*Contents:* 0:00 - Intro 0:54 - Detecting Fouls ---- 1:00 - no rail ---- 1:11 - double hits ---- 2:52 - wrong-ball first 3:52 - Double Hit Bad Calls 7:05 - Wrong Ball First Bad Calls 8:40 - No Rail Bad Calls 9:35 - Wrap Up *SEE OTHER VIDEO EXAMPLES LISTED AND LINKED IN THE VIDEO DESCRIPTION.* *Supporting Resources:* - Pool rules resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/ - Fouls resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/ - double-hit foul resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/ - wrong-ball-first foul resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/wrong-ball-first/ - Pool Rules Quiz: billiards.colostate.edu/rules-quiz/ Cited Videos: - “FOULS IN POOL ... Everything You Need to Know” video: ua-cam.com/video/xo52NlpB4FQ/v-deo.html - “How to detect and avoid a double hit foul” video: ua-cam.com/video/ubbAzu_sCS4/v-deo.html - Makala Tabb at Mosconi trying to contain hooligans in the crowd: ua-cam.com/video/vC4ixmMCra8/v-deo.html - “The MOST EPIC POOL MATCH of All Time - The Color of Money Match - Efren Reyes vs. Earl Strickland” video: ua-cam.com/video/EwGG9KUUzZU/v-deo.html - “8-BALL PLAYOFF: Efren REYES vs Roger GRIFFIS - 2001 ACCU-STATS 8-BALL INVITATIONAL CALIFORNIA” video: ua-cam.com/video/UaR_527PDrE/v-deo.html - “USBTC 8-Ball: Shane Van Boening vs Manuel Perez” video: ua-cam.com/video/HFSF42BPvGE/v-deo.html - “2021 US 9-Ball Open: Foul Or Not?” video: facebook.com/watch/?v=1028600677984045 - “Keith McCready v. Efren Reyes 1988 Brunswick World Open” video: ua-cam.com/video/Jm8Y1SBzCd4/v-deo.htmlm59s
This is truly a great video you have here, Dr. Dave. A lot of shots here in this video also relate to a lot of bad calls I see in the amateur pool leagues. I shoot with a couple of people who think they know everything about pool. This is the perfect video for them to watch and determine what shots are good and what's not. Thank you for making this video.
I refereed for some events in FLA and SC, it was unreal how much people would argue with blatantly bad hits, especially the double hit shots, of which the physics can't really be argued with.
@@DrDaveBilliards yeah we chatted a bit in emails way back in the day when your book first came out. That was definitely the reason my game jumped through the roof in no time, Alas, the physics were not enough to win arguments about double hits lololol
Agreed. I wish all players and refs were required to watch this. They should also be required to watch "FOULS IN POOL ... Everything You Need to Know:" ua-cam.com/video/xo52NlpB4FQ/v-deo.html
Thanks. FYI, other good videos, and a lot more information, can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/ My "FOULS IN POOL ... Everything You Need to Know" video is particularly good for league players to view: ua-cam.com/video/xo52NlpB4FQ/v-deo.html
I think in your example used at both 6:00 and 7:00 there is a double hit foul. Even though the cue ball immediately comes back, the black stripe rehits the tip it’s first time by.
Thank you for this. I've seen quite a number of refs make obvious bad calls in the "which ball is hit first" category of foul. Having watched your videos, I knew that the cue ball always comes off tangent to the second ball hit, but a lot of referees obviously do not know that. They should all come watch this video!
Efren´s shot : It is easier to spot that was not foul from object ball in my opinion(in that case). If Efren hit 5 first it would be really thin hit and it would not have much speed after hit. It would move just a little distance. Tangent line difference on those kinda shots between foul and good hit is so small many can make a mistake. Speed on first ball is easier to judge.
I can't count the number of times I see an opponent do a double hit, I call it out or look up and everyone is like, "No, that was good" and I'm left standing there looking like an a-hole, steaming, because of peoples' inability to understand a double hit. Most people cannot feel a double hit when it happens so you can't always give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. I know I can't feel it, which is why I can identify it from the cue ball behavior, thanks to watching these videos.
Thanks for sharing these examples. The tangent line and forward motion are great indicators! Cant wait for the pool halls to open up again and apply this if needed!
You're welcome. It is good to hear from you. It has been a while. I think of you every time I load a new T-shirt design on the website since you have so many already.
That thumbnail of SVB doing that elevated shot. He had done it so many times without it being called a foul and he draws with the shot too. But since you said it was a foul then obviously Shane doing it numerous times is a foul
I have no idea who was playing, but Danny Dilaberto called one the ref didn't catch in a one pocket match. It's on an Accustat video. The CB went almost straight after the shot. If I ever run across it I'll letcha know.
Your information about how to detect fouls by the direction the balls roll is invaluable, and I've already had a couple of occasions to use it in league play. But it seems there are some cases involving rails where it really isn't so easy to tell. Here's an SVB/FSR match where the shot was called a foul: ua-cam.com/video/Ol4kALPznRo/v-deo.html The cue ball definitely hit the rail first, so at first it looked to me like a "no rail" foul, but being that close to the rail and the angle it hit, but I now agree with JJ that the cue ball likely bounced back against the rail before rolling out onto the table. What do you think?
I analyze that shot in detail in the the following two videos: ua-cam.com/video/A67uOvTsMA8/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/-Y_6ywIC8rA/v-deo.html Check them out.
As usual, another great video. I think the ones that upset me most are the double hit fouls. Not just because the refs missed some easy ones, but those are also the easiest for a player to "feel", right? I love SVB but that double hit was really obvious I thought. He had to have known it was a double hit. It would be really cool to see them call a foul on themselves if the ref misses it. I know they want to win, but I think it's the classy thing to do.
@DrDaveBilliards In snooker, you will see players calling fouls on themselves all the time, even when there is no suspicion by anyone of a foul. They usually get a big applause from the audience. It's still considered the thing to do in Snooker. ua-cam.com/video/SGSRz6usnTI/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/8bqw7CamzIQ/v-deo.html
The jacked up move is an epidemic in pool. It seems like nobody understands the double hit and they all think you automatically get a free pass if you jack up and draw it back after the foul.
Also. Keith did right thing. Referee already picked up cueball. There is not much you can do then. He said that thing to Efren to show he knew Efren did not foul. Of course he did say that bad way, what is his style... ;)
Did you mean BCAPL? The "BCA" rules are the same as the WPA rules per the info here: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/ The WPA certainly doesn't have such a rule. And I just checked the BCAPL rule book and couldn't find such a rule. Could you let me know where your found this? FYI, links to the official WPA/BCA and BCAPL rule books can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/rule-differences/
@@DrDaveBilliards My book is really old but it is rule #2.20. Judging Double Hits: When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul. Thanks for your videos. Long time viewer.
Dr. Dave i have a question. What about if the cue ball is frozen to the object ball, the player shoot straight to the object ball and both balls go at the same speed one next to another, is it a foul?? Nobody talks about it, thanks
That is allowed under the WPA official rules of pool. It is not a foul because it is a single hit and the CB separates from the tip normally. For more info, see the videos and explanations here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/frozen/
Here's a possible bad call from an Earl Strickland/Cory Deuel match in 2002 -- Earl sure thought it was a bad call: ua-cam.com/video/wuCjdtKcvao/v-deo.html The ref called it not a foul, but both commentators thought it was a foul, presumably because the cue ball is driven forward at high speed. However, in the closeup, it looks like the balls are touching, which would make pushing through legal, right? (The commentators didn't mention this nuance.)
That shot was perfectly legal. You are allowed to hit into a frozen CB when the balls are frozen, per the info and demonstrations here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/frozen/ The CB goes forward, but the hit is clean with no "push" or "double hit."
I play people who hit the non-object ball first all the time. Many times I wonder WTF they are thinking since their are other shots. But it's always deny dent deny. AND then on an obvious no way it could be confused shot, they ask somebody to watch as if that "no way you could hit the other ball first" no-foul proves that the obvious foul was not a foul.
Two points: Killa, do you find that players acknowledge the rule that if both object balls are contacted simultaneously the shot is not a foul? (Is this rule universal?) Dr.Dave, have the rules changed to allow video review, especially from one player's camera? Or is this simply an educational suggestion?
@@raygrinders3918 There must be clear evidence that your ball is not hit first. I think it would be very difficult to know if two balls are hit simultaneously or not. To call a foul, I think there must be clear evidence that the wrong ball was struck first. Concerning video review, I am not aware of any official WPA rule that ever prohibited this. Are you?
9:15 Hey Doc, I need to clarify the legality of this shot. If a ball is frozen on a rail, you are allowed to make contact with the object ball first then touching that same rail after contact makes it legal? I thought if a ball is frozen, neither object ball or cue ball can use that rail to be legal. We’ve always played that after making legal contact with the frozen object ball, at least one ball has to touch a rail that is not the frozen rail. This is wrong?
Under the WPA “official rules of pool,” a ball needs to be driven to “any” rail after ball contact. The frozen rail counts. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
To be fair, I doubt many refs would call foul on those jacked up close double hits. There are far more egregious examples of double hit fouls not being called in matches 1990s and 2000s. Great video though, thanks.
I would hope most of today's refs would call a foul when the double hit is clear (based on the motion of the CB) with a jacked-up small-gap shot. I'm glad you liked the video.
@@DrDaveBilliards It's just that they seem to be pretty lenient when judging those shots, if a good faith effort is made to avoid the double hit, and that goes triple for the older matches. Thankfully they don't come up that frequently though. ; )
There is a tournament where Earl is wearing ear muffs and playing mike seigal. Mike's moves a ball with his sleeve that was crazy obvious. Accustat tournament maybe.
That is a good shot. You are allowed to hit into a frozen ball like this, and the CB goes forward without a double hit. See: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/frozen/
Dave, with all due respect, I would not call the VanBoening/Perez shot as a foul, as this one is too close to call a foul, at least from this video, and potentially without slow motion or at least an ideal vantage point. Let me explain my take on the shot. When using left and shooting downward at the object ball(affording him a slight overcut due to spin induced throw and therefore a little extra leeway in avoiding a double hit), the tip can avoid a second hit as the cueball slides ever so slightly out of the way. When doing so, as you explain, the cueball would exit on the tangent line. The reason I see this one as too close to call a foul is because the other ball next to both the cueball and object ball(appears to be the 14 ball) would almost immediately redirect the cueball onto the tangent line off of that ball. Shooting it this way, the cueball would then be going in the direction it did go, and the 14 would go in the direction it did. I am proposing that the cueball wasn't immediately double hit forward, but that it very quickly zig-zagged back into a generally forward direction after the impact off of the 14. Considering this, the issue goes back to if the tip gets out of the way of any secondary contact, and for me it is too close to call bad, so my ruling would go to the shooter. Being the champion that Shane is, I believe he anticipated exactly what ended up happening, and if he suspected that he didn't get the tip out of the way of a double hit, his body language would have reflected his dissapointment with not executing the shot without fouling, as he would not want to violate the rules. I am very curious to hear your take on this, and hopefully my somewhat rushed explanation is relatively clear.
Also, the use of left may or may not been involved in the shot. I am curious if you see any action that is out of line with what I am suggesting. Another possible moment of a double hit(that I also consider too close to call) is the tip hitting the cueball a second time just after the object ball contacts the 14, as that could happen without changing the action of the balls involved in any significantly detectable way, so I would still favor the shooter in regard to that potential action since it all happens so fast and therefore is undiscernable by the naked eye. Thank you for your time if you do read all this, as I value your input, as well as all that you do for the game we all love.
I wish I could include a close-up diagram of the shot and what I'm saying, as I could probably show what I'm talking about better than I can describe it. I have always appreciated the accuracy and clarity of your diagrams, something that most other pool instructional authors have lacked.
I understand your points; but I still think the double-hit foul is clear based on the motion of the CB. As I explain in the video, the CB would not have gone as forward as it did without a double hit since the tangent line into the 14 would have resulted in a fairly square hit. The 14 definitely makes the call tougher, but I still think the call is still clear. That CB went forward a lot. I think a single hit would not have sent the CB forward much (if at all) with the tangent-line direction into the 14 as it was.
@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks for responding and I hear what you're saying. I'm going to play around with the shot next time I get some table time to gain some more perspective. You're my favorite author I've come across when it comes to pool and I've refined my understanding of the physics of the game using your book, your Billiards Digest articles(particularly the ones on the intricacies of squirt and throw), and other resources you've put together. So a sincere thank you for that. It would be cool to hear what Shane would have to say about the shot as well. Take care kind sir!
1:27:45. ua-cam.com/video/bSEUQfrjSNM/v-deo.html Watch the 8 ball on the break, then watch the rest of the rack. Not a foul, but just goes to show why you watch the table like a hawk. Possibly cost him the match.
Thank you for sharing that. I hadn't seen it before. There must have been a big piece of chalk debris on the table. I added it to the list in the video description just because it is interesting.
What do you mean, "... watch the rest of the rack"? After 7 seconds of rolling balls, you see the 8-ball mysteriously go left-right. Someone else mentioned that it might be the same ball defect that made the 8-ball shot miss (1:30:00), allowing Morris to win the rack. If "him" means Morris' opponent, that's possible, and Morris might have been lucky to have scratched on the break!
Interested to hear your verdict on this situation from the Filler-Styer match from the 2021 Mosconi Cup. I thought this was a bad call since the contact with the 1 ball came before the second rail was hit as can be inferred from the cue ball speed and direction out of the rail. ua-cam.com/video/bL5uVCur2zw/v-deo.html
Thank you for posting the link. I've added it to the list in the video description. That one is really tough to call from the video. I think the CB hit the rail first and then the 1, with nothing getting to a rail; but you can't call a foul unless the visual evidence is clear. It is possible the CB grazed the 1 on the way to the cushion.
@@DrDaveBilliards I know but if the object ball is frozen to the rail, the cue ball or object ball would have to strike a different rail from the one the ball was frozen to... but it is untelling with Earl. 🤷♂️
Ralf Souquet vs Danny Harriman from the 2013 Accustats 14.1 Invitational. I don't know if this would be a bad call. ua-cam.com/video/hWcLFKyff38/v-deo.html
Thanks. That shot is good. The CB clearly comes off the tangent line of the 9 (and hits the 6) after hitting the 2. I've added it to the list in the video description anyway.
Hey dr Dave. Another weird one here, but would it be a foul and who is to blame? In Spain vs Vietnam, World Cup of pool 2018, the red racks the nine ball in the second row and the 3 in the center. You can see it just at the start of this video m.ua-cam.com/video/LO27l2Jz2w0/v-deo.html
In any other tournament, this would be a double-hit foul, but the Derby City rules oddly allows a double hit as long as you elevate the cue enough: derbycityclassic.com/the-rules/
The time stamp is just after Efren plays safe, putting object ball on the rail. But I seem to notice a slight bounce, but unsure. At 0.39 seconds. Opponent banks directly across to touch the object ball but doesn't subsequently hit a rail with cue ball. The question is I think impossible to judge from the video alone, as we don't know if OB was truly frozen. Unfortunately, neither player payed any close attention to it before the return shot. I recall asked you about this before ua-cam.com/video/z5K6DtBlkFo/v-deo.html
Applause to Roger Scott for including this incident (I'm glad I checked before doing so myself)! The cueball hitting a rail (after the "kick") was irrelevant since the question boils down to whether the cueball hit the undeclared-as-frozen orange ball, especially when Efren's shot didn't need to have the orange ball touch the (second) cushion. It was unfortunate that Efren didn't have the orange ball declared, and then he apparently watched the shot from an angle that hid the hit enough that he couldn't easily see any movement of the orange ball. Apparently there was no referee provided, and I still don't know the "legal" application of observers' opinions.
@@rogerscottcathey You need to scroll down to the “Other Bad, Questionable, or Interesting Pro Tournament Calls” section. It looks like a foul to me (with the CB touching the 5, but nothing getting to a rail), but it is difficult to tell from the video.
this takes away shanes credibility on the latest foul or not,he knew this was a foul and didnt call it so as with everything karma always comes back to get you
No we should not give referees slack. Slow motion cams can be the new refs period in any sport. So if something's better. There's no point in paying refs end of discussion.
Slow motion replay is most definitely a useful tool that should be employed, especially on questionable shots. Pretty much every player and ref has a smart phone that provides excellent slo-mo video capability.
@@DrDaveBilliards right or just install cams that can see every point of the table and fire the refs like we should do with umpires and football/basketball.
@@dustincobb5718 In high-profile pool matches, you still need a ref (for reviewing video when necessary, for making judgement calls when necessary, for racking, etc.).
Yeah, they actually do a tremendous job, MHO. And yeah, what Jason was doing there to Strickland was utter crap. One of the few times I've been on Strickland's side in one of these, but Jason was WAYYY out of line. It was not remotely his finest moment. I know Jason tends toward the hotheaded side, but that one REALLY didn't do him any favors.
I don't think that "episode" made both of them look bad. FYI, I discuss it some in my "Top 10 WILD and CRAZY POOL SHOTS of All Time" video here: ua-cam.com/video/JNrBg4mCVAs/v-deo.html
I don't hate Earl. On the contrary, I have tremendous respect for his amazing level of play ... and his longevity. I just don't like his occasional bad behavior that makes him and the pool world look bad.
It could also be evidence that Refs and players are now beginning to learn about the technical differentiation of cue ball travel in this circumstances, making “bad calls” far less common.
*Contents:*
0:00 - Intro
0:54 - Detecting Fouls
---- 1:00 - no rail
---- 1:11 - double hits
---- 2:52 - wrong-ball first
3:52 - Double Hit Bad Calls
7:05 - Wrong Ball First Bad Calls
8:40 - No Rail Bad Calls
9:35 - Wrap Up
*SEE OTHER VIDEO EXAMPLES LISTED AND LINKED IN THE VIDEO DESCRIPTION.*
*Supporting Resources:*
- Pool rules resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
- Fouls resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/
- double-hit foul resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
- wrong-ball-first foul resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/wrong-ball-first/
- Pool Rules Quiz: billiards.colostate.edu/rules-quiz/
Cited Videos:
- “FOULS IN POOL ... Everything You Need to Know” video: ua-cam.com/video/xo52NlpB4FQ/v-deo.html
- “How to detect and avoid a double hit foul” video: ua-cam.com/video/ubbAzu_sCS4/v-deo.html
- Makala Tabb at Mosconi trying to contain hooligans in the crowd: ua-cam.com/video/vC4ixmMCra8/v-deo.html
- “The MOST EPIC POOL MATCH of All Time - The Color of Money Match - Efren Reyes vs. Earl Strickland” video: ua-cam.com/video/EwGG9KUUzZU/v-deo.html
- “8-BALL PLAYOFF: Efren REYES vs Roger GRIFFIS - 2001 ACCU-STATS 8-BALL INVITATIONAL CALIFORNIA” video: ua-cam.com/video/UaR_527PDrE/v-deo.html
- “USBTC 8-Ball: Shane Van Boening vs Manuel Perez” video: ua-cam.com/video/HFSF42BPvGE/v-deo.html
- “2021 US 9-Ball Open: Foul Or Not?” video: facebook.com/watch/?v=1028600677984045
- “Keith McCready v. Efren Reyes 1988 Brunswick World Open” video: ua-cam.com/video/Jm8Y1SBzCd4/v-deo.htmlm59s
This is truly a great video you have here, Dr. Dave. A lot of shots here in this video also relate to a lot of bad calls I see in the amateur pool leagues. I shoot with a couple of people who think they know everything about pool. This is the perfect video for them to watch and determine what shots are good and what's not. Thank you for making this video.
Please spread the word. I wish all league players were required to watch this video.
This one too:
ua-cam.com/video/xo52NlpB4FQ/v-deo.html
I refereed for some events in FLA and SC, it was unreal how much people would argue with blatantly bad hits, especially the double hit shots, of which the physics can't really be argued with.
Well stated. Welcome to my world. :)
@@DrDaveBilliards yeah we chatted a bit in emails way back in the day when your book first came out. That was definitely the reason my game jumped through the roof in no time, Alas, the physics were not enough to win arguments about double hits lololol
Wow, whata insight, players and refs need to watch this. Great stuff again Dr Dave 👊
Agreed. I wish all players and refs were required to watch this. They should also be required to watch "FOULS IN POOL ... Everything You Need to Know:"
ua-cam.com/video/xo52NlpB4FQ/v-deo.html
This is an outstanding video. I've sent it to all team captains in my league to have them explain the concept to their players.
Thanks. FYI, other good videos, and a lot more information, can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/
My "FOULS IN POOL ... Everything You Need to Know" video is particularly good for league players to view:
ua-cam.com/video/xo52NlpB4FQ/v-deo.html
I think in your example used at both 6:00 and 7:00 there is a double hit foul. Even though the cue ball immediately comes back, the black stripe rehits the tip it’s first time by.
It is difficult to see in the video, but there is no second hit. The tip barely clears as the stripe passes.
Thank you for this. I've seen quite a number of refs make obvious bad calls in the "which ball is hit first" category of foul. Having watched your videos, I knew that the cue ball always comes off tangent to the second ball hit, but a lot of referees obviously do not know that. They should all come watch this video!
All refs and league players should be required to watch this video.
This one too:
ua-cam.com/video/xo52NlpB4FQ/v-deo.html
Efren´s shot : It is easier to spot that was not foul from object ball in my opinion(in that case). If Efren hit 5 first it would be really thin hit and it would not have much speed after hit. It would move just a little distance. Tangent line difference on those kinda shots between foul and good hit is so small many can make a mistake. Speed on first ball is easier to judge.
Good point. I should have mentioned that also. Although, the CB evidence is also very clear.
I can't count the number of times I see an opponent do a double hit, I call it out or look up and everyone is like, "No, that was good" and I'm left standing there looking like an a-hole, steaming, because of peoples' inability to understand a double hit. Most people cannot feel a double hit when it happens so you can't always give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. I know I can't feel it, which is why I can identify it from the cue ball behavior, thanks to watching these videos.
Now if could just convince everybody else to watch videos like this. 🙄
@europe#1 Thanks for the hot take.
@europe#1 😂😂😂
well a p a rules say that if the balls are touching its not a foul which to me just leads to more confusion
Another great and enlightening video from my favorite pool guru! Thanks Dr. Dave! 😊
Thank you, and you're welcome! I aim to swerve. :)
Thanks for sharing these examples.
The tangent line and forward motion are great indicators!
Cant wait for the pool halls to open up again and apply this if needed!
You're welcome. It is good to hear from you. It has been a while. I think of you every time I load a new T-shirt design on the website since you have so many already.
buddy, what area do you live in where the pool halls are closed? That's pain man
@@DrDaveBilliards i do have a few 😀
I enjoy them!
@@vishybreh Canada 🇨🇦
Amazing video Dr. Dave. Thanks for new knowledge on fouls
Thanks. FYI, a lot more info and videos dealing with all sorts of fouls can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/
Enjoy!
Excellent video Sir. About time I'd say. The Keith McCready one was obvious effery.
Thanks. I'm glad you liked it.
That thumbnail of SVB doing that elevated shot. He had done it so many times without it being called a foul and he draws with the shot too. But since you said it was a foul then obviously Shane doing it numerous times is a foul
Great Video!!! Only when one knows the basic principles of cue ball motion can one detect fouls even if one cannot see it directly
Thanks. Well stated.
Excellent video I enjoyed watching that
Thanks. I’m glad you liked it.
Nice work dave.
Thanks. I'm glad you liked it.
I can't imagine calling a double hit foul on some of the wackos in my league.
I have no idea who was playing, but Danny Dilaberto called one the ref didn't catch in a one pocket match. It's on an Accustat video. The CB went almost straight after the shot. If I ever run across it I'll letcha know.
Please post a link if and when you find it. Thanks.
Efren is very honest.
An honest GOAT.
Your information about how to detect fouls by the direction the balls roll is invaluable, and I've already had a couple of occasions to use it in league play. But it seems there are some cases involving rails where it really isn't so easy to tell. Here's an SVB/FSR match where the shot was called a foul:
ua-cam.com/video/Ol4kALPznRo/v-deo.html
The cue ball definitely hit the rail first, so at first it looked to me like a "no rail" foul, but being that close to the rail and the angle it hit, but I now agree with JJ that the cue ball likely bounced back against the rail before rolling out onto the table. What do you think?
I analyze that shot in detail in the the following two videos:
ua-cam.com/video/A67uOvTsMA8/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/-Y_6ywIC8rA/v-deo.html
Check them out.
Excellent commentary
Thanks.
WW11, My dad was in the Philippines and he played rotation. 1943
As usual, another great video. I think the ones that upset me most are the double hit fouls. Not just because the refs missed some easy ones, but those are also the easiest for a player to "feel", right? I love SVB but that double hit was really obvious I thought. He had to have known it was a double hit. It would be really cool to see them call a foul on themselves if the ref misses it. I know they want to win, but I think it's the classy thing to do.
I agree with you, but many (if not most) players don't think they should call fouls on themselves.
@DrDaveBilliards In snooker, you will see players calling fouls on themselves all the time, even when there is no suspicion by anyone of a foul.
They usually get a big applause from the audience. It's still considered the thing to do in Snooker.
ua-cam.com/video/SGSRz6usnTI/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/8bqw7CamzIQ/v-deo.html
Can you do a video discussing how cue length affects playing? And how to determine how long your shaft SHOULD be.
See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/length/
on those close jacked up shots, can the cue ball go forward a little bit if it jumps in the air, before the back spin would take?
Yes. I show an example of this in the first section. However, when the gap is small the CB can’t really go forward without a double hit.
Great video.
Thanks!
US Open 9 ball Shane Van Boening didn't call for extension and he was allowed to play on
If you can find the MM:SS time stamp, please post a link. Thanks!
Dr. Dave, do you think there is a performance increase switching from Unilock to Radial? Aka, more power, less effort with a radial vs Unilock
I wouldn't think so, but I haven't tested it.
@@DrDaveBilliards Okay, thanks
@@DrDaveBilliards You have a unilock correct?
@@MagicMikeBilliards Yes, on every cue in my bag.
@@DrDaveBilliards And you have no desire to switch to radial? I’m just debating because I keep thinking there is a performance increase
The jacked up move is an epidemic in pool. It seems like nobody understands the double hit and they all think you automatically get a free pass if you jack up and draw it back after the foul.
Well stated, and so true.
Also. Keith did right thing. Referee already picked up cueball. There is not much you can do then. He said that thing to Efren to show he knew Efren did not foul. Of course he did say that bad way, what is his style... ;)
Well stated.
Good video!
Thanks!
In BCA if the front edge of the cue ball travels past the center of the object ball in it's sitting position, it is a foul.
Did you mean BCAPL? The "BCA" rules are the same as the WPA rules per the info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
The WPA certainly doesn't have such a rule. And I just checked the BCAPL rule book and couldn't find such a rule. Could you let me know where your found this? FYI, links to the official WPA/BCA and BCAPL rule books can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/rule-differences/
@@DrDaveBilliards My book is really old but it is rule #2.20. Judging Double Hits: When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul. Thanks for your videos. Long time viewer.
@@rickcarson9423 That is an old book. They got rid of that “rule” many years ago. I’m glad you like my stuff. Best regards.
@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks DrDave.
It would be nice if you could try to reproduce these bad hits with the slow motion to really show the bad hits.
I have lots of slow motion examples in the videos here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
Jeremy Johns’s vs David alcaide 14:52 time cue ball foul
Thank you. I've added a link to the list in the video description.
@@DrDaveBilliards I don’t see the link
@@gavin26 It is under "Other Bad or Questionable Pro Tournament Calls" in the video description.
Dr. Dave i have a question. What about if the cue ball is frozen to the object ball, the player shoot straight to the object ball and both balls go at the same speed one next to another, is it a foul?? Nobody talks about it, thanks
That is allowed under the WPA official rules of pool. It is not a foul because it is a single hit and the CB separates from the tip normally. For more info, see the videos and explanations here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/frozen/
Here's a possible bad call from an Earl Strickland/Cory Deuel match in 2002 -- Earl sure thought it was a bad call: ua-cam.com/video/wuCjdtKcvao/v-deo.html
The ref called it not a foul, but both commentators thought it was a foul, presumably because the cue ball is driven forward at high speed. However, in the closeup, it looks like the balls are touching, which would make pushing through legal, right? (The commentators didn't mention this nuance.)
That shot was perfectly legal. You are allowed to hit into a frozen CB when the balls are frozen, per the info and demonstrations here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/frozen/
The CB goes forward, but the hit is clean with no "push" or "double hit."
Mario He jumped the 8 ball in the World Cup of pool but slightly grazed it. It was not called. I can’t find the video however!
Please post a link if you can find it.
m.ua-cam.com/video/nht3aFWZGxA/v-deo.html
18:12
@@StarlightRevamp Thank you! I've added it to the list in the video description.
I play people who hit the non-object ball first all the time. Many times I wonder WTF they are thinking since their are other shots. But it's always deny dent deny. AND then on an obvious no way it could be confused shot, they ask somebody to watch as if that "no way you could hit the other ball first" no-foul proves that the obvious foul was not a foul.
I use my smart phone slo-mo video feature when I suspect an opponent might not understand why a shot might be a foul.
@@DrDaveBilliards I've had to resort to the same and was going to mention that
Two points:
Killa, do you find that players acknowledge the rule that if both object balls are contacted simultaneously the shot is not a foul? (Is this rule universal?)
Dr.Dave, have the rules changed to allow video review, especially from one player's camera? Or is this simply an educational suggestion?
@@raygrinders3918 There must be clear evidence that your ball is not hit first. I think it would be very difficult to know if two balls are hit simultaneously or not. To call a foul, I think there must be clear evidence that the wrong ball was struck first.
Concerning video review, I am not aware of any official WPA rule that ever prohibited this. Are you?
@@raygrinders3918 simultaneously IS a foul. IMHO
9:15 Hey Doc, I need to clarify the legality of this shot. If a ball is frozen on a rail, you are allowed to make contact with the object ball first then touching that same rail after contact makes it legal? I thought if a ball is frozen, neither object ball or cue ball can use that rail to be legal. We’ve always played that after making legal contact with the frozen object ball, at least one ball has to touch a rail that is not the frozen rail. This is wrong?
Under the WPA “official rules of pool,” a ball needs to be driven to “any” rail after ball contact. The frozen rail counts. For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks for making the game easier Doc 🤘🏻🙏
To be fair, I doubt many refs would call foul on those jacked up close double hits. There are far more egregious examples of double hit fouls not being called in matches 1990s and 2000s. Great video though, thanks.
I would hope most of today's refs would call a foul when the double hit is clear (based on the motion of the CB) with a jacked-up small-gap shot. I'm glad you liked the video.
@@DrDaveBilliards It's just that they seem to be pretty lenient when judging those shots, if a good faith effort is made to avoid the double hit, and that goes triple for the older matches. Thankfully they don't come up that frequently though. ; )
There is a tournament where Earl is wearing ear muffs and playing mike seigal. Mike's moves a ball with his sleeve that was crazy obvious. Accustat tournament maybe.
If you can find it, please post a link. Thanks.
@@DrDaveBilliards ua-cam.com/video/ALrJKw04MC0/v-deo.html. 20:15 is the foul.
Thanks for posting the link. I've added it to the list in the video description.
Dr dave, you might want to view "the dead ball shot [efren bata reyes]" ctto
ua-cam.com/users/shortsMhHdEu17Ph8
That is a good shot. You are allowed to hit into a frozen ball like this, and the CB goes forward without a double hit. See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/frozen/
I would include it in the list in the video description, but it is not from a refereed match. Thank you for posting it anyway.
Dave, with all due respect, I would not call the VanBoening/Perez shot as a foul, as this one is too close to call a foul, at least from this video, and potentially without slow motion or at least an ideal vantage point. Let me explain my take on the shot. When using left and shooting downward at the object ball(affording him a slight overcut due to spin induced throw and therefore a little extra leeway in avoiding a double hit), the tip can avoid a second hit as the cueball slides ever so slightly out of the way. When doing so, as you explain, the cueball would exit on the tangent line. The reason I see this one as too close to call a foul is because the other ball next to both the cueball and object ball(appears to be the 14 ball) would almost immediately redirect the cueball onto the tangent line off of that ball. Shooting it this way, the cueball would then be going in the direction it did go, and the 14 would go in the direction it did. I am proposing that the cueball wasn't immediately double hit forward, but that it very quickly zig-zagged back into a generally forward direction after the impact off of the 14. Considering this, the issue goes back to if the tip gets out of the way of any secondary contact, and for me it is too close to call bad, so my ruling would go to the shooter. Being the champion that Shane is, I believe he anticipated exactly what ended up happening, and if he suspected that he didn't get the tip out of the way of a double hit, his body language would have reflected his dissapointment with not executing the shot without fouling, as he would not want to violate the rules. I am very curious to hear your take on this, and hopefully my somewhat rushed explanation is relatively clear.
Also, the use of left may or may not been involved in the shot. I am curious if you see any action that is out of line with what I am suggesting. Another possible moment of a double hit(that I also consider too close to call) is the tip hitting the cueball a second time just after the object ball contacts the 14, as that could happen without changing the action of the balls involved in any significantly detectable way, so I would still favor the shooter in regard to that potential action since it all happens so fast and therefore is undiscernable by the naked eye. Thank you for your time if you do read all this, as I value your input, as well as all that you do for the game we all love.
I wish I could include a close-up diagram of the shot and what I'm saying, as I could probably show what I'm talking about better than I can describe it. I have always appreciated the accuracy and clarity of your diagrams, something that most other pool instructional authors have lacked.
I understand your points; but I still think the double-hit foul is clear based on the motion of the CB. As I explain in the video, the CB would not have gone as forward as it did without a double hit since the tangent line into the 14 would have resulted in a fairly square hit. The 14 definitely makes the call tougher, but I still think the call is still clear. That CB went forward a lot. I think a single hit would not have sent the CB forward much (if at all) with the tangent-line direction into the 14 as it was.
@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks for responding and I hear what you're saying. I'm going to play around with the shot next time I get some table time to gain some more perspective. You're my favorite author I've come across when it comes to pool and I've refined my understanding of the physics of the game using your book, your Billiards Digest articles(particularly the ones on the intricacies of squirt and throw), and other resources you've put together. So a sincere thank you for that. It would be cool to hear what Shane would have to say about the shot as well. Take care kind sir!
@@ericbeeler1512 I’m glad to hear it. You’re welcome. I aim to swerve. 😎
More good information from Dr. Dave.
Bottom line the TD has final word. TD’s are human,humans are not perfect.
Thanks. Agreed. Ref or TD's word is final.
Dr Dave what is happening when balls are stick together. How to shoot them and when it's called a foul. That would be a nice vid too
FYI, I have lots of videos and info dealing with this topic here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/frozen/
1:27:45. ua-cam.com/video/bSEUQfrjSNM/v-deo.html
Watch the 8 ball on the break, then watch the rest of the rack. Not a foul, but just goes to show why you watch the table like a hawk. Possibly cost him the match.
Thank you for sharing that. I hadn't seen it before. There must have been a big piece of chalk debris on the table. I added it to the list in the video description just because it is interesting.
What do you mean, "... watch the rest of the rack"? After 7 seconds of rolling balls, you see the 8-ball mysteriously go left-right. Someone else mentioned that it might be the same ball defect that made the 8-ball shot miss (1:30:00), allowing Morris to win the rack. If "him" means Morris' opponent, that's possible, and Morris might have been lucky to have scratched on the break!
Interested to hear your verdict on this situation from the Filler-Styer match from the 2021 Mosconi Cup. I thought this was a bad call since the contact with the 1 ball came before the second rail was hit as can be inferred from the cue ball speed and direction out of the rail.
ua-cam.com/video/bL5uVCur2zw/v-deo.html
Thank you for posting the link. I've added it to the list in the video description. That one is really tough to call from the video. I think the CB hit the rail first and then the 1, with nothing getting to a rail; but you can't call a foul unless the visual evidence is clear. It is possible the CB grazed the 1 on the way to the cushion.
Players need to call their own fouls....
Opponents should also be knowledgeable enough (and use smartphone video when necessary) to catch fouls.
Yet everyone thinks efren is the most composed cool-headed player in the world lol
He is among the best in this regard, but he still misses on occasion (like any human pool player).
Bustamante VS Daryl Peach
9ball combination
Worl 9ball championchip
2007
Thanks. I found it and added the link to the video description.
Was Earl questioning if the ball was frozen to the rail?
I don't think so because the CB obviously hit the rail. He was probably questioning whether or not the CB hit the rail first.
@@DrDaveBilliards I know but if the object ball is frozen to the rail, the cue ball or object ball would have to strike a different rail from the one the ball was frozen to... but it is untelling with Earl. 🤷♂️
@@bradleyburton2664 Under the WPA "official rules of pool," if the CB hits the same rail after hitting the frozen OB, the shot is good.
Ralf Souquet vs Danny Harriman from the 2013 Accustats 14.1 Invitational. I don't know if this would be a bad call.
ua-cam.com/video/hWcLFKyff38/v-deo.html
Thanks for sharing that. I've added it to the list in the video description.
Jayson SHAW vs Joshua FILLER | World Pool Series - ARAMITH OPEN | 9 Ball
ua-cam.com/video/9zjZ6huoC1o/v-deo.html
48:37
Not sure if this was a foul.
Thanks. That shot is good. The CB clearly comes off the tangent line of the 9 (and hits the 6) after hitting the 2. I've added it to the list in the video description anyway.
i thought shane's shot was good, but based on the other angle, the balls are too close..
Hey dr Dave. Another weird one here, but would it be a foul and who is to blame?
In Spain vs Vietnam, World Cup of pool 2018, the red racks the nine ball in the second row and the 3 in the center. You can see it just at the start of this video
m.ua-cam.com/video/LO27l2Jz2w0/v-deo.html
Thanks for sharing the link. That doesn't happen often. FYI, I've added it to the list here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/examples/
ua-cam.com/video/fcdkvmhkSss/v-deo.html
At the 9 minute mark, did he foul?
In any other tournament, this would be a double-hit foul, but the Derby City rules oddly allows a double hit as long as you elevate the cue enough:
derbycityclassic.com/the-rules/
The time stamp is just after Efren plays safe, putting object ball on the rail. But I seem to notice a slight bounce, but unsure. At 0.39 seconds.
Opponent banks directly across to touch the object ball but doesn't subsequently hit a rail with cue ball. The question is I think impossible to judge from the video alone, as we don't know if OB was truly frozen. Unfortunately, neither player payed any close attention to it before the return shot. I recall asked you about this before
ua-cam.com/video/z5K6DtBlkFo/v-deo.html
Thank you for posting this. I've added it to the list in the video description.
Applause to Roger Scott for including this incident (I'm glad I checked before doing so myself)! The cueball hitting a rail (after the "kick") was irrelevant since the question boils down to whether the cueball hit the undeclared-as-frozen orange ball, especially when Efren's shot didn't need to have the orange ball touch the (second) cushion. It was unfortunate that Efren didn't have the orange ball declared, and then he apparently watched the shot from an angle that hid the hit enough that he couldn't easily see any movement of the orange ball. Apparently there was no referee provided, and I still don't know the "legal" application of observers' opinions.
@@DrDaveBilliards : I don't see it in description, but what's your conclusion?
@@rogerscottcathey You need to scroll down to the “Other Bad, Questionable, or Interesting Pro Tournament Calls” section. It looks like a foul to me (with the CB touching the 5, but nothing getting to a rail), but it is difficult to tell from the video.
this takes away shanes credibility on the latest foul or not,he knew this was a foul and didnt call it so as with everything karma always comes back to get you
No we should not give referees slack. Slow motion cams can be the new refs period in any sport. So if something's better. There's no point in paying refs end of discussion.
Slow motion replay is most definitely a useful tool that should be employed, especially on questionable shots. Pretty much every player and ref has a smart phone that provides excellent slo-mo video capability.
@@DrDaveBilliards right or just install cams that can see every point of the table and fire the refs like we should do with umpires and football/basketball.
@@dustincobb5718 In high-profile pool matches, you still need a ref (for reviewing video when necessary, for making judgement calls when necessary, for racking, etc.).
@@DrDaveBilliards not with enough cams/ robotics are coming along nicely a robotic cams could do it. We don't need to pay refs anymore.
Yeah, they actually do a tremendous job, MHO.
And yeah, what Jason was doing there to Strickland was utter crap.
One of the few times I've been on Strickland's side in one of these, but Jason was WAYYY out of line.
It was not remotely his finest moment. I know Jason tends toward the hotheaded side, but that one REALLY didn't do him any favors.
I don't think that "episode" made both of them look bad. FYI, I discuss it some in my "Top 10 WILD and CRAZY POOL SHOTS of All Time" video here:
ua-cam.com/video/JNrBg4mCVAs/v-deo.html
Your obviously a Earl Strickland hater so I'm unsubscribing why dont you go play Earl Strickland then bad mouth him.
I don't hate Earl. On the contrary, I have tremendous respect for his amazing level of play ... and his longevity. I just don't like his occasional bad behavior that makes him and the pool world look bad.
You couldn’t find any videos that were like oh idk not 30 years old
entitlement
I included the classic bad calls since they are well known by people who have been around the sport a while.
If you or others have some other newer bad calls, please post links.
It could also be evidence that Refs and players are now beginning to learn about the technical differentiation of cue ball travel in this circumstances, making “bad calls” far less common.
New subscriber here keep it up! You could easily get more people watching with Promo>SM!!!