The Wonderful and Brutal World of 18xx Games
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- #boardgames #review
#18xx
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Bessie timestamps:
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15:37 DADDY PAY ATTENTION TO ME!!!
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I'm watching this while I'm on a train. I feel thematically relevant !
You get 2 bonus points when scoring!
Experienced player here, so take this for what's it's worth. I know an intro video isn't for me, even if I'm honestly happy to have watched it! So thanks! To the comment about games playing out in much the same way once you get over the initial flush of excitement - I do think there's some truth in that. I'd also say, however, that there tends to be a bit of a dip. It goes from (1) Crazy excitement! to (2) Oh, this feels a bit samey; I think I have it pretty much down, and then back up to (3) Oh, oh, I see - I didn't think you could do that! From there, the excitement comes from the multitude of variables interacting with each other. Even when you think you know what's coming, the details of _how_ it plays out are wild enough to be exciting - just in a different sort of way. I don't want to oversell this point, but for those interested enough to stick with a title past "the dip," there are rewards!
The different games have such different dynamics with many detailed differences between them, that some of them will suit some people more than others. I found the 22 family a bit to be un interactive and puzzly so that once I "solved" them it did feel samey. With 30 & 46 they are familiar and I can mess about trying things out, especially since we can knock out 46 in a couple of hours.
Also the "never buy 2 shares" thing is not a hard and fast rule, it's more when can I take the risk of owning more than one share.
It's samey as Chess is samey right, but chess has been played for hundreds of years.
Great video! It’s great seeing your opinions on all the different titles you tried, plus the rulebook discussion. I’m also happy that you two seem to have similar taste in 18xx games as me (I only played 1846 once and didn’t particularly enjoy it, although a lot of people still seem to love it).
We had a great time with 18Chesapeake as a first 18xx. It was easy to teach ourselves from the very clear, short rules (though graphics-light, as you said). Anyone who has learned a heavier euro could easily deal with this. Try it!
What's a heavier euro in your oppinion? Does Terra Mystica or Terraforming Mars count? And if so, would you recommend to jump directly into 18Chesapeake or should there be another "in-between" game to play first?
Honestly I think a great intro is Power Grid. I’ve heard it said that it’s the most non train, train game. I love 18xx by the way. Have about five in my collection.
@@imilegofreak terra mystica is a lot heavier than terraforming mars if you only have played terra mystica you are more than able to play an 18xx but start with the basic donc start with something like 1862 get experience first
The internet needed this video! I’ve been curious about 18XX for a long time and this was a great overview, thank you!
I usually look at board game videos to select games to buy. I usually never look at the same video twice for obvious reasons. I am currently looking at this video for a third time and I really enjoy it. They really really make quality videos!
I've watched this several times, and it is just a fantastic board game video! One of the best. Kudos on the great work!
I can appreciate one little comment in this video “loads of experienced players fighting vehemently to keep aspects of the game that limit new players.” I am a relatively younger (40) hex and counter war gamer. I find this sentiment among most players of games first developed in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. It’s 2024, while these games are fantastic in their own right, there’s newer ways to arrange information in a way that will entice people to play. Many of these rulebooks, 18xx included, go off the basis that everyone learns information by having one linear kind of brain and not a spatial learner. And when you’re a spatial learner, long books of text are tough to get through.
Apart from a unique genre and other characteristics, 18XX really has a well balanced pace in tabletop experience. You do not wait too long in between each action (unless you manage no companies). You do not wait too long only to find out you do not have much meaningful things to do. The game progresses steadily for each round to feel a bit more complicated than the previous. Of course it depends on who you play with. Sometimes you group builds a good railway empire and network with far reach. Sometimes you group compete so fiercely by placing their stations so close. Sometimes you group advances so fast that the game ends before you even realise. It is a good game which allows possibilities. There can be optimal strategy but that is not quite important here.
This is it, this is the best board game review ever made. This is equal to, and perhaps surpasses, anything SU&SD have ever done, and I mean that as the highest praise for both NPI and SU&SD. Thank you so much for putting this together, Efka & Elaine & accomplices.
SU&SD's Go review is very close in my opinion :)
You prove to be among the best, time and time again. Thank you.
BTW you've rekindled my love for 1830, which I last played 25 years ago.
Closest I’ve gotten my friends to 18XX is “Trick of the Rails” - a kickstarter card game that still uses stock, but it is a tiny box, fast card game, and not a map-tile kind of game.
It took 3-4 full games before I fully grasped the how to win of this genre. My favorite genre now for three years. Well worth the investment for board gamers into heavy strategy.
Well. That was an entertaining video. I am now very much secure in the knowledge that I never, ever want to play one of these games. I am fairly sure I checked out on the rules and heard white noise for a few segments before tuning back in. You made it as digestible as possible, but it all just sounded like gobbledygook to me. I'm sure these are fascinating creatures to some people but not for me I think - good job putting in all the work for this though was a very interesting watch about a part of the board gaming world I knew little about.
Because Of Dragons I felt exhausted just watching the video. Not for me.
I feel similarly. I mean, I find the arithmetic in Power Grid too tedious. Seems like a bad sign.
I agree. The video is wonderful for letting me know what's involved in an 18XX game. And because of that clarity I know I will never, ever, want to play one.
This might be your best video. I will never tough an 18XX game but learning the basics of them beyond just "trains" was fascinating.
Really fascinating deep dive on this part of the industry I had no idea about!
I've played 18xx over 150 times. This is a great summary. This is the mountain climbing of boardgaming. It makes no sense to spend your free time with something so taxing, but it's so exciting!
Oh, and regarding the dip in interest after getting to know the game a little bit better - this depends on the group: after a while players will be able to read if they're on the firm path to a defeat and will start doing wild things again to shake things up.
@@BCKBCK or someone comes back to the group after playing with new people at a con--man, will that shake things up!
I just wanted to say that I bought 1830 and played with my girlfriend and a couple of friends. One of them loves boardgames, just like me, while both my girlfriend and his just kind of play for the social interaction. The four of us absolutely loved it and even the girls were excited to meet again next weekend to play and said this one was great. Thanks for the amazing video!
Thanks for doing this, Efka and Elaine. Wonderfully done.
Thank you for all of the time and effort you put into diving into the 18xx genre and making the video. Entertaining and informative, as always!
The interesting thing about 18XX: there is NO luck other than determining initial player order. So in theory, since you have perfect knowledge of all the game info, if you win or lose it is ALL on your ability to cajole, influence or read other players to make your best possible response.
I'm absolutely loving the awareness regarding the board games themes as of late!
Great video, thanks for posting this. I printed and crafted a copy of '1889 Shikoku Railways' and when I got to the rulebook my brain melted and the whole project 'derailed'. I know this video wasn't intended as tutorial, but now a lot of the pieces seem to click into place better. I'm willing to give it another go. (Also very interesting to hear it may get a new KS edition.)
Glad it helped! That rulebook is not friendly.
This video is really wonderful. I've long been curious about this branch in our hobby and this take was thorough, informative & enjoyable. Props, guys!
Great review! I've always wanted to know more about the 18XX games.
Such a wide-ranging, interesting insightful well-produced review of so many intensely complex games! It’s obvious the incredible time and effort you’ve put in, very impressive! I’m a gamer but was clear from nearly the start I’m never going to play these games and I STILL watched the whole piece because the story and discussion was so compelling.
Just have to comment, this is the best board game video made so far in the history of internet
This video convinced me to try 1830 and really helped me learn to play it.
thanks!
Oh no! I think my friends would be really overwhelmed by these game yet I still wanna play them. Especially 1844 | 1854, cuz I'm swiss and stuff.
Yeah, definitely don't start with that one.
Where do you live?
Respect this, a ton of work and a real down to earth review!
Good on you for the Glenn Miller background music.
@Abizaas ua-cam.com/video/V2aj0zhXlLA/v-deo.html
@Abizaas Music near 5:30 I'm pretty sure is just stock music.
Amazing review and expose on 18xx games. I definitely fall into the category of knowing about it but mostly ignoring it. I tend to gravitate toward other games so getting a primer on this was helpful. I'd definitely more interested in trying one of these now.
awesome video! I just started playing 1830 and I love it! Its hard to find these games especially in India but I am really looking forward to acquiring a few in the coming time.
Piyush, 1853 and the upcoming 1947 from Aleph Game Studio are both set in India.
I would recommend caution with 1853. It's very much the marmite of 18xx, a lot of people including myself found it overly long and dull
Just an FYI. There is white noise in the background of when Elaine talks about the games in the end. That can be filtered out with a free program like Audacity
Another brilliant look into a genre of board games I've heard much about but haven't had the courage to try! Perhaps soon I will...
NPI is getting better and better, thank you guys!! I have been in the hobby for about 8 years now, and was always wondering about these.Amazing video!
I will almost certainly never ever play an 18xx game. But even to me this video was amazingly interesting. Thanks for making it, and making it so well.
I see so after I become a master of Arkwright I should move onto 19xx
Thanks for another deep and thoughtful review
BRAVO!! Standing Ovation. 👏
I got my train nut dad into boardgames by giving him 1830 for his birthday. Soon he'd discovered there was more out there, and he bought *everything*.
My personal favourite is 18EU, which plays pretty quickly (relative speaking of course) while feeling far more epic than that. It starts by auctioning a whopping 15 minor companies which (unlike privates) do run trains, and can later merge into major (regular) companies.
Recently we got my 11 year-old son into Steam Over Holland, the latest of many, many attempts at an 18xx game in Netherland. My son loves it and is excellent at it, once even beating my dad (now a veteran with decades of experience) in a one-on-one game because my dad foolishly thought he could operate 3 companies at the same time. (That kind of hubris deserves to be punished, of course.) I think this might mean Steam Over Holland could be a fairly suitable beginner game. Its only real downside is that the title doesn't start with '18'.
Your version of 1830 looks gorgeous, by the way. Totally different from the various copies I've played. It's worth noting that most 18xx games are not as aggressive as 1830, which is among the most aggressive games in the genre. For a completely opposite experience, try the very German 1835.
Also, in our group, it's not remotely true that nothing happens during the last couple of operating round; we keep optimising routes until the very end, trying to squeeze that last drop of money out of our 5-train + D-train combination, frying our brain in the process. Running two permanent trains per company is frequently key to victory and a splitting headache.
This is one of those videos that stay around for a very long time.
This was an incredibly thorough, interesting and even handed review. Well done!
Never did I think I would see the state of Michigan multiple times in a NPI review
Since this video came out a more recent release of Shikoku 1889 has come out that actually contains a really good rulebook that is new player friendly.
I'm really excited for my copy to arrive.
@@NoPunIncluded the production quality is amazing. I just got my copy yesterday.
@@NoPunIncluded Did your copy arrive already? Would you now recommend Shikoku 1889 as a good entrypoint to the genre? Maybe even more so than 18Chesapeake? Great video by the way, I was trying to get more info about the 18xx and this is the most comprehensive video resource I found so far.
Yeah Shikoku 1889 is definitely the current best intro.
When you're asking about learning 1889, you should give out the address for the website: 18xx.games. Lets you play an online implementation well, I taught my friends how to play this and very much enjoy it.
Also has built-in tutorials.
Thank you for a very informative video on this genre of games. It really helped me clarify if this type of game is for me and my game groups. I especially appreciated the discussion at the end of the video about the social and cultural challenges og games based on pre-civil war railways in the USA.
How do I nominate the 15:37 time stamp as the greatest 5-second long edit in NPI history? I’m dying over here.
Man, where are those poker chips from? They're gorgeous. I need them for Power Grid.
Iron Clays by Roxley
Iron clays aren’t cheap, but they are really nice. I also use mini chips. Less clutter on the company charters.
Funny they should mention Rounders as there are brief moments where he sounds like Teddy KGB.
Kind of surprised you didn’t mention 18Lilliput.
High highly disagree with the statement that 18xx are the height of boardgame complexity. I’d say that even Vital Lacerda games are more complex than 18xx games, including 1862.
Excellent work!
Great video :)
Poseidon is a good way to start in the system
really interesting video, thanks for this!
If the theme of railroad building isn't your thing but you still want stock investment and business operation, check out City of the Big Shoulders (which now has an implementation on Board Game Arena!)
There's also Power Grid - The Stock Companies, which adds those elements to your normal Power Grid game.
This is true; however, note that both of these games lack the obsolescence/rusting/"train death" mechanism which was rightly highlighted in this video as being one of the critical features of 18xx games, driving a lot of the tension in the key decisions. Without having to deal with equipment becoming obsolete I found both City of the Big Shoulders and Power Grid Stock Companies to be ultimately much less interesting than 18xx games - the stakes are lower and the play more linearly progressive, with fewer dramatic moments.
I love what I've always called "train games" - by which I mean crayon-rail pickup-and-deliver games. Over the years I've heard/read a lot of great things about the 18xx "train games", so when a friend invited me to learn/play 1840, I took him up on it. I didn't really like it much, because to me it isn't a "train game". I consider it (and by extension I assume all the 18xx games) to be an economic game that just happens to be about railroads. The train theme was almost completely absent except for company names and putting track tiles on the board. I'm happy that so many people love 18xx games, but I'll stick to my "train games".
I came here from 18 India. Add this version to the list!
I use poker chips with no values printed on them. Depending on the game i use a cheat sheet: RED=20, WHITE=1, e.t.c
So i don't need a ton of poker chips to cover all different 18xx games
Great video. I've always wanted to get into those games.Now I have the confidence to step up to the challenge and be the robber baron I know I was born to be. Side note what poker chips were you using ?
Roxley Iron Clays, they‘re telling at 6:46
Ahhhhh, the train death debacle for neophites not used to playing transport simulations... "You should've saved those dolleridoos mate! It is not my fault that you have been splurging cash around instead of starting to save from 12 turns ago. We all knew that this day was coming..."
I wonder if this attitude is why no one plays these boardgames with me anymore...
1870 represent. Best of the 18XX games!
'70 is amongst my favorites as well.
Take that back about the shipping forecast!
Can you please do a different video about 18 XXX games, which is what I originally thought this video was going to be about when I clicked on it?
Love Baltimore and Ohio Great intro to genre
Have you played Irish Gauge or Ride the Rails from Capstone Games? Those are simplified train games with a significantly cut down play time. I'm wondering if they would be a good entry way to get players familiar with 18xx mechanics.
We made a video on Irish Gauge and we talk about Ride the Rails on our podcast.
32:40 note that DTG claims 7-11 months but hasn't actively produced a game for the public in years. Many people have orders over 7 years old at this point. It's been taken up by Golden Spike Games and AAG mainly, but I don't think either do 1889.
Useful information! Golden Spike does seem to list 1889 but the wait time on their website is even longer.
@@NoPunIncluded Yeah unfortunately I asked John Templin to change or update that 7-11 month thing like 5 years ago when he just stopped making them as they mislead new players, but he flat out refused. It's still there, still confusing and frustrating people. It's too bad because DTG was an incredible service before 18xx started getting big these past few years, but now it's doing a disservice to the community.
Excellent video guys! This really got me interested in the genre.
I wanted to know if you could help me.
I was about to order a copy of 18chesapeake and then I realized that the KS for1889 will be opening a late pledge. Have you by any chance read the updated version of the 1889 rulebook and, if so ,would you recommend me to wait for the LP or order 18Chesapeake instead.
Thx in advance =)
(sorry for the bad english :c)
Translate
i have not read it, but i heard good things about it from folks on our discord
Fantastic video
So how does this compare to Irish gauge? Is Irish gauge like a super simple version?
Irish Gauge is similar in that it has stocks and you have train companies and you lay track. The similarities sort of end there. In fact, Irish Gauge belongs to an altogether different genre of train games called "cube rails." If you want a helpful point of comparison, you could treat Irish Gauge as a very strong abstraction of the general scope of what 18xx games are trying to get you to feel.
@@NoPunIncluded oh, cool! That's a very helpful explanation! Thank you so much!
@@Daye04 and irish guage plays at only 1 hour.
For cube rail games that brush up against aspects of the 18XX genre, I'd recommend Irish Gauge, Chicago Express, and Paris Connection. There are other cube rails games that lean more to the "run good companies" aspects of some 18XX games (such as 1846), for which I'd recommend the newly-published Ride the Rails.
One of my favorite “cube rail” games is SOO Line, but it’s really quirky.
Engagement for the engagement god!
airecon yellow mug......awesome
Baltimore and Ohio is a great intro to the genre. It's on the lighter side.
Fascinating video. I dug into 18xx through 1846 and haven't expanded outwards since. But really enjoyed it. Interesting to see that you were disappointed by it, I wonder how I will react to other ones moving forward.
“Floppy jalopy” is my new pr0n name. 💁🏻
That was a fantastic video which touched a raw nerve...sort of always wanted to dive into the pornography of 18XX games but wasn't sure if I could muster the energy to learn the rules and then find people willing to play the game. However, you have convinced me to buy 1830, and then attempt to find players...in a kind of social experiment way!
Hairy Dongle - check out 18Chesapeake on 18xx.games as a good intro.
Whereabouts are you in the world? In all likelihood there will be a group that plays reasonably nearby.
Where do I buy Chesapeake? Searching for it on the internet has been more mentally taxing than running a train company
all-aboardgames.com/
TTS is great for 18xx games. I know a lot of people who use specific websites to play 18xx, but for me with all the scripting in TTS modules, it made the game way more pleasant.
Those websites will do a lot of that actions for you but they don't give you that tactile feel of actually playing a game.
Just received For-Ex. The game plays like an 18XX minus the trains.
If you want an 18xx experience without the trains, check out Rolling Stock Stars from All-Aboard Games.
What were the recommended poker chips?
Fantastic video. Thank you for your hard work.
My brain is wired in a way that I’m simply not capable of grasping stock market games. There is something about the abstraction (indirection?) of how your fortunes are tied to company fortunes that throws me off even in simple systems (e.g. Mac Gerdts’ Imperial or the cube rail games), and the 18xx games are so, so much more complicated. Forget even the most rudimentary strategies, it’s already the basic cause and effect relationships that elude me.
This video is further reinforcement that the one handholding session of 18xx years ago was very likely representative of the genre to me as the horrible experience that it was (I’ve forgotten the name of the game, but it wasn’t considered a beginner friendly 18xx title). In this FOMOtastic hobby of ours, I can only be thankful when a well crafted take like this has the effect of telling me ”this is not for you”.
How do you like them iron clays?
Where does one get those chips?
Also, if this gets anyone interested, there is a playlist of dice tower videos that have been really helpful for me to understand thegame better: ua-cam.com/play/PLOlRvTbmD6tJCzjOr2XGEwFMll79J58zv.html
Amazing video! Thanks for the insights!
I have watched your videos on The Arkham Horror Card Game and Gloomhaven, now you drop this - extensive knowledge of 18xx? Where on earth did you find the time, I'm staggered! I bought 1846 but sold it without playing it after finding it too daunting.
Can’t wait for now to the the next area lacking coverage, war games. 😉😃
Commenting because this is a good video
I wonder why it's not adapted as videogame.
Brilliant.
Is there any Training I need to learn to play?
It's all on rails once you learn the rules :) (this is just a pun, not actually reflective of my opinion of the games. They are some of the most open games I've ever played)
@@johnathanrhoades7751 how do i know when i reach the end of the line?
Cine Dave When the game runs out of steam for you
@@johnathanrhoades7751 i guess ill have to buy a ticket to ride
LOL i dont want my trains to be floppy jalloy
Is this suppose to show the 'wonderful' side as well? All I heard was make random choices and hope for the best or spend hundreds of hours previously and just know from experience.
Not to mention "I remember a stupid thing I did" as something memorable is just plain sad, I'm all for paradox style micromanagement and minute details but holy frak there is far too much mention of random chance this, random chance that, hope, wait 3 hours and find out...
oh no another type of boardgames to obsess over
This video absolutely sold me on buying the Iron Clays from Roxley. Sadly until an 18xx game comes along with a manual that isn't physically painful, I want to say that I'm gonna give it a pass. I'm lying to myself, of course, I'm still going to try 1830 at some point.
18Chesapeake would be the game for you, and even if you can't find it or don't want it, you may find it's rulesbook the best to begin with. It's publicly available.
I don't agree on the criticism of the 18Chesapeake rulebook. It has pictures, asides, and is very carefully written. The best of the 18xx rulebooks and at least as good as many eurogame rulebooks I've read.
try 18Chesapeake on 18xx.games - it has rule enforcement so you can't go wromng rules-wise. The rulebook is pretty straightforward - better than many eurogame rulebooks I've read.
Best advice I can give is watch a Heavy Cardboard teach. Then you don’t even need the manuals.
Sooooooooo.....no solo-mode?
18xx games essentially thrive off player interaction - solo mode isn't really a thing and it's recommended to play with at least three players
1862 has a solo mode
As intimidating as 18XX rules seem to look, as the video states, they're intuitive and easy taken step by step. If you can play Power Grid, basic 18xx like 1830 isn't really that far ahead in rules complexity. Lacerda Games and several heavy euros are far more fiddly and complicated. Teaching 18xx to a casual gamer surprisingly, was faster than teaching Terraforming Mars. Not even mentioning how long it took to teach a table Root, Vast, Feudum, or a Phil Eklund game.
It’s not universal though. I’ve had no issues with Lacerda titles and other heavy stuff, but I am completely unable to grok how stock market games work in general, 18xx in particular. I’m trying to get to grips with simpler stuff like Ride the Rails, but so far every stock market game has been an exercise in frustration and not knowing what the right move is on 90% of my turns.
@@jklaiho Ah, you're talking about strategic complexity, I was more referring to mechanical & rules complexity.
1889 rulebook got roasted... ha ha