Dev History w/
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- Опубліковано 2 кві 2024
- Max Derrat @maxderrat / @maxderrat has joined us to discuss Planescape Tormentäs development history. This game had some fascinating things happen behind the scenes that most people are entirely unaware of. Also, big huge thank you to Mr Edders 123 @MrEdders123 / @mredders123 for being such a beast. Check out how wild this game was to make before we step into the first act of the game next week. Enjoy the comments!
Time Codes:
1.
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Thanks for the plug! Made me feel very smug 😁 Just to clarify the design doc thing - I'm not sure if the violence/edgy aspect was from Avellone, it may have been from some of the other (especially younger) members of the team. Also the language/tone was (it's been implied) very consciously written that way to appeal to the execs/marketing department, and based on feedback from some of Black Isle's upper management. It's in line with how Interplay's other games of the era were marketed, and matches Colin McComb's description of the Planescape King's Field design doc. 😇
Thanks for shouting me out at the intro, guys!
If ever there was a game to which an exception to a three episode format would be warranted, this would be it.
Yep, the fact they kickstarted their new format on what's probably their most dense game yet is an.. interesting, if not bold move lol. Especially since the episodes seem to be under an hour and a half compared to their 2-4 hour long discussions of the past.
(1) Chris Avellone is really a beast. I really recommend the Interview "Tales of Torment," an in-depth two-part retrospective interview that goes into detail on development history, why Planescape, and the contributions of the individual designers.
According to Chris McComb, Chris Avellone "had at least a broad outline of the entire game from start to finish, with all of the major characters sketched out" by the time he joined the project. The rest of the team "added minor characters" and "fleshed out the stuff he couldn't get to."
Chris Avellone did "50%" of Planescape by himself, while working on Fallout 2, despite having seven other developers on his team. That man has been described as "prolific".
Another point of note is that he often does deep research into existing franchises (Planescape, Star Wars, Fallout etc.,) and creates characters that act as his "voice" for all of his critiques with the setting. For example, the character Kreia in *Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II*.
"-The character must be someone who can give voice to shit that bothers me or is something I really, really want to write about. Kreia is my mouthpiece for everything I hate about the Force, and then I let her rant."
Max Derrat × Resonant Arc wow what a day
MrEdders defintively has the most complete retrospective on Planescape Torment I've seen on UA-cam. He had access to a lot of design documents and insider knowledge from interviews with Chris Avalone. I recommend it to anyone who is a fan of this game.
As far as Sigil being a True-Neutral plane, it is important to note the role of sigil of a gateway between all of the planes of belief/alignment or elemental/astral planes. Those planes can influence the state of Sigil. For example the lower ward has many gates to the nine hells/Baator and thus has a bit of a smog/stench/sulfur smell problem.
Other random notes: Black Isle became Obsidian. TSR sold the D&D IP to Wizards of the Coast.
Yeah, 5 hours and 40 minutes long, great document
Numenera is a spiritual successor to Planescape Torment, but it is a different setting. Numenera is a different tabletop RPG setting and system from D&D. Numenera is written by alot of old D&D designers. Many of which worked on Planescape books back in the day. Also it's a real fun setting IMO. I liked the game alot though to be honest it explores alot of the same concepts. The characters in it are real fun. The Chris Avellone written character Erritis is my favorite.
For those interested in the "original" Planescape: Torment soundtrack: Brian Williams (aka Lustmord) supposedly reused some of the music he wrote for the project on his 2001 album, Metavoid. More recently, he also worked on the music for Scorn.
Been watching Max Derrat for years, great guest to have for this.
55:00 Torment: Tides of Numenera is not set in the "Planescape" setting and is not part of D&D, instead using the Cypher system from the Numenera tabletop game from Monte Cook Games, and is more sci-fi than fantasy. Thematically it hits a lot of the same beats and is complex enough to provoke a lot of the same discussion topics with some interesting twists, although it can be just as obtuse where a guide might be recommended. I would recommend it to people that really love P:T and want more games of that style.
Yeah, it's a "Torment" sequel but not a "Planescape" sequel, hence using Torment in the name but not Planescape.
Numinera does not have a powerful of a main narrative, but has extremely strong side stories. It is worth playing. It is worth doing a podcast series. You have my vote.
Oh wow. Max’s coverage on Planescape is what sparked my interest and suddenly there he is.
57:38 I played this game blind with no prior knowledge of DnD or the Planescape setting. The sense of being completely lost was what kept me hooked and made the experience so unique and memorable.
Being lost sometimes truly helps the immersion. I remember playing _XenoGears_ as a teenager and having absolutely no clue what was going on for the first 30 or so hours of the game, but I loved it.
And they say avengers endgame is the greatest collab of all time
Hey guys. Thanks again for continuing with these podcasts. They're quite enjoyable.
Two of my favorite over analysing channels together. Great!
Torment: Tides of Numenera has thematic connections to Planescape: Torment but it is not the same setting as Planescape. It takes place around a billion years in Earth's future.
Max Derrat + Resonant arc = perfection
(2) There's an interview on "Chris Avellone, *Fallout: New Vegas*" where he talks at length about his inspirations (he's a big FFVI and Chrono Trigger fan!). I found this quote very interesting from him:
"Players should be able to play an RPG the way they want, and they don’t need my moral judgments getting in the way of how they have fun. I also am not a fan of pre-determined attitudes and alignments for players-my hope is that at the end of the game, they’ve answered the question, “What kind of character am I really, and how did that depart from what I thought I would be?”
I always considered Torment a sort of role-player’s experiment, where each incarnation of the Nameless One had the potential to be a different personality and a different type of gamer, depending on the choices he made in the game world."
And he goes into detail on this in another *Planescape: Torment* interview:
"There are some things that we felt were vital to the game. First off, we wanted the game to revolve around you and matter to you, as a player and a player character. Other games, you save your town, the nation, the princess, the world, all that bullshit. In our game, it's all about *you.* You're the mystery, you're the puzzle, *you* are what you're trying to save."
I argue that *Planescape: Torment* is in many ways a self-consciously *literary* game. It is not so much interested in saving the world, as probing the inner psyche of the player. Who *are *you, really? What kind of self do you choose to create in this "role-player's experiment"? And how is it ultimately linked to the quest of *saving* yourself?
About the Final Fantasy VI/Chrono Trigger connection, fun fact: Torment's co-producer and one of the designers, Kenneth Lee, also included a special thanks in the game's credits to "FFVII and VIII for inspiration".
@@ManiacalForeignerTo be even more specific, we have Chris Avellone’s words here:
“Chris Avellone: I have played FF7 (and loved it), and I think the influences it had on PST was the spells (which Ken Lee designed, and did a damn good job), and the fact that
each type of player character would stick with one 'type' of weapon based on their personality or their personal preference.
As for the amnesia, Annah and Grace/Tifa and Aeris, as well as the . . .
at the end -- I assure you that was not based on FF7. The amnesia was
a plot device that seemed new to me (at the time) and worked well with the plot, Annah and Grace were based on (be prepared for lameness) Betty and Veronica from Archie and Ginger and Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island -- these romantic triangles seemed to work, so we went with characters that were similar (spunky with a few rough edges, vs. prim and proper), and the . . . were chosen just
because of the Rule-of-Three in Planescape and because they were the ones that had the most impact on the player's life throughout the game.”
Writing in games has passed by the 90s but nothing has surpassed it.
That is sooooo true.
Since you guys seem to be working well with Max Derrat I would really like to see you all tackle Pathologic 2 at some point. I think the three of you can get something out of that game that nobody else has. Not to mention the game is quite unique with its narrative and themes
Great shout - Pathologic 2 is an incredible experience.
Numenera is my favorite RPG setting. I've got all the books. It's a different setting (and system) from Planescape, but same dev team and similar themes. However, they did the same thing as with Planescape, creating its own unique region and characters - but using some of the factions from the setting. It was created in collaboration with the writers of the Numenera setting and eventually a book was published explaining more tidbits about the region where the game is set in (Torment: Tides of Numenera - Explorer's Guide). Very deep game, I'm playing through it right now.
Ooh, I have been looking forward to this.
I hadn't draw the parallel previously, but after you break down the core concept of Torment you can totally see a clear connection (and possibily direction inspiration) to the concepts explored in Disco Elysium. Interesting...
Both games start with main characters waking up with amensia after they died (literally in PS:T, metaphorically in DE) ... and they are then forced to figure out who or what they are now, while exploring world that has been heavily affected by the horrible actions of their previous selfs.
Max Derrat is one of my favorite UA-camrs I've been watching him for a good number of years now. His Metal Gear Solid videos are some of his best work.
Fallout had a custom engine, developed by Tim Cain over several years, no relation to Bioware's Infinity Engine
I know you mentioned it but a lot of the things like the Cranium Rats and the distancing from traditional tropes were a part of the Planescape setting rather than coming from Chris Avellone. I don't mean to take away from what he achieved with the game but the designers of the Planescape setting do deserve a lot of credit as well for coming up with a great deal of the unique aspects of this game.
Also, Torment Numenera is a spiritual succssor with it's own setting rather than being anything to do with Planescape. I have played it but not really enough to give you a useful appraisal of it.
Beat the game twice waiting for the podcast very excited for the rest !
"Gaming has passed by the 90s but had not yet surpassed it"
So fetching true!
Very true, but that also makes sense.
90s were the perfect mix of game budget and talent.
Big companies always have best talents, and during this time the budget to make games were cheap enough to give freedom to talented developers. Talented devs doing creative things were best way to make money back then. Having successful game was more import than avoiding failures.
Starting PS2, budget grew to the point where investment required more careful distribution, thus suits got involved, and focus group became more important. More and more, companies are more worried about not failing than succeeding
Indie games these days show that kind of 90s spunk, but they lack talent and grand vision of named directors.
Also 90s people were just crass enough to not care about artists feeling, and director was able to tell people to do it his way. Matsuno mentioned kind dictatorship, and thats the type of game development i want.
Devs were willing to take risks, try new games and not milk a small amount of successful franchises for all they were worth. A game like Planescape would never get made by a major studio nowadays.
@@rdrouynrivonce in a blue moon they take such risk.
Dragon's Dogma 2 is that type of game. 90's style of taking risks and trying something different with a director with a vision of his own.
Also heard great things about Baldurs Gates 3. Haven't played it, but from the description, it sounded like it's in the same vein.
The long awaited episode! I can't believe you guys are finally coming together for this game!
I just finished watching mredders' retrospective! What great timing for the new episode!
One of the greatest crossovers we've all been waiting for
What a phenomenal surprise!!! Max Derrat is a brilliant jungian scholar, so in touch with modern gaming philosophy. Loved his takes on Deus Ex and MGS2. Please bring more of him in the future!
I remember Stonekeep! I saw the demo on display at Radio Shack way back in the day.
It's a real good dungeon crawler game. I bought it on release and have replayed it several times since. Though I'm not sure the guys would get much out of it from a story analysis perspective. That said the team spent alot of time fleshing out the setting. I wonder if there was some ambition to grow it into a franchise.
I needed this collab when you guys analyzed xenogears
Sigil is the city of doors. It's the hub at the intersection of all the spokes on the wheel that form all the other planes. It's nuetral in the sense that it's where all these factions and ideologies meet. At least that's how I always regarded it.
*updated my journal*
As someone who backed Tides of Numenera, I thought it was... fine(?), but ultimately underwhelming myself. While Kasen was pontificating about how creating a sequel to Planescape would tarnish the original, I won't deny that Tides of Numenera came to mind.
It felt despite chasing Planescape: Torment, but never gets sufficiently close to it.
Fallout 1 and 2 were not made on Infinity Engine. Fallout 1 and 2 were made with a proprietary engine. Only ever used for those two games.
Infinity Engine games were as follows:
1. Baldur's Gate (1998) + Tales of the Sword Coast (1999)
2. Planescape: Torment (1999)
3. Icewind Dale (2000) + Heart of Winter (2001)
4. Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn (2000) + Throne of Bhaal (2001)
5. Icewind Dale II (2002)
Thanks a lot for another episode, anyway. Cheers ;)
Peak crossover
One more to go with majuular 😂
55:57 tiny correction: Numenera is set in the Numenera universe from Monte Cook (who, funny enough, also wrote part of the Planescape setting) and his Cypher System. It’s supposed to be like a spiritual successor to planescape, and while it did a pretty good job, I’d say it doesn’t come close. I’d honestly pin Disco Elysium as the best spiritual successor to Planescape
Numenera just tries to be a little too philosophical, kinda like how y’all theorized a Planescape 2 would work out. Still a fun game, cool systems, definitely more playable. But the writing isn’t nearly as top notch
Wow there's a WHOLE DAMN PLAYLIST. GOD IS GOOD!
I would resist classing Sigil as a purgatory - its essential nature is as a travel hub, a nexus - it's neutral in the same way an airport or a space station is. Or a large maritime port. Anyone or anything - except gods - can turn up there, living, dead, or other. For most beings, it's not an afterlife, though, in addition to the native creatures, there are plenty who were born there and have lived their entire lives within the City of Doors.
Torment: Tides of Noumenera isn't in the same world, it's in another tabletop RPG game universe that's full of weird magitech stuff (Ninth World I think it's called).
It's intended to be a spiritual successor, and so it focuses a lot on alternate skill resolutions over combat etc.
I feel somewhat responsible for introducing you guys to each other on Twitter. I'm not sure if I was the only one, but I deffinetly played a part in the potential MGS2 collab.
Can't wait for Casen to play Talos Principle. Has Mike played it? Thanks for what you guys do.
Disco Elysium is the spiritual sequel to planescape torment, the devs of disco have stated that planescape has heavily influenced them and their game. It too is a masterpiece and only game the comes close to being as good as Planescape.
I haven’t watched this channel in a few years but god damn. You guys are so fucking good. I dunno why I stopped. You guys talk about games on such a deeper level than most. I’m definitely coming back for much much more…..
So glad you’re still out here making videos!
Stonekeep was one of my favorite games growing up. Nice to hear it named checked in the conversation. I assume that game was a failure for Interplay since in my experience it went right to the bargin bin at CompUSA. Though I loved it and it was kinda crazy how much effort was put into it. every copy came with a novella inside the box which sets the story up. Still got that novella on my bookshelf
Mark Morgan also did the Fallout & Fallout 2 soundtracks, as well as Torment: Tides of Numenera
Nice
been waiting for this for so long
Yes Avellone is right there at the top with the best video game writers ever, Personally I like Kotor more but that is due to my lifelong love of Star Wars and overall disinterest in DnD.
Much better guest host this time, Max is amazing.
I just started watching this, and then the next time i went to the front page, edders vid was on the front page..youtube is listening :skull:
Numenera doesn't take place n the same universe as Plaescape, it actually takes place on earth, just a billion years in the future. It's a pretty interesting setting, it's so far in the future that 9 different civilizations (not all of them human) have risen and fallen, and the remnants of their advanced technology are looked on as magic by the current people.
Oh man, this has to the most awesome UA-cam collaboration in decades!
Please, please, please make an analysis of _SIGNALIS_ together, it would be awesome!
I wonder if Disco Elysium was influenced by PT's tracking of choices to acquire/reveal the PC's alignment, except using politics instead of what D&D uses?
There are some interviews with DE devs and they mention PsT was a great influence.
almost explicitly confirmed the case
Yes.
Black Isle splintered into mostly Obsidian Entertainment with a few founding Troika Games and was officially shutdown by Interplay in 2003. The Black Isle that exists now is just a holder of the IPs that the shell of Interplay hasn't sold off.
Now I think it most been 2 years I’m waiting for the episode about Fomito Ueda games « ico, shadow of the colossus,the last guardian »
32:30 not as long as Umineko tho :) you guys should play it, you would love it.
I respect the feeling towards the setting for the game as Casen, i just find it unusual. I guess when Im enjoying a game or story being told, i dont want to envision myself in the setting, I want to envision the setting period. For this reason i just never once felt uneasy or fatigued by the game. The thought / sentiment never once crossed my mind. In fact after playing through it initially, i was thristing pretty hard for any other RPG can deliver something in the same vein just as good.
I love rats
Every video game i make they're the first battle.
When i run ttrpg first thing someone sends you into a basement to kill rats. My favorite trope ever
fallout 1 and 2 have a different engine it was written mostly by timothy cain, who has a youtube channel and makes short form videos about gamedev and his past projects
The planes are the alignment system of D&D made real.
It's not quite right to think of a "highest heaven" or "lowest hell". Any plane could be hell if you're on the wrong one.
Mount Celestia, for instance, is the plane of Lawful Good. It's not "higher" than Arborea, the plane of Chaotic Good, it simply embodies what it is, both lawfulness and goodness. A Chaotic Good person or even a Neutral Good person would feel stifled there, not truly happy. Mechanus and Limbo aren't "Purgatories" because they're neutral, Mechanus is *absolute* order. To a human it would be as hellish as any of the planes of Evil because it's simply too ordered to live there.
Baator is the plane of Neutral Evil, it's the battlefield of the Blood War because demons (Chaotic Evil) and devils (Lawful Evil) who die there return to their plane of origin rather than dying for real.
Nitpick: Baator is Lawful Evil, the highly ordered home plane of many Devils. At the time this game was produced, it was one of two LE planes, along with Gehenna (and the positive and negative energy planes were inner planes); in 5th Edition, I'm told things have shifted to be more like one plane per main alignment (except TN) and intermediate planes between adjacent pairs of planes around the great wheel. So Gehenna is now slightly-lawful evil and Acheron (previously LN) is now lawful slightly-evil.
Currently, the Blood War is fought mostly in The Gray Waste aka Hades, the NE plane, but over the aeons it has been fought across any of the Lower Planes and on occasion spilled into other realms.
Chris Avallone is a weird writer to me, in that he is good at it, but so unsubtle about projecting his thought on a setting into his work.
It can be kinda annoying when it feels less like the game presents you with a theme or idea, but instead is telling you "look at this thing I don't like, you shouldn't either".
Yet I appreciate his attention to details as a writer and understand it is a thing you just have to think about when it comes to his story telling.
I beat Numenera when it came out: protagonist with memory loss and a dark origin, crazy companions, multiverse setting, text heavy, turn based combat. Good, not great but at least the fights were beareable unlike Torment's, let's leave those in the 90s ok?
Whoa whoa whoa wait wait and wait! You're telling me that two of my fave UA-camrs that talk about videogaming, philosophical and spiritual concerns have teamed up to talk about a classic RPG? Hell, all I need now is for Anya Taylor Joy to join me to watch and have a cup of tea!
😳
Any minute now.
🤔
About now.
😞
Ah well, at least I got tea bags.
😩
There's no milk? Bugger
might wanna fix the timecodes in the Description
Fallout 1/2 are not in the Infinity Engine. Cheers!
Are you taking down old videos?
I can't find some of my favorite video of yours. Like the group discussions of FF7 Remake.
They maybe on the archive channel. They still exit on spotify
*EXIST not exit
@@jeffpalaganas7404 found it on spotify, but not on archive channel.
Does anyone know what won the poll from last month? MGS2&3 or Xenosaga 2&3?
Also an instance of the sequel being better than the original perfect piece of media is.... Shrek 2.
What's the next game the guys are coverinf?
what happened to the dragons dogma 2 review you put up last week? is it coming back?
I suspect they got sick of all the nonsense in the comments.
@@Scimarad dang, I really wanted to see mikes opinion on the game, then when I went to watch it was gone :(
Would Disco Elysium be a perfect follow up to this game?
The chat seems to think so.
I hope they cover it one day.
what happened to the dragon's dogma review?
Inxile is the new studio made up of these guys? Right?
Max’s audio cuts out like every 2 seconds…..
If we are recommending planescape videos, everyone should check out noah Caldwell's video. Production values are not great,but the substance is top level. Nobody writes about games like that guy.
Touche, he was the first video game essayst I ever saw and still is far above the rest that have come after him.
Just get to the game already damn
Calm down
Inxile is the new studio made up of these guys? Right?