When I hear "lose your salvation" I dont think of it being taken from me etc. I think of it as walking away or apostasy. Hence all of the constant talk of " holding till the end" , " abiding in the vine" , "Persevere till the end" etc. etc.
@@tomtemple69I deed the operation of the Holy Spirit through the Gospel - called: "The hearing of faith" (Galatians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 1 Peter 1:5)
Excellent. No better way to put it. As Dr. Michael Brown puts it "you can't lose your salvation...but you can forfeit it." And I think that language works better with the entirety of the Old Testament.
@bairfreedom anyone believing they can "walk away".. or "apostate".. themselves... does NOT believe in what Calvinism teaches.. those who have been called by God unto salvation.. have received the "irresistible call of the Spirit" this call of the Spirit does Not get directed by God... to someone.. and draws them to God.. Only to allow them to by their own will.. walk away from what God has called them to ... at any point in the future.. God does not treat us like yo-yo's on strings.. or even like a kite on a string.. where we can go flying away from Him... any who have received the call of the Spirit..in other words... called by God.. are His for keeps.. as a Calvinist... I DO believe.. that God has chosen to harden some hearts as he did with the Pharaoh's of Moses day... for reasons known ONLY to Him... but.. these hearts will reject the call from the beginning.... hence blaspheming the spirt... Matthew 12:31-32....these will Not be saved at all.. therefore doomed to the unpardonable sin... I do not believe one can "un-save" themselves.. nor will God withdraw His salvation for ones He has chosen... this would be saying that God makes mistakes.. He doesn't..
I am a a reformed guy... But I love these videos. I appreciate you *brother.* You challenge me... and that's always a good thing. God bless you friend!
As long as you're being honest and seeking the scripture and not a theologian like White or Durbin to explain it away in textual criticism or Calvinistic doctrine rather than just God's word then you'll be okay.
@@Livelife95ify are you saying that the entirety of reformed theology is false? If so then that would mean that you are saying that the diety of Christ is false, salvation by faith through grace (alone) is false, etc... do you believe those things are false?
I would suggest you have studied more but glad you have peace no matter what. The Scriptures scream to us that God PRESERVES His people. The "if" passages aren't prescriptive. Prove it to me from the Greek. They are DESCRIPTIVE. Showing what the true Christians will do. Perseverance of the Saints. The warning passages are not hypothetical. Apostasy is real...but again not for the born again child of God.
There are many passages that suggest that salvation can never be lost or forfeited and there are many passages that suggest that salvation can indeed be lost or forfeited. That is why the Protestant notion that every believer can interpret the Scripture for himself is totally wrong. We need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church, sometimes called the magisterium. Our Holy Mother the Catholic Church teaches that the state of grace can indeed be forfeited (Dr. Cooper is quite correct to say that "forfeited" is a better word here than "lost") and all it takes is one mortal sin. The state of grace can be regained by a sincere repentance and good Confession.
@@honeybee-k9z The Confessional Lutheran church preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified and that alone is our Peace. You speak against things you do not understand.
1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." People that leave the faith, stop abiding in it, fall away or whatever way you want to state it....were never truly saved....or they would not have left.
The passage you cite has nothing to do with a question of perseverance or the assertion of once saved always saved. John is warning against false prophets, antichrists, liars, deceivers, etc.
I scratched my head on this but unlocked the Lutheran DaVinci Code if you will. In Lutheranism you can have real true regenerate "Christians"...all Baptized barbies!!!! So...because the Sacramental efficacy is of main focus always you must be able to account for those who "fall away" after having received true efficacious grace in the water of Baptism. Once you get past this you see Lutherans squirming whenever Calvin is mentioned (sad because Calvin admired Luther unto death) but at the CORE soteriology....and I mean the CORE...there is no difference. What about universal grace? Same answer. You need universal grace to subsidize the efficacy of infant Baptismal regeneration and you must have true apostates as an excuse to handle when one of the Non Elect falls away (yet they truly were BAPTIZED). So...the reason I say that at the CORE. ...the Sola Fide Monergistic CORE is the same is because Lutheran Theology teaches that the ELECT OF GOD shall NEVER perish ..... im good with that. The Apostates they speak of are visible church stragglers...covenant fallouts. Similar to Federal Vision in the sense that there are the Covenantally Elect (Baptized) and then there are the Decretally Elect (regenerated). We have a similar stance in Presbyterianism with the visible and invisible church we just never teach that A regenerated heart can become unregenerated...its a difference in our language and that for the reasons stated above the Lutherans claim that real born again Christians can be lost but never the Elect. We teach that ONLY the Elect are Born Again. Shalom.
@@itslitgamestv6827 Incorrect. That text is talking about Antichrists. It explains who the “they” are and what the “they” were doing. The “they” were Antichrists and they were outright denying that Jesus is the Christ.
Now, however, since you have come to know [the true] God [through personal experience], or rather to be known by God, how is it that you are turning back again to the weak and worthless elemental principles [of religions and philosophies], to which you want to be enslaved all over again? Galatians 4:9 God has given us a choice.. if we are willing to continue with God he will sustain us.. just like we were willing to be saved while he is the one who saves us.. If a person wants to return to deceptive teachings and fall away it's their choice.. and God will not stop because we are humans.. not robots!
It seems to me that many of the Christian traditions attempting to grapple with the issue of salvation and election are divided because they see it from different vantage points. Because Reformed Christians take seriously God's sovereignty, they attempt to look at it from God's perspective, by which they conclude that God will save those whom he will save. Those who fall away were never elect to begin with. This is what God sees. On the other hand, from a human perspective it certainly appears that those who once claimed to be saved have indeed lost their salvation. Hence the warnings in Scripture. Arminians and Lutherans take these passages seriously, with the former assuming that we must co-operate with God's "prevenient grace" and the latter taking more of a paradoxical approach yet affirming ultimately that our salvation comes from God alone. North American evangelicals, i.e., the heirs of the 18th- and 19th-century awakenings and revivals, start out as Arminians but try to end up as Calvinists. That is, they believe that once one has "accepted Jesus Christ as personal saviour," one is in the fold and nothing he does afterwards will take him out of the fold. Hence the carnal Christians that we hear about in these circles. This is a serious deformation of the Reformation. I myself am Reformed, but I would take issue with those in our churches, especially young people, who believe they can drink to excess and live more or less as they like because they are already "in." That is a presumptuous approach to God's grace that fails to take seriously the need for sanctification. Thanks for the video. Very interesting.
I just want to respond to your comment where you said, "...Reformed Christians take seriously God's sovereignty,...". All due respect, and I mean that sincerely... I see Calvinists make this false claim all the time. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the non-Calvinists, if not all of the one's I know do indeed take God's "sovereignty" serious. I've studied the subject of the varying views of soteriology for quite a few years and what I see is a mistake made by Calvinists where they define "sovereignty" in an idiosyncratic way. If Calvinists would correctly define sovereignty it would cause them to put aside a bias they have based on a false presupposition of God's sovereignty.
PAUL'S WORDS do read and take serious. Because your reasoning is FULL of the creeds and traditions of men and we must discern absolute from relative arguments. This one is an absolute one and not subject to relativism or further context. Romans 8:38 "38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow-not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below-indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord." If indeed" nothing in all of creation will ever be able to seperate us from the love of God "then we as Christians cannot fall away even when we try. I don't care for opinions and am merely here to call out such heresy. I say this as one who has witnessed EL ELYON on his throne, of whom I did not know of and who's face I could not see on the throne, until I was "sanctified" on his right hand side. Not by my works, but by his decree "that [I] might believe" and never can fall away despite wrestling with God and my faith in him. Sanctification is nothing you yourself do. Our actions are merely the affirmation of such heavenly decrees. But once saved, we are never in no wise - panteles - able to lose salvation. Period.
Because He knew squabbles of this nature would come up, Jesus in His wisdom did not leave us orphans----He established the Catholic Church and gave it infallible teaching authority. Our Holy Mother the Catholic Church teaches that salvation (the "state of grace ") can be forfeited, and all it takes is one mortal sin. The Church further teaches that the state of grace can be re-gained by a sincere repentance and good Confession .
@@a-sheep-of-christ Nothing will separate us from God's love. God loves saints and sinners alike. If we sin and break from Him, we lose our salvation (we lose the state of grace) but He still loves. God punished Adam and Eve but He still punished them. God even loves the souls in Hell. The fire they experience is only the fire of His love, experienced by the souls in Hell as painful because they do lot love God back. They will stay in Hell forever but God still loves them. So "nothing can separate us from God's love" does not mean once-saved-always-saved. Once-saved-always-saved is a license to sin.
Thank you for making these videos! I have been Christian (Lutheran) all my life and it is always comforting to hear the Truth (even when it hurts, it heals). Thanks be to God!
Some Christians believe that if a saved person enters into a sinful lifestyle and fails to repent then he will still get to heaven but will lose rewards. Their proof text is 1 Cor. 3:13-15 which say, “his work will be shown for what it is … the fire will test the quality of each man’s work … If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames”. Notice that these verses are referring to the testing of a man’s work, not sin. If the passage in 1 Cor. 3-4 was talking about sin then it would be saying - I) Those who build with good, golden sins will be rewarded. II) Those who build with not so good, straw sins will lose their rewards. Of course this is ridiculous. Whoever heard of building a church with sin or God rewarding someone for sin? In this article, I would like to show that these verses are not speaking about sin in the least but about how we work to build the church on the foundation of the gospel of Jesus. Beginning with 1 Cor. 1:11- 13 and 1 Cor. 3:1-8, these verses tell us that the Corinthians were fighting about whether they should follow Paul, Apollos or Cephas. Paul said that their focus should be on Jesus because men are mere servants with assigned tasks; one man plants, another waters and each man will be rewarded according to his own labour. Next, in 1 Cor. 3:9-11, he continues on to say that we are God’s workers, His field and His building (His church) and that he, Paul, has laid a foundation as an expert builder and each of us must be careful how we build on that foundation, which is Jesus Christ. Then 1 Cor. 3:12-15 talk about how we build the church and warn that fire will test the quality of each man’s work. The verses say that we can - a) Build with gold, silver or costly stones and receive our reward or b) Build with wood, hay or straw and, although we will still be saved, our work will be burned up. Building with gold, silver or costly stones represent good leadership and sound doctrine while wood, hay and straw represent poor leadership and unsound doctrine. Sin is not in question here. So far, Paul has spoken about building the church with either good or poor leadership and doctrine but now he continues on to speak about bad leadership and doctrine which destroys a church. 1 Cor. 3:16-17 say, “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you [plural] are that temple”. The term “God’s temple” is referring to the church, the body of Christ, and these verses say that God will destroy anyone who destroys His church (see 2 Pet. 2). Then, from 1 Cor. 3:18, Paul continues on to further warn us not to follow men. In 1 Cor. 4:6 he sums up what he has said so far (from 1 Cor. 3:1) by saying that he has applied these things to himself and Apollos so that we could learn the meaning of the saying, “’Do not go beyond what is written.’ Then you will not take pride in one man over against another”. He is saying that the entire passage is to warn us not to follow men but to stay with what is written. In 1 Cor. 4:2 he said, “it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful”, and it is by not going beyond what is written that we remain faithful to that trust. So we can see that this passage of scripture has nothing to do with sin. It is a warning for us not to follow men’s wisdom but to use the written Word to build on the foundation of Jesus because our rewards will be according to the way we build. If we build with sound biblical doctrine then we will be rewarded. If we build with poor doctrine then we will still be saved but lose our rewards. If anyone destroys the church then he will be destroyed. If we attempt to make sin the context of this passage then it will make no sense at all as words like build, labour and work don’t relate to sin. Likewise, sin can’t be related to building with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay and straw unless we say that we will be rewarded for good sins and lose our reward for bad sins. The fact is, sin is not the subject of this passage. To make it a bit clearer, let’s consider a Christian who dies while refusing to repent of his adultery. Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) believers will say that he will still get to heaven but lose some rewards. This is entirely out of context with the passage in question as the man was not building on the foundation of Jesus while he was in adultery, he was just fulfilling his lusts. He wasn’t building the church while he remained in sin, he was just building his condemnation. The truth is, this passage is taken entirely out of context by OSAS believers. An unrepentant sinner will not suffer a loss of rewards for his sin but eternal condemnation.
This is the best biblical explanation that I have heard about walking away from the faith and YES because you have a free will you can lose your salvation
I agree. We don't lose God. God will never let his people go. God will never take your salvation away. But we can definitely reject what has been freely given to us. Who in their right mind would ever want to do such a thing? Not me!
@ben1344 That is a great question. It may appear like it is saying that, if you fall away your chance for salvation is gone forever. That is not the case. Note this part: "crucifying to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame". Note the verbs are present tense. They cannot be reconciled while they are rejecting Christ---literally being an antichrist and repudiating Him. It is the same meaning when Christ says, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already". In that case condemnation is a present tense reality. But that does not mean repentance and reconciliation is impossible. That does not mean they can never come back. Note how the following verses are positive: "Even tho we speak in this way, we are convinced of better things regarding you, beloved. Things regarding SALVATION." And then he goes on to specifically point out the promise of God to Abraham to bless you. And that God swore an oath that this is an unchangable thing. And that we have "hope as an achor of the soul". The point of that passage is to urge us to continue on to the end. Did not Peter even deny Christ himself? And yet was restored.
If it's left up to me to persevere in the maintenance of faith, I am doomed to failure. I've ever been able to consistently do what I'm supposed to do, or ought to do, or need to do. In fact, the more I try, the more I seem to rebel. I have zero trust in myself. The miracle for me is the fact that when I finally threw in the towel and gave it all to God, I began to do the right things without even having to try very hard. I don't think I chose God....I think that He chose me, and in order to persevere in faith, I have to believe that He's got a plan, and it WILL be completed! If that makes me a Calvinist, then so be it. Blessings to all.
It appears to me, that Lutherans are speaking out of both sides of their mouth on this issue. " You can fall away, but don't worry, God preserves his people". Well...which is it? If I fall away, then i was never his, or he would have preserved me.
@@FrMoody I've read several Palamist sermons insisting on "I'm being saved," and Lutherans would not deny it. But what do you so with the broader morphology of "save" in the NT? It certainly says we are being saved, but it also says "He saved us...by the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit," and "By grace you have been saved." biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4982.htm
I don't know how Dr. Cooper feels but his hero Martin Luther taught that only the loss of faith resulted in the loss of salvation, that no believer loses salvation by committing sin. "If anyone should still believe in the stupid ten commandments let him chase himself to the Jews," Luther said.
You are begging the question. You assume because we are saved then God would not let us fall away. But this does nothing to address the very real possibility of turning away and resisting his grace. Falling away does not mean we were never his it means we rejected him.
As a non-Calvinist Baptist working out my own understandings of the issue, you really had me agreeing with you all the way through until you said "sacraments," there at the end. Yes, the Bible says pretty clearly that you can cast off your saving faith, and it also says pretty clearly that anyone who keeps their faith intact has iron-clad assurance, but the Bible says 0 about that assurance being based in any part on regularly receiving sacraments. It is faith alone. We can say that faith is our "part" of the salvation process only because it is not a work or an action by which we receive credit. The Bible uses "faith" and "works" in contra-distinction. However, if keeping the faith, and thus salvation, requires any works (which sacraments blatantly are), then the sacraments are what ensure salvation. It is not God ensuring our salvation by giving us the faith we need to assent in trust, but us ensuring our salvation by maintaining our faith through pious activity.
Lutherans baptize comatose family members if there's any evidence they are believers and wanted to be baptized eventually. Lutherans baptize the quadriplegic. And Lutherans baptize babies. I never seen no baby do no work.
If we define "works" as "anything physical that ever occurs", of course the sacraments are works. But by this definition, the death and resurrection of Christ is a work, and we know we are saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. So the definition of "work" in this context must be "anything physical of man's doing" (as opposed to God's doing). Your argument then rests on a presupposition that the sacraments (baptism and communion) are works of man. The orthodox Lutheran understanding is that these are absolutely not works of man, but works of God. If a dirty dish is washed clean, it is not the dish which worked itself clean, but the washer of the dish who did the work. So it is in baptism, where it is not the water which purifies, but the "washing of the water with the Word" (Eph 5:26). Further, we know God does use physical things to accomplish His will. We are physical bodies, and will be reunited with our physical bodies in the last day. We place our trust in the physical blood of Jesus on a physical cross at a precise time and location in history, and His physical resurrection. The sick woman who touched Jesus' garment in Luke 8 was made well by faith, at the moment she touched Jesus' physical robe. A few seconds before she touched His robe, she had faith that once she touched His robe, she would be healed. But she was not healed until physically touching his physical robe. The sacraments of baptism and communion were instituted by Christ Himself and are not ours to do away with. If the Bible said "pat yourself on top of your head five times and you will be saved" we would all take it at face value. But when St Paul says in Acts 22:16, "Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins", we say we don't need baptism to wash away our sins. And when St Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that "baptism now saves you", we say no it doesn't. And when Christ Himself says in Matthew 26 that "This [the wine] is the blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins", we say it's not actually His blood and it doesn't actually work forgiveness of sins. Faith alone saves, and we must have faith that His Word and the blessed sacraments will deliver what He has promised!
Thank you so much! I've struggled with the book of Rev where it says we can be taken out of the Book of Life and knew in my heart we can stop believing.
@@gregorylatta8159 then you haven't read the Book of Rev, not only does it come with a promise, but says if you add or take away from "this book" your name will be blotted out from the Book of Life. BTW, never remembered Jesus saying "duh" to a believer so maybe change your funky attitude foolish one (He did call people fools so, I can say that). Have a great day
@@gregorylatta8159 Gen 21:27 "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life." Greek will be different than English for sure, but just about every English Bible says book. Both are wood literally so, I can accept tree haha. This is interesting tho, id like to know more because the book of Gen says tree of life so, I would like to know more about how they're similar. Thank you for this incite
@@Shellyspurr The Lambs book of life is usually thought of as the list that was made before the foundation of the world of those predestined for salvation. There is much debate within Christianity about this and many issues such as OSAS and many many others. All I can say is no matter what anyone thinks I am going to trust Jesus alone for my salvation and I suggest others do the same.
How do you reconcile these passages with the passages that teach eternal security and perseverance, such as; John 6:37-39, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:28-31?
Let’s flip the around. How do you reconcile those texts you posted with the ones he pointed out within taking the hypothetical but not possible view or being externally connected to the church without true faith?
@@JonathanGrandt He reconciles them the way Lutheran doctors always have. bookofconcord.org/sd-election?setSidebar=min#para68 bookofconcord.org/sd-election.php#para12 bookofconcord.org/exhortation.php
Let's face it, the Bible contradicts itself a lot. That's why we need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church. See 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16, and Acts 8:31.
Let's face it the Bible contradicts itself all over the place. That's why we need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church.
But how do we know if we've lost our salvation?? What categorize wilful sin? Are we talking about someone who struggle consistently but feels convicted of sin or someone who doesn't care and reject Christ completely after experiencing difficult situations? Are we talking about someone who walks away from community because of church hurt or abuse but ends up coming back because they feel called to repentance? This is a very confusing and terrifying, could you expend on the characteristics of those who did?
If you've lost it completely, you wont even care about that subject. But it is also a matter of degree. Being in sin will lead to doubt your salvation. As John's first epistle says, in all the verses with the phrase "this is how we know", faith in obedience brings assurance.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." If believing in Jesus grants you everlasting life, you can never stop having it. Otherwise it's incoherent. It is in the moment you believe that you are passed from death unto life. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24
So is the Holy Spirit a leaking seal till the day of redemption? A new heart of flesh and a new spirit isn't enough to keep someone saved? God can't sovereignly keep someone in the faith ?
@@tomtemple69I don't understand God to force someone to disbelieve or believe in Him. Salvation requires a person's free will and/or volition. The Lord's love is made apparent in that He allows His creation to be able of themselves to serve and obey Him consciously and not involuntarily in a deterministic or fatalistic sense.
@@tomtemple69"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." Matthew 11:12 A particular pious bishop named Theophan importantly clarified; "The fact that the Kingdom of God is "taken by force" presupposes personal effort." A person may have initially or for a long period of time sought it only to then eventually have forsaken it. At one point a person may of their own volition work out their salvation, potentially through particular decisions or judgements of such a person they may fall from the faith or cease to work out their salvation.
@@anthonyp6055 "I don't understand God to force someone to disbelieve or believe in Him. Salvation requires a person's free will and/or volition. The Lord's love is made apparent in that He allows His creation to be able of themselves to serve and obey Him consciously and not involuntarily in a deterministic or fatalistic sense." yeah, that's your opinion the Bible says otherwise also, "force" would imply God doesn't have total and complete control over our existence and doesn't uphold our existence moment by moment
"Peter, the formidable rock, falling into great sin and experienced in struggle, did not despair and did not lose the presence of the Spirit, rather he shed bitter tears from a warm heart and, seeing that, the devil fled from him as though burned by fire." - St. Seraphim Of Sarov Christ created us with free will, He even allows us to fall into sin in order for us to remain humble and contrite and not become proud as the demons/devils who themselves don't eat food nor sleep, have sexual relations and have knowledge of the Scriptures. Peter denied the Lord three times and supported false doctrine(Judaizing) yet the Lord accepted his repentance and self-correction. God bless!
@@anthonyp6055 I understand your point (and agree full heartedly)...but how do we reconcile that with the Hebrews passage that says "it's impossible to renew the repentant back to repentance"? I know I'll find the answer eventually...I just need to search.
Thank you for an honest treatment of the idea! Finally! My very real dilemma is thus: I see that "there remains no repentance" in Hebrews 6:4-6, but I also see that this passage comes after 3 exhortations of "today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts." If it is my desire to return to Him, is it possible I only *thought* I fell away, or is it possible I'm being deceived into thinking I merely want to repent? Regardless- thank you for handling this idea in a way that finally feels like someone is being honest with the text and not playing semantic games.
Thanks Pastor for walking the razors edge of the Word of God. I stuggled with this doctrine as God brought me out of Calvinism by His word alone. God's peace be with you.
What about a saved person who genuinely loves and knows Christ but falls into a dry season for a period of time and becomes more apathetic about sin for a period of time.. but then comes back to repentance a while later. Is it too late for them?
A born again person can reject his faith.. God doesn't force his will on anyone.. but if your a person who genuinely follow God I don't think hel let you fall away. Hel bring a person back no matter how far he's gone.. but again his willingness wil matter.
If a person will fall away from faith to the point God will cut away him, he will never come back to faith - he is doomed as letter of hebrews undeniably stayed.
That would be calling God a liar and not maintaining faith/trust in God, His Word and Work. We call it a seared conscience, the remedy is the hammer of God, and private honest confession and Absolution.
@@herberttaylor466 Give my regards to Mao Zedong, responsible for about 45 million deaths. I am sure he was praising Jesus as untold millions were tortured to death under Mao's command.
It is so important for someone professing Christ's saving work in his or her life, and in wedding that person to the Church, that that believer perseveres to the end, using the power that God gives him or her, and recognizing that God Himself is striving to keep that believer in the fold and family of believers. Always END WELL, with final repentance and humility!
Even Nicodemus understood that a person could not enter again into their mother’s womb so as to be born a second time. But in this is something essential to recognize… just as a person cannot enter back into the womb in order to be reborn, so a person cannot become unborn. A person cannot become unborn of the Spirit and work to undo the work of God. For what God has joined together let no man tear apart. In Him we have become joined in union with God. We have been born of God. We have been made a new creation.
Thank you for making your videos, especially this one. I have been branching out and learning about other Christian traditions, being raised in reformed, modern churches. I enjoy your approach to these topics, as it is always biblical, easy to understand, and truthful.
This is one of the best descriptions of how salvation works that I've come across in years of research. It really bothers me that I can't be a Lutheran for one reason: women pastors.
I grew up Lutheran and am excited to have found your channel. Concerning this issue, could you give your understanding how someone gets "saved" or receives salvation in the first place? Just to lay some foundation before we go to the Lutheran understanding of losing it or not.
cool, And could you also tell me what type of Lutheran you are? I grew up in the ELCA church and I know there are different types. That might help with some understanding as well.
I am a pastor in the AALC. We are quite small. We were founded by the old ALC by churches who did not want to join the merger that became the ELCA, because we had some concern regarding their views on Scripture.
I watched this video and also looked up the AALC. I would say I find your beliefs more Biblical than what I have experienced with the ELCA. I don't believe all that you are saying and find it all a bit "religious". By that I mean traditions of man more than a relationship with God Himself. It seems that from your video I would agree on the basics of how one gets saved. I certainly don't hold to any teaching that says infants should be baptized or that it accomplishes anything in terms of that child's salvation. Salvation is a choice that we make to accept what Jesus did for us on the cross. A baby can't do that and the parents can't do that for them. However, I'll watch some more and listen to what you have to say. Maybe you can move from water baptism to the baptism of the Holy Spirit as it was in Acts. You do know that is still available to us today, right?! Romans 10:9-10 English Standard Version (ESV) 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 I agree because the Bible tells us so clearly we can lose our faith. The parable of the sower is clear on this. Even Paul says I fought the good fight and kept the faith. Why should he say such a thing if he couldn't lose his faith in t he first place?
@@Bijbelstudies, peace brother. That's a good point. So if it's true and we can lose it, what are we supposed to do? How do we have assurance that God won't let us do that, and that he will help us endure to the end?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 God will HELP us to endure with His grace but He will not FORCE us to endure. All it takes is one mortal sin and the state of grace is forfeited. The state of grace can be re-gained by sincere repentance and a good Confession.
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 he will help us endure if we are willing.. but if your deceived and want to follow in deception then even God can't obstruct your willingness. Salvation came to us through Jesus, he only opened our eyes but it's because we were willing . He won't forcefully open anyone's eyes nor force to keep them open to him.. you have full choice to close your eyes or keep them open. If I'm willing to keep them open then he will keep it open for us.. he will sustain us..
This is a question frought with all kinds of semantic difficulties. What exactly IS a Christian? Who meets the standards of being a "genuine" Christian? Which ones are regenerate? What does it even mean to "lose" faith or salvation? In some sense, it either continues, or you never had it. You can't tell your wife, "You know, honey, I had a never-ending love for you, but then I just quit."
That is a very good point, Hans. The relationship (personal relationship with Jesus, no?) with Jesus is often likened to a marriage, with Jesus being the groom and our souls being the bride. The book of Revelation speaks of the Church as the mystical body of Christ. Some Catholic hymns speak of Jesus, "the bridegroom of my soul". A nun is considered to be a bride of Christ. In a marriage the partners need to have faith in each other, have hope that the marriage will work, and they must do good works for each other. We should understand that faith without works is dead but we should REALLY understand that love without good works is the phonyest kind of love imaginable. Having faith in each other and that's all that is needed? No.....
To Jordan Cooper And Other Commenters Of This Video: The expression "Once saved always saved," is a logo that asserts only subjective justification (The human subjection to what Christ did for us). What the "Once saved" logo seems to exclude is what Christ has already done for us objectively. What Christ did for us, out of His love for us, is He died on the cross and shed His blood, and he bore our sins and took the judgement for our sins, and He has fully cleansed us from our sins, and Christ rose from the dead and conquered death for us, all by His own merit. Christ accomplished, one time, and for all, salvation and eternal peace (Peace with God); he saved us. We need only to subject to Christ and receive that the Father has forgiven us through the work of Christ, and receive, from Christ His righteousness and deification imputed to us from Him. The answer to the question that asks "Can a true believer fall away from the faith?," is in the Bible. We can begin with 1 John 3: 6, which says "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him neither known him (KJV)." This means that the believer's life is not characterized by sin, but is subject to the character and will of God, and not the will of man's sinfulness. Some of the ways man sins can be seen in 1 Corinthians 6: 6-12. As believers in Christ, we, by faith, accept that Christ died on the cross for our sins, and He arose from the dead, and by faith we turn (Repent) from our sins, and by the power of the Holy Ghost, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us from Christ himself, and Christ has fully cleansed and deified us. As believers, we are also dealing with the remaining presence of our sinful will, where we will, either knowingly or unknowingly, to walk out of fellowship with God, which is why we must return to fellowship with the Lord our God through confession to Him by faith and believing by faith that Christ took our judgement for us. A true believer in Christ, cannot remain out of fellowship with God nor out of fellowship with God's eternal peace, but a true believer's conscience of the Scriptures will be a constant reminder to them of their sin, by the true message of the Scriptures, and by the reminder of what the Scriptures proclaim, and the true believer cannot continue to sin and be out of fellowship with God - See Matthew 13: 8, about the seed that fell into good soil. Matthew 13: 3-7 referrs to those who hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and allow the seed to be planted, only to turn from the message of Christ, and they continue to side in with their own will, and are not in fellowship with God's will.
This is a great explanation of the text. First Get the book, it’s excellent. I love my evangelical brothers and sisters in Christ, but like Dr Cooper I struggled with this issue. With COVID-19 and everything else I can say as a matter of fact my faith is weaker than it was months ago. I still repent and reach out as I need God so much more than I can comprehend. The fact people can backslide to apostasy is real, not through works, but through a lack of faith. When evangelicals say that there are only maybe a few lines in the Bible that indicate you might lose your faith, and eternal security is all over the place, I just could not see that as I read the whole new testament. I found it to be the opposite. I also believe the Lutheran position described here provides the most security for people as I especially dislike how the “fake Christian” argument goes as it either makes people insecure in their faith, or requires them to look at themselves instead of Christ for faith. Again I love my Christian brothers dearly whom disagree with this, peace and In Christ we all must be in this broken world
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 late late response here. You want to know what to do? Look to Christ. Pray for wisdom and discernment so that all of us Christian’s can be United. Just the fact that you’re asking this question means you want to know. Pray about it. Ask for the gifts that you know God is offering you and mean it (with faith) and it’s a done deal. And then use it. I believe from your one comment you are saved but you’re afraid of backsliding. Stay in the word and talk to God and ask for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as he offered it to us! Another gift! Take it. He love you and wants you and all Christians to have the gift of pointing people to Christ in one way or another. You have faith brother? Take it. Never worry and never live in fear. God is with you.
Yes, God loves a repentant sinner. Look to Christ for your faith. You don't find it through introspection. Get baptized if you haven't been, partake of the Lord's supper, worship him in communion of the saints, study his word and pray to him. Don't spend a bunch of time interrogating your heart, spend your energy seeking to serve your King. Turn that over and over in your mind. Godspeed! Welcome back!
@@guyroszel7584 I didn't realize I had fallen I want the HOLY GHOST and not like this I was attacked and got into Spiritual sifted I want to come back and Satan know I don't belong .He was hitting me hard and I didn't understand. I didn't even read and study. Need to be restored and healed. I had the HOLY GHOST and don't remember what happened and got into flesh lies. The attack s mess my nerves
They are talking about animal sacrifice they was trying to go back to animal sacrifice and Paul was telling in Jesus Christ his only sacrifice will save you
?????? What ? What ? What ? Don't you know that Hebrews is written to all Christians? Read Chapter 1:1, 2 Read Chapter 2:3, 4 Read Chapter 12:22-25 GOD has spoken to US by His SON in fulfillment of Deuteronomy 18:15-19 / Acts 2:33 If you read John's Gospel (eg 14:23, 24) you will find the Lord reiterating this theme and it's found in Luke also (Luke 10:16) But as to "walking away from grace", That is made abundantly clear in Hebrews 3:12. Indeed Hebrews 3:14 uses the perfect tense to say we are become (Riight now) PARTAKERS OF CHRIST, And yet the inspired author uses the conditional clause in tandem with his statement: "IF hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end" This is no different to the warning the Lord gave us: "He that endures to the end shall be saved"
I'd like to make a slightly different point which is that the conditional Scripture passages you refer to don't imply that one has the capacity to fall away from faith by the free exercise of our will. They're merely observations that one will only be saved if one remains in the faith. Luther made the point that our will isn't free to choose either to believe or disbelieve and that it's like a beast of burden between two riders (God and Satan). If God rides us we go where God wills and if Satan rides us we go where Satan wills, and nor says Luther, can we choose who will ride us because it is the riders themselves who contend with each other as to who will take possession of us. Ultimately of course God is in control and therefore whether we're saved or damned has already been predetermined. So if people fall from the faith and are damned that is due to predestination not due to human free will. So whilst I agree that "once saved always saved" isn't Biblical, I don't agree with the Lutheran teaching that the act of falling away isn't predetermined by God. My conviction is that Luther was correct and the Formula of Concord wrong on this.
+Edward -- I can't fully tell from your post if you're in the Lutheran camp or not (my impression is that you are not but if you are my apology) but you might want to check out this article. *_"Why Lutheran Predestination Isn't Calvinist Predestination"_* by *Mathew Block* from _First Things_ www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/10/why-lutheran-predestination-isnt-calvinist-predestination
resurrectionjose I've previously read Mathew Block’s article and commented on it in the comments below it. But briefly I don't agree with his argument that Luther didn't endorse predestination to hell. There's nothing in Luther’s commentary on Genesis that actually supports this. It's plain that we can't know whether we're saved (and therefore conclude we're predestined to be saved) except through our faith in Christ since He is the only access to God that we have, but this doesn't rule out predestination to hell which Luther most certainly defends in The Bondage of the Will, and which he supports when he says in his Genesis commentary “I have written that everything is absolute and unavoidable”. Also there's a misunderstanding in Lutheran circles that Luther was opposed to reason and logic particularly with reference to predestination and that he was in agreement with the Formula of Concord on this. However this is completely mistaken. Luther only opposed reason when it sought to make a value judgement on the truthfulness of Scripture, however he defended to the utmost the use of reason when arguing from Scriptural premises. Therefore we find him making the following summary of his position in The Bondage of the Will which confirms he held predestination to both heaven and hell: “For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and predestines all things, that he can neither be mistaken in his foreknowledge nor hindered in his predestination, and that nothing takes place but as he wills it (as reason itself is forced to admit), then on the testimony of reason itself there can't be any free choice in man or angel or any creature”. (page 293, Luther's Works, Vol 33) By the way in my eyes I’m a Lutheran since I agree with Luther and support the teachings of the Book of Concord that were in existence during Luther's lifetime. However since Lutheranism since 1580 has been defined by acceptance of the Formula of Concord’s teaching on predestination, which I hold is in error (and which Luther wouldn't have agreed with), I don't refer to myself as a Lutheran.
+Edward -- Luckily while coming back here and re-reading the entirety of your post after digging around one of my external hard drives (it's normally hooked up to my laptop computer) for the titles of one or two books as well as looking up some stuff online, I noticed that I might have been a bit hasty or simply misread the second paragraph in your previous post. (Further below I'm going ahead and mention what I presumed at first and cite the title and accompanying link to Amazon.) The one thing I should have done but didn't bother to do because it might have been way too time-consuming is looking for a quotation in some book I have on former fundamentalist Christians ("Leaving The Fold..." by Edward Babinski) whereby the author either insinuates that Luther held to "double predestination" or directly quotes him by actually citing from one of his works. What I recall is something about the *_"acme of faith"_* and will probably look it up another time during the upcoming morning or afternoon. I also don't want to be rummaging around one of my bookshelves in another part of the house and near a family member who is sound asleep. :) All that being said, I think you're most probably right about Luther holding to *and* perhaps early on teaching "double predestination" while Lutheranism in general and many Lutherans in particular say otherwise. That article by Mathew Block is a case in point. I never bothered to read the comments section of his article which ironically enough is something I normally do since comments/posts by readers tend to be more interesting and enlightening than the article(s) themselves. I spotted your comment but won't be elaborating on it here. I will end with the following and touch upon what you said in the second paragraph. *_"Also there's a misunderstanding in Lutheran circles that Luther was opposed to reason and logic..."_* Even though I didn't go any further and cite the rest of what you said, on the whole you are correct. I had to also look around one of my other folders (simply entitled "Lutheranism") where I have 80+ eBooks and journal articles specifically on Martin Luther and Lutheranism. I'll assume you're familiar with the following book that I cited further below. I also took the liberty of citing the Baptist minister and theologian, Roger E. Olson, who had written a blog article showcasing that Luther did indeed hold to "double predestination." Lastly, even if Luther never uttered the same type of statements he did in earlier years I believe the usual criticisms against Calvinism (re: TULIP) or even a modified form of it (e.g., emphasis on 'T' and 'P' while giving short shrift to 'U', 'L', and 'I') can just as well be leveled at him. "Double predestination" no matter how it's sliced boils down to one group being chosen for eternal life (i.e., the Elect) and another group predestined to eternal perdition (i.e., the non-Elect). Mr. Olson in a few of his books on Arminianism (that includes one or two arguing *against* Calvinism) in my view does a splendid job of showing up a number of faulty lines of theological reasoning within Calvinist thought. About the one area that I think he *might* be waffling on is Romans 9 when he more or less quotes John Wesley: *_"It cannot mean, whatever it meant besides, that the God of truth is a liar....Let it mean what it will. It cannot mean that the Judge of all the world is unjust."_* Sounds great at first glance and I reckon eases one's troubled conscience as well as a good deal of cognitive dissonance regarding some "horrible decree" and God's love, but it seems to avoid the text itself and the necessary exegetical work needed in order to determine what that part of Romans (or more to the point chapters 9-11) means and not what we wish it to mean for the sake of squaring things away with some cherished or deeply held doctrine. (I'm trying to find a dissertation online that I have on hand that has since been published in a prestigious monograph series, 'Library of New Testament Studies', and will presume it's either not freely available anymore or I just haven't looked well enough. For the heck of it I will cite the title way at the end and attempt to find it another time. It part one of a trilogy on the entirety of Romans 9, and from an Arminian persuasion.) *_"The Devil's Whore. Reason and Philosophy in the Lutheran Tradition"_* (2011) edited by *Jennifer H. Dragseth* www.amazon.com/Devils-Whore-Philosophy-Lutheran-Tradition/dp/0800698509/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1517473976&sr=8-2&keywords=%27%27The+Devil%27s+Whore.+Reason+and+Philosophy+in+the+Lutheran+Tradition%27%27 *_"Luther and 'Double Predestination'"_* by *Roger E. Olson* www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/04/luther-and-double-predestination/ *_"Arminian Principles for Interpreting Romans 9."_* wesleyanarminian.wordpress.com/category/romans-9/ Brian J. Abasciano *_"Paul’s Use of the Old Testament in Romans 9.1-9. An Intertextual & Theological Exegesis"_* [LNTS] (2004)
resurrectionjose I clicked on your link to the article "Arminian Principles for Interpreting Romans 9" but I don't agree with the argument presented. Romans 9 is about individual predestination. One has to indulge in contorted arguments to arrive at the conclusion that Paul isn't discussing divine predestination to heaven and hell. Luther in "The Bondage of the Will", before presenting Scriptural proof for predestination, argues from the premise that God is omnipotent and omniscient and that God's foreknowledge can't be invalidated, that everything is predestined by God to happen. He argues that God's foreknowledge imposes necessity on everything happening exactly as He has foreknown it will, which means there's no human free will to do anything different. Luther's main emphasis was of course to refute free will in reply to Erasmus but in doing so he argued, totally convincingly, that everything is predestined by God to happen which he then proved from Scripture, in particular Romans 9. In addressing the point that God can't do anything which would seem to us to be unloving and unjust Luther makes the argument that we shouldn't judge God as if He was human as God's justice is above our understanding, and we'll only understand it in the next life when we see that He's perfectly just. (pages 289-293, Luther's Works, Vol 33).
Thank you for the upload I recently joined a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church in the area I live and I wanted to understand the Lutheran view. Grace and peace to all in Christ. ☺
As a child was taught that Hebrews 'falling aside' was failure to inherit all that has been allocated. Rich young ruler had the same problem. Moses failed to enter the physical promised land but was nevertheless redeemed.
I agree with you on this subject and that was how I was taught on the subject, and it's also what see in the scriptures on the subject. And I see scripture as wise to be warning Christians to be careful to remain in the faith. There's no reason why they can't lose their salvation through being overly confident of their standing with God, as the Pharisees of Jesus' time did! They need to be as a good watchman, Jesus said - living as though always waiting confidently (through always remembering to be watchful and careful) for Jesus' coming!
What do you mean? As regards to oneself - or as regards to those who fail to understand this subject correctly? Hebrews 7 - I think it is - explains how obedience is required - repentance is necessary. Exactly what the people of Israel - the majority refused to do. And repaed thei rjust reward as a result. @@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298
@@debbystevens7494, peace sister. I'm asking that if this video is true and a Christian can Spirit filled Christian can forfeit Salvation, then what are we as Christians supposed to do? Where do we find our assurance?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 What are we supposed to do? We are supposed to avoid all mortal sin. If we have the misfortune to commit a mortal sin God will forgive us if we have sincere repentance and if we go to Confession.
in this connection, Scripture can be properly and truly "boiled down" to 3 warnings, and 1 admonition, as follows: 1. there is the warning to the atheist/agnostic, not to be a "fool", via the rejectioin of God's reality; 2, there is the warning to those involved in false, God-rejected religions (); 3. there is the warning, against/to those who are among God's people, and who are yet NOT truly converted; these ones will be revealed as such, either here (1 John 2:19/Heb. 3:12), or hereafter (Matt. 7:19-21)..beyond these warnings 4. , there IS the admonition to God's people, to "make their calling/election sure", via the confirmation/reality of an "indwelling Christ" (Gal. 4:19; 2 Cor. 13:5); 5. is there, yet a group of "warnings" to God's people, that they can be "saved" today, and "lost" tommorrow? That the Son might NOT "live in their house forever"? That the "younger WILL serve the older"? That their "old man" will yet destroy, the "new man"? That "eternal life" has a "shelf-life" dependant upon the whim, of WEAK SINNERS, such as ourselves? That our "adoption" is "subject to cancellation" depending upon our conduct? Thjat Christ's saving work, was not only NOT "finished" (John 19:28-30), but needs to be "completed" by us?? That God's "love" (??), is yet STILL keeping a "record, of (our) wrongs", which is NOT to be "cleared" in this life?Absolutely not! Thus, "loss..." doctrine can never build a solid soterioloigy; their false anthropology/theolgy (i.e. that the Almighty God "bows" to the wills of His inful creatures!), simply cannot bear the weight, of a Biblical doctrine, re salvation.....I thank God, for many things,,,,,two of them, are that I did NOT follow my spiritually dead fathers Lutheran faith; yet, neither did I embrace my mothers' RC religion...how I thank God, for the post-Lutheran Reformers, who were enabled by God, to "tie these loose ends", left by such as Luther/Melancthon!!
What if some people fall away or are apostate and later return to Christ in genuine faith and repentance? I've heard very few of you guys expound on this!
The matter of Hymenaeus and Alexander puzzles me. The purpose of handing them over to Satan is that they might learn something (in their case, not to blaspheme). Why seek to teach someone who is gone for good to repent unless shipwreck is not quite as final as it sounds?
I'm a Lutheran and I'll attempt to answer your question. Key word being "attempt" lol. Anyways, Lutherans do hold to the belief of there being a certain group of people who are the elect, and these elect cannot fall finally away from the faith and end up in hell. While at the same time we hold to the idea that people can be true Christians and fall away from the faith as stated in this video. This is definitely confusing and paradoxical, but we believe these things because we think Scripture teaches them. God has chosen not to tie up the loose ends, so to speak. Every Christian comes to a point in which they ask the question "Why are some saved and not others?" Calvinists, Arminians, and Lutherans all have different answers to this. Calvinists say people are saved or damned by God's sovereign choice/work. Arminians traditionally say people are saved or damned by man's choice/work. Lutherans will say that people are saved by God's work alone, or are damned by man's choice alone. In other words, anyone who ends up in heaven can only say that it is by the grace of God alone that they were saved, and anyone who ends up in hell has no one to blame but him or herself for rejecting God's gracious gift of eternal life. Check out this episode of Pastor Cooper's podcast, which I think will answer a lot of your questions on the doctrine of election: justandsinner.libsyn.com/two-kinds-of-election Also, for an official explanation from the Lutheran Confessions, please refer to this link which is a reading from the Formula of Concord regarding election: www.bookofconcord.org/sd-election.php
Sterling Crowne Actually the entire counsel of scripture teaches it. Just as the verses that speak of election are true, the other verses that speak of falling away from the faith are also true. Warnings against falling away are, as far as my memory serves me, in EVERY New Testament book. No matter who each book is addressed to. It is simply the plainest understanding of the verses to understand them to be a warning to keep the faith. I would also like to stress that Lutheran preaching does not delve into the question of “Am I really elect?” Since we believe as scripture teaches that Christ died for all human beings, and that God desires all to be saved, we teach that if someone is a believing Christian who is continuing in the faith, they have absolutely no reason to believe they are not elect. It is important to understand that Lutherans hold to the scriptural teaching of single predestination. This means God elects people to salvation, but does not actually elect people to eternal damnation. Therefore, election is meant to solely be a doctrine of comfort. If someone is a repentant believer in Jesus Christ, they can surely believe that he died for them.
“On the other hand, they recall the unchangeable, divine promise that no one of them can be Lost, as St. Paul says “the lord knows those who are His” and those whom He foreknown He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son” Saint Augustine- The city of God book XVIII chapter 51
No, we abandon him however. Calvin's theology came from augustine, who invented predestination as a desperate response to pelagius in their letter correspondence. Augustin spent 9 years with the manichaens, its no wonder he had such repugnant doctrine.
"regret your sins to remain saved" is not scriptural, paul affirmed that the unrepentant people who were doing things i can't even mention at corinth were still saved. 1 corinthians 5:5 persevering to the end to be saved makes salvation a "maybe in the future" instead "yes i'm saved in the present moment" with the latter being scriptural. the former is a works based salvation that shifts the focus to the sinner and not the saviour. christ cannot be crucified multiple times and you cannot be born of the spirit more than once so a moment of questioning your faith and then believing again doesn't mean you lost your salvation.
When Arminians affirm that Christians can fall away, and when Calvinists deny it, it's often because they are agreed upon the assumption or presupposition that perseverance ultimately depends on the human being. But that's not the only possibility. It seems to me that Augustianism allows for the falling away from the faith not ultimately due to man's will/choices, but God's will and choices. That is, when God withholds or withdraws the gift of perseverance. I think that's a perfectly consistent and logical third option. Augustinians believe in the perseverance of All the *ELECT*, but not of All *SAINTS* [since the elect are a subset of the saints, unlike in Calvinism where they are coterminous]. The question then is, whether God is the kind of God who could or would do something like that. As a Calvinist myself, I could argue either way. On the one hand, I could argue that God's ability to withhold/withdraw the gift of perseverence is (or could be considered) a manifestation of God's Sovereignty that's even higher/stronger than the usual Calvinist position that holds to the "P" in TULIP. On the other hand, it would seem to me that most Evangelical Christians (including Calvinists, Arminians et al.). would not like to think of God as an "Indian Giver" (no ethnic slur intended). It would seem that God doesn't really love these people whom He has previously redeemed. Contrary to the Bible's teaching that God's covenant love is everlasting and that "He who did not spare His own Son, but gave Him up for us all; how shall He not also graciously/freely give us all things?" (Rom. 8:32). If God gave initial salvation, and perseverance is ultimately up to Him, then it's not the case that God graciously and freely gives believers all things if He withholds/withdraws the gift of perseverance from them. While a minority of Calvinists believe God has no love for the non-elect, most Calvinists believe that God has some kind of love or common grace towards the non-elect. But given the Augustianian view, there's actually three (instead of two) groups of people. Those whom God 1. either don't love at all [e.g. in Hyper-Calvinism] or loves less because they aren't saved; 2. those whom God loves fully to such an extent that He grants them the ongoing gift of perseverance, and 3. the third group whom God "kinda sorta" fully loves redemptively, but yet doesn't REALLY and truly fully love, otherwise He would grant them perseverance. In which case, God would almost be schizophrenic in His attitude towards this third group. For that reason, I lean toward the standard Calvinistic view of the Perseverance of the Saints.
_"When Arminians affirm that Christians can fall away, and when Calvinists deny it, it's often because they are agreed upon the assumption or presupposition that perseverance ultimately depends on the human being."_ I strongly disagree with this line. Calvinists affirm that God is the perseverer, not man. Read Westminster Confession chapter 17 _Of the Perseverance of the Saints_ and see that the first two sections are all about what God does in salvation. When it finally gets to man in the third and final section, it is all about the ways that man screws up.
@@oracleoftroy Re-reading that sentence of mine, I realize that I too quickly wrote it and expressed what I meant to say incorrectly. I"m a Calvinist and I do agree with you that Calvinists believe God is the preserver, not man. In fact, sometimes the 5th point of Calvinism, "The Perseverance of the Saints", is sometimes called "The Preservation of the Saints" by Calvinists because ultimately God is the one who preserves the believer, rather than the believer being the ultimate cause of their perseverance. Because God empowers them and ensures that they will, inexorably, persevere. I agree with that. What I actually meant to say in that incorrectly phrased statement is: //When Arminians affirm that Christians can fall away, and when Calvinists deny it, it's often because they are agreed upon the assumption or presupposition that [falling away] ultimately depends on the human being. But that's not the only possibility. // Since Calvinists believe that God has the power to cause true believers from falling away, it doesn't occur to them that true believers can fall away. But that's because they have the additional presupposition that God wouldn't allow/permit a true believer to fall away. Whereas Augustinians don't accept that assumption that God wouldn't allow/permit a true believer to fall away. Despite the fact that Augustinians also agree with Calvinists that God has the power to prevent a true believer from falling away [which Augustinians describe as the additional "gift of perseverance"].
@@oracleoftroy In addition to the correction that I made above. I have to say that Augustinians also [generally] believe that falling away is ultimately due to man's will. They usually deny double predestination, or any positive decree of damnation. However, some people, like myself, would argue that it's technically not true that falling away is ultimately due to the human will given Augustinianism. Since, in Augustinianism God could have given the gift of perseverance to any and all saints. Yet, God intentionally refuses to do that for some saints [for whatever inscrutable reasons He has]. In which case, logically speaking, folks like myself would argue that in Augustinianism falling away is ultimately due to God's will not man's. Though, Augustinians like to focus on human will as the cause, rather than God's will to protect God's honor.
What would be the FINAL step to "walk away from grace" all together? Simply becoming an atheist or something before that, such as unrepentant sin until the hour of death? Also would losing faith mean just no eternal life or also suffering eternally in Hell?
You have to distinguish between faith and grace. Not everyone that has faith in Christ is in the state of grace. The devil has faith (Luke 4:34) but no grace. The rich man, in the Lazarus/rich man parable, had faith in God and in his spiritual father Abraham, but no grace. Committing just one mortal sin kills the grace in our soul. The grace of God can be re-gained by a sincere repentance and Confession, but there are people who become so jaded and obstinate in their sins that they do lose their faith and refuse to repent or confess.
I guess no one is going to answer how there are many Christians who do return to faith and true repentance after falling away from Christ for years. Either they have not committed the sin of irrevocable apostasy or is there a possibility we're reading Hebrews 6:4-6 wrong?
I confess this whole debate mystifies me. Isn't it a question of loyalty? I can't possibly be good enough to earn God's love. I've earned destruction in concrete ways and nothing I can do will change that. I accept this as fact. Where does that leave me? I have to trust Him when He says I'm forgiven even as I can't understand why. And now I'm going to betray him again? If so He won't have to condemn me when I stand before Him. I'll do it myself.
Salvation is believing on Jesus for salvation. It's God's gift and He, through the Holy Spirit does the good works; our works don't matter. If we truly believe, then we will obey Jesus. "Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
Our works demonstrate the reality of our faith. They do matter. Without getting into the weeds, good works are what we are saved {for} (that's supposed to communicate italics).@@Anony584
Brother, the idea that the warning passages are one of the means by which we as God's children are made to persevere does not make the warning passages meaningless. Take a passage later on in the book of Acts for example: God promised Paul that he and everyone on the ship were going to be saved, that they would not perish. Nevertheless, Paul still warns everyone to remain on the ship, lest they perish. Paul's warning was the very means through which God fulfilled his promise to Paul that none of them would die in the storm.
God is the final decider.We petition him and wait.Whatever he comes up with,we need to accept that,We need to listen to him.He knows what is best for us.Dont force him by increasing the intensity and capacity of your brain power, because you will be sweating your guts out.WORKING....!!!!?????
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Phillipians 1:6 Can you please explain how this verse fits in as well?
Philippians 1:6 has to be interpreted in the light of Matthew 10:22 (Scripture interprets Scripture). If we persevere in grace, avoiding mortal sin, repenting of mortal sin if we have the misfortune to commit one, then yes, we will grow to perfection in Christ.
Any Christian can fall away if they let the world take hold of their hearts. No one is immune from falling that is why it is vital we stay focused on Christ. 2Peter 3:17 “You therefore, beloved, know this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.” On e saved, always saved is Calvinistic.
Either because you enjoy sinning like lust,fornication, greed or you start questioning your salvation by not meeting certain standards and you feel your unworthy or not truly saved
I've heard from a Lutheran Pastor that God gives us the faith to believe......so does he take it away? And what do the words "eternal life" mean if not eternal?.....How many times can we "fall away" and then come back....does Scripture say? I'm not being sarcastic here, I just see so much evidence for OSAS compared to the verses that possibly say the opposite.....shouldn't we go with the preponderance of Scripture?
I think Scripture says that those who fall away can not return. At times it seems almost like there are 2 groups. 1 being Elect and 2 being those who come to Faith. Maybe the truly elect can not fall away but those whom follow Christ can. I’m probably wrong, but I fail to understand how it sometimes seems like there are different rules applied to “Elect” than other Christians.
Eternal life is the knowledge of Him, jn 17.3. It is participation in His uncreated life. When we stop obeying the gospel we become disconnected from grace and need to be renewed. David experienced this and thus said, God take not your holy Spirit from me. See you soon , iakobe.
God never takes away salvation (more accurately called "the state of grace" because no one knows for certain that he will be saved). Nor can any power in Heaven or on earth....except....we ourselves. The state of grace is a free gift, true, but like any gift it can be thrown away. We lose the state of grace by committing just one mortal sin, but God is merciful and will restore us to the state of grace if we sincerely repent and go to Confession. Once-saved-always-saved is a license to sin and I think deep down everybody recognizes that.
What is meaning of the term 'grace' ? And what should 'sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory' really mean ?
We don’t need to go any further we don’t need to speak we don’t need to do anything at all all we know is your faith is not our faith make sure you have the correct faith
I’m trying to understand Protestant Christianity and It reminds me the Common Law (I’m an LLM): there are plenty of different ”churches” based on different literal interpretation of the scriptures. But in this way, Everyone can wake up and invent a new interpretation and therefore a new church. But what is the point in multiply churches? I think that this law/lawyer approach to Christ creates a lot of rules and tires but It does not answer to the existential questions of the people. Christians never had copies of the bible for the first 1.400 years... how could they be Christians without a book? I think that the main point of the Christianity is the event itself (god becomes a man); not the creation of another holy book. I prefer the catholic style because it’s more like civil law: one code to avoid endless discussion that make the message distant for the people. The first Christians were fisherman and sheppards, not intellectuals. Christ is love and love is simple. You don’t need to study to be in love; you just need to find someone. This is how humans works; this is how love work. The risk is too create a club for people interested in details. Sorry if I sounded offensive; it was not my intention. I just wanted to state my pony; I appreciate what you do; but maybe I’m too catholic for that...
In my own opinion, Catholicism resembles common law because of the development of doctrine, and the ongoing harmonization of multiple sources of authority (the consensus of bishops, the Patristic writings, the Scriptures, the councils, and private revelations such as Fatima) with the Papacy as the final court of appeal. Protestantism resembles civil law because of its insistence upon self-contained documents (compare the Book of Concord or the Westminster Confession to the Napoleonic Code, for instance).
Protestants (not counting Lutherans and Anglicans) think we are regenerated when we have an emotiinal experience at a revival meeting.(Hallelujah, brethren, I'm saved!) Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans believe that this happens at the time of Baptism. Which is correct? That emotional experience can be very powerful. But emotions change. Quite often Protestants are told that after their salvation experience that they won't even WANT to sin any more, and when subsequent temptations and sins occur they are confused----hey, I'm not supposed to even want to sin anymore but here am I sinning, am I really saved? But if our faith is in our Baptism (and faith in Baptism is faith in Christ because Christ instituted Baptism) then that never changes. Yes, we can fall back into sin after our Baptism but we can always repent and confess, if we are truly sorry and have the intention of sinning no more. Emotions can be good (or bad). But emotions are not salvation.
Thank you. I came to Lutheranism from Reformed Presbyterian tradition. I was a bit surprised when I learned this is the Lutheran understanding, and at the same time I had wondered about these passages + the parable of the sower. I have told a friend who asked about it that, "It is possible to forfeit our faith, but our Lord doesn't make it EASY to, by His means of grace, His shepherding, His making us alive and giving us faith. I heard another POV on this described as God having a piece of chalk in one hand and an eraser in the other, at the Book of Life, and that's not what I see in Lutheran doctrine.
The parable of the sewer is not a good way to argue against OSAS - it's about whether the plant bears fruit or not, not whether there is, in fact, a plant.
I do think for sure that there is such a thing as false conversion in the case of the tares among the wheat, not to mention the fact that I lived in sin before I was converted truly, and after gaining a right understanding of the gospel I now know the truth and it has made me free.
@@tomtemple69 God knows... the content of scripture seems to say yes even by the framework of the parables. Until the stalks all ripen, who knows how the heads will flower? Also I am Orthodox now, I used to be lcms.
@@tomtemple69 it's an analogy, not something that means exactly what it says, it's a hedge around the truth, not an assertion of what is precisely the case, in other parables the people can transform into the other kind, so it needs to be viewed through the lens of what has always been believed...
I am just recently seeing your videos come up. Any time an individual speaks truth I am thrilled to hear them continue but so many speak a partial truth its exhausting at times sifting through everything they say; and in those cases, I prefer to just let UA-cam know I am not interested in seeing the channel recommended further. You say one can walk away from salvation and I must agree, but you also mention sin and faith? Sin naturally comes between God and ourselves; as in the Adamic state we prefer to be our own god, our own authority? I am curious then to know what faith in your view accomplishes; how, where it comes from, by what means? I do not think faith can be over stated in a Christian world view, but I do think most … by far … who would say I am a Christian believer, lack a biblical understanding of this key? From the title; Can a True Christian Fall Away from the Faith? I am disheartened, but you did say the langrage being used was to reach a broad viewership?
I like these videos but I think he missed the calvanist perspective here. The idea isnt that cooperation is not explicitly laid out in scripture alongside faith. Any calvanist worth their salt will agree all day long with that. The issue is this ever present idea that along with personal cooperation, God still simultaneously maintains control over his elect. If you look to the trinity, does God being 3 persons work within our understanding? Or do we fundamentally believe it because is shown to be true in scripture? Calvanism works the same way.
If you don't wish to go with "apparent" faith, what qualifications ARE you willing to impose? In the Parable of the Sower, which you cite, ALL of the seed falling on tilled ground produces a crop. It is only on the periphery of the field--on the path, on the edge, in a weed-infested corner--where there is a possibility of fecundity failure. What then is different about the plants with weak, shallow, or temporary growth? Is their faith not QUALITATIVELY distinct? If indeed they ARE regenerate, isn't it in some lesser sense? They don't enjoy the same environment, the same protections, the same spiritual nourishment as the elect. They receive the regenerative gifts of the Spirit without receiving the providential gifts needed to maintain that spark of life. Sounds to me like their faith is at the very least deficient if not downright invalid. Remember, living faith is more than mere intellectual assent; it is a rooted and grounded trust in the Sower; a mystical union with Christ that issues forth in good works (crops, in this case).
Any way you cut the mustard the parable of the seeds and the sower clearly shows that salvation can be lost Man cannot take salvation away from us. God will not take salvation away from us. No power on earth or Heaven will take away our salvation. And it certainly is a free gift. But like all gifts we ourselves can throw it away. All it takes is one mortal sin. Salvation (better described as the state of grace) can be regained if we have sincere repentance and make a good Confession.
Isn't offensive to say to a Christian "You're not a real Christian if you backslid due to hardships", is feeling convicted of your sins not enough sign that you're a genuine Christian? And to say to atheists who are former Christians, "You were never a true Christian", isn't that offensive? If an atheist will say that He once felt convicted on sin, isn't that enough that they were "saved"? If an atheist will say he experienced "Slain by the Spirit" before, isn't that enough that he was "really saved"?
as a Reformed, who holds to "Perseverance", I am ther first to acknowledge that there are MANY texts, which APPEAR to teach "loss"....but I can say, with complete confidence, that to go "loss" on this question causes one to give an iron-clad certainty to passages that have NO such condition (i.e. the [supposed] "loss" passages); and to conversely "gut" those many passages that affirm the opposite; in other words, the "loss" passages can be much more easily be integrated into the doctrine of "Perseverance...", where full value can given to them, re Christian instruction; contrariwise, is the reverse; "loss" doctrine makes an absolute MESS of one's doctrine; it has NO mechanism, to extract any real value to the many crystal-clear passages that affirm/confirm the permanence of salvation; it shatters the whole thing, an leaves Christianity, as "just another religion" which teaches you, to "keep yourself saved", via your "good works"; thus, Wesley and all who follow in his train-wreck, basically deny the "Solas" of the Reformation....how I THANK GOD, that He is NOT as you "loss..." peddlars portray Him!! It is simply NOT possible, to reconcile Luther, in his truthful and lucid moments, with the "loss..." doctrine; thus you Lutherans are content to just "live with the tension", and (sadly!) affirm the "loss..." error....
We Roman Catholics believe so. A true Christian can lose his faith, loose his state of grace, and if he dies without repentance, he will condemn himself forever. You have made some very good points about that here.
I think of one falls away, the better way to describe it in my opinion is they never had a Christ-centered foundation of faith, as shown in the parable of the sower. Those who have a Christ-centered foundation of faith, will never fall away.
One of my friends had a true salvation experience. But for many years he lived a backslide life. Yet before few months before his death the Lord restored him to fellowship with him. His last life was very spiritual till his death. In heavenly peace and assurance he died in faith. This proves that a truly born again believer can never loose his salvation. Praise the Lord for His eternal grace.
No it doesn’t. It just proves that if we fall into the Valley and are brought back, it’s a gift from God, not our work. In the same way, it’s God who gives us the gift of Faith, and if we persevere, it’s because of the Holy Spirit, not us. But Scripture is clear that we can reject/wreck our faith. So I praise God that your friend was like the Prodigal Son. That truly is good news. But I think it proves a different point then you may believe. God Bless
Even if they can, I don't believe for a second that God wouldn't be actively pursuing them to come home. The parable of the Lost sheep runs entirely counter in my mind to the idea that someone can walk away and God just let's them go without protest or attempts to restore the relationship.
13:10 But there are cliffs, and only those who are really saved are able to take the warning signs to heart. "...And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me." Jeremiah 32:40 The Bible speaks using language of real salvation being lost because it's directed at everyone and the authors made no assumptions as to the genuineness of the reader's confession - all Christians at least profess to have true salvation. Therefore the warnings are given and true believers will heed those warnings and false professors will disregard.
1 Corinthians 15:1 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1 Corinthians 15:3 - For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Corinthians 15:4 - And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Acts 16:30 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be Saved? Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy House.
What do you say when a person struggles with and fell away for a time. Are they now not allowed to come back? Would the prodigal son analogy or Peter renouncing Jesus at the crucifixion count as a means of a repenting or returning to the faith. This has been something I struggle with as a believer.
I am confused because in one video you stated that faith is a gift from God, and here you claim that we can lose that faith, even though you had said before that it is not us who has this faith. A lot of what you are saying here does not line up with other videos. Please explain how faith is from God, and somehow we can forsake this faith, even though we could not obtain it by our own power.
Gifts can be lost, can't they? Suppose my rich eccentric aunt gave me a million dollars for Christmas. A free gift, right? I could lose that million by misplacing the check, right? Or I could blow it all on Vegas. The state of grace is like this---once God gives it He won't take it back and no one can take it from us, but we can blow it, and all it takes to blow it is one mortal sin.
@@dragoncomosaics9282 Thanks. I agree with that video. I hold to the doctrines of eternal security because the Bible is so clear. Yet I hear so many conflicting views that I am confused at times.
Some say that Lutherans believe both that it is possible to lose one's faith, and that it is possible for the believer to have complete assurance of his own salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. ¿Is it true? ¿How can those two sentences be both true? ¿How can I have complete assurance of salvation through faith if I know that I can loose my faith?
When I hear "lose your salvation" I dont think of it being taken from me etc. I think of it as walking away or apostasy. Hence all of the constant talk of " holding till the end" , " abiding in the vine" , "Persevere till the end" etc. etc.
No one can abide by their own willpower
Only by the Holy Spirit can ANYONE abide or endure...
@@tomtemple69I deed the operation of the Holy Spirit through the Gospel - called:
"The hearing of faith"
(Galatians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 1 Peter 1:5)
Excellent. No better way to put it. As Dr. Michael Brown puts it "you can't lose your salvation...but you can forfeit it."
And I think that language works better with the entirety of the Old Testament.
@@divinityofblackness6330Absolutely. Consider the wording of Ezekiel 33:13. Romans 8:13 reflects essentially a parallel of that verse.
@bairfreedom
anyone believing they can "walk away".. or "apostate".. themselves... does NOT believe in what Calvinism teaches..
those who have been called by God unto salvation.. have received the "irresistible call of the Spirit"
this call of the Spirit does Not get directed by God... to someone.. and draws them to God.. Only to allow them to by their own will.. walk away from what God has called them to ... at any point in the future..
God does not treat us like yo-yo's on strings.. or even like a kite on a string.. where we can go flying away from Him...
any who have received the call of the Spirit..in other words... called by God.. are His for keeps..
as a Calvinist... I DO believe.. that God has chosen to harden some hearts as he did with the Pharaoh's of Moses day... for reasons known ONLY to Him... but.. these hearts will reject the call from the beginning.... hence blaspheming the spirt... Matthew 12:31-32....these will Not be saved at all..
therefore doomed to the unpardonable sin...
I do not believe one can "un-save" themselves.. nor will God withdraw His salvation for ones He has chosen... this would be saying that God makes mistakes..
He doesn't..
I am a a reformed guy... But I love these videos. I appreciate you *brother.* You challenge me... and that's always a good thing. God bless you friend!
Reformed theology is false doctrine
God bless you!
As long as you're being honest and seeking the scripture and not a theologian like White or Durbin to explain it away in textual criticism or Calvinistic doctrine rather than just God's word then you'll be okay.
@@Livelife95ify are you saying that the entirety of reformed theology is false?
If so then that would mean that you are saying that the diety of Christ is false, salvation by faith through grace (alone) is false, etc... do you believe those things are false?
@@Bible_Loving_Lutheran would you agree that the same thing applies to non calvinists?
As a Presbyterian I struggled with these text, as a Lutheran I have peace. Scripture alone! Peace
Scripture alone but your church follows tradition?
I would suggest you have studied more but glad you have peace no matter what. The Scriptures scream to us that God PRESERVES His people. The "if" passages aren't prescriptive. Prove it to me from the Greek. They are DESCRIPTIVE. Showing what the true Christians will do. Perseverance of the Saints. The warning passages are not hypothetical. Apostasy is real...but again not for the born again child of God.
As a Lutheran, I struggled with these texts. Now, as a Presbyterian, I have peace.
There are many passages that suggest that salvation can never be lost or forfeited and there are many passages that suggest that salvation can indeed be lost or forfeited. That is why the Protestant notion that every believer can interpret the Scripture for himself is totally wrong. We need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church, sometimes called the magisterium.
Our Holy Mother the Catholic Church teaches that the state of grace can indeed be forfeited (Dr. Cooper is quite correct to say that "forfeited" is a better word here than "lost") and all it takes is one mortal sin. The state of grace can be regained by a sincere repentance and good Confession.
@@honeybee-k9z The Confessional Lutheran church preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified and that alone is our Peace.
You speak against things you do not understand.
1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." People that leave the faith, stop abiding in it, fall away or whatever way you want to state it....were never truly saved....or they would not have left.
The passage you cite has nothing to do with a question of perseverance or the assertion of once saved always saved. John is warning against false prophets, antichrists, liars, deceivers, etc.
I scratched my head on this but unlocked the Lutheran DaVinci Code if you will. In Lutheranism you can have real true regenerate "Christians"...all Baptized barbies!!!! So...because the Sacramental efficacy is of main focus always you must be able to account for those who "fall away" after having received true efficacious grace in the water of Baptism. Once you get past this you see Lutherans squirming whenever Calvin is mentioned (sad because Calvin admired Luther unto death) but at the CORE soteriology....and I mean the CORE...there is no difference. What about universal grace? Same answer. You need universal grace to subsidize the efficacy of infant Baptismal regeneration and you must have true apostates as an excuse to handle when one of the Non Elect falls away (yet they truly were BAPTIZED). So...the reason I say that at the CORE. ...the Sola Fide Monergistic CORE is the same is because Lutheran Theology teaches that the ELECT OF GOD shall NEVER perish ..... im good with that. The Apostates they speak of are visible church stragglers...covenant fallouts. Similar to Federal Vision in the sense that there are the Covenantally Elect (Baptized) and then there are the Decretally Elect (regenerated). We have a similar stance in Presbyterianism with the visible and invisible church we just never teach that A regenerated heart can become unregenerated...its a difference in our language and that for the reasons stated above the Lutherans claim that real born again Christians can be lost but never the Elect. We teach that ONLY the Elect are Born Again.
Shalom.
Marcus Williams
no it’s not. They were with us, which means that they were thought to be Christians, but their leaving showed that they weren’t.
@@itslitgamestv6827 Incorrect. That text is talking about Antichrists. It explains who the “they” are and what the “they” were doing. The “they” were Antichrists and they were outright denying that Jesus is the Christ.
Now, however, since you have come to know [the true] God [through personal experience], or rather to be known by God, how is it that you are turning back again to the weak and worthless elemental principles [of religions and philosophies], to which you want to be enslaved all over again?
Galatians 4:9
God has given us a choice.. if we are willing to continue with God he will sustain us.. just like we were willing to be saved while he is the one who saves us..
If a person wants to return to deceptive teachings and fall away it's their choice.. and God will not stop because we are humans.. not robots!
It seems to me that many of the Christian traditions attempting to grapple with the issue of salvation and election are divided because they see it from different vantage points. Because Reformed Christians take seriously God's sovereignty, they attempt to look at it from God's perspective, by which they conclude that God will save those whom he will save. Those who fall away were never elect to begin with. This is what God sees.
On the other hand, from a human perspective it certainly appears that those who once claimed to be saved have indeed lost their salvation. Hence the warnings in Scripture. Arminians and Lutherans take these passages seriously, with the former assuming that we must co-operate with God's "prevenient grace" and the latter taking more of a paradoxical approach yet affirming ultimately that our salvation comes from God alone.
North American evangelicals, i.e., the heirs of the 18th- and 19th-century awakenings and revivals, start out as Arminians but try to end up as Calvinists. That is, they believe that once one has "accepted Jesus Christ as personal saviour," one is in the fold and nothing he does afterwards will take him out of the fold. Hence the carnal Christians that we hear about in these circles. This is a serious deformation of the Reformation.
I myself am Reformed, but I would take issue with those in our churches, especially young people, who believe they can drink to excess and live more or less as they like because they are already "in." That is a presumptuous approach to God's grace that fails to take seriously the need for sanctification.
Thanks for the video. Very interesting.
I just want to respond to your comment where you said, "...Reformed Christians take seriously God's sovereignty,...". All due respect, and I mean that sincerely... I see Calvinists make this false claim all the time. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the non-Calvinists, if not all of the one's I know do indeed take God's "sovereignty" serious. I've studied the subject of the varying views of soteriology for quite a few years and what I see is a mistake made by Calvinists where they define "sovereignty" in an idiosyncratic way. If Calvinists would correctly define sovereignty it would cause them to put aside a bias they have based on a false presupposition of God's sovereignty.
I would agree with you. Some people misunderstand Soverign grace and replace it with a sloppy grace.
PAUL'S WORDS do read and take serious. Because your reasoning is FULL of the creeds and traditions of men and we must discern absolute from relative arguments. This one is an absolute one and not subject to relativism or further context.
Romans 8:38
"38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow-not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below-indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord."
If indeed" nothing in all of creation will ever be able to seperate us from the love of God "then we as Christians cannot fall away even when we try.
I don't care for opinions and am merely here to call out such heresy. I say this as one who has witnessed EL ELYON on his throne, of whom I did not know of and who's face I could not see on the throne, until I was "sanctified" on his right hand side. Not by my works, but by his decree "that [I] might believe" and never can fall away despite wrestling with God and my faith in him.
Sanctification is nothing you yourself do. Our actions are merely the affirmation of such heavenly decrees. But once saved, we are never in no wise - panteles - able to lose salvation. Period.
Because He knew squabbles of this nature would come up, Jesus in His wisdom did not leave us orphans----He established the Catholic Church and gave it infallible teaching authority.
Our Holy Mother the Catholic Church teaches that salvation (the "state of grace ") can be forfeited, and all it takes is one mortal sin. The Church further teaches that the state of grace can be re-gained by a sincere repentance and good Confession .
@@a-sheep-of-christ Nothing will separate us from God's love. God loves saints and sinners alike. If we sin and break from Him, we lose our salvation (we lose the state of grace) but He still loves. God punished Adam and Eve but He still punished them.
God even loves the souls in Hell. The fire they experience is only the fire of His love, experienced by the souls in Hell as painful because they do lot love God back. They will stay in Hell forever but God still loves them.
So "nothing can separate us from God's love" does not mean once-saved-always-saved.
Once-saved-always-saved is a license to sin.
Thank you for making these videos! I have been Christian (Lutheran) all my life and it is always comforting to hear the Truth (even when it hurts, it heals). Thanks be to God!
Peace.
Do you agree with this video? If so, why?
Some Christians believe that if a saved person enters into a sinful lifestyle and fails to repent then he will still get to heaven but will lose rewards. Their proof text is 1 Cor. 3:13-15 which say, “his work will be shown for what it is … the fire will test the quality of each man’s work … If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames”. Notice that these verses are referring to the testing of a man’s work, not sin.
If the passage in 1 Cor. 3-4 was talking about sin then it would be saying -
I) Those who build with good, golden sins will be rewarded.
II) Those who build with not so good, straw sins will lose their rewards.
Of course this is ridiculous. Whoever heard of building a church with sin or God rewarding someone for sin? In this article, I would like to show that these verses are not speaking about sin in the least but about how we work to build the church on the foundation of the gospel of Jesus.
Beginning with 1 Cor. 1:11- 13 and 1 Cor. 3:1-8, these verses tell us that the Corinthians were fighting about whether they should follow Paul, Apollos or Cephas. Paul said that their focus should be on Jesus because men are mere servants with assigned tasks; one man plants, another waters and each man will be rewarded according to his own labour. Next, in 1 Cor. 3:9-11, he continues on to say that we are God’s workers, His field and His building (His church) and that he, Paul, has laid a foundation as an expert builder and each of us must be careful how we build on that foundation, which is Jesus Christ.
Then 1 Cor. 3:12-15 talk about how we build the church and warn that fire will test the quality of each man’s work. The verses say that we can -
a) Build with gold, silver or costly stones and receive our reward or
b) Build with wood, hay or straw and, although we will still be saved, our work will be burned up.
Building with gold, silver or costly stones represent good leadership and sound doctrine while wood, hay and straw represent poor leadership and unsound doctrine. Sin is not in question here.
So far, Paul has spoken about building the church with either good or poor leadership and doctrine but now he continues on to speak about bad leadership and doctrine which destroys a church. 1 Cor. 3:16-17 say, “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you [plural] are that temple”. The term “God’s temple” is referring to the church, the body of Christ, and these verses say that God will destroy anyone who destroys His church (see 2 Pet. 2).
Then, from 1 Cor. 3:18, Paul continues on to further warn us not to follow men. In 1 Cor. 4:6 he sums up what he has said so far (from 1 Cor. 3:1) by saying that he has applied these things to himself and Apollos so that we could learn the meaning of the saying, “’Do not go beyond what is written.’ Then you will not take pride in one man over against another”. He is saying that the entire passage is to warn us not to follow men but to stay with what is written. In 1 Cor. 4:2 he said, “it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful”, and it is by not going beyond what is written that we remain faithful to that trust.
So we can see that this passage of scripture has nothing to do with sin. It is a warning for us not to follow men’s wisdom but to use the written Word to build on the foundation of Jesus because our rewards will be according to the way we build.
If we build with sound biblical doctrine then we will be rewarded.
If we build with poor doctrine then we will still be saved but lose our rewards.
If anyone destroys the church then he will be destroyed.
If we attempt to make sin the context of this passage then it will make no sense at all as words like build, labour and work don’t relate to sin. Likewise, sin can’t be related to building with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay and straw unless we say that we will be rewarded for good sins and lose our reward for bad sins. The fact is, sin is not the subject of this passage.
To make it a bit clearer, let’s consider a Christian who dies while refusing to repent of his adultery. Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) believers will say that he will still get to heaven but lose some rewards. This is entirely out of context with the passage in question as the man was not building on the foundation of Jesus while he was in adultery, he was just fulfilling his lusts. He wasn’t building the church while he remained in sin, he was just building his condemnation. The truth is, this passage is taken entirely out of context by OSAS believers. An unrepentant sinner will not suffer a loss of rewards for his sin but eternal condemnation.
Unsound doctrine is sin.
This is the best biblical explanation that I have heard about walking away from the faith and YES because you have a free will you can lose your salvation
I agree. We don't lose God. God will never let his people go. God will never take your salvation away. But we can definitely reject what has been freely given to us. Who in their right mind would ever want to do such a thing? Not me!
@ben1344 That is a great question. It may appear like it is saying that, if you fall away your chance for salvation is gone forever. That is not the case. Note this part: "crucifying to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame". Note the verbs are present tense. They cannot be reconciled while they are rejecting Christ---literally being an antichrist and repudiating Him. It is the same meaning when Christ says, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already". In that case condemnation is a present tense reality. But that does not mean repentance and reconciliation is impossible. That does not mean they can never come back.
Note how the following verses are positive: "Even tho we speak in this way, we are convinced of better things regarding you, beloved. Things regarding SALVATION." And then he goes on to specifically point out the promise of God to Abraham to bless you. And that God swore an oath that this is an unchangable thing. And that we have "hope as an achor of the soul". The point of that passage is to urge us to continue on to the end. Did not Peter even deny Christ himself? And yet was restored.
"And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given me, but raise it up on the last day"
John 6:39
If it's left up to me to persevere in the maintenance of faith, I am doomed to failure. I've ever been able to consistently do what I'm supposed to do, or ought to do, or need to do. In fact, the more I try, the more I seem to rebel. I have zero trust in myself. The miracle for me is the fact that when I finally threw in the towel and gave it all to God, I began to do the right things without even having to try very hard. I don't think I chose God....I think that He chose me, and in order to persevere in faith, I have to believe that He's got a plan, and it WILL be completed! If that makes me a Calvinist, then so be it. Blessings to all.
You might be interested to hear this: ua-cam.com/video/KOlT3bOI0Kw/v-deo.html
Awesome assessment. I've been writing recently arguments againts OSAS and this is a helpful resource.
It appears to me, that Lutherans are speaking out of both sides of their mouth on this issue. " You can fall away, but don't worry, God preserves his people". Well...which is it? If I fall away, then i was never his, or he would have preserved me.
That is why the orthodox Christian belief from the apostles is endure to the end. We must abide in Christ or else we are cut off the vine.
@@FrMoody I've read several Palamist sermons insisting on "I'm being saved," and Lutherans would not deny it. But what do you so with the broader morphology of "save" in the NT? It certainly says we are being saved, but it also says "He saved us...by the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit," and "By grace you have been saved."
biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4982.htm
I don't know how Dr. Cooper feels but his hero Martin Luther taught that only the loss of faith resulted in the loss of salvation, that no believer loses salvation by committing sin. "If anyone should still believe in the stupid ten commandments let him chase himself to the Jews," Luther said.
You are begging the question. You assume because we are saved then God would not let us fall away. But this does nothing to address the very real possibility of turning away and resisting his grace. Falling away does not mean we were never his it means we rejected him.
It seems to be a paradox where it’s both and something the ancient world understood, while the West we do not. We want answers and assurances.
Excellent, PJC! As always! Thank you. Just ordered your book off Amazon.
As a non-Calvinist Baptist working out my own understandings of the issue, you really had me agreeing with you all the way through until you said "sacraments," there at the end. Yes, the Bible says pretty clearly that you can cast off your saving faith, and it also says pretty clearly that anyone who keeps their faith intact has iron-clad assurance, but the Bible says 0 about that assurance being based in any part on regularly receiving sacraments. It is faith alone. We can say that faith is our "part" of the salvation process only because it is not a work or an action by which we receive credit. The Bible uses "faith" and "works" in contra-distinction. However, if keeping the faith, and thus salvation, requires any works (which sacraments blatantly are), then the sacraments are what ensure salvation. It is not God ensuring our salvation by giving us the faith we need to assent in trust, but us ensuring our salvation by maintaining our faith through pious activity.
Lutherans baptize comatose family members if there's any evidence they are believers and wanted to be baptized eventually. Lutherans baptize the quadriplegic. And Lutherans baptize babies. I never seen no baby do no work.
If we define "works" as "anything physical that ever occurs", of course the sacraments are works. But by this definition, the death and resurrection of Christ is a work, and we know we are saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. So the definition of "work" in this context must be "anything physical of man's doing" (as opposed to God's doing). Your argument then rests on a presupposition that the sacraments (baptism and communion) are works of man. The orthodox Lutheran understanding is that these are absolutely not works of man, but works of God. If a dirty dish is washed clean, it is not the dish which worked itself clean, but the washer of the dish who did the work. So it is in baptism, where it is not the water which purifies, but the "washing of the water with the Word" (Eph 5:26). Further, we know God does use physical things to accomplish His will. We are physical bodies, and will be reunited with our physical bodies in the last day. We place our trust in the physical blood of Jesus on a physical cross at a precise time and location in history, and His physical resurrection. The sick woman who touched Jesus' garment in Luke 8 was made well by faith, at the moment she touched Jesus' physical robe. A few seconds before she touched His robe, she had faith that once she touched His robe, she would be healed. But she was not healed until physically touching his physical robe. The sacraments of baptism and communion were instituted by Christ Himself and are not ours to do away with.
If the Bible said "pat yourself on top of your head five times and you will be saved" we would all take it at face value. But when St Paul says in Acts 22:16, "Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins", we say we don't need baptism to wash away our sins. And when St Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that "baptism now saves you", we say no it doesn't. And when Christ Himself says in Matthew 26 that "This [the wine] is the blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins", we say it's not actually His blood and it doesn't actually work forgiveness of sins. Faith alone saves, and we must have faith that His Word and the blessed sacraments will deliver what He has promised!
I appreciate your efforts and work. Thanks. I've used
some of your ideas and scriptural references on other channels.
I wish you well in life.
Thank you so much! I've struggled with the book of Rev where it says we can be taken out of the Book of Life and knew in my heart we can stop believing.
Revelation says he will not blot us out of the book of life. Will not is the opposite of will. Duh!
@@gregorylatta8159 then you haven't read the Book of Rev, not only does it come with a promise, but says if you add or take away from "this book" your name will be blotted out from the Book of Life. BTW, never remembered Jesus saying "duh" to a believer so maybe change your funky attitude foolish one (He did call people fools so, I can say that). Have a great day
@@Shellyspurr Actually the original Greek says tree of life.
@@gregorylatta8159 Gen 21:27 "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life." Greek will be different than English for sure, but just about every English Bible says book. Both are wood literally so, I can accept tree haha. This is interesting tho, id like to know more because the book of Gen says tree of life so, I would like to know more about how they're similar. Thank you for this incite
@@Shellyspurr The Lambs book of life is usually thought of as the list that was made before the foundation of the world of those predestined for salvation. There is much debate within Christianity about this and many issues such as OSAS and many many others. All I can say is no matter what anyone thinks I am going to trust Jesus alone for my salvation and I suggest others do the same.
I'm a new sub. I really like your content and am currently attending a WELS Lutheran church here in Wisconsin. I love it there.
How do you reconcile these passages with the passages that teach eternal security and perseverance, such as; John 6:37-39, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:28-31?
Christopher Mount I’m guessing he doesn’t.
Let’s flip the around. How do you reconcile those texts you posted with the ones he pointed out within taking the hypothetical but not possible view or being externally connected to the church without true faith?
@@JonathanGrandt He reconciles them the way Lutheran doctors always have.
bookofconcord.org/sd-election?setSidebar=min#para68
bookofconcord.org/sd-election.php#para12
bookofconcord.org/exhortation.php
Let's face it, the Bible contradicts itself a lot. That's why we need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church. See 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16, and Acts 8:31.
Let's face it the Bible contradicts itself all over the place. That's why we need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church.
So far this is one of the best explanations I've ever heard. God bless you and thanks for sharing
But how do we know if we've lost our salvation?? What categorize wilful sin? Are we talking about someone who struggle consistently but feels convicted of sin or someone who doesn't care and reject Christ completely after experiencing difficult situations? Are we talking about someone who walks away from community because of church hurt or abuse but ends up coming back because they feel called to repentance? This is a very confusing and terrifying, could you expend on the characteristics of those who did?
If you've lost it completely, you wont even care about that subject. But it is also a matter of degree. Being in sin will lead to doubt your salvation. As John's first epistle says, in all the verses with the phrase "this is how we know", faith in obedience brings assurance.
Yes, I agree. They can walk away, cease having believing loyalty and love toward God.
Very well explained…I used to believe we can’t loose it but based on your explanation with the scriptures…It’s clear
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."
If believing in Jesus grants you everlasting life, you can never stop having it. Otherwise it's incoherent.
It is in the moment you believe that you are passed from death unto life.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24
So is the Holy Spirit a leaking seal till the day of redemption? A new heart of flesh and a new spirit isn't enough to keep someone saved? God can't sovereignly keep someone in the faith ?
@@tomtemple69I don't understand God to force someone to disbelieve or believe in Him. Salvation requires a person's free will and/or volition. The Lord's love is made apparent in that He allows His creation to be able of themselves to serve and obey Him consciously and not involuntarily in a deterministic or fatalistic sense.
@@tomtemple69"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." Matthew 11:12
A particular pious bishop named Theophan importantly clarified;
"The fact that the Kingdom of God is "taken by force" presupposes personal effort."
A person may have initially or for a long period of time sought it only to then eventually have forsaken it. At one point a person may of their own volition work out their salvation, potentially through particular decisions or judgements of such a person they may fall from the faith or cease to work out their salvation.
@@anthonyp6055 "I don't understand God to force someone to disbelieve or believe in Him. Salvation requires a person's free will and/or volition. The Lord's love is made apparent in that He allows His creation to be able of themselves to serve and obey Him consciously and not involuntarily in a deterministic or fatalistic sense."
yeah, that's your opinion
the Bible says otherwise
also, "force" would imply God doesn't have total and complete control over our existence and doesn't uphold our existence moment by moment
Can someone who falls away be restored? Or upon falling, are they permanently doomed?
"Peter, the formidable rock, falling into great sin and experienced in struggle, did not despair and did not lose the presence of the Spirit, rather he shed bitter tears from a warm heart and, seeing that, the devil fled from him as though burned by fire." - St. Seraphim Of Sarov
Christ created us with free will, He even allows us to fall into sin in order for us to remain humble and contrite and not become proud as the demons/devils who themselves don't eat food nor sleep, have sexual relations and have knowledge of the Scriptures. Peter denied the Lord three times and supported false doctrine(Judaizing) yet the Lord accepted his repentance and self-correction. God bless!
@@anthonyp6055 I understand your point (and agree full heartedly)...but how do we reconcile that with the Hebrews passage that says "it's impossible to renew the repentant back to repentance"?
I know I'll find the answer eventually...I just need to search.
Thank you for an honest treatment of the idea! Finally! My very real dilemma is thus: I see that "there remains no repentance" in Hebrews 6:4-6, but I also see that this passage comes after 3 exhortations of "today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts." If it is my desire to return to Him, is it possible I only *thought* I fell away, or is it possible I'm being deceived into thinking I merely want to repent?
Regardless- thank you for handling this idea in a way that finally feels like someone is being honest with the text and not playing semantic games.
Peace. Do you agree with this video?
Watch Chuck Missler Eternal Security. It will clear up everything
If you even have the desire to repent and recognize you need to, Hebrews 6 is not speaking to you
Thanks Pastor for walking the razors edge of the Word of God. I stuggled with this doctrine as God brought me out of Calvinism by His word alone. God's peace be with you.
THIS IS THE ONE YOU NEED ua-cam.com/video/i3ouCJ5hvBo/v-deo.html
Still Lutheran? :)
@@JoojieXD yes indeed
What about a saved person who genuinely loves and knows Christ but falls into a dry season for a period of time and becomes more apathetic about sin for a period of time.. but then comes back to repentance a while later. Is it too late for them?
A born again person can reject his faith.. God doesn't force his will on anyone.. but if your a person who genuinely follow God I don't think hel let you fall away. Hel bring a person back no matter how far he's gone.. but again his willingness wil matter.
If a person will fall away from faith to the point God will cut away him, he will never come back to faith - he is doomed as letter of hebrews undeniably stayed.
What if a person living in unrepentant sin, maintains their faith, because they don't believe what their doing is a sin?
That would be calling God a liar and not maintaining faith/trust in God, His Word and Work.
We call it a seared conscience, the remedy is the hammer of God, and private honest confession and Absolution.
I am a sinner, will always be a sinner. My salvation was assured before I was born, thank-you Father Amen.
Yeah, lucky you. What about someone that was not 'chosen' by God?
Calvinism, the religion of narcissists.
We are all chosen, we all will have eternal life. Matthew 18#12-14. Praise God Almighty, Amen.
@@herberttaylor466 This is bizarre. Are you saying all humans are saved? or all the Christians are chosen and have eternal life?
@@Brian_L_A All Humans without Exception, its so simple its hard to believe. Faith is what is needed in God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit. AMEN
@@herberttaylor466 Give my regards to Mao Zedong, responsible for about 45 million deaths. I am sure he was praising Jesus as untold millions were tortured to death under Mao's command.
It is so important for someone professing Christ's saving work in his or her life, and in wedding that person to the Church, that that believer perseveres to the end, using the power that God gives him or her, and recognizing that God Himself is striving to keep that believer in the fold and family of believers. Always END WELL, with final repentance and humility!
Is salvation through faith alone or is something additional required ?
Even Nicodemus understood that a person could not enter again into their mother’s womb so as to be born a second time. But in this is something essential to recognize… just as a person cannot enter back into the womb in order to be reborn, so a person cannot become unborn. A person cannot become unborn of the Spirit and work to undo the work of God. For what God has joined together let no man tear apart. In Him we have become joined in union with God. We have been born of God. We have been made a new creation.
Thank you for making your videos, especially this one. I have been branching out and learning about other Christian traditions, being raised in reformed, modern churches. I enjoy your approach to these topics, as it is always biblical, easy to understand, and truthful.
I struggled with this for years and now I’m Lutheran. There’s just no other way to read these texts.
This is one of the best descriptions of how salvation works that I've come across in years of research. It really bothers me that I can't be a Lutheran for one reason: women pastors.
I’m not Lutheran but the theology seems so biblically balanced.
I grew up Lutheran and am excited to have found your channel. Concerning this issue, could you give your understanding how someone gets "saved" or receives salvation in the first place? Just to lay some foundation before we go to the Lutheran understanding of losing it or not.
You're not the first person who has asked this, so I will try and make it a priority to answer this in another video.
cool, And could you also tell me what type of Lutheran you are? I grew up in the ELCA church and I know there are different types. That might help with some understanding as well.
I am a pastor in the AALC. We are quite small. We were founded by the old ALC by churches who did not want to join the merger that became the ELCA, because we had some concern regarding their views on Scripture.
Also, you may find this video on the order of salvation helpful: ua-cam.com/video/Ro3W2k26jZQ/v-deo.html
I watched this video and also looked up the AALC. I would say I find your beliefs more Biblical than what I have experienced with the ELCA. I don't believe all that you are saying and find it all a bit "religious". By that I mean traditions of man more than a relationship with God Himself. It seems that from your video I would agree on the basics of how one gets saved. I certainly don't hold to any teaching that says infants should be baptized or that it accomplishes anything in terms of that child's salvation. Salvation is a choice that we make to accept what Jesus did for us on the cross. A baby can't do that and the parents can't do that for them. However, I'll watch some more and listen to what you have to say. Maybe you can move from water baptism to the baptism of the Holy Spirit as it was in Acts. You do know that is still available to us today, right?!
Romans 10:9-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Hi Jordan, though I do not agree with all your viewpoints in other video's this video is spot on. Good and understandable teaching.
Peace.
Why do you agree with this?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 I agree because the Bible tells us so clearly we can lose our faith. The parable of the sower is clear on this. Even Paul says I fought the good fight and kept the faith. Why should he say such a thing if he couldn't lose his faith in t he first place?
@@Bijbelstudies, peace brother. That's a good point.
So if it's true and we can lose it, what are we supposed to do? How do we have assurance that God won't let us do that, and that he will help us endure to the end?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 God will HELP us to endure with His grace but He will not FORCE us to endure. All it takes is one mortal sin and the state of grace is forfeited. The state of grace can be re-gained by sincere repentance and a good Confession.
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 he will help us endure if we are willing.. but if your deceived and want to follow in deception then even God can't obstruct your willingness. Salvation came to us through Jesus, he only opened our eyes but it's because we were willing . He won't forcefully open anyone's eyes nor force to keep them open to him.. you have full choice to close your eyes or keep them open. If I'm willing to keep them open then he will keep it open for us.. he will sustain us..
This is a question frought with all kinds of semantic difficulties. What exactly IS a Christian? Who meets the standards of being a "genuine" Christian? Which ones are regenerate? What does it even mean to "lose" faith or salvation? In some sense, it either continues, or you never had it.
You can't tell your wife, "You know, honey, I had a never-ending love for you, but then I just quit."
That is a very good point, Hans. The relationship (personal relationship with Jesus, no?) with Jesus is often likened to a marriage, with Jesus being the groom and our souls being the bride. The book of Revelation speaks of the Church as the mystical body of Christ. Some Catholic hymns speak of Jesus, "the bridegroom of my soul". A nun is considered to be a bride of Christ.
In a marriage the partners need to have faith in each other, have hope that the marriage will work, and they must do good works for each other. We should understand that faith without works is dead but we should REALLY understand that love without good works is the phonyest kind of love imaginable. Having faith in each other and that's all that is needed? No.....
If unsaved humans can keep loving someone for their whole life, how much easier is it for one with the Spirit to love God even longer?
To Jordan Cooper And Other Commenters Of This Video: The expression "Once saved always saved," is a logo that asserts only subjective justification (The human subjection to what Christ did for us). What the "Once saved" logo seems to exclude is what Christ has already done for us objectively. What Christ did for us, out of His love for us, is He died on the cross and shed His blood, and he bore our sins and took the judgement for our sins, and He has fully cleansed us from our sins, and Christ rose from the dead and conquered death for us, all by His own merit. Christ accomplished, one time, and for all, salvation and eternal peace
(Peace with God); he saved us. We need only to subject to Christ and receive that the Father has forgiven us through the work of Christ, and receive, from Christ His righteousness and deification imputed to us from Him.
The answer to the question that asks "Can a true believer fall away from the faith?," is in the Bible. We can begin with 1 John 3: 6, which says "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him neither known him (KJV)." This means that the believer's life is not characterized by sin, but is subject to the character and will of God, and not the will of man's sinfulness. Some of the ways man sins can be seen in 1 Corinthians 6: 6-12. As believers in Christ, we, by faith, accept that Christ died on the cross for our sins, and He arose from the dead, and by faith we turn (Repent) from our sins, and by the power of the Holy Ghost, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us from Christ himself, and Christ has fully cleansed and deified us. As believers, we are also dealing with the remaining presence of our sinful will, where we will, either knowingly or unknowingly, to walk out of fellowship with God, which is why we must return to fellowship with the Lord our God through confession to Him by faith and believing by faith that Christ took our judgement for us. A true believer in Christ, cannot remain out of fellowship with God nor out of fellowship with God's eternal peace, but a true believer's conscience of the Scriptures will be a constant reminder to them of their sin, by the true message of the Scriptures, and by the reminder of what the Scriptures proclaim, and the true believer cannot continue to sin and be out of fellowship with God - See Matthew 13: 8, about the seed that fell into good soil. Matthew 13: 3-7 referrs to those who hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and allow the seed to be planted, only to turn from the message of Christ, and they continue to side in with their own will, and are not in fellowship with God's will.
This is a great explanation of the text. First Get the book, it’s excellent. I love my evangelical brothers and sisters in Christ, but like Dr Cooper I struggled with this issue. With COVID-19 and everything else I can say as a matter of fact my faith is weaker than it was months ago. I still repent and reach out as I need God so much more than I can comprehend. The fact people can backslide to apostasy is real, not through works, but through a lack of faith. When evangelicals say that there are only maybe a few lines in the Bible that indicate you might lose your faith, and eternal security is all over the place, I just could not see that as I read the whole new testament. I found it to be the opposite. I also believe the Lutheran position described here provides the most security for people as I especially dislike how the “fake Christian” argument goes as it either makes people insecure in their faith, or requires them to look at themselves instead of Christ for faith. Again I love my Christian brothers dearly whom disagree with this, peace and In Christ we all must be in this broken world
If this video is true, then what are we as Christians supposed to do?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 late late response here. You want to know what to do? Look to Christ. Pray for wisdom and discernment so that all of us Christian’s can be United. Just the fact that you’re asking this question means you want to know. Pray about it. Ask for the gifts that you know God is offering you and mean it (with faith) and it’s a done deal. And then use it. I believe from your one comment you are saved but you’re afraid of backsliding. Stay in the word and talk to God and ask for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as he offered it to us! Another gift! Take it. He love you and wants you and all Christians to have the gift of pointing people to Christ in one way or another. You have faith brother? Take it. Never worry and never live in fear. God is with you.
I was an apostate before coming back to Chirst. Do I have salvation if I have faith now?
You could be saved. God allows, and in fact encourages, moral U-turns.
Same here im now wondering the same
Yes, God loves a repentant sinner. Look to Christ for your faith. You don't find it through introspection. Get baptized if you haven't been, partake of the Lord's supper, worship him in communion of the saints, study his word and pray to him. Don't spend a bunch of time interrogating your heart, spend your energy seeking to serve your King. Turn that over and over in your mind. Godspeed! Welcome back!
@@guyroszel7584 I didn't realize I had fallen I want the HOLY GHOST and not like this
I was attacked and got into Spiritual sifted I want to come back and Satan know I don't belong .He was hitting me hard and I didn't understand. I didn't even read and study. Need to be restored and healed. I had the HOLY GHOST and don't remember what happened and got into flesh lies. The attack s mess my nerves
@christsavesreadromans1096 Already did, man what a grear sacrament.
They are talking about animal sacrifice they was trying to go back to animal sacrifice and Paul was telling in Jesus Christ his only sacrifice will save you
??????
What ? What ? What ?
Don't you know that Hebrews is written to all Christians?
Read Chapter 1:1, 2
Read Chapter 2:3, 4
Read Chapter 12:22-25
GOD has spoken to US by His SON in fulfillment of
Deuteronomy 18:15-19 / Acts 2:33
If you read John's Gospel
(eg 14:23, 24) you will find the Lord reiterating this theme and it's found in Luke also (Luke 10:16)
But as to "walking away from grace",
That is made abundantly clear in Hebrews 3:12.
Indeed Hebrews 3:14 uses the perfect tense to say we are become (Riight now)
PARTAKERS OF CHRIST,
And yet the inspired author uses the conditional clause in tandem with his statement:
"IF hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end"
This is no different to the warning the Lord gave us:
"He that endures to the end shall be saved"
I just downloaded your book from Amazon.. :)
>There aren't any cliffs in kansas
>Highway 83 between lake scott and monument rocks national park: Am I a joke to you?
Thanks for sharing. Certainly thought provoking.
I'd like to make a slightly different point which is that the conditional Scripture passages you refer to don't imply that one has the capacity to fall away from faith by the free exercise of our will. They're merely observations that one will only be saved if one remains in the faith. Luther made the point that our will isn't free to choose either to believe or disbelieve and that it's like a beast of burden between two riders (God and Satan). If God rides us we go where God wills and if Satan rides us we go where Satan wills, and nor says Luther, can we choose who will ride us because it is the riders themselves who contend with each other as to who will take possession of us. Ultimately of course God is in control and therefore whether we're saved or damned has already been predetermined. So if people fall from the faith and are damned that is due to predestination not due to human free will. So whilst I agree that "once saved always saved" isn't Biblical, I don't agree with the Lutheran teaching that the act of falling away isn't predetermined by God. My conviction is that Luther was correct and the Formula of Concord wrong on this.
+Edward -- I can't fully tell from your post if you're in the Lutheran camp or not (my impression is that you are not but if you are my apology) but you might want to check out this article.
*_"Why Lutheran Predestination Isn't Calvinist Predestination"_* by *Mathew Block* from _First Things_
www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/10/why-lutheran-predestination-isnt-calvinist-predestination
resurrectionjose I've previously read Mathew Block’s article and commented on it in the comments below it. But briefly I don't agree with his argument that Luther didn't endorse predestination to hell. There's nothing in Luther’s commentary on Genesis that actually supports this. It's plain that we can't know whether we're saved (and therefore conclude we're predestined to be saved) except through our faith in Christ since He is the only access to God that we have, but this doesn't rule out predestination to hell which Luther most certainly defends in The Bondage of the Will, and which he supports when he says in his Genesis commentary “I have written that everything is absolute and unavoidable”.
Also there's a misunderstanding in Lutheran circles that Luther was opposed to reason and logic particularly with reference to predestination and that he was in agreement with the Formula of Concord on this. However this is completely mistaken. Luther only opposed reason when it sought to make a value judgement on the truthfulness of Scripture, however he defended to the utmost the use of reason when arguing from Scriptural premises. Therefore we find him making the following summary of his position in The Bondage of the Will which confirms he held predestination to both heaven and hell:
“For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and predestines all things, that he can neither be mistaken in his foreknowledge nor hindered in his predestination, and that nothing takes place but as he wills it (as reason itself is forced to admit), then on the testimony of reason itself there can't be any free choice in man or angel or any creature”. (page 293, Luther's Works, Vol 33)
By the way in my eyes I’m a Lutheran since I agree with Luther and support the teachings of the Book of Concord that were in existence during Luther's lifetime. However since Lutheranism since 1580 has been defined by acceptance of the Formula of Concord’s teaching on predestination, which I hold is in error (and which Luther wouldn't have agreed with), I don't refer to myself as a Lutheran.
+Edward -- Luckily while coming back here and re-reading the entirety of your post after digging around one of my external hard drives (it's normally hooked up to my laptop computer) for the titles of one or two books as well as looking up some stuff online, I noticed that I might have been a bit hasty or simply misread the second paragraph in your previous post. (Further below I'm going ahead and mention what I presumed at first and cite the title and accompanying link to Amazon.) The one thing I should have done but didn't bother to do because it might have been way too time-consuming is looking for a quotation in some book I have on former fundamentalist Christians ("Leaving The Fold..." by Edward Babinski) whereby the author either insinuates that Luther held to "double predestination" or directly quotes him by actually citing from one of his works. What I recall is something about the *_"acme of faith"_* and will probably look it up another time during the upcoming morning or afternoon. I also don't want to be rummaging around one of my bookshelves in another part of the house and near a family member who is sound asleep. :)
All that being said, I think you're most probably right about Luther holding to *and* perhaps early on teaching "double predestination" while Lutheranism in general and many Lutherans in particular say otherwise. That article by Mathew Block is a case in point. I never bothered to read the comments section of his article which ironically enough is something I normally do since comments/posts by readers tend to be more interesting and enlightening than the article(s) themselves. I spotted your comment but won't be elaborating on it here. I will end with the following and touch upon what you said in the second paragraph.
*_"Also there's a misunderstanding in Lutheran circles that Luther was opposed to reason and logic..."_* Even though I didn't go any further and cite the rest of what you said, on the whole you are correct. I had to also look around one of my other folders (simply entitled "Lutheranism") where I have 80+ eBooks and journal articles specifically on Martin Luther and Lutheranism. I'll assume you're familiar with the following book that I cited further below. I also took the liberty of citing the Baptist minister and theologian, Roger E. Olson, who had written a blog article showcasing that Luther did indeed hold to "double predestination."
Lastly, even if Luther never uttered the same type of statements he did in earlier years I believe the usual criticisms against Calvinism (re: TULIP) or even a modified form of it (e.g., emphasis on 'T' and 'P' while giving short shrift to 'U', 'L', and 'I') can just as well be leveled at him. "Double predestination" no matter how it's sliced boils down to one group being chosen for eternal life (i.e., the Elect) and another group predestined to eternal perdition (i.e., the non-Elect). Mr. Olson in a few of his books on Arminianism (that includes one or two arguing *against* Calvinism) in my view does a splendid job of showing up a number of faulty lines of theological reasoning within Calvinist thought. About the one area that I think he *might* be waffling on is Romans 9 when he more or less quotes John Wesley: *_"It cannot mean, whatever it meant besides, that the God of truth is a liar....Let it mean what it will. It cannot mean that the Judge of all the world is unjust."_* Sounds great at first glance and I reckon eases one's troubled conscience as well as a good deal of cognitive dissonance regarding some "horrible decree" and God's love, but it seems to avoid the text itself and the necessary exegetical work needed in order to determine what that part of Romans (or more to the point chapters 9-11) means and not what we wish it to mean for the sake of squaring things away with some cherished or deeply held doctrine.
(I'm trying to find a dissertation online that I have on hand that has since been published in a prestigious monograph series, 'Library of New Testament Studies', and will presume it's either not freely available anymore or I just haven't looked well enough. For the heck of it I will cite the title way at the end and attempt to find it another time. It part one of a trilogy on the entirety of Romans 9, and from an Arminian persuasion.)
*_"The Devil's Whore. Reason and Philosophy in the Lutheran Tradition"_* (2011) edited by *Jennifer H. Dragseth*
www.amazon.com/Devils-Whore-Philosophy-Lutheran-Tradition/dp/0800698509/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1517473976&sr=8-2&keywords=%27%27The+Devil%27s+Whore.+Reason+and+Philosophy+in+the+Lutheran+Tradition%27%27
*_"Luther and 'Double Predestination'"_* by *Roger E. Olson*
www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/04/luther-and-double-predestination/
*_"Arminian Principles for Interpreting Romans 9."_*
wesleyanarminian.wordpress.com/category/romans-9/
Brian J. Abasciano *_"Paul’s Use of the Old Testament in Romans 9.1-9. An Intertextual & Theological Exegesis"_* [LNTS] (2004)
resurrectionjose I clicked on your link to the article "Arminian Principles for Interpreting Romans 9" but I don't agree with the argument presented. Romans 9 is about individual predestination. One has to indulge in contorted arguments to arrive at the conclusion that Paul isn't discussing divine predestination to heaven and hell.
Luther in "The Bondage of the Will", before presenting Scriptural proof for predestination, argues from the premise that God is omnipotent and omniscient and that God's foreknowledge can't be invalidated, that everything is predestined by God to happen. He argues that God's foreknowledge imposes necessity on everything happening exactly as He has foreknown it will, which means there's no human free will to do anything different. Luther's main emphasis was of course to refute free will in reply to Erasmus but in doing so he argued, totally convincingly, that everything is predestined by God to happen which he then proved from Scripture, in particular Romans 9.
In addressing the point that God can't do anything which would seem to us to be unloving and unjust Luther makes the argument that we shouldn't judge God as if He was human as God's justice is above our understanding, and we'll only understand it in the next life when we see that He's perfectly just. (pages 289-293, Luther's Works, Vol 33).
I’m currently in a heated conversation about this on a social media app today. Glad I have this as a resource
Thank you for the upload I recently joined a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church in the area I live and I wanted to understand the Lutheran view. Grace and peace to all in Christ. ☺
As a child was taught that Hebrews 'falling aside' was failure to inherit all that has been allocated. Rich young ruler had the same problem. Moses failed to enter the physical promised land but was nevertheless redeemed.
I agree with you on this subject and that was how I was taught on the subject, and it's also what see in the scriptures on the subject. And I see scripture as wise to be warning Christians to be careful to remain in the faith. There's no reason why they can't lose their salvation through being overly confident of their standing with God, as the Pharisees of Jesus' time did! They need to be as a good watchman, Jesus said - living as though always waiting confidently (through always remembering to be watchful and careful) for Jesus' coming!
If this video is true, then what are we supposed to do?
What do you mean? As regards to oneself - or as regards to those who fail to understand this subject correctly? Hebrews 7 - I think it is - explains how obedience is required - repentance is necessary. Exactly what the people of Israel - the majority refused to do. And repaed thei rjust reward as a result.
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298
@@debbystevens7494, peace sister.
I'm asking that if this video is true and a Christian can Spirit filled Christian can forfeit Salvation, then what are we as Christians supposed to do? Where do we find our assurance?
I'm sure you say obedience if necessary, not to negate Salvation by grace through faith alone right?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 What are we supposed to do? We are supposed to avoid all mortal sin. If we have the misfortune to commit a mortal sin God will forgive us if we have sincere repentance and if we go to Confession.
But if faith is a gift from God, and faith is required did God take my faith away?
in this connection, Scripture can be properly and truly "boiled down" to 3 warnings, and 1 admonition, as follows: 1. there is the warning to the atheist/agnostic, not to be a "fool", via the rejectioin of God's reality; 2, there is the warning to those involved in false, God-rejected religions (); 3. there is the warning, against/to those who are among God's people, and who are yet NOT truly converted; these ones will be revealed as such, either here (1 John 2:19/Heb. 3:12), or hereafter (Matt. 7:19-21)..beyond these warnings 4. , there IS the admonition to God's people, to "make their calling/election sure", via the confirmation/reality of an "indwelling Christ" (Gal. 4:19; 2 Cor. 13:5); 5. is there, yet a group of "warnings" to God's people, that they can be "saved" today, and "lost" tommorrow? That the Son might NOT "live in their house forever"? That the "younger WILL serve the older"? That their "old man" will yet destroy, the "new man"? That "eternal life" has a "shelf-life" dependant upon the whim, of WEAK SINNERS, such as ourselves? That our "adoption" is "subject to cancellation" depending upon our conduct? Thjat Christ's saving work, was not only NOT "finished" (John 19:28-30), but needs to be "completed" by us?? That God's "love" (??), is yet STILL keeping a "record, of (our) wrongs", which is NOT to be "cleared" in this life?Absolutely not! Thus, "loss..." doctrine can never build a solid soterioloigy; their false anthropology/theolgy (i.e. that the Almighty God "bows" to the wills of His inful creatures!), simply cannot bear the weight, of a Biblical doctrine, re salvation.....I thank God, for many things,,,,,two of them, are that I did NOT follow my spiritually dead fathers Lutheran faith; yet, neither did I embrace my mothers' RC religion...how I thank God, for the post-Lutheran Reformers, who were enabled by God, to "tie these loose ends", left by such as Luther/Melancthon!!
What if some people fall away or are apostate and later return to Christ in genuine faith and repentance? I've heard very few of you guys expound on this!
The matter of Hymenaeus and Alexander puzzles me. The purpose of handing them over to Satan is that they might learn something (in their case, not to blaspheme). Why seek to teach someone who is gone for good to repent unless shipwreck is not quite as final as it sounds?
You forgot to mention the distinction between elect believers and non elect believers. Can the elect lose their salvation?
@Sterling Crowne Are you speaking for Lutherans? If so I have some follow up queations.
@Sterling Crowne ok nevermind then
I'm a Lutheran and I'll attempt to answer your question. Key word being "attempt" lol. Anyways, Lutherans do hold to the belief of there being a certain group of people who are the elect, and these elect cannot fall finally away from the faith and end up in hell. While at the same time we hold to the idea that people can be true Christians and fall away from the faith as stated in this video. This is definitely confusing and paradoxical, but we believe these things because we think Scripture teaches them. God has chosen not to tie up the loose ends, so to speak. Every Christian comes to a point in which they ask the question "Why are some saved and not others?" Calvinists, Arminians, and Lutherans all have different answers to this. Calvinists say people are saved or damned by God's sovereign choice/work. Arminians traditionally say people are saved or damned by man's choice/work. Lutherans will say that people are saved by God's work alone, or are damned by man's choice alone. In other words, anyone who ends up in heaven can only say that it is by the grace of God alone that they were saved, and anyone who ends up in hell has no one to blame but him or herself for rejecting God's gracious gift of eternal life.
Check out this episode of Pastor Cooper's podcast, which I think will answer a lot of your questions on the doctrine of election: justandsinner.libsyn.com/two-kinds-of-election
Also, for an official explanation from the Lutheran Confessions, please refer to this link which is a reading from the Formula of Concord regarding election: www.bookofconcord.org/sd-election.php
Sterling Crowne Actually the entire counsel of scripture teaches it. Just as the verses that speak of election are true, the other verses that speak of falling away from the faith are also true. Warnings against falling away are, as far as my memory serves me, in EVERY New Testament book. No matter who each book is addressed to. It is simply the plainest understanding of the verses to understand them to be a warning to keep the faith.
I would also like to stress that Lutheran preaching does not delve into the question of “Am I really elect?” Since we believe as scripture teaches that Christ died for all human beings, and that God desires all to be saved, we teach that if someone is a believing Christian who is continuing in the faith, they have absolutely no reason to believe they are not elect. It is important to understand that Lutherans hold to the scriptural teaching of single predestination. This means God elects people to salvation, but does not actually elect people to eternal damnation. Therefore, election is meant to solely be a doctrine of comfort. If someone is a repentant believer in Jesus Christ, they can surely believe that he died for them.
“On the other hand, they recall the unchangeable, divine promise that no one of them can be Lost, as St. Paul says “the lord knows those who are His” and those whom He foreknown He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son” Saint Augustine- The city of God book XVIII chapter 51
If salvation is probationary, then how can it be salvation? Being born again is about being born into God’s family. Does God abandon his children?
No, we abandon him however. Calvin's theology came from augustine, who invented predestination as a desperate response to pelagius in their letter correspondence. Augustin spent 9 years with the manichaens, its no wonder he had such repugnant doctrine.
Braden Glass sorry, God invented predestination. Have you read his book?
@@godslittleman5451 I have. You should spend more time on it instead of the institutes on religion.
Braden Glass if you had, you would have come across the word, “predestined many times.” It’s not goin anywhere just cause you don’t like it.
@@godslittleman5451 predestination is certainly there, its just not what reformed say it is. See cooper's video debunking the limited atonement btw
"regret your sins to remain saved" is not scriptural, paul affirmed that the unrepentant people who were doing things i can't even mention at corinth were still saved. 1 corinthians 5:5
persevering to the end to be saved makes salvation a "maybe in the future" instead "yes i'm saved in the present moment" with the latter being scriptural. the former is a works based salvation that shifts the focus to the sinner and not the saviour.
christ cannot be crucified multiple times and you cannot be born of the spirit more than once so a moment of questioning your faith and then believing again doesn't mean you lost your salvation.
When Arminians affirm that Christians can fall away, and when Calvinists deny it, it's often because they are agreed upon the assumption or presupposition that perseverance ultimately depends on the human being. But that's not the only possibility. It seems to me that Augustianism allows for the falling away from the faith not ultimately due to man's will/choices, but God's will and choices. That is, when God withholds or withdraws the gift of perseverance. I think that's a perfectly consistent and logical third option. Augustinians believe in the perseverance of All the *ELECT*, but not of All *SAINTS* [since the elect are a subset of the saints, unlike in Calvinism where they are coterminous].
The question then is, whether God is the kind of God who could or would do something like that. As a Calvinist myself, I could argue either way. On the one hand, I could argue that God's ability to withhold/withdraw the gift of perseverence is (or could be considered) a manifestation of God's Sovereignty that's even higher/stronger than the usual Calvinist position that holds to the "P" in TULIP. On the other hand, it would seem to me that most Evangelical Christians (including Calvinists, Arminians et al.). would not like to think of God as an "Indian Giver" (no ethnic slur intended). It would seem that God doesn't really love these people whom He has previously redeemed. Contrary to the Bible's teaching that God's covenant love is everlasting and that "He who did not spare His own Son, but gave Him up for us all; how shall He not also graciously/freely give us all things?" (Rom. 8:32). If God gave initial salvation, and perseverance is ultimately up to Him, then it's not the case that God graciously and freely gives believers all things if He withholds/withdraws the gift of perseverance from them.
While a minority of Calvinists believe God has no love for the non-elect, most Calvinists believe that God has some kind of love or common grace towards the non-elect. But given the Augustianian view, there's actually three (instead of two) groups of people. Those whom God 1. either don't love at all [e.g. in Hyper-Calvinism] or loves less because they aren't saved; 2. those whom God loves fully to such an extent that He grants them the ongoing gift of perseverance, and 3. the third group whom God "kinda sorta" fully loves redemptively, but yet doesn't REALLY and truly fully love, otherwise He would grant them perseverance. In which case, God would almost be schizophrenic in His attitude towards this third group. For that reason, I lean toward the standard Calvinistic view of the Perseverance of the Saints.
_"When Arminians affirm that Christians can fall away, and when Calvinists deny it, it's often because they are agreed upon the assumption or presupposition that perseverance ultimately depends on the human being."_
I strongly disagree with this line. Calvinists affirm that God is the perseverer, not man. Read Westminster Confession chapter 17 _Of the Perseverance of the Saints_ and see that the first two sections are all about what God does in salvation. When it finally gets to man in the third and final section, it is all about the ways that man screws up.
@@oracleoftroy Re-reading that sentence of mine, I realize that I too quickly wrote it and expressed what I meant to say incorrectly. I"m a Calvinist and I do agree with you that Calvinists believe God is the preserver, not man. In fact, sometimes the 5th point of Calvinism, "The Perseverance of the Saints", is sometimes called "The Preservation of the Saints" by Calvinists because ultimately God is the one who preserves the believer, rather than the believer being the ultimate cause of their perseverance. Because God empowers them and ensures that they will, inexorably, persevere. I agree with that.
What I actually meant to say in that incorrectly phrased statement is:
//When Arminians affirm that Christians can fall away, and when Calvinists deny it, it's often because they are agreed upon the assumption or presupposition that [falling away] ultimately depends on the human being. But that's not the only possibility. //
Since Calvinists believe that God has the power to cause true believers from falling away, it doesn't occur to them that true believers can fall away. But that's because they have the additional presupposition that God wouldn't allow/permit a true believer to fall away. Whereas Augustinians don't accept that assumption that God wouldn't allow/permit a true believer to fall away. Despite the fact that Augustinians also agree with Calvinists that God has the power to prevent a true believer from falling away [which Augustinians describe as the additional "gift of perseverance"].
@@oracleoftroy In addition to the correction that I made above. I have to say that Augustinians also [generally] believe that falling away is ultimately due to man's will. They usually deny double predestination, or any positive decree of damnation. However, some people, like myself, would argue that it's technically not true that falling away is ultimately due to the human will given Augustinianism. Since, in Augustinianism God could have given the gift of perseverance to any and all saints. Yet, God intentionally refuses to do that for some saints [for whatever inscrutable reasons He has]. In which case, logically speaking, folks like myself would argue that in Augustinianism falling away is ultimately due to God's will not man's. Though, Augustinians like to focus on human will as the cause, rather than God's will to protect God's honor.
What would be the FINAL step to "walk away from grace" all together? Simply becoming an atheist or something before that, such as unrepentant sin until the hour of death?
Also would losing faith mean just no eternal life or also suffering eternally in Hell?
You have to distinguish between faith and grace. Not everyone that has faith in Christ is in the state of grace. The devil has faith (Luke 4:34) but no grace. The rich man, in the Lazarus/rich man parable, had faith in God and in his spiritual father Abraham, but no grace. Committing just one mortal sin kills the grace in our soul. The grace of God can be re-gained by a sincere repentance and Confession, but there are people who become so jaded and obstinate in their sins that they do lose their faith and refuse to repent or confess.
Suffering eternally in hell, because all souls must end up in either heaven of hell.
I guess no one is going to answer how there are many Christians who do return to faith and true repentance after falling away from Christ for years. Either they have not committed the sin of irrevocable apostasy or is there a possibility we're reading Hebrews 6:4-6 wrong?
I confess this whole debate mystifies me. Isn't it a question of loyalty? I can't possibly be good enough to earn God's love. I've earned destruction in concrete ways and nothing I can do will change that. I accept this as fact. Where does that leave me? I have to trust Him when He says I'm forgiven even as I can't understand why. And now I'm going to betray him again? If so He won't have to condemn me when I stand before Him. I'll do it myself.
Salvation is believing on Jesus for salvation. It's God's gift and He, through the Holy Spirit does the good works; our works don't matter.
If we truly believe, then we will obey Jesus.
"Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
Our works demonstrate the reality of our faith. They do matter. Without getting into the weeds, good works are what we are saved {for} (that's supposed to communicate italics).@@Anony584
Brother, the idea that the warning passages are one of the means by which we as God's children are made to persevere does not make the warning passages meaningless. Take a passage later on in the book of Acts for example: God promised Paul that he and everyone on the ship were going to be saved, that they would not perish. Nevertheless, Paul still warns everyone to remain on the ship, lest they perish. Paul's warning was the very means through which God fulfilled his promise to Paul that none of them would die in the storm.
God is the final decider.We petition him and wait.Whatever he comes up with,we need to accept that,We need to listen to him.He knows what is best for us.Dont force him by increasing the intensity and capacity of your brain power, because you will be sweating your guts out.WORKING....!!!!?????
@ I’m not sure how your reply is related to my initial comment.
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Phillipians 1:6 Can you please explain how this verse fits in as well?
Philippians 1:6 has to be interpreted in the light of Matthew 10:22 (Scripture interprets Scripture). If we persevere in grace, avoiding mortal sin, repenting of mortal sin if we have the misfortune to commit one, then yes, we will grow to perfection in Christ.
Yes this
Any Christian can fall away if they let the world take hold of their hearts. No one is immune from falling that is why it is vital we stay focused on Christ. 2Peter 3:17 “You therefore, beloved, know this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.” On e saved, always saved is Calvinistic.
Why would you walk away and decide to go to hell ?
Because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
Either because you enjoy sinning like lust,fornication, greed or you start questioning your salvation by not meeting certain standards and you feel your unworthy or not truly saved
Thanks, appreciate your "good works!"
I've heard from a Lutheran Pastor that God gives us the faith to believe......so does he take it away? And what do the words "eternal life" mean if not eternal?.....How many times can we "fall away" and then come back....does Scripture say? I'm not being sarcastic here, I just see so much evidence for OSAS compared to the verses that possibly say the opposite.....shouldn't we go with the preponderance of Scripture?
I think Scripture says that those who fall away can not return. At times it seems almost like there are 2 groups. 1 being Elect and 2 being those who come to Faith. Maybe the truly elect can not fall away but those whom follow Christ can. I’m probably wrong, but I fail to understand how it sometimes seems like there are different rules applied to “Elect” than other Christians.
Eternal life is the knowledge of Him, jn 17.3. It is participation in His uncreated life. When we stop obeying the gospel we become disconnected from grace and need to be renewed. David experienced this and thus said, God take not your holy Spirit from me. See you soon , iakobe.
God never takes away salvation (more accurately called "the state of grace" because no one knows for certain that he will be saved). Nor can any power in Heaven or on earth....except....we ourselves. The state of grace is a free gift, true, but like any gift it can be thrown away. We lose the state of grace by committing just one mortal sin, but God is merciful and will restore us to the state of grace if we sincerely repent and go to Confession.
Once-saved-always-saved is a license to sin and I think deep down everybody recognizes that.
What is meaning of the term 'grace' ? And what should 'sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory' really mean ?
Another subject, that I will say I simply disagree with your opinion.
We don’t need to go any further we don’t need to speak we don’t need to do anything at all all we know is your faith is not our faith make sure you have the correct faith
I’m trying to understand Protestant Christianity and It reminds me the Common Law (I’m an LLM): there are plenty of different ”churches” based on different literal interpretation of the scriptures. But in this way, Everyone can wake up and invent a new interpretation and therefore a new church. But what is the point in multiply churches? I think that this law/lawyer approach to Christ creates a lot of rules and tires but It does not answer to the existential questions of the people. Christians never had copies of the bible for the first 1.400 years... how could they be Christians without a book? I think that the main point of the Christianity is the event itself (god becomes a man); not the creation of another holy book. I prefer the catholic style because it’s more like civil law: one code to avoid endless discussion that make the message distant for the people. The first Christians were fisherman and sheppards, not intellectuals. Christ is love and love is simple. You don’t need to study to be in love; you just need to find someone. This is how humans works; this is how love work. The risk is too create a club for people interested in details. Sorry if I sounded offensive; it was not my intention. I just wanted to state my pony; I appreciate what you do; but maybe I’m too catholic for that...
In my own opinion, Catholicism resembles common law because of the development of doctrine, and the ongoing harmonization of multiple sources of authority (the consensus of bishops, the Patristic writings, the Scriptures, the councils, and private revelations such as Fatima) with the Papacy as the final court of appeal. Protestantism resembles civil law because of its insistence upon self-contained documents (compare the Book of Concord or the Westminster Confession to the Napoleonic Code, for instance).
Where can your book be purchased?
How does a Christian know they're regenerated? And doesn't scripture say that if one practices sin they are not of Christ?
This might interest you: ua-cam.com/video/msSA0tZy5Uo/v-deo.html
Protestants (not counting Lutherans and Anglicans) think we are regenerated when we have an emotiinal experience at a revival meeting.(Hallelujah, brethren, I'm saved!) Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans believe that this happens at the time of Baptism.
Which is correct? That emotional experience can be very powerful. But emotions change. Quite often Protestants are told that after their salvation experience that they won't even WANT to sin any more, and when subsequent temptations and sins occur they are confused----hey, I'm not supposed to even want to sin anymore but here am I sinning, am I really saved?
But if our faith is in our Baptism (and faith in Baptism is faith in Christ because Christ instituted Baptism) then that never changes. Yes, we can fall back into sin after our Baptism but we can always repent and confess, if we are truly sorry and have the intention of sinning no more.
Emotions can be good (or bad). But emotions are not salvation.
The problem is you don’t define the words in your Bible being saved is not a moment in time it’s the process from beginning to end!
Thank you. I came to Lutheranism from Reformed Presbyterian tradition. I was a bit surprised when I learned this is the Lutheran understanding, and at the same time I had wondered about these passages + the parable of the sower. I have told a friend who asked about it that, "It is possible to forfeit our faith, but our Lord doesn't make it EASY to, by His means of grace, His shepherding, His making us alive and giving us faith. I heard another POV on this described as God having a piece of chalk in one hand and an eraser in the other, at the Book of Life, and that's not what I see in Lutheran doctrine.
Does God promise to preserve us to the end, or not?
@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 The one who endures to the end shall be saved.
The parable of the sewer is not a good way to argue against OSAS - it's about whether the plant bears fruit or not, not whether there is, in fact, a plant.
@@jesussaves2642so we save ourselves?
I do think for sure that there is such a thing as false conversion in the case of the tares among the wheat, not to mention the fact that I lived in sin before I was converted truly, and after gaining a right understanding of the gospel I now know the truth and it has made me free.
Can wheat become tares ?
@@tomtemple69 God knows... the content of scripture seems to say yes even by the framework of the parables. Until the stalks all ripen, who knows how the heads will flower?
Also I am Orthodox now, I used to be lcms.
@@ThumbKnuckle youre Orthodox and you say you NOW know that truth? 🤔🤨
@@ThumbKnuckle that's not what I asked
can tares turn into wheat and vice versa? once a tare or wheat is planted, can they transform into the other?
@@tomtemple69 it's an analogy, not something that means exactly what it says, it's a hedge around the truth, not an assertion of what is precisely the case, in other parables the people can transform into the other kind, so it needs to be viewed through the lens of what has always been believed...
I am just recently seeing your videos come up. Any time an individual speaks truth I am thrilled to hear them continue but so many speak a partial truth its exhausting at times sifting through everything they say; and in those cases, I prefer to just let UA-cam know I am not interested in seeing the channel recommended further.
You say one can walk away from salvation and I must agree, but you also mention sin and faith?
Sin naturally comes between God and ourselves; as in the Adamic state we prefer to be our own god, our own authority?
I am curious then to know what faith in your view accomplishes; how, where it comes from, by what means?
I do not think faith can be over stated in a Christian world view, but I do think most … by far … who would say I am a Christian believer, lack a biblical understanding of this key?
From the title; Can a True Christian Fall Away from the Faith? I am disheartened, but you did say the langrage being used was to reach a broad viewership?
I like these videos but I think he missed the calvanist perspective here. The idea isnt that cooperation is not explicitly laid out in scripture alongside faith. Any calvanist worth their salt will agree all day long with that. The issue is this ever present idea that along with personal cooperation, God still simultaneously maintains control over his elect.
If you look to the trinity, does God being 3 persons work within our understanding? Or do we fundamentally believe it because is shown to be true in scripture? Calvanism works the same way.
If you don't wish to go with "apparent" faith, what qualifications ARE you willing to impose? In the Parable of the Sower, which you cite, ALL of the seed falling on tilled ground produces a crop. It is only on the periphery of the field--on the path, on the edge, in a weed-infested corner--where there is a possibility of fecundity failure. What then is different about the plants with weak, shallow, or temporary growth? Is their faith not QUALITATIVELY distinct? If indeed they ARE regenerate, isn't it in some lesser sense? They don't enjoy the same environment, the same protections, the same spiritual nourishment as the elect. They receive the regenerative gifts of the Spirit without receiving the providential gifts needed to maintain that spark of life. Sounds to me like their faith is at the very least deficient if not downright invalid.
Remember, living faith is more than mere intellectual assent; it is a rooted and grounded trust in the Sower; a mystical union with Christ that issues forth in good works (crops, in this case).
Any way you cut the mustard the parable of the seeds and the sower clearly shows that salvation can be lost
Man cannot take salvation away from us. God will not take salvation away from us. No power on earth or Heaven will take away our salvation. And it certainly is a free gift. But like all gifts we ourselves can throw it away. All it takes is one mortal sin.
Salvation (better described as the state of grace) can be regained if we have sincere repentance and make a good Confession.
What about this, Low-level Christians and High-Level Christians?
Isn't offensive to say to a Christian "You're not a real Christian if you backslid due to hardships", is feeling convicted of your sins not enough sign that you're a genuine Christian? And to say to atheists who are former Christians, "You were never a true Christian", isn't that offensive? If an atheist will say that He once felt convicted on sin, isn't that enough that they were "saved"? If an atheist will say he experienced "Slain by the Spirit" before, isn't that enough that he was "really saved"?
as a Reformed, who holds to "Perseverance", I am ther first to acknowledge that there are MANY texts, which APPEAR to teach "loss"....but I can say, with complete confidence, that to go "loss" on this question causes one to give an iron-clad certainty to passages that have NO such condition (i.e. the [supposed] "loss" passages); and to conversely "gut" those many passages that affirm the opposite; in other words, the "loss" passages can be much more easily be integrated into the doctrine of "Perseverance...", where full value can given to them, re Christian instruction; contrariwise, is the reverse; "loss" doctrine makes an absolute MESS of one's doctrine; it has NO mechanism, to extract any real value to the many crystal-clear passages that affirm/confirm the permanence of salvation; it shatters the whole thing, an leaves Christianity, as "just another religion" which teaches you, to "keep yourself saved", via your "good works"; thus, Wesley and all who follow in his train-wreck, basically deny the "Solas" of the Reformation....how I THANK GOD, that He is NOT as you "loss..." peddlars portray Him!! It is simply NOT possible, to reconcile Luther, in his truthful and lucid moments, with the "loss..." doctrine; thus you Lutherans are content to just "live with the tension", and (sadly!) affirm the "loss..." error....
Very good Dr. Cooper. Once saved always save theology drives me crazy. It just makes no sense.
We Roman Catholics believe so. A true Christian can lose his faith, loose his state of grace, and if he dies without repentance, he will condemn himself forever. You have made some very good points about that here.
Thanks for the video.
People often think that if you can lose your salvation then it is works based, do you have a response to this?
Is this the position taken by all Lutheran groups?
In the Lutheran view if someone falls away can they come back?
It's called repentance. Nothing particularly Lutheran about it. It's just Biblical.
I think of one falls away, the better way to describe it in my opinion is they never had a Christ-centered foundation of faith, as shown in the parable of the sower. Those who have a Christ-centered foundation of faith, will never fall away.
What about Christians who became atheists?
Dr Jordan can you tell me your thoughts on Hebrews 6:4-6
One of my friends had a true salvation experience. But for many years he lived a backslide life. Yet before few months before his death the Lord restored him to fellowship with him. His last life was very spiritual till his death. In heavenly peace and assurance he died in faith. This proves that a truly born again believer can never loose his salvation. Praise the Lord for His eternal grace.
No it doesn’t. It just proves that if we fall into the Valley and are brought back, it’s a gift from God, not our work. In the same way, it’s God who gives us the gift of Faith, and if we persevere, it’s because of the Holy Spirit, not us. But Scripture is clear that we can reject/wreck our faith.
So I praise God that your friend was like the Prodigal Son. That truly is good news. But I think it proves a different point then you may believe. God Bless
Correct!
Even if they can, I don't believe for a second that God wouldn't be actively pursuing them to come home. The parable of the Lost sheep runs entirely counter in my mind to the idea that someone can walk away and God just let's them go without protest or attempts to restore the relationship.
This doesn’t prove anything, I’ve had friends who were burning Christians then became non believers, they died non believers, point disproven
@@jamesmartinez2350 Can you prove they were "burning Christians"?
Thank you for Law & Gospel!
13:10 But there are cliffs, and only those who are really saved are able to take the warning signs to heart. "...And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me." Jeremiah 32:40 The Bible speaks using language of real salvation being lost because it's directed at everyone and the authors made no assumptions as to the genuineness of the reader's confession - all Christians at least profess to have true salvation. Therefore the warnings are given and true believers will heed those warnings and false professors will disregard.
Could you explain the Lutheran doctrine of election in light of this teaching of apostasy of genuine believers ?
Thank you
1 Corinthians 15:1 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1 Corinthians 15:3 - For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Corinthians 15:4 - And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Acts 16:30 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be Saved?
Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy House.
Once saved, always saved. If one can lose their salvation, then works become a part of salvation to be re-saved.
Of course it is. Faith without works is dead.
What do you say when a person struggles with and fell away for a time. Are they now not allowed to come back?
Would the prodigal son analogy or Peter renouncing Jesus at the crucifixion count as a means of a repenting or returning to the faith. This has been something I struggle with as a believer.
I am confused because in one video you stated that faith is a gift from God, and here you claim that we can lose that faith, even though you had said before that it is not us who has this faith. A lot of what you are saying here does not line up with other videos. Please explain how faith is from God, and somehow we can forsake this faith, even though we could not obtain it by our own power.
You should see this: ua-cam.com/video/hP81996PyuA/v-deo.html
Gifts can be lost, can't they?
Suppose my rich eccentric aunt gave me a million dollars for Christmas. A free gift, right? I could lose that million by misplacing the check, right? Or I could blow it all on Vegas.
The state of grace is like this---once God gives it He won't take it back and no one can take it from us, but we can blow it, and all it takes to blow it is one mortal sin.
@@GeorgePenton-np9rh So you are comparing the gift of ETERNAL life to a million dollars? Says it all, I guess.
@@dragoncomosaics9282 Thanks. I agree with that video. I hold to the doctrines of eternal security because the Bible is so clear. Yet I hear so many conflicting views that I am confused at times.
@@EdgeOfEntropy17 It's what you call an anology, you know, like pearl of great price or the valuable coin the housewife sweeps the house for.
“No one can snatch them out of my hand.”
Can you repent?
Some say that Lutherans believe both that it is possible to lose one's faith, and that it is possible for the believer to have complete assurance of his own salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. ¿Is it true? ¿How can those two sentences be both true? ¿How can I have complete assurance of salvation through faith if I know that I can loose my faith?