work on other things nearby while the CNC does all the cutting. If building a CNC isn't your thing, save a little more (the SO is at $3k), save up to around $5k and you can really get a very decent 4'x4' CNC that will do incredible things.
@@BuiltKnotBought Every machine has limitations. Unless you buy a 4 x 8 ft CNC (>$10,000?), plus all that floor space, how would you do that top? I admire you gumption, and I like that you're receptive to some of the advice offered in these comments. In retrospect, even though the 'shapes' you were cutting were simple, doing it as a single extended operation over the entire surface and perhaps not doing an 'aircut' dry run made this a very challenging experience. But great that you shared what happened so that we can all learn from your real-world experience, painful and frustrating as it surely was.
@@steveh8724 appreciate the comment, I've definitely learned allot from my mistakes and from the feedback in the comments!
The shaper makes significant mistakes when one turns the shaper 180 degrees to the dominos. Big fault they really should fix.
Good to know I'll try to avoid that next time I'm using it
Wouldn't turning the machine 180 deg fool the camera and computer from what it read from the initial scan? Not sure that's really a fault. I always stay pointing in the direction from where I scanned.
@@hhanger1 think so yes. Something goes wrong when turning too many degrees... Hope they fix it cause is purely software related.
@woodensoul !
I wouldn’t have used the origin for the slots. Far easier to use a router with a straight edge
I figured it would be a easy project to test it out in
I think you've got too little tape, running in the wrong direction for your application. Also, it can be hard to keep the Shaper moving in a straight line if you're reaching across a large piece of material like you are. A straight edge clamped to the workpiece might help...
I'll try adding some more tape next time
Found this in a Shaper forum and its a reply from Shaper support. I think it may have implications here...
" Did you happen to turn your tool to face the opposite direction when you went to do your finishing passes? Origin operates best if you determine ‘due north’, that is the direction your tool is facing in your scan, and try to keep roughly in that direction throughout your cut. The kind of shift you saw could be caused by facing ‘south’ to your original ‘north.’ "
Thank you for digging into this, I definitely did switch directions because I couldn't reach the other side... I wonder if that's why was having issues!!!??
@@BuiltKnotBoughtit does lose positional accuracy when you flip the origin 180 to reference the tape behind you. I just made an "MFT top" with dog holes across a 4' x 8' bench. I put a scrap of ply on a saw horse to make an over hanging tape board so I could still reference new tape when cutting at the edges (it turned out great)... I think a lot of issues you're having would be solved with making a set of tape boards (hop on shaper hub and pick one). After you make it use packing tape over the shaper tape if you plan to slide the shaper over it a bunch (that trick might have solved your issues with the shaper tape getting chewed up... Honestly though I've driven over mine a bunch and haven't had your issues (does your dust collection suck and your essentially sanding it off?))... It's wild how off it got in the middle but if the origin ever starts chattering you need to stop ASAP.
This is really helpful information i greatly apprciate the feedback. I think the packing tape idea is going to be in my near future. I also agree having a tape board would have helped! Im going to check out the shaper hub now, thanks again!@@Ko3n3k33
Good luck. I think you've got some helpful feedback here. You can also make an air cut before you start your project. The tool will not do any cutting but it will let you know if it runs into areas where its having issues.@@BuiltKnotBought
Why in the hell would you use a shaper for t-track channel? Way to overthink it.
I didn't know I thought it would be a great project to test it out and and keep everything straight and square
@@BuiltKnotBought LOL, I hear you. I just always have a high propensity for doing everything twice and as much work as you put into the outfield table there is no way I would have tried my learning curve on that when a router and straight edge is almost fool proof. Don't give up I know there are way better applications for the Shaper in your work.
I’m a complete rookie but the thing I’d say you’re doing wrong is learning how to use a tool on the last part of an “important” project that you have a lot of time already invested in.
You may be a rookie but you've got the wisdom of a veteran
If I was you I would just be so upset with that thing and pack it up and ship it to my house. 😁
You're right I'll send it your way, you just have to pay the 4k in shipping and handling
@@BuiltKnotBought lol
I learn that you need scan all around tape from all directions how shaper will see tape. Next thing when you push shaper Orgin I heard noise. Under the shaper ther is like space Bar. I like not 100 % sure Wath his doing it. Bet from Wath I done it's main thing wich help setap depths of cuter. Might be when you pus on a pocket and then thing was not the position wer Shold be and evry time it's got kick can make sharp corners or something like that and tape will be damaged. And it's a plastic not a steal. For me biggest problam is large ore big data which shaper can't berlly handle need to wait 5minits to loading in.
Just redo the top. Not that big a deal.
Speak for yourself
Sorry but wrong tool for the job. You are cutting straight lines that any trim or standard router could handle with a guide.
Thank you for your intelligent and helpful comment
Maybe you would be happier using a good router with trackrail. Eg Festool
I think that would have been a better option