Відео

I had 6 units ‘off the table’ at game start. Courtesy list showed 6 units and 1 camo in pool 1 and a Warcor in pool 2 playing JSA. Had 2 Raidens, a Ninja, 2 Kurayami Ninjas, and a parachutist all in pool 2.

@the_infinitygamer so that's like 130+ points and 3swc, right? I feel like your opponent would notice that without having to declare command token usage unless they're new and that's very abusive against a new player in a casual setting (tournament pairings aside). So probably not a big deal? I feel like the place where an 11 unit list with a single hd might work is in steel. You jam the list full of big boys and hope the opponent doesn't expect the agema but even then I'm a little skeptical that this is a viable build that would deceive opponents meaningfully or injure the player if they opponent realized they had to worry about agema/Atlanta/eldrmoi gr4Nc3RlZWwtcGhhbGFueACBLAIBAAoBgmABAQACgkwBBAADgl8BAgAEgmIBAQAFglMBAQAGh0ABAQAHgmQBAQAIgugBAQAJgmEBAQAKhb8BAQACAAEBgloBAQA%3D

Definitely not against a new player! I do t think the existence of HD is a massive secret but confirming their existence feels odd when the mechanic of private info is that you don’t have to confirm it. It seems unnatural to verbalise its existence. There’s also an order vulnerability perspective. If I’m starting with only 6 orders in an order pool and you can strip 2 of them then I’m unable to do much without revealing the HD. Seems a player leaning into HD is being double pinged by having fewer starting orders (by choice) and is vulnerable to having them removed. It discourages the use of AD and HD in smaller unit lists.

@@the_infinitygamer it might be an unintended consequence of the rule, though we lived through it in N4 and I think came out ok without the limited insertion protection. Most lists pushed for 15 units as best as a faction could. Those who deliberately want to stick to ten orders now have some extra protection to lean into big pieces. Not sure I see big losers in that. While the HD/AD lists might be forced to reveal the broad existence of private information, I feel like the opposite case might also be kinda of bad. Your opponent has ten orders in the board so you can't strip them and then they drop a rasyat in your dz and get a full order pool to wreak havoc. If there must be an exploit here, I think it's less damaging to the player with the off table orders. You can get so much mileage out of the threat of a noctifer or cutter by having your opponent spend orders to avoid potential AROs through cautious move or on returning to marker states that they are less effective even if they take the two orders off the HD player's first turn. It could be that we see less HD/AD selection as a result but I'm a bit skeptical that this would be the reason why. Seems like relative unit performance in faction (like taking an Ekdromoi in Steel) would still be the main factor in the decision as opposed to a potential command token spend if the player happens to get first turn. I think a few months from now we won't worry about this as the meta settles and we get a sense of what the real power pieces and factions are

I get what you’re saying. The LT WIP is an interesting one as it applies more when you have an LT with a unique WIP value. If I’m playing Pan O and tell you my WIP is 13 I haven’t disclosed much that’s useful 😂

@the_infinitygamer yeah, and if I'm playing TAK and I tell you that sure, I only have nine models deployed but I do actually have more than ten in the list, it's not really giving anything away either!

Does TAK have access to much counterintelligence?

@the_infinitygamer just Voronin, I believe. I'm mostly a Yu Jing player, though, where it's quite feasible to end up with a 10-unit list just by accident. ;-)

No idea sorry!

Sunrise (Super slowed + reverb)

Remember dudes, Shazam always works... Always

Micro Art Studio knocked the design out the park!

Same!!!

Nothingburgers are delicious.

The ambiguity is that is says "Army list" rather than "Order pool". The intent seems to be as you said, but the writing says differently unfortunately. It is on the list for CB to answer once they're back from vacation :)

@norlin76 Thanks for the reply 🙂 I get the point, but I really do feel it's all in the rules already. First, it must be stressed the points are written in separate sentences as different pieces of information - page 12 already outlines private info. Then part one of the quoted bullet point from page 124 describes the command being used "right after the order count", not after the order count and after player 2 asks for additional information. Then there is the *additional sentence* in the bulet point stating it can only be used to remove orders from lists with more than ten orders, right? Right. So - player 2 cannot use the command to remove orders from army lists with less than 10 orders and they cannot ask for private information to be revealed, as clearly outlined already on page 12, and they can't even ask as they can only use the information available "right after the order count" to know if they can use the command - or not. Those are the rules as written. There isn't even a slight implication the last part of the bullet point can trump everything previously written. So again, I'm not seeing any ambiguity. Not hating on Infinity Gamer for highlighting the point though, it at least got me rereading the rules a bit more closely 🙂

I tried very hard not to share an interpretation of the rules and tried to highlight the differing arguments. No hate received on this side and really value your insights on this.

This is true but you could easily get around this by putting a Warcor or camo token in pool 2.

The sidestepped pothole is the amount of orders you can bring to the table with Invencible in a single combat group thanks to tac aware, the LT+1 order, and NCO... Mind you, they can use 12 "regular" orders thanks to the Daoying and any of their NCO and comply entirely with this rule however we wanna read it. The pothole before was that some sectorials were able to place quite the number of bodies in a single combat group (for example, Vanilla Nomads could place the puppetactica unit for 4 bodies in 7 wounds, and an UberfallKommando for another 4 bodies that, while having 4 wounds, would dodge at 15 or 19.

They definitely don’t count (according to the rules) UNLESS you turn them regular using Strategos.

@@the_infinitygamer and if it is as written referring to the "Army list" then I'm guessing Strategos won't matter. Strategos will matter if it's against the "Order pool", can't wait for CB to get back from vacation!

@@norlin76 Strategos turns those into regular at the start of the turn, during the order recount phase... buit is optional, so you could not turn those in turn to comply with the limits to get the "protection" against losing 2 orders. NCO would circumvent this entirely since it consumes LT orders.

The intent is to add Limited Insertion in the rulebook as a base rule instead of an ITS one, but adressing the differences between having or not huge amounts of tac aware we got. The hole is how this favours a 10 orders list with NCO and Lt+1order, which is an "effectively" 12 orders list instead of 10+1 or 10+2. And the problem is, as usual, the wording.

Being able to read the Spanish version would be super helpful in understanding the intent behind the rules.

Right, but it might be mis-translated. As written, it makes the player reveal possibly hidden information, which is hopefully an unintended side effect

@Nos2113 it is not that much of a hidden information to anyone who can add up the points you have on the table.

@@naib_stilgar This is honestly why I think they should just do away with hidden information altogether. It's just another barrier for new players to overcome.

​@@Nos2113is hidden information ever really meaningful ? Genuine question. I haven't played many games and we didn't bother with that.

@@LukeMartinVideo It probably makes a bigger difference to some factions. For Aleph it's pretty obvious, especially outside of vAleph (which will likely see little play until the new sectorial anyway)

I had similar in my game last night. It’s super confusing.

The existence of your second combat group is open information though, even though it is empty in the courtesy list. At least it was in N4, I don't know If it is the same in N5

Everything is public information but what is stated as private information in the rulebook (among the first 10 pages or so, it has its own heading). While having drop troopers IS private info, your Courtesy List will have an "empty" second group, so your opponent can draw the conclusion that there are one or more troops, either droppers or hidden, in that second group, but you are not obligued to provide more info.

Generally that's the best way to do it--but in this case it does matter how we interpret and play it. Their strategy in the past couple editions has been to let players sort out intention for themselves, play it that way and adjust to it, then they formalize it later, even if it wasn't what they clearly originally intended. That way it's fewer things they need to correct and get players to adjust to later. Which is honestly fine by me, but makes me want to go hard into "10 orders showing" so it becomes how they affirm it later. I want limited insertion back. And I say that as a player that almost never used it! But I loved the option, for myself and others. I will say, the worst case scenario is actually more like 10,000 daylami with panzerfausts. But I'd deal with it, even though I've never done it myself.. (But I *do* have 11 daylami models from four different generations of models.. hm..)

It needs more clarification, but it says "army lists" have more than 10 orders, not the player have more than 10 orders in their total order pool. So I think it should be based on the army list, not the orders generated. Same as your Lt is privite information but your Lt's wip is open at the initiative roll.

No. That is not what the rule says AT ALL.

Just a note for anyone confused by this, hidden troopers generate an order, it just stays hidden with them instead of going into the order pool, and you don’t disclose the fact that it was generated or which combat group it’s in until the unit is placed on the table, usually by spending its own off-board order.

Sadly yes! Will work on toning it down in future.

Does seem (from a very brief dive) that Blkout is a lot more straightforward and simple.

It does depend on which mechanics you didn’t like. Things like troopers generating orders for a pool is the same, as are AROs. Some other mechanics that were clunky have gone so could be worthwhile giving it another try!

Always appreciate set-up feedback!

You’re so welcome! As a general rule of thumb any model that’s S4, S5, S6 and S7 and released after 2023 will be siocast. Some newer releases (since Lu Duan and Rui Shi, Wrecker, etc) in those sizes will be hard plastic. CB has a habit of changing materials so you’d be well served asking in the infinity global community. All S2 units (with 1 exception) are full metal or mixed material.

The weighted dice aspect is an argument I have seen and I don’t think it’s without merit. However (and spolier on a future vidéo) but the mechanic of crits cancelling everything and higher dice candeloing lower means weighted dice might still lose. And I do think there’s still that same interaction with your opponent. You still need to work out mods and success values. It’s certainly a big change!

@@the_infinitygamer I don't really mean _actual_ weighted dice, just the psychological aspect of it. It's easier to lose when you know it's fair.

It will take a while to get used to. Especially my Montessa bike with the dismounted model 😂

Turrets seem to be the flavour of this new edition. Have yet to see them in action but keen to give them a go!

Which is a shame as I relied on climbing for my Zeta.

I did not!! Thank you for the reminder - might be worth a smaller video to explain.

I agree, creates space in the right areas without making things more bloated. A great edition all round!

Glad it is useful!

Keen to hear your thoughts on which ones you’re not liking 😊

@the_infinitygamer (This is Isaac, the "double tag" player. So you've probably seen much of this in the regional chat.) These are the negative things. Remember, practically everything else is improved: The loss of dismounting, when I think it would be more interesting to have kept the n4 dismounting rules and put unoccupied TAGs into something like Possessed state (controlled by their player) while they don't have a pilot. Then make the pilots better, with gear designed to support their TAG like melee skill or a Deactivator... even an engineer. That way you'd have people dismounting pilots to clear repeaters and dense rooms, and playing manned units differently from remote presence TAGs. As it is, every tag feels like it's remote presence. TAG-Com is a decent skill, but should be a support crew type ability rather than going on troops who are themed as "pilots"... the tech-bee is the perfect unit for it. I'm also disappointed they're all the same on release, aside from the one or two which are a worse version of the same. Speedball seems like a massive and unnecessary buff to alpha-strikes. I like the idea, but the implementation seems like it creates more problems than it solves. I've only had one game with it, though, so I may be wrong here. Replacing vanilla factions with what's effectively a "most famous units" sectorial is disappointing, in that they're giving up on the interesting asymmetrical balance there used to be. I understand they might not be able to handle balancing it, and the number of units would confuse new players, but it's disappointing to only have one kind of army construction. I'd prefer to have armies with more variety of building rules, rather than all being close to the same. Keeping the slot limit is bad, in my opinion. If daylami were given their n3 SWC cost there'd be no need for a hard limit on slots, which frequently ruins hidden information gameplay. Especially with elite troops being slightly cheaper, armies with 25+ troops won't be winning much anyway, so why ban them? What's the issue with morats having a sea of Hungries without the orders to do much with them? Berserk has been changed into the N3 skill Assault... which was barely ever used and widely regarded as pointless. I'm skeptical about it now being useful. The fireteam bonuses aren't enough to encourage large teams, they should be arranged in order of power. I don't foresee many people taking troops specifically to get bonuses after the special die. I like duos and trios, but doubt there'll be many 4 or 5 troop teams... contributing to the formerly-generic factions playing like all the other sectorials.

There are also a handful of questionable unit upgrades, and units with abilities which might potentially be too much. Such as Joan with an AP spitfire, or linked neurocinetics, or all the 8-8 units. Again, the vast majority of changes are improvements though.

The only thing I see a massive challenge with is the hungrier example but that’s because of their core and Haris limits. With the Oznat being AVA2 you could run a Hungries core and a Haris and that’s 8 regular orders for only 54 points fueling something big (like a Raicho). The limits are aligned to how things have been buffed since N3 (which is another good point you make).

Sorry, 60 points as ghakis are AVA4 so you’d need 2 Pretas.

Your document was a massive help, as was the discussion in the thread of your post. Thank you for the effort you put into that document!!

@@the_infinitygamer yeah, I did the same last edition, and it was being used as recently as a few months ago.

It’s so good for anyone that took a break from the game. Really appreciate your work Clint!

Morats look great and JSA are looking epic - I’m excited to run them for the next year and see how they play while testing Torchlight and Morats again. Yeah the timing of the release wasn’t ideal for Christmas obligations hahaha!

​@@the_infinitygamerI hope jsa get a solid glow up, pay off for all those jsa loyalists. For me jsa was just a painting project. The reason I got into infinity was tohaa.

Tohaa - the faction we all love to hate!

​@@the_infinitygamerthe n3 hate was something else... it was so bad I stopped showing up to game nights for over a year.

While a shame for you as a player I can see how that might happen to a faction that can blow out your brains from the other side of a wall!

Hahaha you’ll be fine. I will be working on some explainer videos ramping up the difficulty so stay tuned!

Start with some basic box set games and you'll be rock solid and ready with the full rules after 3 matches

Great advice here

No worries at all!!

Hahaha yeah the deployable cover is taking a while for me to get used to, especially the anti-enemy version.

Same!

Immunity (Enhanced) is largely the replacement for Immunity (Total). The only difference is that Non-lethal weapons ignore it.

​@pseudonymmster that's a pretty massive difference though, allowing flash-pulses etc to work

Agree, it was so annoying having flash pulses bounce off total immunity models. Same with all my O12 sticky ammo!

@@Isaac-hm6ih Totally agree. It's a huge difference because flash-pulses are so ubiquitous, and them being useful against nearly everyone is nice.

I think the people that got N2 are really smart because there’s a lot of complexity and nesting there that carried on into N3. Having jumped in then I felt there was too much for my little brain to handle! Glad you like the change of direction for rules, it will be interesting to get a few games in to see how it all works!

Same here! A lot of changes to things that feel more natural.

Must have been confusing myself with biometric visor

ah that makes sense. after posting i thought it might have been an editing error

You were spot on

You’re very welcome!

I’m sure there will be some people! Have you tried finding some through warcors or the Facebook group?

@@the_infinitygamer A little the closet folks to me are 1 hour and 2 hours away. my local shop just started carrying the game at the end of n4 so I'm hopping to get some demos going there.

That would be so good if you can see some demos happening. Shane everyone is so far away from. You for a casual game though!

Thank you team! Been loving yours!