UK Police Powers and YOUR Drone - What You Need to Know!
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2022
- UK Police Powers and YOUR Drone - What You Need to Know!
Hey everyone! In the next video of our series in collaboration with the National Police Chiefs’ Council Counter Drones Team, we tackle the complex but vital subject of police powers over your drone and flight. What does an officer require to check your Operator ID? What powers of search and seizure are there? When can a police officer require you to land your drone.
In this video, we attempt to cut through the discussion around this important topic and provide a look at how the legislation is and can be enforced by police in the UK.
To find out more about the specific legislation discussed in today’s video: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...
The points discussed during this video relate to police powers under the Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Act 2021 as specifically related to drones. Here are some key bullet points for reference:
Schedule 8
Para 1 Power to require an Unmanned Aircraft to be grounded
Para 2 Power to stop and search persons or vehicles
Para 2(6) Power of seizure following a search
Para 4 Power to use force and retain seized property
Schedule 9
Para 1 Power to require evidence of Pilot competency
Para 2 Power to require information from Pilot about UAS Operator
Para 3 Power to require evidence of registration from UAS Operator
Para 4 Power to require information about Pilots from UAS Operator
Para 5 Power to require other information from Pilots or UAS Operators
Para 6 Power to require evidence of relevant ANO Consent
Para 7 Power to require evidence of relevant ANO Exemption
Para 8 Power to inspect Unmanned Aircraft
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The problem with most police interactions is that the general police do not understand the law. They then use this mistaken understanding to try to enforce a non-existent law.
It is an interesting issue. You would not expect an standard officer to inspect a car or be expert in traffic law as they can call upon colleagues for support and guidance. Yet although there are often drone units within forces, there isn't the same level of support regarding drones. It is a specialist area but with these new powers we are expected to follow them as drone operators. It needs attention for sure.
The police aren't really on anyone's side, but the one thing they will always want to do is establish control in a situation, so arguing back even if they are wrong is not usually sensible. Acquiesce, take details, and follow it up later.
@@Geeksvana you have heard the phrase "ignorance of the law is no excuse"? Let's apply that to stupid cops.
The biggest issue I can see here is that a reasonable subset of hobbyist drones require an Operator ID, which is not necessarily linked in any way to the person actually carrying and flying the drone.
The addition of the power to require identification feels, at least to me, that it should not apply to a drone unless it requires a Flier ID where the remote pilot's identification will actually match.
The ability to stop and id someone where that won't provide any legal benefit as is stated by the officers, to correlate you with the ID on the drone - because it won't necessarily with an Operator ID.
I also take profound umbrage with the approach the officer on the right takes with the fact that an initial inspection for airworthiness can uncover other powers for him to enforce.
The fact that he says that finding a drone has a camera has the "benefit" of requiring you to provide your Operator ID, and your name and address. This shows not only a profound misunderstanding of what an Operator ID actually is, but a dangerous attitude towards collecting your information out in public.
It feels a lot like this officer wants to fish for reasons for you to not fly, rather than protecting the public interest; and if this officer as a nominated representative of the police in general has this attitude, how can hobbyists feel safe that the police are there for everyone's safety, rather than just to shut you down?
The police in general are not on your side they think they know it all but dont know anything.
Exactly.
They are NEVER on your side.
I rather glossed over the requirement that they have "REASONABLE GROUNDS to believe an offence has been committed or is going to be committed".
They seemed to suggest that the very fact you were flying or even possessing a drone gave them those grounds. Surely that cannot be right?
Hi Geoff! One of the reasons I wanted to make this video with the officers explaining their powers in detail is the fact that the new powers do give them that very power and I felt most people would not realise this. The specific powers granted regarding drone flight do not under many circumstances require reasonable grounds.
We listed the powers along with a link to the new legislation in the description.
99% of police officers will suspect you are committing an offence because they don’t know the drone rules. Ignorance, should not be used as reasonable grounds.
Flying a drone does NOT CONSTITUTE A CRIME. They have zero suspicion from seeing a drone in the air.
All it takes is 1 person to complain and they will be out like s shot to find out what's going on
The officer say’s don’t be confrontational 😆
That’s your strong argument? Wow. No wonder why they are automatically hated. 😅✌🏻😆
It all makes sense now! He just wants to have an ego and make his job easier. It’s not about fairness and law. 💁🏿♂️
This video has made this section of the law even more confusing! I'm pro police but these two coppers have just come across as "we can do what we like to get your details" and would clearly manipulate the law to do so. Even if they NEED suspicion, they will make something up.
Where have they made anything up? Im lost… they are just explaining the legislation for information purposes. Perhaps you have viewed the content and made your own mind up?
@@DONTCRY_Coops Hi. I think that's how it works bud. View the content and make your own mind up. My comment make perfect sense to me as I would imagine and hope that yours does to you. Have a great day bud.
One of the main issues here is that the majority of police officers in the UK haven't got a clue what the drone rules are. Surely it maybe an idea to provide them with some basic training on the CAA rules?
Hey Nick H! Thanks for taking the time to comment. Yes, I agree the information needs to be with the officers we all meet in the streets. There is a program of training happening through the appropriate methods but that takes a lot of time. We hope that output like this video could help to speed that up a little.
@@Geeksvana Well thanks for helping Sean, you're efforts are appreciated in the drone community!
I think in many cases a review of training should be done every year as many "bad" interactions are what is causing the public to mistrust police, Oh and accept that police lie and often abuse their position to make people comply,
It is an interesting area. Do you honestly expect police to know every single part of the law? Every single niche and hobby and the rules surrounding it? Even when interactions with drone users is still relatively rare? Just because we have auditors posting videos, that does not represent the average police response and even together, they represent a tiny fraction of the total flights happening without incident every day in the UK.
Instead, my opinion is that we need to see the approach from officers change and see them gain the support and knowledge when they do interact with drone pilots. Instead of attempting to grapple with legislation they do not know.
I don't support overreach or poor reactions by the police in any way at all but equally we have to be realistic about how much any officer can automatically know. The reaction and how the officer fills the void in knowledge is what is key to me.
@@Geeksvana I think the issue here is that an officer should 'know the law' they enforce. If they pull me over re my driving, they'd better know what violation I made and not improvise on the spot. So if they have an issue with a drone flight, they need to be able to vocalize what law was broken. Tbh, I don't expect them to commit every paragraph of law to memory. However, they should be able to find the section/paragraph on their tablet within 3 minutes. EG, I work in IT doing sys engineer and sysadmin work. I watch
ead many IT courses. On the job, I can troubleshoot things and find a related kb article. I don't need to rote learn whole manuals.
My point is, all they need to do is search "uk drone laws" before making up laws...'on the fly' (ba boom, tisssh!!).
I agree it needs landing but typical plod .....do as your told we will find an excuse later attitude clearly shown here.
"reasonably suspect" is their "catch all". Theyve got you by the short and curlys with that, this means that you have to provide your details regardless of whether you've flown legally or not.
That is something they fall back to a lot. We have another Q&A coming. A few of the questions surround the reasonable suspicion area, how they reach that level and how and if they are required to justify it to the person questioned.
So the police advice would be to just do as they say regardless of any powers or otherwise... imagine that!
at this rate the best way to operate your drone without getting pestered is to become a police officer
Watched this a few times now; how can the Police have "reasonable grounds" for suspecting a crime has or may be being committed, just because you're flying a UAV.
Sorry, but this explanation by these Coppers is pure BS.
They are basically Cally saying "we want you to comply!".
If you're not breaking the Law, then they cannot make you land it.
It is "reasonable" to inspect the drone for proof of an Operator ID (or proof of Competency if relevant), but it would not then be "reasonable" to try and ID you from that info, because zero laws are being broken.
I was flying my mini 3 pro filming a peaceful demonstration. The area I was flying in was in a built up area within a FRZ. (Yes I had clearance from the relevant ATC). First a BBC camera man asked if I knew that I was flying in a FRZ, then a policeman who was there for the demonstration approached me whilst the drome was doing a 360 pano. He just asked me if I knew that I was flying in a FRZ, and I replied yes, and that I had permission from ATC. He then asked if I had it with me and if could he see it. I replied I'll land my drone when the pano was finished and then show him the document. He said that's fine. I landed the drone, he looked at the authorisation from ATC and said "That's fine, carry on just make sure you fly safely, and not over the crowd". I said to him "Oh you know the rules then", he said yes "I fly a mini 2 myself"
Due to where and when I was flying I was expecting to be approached. This happened on a Monday, I flew there the rest of the week and no other police officers took any notice of me.
First response from me would be "is that a request or an order?"
If it's an order I'll comply and deal with it appropriately, if it's a request then it's a hard no. I'm busy.
If it's an order, I land the drone but then don't get cautioned straight away (as they should as soon as they suspect an offence has been committed under PACE) then I take my drone back up as they clearly don't suspect an offense and just want to flex some perceived authority.
It's striking the balance between complying with lawful orders and recognising the difference between lawful orders and egotistical orders
Brilliant point and officers do not like to be challenged.
You clearly werent listening to the video were you PTTP
@@charlesdarwen3683 Your comments are noted and I would do the same as PTTP for the reasons he has stated.
Basically, if you have a drone and spotted by police you are labelled as “potentially” doing something wrong until the officer feels better…. I had to laugh at the comment “we are not criminalising drone operators”. Quite a few contradictions here! I understand and appreciate the video but I think there has to be a better way of delivering this message to UAS pilots!
The police officer will inspect your drone to ensure it is air worthy. Are all police officers trained as aircraft inspectors then?
Police officers can pull you over on the road and check your vehicle for road worthiness. Are they also qualified MOT testers?
Actualy those who stopping and checking your vehicle for road worthiness are traned mot testers, not any police officer can take your car of the toad for this reason, if they suspect that car is not road compliant, they calling specifically trained colleague to do the job
Ok so a police officer can ask you to land and chat, ok I would.
I would say it’s a mini 2 sub 249g and I’m flying within the guidance.
I would show my op ID is on the drone but NOT allowing them to note the digits.
I would then ask what their suspicion of an offence is ? Given the info I’ve provided.
The pure and simple fact of NOT willing to give the op Id or your details DOSEN’T Give grounds of suspicion for an offence.
When their is a risk of any confrontation I don’t carry I/D in case of search.
If the “officer” insists on a power trip ask the question “do you have reasonable suspicion to arrest ?
Bearing in mind being arrested without sufficient grounds, would constitute unlawful and compensation award
"I would show my op ID is on the drone but NOT allowing them to note the digits." If you refuse to give the police your Operator ID in those circumstances then it is an offence and you can be fined up to £500.
@@NickLea you don’t have to give the police your op ID If there isn’t reasonable grounds on an offence.
What’s there reasonable suspicion if you are engaging politely?
@@SirD83 You are getting two different things conflated. To order you to bring your drone down or to seize it from you then they must have reasonable suspicion of an offence under Schedule 8.
However, requiring your ID is a totally separate thing and comes under Schedule 9. There is no requirement for suspicion of an offence for any part of Schedule 9.
So they can require your ID but they cannot require you to land the drone.
Interestingly, the only time that the police cannot ask for your ID is when you are the pilot but not the operator (eg you are using someone else's drone). In that case they can require you to give the details of the operator or whoever let you use the drone but cannot require your details as the pilot as long as the drone is below 250g.
But, of course, if you are the operator, then you must give your details to the police.
@@NickLea so you have to give your op id without reason?
Yet there’s no guarantee that it’s even legal as without your personal ID it can’t be matched to the op ID.
I would love to get a drone but the absolutely ridiculous amount of unreasonable rules and ignorant Cops means its a hard pass from me unfortunately
I thought the operator ID is for the owner of the drone not necessarily the Flyer?
Sadly, as with all other law where the police are required to have reasonable suspicion for whatever it is they are accusing you of, in practice they will ignore the law and use intimidation and/or force to make you comply with their plan. They're not really interested in the law, they are often just power mad bullies who want to dictate to ordinary people what they can and can't do. Rather than harassing drone operators can I suggest they identify and root out the criminals in their own ranks or, heaven forbid, solve the odd domestic burglary once in a while.
One of the issues I’m finding increasingly more is the “No Drones” signs that people are putting up willy nilly. Even thought it’s not private property or restricted airspace. It immediately puts you under the spotlight of committing a crime in the eyes of the uneducated public and some police officers.
There isn't any 'land' within the UK that isn't owned by someone so, how do you know it's not private property?
Having a unit with a negative title of “counter drones” doesn’t install any confidence in the officers being impartial in any way…….
Been a drone geek for 3 years now and just found your channel. Really love your different take on drone stuff. Its excellent! thank you
Thank you! Your feedback means a lot to me.
It is absolutely fascinating to watch Police openly stating that they want people to be subservient. Not once in the interview, when discussing the matter of forming an opinion that an offence had been/was about to be committed, did they discuss the Police Warning or Judge's Rules in which they inform the suspected offender that they do not have to answer any questions put to them. Of course that is due entirely to placing their insatiable greed for information, power and control above the rights of a person under investigation......................... Loved the defensive body language of the bloke on the left, he did not want to be there.
I 100% agree, they ignore the fact that they "need reasonable suspicion" And they do that because they are used to making stuff up, we see it daily on these youtube videos, and jumping from one excuse to another, none of which are valid (and that's the ones we get video on) "JUST DO AS I SAY BECAUSE WE DONT CARE!"
Alan, I would suggest you read the legislation linked in the description and in particular Schedule 8 and 9. There are several circumstances where police do not require any suspicion to approach and gain information from a drone operator. These are specific powers for drones. Doesn't mean I like all of them etc but it still doesn't mean they don't exist.
@@Geeksvana , I would say that the comment from Alan was in reference to the conduct or misconduct of Police in general, not specifically relating to the use of drones. In any case anyone who has watched auditing videos which include drones being used would have seen some fairly poor behaviour by Police who use their perceived authority and power of the uniform to force the auditor to comply. DJ Audits is one of the most pleasant and knowledgeable people involved it that activity and yet when asserting his rights he was handcuffed simply because he would not supply his personal details. During the interview the Police themselves made reference to suspicions that an offence had occurred, or was about to occur, and the fact remains that there is no legal obligation placed on the public to assist the Police in an investigation, or to self incriminate.
@@johnvienta7622 and the fact is that this video is not about attention seeking auditors and there entertainment releases. It is an explanation of police powers. Which it delivers on. There are FAR more people using a drone than a handful of auditors using them to deliberately wind people up. That is my audience and the people who requested this. Thanks.
@@Geeksvana , that is a bit of an odd comment considering the fact that the Police in the video spent a fair bit of time discussing auditors. Perhaps you should have told them to shut up.
The problem is that 99% of officers have no clue on drone laws and most don't want to listen when they are wrong.
Hey that 125 guy! That is a real issue in this situation. I hope the education being provided to officers does not take too long and we see a more balanced approach using the actual legislation in the future.
Ref inspection of the drone, what qualifies a run-of-the-mill pc to inspect and determine the technical condition of my drone?
Hey Dick Griffiths! Really interesting question and point. When it seems like a lot of work just to get fliers and officers up to scratch on the rules etc, where would expertise have to come into it. I suppose fortunately much of the enforcement legislation is not down to condition of the drone. Just my opinion though.
I noticed that some officers are trying to enforce that legislation with Auditors who fly their drones over Police buildings. One particular officer who is a drone expert detained an Auditor in order to obtain his name. The auditor refused he was let go. What makes this interesting their was another officer their and he had no problem with the auditor flying his drone.
I hope for a day when the new legislation is enforced correctly and accurately. Or at the very least, where an officer will stop and realise there is a lot more to it and check their position carefully. I hope for this as it would end the confrontations etc.
Those auditors are what I would call 'useful idiots' or shills. Repeatedly doing videos that I think inorganically trend. They only need to film a cop shop ONCE and then contact the Police and CAA to help suggest training or an FAQ to be issued to all officers. Job done. Instead, they quarrel about foolishness. I have the drone code and CAA info in my rucksack with me.
Instead of them provoking officers, they should fly reasonably somewhere else like in a park, on the beach....around public buildings and see if the Police complain. THEN explain\discuss. My problem with these audits is that people see them as idiots...therefore all of us as idiots and sad losers with nothing better to do.
@@mrlawilliamsukwarmachine4904 So fly only over a park or beach? Where do you fly your drone? That causes problems on its own. Kids etc scenario.
@@stuartbrown8259 I fly mine in the street, around public buildings, places of interest. Derelict areas… parks. You used the word ‘only’ as if I’m saying that. Obviously I’m not. My point went over your head. I’m saying these guys fly over a police station merely to be annoying. For views. Same like the heap of copycats that do similar. I honestly think it’s a fit up, like when people glue themselves to buildings or the road as a ‘protest’ just to see harsher laws against protests be rolled out. They’re useful idiots/plants. Why provoke the police on purpose repeatedly when they could just contact the station boss maybe after doing it once and then supply them with informative documents and links. I’m not saying people should only fly at parks/beach. I’m saying for a balanced ‘audit’ of police intervention, they should do normal and neutral flights and gauge the reaction. They don’t want to do that. Low views n subs.
@@mrlawilliamsukwarmachine4904 There are what a few handfuls of people that do these videos. Hardly anything to get concerned about.
It sounds like a lot of legislation today, highly subjective like Section 5, or Section 43 which gives the police way too much power to abuse, and we all know they already do. These 2 cops sound like they don't understand their powers because the 1st one describes not being aggressive and asking to land the drone to have a safe conversation. The 2nd one says if you have been asked to land the drone it's not a request, it's because they already suspect you of committing an offense? Which one is it?
We are not asking for their advice, we are asking what the law is.
The legislation involved is always on screen and then linked to in the description. The legislation is only part of the story though. How the police enforce legislation is absolutely key.
I disagree with automatically landing a drone just because the Police say to. The law demands "Reasonable Grounds". These PCs confuse the road traffic act with the rules governing drones. The road traffic acts says you must stop, the drone laws do not. Those two PCs are just saying what they want and not what the law allows them to do - the fundamental flaw with the UK Police Gang.
The powers they discuss are correct. The legislation listed in the description provides links to every power they explained. This is why we created this video because many people do not realise there was specific legislation passed a couple of years ago, providing very specific police powers.
@@Geeksvanayes and SPECIFICALLY they must have reasonable grounds to suspect a crime may have been committed, before they may engage and ask you to land your drone. So they do not have the right to your details automatically. Of course, what is likely, is they will say they have reasonable grounds to suspect a crime may have been committed, because that is what the police do.
Sorry, you are wrong. If the drone is not in the air, they are not required to have any suspicion to establish details. It is all there in the legislation, as explained in the video. Sadly, we cannot just interpret things how we want to.
@@GeeksvanaIf the drone is not in the air, what grounds do they have for asking for details??
They must have reasonable grounds to suspect that a crime may have been committed.
Plod isn't there to do spot checks on any drone pilot and ensure they're carrying proof of competancy. Most officers don't have a clue about drone legislation and where they can be flown. This is going to get messy.
@soupdragon2397 check the legislation linked in the description. It is listed in the same order as the on screen text as well.
It shows that there have been special powers provided to police in terms of drones. If you are carrying a drone, you have less rights than an average person walking down the road. That is the reason I made this content, because many people are unaware of the new powers.
They will continue with an inspection untill they find fault, they make that clear enough.
How would a police officer assess the competence of a drone operator ?
I believe they are wrong, in absence of reasonable suspicion of a crime they have no powers to demand an operator ID or any other details for someone flying a sub 250g drone. Schedule 9 states “has reasonable grounds for suspecting that a relevant competency requirement is or was applicable as respects P and the unmanned aircraft and the flight.” In fact at 11:04 the officer states “we need to make sure that the pilots are compliant with the competencies that they need to have in order to fly that drone”, as a sub 250g drone with a camera does not require a Flyer ID and therefore no demonstrable relevant competence is required by the person owning or flying the drone. An operator ID does not signify any level of relevant competence only a Flyer ID does. Schedule 9 in section 3 (a) and (b) goes on to say what must be provided i.e. proof of competence, not operator ID. The CAA (CAP722) make it clear that proof of competency means “remote pilots that have passed the ‘flyer ID’ online theoretical knowledge examination in accordance with UAS.SPEC.020(4)(b)”. So I would suggest all you would need to show them is that the drone is less than 250g and therefore no competency needs to be demonstrated to them, no operator ID and certainly no personal details. They also cannot infer that if I assert my rights and refuse to give them details that this gives them reasonable suspicion of a crime. The actual crime they have in mind must be articulated not just some ethereal concept of a crime. In any case I would not ask police officers about the law, I would ask a legal professional.
Definitely video any interaction on your phone once your have landed your drone. Always document visually and audibly ANY interaction with the police. Be polite but maintain a record.
At last some one who has read the legislation and understands it.
Absolutely, and to take it further, if what you say is not correct, how would the legislation ever be compatible with our protected human rights?
@@Mr-J... Agreed. I respect this channel but sorry the you tuber himself does not understand the legislation .
@@Mr-J... actually if you are involved in a vehicle stop you "MUST" provide your details. It's not about human rights its about showing competency and legal registration. The part I don't understand though is a police constable cannot just ask you for your driving licence and insurance documents if they see you getting out of or getting into a car. Legislation however allows them to do just this with your drone.
If the police can examine your drone for airworthiness what training do they receive to make them competent to do this? Many police don't even understand the drone laws. Also what rights do PCSOs have.
I fly a home built sub 250g model aircraft in a park, no ID, no markings. How can a police officer determine if it is legal? Will they be carrying scales or just confiscate it anyway and weigh it a police station?
They'd probably confiscate it, and take it back to the station in order to verify the weight.
Thanks, great to get this clear.
Sounds like the police can make things as they go along
Subject to the legislation in place. This is why we all need to be aware and participate in public consultations. This all went through the process.
Question about the operator ID, if it is registered to another person or a company, how does providing the flyer's personal details help verify anything? - what if both are provided but they dont' match?
i have a card i display when flying my drone which displays both my flyer id and my operator id
plus it has 1 of them scan things so i can be verified of my details
I would like to know where you get this ID card with your details on I am registered and have a licence but would like to carry these details around on a card where can I get this card from
@@maxarsehole1020 Print details on card. Laminate card. Use card. 👍🏻
It's quite amazing the inequality of powers. According to these officers and the quoted schedules if I have a drone in front of me on the ground (not even in the air) the police have the power to inspect the drone and ensure my registration and competence is in order to ensure the subsequent flight will be legal. However, I can sit in my Cesena 182 with the engines running and all fired up and ready to go but am under no obligation to provide licence details in any form unless I actually start to fly the craft... I know its knit picking but it shows the extent the "powers that be" are wanting to go to in the "name of safety" to control our use of the skies.
And then Google go and "safely land" on some power lines...
We have to remember that this is undoubtedly one of the safest hobbies in the world. There has been not one reported death as a result of a drone flight. Football, tennis, even ping pong can't boast that safety record. It's over regulation and is unjustified.
Hey Sam! Thank you for taking the time to share your experience and make some great points. I think that is why many have to this point confused the police powers in specific relation to drones, because it seems out of proportion. I think drones suffer from a very poor and undeserved impression with law makers in the UK, especially as you state the hobby side being such a safe pursuit.
These guys are drone police so know the rules... I've been hassled by a local police officer who clearly had zero idea of the legislation. Tried to say I was flying over private land without permission having taken off from private land.... I was in a park which is public. 10 minutes of arguing and being threatened to be arrested, another officer arrived who was a pilot too and knew the officer was wrong. Minutes later they left and I carried on.
Something I found interesting was that he pointed out that when a member of public calls in because a drone is flying, they will (or might) react, surely, it would be better if the call handlers were aware of the current legislation, and could point out that it isn't against the law to fly a drone over private property, for example.
Can someone clarify the operator ID details must match who ever is flying a sub 250g drone? So each individual person who may want to fly must get individual ID's?
If you own drone and you fly it 250g, then you need to have an operator id.
If you give it to someone they have to have a flyer id as far as i am aware.
Fly safe
can we register with our local police that we are legitamet drone flyers so that way we can just id ourselvs
In sorry but the guy interviewing here gave these two far far to much leeway. This is a terrible video.
It isn't an interview... It is a video created at the request of my viewers. The police explaining their powers as set out in the new legislation. You may not like what they have to say but sadly it is all backed up by the associated legislation.
Great information. Great video
Thanks for watching!
yup i agree if asked to land do it then talk and show ids not a hard task
How are the police capable of judging the airworthiness of an aircraft…
The police reps talk about Operator competence ? :is there any standard ie test for this as in this case how does one go from Starter say to Adequate competence is this Factual or merely in the eye of the Police operator
Great video!
Definitely something wrong there. The officer said that they needed the flyer's name and address in order to confirm that the operator ID is right. Except that the operator who owns the operator ID is not necessarily the same person as the flyer. For a 249g drone, the flyer doesn't need to be registered anywhere.
That’s what I thought, I purchased an under 249g drone on the understanding I did not require an operator licence, not that I intend to do anything untoward just being lazy. The anything with a camera is a little shady as I am a photographer and have a camera most days and there is no law saying I have to hand it over, most phones have cameras for gods sake!
@@TrogART The sun 250g drone needs an Operator ID, however, the Operator (owner and person responsible for the UAV) must be someone over the age of 18. That person has to be someone you know.
As the Remote Pilot of the aircraft, you only need to have read the aircraft's instruction manual. 👍🏻
You are correct that the operator and the pilot may be different people. However, in that case, the law gives the police the power to require the pilot to give them the details of the operator or whoever else let them use the drone. It is an offence for the pilot to refuse to give those details subject to a fine of up to £500
those two police were really dancing on the legislation , lets get it clear police must have reasonable suspicion of the opperator committing an offence first surly. as we've clearly seen on youtube and other platforms, the police clearly like to abuse these power. i do note want to be forced to stop something I have a perfect right to do, just because a policeman want to flex his powers! again more grounds for the police to abuse there powers. another point I would like to make, is how many of the police officers are trained enough to make an autoritive judgement that the drone is airworthy or not? again as seen on many platforms, the police barely know the drone legislation, let alone if a drone is fit to fly or now.
Do you think they could elaborate on the word airworthiness as I’m pretty sure no MOT is required on a drone so what do they close as worthiness?
Yea your going to get idiot officers confiscating drones because of a scratched prop especially if they don't like you
Hey Mark! Yes, it is on the list for expansion on. Thanks to you and others for raising it. Hope you are well.
Sounds like we are supposed to just bend over if a policeman asks...... Because we all know how brilliantly they are trained, and how fully they understand the little they have bothered to readup..... NOPE... If they expect me to stick to the law, I will expect them to do the same. I will not be giving up my rights, because of their ignorance.................
I’ll expect them to know the law too!
I'm curious how police officers are actually trained to "inspect" any drone for "airworthiness". Police frequently respond to a complaint without verifying if an offense has, is or is likely to be committed. Simply put, if you have a drone [in your possession] an officer can demand to "inspect" your drone and require flyer registration, ID and personal information without suspicion or cause. Know your rights and the laws.
They say the legislation is there to request you personal ID to check it corresponds with the operator ID (Around 8:30). What rubbish, as it don't have to be an individual that holds the operator ID for the drone. It could be a company that is the is holding the operator ID. So this would become an abuse of power on there part, I would suggest under legislation. Typical copper twisting legislation to there own ends.
I was thinking the same, there's no requirement that the flyer is the same person as the operator and the operator may not even be a person at all, so what are they verifying exactly?
A bit unfortunate about the "if it has a camera then" part. CAP722 says that if the aircraft is under 250g, the camera _does not capture information_ (record) and is only used for navigation & control then there is no need to register for a Flyer ID. And simply having one onboard *does not* by and of itself indicate the need for one, but sadly the attitude of these two officers is indicative of what you are likely to encounter: an immediate assumption and an opportunity if one is being sought to abuse their authority and harass legitimate fliers. And we know this is possible as is witnessed by the various YT videos from various 'auditors' et al.
Other than that though I thought that was pretty clear and it is helpful to know the exact legislation and especially that the police can order your aircraft to be landed but should not otherwise interfere with the safe flight.
So, 'Do as I say because I say so!'
I think the better known version is "Do as I say, not as I do". Either way I have unfortunately developed a mis-trust of the police, we know there are many good officers, but how do you know you have a good one and not a jumped up arsehole?
Question that should have been asked is if a police officer approaches you and asks you to land can you tell the officer to back off 30m as they don't automatically become an involved person just by approaching you
No. A police officer approaching is not included as an uninvolved person. They should however let you land safely etc.
@@Geeksvana As a GVC Pilot I believe they are uninvolved unless you have consented to them being involved and you have given them a safety briefing. So on that account they should move away to 30m until you have landed and gave the command Safe. However if you are doing nothing wrong then there is nothing to fear. I would just inform them that they are now in your control, but you will not be liable if they are injured in your landing area. Not all police are as polite as others. TBH if I am on a commercial shoot then I would be in no rush to land, but on saying that they would be talking with one of my crew. Remembering it is a serious offence to interrupt a pilot in flight. Mind I have never had any issues with police tbh :-)
My drone identifies as a kite.
Sadly I think it's only going to get more strict once we all have remoteid's broadcasting and prompting nearby police to investigate when its flagged...did remoteid's ever come up in discussions with the police officers?
If I am going to fly in an area where I know I may possibly be "stopped" by police then I just phone police first ad let them know where I will be and what I will be doing. I then get an incident number and if I am stopped I simply give them the incident number. This has happened a few times as I fly in areas for property and other things. I have never had an issue once I provide the incident number.
But would that conversation be in or out of cuffs?. IF WE'RE SPEAKING ABOUT REASONABLE Officers/people. Wouldn't it be best to stand by and observe and approach the pilot when he has finished the flight? Then, the danger is eliminated. I was just asking as I was under the belief that it was against the law to interfere with a pilot in flight. I may have got this mixed up with something else. I'm still just learning myself.
I see a problem with this legislation, If they need suspicion an offence has or is going to be committed to require you to land your drone as per schedule 8, but they don't require suspicion to inspect your flyer id, drone and or other relevant documentation as in schedule 9, which takes precedence? The second you land your drone you are then liable to schedule 9 and they don't need reasonable suspicion... this is contradictory to the schedule 8. Am I missing something here?
Is this any different in Scotland, I know some laws are different but not sure about this
I got a drone and I done all my drone exam and sin my drone id so if police a approach me. I show them the id on
caa (civil aviation
I get the legislation no problem. But 1. Most plod are clueless about drone laws and 2. some plod stretch 'reasonable grounds to the absolute limit. eg why section 44 was revoked because some plod were abusing it by coming up with all sorts of excuses to stop and search. Which links in again to potential abuse of powers, plod could make any drone pilot down their drone (yeah ok no dramas) but then say "I suspect your operator ID could be fake give me your full details. When you've done nothing illegal.
They should explain what the offence is before asking for personal details and not before.
I have a DJI Mini 4 PRO and fly it, but I just wanted to make sure I am right but where do I get my operator ID from please?
Just Google 'register my drone' and you will be taken to the CAA page to get your operator ID. You need to enter your email address, date of birth, name, address and payment details. You will receive your operator ID immediately.
Well after you cough up £10:33 per year 😉
Nice 🤝😎
Surely if the police have absolutely no idea if the drone you have flown or are flying has camera they can't just reasonably suspect you are committing an offence with zero evidence?
This is one of the outstanding issues from this content. We have another recording session coming soon where we will be putting these types of questions to some officers.
Most of the questions are around the accountability in terms of justification of actions etc.
@@Geeksvana OK, thanks, can't wait for the next session.
I'm sorry but I really dislike these two cops, especially the one on the right. They have a real complex and come across really badly.
They have a real problem with the space of drone flying and just want as much information.
I won't give my details unless you can specifically tell me why they have a suspicion of an offence then I am not engaging.
The reason we made this video is because so many people were completely unaware of the specific police powers around drone flight. They have more power over someone flying a drone than another person walking down the street. It is crazy but that is the legislation in place.
Silverfox, that wasn't the purpose of the video. That is for individuals to take a view on and get legal advice. This was about informing people of the legislation and what powers it specifically gives over drone use. People are so keen to comment and complain AFTER legislation comes in. Yet, hardly anyone comments or campaigns at the point these things can be changed.
My reading is that the first thing that has to happen is the police to remove themselves a safe distance so operator can safely land drone. Police think they can walk up to you and instruct you which is illegal as they are knowingly entering the danger area (whatever the CAA decide is the seperation distance this week)..
There is nothing illegal about approaching a drone pilot. The oweness is on us as operators to keep the distance required or end the flight.
Police are not required to keep any separation distance. They are not not included as a uninvolved person.
Although I agree with the points in the video I disagree that you should have to ground your drone just because an officer tells you without them telling you why they reasonably expect you to do so first or what crime they suspect you may have committed. 99% of officers don’t have a clue about the legislation. I wouldn’t give no officer my personal Id unless they had genuine concern I had committed an offence.
I agree it seems unreasonable to me. It doesn't seem to fit that they can tell you after landing etc. Wouldn't take long to explain prior to landing.
@@Geeksvana You seem to have changed your tune a bit. Why did you not challenge the officers at the time? I think and auditor has already proved it he merely asked the officer if it was a lawful order to land his drone the officer could not reply. In the end he landed it when he wanted to.
@LEGAL ACTIVITY my 'tube' hasn't changed. I didn't challenge the officers at the time because they have the right to require landing if the suspect a crime. The part I agreed with is that they should tell you the crime before landing, however they are not required to do so.
For the final time... this was not a debate video. It was a comprehensive explanation of police powers. There is nothing to challenge if they have the powers.
@@Geeksvana We shall agree to disagree, but great debate.
It makes perfect sense to land the drone and then have that conversation. For goodness sake, we are getting to the point of not wanting to be told or asked anything. The Police are not always the enemy here.
I see they say that you need to have the operato ID and have that operator ID conect to the pilot flying the drone and that they have the right to demand the identity of the pilot to see if it is a match to the operator ID . but my understanding is that's not true . You can alow a different pilot to fly your drone , you can lend your drone to somebody else. And if your drone is under 250g then the person you have lent your drone to doesn't need even a flyer ID . If your drone is over 250g then the pilot would need a flyer ID . But the pilot and operators ID doesn't need to be the same person and the operator ID person doesn't have to be supervising the flight either. Does the police drone /operator pilot change the operator ID on their drones ever shift when a different pilot takes the drone out ? I don't think so .
Can you clarify this point with the police. There still seems to be some confusion and they contradicted themselves at the start and at the end of your interview on this point .
I mean the camera on the drone has to be registered to somebody and have that ID on the drone but that person doesn't have to be the same person flying the drone ? Correct ? And if it's under 250g and no flyer ID is needed then the person flying the drone does not need to identify themselves to the police ? So with under 250g drones the DJ audit type people are right to say they don't need to Identify themselves to the police and only show the drone itself is in compliance?
I don't think that's what they're saying - I think they agree with what you've just said...
Sorry mate you have that wrong. You only need an Operator ID to own & fly the sub 250g drone. But anyone else using it requires a flyer ID.
Hey Drone Tour DS! Although I am fairly well versed in drone rules, I am not legally qualified nor a trained police officer, so my thoughts are only that of a journalist specialising in the field of drones.
In my opinion, based on the legislation specific to drones but also taking into account wider laws - a police officer would not be able to REQUIRE you to provide your personal details under the Sch 9 Para 1 power (to require evidence of pilot competency) if you are flying a sub-250g drone in unrestricted airspace within the Open category which is not owned by you and therefore displays someone else's Operator ID, unless they had Reasonable Grounds to Believe that you were indeed the Operator despite what you tell them (even if that was subsequently found not to be correct).
This doesn't mean they are not allowed to ask for your details but means no offence is committed if you refuse. However, this is only related to the Para 1 power requiring evidence of Pilot competency, and not other conduct or issues that might be covered under other legislation.
For instance, they WOULD be able to require you to provide your personal details if allowed by other powers, whether from elsewhere in ATMUA Schedules 8/9 or under other laws. Hope this helps!
@@chriscole3624that’s not true Chris. Point 31 of the “Getting Operator ID” section on the CAA’s Register Drone website specifically addresses this point, and states that “If your drone or model aircraft is below 250g or C0 class, the person flying it does not need a flyer ID”. I did try and post a link but YT removed my comment 🤷🏻♂️
BIG THUMBS UP ! :o)
Dont look right to me hw can they ask for your operator id and your name address to see if they're the same if your friend can have your drone
If you ask what crime is being committed or has been they cant do things on assumptions of something you haven't done
@@kernowradio that's how I've enterpreted it as well, more reason to stay out of sight sadly which you shouldn't of course.
So flying a drone is a crime?
@@johnmcc3156 Nope, but a good way for police to ID you for not breaking the law!
Was waiting for the question on the review of data on the SD card? Is that covered?
Yes under seizure powers. So the police can only seize if they believe an offence has occurred. So no random powers to just inspect SD card etc for no reason. Is that the basis of your question? Sorry if I have wrong end.
@@Geeksvana perfect answer. Thank you
damn im new to drones and this has totally messed my head up
Thanks for drilling down the clarity of your questioning is really helpful.
Hey Dante in Chaos, Forever! Thank you, appreciate the feedback.
what if im the flyer, but not the operator , why should i give their details, and do i need to know there details ???
This has been a common question, and we asked it during a recording of an updated police Q&A last week. Video will be live on the channel soon.
Hi Sean, I’m slightly confused. I know it’s probably a good idea to land your drone when asked to by police, but I think I’m right in thinking that the police need to reasonably suspect a crime has or is about to be committed.
However, they can demand your details etc without any suspicion and can “inspect your drone” without suspicion.
My query is.. surely if they are allowed to inspect the drone without suspicion then you’re going to have to land it first.. but requiring you to land needs suspicion of a crime?
I’m sure you can see why I’m a little confused 🤔
the police have the right to see your "licence" documents to proficientcy. now if you was to try and show them while the drone is in the air, you would be commiting an offence, not being fully focused on flying. however the police cannot inspect a drone unless they suspect its being used for a crime. much like driving a car you can be stopped at any time and youre required to show your license they cannot search your car without reasonable suspicion. and the same as your driving license, your drone proficency documents have 7 days to provide it at a police station if you dont have it on you.
if you have an open class (sub 250g) drone, wear your flyer id on a lanyard . if the police arrive flash them that, and they cant force you to land unless they can give you a specific crime youre commiting.
@@6kenyonm Thanks for the explanation, but it goes against what was said in the video (& the downloadable sheet, which we can print off)
As well as being on my (sub 250g) drone, I’ve got my Operator ID on a plastic card (a lanyard is a good idea tho) going by the above video.. the law has changed in that the police can ask for your Operator ID and your details if they see you flying a drone.. or have just been flying.. or are about to take off. They no longer need to suspect you of anything.
The same applies if they ask to inspect your drone.
However, they can only ask you to land it if they suspect you of an offence…. so you can see the confusion. They can’t require that you land it, but they can require to inspect it? If this is correct then something’s not right.
Steve, the interpretation you have explained in your last comment matches the explanation from the officers and the explanation of the new police powers in the legislation, (linked in the description). One of the reasons we made this video, was due to my surprise at just how specific the new powers were.
@@Geeksvana Thanks Sean 👍 Still doesn’t make complete sense tho, in that they can inspect a drone without any suspicion but they can’t ask you to land it unless they suspect anything. How can they inspect it if it’s in the air? 🤔 unless of course they mean they will inspect it later?
Thanks, Steve
@Steve-bq5on It isn't very clean, is it? There is a legal line that seems to be crossed when the drone is in the air, then requiring a suspicion of a crime. This is provably a complication of the ANO.
Currently, officers are advised to wait until the drone lands. That way they have so many powers! Even if they suspect a drone has been flown. They do not even have to have seen the drone etc.
Not a "Drone Unit" but a "Counter Drone unit" The name doesn't give me any confidence.
👍 the words say it " Counter Drone Unit" = anti drone unit.
If you verify the pilot licence with the organisation that produces and issues them, then that should be enough. Your personnel details shouldn't be a factor unless they do catch you doing something wrong. It smells fishy, and the average police officer aren't drone engineers. I can see these new powers being abused and used to stop or harass certain types of drone flyers.
As a retired police officer I can guarantee most officers won’t have a clue about drone legislation let alone care. They will be far too busy with shit like Cps files and other things
What if they are flying over a police station ? I personally don't think it should be allowed but a lot of people disagree on if it is OK or not ?
nice work Sean; always with some good questions.
Thank you sir! Appreciate it.
@@Geeksvana I assume the below about winning a prize is a scam
Hey Lozzza. Yes, sadly something youtube are yet to stop.
Pity the answers were very very broad.
OK, lets look at it like this, an officer of the law comes up to you under the assumption you are breaking the law? 2 questions the copper only needs to ask, is that a sub 250g and have you got an flyer ID, they know themselves if you in a fly or no fly zone and they can see if you are flying too heigh or too far away, or am I missing something?
The key point made by PC Halliwell around reasonable grounds is that the officer would know the law…there are many examples where the officers clearly do not know the legislation, get the wrong information from a Google search and therefore have no reasonable grounds. The huge gap in basic knowledge held by many officers is something that needs to be addressed nationwide.
It’s not comparable to driving at 60 on a road. It’s more comparable to walking in the street and being asked for your ID. A car doesn’t drive itself like a drone hovers with accuracy.
There is a comparison with motoring in terms of there being specific legislation and police powers for dealing with both motoring and drone flight, neither of which could be used with someone walking down the street. There are a few circumstances where a suspected drone flight give extra powers than a random member of public walking down the street.
It's more the equivalent of walking the street and being spotted carrying a knife (any knives including legal ones) and being asked for id.
'an officer will reasonably explain' this guy needs to watch more police interactions with drone pilots, most are just arrogant bullies who want to force there views on their victim. God help us when they see this piece of legislation explained to them.
This great to know all of this and trouble is the way alot of the auditor's with drones and trying to push boundaries of the law and for reaction purposes, is going end up with tighter laws, making it alot more less fun for hobbies flyer. Even tho I say this, my local police came round to me,about me and my friend flying and they had no idea about the law what so ever and as always just stated laws of drones over 250g and when I tried to explain in a nice calm way they where wrong, all I can say they where not best happy and wouldn't listen. I did see one Auditor flying his drone and the way he was treated ( news now Yorkshire) was unbelievable and almost torcher. I've always give the police my full respect but when you see things like the way he was treated, you can understand why audits happen. I'd like to see all police given a course in regulations around drones. Also how they react with members of the public. Many moons ago I used to work at Heathrow and we had a police bobby whoever walk around get to know everyone and always had time to chat to anyone. This guy was so well respected and there was hardly ever any crime, because of his respect he'd earnt. How things have changed.
Hey Christine! Thank you for taking the time to comment and share your experiences. I think your views will match those of a lot of people. With drones still being new technology I personally don't expect every officer to know but I would like to think they would verify the facts around the rules before they acted.
We share a lot of the same thoughts on a natural desire to respect police tinged with concern about some of the events we view online. Hopefully, with education of officers the situation will improve.
Sorry to hear about your personal experience as well. That does not sound good.
Not all officers know the rules so if they suspect a crime or illegal flight , how do we answer these questions if the officers don’t know the caa regs
Hey Robert! That is a significant issue isn't it. They are working on it and I have a video on this topic coming very soon.
@@Geeksvana not all officers will know the rules or legislation on drones unless they themselves are drone flyers or interested in drone use , I can’t see every officer being told all the CAA regs , it’s like giving all officers a gun instead of being an AR officer , just my take on this subject at the minute
The body language with these police officers seems very arrogant. It looks like they believe everyone else should do as they say and if anyone questions this they are being "confrontational".
No wonder they haven't got time to catch criminals. What qualifications do they have to check a drone? for airworthiness?
I don't like the way they keep using the word "comply" either. Like I've if you're 100% in the right and the police have no clue you still must comply
I cannot find anywhere in the legislation that the constable has any power to demand your ID as in name and address. They are only allowed to ask for Flyer ID/competency. I've gone through schedule 8 and can't find anything anywhere so can someone highlight where that requirement is written? (We all know the police are OBSESSIVE about getting your ID even if there is no requirement for it.)
Hey! It is within schedule 9 paragraph 1,2 and 5. But there are other areas the legislation provides powers to gain personal information. From 7:40 the video explains this and places the legislation on screen.
@@Geeksvana It might be that I am dumb, but nowhere in Schedule 9 Para 1,2 and 5 does it ever mention an obligation to provide personal ID to a police officer? Unless it's written in some sort of code that I am unaware of.
@mymobile5014 modern legislation is often worded very loosely, with open language. This gives authorities more flexibility and stops people arguing, etc. It isn't a direction I think is healthy for the public.
This legislation is very much along those lines. When it states to an officer's satisfaction or similar, it is basically giving them full authority. So, for an officer to be satisfied that you are the person who holds the op or flyer ID, they can require you to produce your details.
There are also specific mentions such as Schedule 9, paragraph 2 - 'The constable may require P to provide such information as the constable considers reasonable as to the identity of the person or persons who are or were the remote pilot or remote pilots of the unmanned aircraft'.
Paragraph 4 confirms the offence: 'P fails to comply with a requirement imposed by a constable under this paragraph to provide information as to the identity of a person'.
So the entirety of the Act provides a LOT of powers if a drone is even suspected to be involved. It still shocks me a little when I return to this legislation.
@@Geeksvana I've managed to find it now but thanks for your help.
And yes this is my problem: I have paid for a flyer and operator ID. The key thing being "ID". Why do I then need to produce my citizen ID which is nothing to do with flying a drone? I have my operator ID, my info is on the drone itself, why do they do a third check to get my personal ID?
I have emailed Liberty to ask what happens to my data if they force me to give ID. Does it stay on a database or something? I think there needs to be some lobbying because I am very uncomfortable giving police my whole personal ID, when I have the ID paid for to fly the drone anyway.
It's just police trying to trawl data at every opportunity and is an infringement of our civil rights I think.
@mymobile5014 flying a drone is not deemed a right, it is a privilege. You are required to show competency to operate the drone and the only way to do that, is to provide your details. How far these powers go is the main reason I made this video. Most people still do not realise.
It’s not sub 249g, it’s sub 250g
If you're doing nothing wrong then just land, talk to the officers who will tell you why they asked you to land and then if what they suspected was not correct they'll let you carry on again.
Seems fairly simple to me?
An officer can say I suspect a violation. They can always say that and there's nothing you can do about it. You are guilty and nothing you say will change that. It's too easy for them to keep you from flying.