The one thing that flies over a lot of people's heads is that even tho metalcore came from metal, its different iterations throughout the years have strayed further and further from the foundations and tropes of "old" metal. Theres people who like both things but there's been a divide. 10 years ago, the discourse was "metalcore's not real metal", and now its become "is metalcore even metal at this point?". I wouldnt care about this if both styles werent cornering themselves. Modern metal wants to keep catering towards the lowest common denominator and become as viral and mainstream as possible while old school metal is becoming a parody of itself. Im being a bit harsh but you get the point.
I think that the fact that modern metal (which i tend to point in the direction of metalcore, djent and stuff as that) has the tendency to forget the roots of where it came from, the fact that they point at "old metalheads" and scream they dont accept us but themselves need to play in a "penis size comparison " " check my band being more technical then yours, loser" type of thing shows how much difference there is between Metal and Core. I played in a core band and we where jokingly compared to a band like"a bad version of Parkway drive " and my death metal band has been given praise even tho the music was (ill be very blatantly honest) pure shit, shows why some bands strayed from the core scene and went more into the metal scene, like for example Avenged, Trivium and Bullet, they understood how toxic the core scene is. (Except for old hardcore punk dudes, they kick ass)
originally metalcore was "metallic hardcore", it came from hardcore, not metal. it's the second wave aka "melodic metalcore" inspired by Slaughter of the Soul album, which is closer to metal than core.
I would disagree that old school metal has become a parody of itself, some of the original bands maybe but modern metal doesn’t just equate to metal core. High on fire, Conan, slomatics, Kylesa, Elder just a few current bands that are flying the old school flag in the best ways. And they don’t sound like they’re just copying each other and using the exact same production techniques. They’re making genuinely dynamic modern music.
Morons arguing about the 10 millions different sub genres of metal is the single most annoying thing about metal. I've also noticed it tends to be people who can't play any instrument that become "experts" on genres. Anyway who cares it all just metal.
@@mach2223 For me pop is every genre thats not traditional folklore, jazz, classic or experimental in a sense of electroacoustic. So Hip-Hop=Pop, Metalcore=Pop and yes even Black Metal=Pop. It's all U Musik (Unterhaltungs Musik) which translates to entertainment music.
There is no such thing as a pop listener. Nobody goes out to buy pop cds or generally gives a shit about the future of pop music. It's just normie slop that gets put on the radio and people just never question it.
@@georgdreck3202 Nah. Pop is the derived form of Rock & Roll, and it came around the 1950s. So, I would rather the say in most of the cases, the fluid genre is the Rock & Roll (1940s).
I completely agree with your take away Beanly. Musically metalcore is definitely metal, but culturally for the past 20 years the divide has grown pretty severe. The metalcore people associate and listen mostly among the core branch, and while they may agree with a traditional metalhead on a couple of bands they like, they rarely intersect with traditional metalhead both culturally and musically.
Isn't it just distinctive sub-culture then? I can't see it as totally different genre either when it musically isn't. Also lot of metalcore fans do identify metalcore as metal (way more than as hardcore). I'm not sure if this is different in other countries but where I¨m from pretty much all metalcore kids just go with the term metalhead and metalcore bands are in metal festivals, not punk nor hardcore festivals (and metalcore doesn't have their own festivals here).
In more simple words: Boomer grandpas that are still stuck in the past are confused why the younger generation of today favors more modern metal over the old grandpa rock from the past. The reason for this is very obvious and simple: Modern metal (like Metalcore) is much more diverse and more dynamic which makes it overall more interesring. Modern Meral is much more intenaive in all aspects: it's heavier, more groovy, more energetic, more aggressive, more rhytmically diverse, while at the same time it's also more melodic and more emotional as well. This makes modern Metal (especially *Melodic Metalcore* but also *Nu-Metal* and *Symphonic Metal)* superior compared to old boomer rock, since it has much more of all traits combined
@@Toxyethanol "Metal is in the name, it might be more metal because its the core of it" By this logic seahorses are in fact horses and wolf spiders are wolves. Anyone can slap the word metal on to a music genre and proclaim it metal, that doesn't make it metal. If I said the M in the Electronic Dance Music stood for metal instead, while the music sounds exactly like EDM does today would that make it metal? No, of course it wouldn't.
The thing that makes it complex is that a lot of genres take influence from a way broader spectrum than before since the early to mid 2010s, metalcore has very much so taken that on, while other parts of metal haven't
@@eliteextremophile8895 id argue a genre starts and ends around a certain timeframe and has a certain structure that gives it its signature feeling and that it must be followed like a recipe to remain original, things do change for better and worse imo genres are like living things that need to be kept up or they whither away like classical music or get bastardized like rap
I think the Bad Omens/BMTH type of Metalcore is just today's version of what Nu Metal was in its prime. Using heavy sounds to pull off Pop formulas of the time. Pop Metal basically, but imo still Metal. Looking back at Nu Metal today, most of it can much easier be seen as _within_ the broader Metal category than it seemed back then. So I think that applies to modern softer Metalcore as well.
@@theoneandonly7019 sure it is, almost doesnt appear much of the metalcore in it, but still has breakdowns, some screams (V.A.N with poppy) and other metalcore stuff, sleep token we almost doesnt see the metal in it, but still, it is labeled as metalcore...
That's the problem with subculture appropriation. It changed the definition til the definition no longer is relevant. Gate keep harder or your scene will turn into pop trash. Fight for your lives
As a core kid I appreciate the support of the early 2000s bands like KSE, A7X, Trivium & As I Lay Dying. What the genre morphed into later I couldnt get behind, so I've circled back to thrash & death metal
Depends where you draw lines. Some people would only define metal as the metal of the 70s/80s. Do you think Nu-metal is metal? Like Limp Bizkit, linkin park and Slipknot? I’d say so, what about old Metalcore like Avenged Sevenfold? They’re pretty metal to me. Draw the line where you see fit, it all changes depending on who you ask. I believe the new metalcore like BMTH, Architects and even Dayseeker or I Prevail is still metal. Metal is very versatile and within metal there are many sub-genres that come from the same place. Even metalcore is very diverse and broad.
I think the defining part is what influenced their music most. I'd say avenged sevenfold is more on the metal side as Hatebreed is more on the core side of things, i tend to put everything with a shit load of groove into the core genre, i would even say pantera sounds and feels more like a hardcore band than a metal band some times
To me it's interesting because I remember metalheads in my youth (the 80s) being pretty open minded but growing more tribal as the decade progressed. Hair metal ruled the world then but eventually Metallica (who doesn't get enough credit for ending hair metal's reign, it's generally given to Nirvana and grunge instead) won out and that's when there started being a lot more line drawing, a lot more "this is true metal" (or trve as our Norwegian friends would say) and "that's false metal". If you go to Encyclopedia Metallum you won't find Kittie. Why not? What the heck are they if not metal? (Not saying they're good metal or bad metal, just that they're an example of someone being kept out of the club by gatekeepers.)
I think you need to look more at the culture of the music than the sonic characteristics. If all we cared about was how it sounded, we could easily argue that hardcore is also metal just because it has heavy guitars and angry vocals. If you look at the culture around metalcore, it is highly detached from metal. Different influences, different ethos, different style, different fans etc. Why do we perceive grunge as it's own genre despite it taking obvious influences from other rock genres? It's because of it's cultural significance. It's a self-sustaining movement. In my mind, there's a pretty clear distinction in culture between metal and it's subgenres, and metalcore with its own subgenres.
@@JHAN1212 That's precisely it. Metal was a lifestyle in the '80s. And it was nothing like Nu Metal or Hardcore or whatever kids find edgy these days. You can't just buy a distortion pedal and call yourself metal.
The metalcore debate should’ve been settled in the mid-2000s. If it is part metal, it’s metal. If being descended from hardcore disqualifies metalcore from being metal, why aren’t we having that discussion about thrash or groove metal. I also don’t like Attack Attack and many of the so-called “mallcore” bands. Doesn’t make them any less metal. Just because I don’t like an artist or a sub-genre it doesn’t mean I can gatekeep them out of the metal genre.
@ayeb0ss id argue the real conversation starts with the fact that music evolves and has defined structure, meaning there's a typical timeframe certain genres were created before and after their peaks being influenced by many things other than itself and the "real" genre exists somewhere in the middle. Most people would agree there are bands that pioneer and influence everyone around them to create new things that dont fit the structure previously defined making something new. my opinion is that folk metal isnt metal its a new genre of folk sense it derives its song structure from folk and pulls instruments from metal.
I can't stand nu-metal, it sounds like radio friendly dad rock to me, but it's unequivocally metal. I understand why people don't like metalcore/deathcore, (it's all I listen to these days) but it doesn't disqualify it as metal. A hardcore/punk pedigree doesn't change the fact that it's death metal riffs, heavy distortion, ambient synths etc. It's a progressive genre, but it's clewrly metal.
Attack Attack don't deserve this much hate, they are actually greatly underestimated. Only their first album from 2008 was very cringe i agree on that because the EDM parts ruined it. But after that they learned from the critics and completely changed their style completely and even the singer (vocals) was a different dude in the following second and third albums in 2010 and 2012. So they were not even the same band anymore after they changed their style and sound in the 2nd and 3rd Album in 2010 and 2012. their next 2 follwing records were actually very dope and powerful with more Metal elements and no cringe EDM parts anymore Most people only judge their 1st album from 2008 and don't give them any credit for their efforts to change after that, at least they did take the critics serious and learned form it and this alone should deserve more respect. But what is funnny is that while Attack Attack changed their own style completely, many other people got influenced by their first album and jumped on this train and continued this path of using EDM parts but in a better (and less cringey) way. Some better examples are: *_Abandon All Ships, Make Me Famous, Capture The Crown, Scream Your Name_* and a few others...
@@RockandMetal-u9x not even hating on them, just saying I didn’t like them back in the day with the whole crabcore EDM thing. But me not liking them doesn’t make it “not metal.”
@@luistijerina the Crabcore thing is actually very hilarious and cool, it basically makes fun of and mocks all the wannabe though guys who take themsleves too serious. So all the people who have a problem with that are exactly the type of guys who take themselves too serious 😂 (NO FUN ALLOWED) 😠😡 And like I already said they got completely rid of the EDM parts after their first album, so at least the other 2 following album records were nuch better and closer to the original roots of metallic hardcore again (instead other bands continued the electornicore trend but in a better way and less cringey)
Metal derives from older genres of music too, i like that metal became a larger umbrella that can hosts a variety of genres and subgenres, and also....who cares? mixing it up is how you create new stuff imo
In the past we had "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" Today we have "Is metalcore metal?" Anyway I'm old enough to remember when the term metalcore was first coined in the 80s to describe what we now define as crossover. Around the same time Slayer was called death metal because of their subject matter and musical intensity which was unmatched, even though stuff we know call death metal was also around before that genre really crystalized. Time has a way of taking these phrases and making them mean something else.
You actually hit the nail on the head with the fact that the subcultures between traditional metal fans and core fans often have very little overlap. The metal fans I know in my area are predominantly metalcore fans and when they talk about new "metal" releases, it's like they're in a totally different world than the one I'm in. They'd be talking about bands like Bring Me the Horizon, Motionless in White and Slaughter to Prevail. But they don't always tend to be fans of other modern bands who fall more within "traditional" metal subgenres. Like Blood Incantation for death metal, Mgła for black metal, Vektor for thrash... you get the point. And you can usually still put fans of death, black, thrash and power metal together and they can connect and find some common ground. But it so often feels like metalcore is like an entirely different subculture.
almost like people will gravitate towards the sound that they like which is the entire point of a subgenre that doesn't mean there are any less metal than the other I don't see a lot of overlap between power metal and Nu metal does that mean either one of those isn't metal
I like plenty of metalcore, honestly I feel like metalcore sounds closer to most of the metal I listen to than, for example, black metal. Personally I listen to metalcore a lot more than black, death or many other types of metal...but it's mainly thrash, prog, groove, funk, nu and the old school stuff for me. Metal is just too diverse to be one genre, that's really what I think this comes down to. My issue with metalcore though, is one of the main points in the video - most current listeners of it seem to have no interest in other metal, their Spotify most-played will be BTMH, Asking Alexandria and a bunch of pop artists. Admittedly, Spotify thinks my most-played songs of 2023 includes at least 1 song that definitely isn't on any playlist I listened to in 2023 and nobody else has any form of access to my account, while songs from an album I had on repeat for most of December aren't even on there, so perhaps those people love all forms of metal and Spotify is just stupid...
I disagree. I know a lot of people who mainly listen to core but also like Nu, thrash, death, black and even old school metal. You can argue the same for many black metal fans who only listen to black metal. And maybe death metal occasionally. The people you are talking about are people who listen to mainstream music and metalcore, having elements of said music is the subgenre these people will most likely listen to.
@@Goteiii You're not wrong, but it's a similar argument to "German cars are reliable because I have a German car that hasn't broken" - the sample size isn't sufficient to provide the full picture (German cars, statistically, aren't especially reliable). In this case of course, I also don't have the sample size - so it's possible that we're both entirely right. I think my point still stands though - the target audience of metalcore isn't really metalheads these days, the culture around the genre is more the pop crowd. Edited cos I accidentally hit ctrl & enter while typing...new keyboard & fat fingers 😄
I'd say All That Remains, As I Lay Dying, August Burns Red (on Constellations and forward) and early Parkway Drive are also firmly rooted in metal. Anything from the 2010s onwards is its own thing imo (some of which I rly enjoy, some of it not so much).
You know the singer of ALl that Remains was in Shadows Fall first? I gigged with them and Shadows Fall on tour togther before Overcast broke up and Brian joined SF, All That Remains started later, and Mike was a fan of ours and influenced Killswitch Engage, we were doing power ballad parts in Hardcore in 97 SInce The Fall Reading PA, our FUllength is fan uploaded 1999 I knew almost all these people, Took Unearth on their first mini-tour, played early pre Relapse gigs with Dillinger Escape plan. Almost singed to Eulogy with Unearth bit disbanded due to Skinhead riots
We went with metalcore from hardcore punk with metal, then melodic death combined with Iron Maiden duals and early metalcore. Now I feel like most modern metalcore is just Meshuggah + breakdowns + random genres and that's how we have Spitibox, current BMTH or Sleep Token. I feel like now metalcore is its own thing that is even bigger than whole modern metal scene. And at the same time it's still part of whole metal world.
Agreed that they're two different things, although unlike many commenters below not in a gatekeepy "that's not REAL metal!!!" way (which is real cringe btw). Modern metalcore is so different from both old-school metal and hardcore that it's an entire genre in its own right now rather than a sub-genre of either of those. There's a lot of really innovative and interesting bands in the scene though like Loathe, Periphery and (to an extent) Spiritbox who keep pushing it further in that direction too
I still feel like metalcore is made up of metal and core and is both, newer bands bring in more influences from other genres but the base of their sound is still a mix of metal and core, if it wasn't then it would no longer be metalcore. I agree the difference in sound between modern metalcore and heavy metal is big but I'm not really sure I'd say it's much bigger than the difference between heavy metal and stuff like grindcore/goregrind/brutal death/suicidal black or between speed/power metal and funeral doom all of them are still metal despite sounding so different, each sub genre has metal at the base of their sound then evolves in its own way but it will continue to be metal until it's no longer the base of their sound. I don't really see how metalcore could be different enough from metal to no longer be a sub genre of metal when metal isn't even its own thing it's still a sub genre of rock.
From what I've heard of Periphery, they have some good riffs, as someone who appreciates a bit of Djent, but I absolutely can't get past those scene vocals
10:26 - I feel _exactly_ the same way. I love Nik Nocturnal's channel, for example, and I watch him a lot, but whenever it comes to bands, specific references and sometimes even specific terms, I feel completely out of the conversation. In that sense, I would have to agree that metalcore has departed enough from traditional metal that it stopped being a subgenre and has become a genre unto its own.
Saying Metalcore isn't Metal is the same as saying Symphonic Metal, Folk Metal or Industrial Metal isn't Metal. Just because Metalcore has pop elements doesn't mean it's not as Metal as subgenres that incorporate violins, flutes or a freaking jackhammer noise sample. In fact Metalcore usually is heavier than any of these 3 other genres I mentioned. It has heavy riffs (often also very technical), screaming, growling, breakdowns etc. Even more so if it's Deathcore. Meanwhile bands like Nightwish often play really soft music with piano, bag pipes and sometimes acoustic guitars yet they're considered Metal. And I'm a huge Nightwish fan myself so I certainly see them as a Metalband as well. Anything that has a drum kit, a bass guitar and most important of all low tuned electric guitars is Metal in my books. Just because you don't like a certain subgerne doesn't make it any less Metal.
does metalcore by defintion have pop elements though? isn't that just certain bands? there is a lot of SUPER heavy metalcore with no pop elements at all imo. Bands like Sanction, Integrity, Gulch, Integrity, Burnt by the Sun, Knocked Loose, Candy, Snapcase, Vein.fm etc etc I see the hardcore punk and I see the metal elements but where is the pop in most of those bands lol
The thing about metalcore is that its become so diverse that its barely even a subgenre per sè, its pretty much its own genre born from metal and hardcore, with some bands leaning more towards one or the other. For example BFMV, Trivium and Killswitch definitely lean more into metal, then you have bands like Knocked Loose, And Kublai Khan TX which are somehow considered metalcore that are more grounded in hardcore. Its a case by case basis.
BFMV/KSE/Trivium are the holy trinity for me, best metalcore bands especially The Poison/Daylight Dies/Ascendancy All That Remains' Six is also up there
BFMV/Trivium early stuffs feels like metal with a fair amount of pop-ification on the production side to give it more mainstream appeal, like a early-2000s version of Black Album/Youthanasia, which is even more apparent with their next releases. The core elements is mainly the screaming and breakdown, but the guitar work is a lot more complex than something like A7X's Waking the Fallen, which is just a lot of simple power chords (they really upped the guitar work for City of Evil). But at the same time, A7X's Waking the Fallen is a lot more raw and lack the "poppy" production of the later bands
@@shadowcrimson6232daylight dies is metalcore? I always thought they were death doom especially with their sound being very reminiscent of katatonia's early works
I don't understand how anyone can listen to the awesomeness of As I Lay Dying, I Killed the Prom Queen, Parkway Drive, Bleeding Through, Darkest Hour, etc., and say "hur dur tHaT's nOt mEtAl!"
Iunno, I consider Metalcore Metal. I do appreciate what Bradley said about it feeling like a different culture when talking to core-kids, but personally that's not enough for me to say it's outside the broader Metal umbrella. Like, you could probably make the same argument if you were in a room full of Black Metal fans; you (well, me, anyway) wouldn't be able to relate to them either but that doesn't mean Black Metal isn't Metal. I'll throw on some Judas Priest or Insomnium next to Spiritbox or Monuments or even Dance Gavin Dance and still consider it all the same thing. DGD might be a stretch for some. I guess: if it's Metal-adjacent then it's Metal.
"Like, you could probably make the same argument if you were in a room full of Black Metal fans" This doesn't hold true though, its easy for people who are into other metal subgenres to discuss crossover bands with black metal fans for example: Death metal fans could discuss: Archgoat, Blasphemy, Behemoth, Necrophobic Doom metal fans could discuss: Katatonia, Bethlehem, Nortt Heavy metal fans could discuss: Venom, Mercyful Fate, Hellripper Thrash metal fans could discuss: Bathory, Sodom, Destruction, Celtic Frost, Sarcofago What are metalcore fans going to discuss? Lorna Shore? They'd be laughed out of the room.
@@primordialserpent1763yeah with them only being the main "blackened metalcore band" to be well-recognised its difficult which is why I always advocate to share and expose more niche Metalcore bands who crosses other Metal genres who do deserve attention. For more Blackened Metalcore I could talk about TELOS, Cult Leader, Oathbreaker. There are bands that blend other Metal subgenres but most of the best and purest examples tend to be very VERY underground
There's so much blackened- bands. Now I wonder if there's any blackened metalcore or deathcore. Because it seems like every metal subgenres has some bands that mix black metal with another genre.
Also, as a massive fan of metalcore growing up, I'm now very much into bands with classical death metal elements such as ObscurA and Decapitated, so crossover does happen 🤷♂
The whole spectrum of metalcore/post-hardcore is so broad. To find bands in these genre that I really enjoy I often have to look into more specific subgenres like mathcore (Converge, Botch, early Dillinger and Cave In) or whatever the thing The Fall of Troy and Dance Gavin Dance do is. That early primitive caveman metalcore is cool too.
I love core, am definitely a core kid although I thoroughly enjoy early speed metal, heavy metal, proto metal as well, or Stoner metal, death metal in general, thrash,black metal, and pretty much all metal. I do agree that core and metal are quite a bit different, I think so in sound as well, but can also hear the familiarities
God I could listen to this man's analysis videos on music for ever. Omg. He's so good and his points and his criticisms and his overall just appreciation for music is so just spot on.
I mean, it's still unquestionably metal. I don't know how many people really like all styles of metal, usually we pick a few that we like and stick to that. You can't just kick out an entire subgenre of metal because there isn't a lot of crossover between the fandoms. I would imagine the same thing happens in all types of music, where some styles of hip hop or electronic or jazz have split off into a different sound and they have their own fanbases, but are absolutely still part of the family. There's also 2 sides to metalcore, we can't forget about the hardcore side of it. Hardcore came from a mixture of punk and metal, so metalcore would be like 75% metal, right? All that's happened is that subgenres have been created within the subgenre of metalcore, which is a natural progression. We now have a spectrum of bands ranging from the pop-oriented on one end, all the way to the heaviest riff salad and breakdowns style on the other end. It just be that way.
Couldn't agree more. As Metal as a genre is diverging and developing, the broad spectrum of Metal adjacent bands is growing. Lately there are new up and coming bands in the realm of either melodic metal (i.e. Electric Callboy, Smash Into Pieces) or nu-nu-metal (i.e. Falling in Reverse). I personally like all of those, yet still rooted in my favorites Melodeth/Thrash/Traditional Metal. Broadening and bending metal as a genre produces more opportunities for new fans to prefer heavy music over others. And that keeps metal alive.
@@guyr.6053 Right, like I mostly follow metalcore/deathcore, and I prefer the late 2000's riff salad and breakdowns style that I mentioned. Chelsea Grin, After the Burial, Within The Ruins, and old stuff from Veil of Maya, Born of Osirs, and August Burns Red, that's my kind of thing and I don't really go far beyond that. I used to listen to Iron Maiden and 3 Inches of Blood and stuff when I was younger, and then I joined a band in high school and they were playing metalcore so I got into that. Protest the Hero is also probably my favourite band, but that's kind of an outlier for my metal preferences. Other than that I listen to stuff outside of metal, J-Pop being my main music source for the past number of years. I just had Niji No Conquistador on and now I got Metarium on. Good shit. 😅
I love metalcore more than metal itself, but honestly, it is its own genre of heavy rock music nowadays. Just like emo, goth and new wave broke away from punk.
@@EncoreASMR If we all want to agree that bands that are mostly hard rock with a breakdown for a bridge are excluded from metalcore then I'll accept that. 😂
You actually summarized it pretty well for me in a way I couldn’t explain before. I got into metal in the 2000s era so Bullet, Trivium, KSE, AILD, A7X (and some Atreyu) were huge for me. But I’ve struggled getting into some of the newer bands. I didn’t think about how the earlier bands are clearly more rooted in metal, whereas modern metalcore incorporate a lot more to their sound aside from JUST metal.
I feel like metalcore is the nu metal of 2000s and 2010s : another metal interation with a different aesthetic, genre bendings, new codes in terms of composition, and of course, massively hated by the older metal fans. I mean, seeing how much people respect Slipknot today, I'll not be surprised if some metalcore bands like Architects or Spiritbox recieve this ammount of recognition one day. Telling metalcore isn't metal is like telling nu metal isn't metal or Instrumental djent isn't metal ( Animals as Leaders ).
If I tell someone I like "metalcore" or I like "metal" they just don't know the difference and don't care enough to go search it. Not everything has to have a label, just be happy for people listening to music with instruments and screams
@user-nm2fn7mc7e if the analogy makes more sense with a different genre we can do that It's like saying current post Malone isn't country because he doesn't sound like Johnny Cash
Metallic Hardcore. Some bands lean more hardcore, and clearly aren't metal (Converge, Hatebreed) But I think those At The Gates - SOTS inspired metalcore bands from the 00s could easily be considered metal. Modern metalcore is way more pop oriented, though
In my estimation, over 98% of Heavy Metal can be defined as such: A Metal band is a band that plays Hard Rock style music with themes and imagery that consistently explores death and other concepts generally perceived as "evil." If you look at all of the band's that are definitively Heavy Metal, from Black Sabbath to Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Slayer, Mercyful Fate, Venom, Cannibal Corpse, etc... the one thing they all have in common is that they have multiple songs/albums across their discography where death and "evil" are core themes to their band identity. For example, 6 of the 8 songs on Ride the Lightning are about death. The song Black Sabbath is about a demon causing chaos & destruction to asmall village as "Satan's sitting there smiling." Death & evil. Judas Priest's Sad Wings of Destiny album artwork shows the fallen angel in Hell. Iron Maiden... Killers, Fear of the Dark, etc. So without that "touch of evil," it just doesn't look, sound, or feel like Metal.
Once studios began tuning vocals, singers changed the way they sang in order to be more easily tuned, they lost vibrato, feel, and vibe. Then you get everything on the grid, and it sterilized music, losing the live-ness that one gets when actually hearing a band play live. For a lot of home based musicians, playing on the grid is sadly a thing, with midi drums, etc. but I’d love to see a return to bands recording live off the floor, less edits, singers actually being able to sing in key. I have an issue with modern metal genres, because it all sounds sterile, and overly produced. It loses that feel of a bunch of people in a room, hashing out music, note by note.
I see it a different way. I question whether metal is really a genre anymore as opposed to a tonal quality. I mean, there are certain subgenres that are strongly rooted in metal traditions, but there are also metal covers of pop songs, all kinds of cultural/ethnic metal blends, etc. To me, metal has just become so broad that it really applies to any music that is percussive and intense, and it can cross many genres.
Oliver Sykes from BMTH called "Slaughter of the Soul" the greatest metal album of all time in an interview once At the Gates' influence can't be understated
I've seen this a lot going to sludge metal shows, where it's always a fun game to see if the band leans more doom metal or more hardcore. The biggest split was seeing Crowbar bring out a more doom metal crowd while Eyehategod had an entirely different crowd vibe more in line with hardcore.
To be fair they've almost never been pure melodic metalcore. Except on like Ascendancy and In Waves. Ember is much thrashier than say, Killswitch, so is Shogun, Vengeance and Silence are way more modern hard rock and the last 3 albums have only a little left of metalcore influence
I would just call them modernized metal. Have Ascendancy their music has almost no hardcore elements. Maybe someone could say the harsh vocals are hardcore style, but original metal didn’t even have harsh vocals, meaning that any extreme metal genre would also not be metal.
The problem is not whether metalcore is metal, the problem is whether it's good to strictly limit your metal experience to a single subgenre. Everyone can have a favorite one, but noone should stop exploring different ways of expression
yeah i listen to like all things metal and my brother listens to metalcore only. don't know how he does it. I would get so tired of hearing one subgenre all the time.
Truth. I find that too many metalcore/Deathcore fans don’t listen to or engage with other metal subgenres, and there’s a definite cultural difference there
Can someone fucking explain to me what metal is then? My entire life has just been people saying (band they don't like) isn't metal. I've literally had people tell me Metallica can no longer be considered metal, like wtf
I grew up in the Punk and Hardcore scene in the late 80s and early 90s. The first time I heard a band calling themselves Metalcore was around 1995. It was the french band Kickback at a gig in Belgium together with, let's say more traditional bands. They got the shit beaten out of them.
This is an unexpectedly good take. I didn't realize you were so based Bradley. Now I don't have to pretend to have an authoritative opinion on the internet about what metalcore is or isn't. Thank you.
I don't really thunk this argument makes sense. I think modern metalcore is closer to classic metal than, say, mayhem for example. As long as we don't regard any subgenre as it's own thing, I don't think excluding metalcore specifically makes any sense whatsoever.
The argument is more of a cultural one than a sonic one. Metalcore has grown it's own culture, fan base, and set of influences that detaches it from traditional metal culture. If sonic characteristics were all that mattered, we could plausibly consider hardcore and metal to be the same genre since they both have heavy guitars and angry vocals. Same thing with modern rap and pop production being more similar than ever. Black metal is still only considered a subgenre because it never gained the cultural significance to become its own sustainable thing outside of the metal ethos.
brad you definitely hit the nail on the head with this one. the core genres are definitely just utilising the sonic elements of metal but aren't the genre and that's perfectly fine. the same listeners of metal core would likely not listen to metal
I love deathcore and black metal and prog metal, death metal(mgla, dirge, enslaved, gotsu totsu kotsu, etc...) and all that lol not speaking for everyone but I'm sure many who listen to hardcore genres also listen to metal. Maybe I'm wrong tho cause my sister likes hardcore genres and doesn't really listen to any metal lol.
Metalcore is not metal, nu metal is also not metal, thrash metal is as well not actual metal, glam metal is obviously not metal, old British metal bands are close but not real metal, there is only one metal, the blade that cut the fingers of Tony Iommi, everything else are just posers.
I do agree with the general point, it kind of is and isn't. I personally like some death metal, some melodic, some metalcore, used to like hardcore back in high school bla bla. If I like it, I like it. Out of curiosity what do you think of August Burns Red?
I'm actually on both sides of the camp of metal and core. I listen to any metal/extreme metal from the 80s to today, and I enjoy a lot of the modern poppy/djenty death/metalcore style music. I started off as an old-school elitist asshole metalhead, but my tastes over the years really have expanded out, and I like any music that sounds good. We should strive to unite as music fans and not limit our tastes based on circles of people in tight fanbases(like mentioned previously, been there done that!) Listen to whatever sounds good! Life is too short.
ngl metalcore and nu metal back then is my gateway into metal and hardcore, there's no way I found converge, botch, d.r.i, leeway, or any crossover thrash without knowing metal and hardcore term as a teenager
@@TheThunderwars I meant she’s a solo artist. She is a multi instrumentalist but not a virtuoso. She’s a singer-songwriter and like most solo artists, she tours with a band and uses session musicians on her records.
10:50 yeah that's fair. a lot of people also mix in hardcore with metalcore or there's a bit of overlap so that can bring it a bit further away as well
@iqbalmuhammad2920 no it really is because elitists act like metal is only influenced by other metal genres when factually the only reason metal exists is because they took other genres influences
I don't know if its primarily "core" bands that do this, but my issue with a lot of modern metal, is bands having to have a breakdown in EVERY fucking song. Its the equivalent to dubstep drops, but for metal.
Metalcore vs Metal feels a lot like American Chinese food vs Authentic Chinese food. American Chinese food has a deep history connected to Chinese immigrants attempting to make their cultural cuisine with the flavours available in North America at the time. While looked down upon, it has become its own stapled cuisine and is loved and appreciated by many for being exactly what it is - even from people of asian culture, to where it is now accepted as a new form of Chinese food. However, if someone likes American Chinese food, they won't necessarily like authentic Chinese food - and vice versa. They might! but they also might not. Both are Chinese food, both were made my Chinese people, both have a history of Chinese culture within their respective countries, but they are different types of food. And both are disliked by people who have no adventure in trying other kinds of food. Thats Metalcore vs Metal to me. Both are valid forms of Metal, both have a rich history that come from a similar starting point, both have their fans that dislike the other, and fans that like the other, and while they are two distinct styles of music they are still musical siblings that one's parents will inevitably say "turn that rubbish off, it's just noise!"
I used to be one of those people that talked shit about it, and I realized the problem I had with it.. 1) It was the second-era, sorta the mall core sound that just wasn’t my thing. It sounded whiny and milquetoast. 2) my bigger issue was with the fans of that era. They didn’t seem to be able to have a conversation about metal bands outside of that sphere. I was getting into all of these subgenres and I wanted to share and discuss with those around me about it. It always felt like the “core kids” didn’t know anything about Metal before 2000 or didn’t even do a deeper dive into the even more established subgenres and bands. Nowadays, I embrace metallic hardcore bands like Hatebreed, and or hardcore fusion bands like Code Orange. Black Metal seems to fuse very well with Hardcore as well.
I actually had a shat at work That sounded just like bradleys sound clip and i had a moment where i was like “ where have i heard this tone before ?!?!” Thanks bradley !! 👍
I always thought Metalcore was a heavier, metally form of Hardcore . Not metal. Meaning it’s all about DIY and counter culture and stuff but it’s a really extra angry teen
Polaris, currents, Erra, knocked loose, aplha wolf, motionless in white... There are so many good modern metalcore bands that he could have mentioned, Australia is very good at metalcore. And I don't even consider it bad owens.
I'm actually a long time fan of hardcore and I can confirm that metalcore sounds more like hardcore than actual metal. The Devil Wear Prada has way more in common with Hatebreed and Earth Crisis than they do bands like Exodus or Morbid Angel. And Hatebreed has way more to do with Suicidal Tendancies than they do pure Thrash Not that metalcore isn't metal at all but it's far closer to hardcore than, say, deathcore even. Deathcore is basically the metal version of metalcore
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 I originally misread your comment. I thought you were calling 90's hardcore not "actual hardcore". I thought I was about to get into it with some punk geezer
Love a bit of djenty core with those BMTH electro pop mix ups. However also a big fan of black metal, power metal, and traditional death metal. With bands like Can Baard, Dio, and Death up there with my favourites. Count Your Blessings dropped at a formative age for me though, so I will always have a soft spot for Bring Me The Horizon. 😎
I remember when Attack Attack's video for Stick Stickly came out, and around the same time we had Brokencyde, and I just thought... this is it, we've reached the end of music. If this is what people are having to come up with in order to think of something new to do with the medium, we're just out of ideas I guess.
I certainly hope there isn't more division in the metal community, our entire channel relies on it, lol. I'd argue with the genre bending of today, there's more room for exploring other sub genres. Especially with accessibility of music. That's what drove the MySpace era, was the ease of access to new music. Now with streaming, there's endless possibilities for playlist. You definitely brought up some thought-provoking points though... PS, I never saw myself as a core kid but I guess that's how I grew up... Not a scene kid, but definitely a core kid, Lol.
At the most simplistic level, this is the true dividing line. I just don’t identify with guys with short hair, neck and full arm sleeve tattoos. It’s a completely different counter culture. It’s like the musical equivalent of gaming culture now.
@@powermonger9090 agree 100%. I'm not saying anything against these types, it's just when I used to find these cool bands and look in the record shops, you can see them looking all metal like with long hair and go "oh shit, I want to hear what these guys sound like" you can tell the different metal styles just from their hair and clothes..glam, death, speed metal..etc. Now they all look like anyone at a hipster bar.
The one thing that flies over a lot of people's heads is that even tho metalcore came from metal, its different iterations throughout the years have strayed further and further from the foundations and tropes of "old" metal. Theres people who like both things but there's been a divide. 10 years ago, the discourse was "metalcore's not real metal", and now its become "is metalcore even metal at this point?".
I wouldnt care about this if both styles werent cornering themselves. Modern metal wants to keep catering towards the lowest common denominator and become as viral and mainstream as possible while old school metal is becoming a parody of itself. Im being a bit harsh but you get the point.
There we go, someone who gets it! Well done my man 🧠
I think that the fact that modern metal (which i tend to point in the direction of metalcore, djent and stuff as that) has the tendency to forget the roots of where it came from, the fact that they point at "old metalheads" and scream they dont accept us but themselves need to play in a "penis size comparison " " check my band being more technical then yours, loser" type of thing shows how much difference there is between Metal and Core.
I played in a core band and we where jokingly compared to a band like"a bad version of Parkway drive " and my death metal band has been given praise even tho the music was (ill be very blatantly honest) pure shit, shows why some bands strayed from the core scene and went more into the metal scene, like for example Avenged, Trivium and Bullet, they understood how toxic the core scene is. (Except for old hardcore punk dudes, they kick ass)
originally metalcore was "metallic hardcore", it came from hardcore, not metal.
it's the second wave aka "melodic metalcore" inspired by Slaughter of the Soul album, which is closer to metal than core.
@@Compic Tonight on "To Catch A Gatekeeper"
I would disagree that old school metal has become a parody of itself, some of the original bands maybe but modern metal doesn’t just equate to metal core.
High on fire, Conan, slomatics, Kylesa, Elder just a few current bands that are flying the old school flag in the best ways. And they don’t sound like they’re just copying each other and using the exact same production techniques. They’re making genuinely dynamic modern music.
*Listeners discussing about 1000 different metal genres*
Pop listeners for decades: yea this pop
pop just means popular, it's a fluid genre by design
Morons arguing about the 10 millions different sub genres of metal is the single most annoying thing about metal. I've also noticed it tends to be people who can't play any instrument that become "experts" on genres.
Anyway who cares it all just metal.
@@mach2223 For me pop is every genre thats not traditional folklore, jazz, classic or experimental in a sense of electroacoustic. So Hip-Hop=Pop, Metalcore=Pop and yes even Black Metal=Pop. It's all U Musik (Unterhaltungs Musik) which translates to entertainment music.
There is no such thing as a pop listener.
Nobody goes out to buy pop cds or generally gives a shit about the future of pop music. It's just normie slop that gets put on the radio and people just never question it.
@@georgdreck3202 Nah.
Pop is the derived form of Rock & Roll, and it came around the 1950s.
So, I would rather the say in most of the cases, the fluid genre is the Rock & Roll (1940s).
When Trivium put out "Boat Rudder, Strange Mountain" they really solidified the metalcore genre.
Idk...like Ascendency is their Quintessential Metalcore album when I think about them.
Aye, landmark moment hahaha
@@natebeal18 this is Ascendency, they were making fun of the vocals on Pull Harder On the Strings of Your Martyr
Bro that misinterpretation will never ever get old.
The fact I knew which song you meant ☠️
In the end, There is no Hardcore today that isn't Metal influenced, and no Metal that Isn't Hardcore influenced
Doom and stoner are not very hardcore influenced ... Power, symphonic metal ...
@@Rober2D2candle mass??
I completely agree with your take away Beanly. Musically metalcore is definitely metal, but culturally for the past 20 years the divide has grown pretty severe. The metalcore people associate and listen mostly among the core branch, and while they may agree with a traditional metalhead on a couple of bands they like, they rarely intersect with traditional metalhead both culturally and musically.
Isn't it just distinctive sub-culture then? I can't see it as totally different genre either when it musically isn't. Also lot of metalcore fans do identify metalcore as metal (way more than as hardcore). I'm not sure if this is different in other countries but where I¨m from pretty much all metalcore kids just go with the term metalhead and metalcore bands are in metal festivals, not punk nor hardcore festivals (and metalcore doesn't have their own festivals here).
In more simple words:
Boomer grandpas that are still stuck in the past are confused why the younger generation of today favors more modern metal over the old grandpa rock from the past.
The reason for this is very obvious and simple:
Modern metal (like Metalcore) is much more diverse and more dynamic which makes it overall more interesring.
Modern Meral is much more intenaive in all aspects:
it's heavier, more groovy, more energetic, more aggressive, more rhytmically diverse, while at the same time it's also more melodic and more emotional as well.
This makes modern Metal (especially *Melodic Metalcore* but also *Nu-Metal* and *Symphonic Metal)* superior compared to old boomer rock, since it has much more of all traits combined
Someone get nik nocturnal in on this
if it's the article I'm thinking of Nik made a video on this a month ago
Lmao exactly what I was thinking
He already did a vid on this. Hilarious. "Metal is in the name, it might be more metal because its the core of it" 😂
@@Toxyethanol "Metal is in the name, it might be more metal because its the core of it"
By this logic seahorses are in fact horses and wolf spiders are wolves.
Anyone can slap the word metal on to a music genre and proclaim it metal, that doesn't make it metal. If I said the M in the Electronic Dance Music stood for metal instead, while the music sounds exactly like EDM does today would that make it metal? No, of course it wouldn't.
@@primordialserpent1763 Go tell that to Nik lol Im just sayin it was hilarious, he said it. Try to keep up
The thing that makes it complex is that a lot of genres take influence from a way broader spectrum than before since the early to mid 2010s, metalcore has very much so taken that on, while other parts of metal haven't
The real thing that makes it complex is that "genre" is very complex abstract and there's no objective ground truths to defining genres.
@@eliteextremophile8895 Oh for sure, there's no clear boundaries with any of it, just a lot of blurred edges
@@eliteextremophile8895 id argue a genre starts and ends around a certain timeframe and has a certain structure that gives it its signature feeling and that it must be followed like a recipe to remain original, things do change for better and worse imo genres are like living things that need to be kept up or they whither away like classical music or get bastardized like rap
I think the Bad Omens/BMTH type of Metalcore is just today's version of what Nu Metal was in its prime. Using heavy sounds to pull off Pop formulas of the time. Pop Metal basically, but imo still Metal. Looking back at Nu Metal today, most of it can much easier be seen as _within_ the broader Metal category than it seemed back then. So I think that applies to modern softer Metalcore as well.
except current bad omens ain’t metalcore
@@theoneandonly7019 sure it is, almost doesnt appear much of the metalcore in it, but still has breakdowns, some screams (V.A.N with poppy) and other metalcore stuff, sleep token we almost doesnt see the metal in it, but still, it is labeled as metalcore...
I really don't think sleep token is being labeled as metalcore is there a source that I can see where people are saying this
I would say metal has a larger meaning now. Like how rock no longer means Elvis and Beatles metal no longer means just Metallica and Maiden
I like that comparison. Very awesome!
Holy shit i didn't see the "just" and was about to go off on a boomer rant infused with the army 300 confirmed kills copypasta on your ass.
That's the problem with subculture appropriation. It changed the definition til the definition no longer is relevant. Gate keep
harder or your scene will turn into pop trash. Fight for your lives
@@Whitehorse_crimefighterunhinged
@@Whitehorse_crimefighter lmao
Metalcore is the fusion of metal and hardcore. Therefore it is as much a subgenre of metal as it is of hardcore.
It's not a fusion. It's hardcore that has been influenced by metal, hence the genre's original name: Metallic Hardcore.
metalcore is emo
Technically it is metal influenced punkrock.
No@@Aurusmm
@@Aurusmm because you look through the prism of popular bands from 2006-2011 from myspace era
Bro, your channel has been pushing me to get better at thrash metal guitar playing. Both hilarious and informative. Cheers homie ✊🏼🔥
Cheers buddy, so cool to hear that!
Because thrash is the best 🤓
@@lanzarlalunayes 🗿
@@BradleyHallGuitar bro what happened to all ur shorts!!!! 😭😭😭😢
"Do It To It" - Sun Tzu 420 AD
As a core kid I appreciate the support of the early 2000s bands like KSE, A7X, Trivium & As I Lay Dying. What the genre morphed into later I couldnt get behind, so I've circled back to thrash & death metal
As someone who grew up listening to hardcore those bands were the ones that were ruining the genre and had no place in it.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453KSE didn’t, others I got no interest.
As i gay crying is garbage and their vocalist is roid monkey
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 Say whatever you want, but don't talk shit about Trivium. Their early albums are amazing.
@@FStan-co8vv Different strokes.
Depends where you draw lines. Some people would only define metal as the metal of the 70s/80s. Do you think Nu-metal is metal? Like Limp Bizkit, linkin park and Slipknot? I’d say so, what about old Metalcore like Avenged Sevenfold? They’re pretty metal to me. Draw the line where you see fit, it all changes depending on who you ask. I believe the new metalcore like BMTH, Architects and even Dayseeker or I Prevail is still metal.
Metal is very versatile and within metal there are many sub-genres that come from the same place. Even metalcore is very diverse and broad.
I think the defining part is what influenced their music most.
I'd say avenged sevenfold is more on the metal side as Hatebreed is more on the core side of things, i tend to put everything with a shit load of groove into the core genre, i would even say pantera sounds and feels more like a hardcore band than a metal band some times
To me it's interesting because I remember metalheads in my youth (the 80s) being pretty open minded but growing more tribal as the decade progressed. Hair metal ruled the world then but eventually Metallica (who doesn't get enough credit for ending hair metal's reign, it's generally given to Nirvana and grunge instead) won out and that's when there started being a lot more line drawing, a lot more "this is true metal" (or trve as our Norwegian friends would say) and "that's false metal". If you go to Encyclopedia Metallum you won't find Kittie. Why not? What the heck are they if not metal? (Not saying they're good metal or bad metal, just that they're an example of someone being kept out of the club by gatekeepers.)
I think you need to look more at the culture of the music than the sonic characteristics. If all we cared about was how it sounded, we could easily argue that hardcore is also metal just because it has heavy guitars and angry vocals.
If you look at the culture around metalcore, it is highly detached from metal. Different influences, different ethos, different style, different fans etc. Why do we perceive grunge as it's own genre despite it taking obvious influences from other rock genres? It's because of it's cultural significance. It's a self-sustaining movement.
In my mind, there's a pretty clear distinction in culture between metal and it's subgenres, and metalcore with its own subgenres.
I think BMTH and I prevail are slowly exiting the metal genre/metalcore
@@JHAN1212 That's precisely it. Metal was a lifestyle in the '80s. And it was nothing like Nu Metal or Hardcore or whatever kids find edgy these days. You can't just buy a distortion pedal and call yourself metal.
The metalcore debate should’ve been settled in the mid-2000s. If it is part metal, it’s metal. If being descended from hardcore disqualifies metalcore from being metal, why aren’t we having that discussion about thrash or groove metal.
I also don’t like Attack Attack and many of the so-called “mallcore” bands. Doesn’t make them any less metal. Just because I don’t like an artist or a sub-genre it doesn’t mean I can gatekeep them out of the metal genre.
@ayeb0ss id argue the real conversation starts with the fact that music evolves and has defined structure, meaning there's a typical timeframe certain genres were created before and after their peaks being influenced by many things other than itself and the "real" genre exists somewhere in the middle. Most people would agree there are bands that pioneer and influence everyone around them to create new things that dont fit the structure previously defined making something new. my opinion is that folk metal isnt metal its a new genre of folk sense it derives its song structure from folk and pulls instruments from metal.
I can't stand nu-metal, it sounds like radio friendly dad rock to me, but it's unequivocally metal.
I understand why people don't like metalcore/deathcore, (it's all I listen to these days) but it doesn't disqualify it as metal.
A hardcore/punk pedigree doesn't change the fact that it's death metal riffs, heavy distortion, ambient synths etc. It's a progressive genre, but it's clewrly metal.
Attack Attack don't deserve this much hate, they are actually greatly underestimated.
Only their first album from 2008 was very cringe i agree on that because the EDM parts ruined it.
But after that they learned from the critics and completely changed their style completely and even the singer (vocals) was a different dude in the following second and third albums in 2010 and 2012.
So they were not even the same band anymore after they changed their style and sound in the 2nd and 3rd Album in 2010 and 2012.
their next 2 follwing records were actually very dope and powerful with more Metal elements and no cringe EDM parts anymore
Most people only judge their 1st album from 2008 and don't give them any credit for their efforts to change after that, at least they did take the critics serious and learned form it and this alone should deserve more respect.
But what is funnny is that while Attack Attack changed their own style completely, many other people got influenced by their first album and jumped on this train and continued this path of using EDM parts but in a better (and less cringey) way.
Some better examples are: *_Abandon All Ships, Make Me Famous, Capture The Crown, Scream Your Name_*
and a few others...
@@RockandMetal-u9x not even hating on them, just saying I didn’t like them back in the day with the whole crabcore EDM thing. But me not liking them doesn’t make it “not metal.”
@@luistijerina
the Crabcore thing is actually very hilarious and cool,
it basically makes fun of and mocks all the wannabe though guys who take themsleves too serious.
So all the people who have a problem with that are exactly the type of guys who take themselves too serious 😂
(NO FUN ALLOWED) 😠😡
And like I already said they got completely rid of the EDM parts after their first album, so at least the other 2 following album records were nuch better and closer to the original roots of metallic hardcore again
(instead other bands continued the electornicore trend but in a better way and less cringey)
Metal derives from older genres of music too, i like that metal became a larger umbrella that can hosts a variety of genres and subgenres, and also....who cares? mixing it up is how you create new stuff imo
Bands like Killswitch Engage, Bring me the Horizon, Architects and Trivium have made songs that are heavier than anything Megadeth has ever done.
And?
Trivium go brrrrt
Those bands sound the same so we dont really care, 0 originallity
In the past we had "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" Today we have "Is metalcore metal?" Anyway I'm old enough to remember when the term metalcore was first coined in the 80s to describe what we now define as crossover. Around the same time Slayer was called death metal because of their subject matter and musical intensity which was unmatched, even though stuff we know call death metal was also around before that genre really crystalized. Time has a way of taking these phrases and making them mean something else.
"the term metalcore was first coined in the 80s to describe what we now define as crossover" precisely!
yup, my first exposure to metalcore was Darkest Hour, which was described as "At The Gates played by a hardcore band".
3:20 Skyrim in Bradley Hall video, my life is complete now
It fit well lol
And ksp lmao.
You actually hit the nail on the head with the fact that the subcultures between traditional metal fans and core fans often have very little overlap. The metal fans I know in my area are predominantly metalcore fans and when they talk about new "metal" releases, it's like they're in a totally different world than the one I'm in. They'd be talking about bands like Bring Me the Horizon, Motionless in White and Slaughter to Prevail. But they don't always tend to be fans of other modern bands who fall more within "traditional" metal subgenres. Like Blood Incantation for death metal, Mgła for black metal, Vektor for thrash... you get the point. And you can usually still put fans of death, black, thrash and power metal together and they can connect and find some common ground. But it so often feels like metalcore is like an entirely different subculture.
Cause the bands that you mentioned are Nu Metalcore, like Nu metal in his time
almost like people will gravitate towards the sound that they like which is the entire point of a subgenre that doesn't mean there are any less metal than the other I don't see a lot of overlap between power metal and Nu metal does that mean either one of those isn't metal
I like plenty of metalcore, honestly I feel like metalcore sounds closer to most of the metal I listen to than, for example, black metal. Personally I listen to metalcore a lot more than black, death or many other types of metal...but it's mainly thrash, prog, groove, funk, nu and the old school stuff for me. Metal is just too diverse to be one genre, that's really what I think this comes down to.
My issue with metalcore though, is one of the main points in the video - most current listeners of it seem to have no interest in other metal, their Spotify most-played will be BTMH, Asking Alexandria and a bunch of pop artists. Admittedly, Spotify thinks my most-played songs of 2023 includes at least 1 song that definitely isn't on any playlist I listened to in 2023 and nobody else has any form of access to my account, while songs from an album I had on repeat for most of December aren't even on there, so perhaps those people love all forms of metal and Spotify is just stupid...
Just wanted to let you know, December stats don't factor in. It only starts counting on January 1st and ends shortly before you get your Wrapped.
@@s4ndvich Didn't realise that, thanks.
I disagree. I know a lot of people who mainly listen to core but also like Nu, thrash, death, black and even old school metal.
You can argue the same for many black metal fans who only listen to black metal. And maybe death metal occasionally.
The people you are talking about are people who listen to mainstream music and metalcore, having elements of said music is the subgenre these people will most likely listen to.
@@Goteiii You're not wrong, but it's a similar argument to "German cars are reliable because I have a German car that hasn't broken" - the sample size isn't sufficient to provide the full picture (German cars, statistically, aren't especially reliable).
In this case of course, I also don't have the sample size - so it's possible that we're both entirely right. I think my point still stands though - the target audience of metalcore isn't really metalheads these days, the culture around the genre is more the pop crowd.
Edited cos I accidentally hit ctrl & enter while typing...new keyboard & fat fingers 😄
I'd say All That Remains, As I Lay Dying, August Burns Red (on Constellations and forward) and early Parkway Drive are also firmly rooted in metal. Anything from the 2010s onwards is its own thing imo (some of which I rly enjoy, some of it not so much).
You know the singer of ALl that Remains was in Shadows Fall first? I gigged with them and Shadows Fall on tour togther before Overcast broke up and Brian joined SF, All That Remains started later, and Mike was a fan of ours and influenced Killswitch Engage, we were doing power ballad parts in Hardcore in 97 SInce The Fall Reading PA, our FUllength is fan uploaded 1999 I knew almost all these people, Took Unearth on their first mini-tour, played early pre Relapse gigs with Dillinger Escape plan. Almost singed to Eulogy with Unearth bit disbanded due to Skinhead riots
August Burns Red Came later to, they kinda ripped off Unearth to be honest, We are from the same area
I would never have expected to hear Bradley talk about Poppy.
same. I wonder if he's heard I Disagree? Such an unbeatable album
Metalcore is in your "EVERY Metal Genre In A Nutshell" video :D
Checkmate
We went with metalcore from hardcore punk with metal, then melodic death combined with Iron Maiden duals and early metalcore. Now I feel like most modern metalcore is just Meshuggah + breakdowns + random genres and that's how we have Spitibox, current BMTH or Sleep Token.
I feel like now metalcore is its own thing that is even bigger than whole modern metal scene. And at the same time it's still part of whole metal world.
3:18 song by Iron Maiden. song name - Murders in the rue morgue
Agreed that they're two different things, although unlike many commenters below not in a gatekeepy "that's not REAL metal!!!" way (which is real cringe btw). Modern metalcore is so different from both old-school metal and hardcore that it's an entire genre in its own right now rather than a sub-genre of either of those. There's a lot of really innovative and interesting bands in the scene though like Loathe, Periphery and (to an extent) Spiritbox who keep pushing it further in that direction too
I still feel like metalcore is made up of metal and core and is both, newer bands bring in more influences from other genres but the base of their sound is still a mix of metal and core, if it wasn't then it would no longer be metalcore. I agree the difference in sound between modern metalcore and heavy metal is big but I'm not really sure I'd say it's much bigger than the difference between heavy metal and stuff like grindcore/goregrind/brutal death/suicidal black or between speed/power metal and funeral doom all of them are still metal despite sounding so different, each sub genre has metal at the base of their sound then evolves in its own way but it will continue to be metal until it's no longer the base of their sound. I don't really see how metalcore could be different enough from metal to no longer be a sub genre of metal when metal isn't even its own thing it's still a sub genre of rock.
From what I've heard of Periphery, they have some good riffs, as someone who appreciates a bit of Djent, but I absolutely can't get past those scene vocals
I love how you teach us all things Metal. (and non metal) lol
Thallium is the heaviest of the known toxic Heavy METALS; which burns in a nice green glow! \m/
He's not teaching anyone anything lmaoo
@@KrisSchwarz98 His 2nd channel bruh... Beanly Hallsworth
@@THRASHMETALFUNRIFFS ok and? Still doesn't teach anyone anything about metal, it's easier to learn yourself tbh
10:26 - I feel _exactly_ the same way. I love Nik Nocturnal's channel, for example, and I watch him a lot, but whenever it comes to bands, specific references and sometimes even specific terms, I feel completely out of the conversation. In that sense, I would have to agree that metalcore has departed enough from traditional metal that it stopped being a subgenre and has become a genre unto its own.
This shit is so true i feel so fucking dumb whenever i check what is nik nocturnal up to
Saying Metalcore isn't Metal is the same as saying Symphonic Metal, Folk Metal or Industrial Metal isn't Metal. Just because Metalcore has pop elements doesn't mean it's not as Metal as subgenres that incorporate violins, flutes or a freaking jackhammer noise sample. In fact Metalcore usually is heavier than any of these 3 other genres I mentioned. It has heavy riffs (often also very technical), screaming, growling, breakdowns etc. Even more so if it's Deathcore. Meanwhile bands like Nightwish often play really soft music with piano, bag pipes and sometimes acoustic guitars yet they're considered Metal. And I'm a huge Nightwish fan myself so I certainly see them as a Metalband as well. Anything that has a drum kit, a bass guitar and most important of all low tuned electric guitars is Metal in my books. Just because you don't like a certain subgerne doesn't make it any less Metal.
Exactly my thoughts. (I might be biased because I’m a huge NW fan) but I feel like they’re metal but with a different flavor
Punk (especially hardcore punk) has "a drum kit, a bass guitar and most important of all low tuned electric guitar". By your definition, it's metal.
does metalcore by defintion have pop elements though? isn't that just certain bands? there is a lot of SUPER heavy metalcore with no pop elements at all imo. Bands like Sanction, Integrity, Gulch, Integrity, Burnt by the Sun, Knocked Loose, Candy, Snapcase, Vein.fm etc etc I see the hardcore punk and I see the metal elements but where is the pop in most of those bands lol
@@magnifichades9710 Love Nightwish ❤❤
@@CovesthurThen they’ll say those bands aren’t metalcore 😂
What do YOU think? Is Metalcore still Metal or its own thing entirely now??
It was never metal and will never be
Yes, in my opinion it is a subgenre of Metal
Yes it's. At least sounds Waaaaay More Metal compared to Nü, Glam or Folk so...
Bro you look like Marty Friedman
Bro you look like Marty Friedman
The thing about metalcore is that its become so diverse that its barely even a subgenre per sè, its pretty much its own genre born from metal and hardcore, with some bands leaning more towards one or the other.
For example BFMV, Trivium and Killswitch definitely lean more into metal, then you have bands like Knocked Loose, And Kublai Khan TX which are somehow considered metalcore that are more grounded in hardcore.
Its a case by case basis.
BFMV/KSE/Trivium are the holy trinity for me, best metalcore bands especially The Poison/Daylight Dies/Ascendancy
All That Remains' Six is also up there
BFMV/Trivium early stuffs feels like metal with a fair amount of pop-ification on the production side to give it more mainstream appeal, like a early-2000s version of Black Album/Youthanasia, which is even more apparent with their next releases. The core elements is mainly the screaming and breakdown, but the guitar work is a lot more complex than something like A7X's Waking the Fallen, which is just a lot of simple power chords (they really upped the guitar work for City of Evil). But at the same time, A7X's Waking the Fallen is a lot more raw and lack the "poppy" production of the later bands
@@shadowcrimson6232daylight dies is metalcore? I always thought they were death doom especially with their sound being very reminiscent of katatonia's early works
@@FractionalVoid I was referring to Killswitch Engage's As Daylight Dies album
@@shadowcrimson6232 my bad, i thought you were talking about the band
Whether or not it's metal, I don't really care as I'm open to any genre even though I prefer rock.
I lived long enough to see a metalhead questioning about headbang 4:39 LOL
FR
I think he was criticizing technique, not the act itself
0:01 I agree. You don’t even have to explain.
I don't understand how anyone can listen to the awesomeness of As I Lay Dying, I Killed the Prom Queen, Parkway Drive, Bleeding Through, Darkest Hour, etc., and say "hur dur tHaT's nOt mEtAl!"
Acknowledging a band's genre =/= disrespecting them
He clearly said in the video that Metalcore like the bands you mentioned is very much metal and it only started separating later.
@@mishmeshmonster2482instead telling they're posers
Iunno, I consider Metalcore Metal. I do appreciate what Bradley said about it feeling like a different culture when talking to core-kids, but personally that's not enough for me to say it's outside the broader Metal umbrella. Like, you could probably make the same argument if you were in a room full of Black Metal fans; you (well, me, anyway) wouldn't be able to relate to them either but that doesn't mean Black Metal isn't Metal.
I'll throw on some Judas Priest or Insomnium next to Spiritbox or Monuments or even Dance Gavin Dance and still consider it all the same thing. DGD might be a stretch for some. I guess: if it's Metal-adjacent then it's Metal.
"Like, you could probably make the same argument if you were in a room full of Black Metal fans"
This doesn't hold true though, its easy for people who are into other metal subgenres to discuss crossover bands with black metal fans for example:
Death metal fans could discuss: Archgoat, Blasphemy, Behemoth, Necrophobic
Doom metal fans could discuss: Katatonia, Bethlehem, Nortt
Heavy metal fans could discuss: Venom, Mercyful Fate, Hellripper
Thrash metal fans could discuss: Bathory, Sodom, Destruction, Celtic Frost, Sarcofago
What are metalcore fans going to discuss? Lorna Shore? They'd be laughed out of the room.
@@primordialserpent1763yeah with them only being the main "blackened metalcore band" to be well-recognised its difficult which is why I always advocate to share and expose more niche Metalcore bands who crosses other Metal genres who do deserve attention. For more Blackened Metalcore I could talk about TELOS, Cult Leader, Oathbreaker. There are bands that blend other Metal subgenres but most of the best and purest examples tend to be very VERY underground
There's so much blackened- bands. Now I wonder if there's any blackened metalcore or deathcore. Because it seems like every metal subgenres has some bands that mix black metal with another genre.
Also, as a massive fan of metalcore growing up, I'm now very much into bands with classical death metal elements such as ObscurA and Decapitated, so crossover does happen 🤷♂
The whole spectrum of metalcore/post-hardcore is so broad. To find bands in these genre that I really enjoy I often have to look into more specific subgenres like mathcore (Converge, Botch, early Dillinger and Cave In) or whatever the thing The Fall of Troy and Dance Gavin Dance do is. That early primitive caveman metalcore is cool too.
DGD is pop punk
@@BranDon-lz3fy There's a lot of pop sound in DGD, but they've got way too much twinkly guitar stuff for me to put them in the pop punk box.
@@apreciemosplus what other pop punk band has the harsh vocals they have half the time
@@BranDon-lz3fy More like experimental post-hardcore
If metalcore isn't metal then none of the subgenres are.
Deathcore, Matcore and Progressive Metalcore( Between the buried and me)
As my father makes me sweep the autumn leaves and ashes from the driveway before the burial and betrayal at the horizon. Classic band
I love core, am definitely a core kid although I thoroughly enjoy early speed metal, heavy metal, proto metal as well, or Stoner metal, death metal in general, thrash,black metal, and pretty much all metal. I do agree that core and metal are quite a bit different, I think so in sound as well, but can also hear the familiarities
God I could listen to this man's analysis videos on music for ever. Omg. He's so good and his points and his criticisms and his overall just appreciation for music is so just spot on.
I mean, it's still unquestionably metal. I don't know how many people really like all styles of metal, usually we pick a few that we like and stick to that. You can't just kick out an entire subgenre of metal because there isn't a lot of crossover between the fandoms. I would imagine the same thing happens in all types of music, where some styles of hip hop or electronic or jazz have split off into a different sound and they have their own fanbases, but are absolutely still part of the family.
There's also 2 sides to metalcore, we can't forget about the hardcore side of it. Hardcore came from a mixture of punk and metal, so metalcore would be like 75% metal, right? All that's happened is that subgenres have been created within the subgenre of metalcore, which is a natural progression. We now have a spectrum of bands ranging from the pop-oriented on one end, all the way to the heaviest riff salad and breakdowns style on the other end. It just be that way.
Couldn't agree more. As Metal as a genre is diverging and developing, the broad spectrum of Metal adjacent bands is growing.
Lately there are new up and coming bands in the realm of either melodic metal (i.e. Electric Callboy, Smash Into Pieces) or nu-nu-metal (i.e. Falling in Reverse). I personally like all of those, yet still rooted in my favorites Melodeth/Thrash/Traditional Metal.
Broadening and bending metal as a genre produces more opportunities for new fans to prefer heavy music over others. And that keeps metal alive.
@@guyr.6053 Right, like I mostly follow metalcore/deathcore, and I prefer the late 2000's riff salad and breakdowns style that I mentioned. Chelsea Grin, After the Burial, Within The Ruins, and old stuff from Veil of Maya, Born of Osirs, and August Burns Red, that's my kind of thing and I don't really go far beyond that. I used to listen to Iron Maiden and 3 Inches of Blood and stuff when I was younger, and then I joined a band in high school and they were playing metalcore so I got into that. Protest the Hero is also probably my favourite band, but that's kind of an outlier for my metal preferences. Other than that I listen to stuff outside of metal, J-Pop being my main music source for the past number of years. I just had Niji No Conquistador on and now I got Metarium on. Good shit. 😅
I love metalcore more than metal itself, but honestly, it is its own genre of heavy rock music nowadays. Just like emo, goth and new wave broke away from punk.
@@EncoreASMR If we all want to agree that bands that are mostly hard rock with a breakdown for a bridge are excluded from metalcore then I'll accept that. 😂
Video on death metal Vs black metal would be fun.
Could go over the origins, main difference and cross overs
You actually summarized it pretty well for me in a way I couldn’t explain before. I got into metal in the 2000s era so Bullet, Trivium, KSE, AILD, A7X (and some Atreyu) were huge for me. But I’ve struggled getting into some of the newer bands. I didn’t think about how the earlier bands are clearly more rooted in metal, whereas modern metalcore incorporate a lot more to their sound aside from JUST metal.
metalcore is metal because its name says so, thank you for your attention
I feel like metalcore is the nu metal of 2000s and 2010s : another metal interation with a different aesthetic, genre bendings, new codes in terms of composition, and of course, massively hated by the older metal fans. I mean, seeing how much people respect Slipknot today, I'll not be surprised if some metalcore bands like Architects or Spiritbox recieve this ammount of recognition one day.
Telling metalcore isn't metal is like telling nu metal isn't metal or Instrumental djent isn't metal ( Animals as Leaders ).
If I tell someone I like "metalcore" or I like "metal" they just don't know the difference and don't care enough to go search it. Not everything has to have a label, just be happy for people listening to music with instruments and screams
It’s more Punk than Metal.
Also, At the Gates walked so Most bands could run.
They definitely were ahead of the time.
its like calling out Lady Gaga for not being pop because she doesnt sound like Whitney Houston, metal community man
Pop isn't really a genre in the same way that metal is though
I would say it's more like calling Lady Gaga out for not sounding like Dolly Parton. Different genres exist, and that's perfectly ok.
@user-nm2fn7mc7e if the analogy makes more sense with a different genre we can do that
It's like saying current post Malone isn't country because he doesn't sound like Johnny Cash
Bradley, if you say "like" one more time, my metal will hit your core.
Metallic Hardcore.
Some bands lean more hardcore, and clearly aren't metal (Converge, Hatebreed)
But I think those At The Gates - SOTS inspired metalcore bands from the 00s could easily be considered metal.
Modern metalcore is way more pop oriented, though
@Generocyclopedia don't even get me started on 'djent' as a genre, bro lol
Thall is king
Converge? Jane Doe?
In my estimation, over 98% of Heavy Metal can be defined as such: A Metal band is a band that plays Hard Rock style music with themes and imagery that consistently explores death and other concepts generally perceived as "evil." If you look at all of the band's that are definitively Heavy Metal, from Black Sabbath to Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Slayer, Mercyful Fate, Venom, Cannibal Corpse, etc... the one thing they all have in common is that they have multiple songs/albums across their discography where death and "evil" are core themes to their band identity. For example, 6 of the 8 songs on Ride the Lightning are about death. The song Black Sabbath is about a demon causing chaos & destruction to asmall village as "Satan's sitting there smiling." Death & evil. Judas Priest's Sad Wings of Destiny album artwork shows the fallen angel in Hell. Iron Maiden... Killers, Fear of the Dark, etc. So without that "touch of evil," it just doesn't look, sound, or feel like Metal.
Metalcore is metal we should be united as one not fighting each other....
Poser.
Once studios began tuning vocals, singers changed the way they sang in order to be more easily tuned, they lost vibrato, feel, and vibe. Then you get everything on the grid, and it sterilized music, losing the live-ness that one gets when actually hearing a band play live. For a lot of home based musicians, playing on the grid is sadly a thing, with midi drums, etc. but I’d love to see a return to bands recording live off the floor, less edits, singers actually being able to sing in key. I have an issue with modern metal genres, because it all sounds sterile, and overly produced. It loses that feel of a bunch of people in a room, hashing out music, note by note.
I see it a different way. I question whether metal is really a genre anymore as opposed to a tonal quality. I mean, there are certain subgenres that are strongly rooted in metal traditions, but there are also metal covers of pop songs, all kinds of cultural/ethnic metal blends, etc. To me, metal has just become so broad that it really applies to any music that is percussive and intense, and it can cross many genres.
Oliver Sykes from BMTH called "Slaughter of the Soul" the greatest metal album of all time in an interview once
At the Gates' influence can't be understated
Metal isn't metal either really if you think about it
It's just heavy rock music 😂
If we will think deeper, then music isn't music at all
I've seen this a lot going to sludge metal shows, where it's always a fun game to see if the band leans more doom metal or more hardcore. The biggest split was seeing Crowbar bring out a more doom metal crowd while Eyehategod had an entirely different crowd vibe more in line with hardcore.
although Trivium could be considered metalcore, is still one of the best bands ever, you can't change that fact
They are still trying to make a good album like the first 2
@@klauskarlkraus first five albums were peak, their last album was 2021's best album by far
@@klauskarlkraus shogun was better and in waves is also goated. the 3 newest ones are also really good with some bangers.
To be fair they've almost never been pure melodic metalcore. Except on like Ascendancy and In Waves. Ember is much thrashier than say, Killswitch, so is Shogun, Vengeance and Silence are way more modern hard rock and the last 3 albums have only a little left of metalcore influence
I would just call them modernized metal. Have Ascendancy their music has almost no hardcore elements. Maybe someone could say the harsh vocals are hardcore style, but original metal didn’t even have harsh vocals, meaning that any extreme metal genre would also not be metal.
The problem is not whether metalcore is metal, the problem is whether it's good to strictly limit your metal experience to a single subgenre. Everyone can have a favorite one, but noone should stop exploring different ways of expression
yeah i listen to like all things metal and my brother listens to metalcore only. don't know how he does it. I would get so tired of hearing one subgenre all the time.
Truth. I find that too many metalcore/Deathcore fans don’t listen to or engage with other metal subgenres, and there’s a definite cultural difference there
Can someone fucking explain to me what metal is then? My entire life has just been people saying (band they don't like) isn't metal. I've literally had people tell me Metallica can no longer be considered metal, like wtf
I grew up in the Punk and Hardcore scene in the late 80s and early 90s. The first time I heard a band calling themselves Metalcore was around 1995. It was the french band Kickback at a gig in Belgium together with, let's say more traditional bands. They got the shit beaten out of them.
Yes, metalcore is metal.
And this is coming from someone who isn’t a fan of metalcore whatsoever.
This is an unexpectedly good take. I didn't realize you were so based Bradley. Now I don't have to pretend to have an authoritative opinion on the internet about what metalcore is or isn't. Thank you.
I don't really thunk this argument makes sense. I think modern metalcore is closer to classic metal than, say, mayhem for example. As long as we don't regard any subgenre as it's own thing, I don't think excluding metalcore specifically makes any sense whatsoever.
The argument is more of a cultural one than a sonic one. Metalcore has grown it's own culture, fan base, and set of influences that detaches it from traditional metal culture.
If sonic characteristics were all that mattered, we could plausibly consider hardcore and metal to be the same genre since they both have heavy guitars and angry vocals. Same thing with modern rap and pop production being more similar than ever.
Black metal is still only considered a subgenre because it never gained the cultural significance to become its own sustainable thing outside of the metal ethos.
Nahh going off of vibes alone mayhem sounds much closer to early black sabbath than any metalcore band
brad you definitely hit the nail on the head with this one. the core genres are definitely just utilising the sonic elements of metal but aren't the genre and that's perfectly fine. the same listeners of metal core would likely not listen to metal
I love deathcore and black metal and prog metal, death metal(mgla, dirge, enslaved, gotsu totsu kotsu, etc...) and all that lol not speaking for everyone but I'm sure many who listen to hardcore genres also listen to metal. Maybe I'm wrong tho cause my sister likes hardcore genres and doesn't really listen to any metal lol.
@@mitch5944 i listen to both the metal and core side of things too :)
Metalcore is not metal, nu metal is also not metal, thrash metal is as well not actual metal, glam metal is obviously not metal, old British metal bands are close but not real metal, there is only one metal, the blade that cut the fingers of Tony Iommi, everything else are just posers.
I do agree with the general point, it kind of is and isn't. I personally like some death metal, some melodic, some metalcore, used to like hardcore back in high school bla bla. If I like it, I like it. Out of curiosity what do you think of August Burns Red?
If metalcore isn’t metal, than metal is the second best genre in existence
I'm actually on both sides of the camp of metal and core. I listen to any metal/extreme metal from the 80s to today, and I enjoy a lot of the modern poppy/djenty death/metalcore style music. I started off as an old-school elitist asshole metalhead, but my tastes over the years really have expanded out, and I like any music that sounds good. We should strive to unite as music fans and not limit our tastes based on circles of people in tight fanbases(like mentioned previously, been there done that!) Listen to whatever sounds good! Life is too short.
Choose your next words wisely…
Testicles. That is all.
I don’t care how elitist I sound, it’s not metal. It’s whiny screamy chugging rubbish.
this is the most perfect analysis of metalcore and i completely agree!
ngl metalcore and nu metal back then is my gateway into metal and hardcore, there's no way I found converge, botch, d.r.i, leeway, or any crossover thrash without knowing metal and hardcore term as a teenager
You talked briefly about Poppy, I once head "Concrete" by them and it's just.... what the hell bro ?
By her* Poppy is a solo artist
@@luistijerina Is now at least.
@@luistijerina She's multi-instrumentiste like Wolfgang Van Halen ? Wow I didn't realize it, that's even more impressive...
@@TheThunderwars I meant she’s a solo artist. She is a multi instrumentalist but not a virtuoso. She’s a singer-songwriter and like most solo artists, she tours with a band and uses session musicians on her records.
10:50 yeah that's fair. a lot of people also mix in hardcore with metalcore or there's a bit of overlap so that can bring it a bit further away as well
Holy shit. Black Sabbath was influenced by rock. Fuck. Black Sabbath is not metal
Metal is a *direct* descendant of Rock, so not a good analogy.
Black Sabbath was the first Metal child of Rock.
Every other subgenre of metal is a direct descendant of metal including metalcore but some people say metalcore isn't metal
@iqbalmuhammad2920 no it really is because elitists act like metal is only influenced by other metal genres when factually the only reason metal exists is because they took other genres influences
3:22 RAHHH SKYRIM MENTIONED 💪💪💪⚔️⚔️⚔️⚔️🛡️🛡️🛡️🛡️🛡️🐉🐉🐉🐉🍺🍺🍺🍺
I don't know if its primarily "core" bands that do this, but my issue with a lot of modern metal, is bands having to have a breakdown in EVERY fucking song. Its the equivalent to dubstep drops, but for metal.
Actually agree with this point as someone who loves deathcore lol they could afford chilling on the breakdowns 😭
Metalcore vs Metal feels a lot like American Chinese food vs Authentic Chinese food. American Chinese food has a deep history connected to Chinese immigrants attempting to make their cultural cuisine with the flavours available in North America at the time. While looked down upon, it has become its own stapled cuisine and is loved and appreciated by many for being exactly what it is - even from people of asian culture, to where it is now accepted as a new form of Chinese food.
However, if someone likes American Chinese food, they won't necessarily like authentic Chinese food - and vice versa. They might! but they also might not. Both are Chinese food, both were made my Chinese people, both have a history of Chinese culture within their respective countries, but they are different types of food. And both are disliked by people who have no adventure in trying other kinds of food.
Thats Metalcore vs Metal to me. Both are valid forms of Metal, both have a rich history that come from a similar starting point, both have their fans that dislike the other, and fans that like the other, and while they are two distinct styles of music they are still musical siblings that one's parents will inevitably say "turn that rubbish off, it's just noise!"
I used to be one of those people that talked shit about it, and I realized the problem I had with it..
1) It was the second-era, sorta the mall core sound that just wasn’t my thing. It sounded whiny and milquetoast.
2) my bigger issue was with the fans of that era. They didn’t seem to be able to have a conversation about metal bands outside of that sphere. I was getting into all of these subgenres and I wanted to share and discuss with those around me about it. It always felt like the “core kids” didn’t know anything about Metal before 2000 or didn’t even do a deeper dive into the even more established subgenres and bands.
Nowadays, I embrace metallic hardcore bands like Hatebreed, and or hardcore fusion bands like Code Orange. Black Metal seems to fuse very well with Hardcore as well.
I actually had a shat at work
That sounded just like bradleys sound clip and i had a moment where i was like “ where have i heard this tone before ?!?!” Thanks bradley !! 👍
I always thought Metalcore was a heavier, metally form of Hardcore . Not metal. Meaning it’s all about DIY and counter culture and stuff but it’s a really extra angry teen
Yeah metallic hardcore. That's the issue with it. Its NOT metal and never has been.
@@ChristopherJames1993well, the melodic Metallic hardcore has more influence of melodic death metal
Polaris, currents, Erra, knocked loose, aplha wolf, motionless in white... There are so many good modern metalcore bands that he could have mentioned, Australia is very good at metalcore. And I don't even consider it bad owens.
Reject Metalcore, Embrace Crossover Thrash
I'm actually a long time fan of hardcore and I can confirm that metalcore sounds more like hardcore than actual metal. The Devil Wear Prada has way more in common with Hatebreed and Earth Crisis than they do bands like Exodus or Morbid Angel. And Hatebreed has way more to do with Suicidal Tendancies than they do pure Thrash
Not that metalcore isn't metal at all but it's far closer to hardcore than, say, deathcore even. Deathcore is basically the metal version of metalcore
I've been listening to hardcore for 30 years and I don't see the connection between mallcore bands and actual hardcore.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 I originally misread your comment. I thought you were calling 90's hardcore not "actual hardcore". I thought I was about to get into it with some punk geezer
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 however there is a connection. It's way more rooted in 90's metallic Hardcore than you realize
Of course it is metal. It Sounds like metal - that's it. Just a wasting demagogy
Love a bit of djenty core with those BMTH electro pop mix ups. However also a big fan of black metal, power metal, and traditional death metal. With bands like Can Baard, Dio, and Death up there with my favourites.
Count Your Blessings dropped at a formative age for me though, so I will always have a soft spot for Bring Me The Horizon. 😎
You thrashed the article, but you came to similar conclusion xd
I like Zao... they started in 93 and dropped the metalcore masterpiece "Where Blood and Fire Bring Rest" in 98... Carcass style vocals
I saw converge get bood off stage at a dethklok/mastodon show. It was my favorite part of the night for sure.
I'm picturing it looking like that episode of Metalocalypse with Get Thee Hence
They boo'd the only good band at the show? Cringe.
The "Bullet for my Valentine is the Bon Jovi of Metal core" is such a great observation. I love me some Bullet!
Metalcore has honestly lost it's true identity
I remember when Attack Attack's video for Stick Stickly came out, and around the same time we had Brokencyde, and I just thought... this is it, we've reached the end of music. If this is what people are having to come up with in order to think of something new to do with the medium, we're just out of ideas I guess.
Hahaha i loved how they made everyone so mad with that video back in the day lol
I certainly hope there isn't more division in the metal community, our entire channel relies on it, lol. I'd argue with the genre bending of today, there's more room for exploring other sub genres. Especially with accessibility of music. That's what drove the MySpace era, was the ease of access to new music. Now with streaming, there's endless possibilities for playlist. You definitely brought up some thought-provoking points though... PS, I never saw myself as a core kid but I guess that's how I grew up... Not a scene kid, but definitely a core kid, Lol.
Don't forget shadows fall. They were a definite metalcore powerhouse in the early 2000's
metalcore isnt metal, metal is metal and metalcore is metalcore
Mall metalcore is mall metal, not hardcore.
Metal peaked with "At The Gates-Core". Early BMTH and As Blood Runs Black are goated.
The division was when the hair got short and tattoos on the neck.
At the most simplistic level, this is the true dividing line. I just don’t identify with guys with short hair, neck and full arm sleeve tattoos. It’s a completely different counter culture. It’s like the musical equivalent of gaming culture now.
@@powermonger9090 agree 100%. I'm not saying anything against these types, it's just when I used to find these cool bands and look in the record shops, you can see them looking all metal like with long hair and go "oh shit, I want to hear what these guys sound like" you can tell the different metal styles just from their hair and clothes..glam, death, speed metal..etc. Now they all look like anyone at a hipster bar.