Really loved hosting this discussion! Thanks to everyone for participating!! Also, make sure you check out the description box for additional/background reading and timestamps. Enjoy!
Clothes, Nippard. I want to see an episode on clothes. You talked with Alpha Destiny about it, like if you're lean you don't look buff with clothes on. But if you do an episode on clothes, comparing various degrees of tightness, I think that'd be a great reference video for all us *ehrm* vain people. I personally disagree with the point that lean doesn't look buff. With a half tight merino sweater you get that killer V-taper if you're lean, and only if you're lean, since it's waist size compared to shoulder width that you see.
Gospel of Jesus Christ. John 3:16 For God So loved the world that he gave his only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not Perish but have Everlasting Life. Jesus Christ Died on the Cross for all the sin of the World, and now we can be Forgiven of all of our sins and be washed clean by the Blood of Jesus Christ for our iniquities trespasses... now all you need to do is Repent of all of ur sins (Repent means Change ur Mind turning away from sinful things and being truly sorry with all ur heart, and if you Repent and still go back to sinful things nothing will happend but if you are truly serious Lord will change ur life forever) (example of repenting Father God I ask in Jesus Name please forgive me of all my Sins I acknowledge that im a sinful man/woman I am truly sorry and trust in Jesus that he lived suffered and died on the cross for me and my sins so I can be Forgiven was barried and that you rised him on the 3th day please wash me clean with the blood of Christ make in me a new heart that can love and forgive Lord change my desires change me Lord Jesus come into my life change everything about me make me a new creation fill me with ur HolySpirit...)is what sin is Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of eternal life in our Lord Jesus Christ. and the only way to heaven is Trough Jesus Christ there is no other way! John 14:6 I Am The Way The Truth And The Life No Man cometh to the Father Except Trough Me. and you are saved by Grace Trough Faith not by works, we cannot save urselfs from sin we don't get to go to heaven becausewe don't get to go to heaven because we are a Good People we are not!, we cannot earn ur salvation it is given to us as a Free Gift all we need to do is receive it! Romans 3:23 For All have sinned and Felt Short of the Glory of God. There is none Good but God!, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8 KJV. JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN REPENT AND BELIVE THE GOSPEL.
@@thesmellycatjazz what? The debate where Doucette kept asking questions like the ignorant fool that he is? Lol. Less of a debate more of a lecture. A gym teacher thinks he can debate an PhD expert in his own field?
I have to thank you for introducing me to Eric Trexler and Greg Nuckols. I love your podcast and theirs so much, it has enriched my life and sparked a love for nutrition and exercise that I didn’t know I had, even after doing a college degree in Nutrition Science!
I have to say, that was a very very nice gathering! Kudos to you Jeff for getting the gentlemen meet and discuss, especially when they sure have very busy schedules.
It seems like the argument could also be made that bulking to a higher bf% is actually better because they gain similar lean mass while bulking and more lean mass on the way back down while cutting
Did you forget about the more fat cells that you created that never go away u less you use liposuction In summary, fat cells initially expand (increase in size) to add 15 lbs of extra body fat. After 15 lbs of weight gain, fat cells multiply by turning stem cells (pre-adipocytes) in to fully functioning fat cells. Through multiplication, fat cells can potentially store an unlimited amount of extra body fat!
As someone who is still new to the fitness world this was really great because it ties in a lot of the concepts and practices from science based channels/blogs like yours. The more I understand the more intentional I can be with my choices! Big thanks to Jeff and the rest of the panelist!
What a great discussion from many different points of view. Mike's humor keeps it rolling. And Jeff, you ask really great questions man! Well done to all!
I love this content, Jeff! we should have more of those debates or simply discussions, like Revive Stronger, 3dmj Podcast and Iron Culture Podcast! Also, thanks for the timestamps!
Really enjoyed the podcast. One practical implication I feel that wasn‘t addressed (maybe it is later in the podcast, I am currently not fully through yet): Even though if it is of no advantage to lower your body fat first to reap the most gains, this strategy might make sense especially for those of us having a hard time getting their calories in and eating at surplus since lowering body fat should result also in having a lower caloric requirement. On the contrary: for those of us that really easily get their calories in and struggle with sticking to lower calorie intakes, it might make sense only to shed body fat once we have increased our caloric requirement by having built more muscle mass.
Totally agree man I have a very big apetite and really enjoy myself eating lots of healthy food and some fun junk every now and then I had spent the past 2 years trying to lose body fat and or maingain to hardly any results. Now I figure this very same logic you display on gaining first so that caloric intake must be higher for a cut sooo i started bulking. Been gaining 2lbs of body weight per week no prob for my first mass gain meso and feeling pretty damn good. Also running some calculations on what my cutting or maintenance calories would look like (I'm thinking about recomping downs instead of cutting) make a lot more se se now in terms of actual daily food
Gospel of Jesus Christ. John 3:16 For God So loved the world that he gave his only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not Perish but have Everlasting Life. Jesus Christ Died on the Cross for all the sin of the World, and now we can be Forgiven of all of our sins and be washed clean by the Blood of Jesus Christ for our iniquities trespasses... now all you need to do is Repent of all of ur sins (Repent means Change ur Mind turning away from sinful things and being truly sorry with all ur heart, and if you Repent and still go back to sinful things nothing will happend but if you are truly serious Lord will change ur life forever) (example of repenting Father God I ask in Jesus Name please forgive me of all my Sins I acknowledge that im a sinful man/woman I am truly sorry and trust in Jesus that he lived suffered and died on the cross for me and my sins so I can be Forgiven was barried and that you rised him on the 3th day please wash me clean with the blood of Christ make in me a new heart that can love and forgive Lord change my desires change me Lord Jesus come into my life change everything about me make me a new creation fill me with ur HolySpirit...)is what sin is Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of eternal life in our Lord Jesus Christ. and the only way to heaven is Trough Jesus Christ there is no other way! John 14:6 I Am The Way The Truth And The Life No Man cometh to the Father Except Trough Me. and you are saved by Grace Trough Faith not by works, we cannot save urselfs from sin we don't get to go to heaven becausewe don't get to go to heaven because we are a Good People we are not!, we cannot earn ur salvation it is given to us as a Free Gift all we need to do is receive it! Romans 3:23 For All have sinned and Felt Short of the Glory of God. There is none Good but God!, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8 KJV. JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN REPENT AND BELIVE THE GOSPEL.
While some might say this sort of thing doesn't matter and you should just train hard id like to point out that this is just one factor out of hundreds of factors for optimization. If you want complete optimization stay up to date on new findings. Awesome video thanks jeff!
Excellent video Jeff. Very enjoyable and informative. Leaning toward the practical conclusions from Mike and Menno for my personal journey given prospective payoff and uncertainty. Menno's statistical background really shines through here. Seriously dismantles the meta-analysis there.
I completely agree with Mike and Menno in this. These studies are in such a limited population with so many variables (diet) there isn't enough structure in them.
Debate-wise, Menno probably lost it from 1:18:00 on, I don’t think he should defend the position of energy surplus under high BF% impairs hypertrophy. He’d be better off arguing for cutting first by saying recovery and health suffers under higher BF%, and since you can still build muscle in a deficit under higher BF%, cutting first (thus recomp) will be the most rational action.
Mike's comments were great, very grounded and practical. Menno was a mess, he didn't make any real arguments about the subject at hand. He essentially said "it's possible that P ratios are different, and you haven't disproved it." That's not good enough.
thanks Jeff for the podcast, great information in all of them, is amazing to find all this information, the value of this talks are priceless, i just discover them and enjoying them immensely, like all your content, have you though of doing one with Igor from VitruvianPhysique , you guys are my go to for information, thanks again and keep them coming !!
General comment - Unless you can scientifically calculate numbers concentrate on ratios and windows of opportunity - 5 to 10% - 15 to 20% and so on - We should be very careful of people going to specifics unless the process is able to truly measure and repeat them on all subjects in a research... whatever the subject. Great setup Jeff you rock 🇨🇦
It definitely sounds like there are positive in each argument for people with different goals. I believe MOST people don't wanna be lineman or sumo wrestlers. Most people wanna be strong while still looking good. I'm still in the cut first clan, but I don't believe people need to cut super super low before starting a bulk. Maybe like 12-15% would be good enough before bulking.
Opinion: it’s worth staying on the leaner side while bulking for most regular people. For maximal absolute strength, it seems more advantageous to gain some more fat weight. I wouldn’t recommend it, but for an all time strength PR, it’s good to be big. I think people like Julius Maddox and Halfthor and most offensive linemen at at their biggest have more muscle skeletal muscle mass than elite bodybuilders. You can’t see it, but it’s under their fat.
Unlikely, since there seems to be no mechanistic pathway where if you cut down from 190KG you lose more muscle than if you cut down from 120KG or anything else, these people would be above elite bodybuilders by some orders of magnitude, and all they'd have to do is eat a less. That sounds way too optimistic to me. if you just run a quick calculation : 120kg lean body mass for a 190kg person (which is the average weight of these guys you are talking about) is about 37% body fat. If you look at some bodyfat pictures that's basically the range you'd expect from these guys, maybe a bit higher. I picked 120kg since most elite bodybuilders are above it. So at most these guys you're talking have almost as much muscle as elite bbs. Interesting thought, though.
It makes sense that building muscle within normal bf% ranges is easier. The body is less stressed by extremely high or low fat levels and is in a good position to prioritize muscle.
Greg Doucette you couldn’t blow up on your own like all the rest of the guys did. You couldn’t just provide knowledge, no not good enough so you had to resort to UA-cam clout chasing and drama. Deal with the consequence nobody actually watches you to learn anything.
Sooo… this is an amazing podcast, and as an outside observer, a competitive athlete, a clinician, and a scientist, I wonder if we aren’t incorrectly bridging the gap between mechanism and practicality. Clearly that has been the dichotomy of most of this podcast, but where I think I draw the line is in the variables that haven’t been considered- age, exogenous hormone supplementation, etc On a minimalistic level, we are trying to draw conclusions about a single variable- body fat percentage- and apply it to all of the invested parties On a practical level, we are ignoring the concept of performance specifity- namely that an offensive lineman or a sumo wrestler likely has different performance goals than a bodybuilder or figure athlete Certainly, all of these groups (or arguably both of these groups, if we want to simplify) have different training goals, and certainly all will benefit from being more muscular. That said, if we want to look at things on a strictly mechanistic level, all parties are correct, in that there simply isn’t enough evidence to suggest that body fat percentage as a single variable is predictive enough to determine rate of hypertrophy in a caloric surplus, with adequate training stimulus. That is a pretty specific study criteria, and there isn’t any literary evidence for or against this specific mechanistic variable, regardless of meta analytic data or inferred mechanisms from body fat-related inflammation or insulin sensitivity data.
Sorry, accidentally hit the reply button before I finished my reply My main point is really that if we are trying to find a mechanistic answer for p ratio, we are still a long way from it, in that body fat percentage is likely only a contributor, and we need to consider other variables like age, hormone levels, caloric intake, training stimulus, etc If that’s all this discussion is meant to be, then that’s where this conversation ends, until further literary evidence is presented However, if we are indeed talking about practicality, all parties here have valid points, and we can easily disseminate them, thusly: A physique athlete, or otherwise health-interested individual should likely err on the side of maintaining a lower body fat percentage, for performance and potential health benefits. This would also likely apply to lighter and mid range strength athletes that endeavor to compete in weight class sports Outside of that, an athlete that plans to compete in a sport where body mass is an advantage (linemen, sumo, potentially heavy and super heavyweight powerlifting, strongman, throwing sports, etc) maybe shouldn’t shy away from caloric surplus in the presence of sufficient training stimulus, regardless of body fat percentage, as we will likely still reap a performance benefit
I would also like to state that prior to this Jeff nippard interview, my previous view aligned greatly with Greg and Eric’s meta analysis, but I think menno actually makes a lot of practical points here. It still doesn’t adequately address the “body fat percentage as a sole variable” mechanism question, but I think he makes some great practical points that escape the idea of “ignore your body fat, because you can potentially make gains no matter how fat you are” sort of thinking, which ignores robustly established ideas like how muscularity impacts weight class based performance in powerlifting
I’ve switched to year round “Main-Gaining” because I bulked and cut for 3 years with a perfect diet and made less compound progress. The first year I stayed around maintenance I made the most progress.
Sounds similar to what I've done. I once went on an all out bulk but had to lose 40 pounds in a cut. Afterwards, I decided that the bulking and cutting cycle just wasn't fun . So I decided to maintain a certain weight and body fat percentage before accidentally getting leaner . I made much more progress and even got stronger in certain lifts.
Are you maintaining the same weight year round or is there weight fluctuation and if so what were your before and after weights? The reason I ask is because the people I've seen claim that maingaining worked for them weren't actually maintaining, they were usually gaining at a rate of 0.5 - 1 lb per week which is just a standard bulk.
@@vcorkleth l legitimately maintain, I gained around 3 pounds in 10 months last year, most of which was lean mass because I was noticeably leaner and visibly bigger. 3 pounds isn’t really lean bulk territory over that time, it’s more like maintenance because that’s .3 lbs a month
That's was absolutely magnificast Thanks for the interesting information 🥺🥺I wished it was about organizing food and exercise during Ramadan because there is a lot of wrong information about how to organize it, I hope these researchers will inform us about this topic and thank you very much for the video again it was descent
1:34:44 Am I wrong that the Null Hypothesis, by definition and convention, is that the two variables are unrelated, or IOW that the effect between the two doesn't exist? 🧐 So they correctly identified the Null Hypothesis as that there is no relation between BF% and P-ratios.
When I learned today what the p-ratio is it sounded to me that it describes a ratio, but does not necessarily relate to absolute amount of muscle gained. like a 100lb person gained 10% weight and 5lb of muscle a 300lb person gains 10% and 30lbs may gain 10lb of muscle (lower p-ratio. but more absolute muscle) So Mike Israetel take on why this matters in training was useful, at some point being to over-fat affects ability to move / recover / sleep/ perform exercises correctly, and makes you sick
While I appreciate the depth of the debate, in the end I feel as if p-ratios have little to no effect in the not crazy BF ranges (10 to 25%) and the decision to bulk within those ranges is left to each individual to decide and will most likely be based solely on subjective elements (do you want to always look like you are 15% or you don't mind looking like 25% BF, for example). I can say I feel awful at anything higher than 20%, so I try not to go over that when bulking, but to some 20 to 25% may not even be an issue, and in neither cases, based on the debate, hypertrophy should not be affected, provided you train and eat appropriately.
Yeah, I think the key takeaway is that managing bodyfat specifically for the sake of a better p-ratio is unnecessary for almost anybody watching. Few of us are even thinking about getting to 30%, it’s more like, “Reddit said I have to stop massing at 15%, but can I go to 17%?” The difference between those two levels is somewhere between zero and minuscule.
What the fuck. I didn't know about this channel. And here I was thinking the lockdowns had been rough on Jeff. He's been making all this content over here in secret.
I wish somebody would have responded to Mike on fast twitch vs slow switch muscle as it pertains to someone’s natural fat level having an affect on all this
Great conversation! I just had a small query, if someone is 400lbs and has the ability to live a relatively normal life, in order to do so they would have to be walking around with quite a bit of muscle, therefore having less muscle left to gain. So could it be said that in virtue of the necessity to have more muscle if you have more fat while living a normal life, that the fat reduces the muscle you can gain?
Menno hensalman's Research on human body's each muscle's sizes compared to each other is super usefull we would like to see more of it in a more detailed version I am using a Picture from him research till now
I love Menno and Mike(erotically), it was really nice to hear from Greg and Eric as well! The Great Bulking Debate was greatly educational but maybe next time you guys do it with your shirts off
In summary: there's no real debate here. It's unanimous among all participants here that p-ratio for bfp > 10% (for males) is more or less constant and, though there's many very good reasons why for many people it's preferable to remain under 20% body fat, p-ratio does not appear to be a valid one as far as current evidence can tell. Much of the "debate" here is one side stating p-ratios don't matter and the other side conceding they don't matter and highlighting other factors influenced by bfp that do matter.
I think there needs to be a deep dive into p-ratio on actual human tissue. Surely, deceased lifters have lots of data too!? Where the donors at 😂❤ just to be clear, fat has more energy (Kj) however, what about hormones, cell composition like rates of mitochondria e.g brown vs white fat. Biologically little is known about the concept of partitioning because we don't know the exact nutritional components.
Really loved hosting this discussion! Thanks to everyone for participating!! Also, make sure you check out the description box for additional/background reading and timestamps. Enjoy!
Wow! Looking forward to it!!!
I thought this discussion turned out to be really fruitful. You hosted it well.
I'm hurt you didn't invite me :)
Clothes, Nippard. I want to see an episode on clothes. You talked with Alpha Destiny about it, like if you're lean you don't look buff with clothes on. But if you do an episode on clothes, comparing various degrees of tightness, I think that'd be a great reference video for all us *ehrm* vain people. I personally disagree with the point that lean doesn't look buff. With a half tight merino sweater you get that killer V-taper if you're lean, and only if you're lean, since it's waist size compared to shoulder width that you see.
Amazing video!
Dr. Mike is a comedic genius.
He's the kind of teacher I wish to be one day, absolute gem of a person.
@@esmee6308 it seems like it would be fairly challenging to incite him to violence. You need that tolerance as a teacher
@@esmee6308 Keep it up, chief!
"tears may or may not be anabolic"
Hes pretty funny. What drugs are you on rn?
We need to see video of Mike’s intense RPE 9 eye blinking. We are missing out
Hahaha seriously. He makes me feel like I have to be standing when he’s talking
Gospel of Jesus Christ. John 3:16 For God So loved the world that he gave his only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not Perish but have Everlasting Life. Jesus Christ Died on the Cross for all the sin of the World, and now we can be Forgiven of all of our sins and be washed clean by the Blood of Jesus Christ for our iniquities trespasses... now all you need to do is Repent of all of ur sins (Repent means Change ur Mind turning away from sinful things and being truly sorry with all ur heart, and if you Repent and still go back to sinful things nothing will happend but if you are truly serious Lord will change ur life forever) (example of repenting Father God I ask in Jesus Name please forgive me of all my Sins I acknowledge that im a sinful man/woman I am truly sorry and trust in Jesus that he lived suffered and died on the cross for me and my sins so I can be Forgiven was barried and that you rised him on the 3th day please wash me clean with the blood of Christ make in me a new heart that can love and forgive Lord change my desires change me Lord Jesus come into my life change everything about me make me a new creation fill me with ur HolySpirit...)is what sin is Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of eternal life in our Lord Jesus Christ. and the only way to heaven is Trough Jesus Christ there is no other way! John 14:6 I Am The Way The Truth And The Life No Man cometh to the Father Except Trough Me. and you are saved by Grace Trough Faith not by works, we cannot save urselfs from sin we don't get to go to heaven becausewe don't get to go to heaven because we are a Good People we are not!, we cannot earn ur salvation it is given to us as a Free Gift all we need to do is receive it! Romans 3:23 For All have sinned and Felt Short of the Glory of God. There is none Good but God!, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 KJV. JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN REPENT AND BELIVE THE GOSPEL.
I love Mike Israetel being on this! Keeps it practical and light hearted
Mike should be in on every debate soley as comic relief
@@vicvin64 well he also knows a shit-ton of stuff, which always comes in handy in a debate lol gotta love the man
Hes very neutral, made great points and had a great sense of humor. Loved his parts in this podcast.
@@vicvin64 The one with him and Greg Doucette wasn't a good look for him
@@thesmellycatjazz what? The debate where Doucette kept asking questions like the ignorant fool that he is? Lol. Less of a debate more of a lecture. A gym teacher thinks he can debate an PhD expert in his own field?
"Tears may or may not be anabolic"
Bulk until you aren't comfortable taking your shirt off.
This doesn't work as well for most women.
Nor does it work for those with low self-esteem.
That is bulking going too far
I'm pretty confident, I'd end my bulk at like 40% bf if I did this haha
I used to say this, but I noticed it doesn’t work that great for guys with body dysmorphia so know the audience
@@marcusosborne6123 if you don’t have body dysmorphia you are a casual.
"you go to the pool, children make fun of you, you cry... and you cant hurt children legally in america" XD
tears may or may not be anabolic
I have to thank you for introducing me to Eric Trexler and Greg Nuckols. I love your podcast and theirs so much, it has enriched my life and sparked a love for nutrition and exercise that I didn’t know I had, even after doing a college degree in Nutrition Science!
I also love the SBS programs
Me as a woman have to remind myself to add 8-10% bf as the information in this discussion relates to me.
9.8!
Samee,
In the past I used to think that I should use the same percentages as males and I was like what the hell I'm so fat lolol
Me as a man has to remind myself to add the same as the pizza and beer relate to me
That’s so sexist
@@cityslickeroutdoors8306 how
"some people just want to have a big coffin" - Greg Nuckols.
Love it
Such as Greg himself lol
It's an indirect quote from Dom Mazetti: "live large, die large, leave a giant ****ing coffin"
I like how the Stronger by Science duo is listening intensly and taking notes while Menno is talking.
1:53:40 My man jeff cracks up/giggles at Dr mike’s lines just as much as I do, what a guy
The long awaited, highly anticipated, and most debated.... so stoked
I have to say, that was a very very nice gathering! Kudos to you Jeff for getting the gentlemen meet and discuss, especially when they sure have very busy schedules.
It seems like the argument could also be made that bulking to a higher bf% is actually better because they gain similar lean mass while bulking and more lean mass on the way back down while cutting
Did you forget about the more fat cells that you created that never go away u less you use liposuction
In summary, fat cells initially expand (increase in size) to add 15 lbs of extra body fat. After 15 lbs of weight gain, fat cells multiply by turning stem cells (pre-adipocytes) in to fully functioning fat cells. Through multiplication, fat cells can potentially store an unlimited amount of extra body fat!
As someone who is still new to the fitness world this was really great because it ties in a lot of the concepts and practices from science based channels/blogs like yours. The more I understand the more intentional I can be with my choices! Big thanks to Jeff and the rest of the panelist!
Dr. Mike is a masterful communicator
i want a version of the podcast to be posted that’s only mikes video. two whole hours of watching mikes mannerisms
HBO Max should shell out for this director's cut
What a great discussion from many different points of view. Mike's humor keeps it rolling. And Jeff, you ask really great questions man! Well done to all!
I love this content, Jeff!
we should have more of those debates or simply discussions, like Revive Stronger, 3dmj Podcast and Iron Culture Podcast!
Also, thanks for the timestamps!
Definitely
Really enjoyed the podcast. One practical implication I feel that wasn‘t addressed (maybe it is later in the podcast, I am currently not fully through yet): Even though if it is of no advantage to lower your body fat first to reap the most gains, this strategy might make sense especially for those of us having a hard time getting their calories in and eating at surplus since lowering body fat should result also in having a lower caloric requirement. On the contrary: for those of us that really easily get their calories in and struggle with sticking to lower calorie intakes, it might make sense only to shed body fat once we have increased our caloric requirement by having built more muscle mass.
good observation
Totally agree man
I have a very big apetite and really enjoy myself eating lots of healthy food and some fun junk every now and then
I had spent the past 2 years trying to lose body fat and or maingain to hardly any results.
Now I figure this very same logic you display on gaining first so that caloric intake must be higher for a cut sooo i started bulking. Been gaining 2lbs of body weight per week no prob for my first mass gain meso and feeling pretty damn good. Also running some calculations on what my cutting or maintenance calories would look like (I'm thinking about recomping downs instead of cutting) make a lot more se se now in terms of actual daily food
“What should I do with my client’s or my body fat?” - Make soap!
1:59:40 - Greg's reaction to not being included is GOLD.
Haha because he a chubby guy
lolol
So clearly excluded as his comfortable BF levels are higher 😆
@@spodergibbs5088he's not chubby. He is obese
please do more videos like this! these kind of longform roundtable discussions are fantastic, I wish there were a lot more
Gospel of Jesus Christ. John 3:16 For God So loved the world that he gave his only Begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not Perish but have Everlasting Life. Jesus Christ Died on the Cross for all the sin of the World, and now we can be Forgiven of all of our sins and be washed clean by the Blood of Jesus Christ for our iniquities trespasses... now all you need to do is Repent of all of ur sins (Repent means Change ur Mind turning away from sinful things and being truly sorry with all ur heart, and if you Repent and still go back to sinful things nothing will happend but if you are truly serious Lord will change ur life forever) (example of repenting Father God I ask in Jesus Name please forgive me of all my Sins I acknowledge that im a sinful man/woman I am truly sorry and trust in Jesus that he lived suffered and died on the cross for me and my sins so I can be Forgiven was barried and that you rised him on the 3th day please wash me clean with the blood of Christ make in me a new heart that can love and forgive Lord change my desires change me Lord Jesus come into my life change everything about me make me a new creation fill me with ur HolySpirit...)is what sin is Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of eternal life in our Lord Jesus Christ. and the only way to heaven is Trough Jesus Christ there is no other way! John 14:6 I Am The Way The Truth And The Life No Man cometh to the Father Except Trough Me. and you are saved by Grace Trough Faith not by works, we cannot save urselfs from sin we don't get to go to heaven becausewe don't get to go to heaven because we are a Good People we are not!, we cannot earn ur salvation it is given to us as a Free Gift all we need to do is receive it! Romans 3:23 For All have sinned and Felt Short of the Glory of God. There is none Good but God!, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 KJV. JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN REPENT AND BELIVE THE GOSPEL.
Incredible discussion, thanks for putting this together.
Thanks Dr Mike, after listening to your initial 5mins I’m sold and not going any further
best thing to wake up to 🙌🏼 been waiting for this one
While some might say this sort of thing doesn't matter and you should just train hard id like to point out that this is just one factor out of hundreds of factors for optimization. If you want complete optimization stay up to date on new findings. Awesome video thanks jeff!
so glad you are battling against broscience that’s plagued bodybuilding for so long
What a wonderful discussion. I rarely ever watch a discussion like this especially if its 2 hours long. This was really good though. Loved it!
Bro I didn’t know you had the funding to film a movie!
The guys worth over 50 million, and brings in 5-6 million a year.
@@immelting9834 Jeff?
@@PGproductionsHD net worth of roughly 800 grand. Hes doing good, but not crushing it like that
@@rockyevans1584 lol. My man thinks he is worth 50 mil. Like wtf
@@jefftparker He was giving you the value in Pesos! 😆
I wanna see a reality show where they make Mike Israetel run a daycare for ADD kids
Excellent video Jeff. Very enjoyable and informative. Leaning toward the practical conclusions from Mike and Menno for my personal journey given prospective payoff and uncertainty. Menno's statistical background really shines through here. Seriously dismantles the meta-analysis there.
I completely agree with Mike and Menno in this.
These studies are in such a limited population with so many variables (diet) there isn't enough structure in them.
Debate-wise, Menno probably lost it from 1:18:00 on, I don’t think he should defend the position of energy surplus under high BF% impairs hypertrophy. He’d be better off arguing for cutting first by saying recovery and health suffers under higher BF%, and since you can still build muscle in a deficit under higher BF%, cutting first (thus recomp) will be the most rational action.
Mike's comments were great, very grounded and practical. Menno was a mess, he didn't make any real arguments about the subject at hand. He essentially said "it's possible that P ratios are different, and you haven't disproved it." That's not good enough.
I've only just realized this, but i love how you have a copy of Stephanie's book as part of your set up!
I subscribed to the main channel back at 8k from the original roundtables. Thanks for putting these together!
nobody:
Jeff: hormonal milieuoueauoe
PS: Great podcast as always!
Hi Jeff,
I think we'd all love to see Derek moreplatesmoredates on your podcast at some point discussing a pharmacology topic of your choice.
Drinking game: one shot each time you hear "Supraphysiological."
Thx for giving us this unbelievable content 🔥
Heart Says "Watch this full 2 hr video for amazing informative content"
Mind Says "Stfu its 2 am and go to bed"
Look up “the awkward yeti” website and it’s comics, you will appreciate them based on this comment
Just watch it when you are awake and regenerated
This episode was AWESOME! I subscribed to Stronger By Science because of this episode.
Love Jeffs content and him bringing some of my faves to this episode make me so happy😊!
thanks Jeff for the podcast, great information in all of them, is amazing to find all this information, the value of this talks are priceless, i just discover them and enjoying them immensely, like all your content, have you though of doing one with Igor from VitruvianPhysique , you guys are my go to for information, thanks again and keep them coming !!
General comment - Unless you can scientifically calculate numbers concentrate on ratios and windows of opportunity - 5 to 10% - 15 to 20% and so on - We should be very careful of people going to specifics unless the process is able to truly measure and repeat them on all subjects in a research... whatever the subject. Great setup Jeff you rock 🇨🇦
"Tears may or may not be anabolic."
My goodness had me dyin 😂😂😂😭😭
The middle finger scenario had me dying lol
I will save this to later watch it, because I haven't seen all the podcast that you made it, thank you for this!
It definitely sounds like there are positive in each argument for people with different goals. I believe MOST people don't wanna be lineman or sumo wrestlers. Most people wanna be strong while still looking good. I'm still in the cut first clan, but I don't believe people need to cut super super low before starting a bulk. Maybe like 12-15% would be good enough before bulking.
I like Mike. He's funny as hell and has good points supporting both sides. Got a new sub for sure
woaaahh. that was soooper amazing... super informative. So simplified. Really loved the debate.
Opinion: it’s worth staying on the leaner side while bulking for most regular people.
For maximal absolute strength, it seems more advantageous to gain some more fat weight. I wouldn’t recommend it, but for an all time strength PR, it’s good to be big. I think people like Julius Maddox and Halfthor and most offensive linemen at at their biggest have more muscle skeletal muscle mass than elite bodybuilders. You can’t see it, but it’s under their fat.
Unlikely, since there seems to be no mechanistic pathway where if you cut down from 190KG you lose more muscle than if you cut down from 120KG or anything else, these people would be above elite bodybuilders by some orders of magnitude, and all they'd have to do is eat a less. That sounds way too optimistic to me.
if you just run a quick calculation : 120kg lean body mass for a 190kg person (which is the average weight of these guys you are talking about) is about 37% body fat. If you look at some bodyfat pictures that's basically the range you'd expect from these guys, maybe a bit higher.
I picked 120kg since most elite bodybuilders are above it. So at most these guys you're talking have almost as much muscle as elite bbs.
Interesting thought, though.
Oh my god, a 2 hour Jeff Nippard video? Cancelling my afternoon plans
Great vid, I appreciate the knowledge fellas and thanks for sharing 🙏
Mike was simply too huge to fit in the frame, let’s be real here
Great debate, love all these guys.
2 hours of amazing info. guess I’ll be skipping class for real education
Eric and Greg won the debate hands down! Very informative podcast!!
What an awesome discussion. Need more like this
This was pure value!!!! thank you
we need more of these!
Awesome debate, thanks to all who participated and Jeff for hosting this! But we really missed out on Mikes video footage, get better software Jeff! 😛
Jeff can you please interview John Meadows again and ask him about his 24 hours fasting philosophy to improve insulin sensitivity during a bulk?
I loved this podcast, very interesting as usual, apparently the most important thing seems to be the context of the lifter to decide what to do
Great discussion, very informative and entertaining.
seems like a simple argument of either following null hypothesis as the norm vs. theoratically potential benefit with a different approach.
*Awesome Episode* rebuttal to the rebuttal of the rebuttal
Bro this is awesome!!!! Plz do more of these.
I like Eric's synthesis of the conversation at the end.
With bulking comes strength. Works every time.
It makes sense that building muscle within normal bf% ranges is easier. The body is less stressed by extremely high or low fat levels and is in a good position to prioritize muscle.
"Tears may or may not be anabolic" I felt that
I love Dr.israetel
Greg Nuckols the only greg we recognize
🦟 lol ya and by we u mean 100 of u
@@gregdoucette the only Greg I recognize is Pope Gregory I
Greg Doucette you couldn’t blow up on your own like all the rest of the guys did. You couldn’t just provide knowledge, no not good enough so you had to resort to UA-cam clout chasing and drama. Deal with the consequence nobody actually watches you to learn anything.
@@gregdoucette How fragile is your ego? You keep on showing new lows 😂.
@@gregdoucette I used to watch your channel when It was actually about info, now it's a soap opera
Sooo… this is an amazing podcast, and as an outside observer, a competitive athlete, a clinician, and a scientist, I wonder if we aren’t incorrectly bridging the gap between mechanism and practicality. Clearly that has been the dichotomy of most of this podcast, but where I think I draw the line is in the variables that haven’t been considered- age, exogenous hormone supplementation, etc
On a minimalistic level, we are trying to draw conclusions about a single variable- body fat percentage- and apply it to all of the invested parties
On a practical level, we are ignoring the concept of performance specifity- namely that an offensive lineman or a sumo wrestler likely has different performance goals than a bodybuilder or figure athlete
Certainly, all of these groups (or arguably both of these groups, if we want to simplify) have different training goals, and certainly all will benefit from being more muscular.
That said, if we want to look at things on a strictly mechanistic level, all parties are correct, in that there simply isn’t enough evidence to suggest that body fat percentage as a single variable is predictive enough to determine rate of hypertrophy in a caloric surplus, with adequate training stimulus. That is a pretty specific study criteria, and there isn’t any literary evidence for or against this specific mechanistic variable, regardless of meta analytic data or inferred mechanisms from body fat-related inflammation or insulin sensitivity data.
Sorry, accidentally hit the reply button before I finished my reply
My main point is really that if we are trying to find a mechanistic answer for p ratio, we are still a long way from it, in that body fat percentage is likely only a contributor, and we need to consider other variables like age, hormone levels, caloric intake, training stimulus, etc
If that’s all this discussion is meant to be, then that’s where this conversation ends, until further literary evidence is presented
However, if we are indeed talking about practicality, all parties here have valid points, and we can easily disseminate them, thusly:
A physique athlete, or otherwise health-interested individual should likely err on the side of maintaining a lower body fat percentage, for performance and potential health benefits. This would also likely apply to lighter and mid range strength athletes that endeavor to compete in weight class sports
Outside of that, an athlete that plans to compete in a sport where body mass is an advantage (linemen, sumo, potentially heavy and super heavyweight powerlifting, strongman, throwing sports, etc) maybe shouldn’t shy away from caloric surplus in the presence of sufficient training stimulus, regardless of body fat percentage, as we will likely still reap a performance benefit
I would also like to state that prior to this Jeff nippard interview, my previous view aligned greatly with Greg and Eric’s meta analysis, but I think menno actually makes a lot of practical points here. It still doesn’t adequately address the “body fat percentage as a sole variable” mechanism question, but I think he makes some great practical points that escape the idea of “ignore your body fat, because you can potentially make gains no matter how fat you are” sort of thinking, which ignores robustly established ideas like how muscularity impacts weight class based performance in powerlifting
I’ve switched to year round “Main-Gaining” because I bulked and cut for 3 years with a perfect diet and made less compound progress. The first year I stayed around maintenance I made the most progress.
@Bradley Puppies Interesting, I've done both and made no progress and a shoulder injury hahah... (sigh)
Sounds similar to what I've done. I once went on an all out bulk but had to lose 40 pounds in a cut. Afterwards, I decided that the bulking and cutting cycle just wasn't fun . So I decided to maintain a certain weight and body fat percentage before accidentally getting leaner . I made much more progress and even got stronger in certain lifts.
@Bradley Puppies Same
Are you maintaining the same weight year round or is there weight fluctuation and if so what were your before and after weights? The reason I ask is because the people I've seen claim that maingaining worked for them weren't actually maintaining, they were usually gaining at a rate of 0.5 - 1 lb per week which is just a standard bulk.
@@vcorkleth l legitimately maintain, I gained around 3 pounds in 10 months last year, most of which was lean mass because I was noticeably leaner and visibly bigger. 3 pounds isn’t really lean bulk territory over that time, it’s more like maintenance because that’s .3 lbs a month
That's was absolutely magnificast
Thanks for the interesting information
🥺🥺I wished it was about organizing food and exercise during Ramadan because there is a lot of wrong information about how to organize it, I hope these researchers will inform us about this topic and thank you very much for the video again it was descent
Not even pro-bulk but still excited to hear everyone's opinion
1:34:44 Am I wrong that the Null Hypothesis, by definition and convention, is that the two variables are unrelated, or IOW that the effect between the two doesn't exist? 🧐 So they correctly identified the Null Hypothesis as that there is no relation between BF% and P-ratios.
When I learned today what the p-ratio is it sounded to me that it describes a ratio, but does not necessarily relate to absolute amount of muscle gained. like a 100lb person gained 10% weight and 5lb of muscle a 300lb person gains 10% and 30lbs may gain 10lb of muscle (lower p-ratio. but more absolute muscle)
So Mike Israetel take on why this matters in training was useful, at some point being to over-fat affects ability to move / recover / sleep/ perform exercises correctly, and makes you sick
If you're on the gear, as so many in the fitness industry are, it doesn't matter what you do you will get big and then some
Last 2 minutes were hilarious 😂
good study，thanks Jeff
While I appreciate the depth of the debate, in the end I feel as if p-ratios have little to no effect in the not crazy BF ranges (10 to 25%) and the decision to bulk within those ranges is left to each individual to decide and will most likely be based solely on subjective elements (do you want to always look like you are 15% or you don't mind looking like 25% BF, for example). I can say I feel awful at anything higher than 20%, so I try not to go over that when bulking, but to some 20 to 25% may not even be an issue, and in neither cases, based on the debate, hypertrophy should not be affected, provided you train and eat appropriately.
Yeah, I think the key takeaway is that managing bodyfat specifically for the sake of a better p-ratio is unnecessary for almost anybody watching. Few of us are even thinking about getting to 30%, it’s more like, “Reddit said I have to stop massing at 15%, but can I go to 17%?” The difference between those two levels is somewhere between zero and minuscule.
What the fuck. I didn't know about this channel.
And here I was thinking the lockdowns had been rough on Jeff. He's been making all this content over here in secret.
A true classic debate 👌
Thanks guys.
I wish somebody would have responded to Mike on fast twitch vs slow switch muscle as it pertains to someone’s natural fat level having an affect on all this
Great conversation! I just had a small query, if someone is 400lbs and has the ability to live a relatively normal life, in order to do so they would have to be walking around with quite a bit of muscle, therefore having less muscle left to gain. So could it be said that in virtue of the necessity to have more muscle if you have more fat while living a normal life, that the fat reduces the muscle you can gain?
Thanks for thinking of the ladies.
TLDW:
If you’re fat, don’t bulk.
How far
Menno hensalman's Research on human body's each muscle's sizes compared to each other is super usefull we would like to see more of it in a more detailed version I am using a Picture from him research till now
Jeff you are a shredded beast.
This should be called “the great p-ratio debate”.
I love Menno and Mike(erotically), it was really nice to hear from Greg and Eric as well! The Great Bulking Debate was greatly educational but maybe next time you guys do it with your shirts off
So male powerlifting records, except in superheavy, tend to be set around 12% body fat; any numbers on superheavy bodyfat %age for record-setters?
has any relevant study recently come out about the P-Ratio and body fat?
In summary: there's no real debate here. It's unanimous among all participants here that p-ratio for bfp > 10% (for males) is more or less constant and, though there's many very good reasons why for many people it's preferable to remain under 20% body fat, p-ratio does not appear to be a valid one as far as current evidence can tell. Much of the "debate" here is one side stating p-ratios don't matter and the other side conceding they don't matter and highlighting other factors influenced by bfp that do matter.
yup
I’ve been watching a lot of the Mike Israetel features and I tell ya what, the guy is funny!
Dude also hit a “preponderance of evidence” color me impressed
Most trusted fitness guru is Jeff for me 🙏🏾❤
He'd tell you to quit idolizing him and allow the science to be the guru. That's why Jeff's the best
I would have loved to see Broderick Chivaz in this podcast
Chavez
@@jamesdashper1316 i knew i butchered his name :(
I think there needs to be a deep dive into p-ratio on actual human tissue. Surely, deceased lifters have lots of data too!? Where the donors at 😂❤ just to be clear, fat has more energy (Kj) however, what about hormones, cell composition like rates of mitochondria e.g brown vs white fat. Biologically little is known about the concept of partitioning because we don't know the exact nutritional components.