Zal and Sebastian are Zal Yanofsky and John Sebastian, later of the Lovin' Spoonful. They were in The Mugwumps together with Cass & Denny of the M&P. McGuinn is Jim/Roger McGuinn of the Byrds, and McGuire is Barry McGuire, who sang Eve Of Destruction.
As a Texan, I grew up hearing a lot of outlaw country as well, and I had to find out if the 'Roger McGuinn had a twelve string guitar' in David Allen Coe's Willie, Waylon, and Me, was the same as the McGuinn in this song.
You ain't shittin. I once blew someone's brains out when the Welcome Back Kotter theme started playing in the supermarket. All the cashiers reached for their smartphones. I was, like, "John Sebastian of the Lovin' Spoonful. Do you remember in TM&TP's Creeque Alley where they talk about "Sol, Denny, and Sebastian sat at The Night Owl? Well, that was John Sebastian, who recovered from Folk Music purgatory to write the best 1970s tv theme song ever." They all looking at my wrist for my i-Watch. Except the one cashier who said "He just stood still for 30 seconds and then started speaking." As appropriate, I said "I drink, and I know things." and walked out.
I think that line was not meant to be taken literally, although there was definitely a double meaning. By "fat" he meant making money, as Cass was the most successful singer of the group early on before they got together.
I believe they already knew about the line because: 1. It's crystal clear in the song. 2. I thought Amber's acting was not very convincing. It was their way to avoid something considered politically incorrect by pretending they didn't hear it. I'd bet money on it.
@shyman99 Amber came across as childish because she didn't understand it and thought she should act offended on mama Kass behalf. She just looked childish.
The line “and no one’s getting fat except for Mama Cass” ends the first three verses. The final verse changes the line to “Everyone’s getting fat except for Mama Cass.” Fat was a slang term that meant loaded with money.
@@josephgilbert3632 It was also meant literally, John had a real issue with Cass Elliot joining their group due to her extreme weight, and that’s a fact.
This IS the history of the Mamas and the Papas. There are about 100 little inside jokes and references and hints in this song, and the more you know about their history, the more the lyrics make sense.
We have to thank Cas for Crosby, Stills, and Nash. Apparent, those three guys met and sang together at a party at Cas’s house. Also, you might like Cas’s cover of the Beatles “I call your name.” It was her love note to John Lennon (oh whom she had a crush).
That is TRULY the only cover of a Beatles song that was done WAY better than the Beatles. And don’t come at me with with a little help from my friends because rings was awesome at it.
It's pronounced Creek. It's basically their life story. They mention Mcguinn and McGuire and Sebastian. McGuinn is Roger McQuinn from the birds. McGuire is Barry Mcguire. Sebastian is John Sebastian from the Lovin Spoonful
That line you misheard was" everyone getting fat, except mama cass" she was sick in that part of their story before making it big with California dreaming
@hankamania back in the day, it was always known on the radio as Creek Alley. It was never pronounced any other way, that I remember. At least in California and Florida, where we lived during that time.
The line "No one's getting fat except Mama Cass" was really about how she was the only one of them that was making a decent living before she joined the group. She was the missing link for the group. She joined, they changed their name, and the rest is history.
Please listen to their sing Twelve Thirty. You can find versions of them singing it live on TV shows, it's such a beautiful and encapsulating song that really shows their harmonies.
Yes. Please listen to 12:30 next. Amazing harmonies and great story. My favorite Mamas & Papas song is whichever one I just listened to Creeque Alley (pronounced creek) or 12:30.
@scottcole6093 oh...that's interesting. I have never heard that...BUT in Once Upon A Time in Mexico, there's a scene with Margot Robbie (who is playing Sharon Tate) and she is dancing to that song while packing!!! Whoa. I wonder if that was a hint at what you are saying....that's fascinating....and eerie.
You could do a music history lecture on this song, with all the various musicians mentioned, plus the various locations. I'll try to summarize it as best I can: John Phillips was in a folk band in the early 60s called The Journeymen (which also included Scott McKenzie, later of If You're Going To San Francisco fame), playing the Greenwich Village clubs in New York City. Cass Elliott, who had a musical theatre background, moved to NYC and fell in with the Greenwich Village scene. Denny Doherty and Zal Yanovsky, two Canadians, also moved to the Village. John then married Michelle (Mitchy), who was from LA and added her to his folk band. Denny, Zal and Cass were part of a folk-rock band called The Mugwumps. Other NYC folkies included John Sebastian, Roger McGuinn and Barry McGuire. The Mugwumps were unsuccessful and split up, and Zal Yanovsky and John Sebastian put together The Lovin' Spoonful, who of course became very big. Denny joined John and Michelle's folk group, which became The New Journeymen. Cass was a frequent hanger-on in their circle, and depending on who's telling the story, she was either trying to join The New Journeymen and John kept resisting, or the others wanted her to join and she was resistant. Meanwhile, Roger McGuinn had moved to LA, started The Byrds and had a hit with Mr. Tambourine Man, and Barry McGuire did likewise and had a hit with Eve Of Destruction. Caught up in the new folk-rock craze, John, Michelle and Denny decided to hang out in the Virgin Islands to work up some material, and were soon followed by Cass. They lived (illegally) off of The New Journeymen's American Express card and managed to get some gigs at a club on a street called Creeque Alley. They then made their way to LA, and through Barry McGuire they were signed to producer Lou Adler's label Dunhill, put out California Dreaming, and it took off. Believe me, this is a VERY condensed version of what happened, but it's all covered in the song.
@@tmr626 "Dedicated to the One I Love" while not my "favorite" of theirs, is one of the most inventive, from a vocal arrangement and song structure point of view, of any song from the 60s.
Absurd. John Phillips put the band together and wrote all the songs. He is the band. Without them, they don't exist and all the others would be known by absolutely no one.
John Phillips originally didn’t want Cass Elliot in the group because he felt like she would ruin their image. He wasn’t so nice to her starting out. She didn’t like being called “Mama Cass.” She was the one in the end that actually made them as successful as they were with her amazing voice.
ever hear the story of her finally getting sort of accepted? Rumor had it that John said she couldn't perform with them because her range wasn't good enough, he thought her voice too low.... supposedly, while "greasin' on American Express cards" down in the Islands, Cass was climbing a ladder, or something, and whacked the daylights out of her head on a pipe in the ceiling and voila, after that, could hit the higher notes. Don't know if that's true or not, it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things... but it's a cool story. Sure beats the later story about John and his daughter Mackenzie!
This song is autobiographical. It's about their early years. They mention members of the Byrds and The Lovin' Spoonful. I think it is pronounced "Creek."
The line you were wondering about is "No one's getting fat except Mama Cass," and then at the end, "Everyone's getting fat except Mama Cass." John Phillips wrote the song, and it is said that he was jealous that Cass always got all the attention and he was often directly mean to her. She claimed not to have been bothered by the line, but who knows if that's what she really felt? In the early seventies, Cass appeared on a lot of TV shows as a comedic actress, since she had a theatre background, and some shows, like the super-popular "Carol Burnett Show," made her weight a subject of the humor in some sketches, doing things like having an earthquake sound effect when she would take steps and things like that.
I even remember, as a kid, watching original scooby doo episodes where Mama Cass would show up and help them solve the mystery. She was always eating grapefruit-a nod to the grapefruit-diet fad that ran many years. Personally, I always hoped she had a good sense of humor about the double meanings in this song, and the critical comments in general-she was really the first of them to really connect in the folk/folk-crossover space at that time, and was EXTREMELY well-respected for her talent and musical taste. Many very early folk/rock festivals might not have happened without her support
There’s a music video for “I Saw Her Again Last Night.” In the video, Cass clearly plays the fool. I got a feeling that John directed her to do so. She went along with the slights and acquiesced to comic relief impositions due to her low self-esteem and desire to go along with the obnoxious professional pressure to go along with the theme rather than object.
❤❤❤❤ when Barry Maguire first met the mamas and Papas he turned us back and listen to them and he said I can’t believe my eyes in my ears, and that was the name of their first album because he couldn’t believe what came out of their mouths were so great❤❤❤❤
Truly this group does not get enough recognition for 4part harmony. Few in the 20th century could compete for those precious couple years they made their magic.
New subscriber here! Discovered you tonight when I was listening to Al Stewart's "Year of the Cat" and saw your video cast on the group. You both are so cute and your responses brought tears of joy. I lived these songs ... am 75 and a grandmother. Then I road with you two on our journey through "Nights in White Satin" . You stopped it before it's official ending, but I so loved your reactions. My sons would not stop to listen with us as their teenage and youthful twenties sent them into their own creative worlds of drumming and guitar-playing in bands that expressed heavy metal raga type sounds we could only tolerate for a few minutes. Broke my music major heart of loving 60's, 70's, and spotty bands through the 80's, 90's, and onward. How darling you are! I enjoy reading the wisdom and knowledge of the other subscribers here, too! Stay real. Am looking forward to your discovery of music that we loved and lived.
The most pleasant reaction folks out there. Always maintaining their enthusiasm. And their knowledge has grown immensely over the last 3 years I've been watching.
In all of the toorah about Cass, people tend to leave out that Michelle Phillips had a very good voice and was very talented herself. She was an "accidental celebrity" though and never was very comfortable in the spotlight during her singing days. She finally got over it and had a fairly good career as an actor
Wrote something similar finally found another comment in the same vein. Michelle was an under-rated driving force in the group, especially since she co-wrote many of their hits.
It's because Michelle's softer voice blended so well with Cass's voice that they almost sounded like one voice. But in the few songs where Michelle had the lead vocal, it was very apparent that she was a talented singer.
Check out "Dedicated to the one I love." One if the few songs Michelle Phillips sang lead on. She has a beautiful voice. Mama Cass grew up in my hometown of Baltimore, MD
FINALLY - A song about the history lesson in early folk/rock music scene in LA & the story of them getting together - all the names in the song are artist that later formed their own groups!! Read & research the lyrics & then go back & listen to this - you will totally understand it so much more!! My fav M&P song!!! Thanks!!!! ps it is CREEK Alley - if you watch the official video - they show all the artist & have a ""family Tree" showing all the groups that were a part of the forming of this group!!!
Okay, let's run down the characters in the song, Zal (Yanoski) and Denny (Doherty) started as a duo. Zal was a guitarist who later joined the Lovin' Spoonful (mentioned later in the song). John (Phillips) and his wife, Michelle (Michi) wanted to get into rock, instead of Folk. (John) Sebastian, with Zal and Denny, started as a folk singer in coffee houses, he and Zal later formed the Lovin' Spoonful. (Roger) McGuinn and (Barry) McGuire, later of the Byrds and the New Christie Minstrels, respectively, didn't hit big until leaving the New York Folk scene for LA. McGuire had a huge solo hit, Eve of Destruction. Creeque (Creak) Alley was where a club in the US Virgin Islands was located. Denny, Michelle, and Jon gigged there, as part of a group called The New Journeymen, before Cass joined them to form The Mamas and the Papas The Duffy, mentioned in the lyric, "Duffy's Good Vibrations", was the club owner, Hugh Duffy.
“Greasin’ on American Express card” is such a cool line to sum up a struggling band before California Dreaming hits a sends them to the big time. Definitely get the lyrics to parse out the folk scene people who made it big.
The last part about the American Express card and "Duffy's good vibrations" refers to when they were living/working in the Virgin Islands, specifically St. Thomas. Back in 2009 when I was visiting there, I went to Duffy's (which is a restaurant), not sure if its still open. If I'm not mistaken, that is where the infamous story about Cass getting accidentally hit in the head with a lead pipe and it suddenly improving her voice came from.
If you have the chance to check out the lyrics, it's so interesting how the story unfolds. It goes so fast, it's easy to miss some things. They drop names of the other bands and artists around the same time that they played with and such, which is quite a musical education.
I had heard a while back that this song dealt with the angst the group had about moving to Los Angeles, there for the line, "and California dreaming is becoming a reality." Great review, as always.
There is SO much folk history in this song along with the group's history... you basically need to dissect the lyrics and then react to each person or the group they were in. You'd get a wonderfully rich education in folk music at the time.... it was like a small community where people would be living in one place, have a falling out or differences of opinion and then go live somewhere else. Each move brought about a new group, or a new sound... it was evolution and revolution all at one time.
Some of the lyrics discuss the folk scene in Los Angeles. McGuinn and McGuire are 12-String Guitarist Jim (Roger) McGuinn of The Byrds, and Barry McGuire, or started playing folk clubs as part of a duo known as Barry and Barri, then had a big hit singing Green, Green with the New Christy Minstrels,, and had his biggest hit with Eve of Destruction in 1965. During 1965, Barry McGuire issued another album that featured The Mamas and the Papas on backing vocals, which included a version of Hang on Sloopy, as well as Hide Your Love Away and Yesterday written by the Beatles. Thus, Creeque Alley is about the folk music scene in LA that produced The Mamas and the Papas, Barry McGuire, The Byrds, and others. Great song!
Love this selection from a group that had such wonderful hits in just 2-3 years. This back story includes names that are familiar to "60's music fans and Amber and Jay, you have heard most or all of them whether you realize it or not. They called themselves The Mugwumps before they changed their name. The line is "Everybody's getting fat except Mama Cass." Recommend hits 12:30 and Dedicated to the One I Love, their cover of the great Shirelles hit.
Very glad you listened to this great song which is also a history of several southern California groups, including the Lovin' Spoonful and McGuinn and McGuire, a partial ancestor of the Byrds
Creeque Alley can be found on the Island of St Thomas in the Caribbean where they stayed for a while when forming up the Mamas & The Papas. I have been there twice and drank a few beers there in their honor at the Pub below where they stayed and where they use to drink. And I will be back again this coming February. Meet me there and I'll buy yall a drink or two....
John was just so tall, and an excellent songwriter. Michelle was just beautiful, the ultimate California girl, Denny had a wonderful voice, and Cass, well, voice, looks, humor, and intelligence. Very few groups did 4 part harmony, and the producer created a great chorus with over-dubbing. Their 20 greatest hits album is marvelous! Love this group - they were together perhaps 2 years, but what a bright expression of the good times of the 60s.
I see they want to throw love at Cass, but I find it very disrespectful to the others. Especially John Phillips who is the leader and songwriter, but gets overlooked just standing there with his guitar. I think these 2 think it's cool to throw love at Cass, but I find it ignorant as they don't understand anything about the band, the music or that time in history.
Years ago, when I fell in love with this song in the 70s, my uncle, who was big on the folk music scene, went through the history of each of them and how each section of the song linked them together.. he would play each musicians 'music and I could see the evolution of their group.. excellent history lesson! 😊
Mama Cass was a big figure behind the scenes in mid sixties LA. Her parties were legendary, and she was directly responsible for the formation of several supergroups, most notably Crosby, Stills, Nash (and sometimes Young). She was the Gertrude Stein of her time, bringing talented people together, just like Stein did at her salon in Paris .
Great, one of my favourite Mamas & Papas songs! Absolutely Cass is the star, fabulous voice. Thanks for doing this & as always, your reaction was great
You guys really loved the sound. You know the Mamas and Papas - they are talking about themselves but the lyrics are referencing so many other legendary artists as well, who were all in the game at the same time - loads of name checking, however at 68 years old this was the soundscape of my young life and in those pre internet days getting the information was harder. It was weekend meet up with friends and sharing your new allowance money music purchases and discussing them after hearing them together. This was how everyone learned about other bands and groups and genres. This and weekly music pop magazines, however money was always tight so the group would try to buy different magazines and those were read and shared around. We never allowed our 45’s or albums out of our hands to ensure they would not be scratched or damaged. I loaned my double Living In The Past by Jethro Tull to a friend and he gave me Creedence Clearwater Revival, Cosmos Bicycle Factory. My friend left the first album on his turntable and the sun streaming through his bedroom window caused the circular disk to heat up and become oval shaped enough that the sound was weird - never again!! 🤣🤣
My favorite M&P song, a brilliant telling of their orgin, and their relationships with other notable folk rock stars like John Sebastián. Another great "autobiography" song is the Beatles' The Ballad of John & Yoko.
I think of Denny Doherty as the lead singer of The Mamas & The Papas (John Phillips wrote the songs). Cass Elliot had an angelic voice, but mostly sang back-up. Deservedly, she came into her own. I wish that she was with us longer.
I pronounced it "creek" and my big sister reprimanded me. It's a place where they hung out, and it is pronounced "creeky". Yes, they did say "fat". In some verses it refers to getting rich, but sometimes it refers to her weight.
Amber, all through the song they've been singing 'No one's gettin' fat 'cept Mama Cass'. At the end they sing 'Everyone's gettin' fat 'cept Mama Cass'.
That's because in the situations in the early parts of the song, Cass was making money and no one else was. At the end, Cass was the only one not making money.
Cass Elliot, a local Baltimore girl was so special. Her voice is so sweet. The group is recounting how there group got popular and who influenced them on the way.
It's fun remembering those early days when folk singers from the Strip were trying to transition from folk into rock ~ they mention "Sebastian" as in John "Sebastian" from the "Loving Spoonful" McGuire as in Barry McGuire & "McGuinn" as in Jim McGuinn from "The Byrds" as well Denny the other Papa besides John Phillips & Michelle
Phillips was worried Cass would be offended by the chorus, so played it to the rest of the band first, who fell about laughing and said Cass would love the song and she did!
According to Wikipedia and John Phillips' interview with Bob Costa's in the 1980s: The title of the song, which does not occur in the lyrics, is derived from Creque or Crequi (pronounced "creaky") Alley, home to a club in the Virgin Islands where John and Michelle Phillips spent time on vacation.
The Mugwamps were Denny Dougherty, Cass Elliot, John Sebastian, and Zal Yanovsky. Denny left to join John and Michelle to form a new group and went to Jamaica, Cass followed later wanting to join and eventually did. John Sebastian and Zal went on to form the Lovin Spoonful
"Midnight Voyage" really shows off Mama Cass' voice! It's also funny because it stops in the middle when John tells Mama Cass "You're late coming in." and she says, "I...was right with you." "and he says, "Sorry, my mistake".
Jay and Amber, did y'all hear me shrieking when I saw this in my notifications? LOL! This is my FAVORITE song of The Mamas & Papas - it's a fun 'story song' that makes me laugh every time I listen to it! 😂
The Mamas & Papas were together for a pretty short period of time but oh boy, did they record some great songs. Cass Elliot was such an amazing singer. Whenever I listen to her, I can't help but wonder about what she would have done if she had not died so young.
Amber - "getting fat" meant something different in the 60s. My parents were baby boomers & huge Mamas and Papas fans. I grew up listening to them and this is what my parents explained to me.
In most verses it says No one's getting fat, but Mama Cass. In one, however, it says Everyone's getting fat, but Mama Cass. Getting fat was a slang phrase for making money/getting rich. However, considering that John didn't like Cass, it probably held a double meaning to both be saying she was making money (which was true) and gaining weight.
Zal and Sebastian are Zal Yanofsky and John Sebastian, later of the Lovin' Spoonful. They were in The Mugwumps together with Cass & Denny of the M&P. McGuinn is Jim/Roger McGuinn of the Byrds, and McGuire is Barry McGuire, who sang Eve Of Destruction.
This☝️✌️
As a Texan, I grew up hearing a lot of outlaw country as well, and I had to find out if the 'Roger McGuinn had a twelve string guitar' in David Allen Coe's Willie, Waylon, and Me, was the same as the McGuinn in this song.
@@jackwells8107He was with The Byrds . He did play a 12 string Rickenbacker
Before the Mugwumps,
Denny and Zal were in a group called The Halifax Three.
Barry McGuire was also the first to record California Dreamin’ even though it was written by John and Michelle Phillips.
It's a history lesson of folk music and the origins of The Mamas and the Papas
and the lovin spoonful.
You ain't shittin. I once blew someone's brains out when the Welcome Back Kotter theme started playing in the supermarket. All the cashiers reached for their smartphones. I was, like, "John Sebastian of the Lovin' Spoonful. Do you remember in TM&TP's Creeque Alley where they talk about "Sol, Denny, and Sebastian sat at The Night Owl? Well, that was John Sebastian, who recovered from Folk Music purgatory to write the best 1970s tv theme song ever."
They all looking at my wrist for my i-Watch. Except the one cashier who said "He just stood still for 30 seconds and then started speaking."
As appropriate, I said "I drink, and I know things." and walked out.
Beautiful voices 😊.
Papa john wrote the music.
Buffalo Springfield
The line started as "No one getting fat except Mama Cass". At the end of the song the line changed to "Everyone getting fat except Mama Cass".
I think that line was not meant to be taken literally, although there was definitely a double meaning. By "fat" he meant making money, as Cass was the most successful singer of the group early on before they got together.
I believe they already knew about the line because:
1. It's crystal clear in the song.
2. I thought Amber's acting was not very convincing.
It was their way to avoid something considered politically incorrect by pretending they didn't hear it. I'd bet money on it.
@@shyman99Agreed. In fact I think Amber was offended by the lyric, which was evidenced by her change in expression.
@@izardkthe folding of the arms for example.
@shyman99 Amber came across as childish because she didn't understand it and thought she should act offended on mama Kass behalf. She just looked childish.
The line “and no one’s getting fat except for Mama Cass” ends the first three verses. The final verse changes the line to “Everyone’s getting fat except for Mama Cass.”
Fat was a slang term that meant loaded with money.
It was because Cass had a bit more success than the others in the early days with the Mugwumps and a couple of other bands she was in.
I always took it literally. Thanks for the bonus info.
@@josephgilbert3632 It was also meant literally, John had a real issue with Cass Elliot joining their group due to her extreme weight, and that’s a fact.
I did not know that.
@@bkm2797 We're gonna need a reference in that. Sorry.
This IS the history of the Mamas and the Papas.
There are about 100 little inside jokes and references and hints in this song, and the more you know about their history, the more the lyrics make sense.
If you love Mama Cass You need to play "Words of Love" or
"Dedicated to the one I love" from the Ed Sullivan show.
We have to thank Cas for Crosby, Stills, and Nash. Apparent, those three guys met and sang together at a party at Cas’s house. Also, you might like Cas’s cover of the Beatles “I call your name.” It was her love note to John Lennon (oh whom she had a crush).
great song right there, i call your name
That is TRULY the only cover of a Beatles song that was done WAY better than the Beatles. And don’t come at me with with a little help from my friends because rings was awesome at it.
It's pronounced Creek. It's basically their life story. They mention Mcguinn and McGuire and Sebastian. McGuinn is Roger McQuinn from the birds. McGuire is Barry Mcguire. Sebastian is John Sebastian from the Lovin Spoonful
That line you misheard was" everyone getting fat, except mama cass" she was sick in that part of their story before making it big with California dreaming
Nope, "Creaky." It was the location of a club in the Virgin Islands they spent time at.
Not being disrespectful, but McGuinn is from the Byrds.
@hankamania back in the day, it was always known on the radio as Creek Alley. It was never pronounced any other way, that I remember. At least in California and Florida, where we lived during that time.
McGuinn was in the US band The Byrds. The Birds were a lesser known English 60s band but did have the Stones Ronnie Wood as a member.
The line "No one's getting fat except Mama Cass" was really about how she was the only one of them that was making a decent living before she joined the group. She was the missing link for the group. She joined, they changed their name, and the rest is history.
Have to do Twelve Thirty (Young Girls Are Coming To The Canyon) by the Mamas & Papas. Some of the best harmonies you will hear!
LOVE that song!
Yes! That's my favorite song of theirs, and I think they'll really dig it!
The lyrics are their history. This song was on the radio often. I love this song. Cass was my favorite.
Please listen to their sing Twelve Thirty. You can find versions of them singing it live on TV shows, it's such a beautiful and encapsulating song that really shows their harmonies.
Twelve Thirty was my favorite song by them.
Yes twelve thirty is a must 👍👍👍❤️
Yes. Please listen to 12:30 next. Amazing harmonies and great story. My favorite Mamas & Papas song is whichever one I just listened to Creeque Alley (pronounced creek) or 12:30.
Wasn’t that the song the cops found playing over and over again at Sharon Tate’s house after everyone was murdered by the Manson family?
@scottcole6093 oh...that's interesting. I have never heard that...BUT in Once Upon A Time in Mexico, there's a scene with Margot Robbie (who is playing Sharon Tate) and she is dancing to that song while packing!!! Whoa. I wonder if that was a hint at what you are saying....that's fascinating....and eerie.
Hooray!! One of my favorites! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! This is the story of the band and friends.
The story of the Mamas and Papas and how they came to be!
"Sebastian" is John Sebastian of the Lovin' Spoonful
You could do a music history lecture on this song, with all the various musicians mentioned, plus the various locations. I'll try to summarize it as best I can:
John Phillips was in a folk band in the early 60s called The Journeymen (which also included Scott McKenzie, later of If You're Going To San Francisco fame), playing the Greenwich Village clubs in New York City. Cass Elliott, who had a musical theatre background, moved to NYC and fell in with the Greenwich Village scene. Denny Doherty and Zal Yanovsky, two Canadians, also moved to the Village. John then married Michelle (Mitchy), who was from LA and added her to his folk band. Denny, Zal and Cass were part of a folk-rock band called The Mugwumps. Other NYC folkies included John Sebastian, Roger McGuinn and Barry McGuire.
The Mugwumps were unsuccessful and split up, and Zal Yanovsky and John Sebastian put together The Lovin' Spoonful, who of course became very big. Denny joined John and Michelle's folk group, which became The New Journeymen. Cass was a frequent hanger-on in their circle, and depending on who's telling the story, she was either trying to join The New Journeymen and John kept resisting, or the others wanted her to join and she was resistant. Meanwhile, Roger McGuinn had moved to LA, started The Byrds and had a hit with Mr. Tambourine Man, and Barry McGuire did likewise and had a hit with Eve Of Destruction.
Caught up in the new folk-rock craze, John, Michelle and Denny decided to hang out in the Virgin Islands to work up some material, and were soon followed by Cass. They lived (illegally) off of The New Journeymen's American Express card and managed to get some gigs at a club on a street called Creeque Alley. They then made their way to LA, and through Barry McGuire they were signed to producer Lou Adler's label Dunhill, put out California Dreaming, and it took off.
Believe me, this is a VERY condensed version of what happened, but it's all covered in the song.
Fantastic! Thank you for taking the time to explain this.
Another Mamas And Papas gem is "Go Where You Wanna Go."
I was thinking the same thing. Jay already described songs as being "chill". "Go Where You Wanna Go" is a nice example of this.
@@tmr626 "Dedicated to the One I Love" while not my "favorite" of theirs, is one of the most inventive, from a vocal arrangement and song structure point of view, of any song from the 60s.
Cass Elliott carried this band in every way. She supported them on her American Express card when they started out, if I am not mistaken.
Absurd.
John Phillips put the band together and wrote all the songs. He is the band. Without them, they don't exist and all the others would be known by absolutely no one.
John Phillips originally didn’t want Cass Elliot in the group because he felt like she would ruin their image. He wasn’t so nice to her starting out. She didn’t like being called “Mama Cass.” She was the one in the end that actually made them as successful as they were with her amazing voice.
ever hear the story of her finally getting sort of accepted? Rumor had it that John said she couldn't perform with them because her range wasn't good enough, he thought her voice too low.... supposedly, while "greasin' on American Express cards" down in the Islands, Cass was climbing a ladder, or something, and whacked the daylights out of her head on a pipe in the ceiling and voila, after that, could hit the higher notes. Don't know if that's true or not, it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things... but it's a cool story. Sure beats the later story about John and his daughter Mackenzie!
They cut out an instrumental piece before the final verse. Some very sweet flute if I remember correctly.
This song is autobiographical. It's about their early years. They mention members of the Byrds and The Lovin' Spoonful. I think it is pronounced "Creek."
The line you were wondering about is "No one's getting fat except Mama Cass," and then at the end, "Everyone's getting fat except Mama Cass." John Phillips wrote the song, and it is said that he was jealous that Cass always got all the attention and he was often directly mean to her. She claimed not to have been bothered by the line, but who knows if that's what she really felt? In the early seventies, Cass appeared on a lot of TV shows as a comedic actress, since she had a theatre background, and some shows, like the super-popular "Carol Burnett Show," made her weight a subject of the humor in some sketches, doing things like having an earthquake sound effect when she would take steps and things like that.
Michelle Phillips did say in an interview, years after Cass died, that the line did bother her. John was an immense talent but also a real turd.
I even remember, as a kid, watching original scooby doo episodes where Mama Cass would show up and help them solve the mystery. She was always eating grapefruit-a nod to the grapefruit-diet fad that ran many years. Personally, I always hoped she had a good sense of humor about the double meanings in this song, and the critical comments in general-she was really the first of them to really connect in the folk/folk-crossover space at that time, and was EXTREMELY well-respected for her talent and musical taste. Many very early folk/rock festivals might not have happened without her support
There’s a music video for “I Saw Her Again Last Night.” In the video, Cass clearly plays the fool. I got a feeling that John directed her to do so. She went along with the slights and acquiesced to comic relief impositions due to her low self-esteem and desire to go along with the obnoxious professional pressure to go along with the theme rather than object.
Getting fat can also refer to getting rich, like the fat cats.
I think you should react to "Words of Love." It is basically a Cass Elliott Solo, but she sang it while she was with the Mamas and the Pappas.
Thanks for playing more from this legendary band, for another do Dedicated to the One I Love. Great time for music, enjoy!
🔥🎵🎸🎤🎤🎤🎤🎸🎶🔥
❤❤❤❤ when Barry Maguire first met the mamas and Papas he turned us back and listen to them and he said I can’t believe my eyes in my ears, and that was the name of their first album because he couldn’t believe what came out of their mouths were so great❤❤❤❤
you can't go wrong with buying their music. all their songs are like this..very enjoyable to listen to.
Truly this group does not get enough recognition for 4part harmony. Few in the 20th century could compete for those precious couple years they made their magic.
New subscriber here! Discovered you tonight when I was listening to Al Stewart's "Year of the Cat" and saw your video cast on the group. You both are so cute and your responses brought tears of joy. I lived these songs ... am 75 and a grandmother.
Then I road with you two on our journey through "Nights in White Satin" . You stopped it before it's official ending, but I so loved your reactions. My sons would not stop to listen with us as their teenage and youthful twenties sent them into their own creative worlds of drumming and guitar-playing in bands that expressed heavy metal raga type sounds we could only tolerate for a few minutes. Broke my music major heart of loving 60's, 70's, and spotty bands through the 80's, 90's, and onward.
How darling you are!
I enjoy reading the wisdom and knowledge of the other subscribers here, too!
Stay real. Am looking forward to your discovery of music that we loved and lived.
That was very touching ❤
The most pleasant reaction folks out there. Always maintaining their enthusiasm. And their knowledge has grown immensely over the last 3 years I've been watching.
In all of the toorah about Cass, people tend to leave out that Michelle Phillips had a very good voice and was very talented herself. She was an "accidental celebrity" though and never was very comfortable in the spotlight during her singing days. She finally got over it and had a fairly good career as an actor
Michelle's the only one still alive at 80.
Wrote something similar finally found another comment in the same vein. Michelle was an under-rated driving force in the group, especially since she co-wrote many of their hits.
It's because Michelle's softer voice blended so well with Cass's voice that they almost sounded like one voice. But in the few songs where Michelle had the lead vocal, it was very apparent that she was a talented singer.
Loved her in Knots Landing, watched it a couple of years ago and it stands up well, Michelle was great in it.
@@SophiaPangloss I had totally forgotten about that show.
Check out "Dedicated to the one I love." One if the few songs Michelle Phillips sang lead on. She has a beautiful voice. Mama Cass grew up in my hometown of Baltimore, MD
Always my favorite Mamas & Papas song. Been listening to it since the 60s.
My favorite Mamas and the Papas song. This song tells the story of them, and some of the other great folk singers of the era.
You have to know the history of the group to fully understand this tune. Well written and crafted tune which is probably why it was suggested.
Love this one by the Mamas and Papas with its humour a great harmonies-Colin Ward
Have you heard Cass sing "Words of Love"? My favorite of hers. For the group as a whole, "Dancin' in the Street". 🤠
Great vid of them singing Dancing In The Street on Ed Sullivan Show
FINALLY - A song about the history lesson in early folk/rock music scene in LA & the story of them getting together - all the names in the song are artist that later formed their own groups!! Read & research the lyrics & then go back & listen to this - you will totally understand it so much more!! My fav M&P song!!! Thanks!!!! ps it is CREEK Alley - if you watch the official video - they show all the artist & have a ""family Tree" showing all the groups that were a part of the forming of this group!!!
Okay, let's run down the characters in the song, Zal (Yanoski) and Denny (Doherty) started as a duo. Zal was a guitarist who later joined the Lovin' Spoonful (mentioned later in the song). John (Phillips) and his wife, Michelle (Michi) wanted to get into rock, instead of Folk. (John) Sebastian, with Zal and Denny, started as a folk singer in coffee houses, he and Zal later formed the Lovin' Spoonful. (Roger) McGuinn and (Barry) McGuire, later of the Byrds and the New Christie Minstrels, respectively, didn't hit big until leaving the New York Folk scene for LA. McGuire had a huge solo hit, Eve of Destruction. Creeque (Creak) Alley was where a club in the US Virgin Islands was located. Denny, Michelle, and Jon gigged there, as part of a group called The New Journeymen, before Cass joined them to form The Mamas and the Papas The Duffy, mentioned in the lyric, "Duffy's Good Vibrations", was the club owner, Hugh Duffy.
The Mamas And The Papas - "Dedicated To The One I Love". Originally done by The 5 Royales in 1957 and covered by The Shirelles and The Temprees.
Interesting, I've always assumed the Shirelle's version was the original. 😊
One of my favorite autobiographical songs! Thanks for that memory, great reaction.
“Greasin’ on American Express card” is such a cool line to sum up a struggling band before California Dreaming hits a sends them to the big time. Definitely get the lyrics to parse out the folk scene people who made it big.
WOOOOHOOOOOOOO!!!! MAMAS & PAPAS!! LOVE IT!! Thanks, Ya'll!! HUGS!
A great story son about their start.
The last part about the American Express card and "Duffy's good vibrations" refers to when they were living/working in the Virgin Islands, specifically St. Thomas. Back in 2009 when I was visiting there, I went to Duffy's (which is a restaurant), not sure if its still open. If I'm not mistaken, that is where the infamous story about Cass getting accidentally hit in the head with a lead pipe and it suddenly improving her voice came from.
This is the story of how the band started!
Mama Michelle was a fav at the time who went on to acting
If you have the chance to check out the lyrics, it's so interesting how the story unfolds. It goes so fast, it's easy to miss some things. They drop names of the other bands and artists around the same time that they played with and such, which is quite a musical education.
I had heard a while back that this song dealt with the angst the group had about moving to Los Angeles, there for the line, "and California dreaming is becoming a reality." Great review, as always.
Ah, Cass! She was one of a kind. Her voice still is one of the best! Thank you two, as always!
There is SO much folk history in this song along with the group's history... you basically need to dissect the lyrics and then react to each person or the group they were in. You'd get a wonderfully rich education in folk music at the time.... it was like a small community where people would be living in one place, have a falling out or differences of opinion and then go live somewhere else. Each move brought about a new group, or a new sound... it was evolution and revolution all at one time.
Mama Cass , Solo, "Dream a little dream of me" ..she was going solo , leaving the drama behind before her death.
Some of the lyrics discuss the folk scene in Los Angeles. McGuinn and McGuire are 12-String Guitarist Jim (Roger) McGuinn of The Byrds, and Barry McGuire, or started playing folk clubs as part of a duo known as Barry and Barri, then had a big hit singing Green, Green with the New Christy Minstrels,, and had his biggest hit with Eve of Destruction in 1965.
During 1965, Barry McGuire issued another album that featured The Mamas and the Papas on backing vocals, which included a version of Hang on Sloopy, as well as Hide Your Love Away and Yesterday written by the Beatles.
Thus, Creeque Alley is about the folk music scene in LA that produced The Mamas and the Papas, Barry McGuire, The Byrds, and others. Great song!
The standout sound of the Mamas and the Papas... is their four voice harmonies.
Love this selection from a group that had such wonderful hits in just 2-3 years. This back story includes names that are familiar to "60's music fans and Amber and Jay, you have heard most or all of them whether you realize it or not. They called themselves The Mugwumps before they changed their name. The line is "Everybody's getting fat except Mama Cass." Recommend hits 12:30 and Dedicated to the One I Love, their cover of the great Shirelles hit.
Very glad you listened to this great song which is also a history of several southern California groups, including the Lovin' Spoonful and McGuinn and McGuire, a partial ancestor of the Byrds
Amber, your hair looks amazing.
Creeque Alley can be found on the Island of St Thomas in the Caribbean where they stayed for a while when forming up the Mamas & The Papas. I have been there twice and drank a few beers there in their honor at the Pub below where they stayed and where they use to drink. And I will be back again this coming February. Meet me there and I'll buy yall a drink or two....
I am so glad you did this. That four part harmony, since i was 9 yrs old til now gives me goosebumps. When its good, its good. Thats all u hafta know.
John was just so tall, and an excellent songwriter. Michelle was just beautiful, the ultimate California girl, Denny had a wonderful voice, and Cass, well, voice, looks, humor, and intelligence. Very few groups did 4 part harmony, and the producer created a great chorus with over-dubbing. Their 20 greatest hits album is marvelous! Love this group - they were together perhaps 2 years, but what a bright expression of the good times of the 60s.
I see they want to throw love at Cass, but I find it very disrespectful to the others. Especially John Phillips who is the leader and songwriter, but gets overlooked just standing there with his guitar. I think these 2 think it's cool to throw love at Cass, but I find it ignorant as they don't understand anything about the band, the music or that time in history.
Years ago, when I fell in love with this song in the 70s, my uncle, who was big on the folk music scene, went through the history of each of them and how each section of the song linked them together.. he would play each musicians 'music and I could see the evolution of their group.. excellent history lesson! 😊
This entire song is a history lesson about the beginnings of a lot of great acts. Including The Byrds and The Lovin's Spoonful
Mama Cass was a big figure behind the scenes in mid sixties LA. Her parties were legendary, and she was directly responsible for the formation of several supergroups, most notably Crosby, Stills, Nash (and sometimes Young). She was the Gertrude Stein of her time, bringing talented people together, just like Stein did at her salon in Paris .
Their harmonies on "My Girl" are perfect.
The phenomenal harmonies of The Mamas & The Papas -- one of my favorite songs by them!
Great, one of my favourite Mamas & Papas songs! Absolutely Cass is the star, fabulous voice. Thanks for doing this & as always, your reaction was great
More sunshine pop. Gotta love it!
You guys really loved the sound. You know the Mamas and Papas - they are talking about themselves but the lyrics are referencing so many other legendary artists as well, who were all in the game at the same time - loads of name checking, however at 68 years old this was the soundscape of my young life and in those pre internet days getting the information was harder. It was weekend meet up with friends and sharing your new allowance money music purchases and discussing them after hearing them together. This was how everyone learned about other bands and groups and genres. This and weekly music pop magazines, however money was always tight so the group would try to buy different magazines and those were read and shared around. We never allowed our 45’s or albums out of our hands to ensure they would not be scratched or damaged. I loaned my double Living In The Past by Jethro Tull to a friend and he gave me Creedence Clearwater Revival, Cosmos Bicycle Factory. My friend left the first album on his turntable and the sun streaming through his bedroom window caused the circular disk to heat up and become oval shaped enough that the sound was weird - never again!! 🤣🤣
My Favorite Song Of The Mamas & The Papas, Great Reaction Everyone
They had some of the best harmonies you’ll ever hear!
a chronology of the early rock scene, what a great era!
My favorite M&P song, a brilliant telling of their orgin, and their relationships with other notable folk rock stars like John Sebastián.
Another great "autobiography" song is the Beatles' The Ballad of John & Yoko.
I think of Denny Doherty as the lead singer of The Mamas & The Papas (John Phillips wrote the songs). Cass Elliot had an angelic voice, but mostly sang back-up. Deservedly, she came into her own. I wish that she was with us longer.
Dedicated to the One I Love highlights the lovely voice of Michelle Philips. One of my favorites.
I pronounced it "creek" and my big sister reprimanded me. It's a place where they hung out, and it is pronounced "creeky".
Yes, they did say "fat". In some verses it refers to getting rich, but sometimes it refers to her weight.
Amber, all through the song they've been singing 'No one's gettin' fat 'cept Mama Cass'. At the end they sing 'Everyone's gettin' fat 'cept Mama Cass'.
That's because in the situations in the early parts of the song, Cass was making money and no one else was. At the end, Cass was the only one not making money.
Twelve Thirty is another good one.
Cass Elliot, a local Baltimore girl was so special. Her voice is so sweet. The group is recounting how there group got popular and who influenced them on the way.
"New Day Coming" is one of Cass Elliott's most underrated singles. It's short but shows off her powerful voice.
My mom and dad had a single of this when I was growing up. I played it all the time. Loved it.
It's fun remembering those early days when folk singers from the Strip were trying to transition from folk into rock ~ they mention "Sebastian" as in John "Sebastian" from the "Loving Spoonful" McGuire as in Barry McGuire & "McGuinn" as in Jim McGuinn from "The Byrds" as well Denny the other Papa besides John Phillips & Michelle
No one ever said "Mama Michelle." Yet she was just as much a part of the group and had her name in this song.
Oh wow, I was thinking about this song the other day and didn't think you had reacted to it. Awesome!
They were heavily into the harmonies and in that sense Cass had the voice that the others played off of🎶🎶🎶
"I Saw her Again Last Night" features Denny Doherty on lead. Great song about his affair with Michelle.
Phillips was worried Cass would be offended by the chorus, so played it to the rest of the band first, who fell about laughing and said Cass would love the song and she did!
According to Wikipedia and John Phillips' interview with Bob Costa's in the 1980s:
The title of the song, which does not occur in the lyrics, is derived from Creque or Crequi (pronounced "creaky") Alley, home to a club in the Virgin Islands where John and Michelle Phillips spent time on vacation.
The Mugwumps was a group some of them were in before they formed.
The Mugwamps were Denny Dougherty, Cass Elliot, John Sebastian, and Zal Yanovsky. Denny left to join John and Michelle to form a new group and went to Jamaica, Cass followed later wanting to join and eventually did. John Sebastian and Zal went on to form the Lovin Spoonful
"@@michaellockhart554'Denny left to join John and Michelle to form a new group and went to Jamaica'."
It was the Virgin Islands, NOT Jamaica.
@@meyerhave ok, I knew it was one or the other, thanks
She was also such a good sport.She can Sing about herself and not get insulted
"Midnight Voyage" really shows off Mama Cass' voice! It's also funny because it stops in the middle when John tells Mama Cass "You're late coming in." and she says, "I...was right with you." "and he says, "Sorry, my mistake".
Jay and Amber, did y'all hear me shrieking when I saw this in my notifications? LOL! This is my FAVORITE song of The Mamas & Papas - it's a fun 'story song' that makes me laugh every time I listen to it! 😂
Have some fun and google all the names and places they mention. It's a history of 60s rock, and a good read!
The Mamas & Papas were together for a pretty short period of time but oh boy, did they record some great songs. Cass Elliot was such an amazing singer. Whenever I listen to her, I can't help but wonder about what she would have done if she had not died so young.
Every time I hear this fantastic song it gets stuck in my head for a week. I'm holding youy guys responsible!
Amber - "getting fat" meant something different in the 60s. My parents were baby boomers & huge Mamas and Papas fans. I grew up listening to them and this is what my parents explained to me.
all time classic! ♥
this is one band who could stand as a symbol for the 1960's. Another is the great 5th Dimension.
In most verses it says No one's getting fat, but Mama Cass. In one, however, it says Everyone's getting fat, but Mama Cass. Getting fat was a slang phrase for making money/getting rich. However, considering that John didn't like Cass, it probably held a double meaning to both be saying she was making money (which was true) and gaining weight.
Hence the term being in “fat city” which means being very prosperous or having good fortune. But yes John could have meant it both ways
Nice, great to hear this song again. Was all over the radio back in the day..😎🍺☮️
My second favorite Mamas and Papas song. My dad used to play this one all the time when I was little. He still has that album. 🙂
My favorite Mamas and Papas song.