I agree, the first time a ninja dropped smoke to run at me and engage I was very surprised, seemed really unintuitive that they could move freely and I could do nothing.
😮😮😮😮 You are absolutely correct! But it would make cheap units with smoke very powerful units who control the battlefield in ARO, which may not be a good outcome 😢
Well they already do by creating visibility zones that the enemy cannot see through. And as the reactive player isn’t moving when smoke is down it’s the active player that would be negatively impacted by the change.
In infinity you can still move towards units outside LoF to get into base to base with a model - say around a blind corner. If you ever walked through the smoke that these grenades produce you'd realise your visibility is reduced but its not like you are walking blind through it - if that was the case no military would use it! I imagine most movement in infinity is fairly cautious and if you can round a blind corner without reducing movement I don't see why you couldn't walk through smoke at that same pace.
I'm open to this idea. I would propose that it is a new type of terrain and not difficult terrain. I would say that troops with Sixth Sense can move through it freely.
Great idea. Playing a faction with no smoke and limited MSV, it irks me that my opponents can lay down smoke everywhere and run around totally unimpeded. Slowing down there movement and therefore making them think about order efficiency would be a nice balance without ruining the benefit of smoke
It's really a good idea, both from a realism and tactical point of view, but I think there are 2 problems: cheap smoke units should cost more (otherwise you make them even more area denial for the same cost) and the rule nesting you talk about (they phased out my beloved falling damage rule, which was very simple and helped realism a lot). But your proposal has quite some potential, I wish it was considered for the new edition.
I think from a realistic or thematic standpoint it makes a lot of sense. From a balance and game play perspective, in my opinion, it wouldn’t work. Smoke and units that throw smoke are actually pretty balanced right now. Adding difficult terrain would pretty much make any warband worse. Even with smoke how it is it’s already pretty tough to get someone all the way down the board to go Rambo.
It definitely would be a tax on war bands especially the cheapest ones (monks and Varangians). The more expensive smoke units (Oznat and bikes) can easily hood the grenade far enough to not interfere with their advance. But really appreciate the reasons why it wouldn’t work!
@@the_infinitygamer I mean I like the idea though. I hope you don’t take it that I am trying to trash you for sharing your opinion! Keep making videos man. Gets conversation going. And again, I’m just sharing my opinion, and I make no claim my opinion makes its origin in the mind of greatness. 🙏
@christopherbeers8095 not at all! I’m really grateful to hear other views on the subject and I really like what you’ve said. Thank you so much for articulating it so well too!
I think the bigger question is, why is it just as easy to melee someone in smoke or whos using ODD as it is to melee anyone else? Wouldn't you have trouble seeing where youre punching?
This is a terrible hot take. Throw-able difficult terrain would be really irritating and potentially abusable. Being able to throw difficult terrain in front of opponents would potentially really screw up other players movement. Plus if you were to use it with total terrain troops they'd be able to use it to boost your own movement. I'm sorry 😂 I can't support this idea. Throw it in the bin.
@@the_infinitygamer I don't think having it expire at the end of the turn takes away the issue. I've played many many games where one player, the second player, has very few orders to get to an objective and either hold it or push a button to win. Smoke becoming terrain would absolutely screw people in this situation, either as the user or the victim. Because suddenly you're able to guarantee, at absolutely no risk to yourself, that you can force an opponent to spend extra orders moving through difficult terrain that could cost them the game. That's no fun. A second issue is smoke shooting, I could see someone throwing smoke, in front of an opponent, just to pin someone in the open and expose them to an extra round of MSV shooting they wouldn't have otherwise been vulnerable to. You could also use it as a blocking tool, say Uxia with smoke and visor comes to a corner, she can throw the smoke so the opponent is outside of it, smoke shoot them knowing they can't dodge into the smoke and base her. This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure I could think of other ways to abuse this idea. I used to play Caledonians and Steel Phalanx so I know how good smoke can be but making it terrain is not a good fix for what I think you don't like about it. What you're talking about is similar to a dazer and I really dislike that thing as well. It's anti-fun and just clogs the battlefield. I don't think there's a massive issue with smoke so I don't think this is necessary. Personally the only change I would make is to switch it to -9/6 visual modifier so if someone wants to blaze into someone moving or dodging through smoke then they have a chance even without a visor. That's a better fix IMO, gives agency to the other player and doesn't distort the utility of smoke.
@@TheFlashman The Dazer is a good point, and on top of that, using it for less abusive applications just becomes not worth it instead...when was the last time you a) saw anyone USE a dazer, and b) it did anything meaningful besides maybe using it in a more clunky way to do as you described.
I can't say that I've ever come across anyone who has thought that how smoke currently works is really a problem...what happened that turned you against the mechanic? I think that making smoke difficult terrain would make it really bad; the whole point of smoke in most situations is to make movement quicker and more accessible across contested zones, and this suggestion actively makes that worse and discourages using it. It also nests rules into each other in a way that they have been trying to reduce, and it doesn't really add any realism in my eyes; quite the opposite actually. The amount of situations where my special forces smoke to breach an area, only to stop at the edge of the area because they have no concept of object permanence? I think that you are overthinking this.
Highly likely that overthinking is happening. The situation was a 25-30 point monk Haris charging 30+” deep into my DZ under smoke to chain rifle key units. Had they of needed to go around the smoke it may have taken 1-2 extra orders to achieve the same outcome, meaning fewer orders to cause chaos behind enemy lines.
Maybe if you have smoke as a weapon, it’s presumed you’ve trained with it, and effectively have it as a terrain keyword too. When I see it used, it’s usually as a means to get CC models into the game without getting mown down by ARO tough guys (and the move penalty would nerf something that doesn’t happen often enough anyway)… so it’s fine IMO.
Terrible radical opinion. Smoke doesn't disperse in a discrete circle it blows and moves so making your way through it isn't an issue. I'm more concerned about access to smoke and the factions that don't have much of the most basic of tactical options.
Great counter argument. Thanks for the balance of opinions! With regards to your second point I think some of the factions that don’t have it probably shouldn’t. With the MSV options Pan O has it could be too powerful also having access to cheap warbands with smoke.
I think HML should be disposable 3 too while we are on it :) but I can understand its more things to track and wont impact the game much as its rare to throw or fire that much in a game.
@darkmystic7764 I’d say so. I was having a chat to someone the other day about what makes sci fi or fantasy realistic and we decided that it’s the grounding of those worlds in plausible physics. Riding a dragon is realistic so long as the rider gets wet when going through clouds and passes out above a certain altitude. It’s not realistic for a fire to break out in the vacuum of space. That’s my perspective on realistic fiction 😃
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
If we're going for realism, fucking *everyone* should have smokes.
😂
I agree, the first time a ninja dropped smoke to run at me and engage I was very surprised, seemed really unintuitive that they could move freely and I could do nothing.
Sixth sense is your only friend in that instance but it’s so uncommon/expensive to make (4 person link) that it’s not a reliable counter.
You are correct, give msv and six sense the ability to more normally while the rest have difficult terrain.
Phew! Glad this could be a thing.
😮😮😮😮
You are absolutely correct!
But it would make cheap units with smoke very powerful units who control the battlefield in ARO, which may not be a good outcome 😢
Well they already do by creating visibility zones that the enemy cannot see through. And as the reactive player isn’t moving when smoke is down it’s the active player that would be negatively impacted by the change.
In infinity you can still move towards units outside LoF to get into base to base with a model - say around a blind corner. If you ever walked through the smoke that these grenades produce you'd realise your visibility is reduced but its not like you are walking blind through it - if that was the case no military would use it! I imagine most movement in infinity is fairly cautious and if you can round a blind corner without reducing movement I don't see why you couldn't walk through smoke at that same pace.
That’s a very good point…
I'm open to this idea. I would propose that it is a new type of terrain and not difficult terrain. I would say that troops with Sixth Sense can move through it freely.
This is a great suggestion!
I like this idea.
Awesome to hear!
Great idea. Playing a faction with no smoke and limited MSV, it irks me that my opponents can lay down smoke everywhere and run around totally unimpeded. Slowing down there movement and therefore making them think about order efficiency would be a nice balance without ruining the benefit of smoke
Well…Pan O was a mistake 😜. I agree though. And even in my factions with smoke I wouldn’t mind thinking about the placement a bit more.
If you made smoke difficult terrain then anything that has terrain total would actually move faster through it.
Could use it as a speed boost for an attacking unit.
It's really a good idea, both from a realism and tactical point of view, but I think there are 2 problems: cheap smoke units should cost more (otherwise you make them even more area denial for the same cost) and the rule nesting you talk about (they phased out my beloved falling damage rule, which was very simple and helped realism a lot). But your proposal has quite some potential, I wish it was considered for the new edition.
There’s still time!
I think from a realistic or thematic standpoint it makes a lot of sense. From a balance and game play perspective, in my opinion, it wouldn’t work. Smoke and units that throw smoke are actually pretty balanced right now. Adding difficult terrain would pretty much make any warband worse. Even with smoke how it is it’s already pretty tough to get someone all the way down the board to go Rambo.
It definitely would be a tax on war bands especially the cheapest ones (monks and Varangians). The more expensive smoke units (Oznat and bikes) can easily hood the grenade far enough to not interfere with their advance. But really appreciate the reasons why it wouldn’t work!
@@the_infinitygamer I mean I like the idea though. I hope you don’t take it that I am trying to trash you for sharing your opinion! Keep making videos man. Gets conversation going. And again, I’m just sharing my opinion, and I make no claim my opinion makes its origin in the mind of greatness. 🙏
@christopherbeers8095 not at all! I’m really grateful to hear other views on the subject and I really like what you’ve said. Thank you so much for articulating it so well too!
I think the bigger question is, why is it just as easy to melee someone in smoke or whos using ODD as it is to melee anyone else? Wouldn't you have trouble seeing where youre punching?
Oooh even better point!
This is a terrible hot take. Throw-able difficult terrain would be really irritating and potentially abusable. Being able to throw difficult terrain in front of opponents would potentially really screw up other players movement. Plus if you were to use it with total terrain troops they'd be able to use it to boost your own movement.
I'm sorry 😂 I can't support this idea. Throw it in the bin.
Awesome thank you for sharing why it wouldn’t work! Would smoke clearing at the end of the turn reduce the negative impact on the opponent?
@@the_infinitygamer I don't think having it expire at the end of the turn takes away the issue. I've played many many games where one player, the second player, has very few orders to get to an objective and either hold it or push a button to win. Smoke becoming terrain would absolutely screw people in this situation, either as the user or the victim. Because suddenly you're able to guarantee, at absolutely no risk to yourself, that you can force an opponent to spend extra orders moving through difficult terrain that could cost them the game. That's no fun.
A second issue is smoke shooting, I could see someone throwing smoke, in front of an opponent, just to pin someone in the open and expose them to an extra round of MSV shooting they wouldn't have otherwise been vulnerable to.
You could also use it as a blocking tool, say Uxia with smoke and visor comes to a corner, she can throw the smoke so the opponent is outside of it, smoke shoot them knowing they can't dodge into the smoke and base her.
This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure I could think of other ways to abuse this idea. I used to play Caledonians and Steel Phalanx so I know how good smoke can be but making it terrain is not a good fix for what I think you don't like about it.
What you're talking about is similar to a dazer and I really dislike that thing as well. It's anti-fun and just clogs the battlefield. I don't think there's a massive issue with smoke so I don't think this is necessary.
Personally the only change I would make is to switch it to -9/6 visual modifier so if someone wants to blaze into someone moving or dodging through smoke then they have a chance even without a visor.
That's a better fix IMO, gives agency to the other player and doesn't distort the utility of smoke.
@@TheFlashman The Dazer is a good point, and on top of that, using it for less abusive applications just becomes not worth it instead...when was the last time you a) saw anyone USE a dazer, and b) it did anything meaningful besides maybe using it in a more clunky way to do as you described.
I can’t remember ever facing a dazed. Need to refresh my memory on how it works.
@@the_infinitygamer it's basically a mine that is difficult terrain. It really sucks.
I would totally be in favor of smoke doubling movement costs unless you have gear to see through it.
Oooh this is proving to be close in terms of the people that love it and those that don’t.
I can't say that I've ever come across anyone who has thought that how smoke currently works is really a problem...what happened that turned you against the mechanic?
I think that making smoke difficult terrain would make it really bad; the whole point of smoke in most situations is to make movement quicker and more accessible across contested zones, and this suggestion actively makes that worse and discourages using it. It also nests rules into each other in a way that they have been trying to reduce, and it doesn't really add any realism in my eyes; quite the opposite actually. The amount of situations where my special forces smoke to breach an area, only to stop at the edge of the area because they have no concept of object permanence? I think that you are overthinking this.
Highly likely that overthinking is happening.
The situation was a 25-30 point monk Haris charging 30+” deep into my DZ under smoke to chain rifle key units. Had they of needed to go around the smoke it may have taken 1-2 extra orders to achieve the same outcome, meaning fewer orders to cause chaos behind enemy lines.
Maybe if you have smoke as a weapon, it’s presumed you’ve trained with it, and effectively have it as a terrain keyword too. When I see it used, it’s usually as a means to get CC models into the game without getting mown down by ARO tough guys (and the move penalty would nerf something that doesn’t happen often enough anyway)… so it’s fine IMO.
Great argument for it staying the same!
I'm not opposed to it
Interesting!
Tell me where the smoke touch you. 😛Joke aside, maybe if the grenades had charges maybe two or three per model.
Making grenades disposable would make a huge difference. How do units have stealth when they have 20+ smoke grenades strapped to their body?!
You can see a few feet wile inside the cloud itself. You just cant see the other side wile outside the cloud.
Good point!
Are you quite INSANE, Sir!?! 😉
😂😂😂 I thought so
Terrible radical opinion. Smoke doesn't disperse in a discrete circle it blows and moves so making your way through it isn't an issue. I'm more concerned about access to smoke and the factions that don't have much of the most basic of tactical options.
Great counter argument. Thanks for the balance of opinions!
With regards to your second point I think some of the factions that don’t have it probably shouldn’t. With the MSV options Pan O has it could be too powerful also having access to cheap warbands with smoke.
A different mechanism could be make smoke disposable. 3 uses like other things.
I think HML should be disposable 3 too while we are on it :) but I can understand its more things to track and wont impact the game much as its rare to throw or fire that much in a game.
I agree with both of you on more disposable limites especially on smoke.
@@ayurgal that would be hell to track. Disposable ammo needs to be binned in the next edition. It's a terrible rule IMO.
I’m a fan of ditching it even if it only means infinite pitchers.
@@TheFlashman no worse than tracking mines imho.
Smoke is so tiresome, the few games I had between factions with no smoke were so much fun. So whatever reigns it in I'm all for it.
I face smoke a lot so I may be over-reacting.
@@the_infinitygamer We all do. I kept calling the game Smoketown.
It’s a smoke show unless facing Pan O
Smoking is cool though,
Does anyone still smoke or is it all vaping?
Infinity... a realistic game? What!? What a bizzare take. Yes aliens and nanospray weapons are so realistic...
They might be for 180-200 years into the future
@@the_infinitygamer So by that logic is warhammer 40k realistic?
@darkmystic7764 I’d say so.
I was having a chat to someone the other day about what makes sci fi or fantasy realistic and we decided that it’s the grounding of those worlds in plausible physics.
Riding a dragon is realistic so long as the rider gets wet when going through clouds and passes out above a certain altitude. It’s not realistic for a fire to break out in the vacuum of space.
That’s my perspective on realistic fiction 😃