In many ways this was a victim of series 7. Gaiman has I believe said that the first draft was a two-parter (which didn't fit with Moffats view of a 'blockbuster' season, so that had to go.) Also, Gaiman has said that many original drafts went by under the belief that Clara was a victorian Governess, and the kids were the two from the snowmen that that clara looked afrer... so goes to further prove we were SUPPOSED to get Victorian Clara, but Moffat paniced (seemingly at the last minute) that audiences 'weren't ready' for a historical companion... 😭😪🤷♂️
Neil gaiman originally wrote it as a two partner but moffat changed his mind and decided condense it into one part. The original script also had classic cybermen from the invasion in it and it is so annoying that we got to see it as Neil gaiman intended
They should’ve scrapped either Journey to the Center of the Tardis or Crimson Horror in favour of a second part for this. Ex: “Evolution of the Cybermen/Nightmare in Silver.”
I actually met Warwick Davis at Universal Studios, and mentioned this to him. He said he enjoyed doing this episode a lot, and would like to do more with Who. He also apologized to us for making the Leprechaun movies. A really sweet guy, and he was great to take a moment to talk to me and my family. I hope he does do more with Who, just something better than this. I've ranked every modern Doctor Who story, and this falls at 116 out of 136. Yeesh
I thought this episode was fun entertainment. Also this guy says that Neil Gaiman doesn't know how to write kids. He f**king wrote Coraline. While I only watched the animated film based on that novel I know some of the changes but anyway Coraline is awesome. Neil Gaiman does understand how to write kids. Comparing Coraline to Nightmare in Silver is like comparing Batman and Robin 90s movie to Shakespeare's plays. There isn't any comparison but it is still fun to watch.
I really wish that we had got this episode the way it was originally intended by Gaiman with classic Cybermen and all because the original concept sounds SOOOOO good and definitely a lot better than what we got. Maybe that way we wouldn't have got that ANNOYING SUPER SPEED CYBERMAN!
I remember reading somewhere at the time (AV Club?) that Gaiman essentially bailed out of the show during this episode. Apparently he was offered a lot of creative freedom, but kept getting told to change things, so he just walked away disappointed and called it "finished". Sounds plausible enough, to me!
@@BritishBriggsy Originally the idea behind these Cybermen was that the Cybusmen and the Mondasmen met and merged which is why this variant of Cybermen is so terrifyingly effective.
To me, the whole episode is summed up by the opening scene, where the kids don't notice at all the huge theme park pieces all around them and think they're actually on the moon, for literally no reason expect they're out of the camera frame.
The Doctor's Wife is just idea after idea after idea - none of these elements should work together *but they do.* This episode also has idea after idea after idea...but nothing's pulling together. It's a clash, where The Doctor's Wife was a mesh.
I agree with some comments about Gaiman writing children. He wrote Coraline, co-wrote Good Omens, and some other things. I think he had trouble with THESE children.
Mr Clever doesn't make sense as performance, it's not a bad performance but it doesn't make sense for a cyber-related entity, it should be cold, unfeeling calculating instead of just evil 11
I hate the way the kids were brought into the story last episode. Their entire threat is they'll show some hundred year old pictures to their dad. And it's nothing incriminating, just some woman who happens to look like Clara hung out on a submarine in 1986 and in Victorian London. And the Doctor thinks this is a good enough threat to bring them on the TARDIS. They were lucky that they landed where they did, could you imagine if they landed on Skaro during the war between the Thalls and Kaleds? Or slap bang in the middle of the Time War? It just makes the two out to be incredibly irresponsible if they took them out for some weak threats that could have resulted in disaster?
I find this to be an okay episode. Even though Matt Smith didn't make too much of a difference from acting with the doctor and Mr clever, I can tell that he is having a lot of fun. P.s this is in your playlist unlisted.
Having a child along for the big adventure is a classic literary trope. From Jim in Long John Silver to Russell in Up. It's a timeless idea. So we should have a timeless child along for .... Oh, god nvm. I take it all back. And yeah, I'm really disappointed in this episode, especially because it's Neil Gaiman. Not only do we get a taste of what is looks like when Gaiman really succeeds with The Doctor's Wife (basically every interaction between the tardis and the doctor in that is pure gold).
Apparently, the episode was not Gaimans(help) original vision and was often changed to his dismay. Supposedly it should of been a two parter, and the idea of the cyberman adapting is a good idea, but only with a single cyberman. When the plural is introduced the threat is completely diminished. As for the redesign, no. Just no. Cybermen are not robots or iron man. The band of misfit soldiers is fun as well as the setting. It's an episode restrained by the limits of the show itself.
This is actually my Guilty Pleasure choice for Series 7 Part Two. With each Series, I always have a best episode (an episode I, and sometimes the public, consider best) and a few Guilty Pleasure stories, that I enjoy, even if they aren't considered the best. For Smith's era, my bests are: Vincent and the Doctor, The Doctor's Wife, The Angels Take Manhattan & The Rings of Akhaten. My Guilty Pleasures from Smith's era however are: The Lodger, Closing Time, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship & Nightmare in Silver.
I think *most* of the faults were due to rewrites and changes that were out of Gaiman's control. Moffat condensed it into a two parter, it was going to have Invasion-era Cybermen, etc. He's also very disappointed with how the episode turned out. Neil should write a Target novelization of what this *was going to be*
Because a lot of the scenes were rewritten and it wasn't done by Gaiman. I have heard the issues of the production which resulted in the mess which we got.
I kinda love the BTS stuff from Gaiman (lol gottem) of him saying "Wow, this turned out perfectly!" ....and then years later he's complaining about why none of it was his fault and he was forced into everything. Partially true, but still not super classy
7:04 The Cybermen need a downgrade, absolutely. I'm glad Peter convinced Steven that that was the way to go, even if it was the last proper Cyberman story.
I liked it at the time because it actually made the cybermen scary but it did it by turning them into fast moving borg so unlike their normal selves (slow, clunky that try to kill you by talking you to death) that I think they should probably have called them something else. It's a while since I watched it though so I might be mis-remembering it.
I love this thing!! It's so good. Apart from the kids they can die. I love the doctor fighting with the cyber converted version of himself. Gaiman can write kids (Good Omens) so it must be someone else's fault
However in Good Omens they were already written characters that were edited to the screen, not just character existing in a show that became part of the adventure for literally no reason other than to get the Doctor to the scene of the action.
@@DragonsDungeon And going by analysis of the text, most/all of the kids' bits in GO were Pratchett's work. Check the stylometry analysis here: www.elizabethcallaway.net/good-omens-stylometry
Yeah, I think the kids were mostly Pratchett in GO. But Gaiman wrote perfectly good kids in Coraline and The Graveyard Book. He's written picture books with kid heroes, and other stories for younger readers. And those are all fine.
If the Cyber-Doctor and the actual Doctor stood side by side in front of Clara and she had to decide which one was her Doctor, it would be extremely obvious for her to know because of the silver flashy plate on the false Doctor. If he changed his voice that would have helped to.
Imagine if David Tennant's doctor had Mr Clever, imagine how well he'd use this character how much fun he'd have! Be honestly amazing and probably terrifying.
@@jayanderson9375 And this is why he is in a lot of different series/films playing a variety of characters and why he frequently ends up in the top 3 doctors of all time. Just because he doesn't float your boat doesn't make him a bad actor. David Tennant lists at about 6/7 on my list of favourite doctors but I really admire his acting ability. Matt is a very prolific actor so I think the TV and film industry heavily disagrees with you!
Christian Morley don’t try to put words in my mouth and change my position to suit yourself. I didn’t say Smith was bad, just more limited as an actor. And the examples you bring up compared with the body of work of Tenant would seem to support this.
@@jayanderson9375 I think you forget that Matt hasn't been around for as long being a lot younger and therefore has a disadvantage with "body of work" as he has had less time to accumulate credits. Comparing the two side by side at the same age Matt has actually got more credits and had more major roles suggesting he is just as flexible an actor as David. I am not putting words in your mouth I am simply forming an argument through facts and formulating them together. I really couldn't care less what position you take I just disagree with you. Doesn't make either of us wrong or right that's why it is an opinion. But as I said just because he doesn't float your boat does not mean you need to criticise him by calling him a "limited actor" because actors are supposed to be flexible and by therefore calling him inflexible you are calling him worse.
I have been taken by the idea of a series of Dr Who where the Doctor’s companion is a child and their parents, with the wrinkle that the child has be given a short time to live and the Doctor wants to give them a wonderful adventure for their final year. Great Ormond Street children’s hospital is another fantastic British institution and something that the Doctor would be drawn to.
I do like mr. clever, mostly because future potential he could have as a reoccurring villain played by matt smith when the doctor isn't. When Matt Smith expressed an interest in returning to the show, that was what I wanted to see. Because while he's my lease favorite modern doctor actor, his depiction of the doctor and mr clever is still a fun character that I'd like to see play OFF of the doctor.
To be frank I like this episode because of the Doctor fighting himself and how he wins- I just rewatch that scene and sort of ignore the rest of it. I see what you mean, though.
My Initial thought - was multiple people in the tardis. This Strikes me that the original concept had been written for amy and rory but didn't get done. And then later on the bbc was all "Wait - This Clara hasn't really been fleshed out - and we have an episode to fill. Can you Re-Tool one of your existing scripts - maybe the cyberman one - so we can flesh Clara out better" And Gaiman said "Well. If you're paying me for it - sure. But I don't guarantee the quality" You can almost see the agency where behaviour that Amy and Rory would have done were split up between Clara and the Kids. And some of the dialogue. Although not as much.
And still the best use of the cybermen they'd found in the revived Doctor Who to this point was having them be obliterated by the Daleks in the Army of Ghosts and Doomsday 2 parter.
What is seemingly missed is that this episode is pretty much blackmail by angie from the crimson horror cause at the end of the crimson horror angie is seen in the computer and Clara goes over to see what she is doing on it cause it looks like she is doing homework and she tells Clara she has found pictures of women that look exactly like her and she asks if they are here and she tried to deny they are here until angie brings up the snowman Clara and questions if she was there and she says no I was in Yorkshire pretty much confirming they were all her but the snowman version and most of the actual blackmail conversation was done off screen cause by the next episode the doctor is willing to take 2 kids with him a Clara without seemingly questioning it but it looks like the reason for the setting is if I take the kids to an intergalactic amusement park for a day or 2 of fun they will not say anything about what Clara has been doing to their parents not expecting a new version of cybernen that can quickly adapt to their surroundings would show up and cause havoc by taking over angie and Artie's minds as well as the doctor's mind
Not a great episode, for sure, though I don’t have that distain for the kids. When I think of this episode, all that really comes to mind is Warwick Davis interacting with the girl at the end. Somehow, her figuring out he’s the emperor when no one else does seems very Neil Gaiman , or maybe Wizard of Oz... Not sure why the Chess scene didn’t work, maybe as you said, it just didn’t go through enough revisions, or too many hands in the mix, perhaps.
YES! Finally something about burlesque & a tip at that. Definitely something I will take on board and practice. Oh yeah you said something about Nightmare in Silver as well. I can kind of watch it but I remember feeling really disappointed on the first viewing. Usually I can take a bad episode and see how the ideas could work better with changes but this would have to be a complete rewrite in my mind.
It’s actually surprisingly how badly Gaiman wrote Angie and Artie, given how good a job he did with Adam and his friends in Good Omens. I know that he was writing characters that he’d co-created in the latter case, but it’s still quite a contrast, especially seeing as Doctor Who didn’t give him the added job of visualising scenes that he originally intended to just be described in a book.
The Doctor's Wife was originally written for Series 5 but was then Delayed for some reason so Gaimen had more time to look at other episodes with The Doctor, Amy and Rory and improve his script. Not sure how long he had to write for this episode but it does seem a bit rushed in places. Warwick Davis just seems to be there because they needed someone short to hide in a cyberman to play the shortest game of chess, then walk around with only Angie noticing he's shorter than his statue. They may not be the brightest army but how has nobody noticed The Emporer's huge ship is parked so close to the planet until the last 5 minutes of the episode? Also one minute the army captain is acting like Angie is imagining Porridge and the next she's almost saluting him. This is almost the last episode with the kids except they briefly appear in one scene in The Name Of The Doctor.
I've always thought this was originally drafted with Amy and Rory in mind. Clara is knowledgeable and takes charge in a way more believable for Amy, and replace the kids with Rory. Maybe got bumped to the second half of the season and hastily changed
Something I hate that is a theme throughout the entire 7B season is the sexual innuendos /comments that the doctor and Clara make towards each other, specifically the doctor in this episode. Like, I hate the comment "squeezed into a skirt a bit to tight" in regards to Clara, like what the fuck was the point of that? I also feel like this episode highlights one of the reasons I can't stand Clara which is the writers tried to define her as such a clever character, however the way her cleverness is shown never feels coherent or consistent. The doctor just decides to place Clara in charge of the army and I'm just supposed to believe that she would be good at it? It has never been stated that she is good at military strategy, she does not know how to skilfully fight with military weapons, and she had never met nor heard of the cybermen but we are meant to agree with the doctors decision to put her in charge? It just feels like each episode they always make Clara "clever" in a new way despite her never having prior knowledge to whatever she needs to do and the knowledge that she displays is never continued over to another story. Also, I totally was on the side of the Captain, like the doctor did not have any authority over her meaning she really did not need to listen to Clara at all. I get that he wanted to make sure they did not blow up the planet so he placed her in charge, however I feel like they should have continued trying to reason with the captain rather then automatically undermining her. And, in regards to the bomb that she planned to use to blow up the planet, they use in at the end anyway so it really just feels like they wanted Clara to have an important job that she was totally unqualified for to make us feel impressed by her and that's it.
This is quite possibly my least favourite Cyberman story to date (Worse than even Revenge of the Cybermen, Attack of the Cyermen, Silver Nemesis, The Next Doctor, Closing Time and The Timeless Children), and for a time, this was my least favourite story of Modern Who... until 'The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos' came along.
I wouldn’t argue it’s better but I’d rewatch this before rewatching Attack of the Cybermen. How much the Doctor and Peri read as an abusive toxic relationship (complete with gaslighting) made for incredibly uncomfortable viewing.
@@CouncilofGeeks Well, that much is true! (It's a wonder they made that dynamic work really well in Big Finish!) I guess I'm more angry with this one because they had some really cool ideas for the Cybermen and they were all executed extremely poorly, especially everything with the Cyber-Planner (or Mr. Clever or whatever)
@GamingWithChu The major problem with The Timeless Children, IMO, is that after all that build-up of the Lone Cyberman and his new army of Cybermen ascending, that episode completely squandered all of that, taking them all out on the most quickest and most anticlimatic way possible while making it all about the Master.
@GamingWithChu I respectfully disagree about The Doctor Falls because I do think it did a solid job of making the Cybermen a tangible threat. If World Enough and Time was about the body horror aspect of the Cybermen, then The Doctor Falls was about their relentless, never-ending nature. No matter how many times they were destroyed in that episode, more still came with that foreboding threat ever-present throughout. Plus, the Cybermen technically won in that episode since the Doctor didn't destroy every last one of them. As for Death in Heaven, I sort of agree that the Cybermen in that one were puppets of Missy, but my headcanon assessment of that was that they were purely Missy's creations, plus they did some pretty cool and terrifying things with the Cybermen in that two-parter.
The kids blackmailed their way into the story? Wonder if yhay's throwing shade at jow they ended up in the script in the first place? Would explain why Gaiman hadn't written for yhe show again!
Its not in relation the this video but we have a problem. Ive just seen the official poster for Masterful. and even though no ones credited theyve put Ainley and Delgado on the poster!
Correct me if I'm wrong. I refuse to rewatch this so I could be mistaken. Wasn't a major plot point in this episode a nuclear explosion that was voice-activated by the emperor? And the kids decided not to reveal who the Emporer was till the last minute... Then acted all smug despite putting everyones lives at risk, by not telling them who the emperor was
The cybermen don't work in jokey stories imo. The Next Doctor made sure to put them out of the way for most of the story and that kinda worked. If the Doctor find out the Daleks are behind a genocided planet and he can get angry and argue with them. But the cybermen don't work like that. They're a reminder that development in helpful technology will always be followed by darker missteps. This is a massive part of their concept and it's weird to see it abandoned so frequently. Mr Clever is a Dalek. He works exactly like the Dalek from Resolution.
This is actually one of my favorite Episodes in Series 7. To be fair though, I also don't really dislike ANY Doctor Who Episode soo... Take that how you will.
i have accepted now that my love for this episode is not shared by many. i absolutely love the story, i absolutely love mr clever, and i absolutely love the look of the sets. im not a fan of the new cyberman design and an i DEFINITELY dont like the kids. but i just go giddy over matt going back and forth between good and evil, smeagol takes his hat off to u matt
I see why you and others don't like it but personally I do. I love the cyber planner Vs the doctor and really like the setting, i also like all the side characters but the kids are annoying
This is perfect example of what is wrong with the Moffat period, even with a great writer of Neil Gaiman's calibre what Moffat has put on screen is awful. Then we got the Lone Cyberman plot with the new Chibnall era, a far superior product.
Given that The Doctor's Wife went through a dozen or so drafts over more than a year, and reportedly a fair amount of reworking by Moffat, before it came to screen, I think we have to consider the possibility that Gaiman just isn't very good at writing for Doctor Who.
Whilst I do like Gaiman’s other work (not least The Doctor’s Wife), I don’t think we can just deflect the blame from him. I accept that the circumstances were difficult but this was ultimately a poor script. When Moffat wrote Blink, he also had a very short amount of time and couldn’t use the Doctor or Martha, and had a small budget, but he was able to write one of the best stories of all time.
I’m glad to hear you explain that Doctor Who doesn’t tend to write children terribly well in your opinion. I thought you had a blanket issue with child actors.
This wasn’t the best episode of Doctor Who by any means, but I didn’t dislike it. It was a more lighthearted and fun episode. I know it’s weird to call a Cyberman episode lighthearted, but it didn’t showcase how they convert humans it just showed an already formed army. Unlike in Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel where they show the conversion factories, and make you go “oh, god” as they show what these things are and what they are capable of.
Weirdly, this is actually potentially my favorite Cyberman episode Full Stop? So trying to wrap my head around your complaints, I realized that I think the vast majority of them are rooted in the fact that the kids didn't work for you. I had to good luck to appreciate the kids as characters, which I think created a sort of... cascade? Of making nearly everything else you struggle with in this episode work a million times better.
To be honest, I actually like this episode, for me, a Cyberman story has to be really bad if I don't like it. The kids serve no purpose except to make the Doctor and Clara look massively irresponsible for heeding to the threats from the last episode. Seriously, who would their dad believe? His trusted employee or his overly imaginative kids. I really like the idea of the chess game between Doc and the Cyber planner, though why he's so emotional, I have no idea, did the director just forget that the Cybermen and their ilk have no emotions. The humans were really boring and I had literally no interest in the Emperor character.
There's probably a good book in there somewhere. The ridiculous embellishments to the Cybermen seem to have been foisted on Gaiman - he said things like "I want to make the Cybermen creepy and lurking like they were in the 60's", but they made them impossibly powerful which achieves just a deadend. The subplot with Warick Davis is so naff, it's not fed through the story in any interesting way so that you give a shit about the revelation - even his reveal under the Cyberman playing chess is so badly done. I think Matt delivers one of his worst performances - he's not helped by the direction, he's left with egg on his face quite a few times when a cut doesn't happen (like "They're here", they stay on him for a few seconds after and it's massively awkward). I think the ambition of this episode - trying to pull of this world of amusements is just asking too much and it looks really cheap as a result, it's not focused to the stuff they might have been able to do well. I really want to read the comprehensive backgrounds to this story to see why it went so wrong. Oh and Clara is at her most annoying. I try to blot out the kids from my memory....
The back end of series seven is the worst season of Doctor Who for me. (though 11 is a close second) With Jenna, Matt Smith basically phoned it in until The Name of the Doctor, when they brought in Alex Kingston. The spark just wasn't there. I personally think he missed working with Arthur and Karen too much. I agree with your other critiques, and I'd add one, because this was the episode I developed my theory that Clara is really a robot. And there's so many reasons why I thought so.
Why was this set in an amusement park? This story, for what it's worth, could have been anywhere. If you're going to set it in an amusement park that's an entire planet you'd think it'd play a bigger part. Like Nathan said this seemed like an early draft that needed to be gone over a few more times.
I actually disagree about the Mr Clever performance, only because my takeaway from it is Mr Clever is purposefully designed to be similar to the Doctor in order to raise mystery of who is in charge at various points. I also think Smith’s performance is different in nuanced ways and is fantastic. Each to their own though; sorry you didn’t enjoy it.
Even if this story was the two-parter it was supposed to be, it'd still have huge issues. The main thing is the exploration of the Cybermen. There's more interesting stuff going on with these villains than "isn't technology scaaaaary." Can we move on from that? This is probably the worst I've seen Clara, and Matt's campy performance goes right through me. Conceptually, I guess an alien theme park is cool, but it was never gonna work with these characters. Honestly, I think this episode is full of bad ideas with awful execution. Maybe Neil had a tight deadline, maybe Steven didn't have time to properly edit the script, bit something huge must have gone wrong. I've rewatched The Doctor's Wife now and I love it, so I know this writer can be brilliant (even if I'm not as fond of his other work.) There's basically nothing redeeming about this episode for me. Actually, I take that back. The Cyberman playing chess in the opening is awesome (a disregarded idea of Russell's, but who's counting?)
I feel exactly the same. I hate this eppisode, but I just can't bring myself, to slag off anything written by gaiman. I heard this was originally written as a 2 parter, but Moffat just cut it up, to make it a single episode. Gaiman cant write kids?? Have you even watched coroline?? Maybe gaiman is just not too comfortable writing for children he hasn't created. Does the credits of this eppisode go solely to gaiman, or is it gaiman and Moffat? I can't recall, without looking it up. It doesn't help that the child actors are terrible. The girl is alot worse than the boy, but the boy is bad. I think if it wasn't for girl though, he wouldn't seem so bad. When I 1st watched this eppisode my initial thoughts is that Smith just wasn't a good enough actor to pull off playing 2 different characters parallel. I felt in order to make that work he needed something much more to distinguish the doctor from mr clever. Other than an accessory and a slightly different voice. Then I thought to myself but he is! I've battled back and forth with that oppion. Even in the almost people 2 parter, that one scene where the flash doctor goes for Amy, Smith plays the doctor like a completely different person. Again he uses some weird accent, to distinguish the 2, but he didn't need to his performance was enough. Was it the direction? Or was it Matt's poor acting? Either way it didn't work. I loved porridge. I loved seeing Warwick in a part that could have literally be played by anyone. He wasn't just cast because of his unique look. For us British it was the 1st time we had seen Tamsin Outhaite back on our screens for a while. This should have been a good thing. It wasn't. A complete waste of really good, fairly well respected actress. Clara seemed like a completely different person to who we had seen previously. Although Moffat must have liked it, because he did seem to carry on with version of Clara after this series finished. So to summarise in my head gaiman wrote an amazing script, was given 2 terrible characters and actors to work with, the direction wasn't great and Moffat came along cut it all to peices and maybe someone got the keep pile and the trow away away mixed up.
I agree it’s such a messy story! Although I wouldn’t say there’s any utterly terrible actors. Matt was decent and I enjoy Jenna’s performance even though Clara isn’t perfect in any way. But if you mean the kids then I agree, they was bad 😅
@@EmpireEmployeeRick yes I meant the kids. Janna and Matt was brilliant as always. I do think Matt did struggle though, with playing both the doctor and mr clever. He played them both brilliantly but as Nathaniel said they were just too similar. Maybe Matt never got see them both side by side like we did, or betime he did, it was too late to retake. The rest of the supporting cast were good. Some more memorable than others. I've never had a problem with Jenna's acting. I didn't even mind her ever evolving character so much. Its pretty obvious Moffat never really intended her character to go beyond the impossible girl arch. It's just here we see alot more of the Clara that is too come in future. Quite different to how she was the rest of this series. More who she was in the seasons to follow
karen stewart I completely agree! And yeah I see what you mean with Clara! Honestly even though Claras writing wasn’t always perfect, I think Jenna owned it. Such a talented actress and I agree with Matt, he was too similar and it felt like he didn’t get to see the side by side. He has always said he didn’t like the role of “mr clever” haha :)
It's definitely a mess, the kids are bloody pointless and annoying but overall, I still have fun with it. I'd say it's the weakest of the series but I still enjoy it enough. I'm never gonna pick it but when I rewatch a series it's OK.
A friend of mine cosplays as Mr. Clever. There's actually a cool story behind that. adventuresofclever.com/2015/02/02/haters-gone-hate-a-tldr-retelling-of-my-year-as-mr-clever/
Not good. It's pretty funny and the dialogue is good (barring Angie and Artie), but it really suffers from not being a two parter, not to mention that despite a good design these Cybermen suck.
Easily my least favorite episode of series 7 and one of my all time least favorites. There was nothing to really like about this episode. The plot was stale, the characters were boring, I couldn’t find a way to care about what’s going on. And worst of all: Angie and Artie. Fuck them. Of all of the child characters this show has had, they are the worst. And that says a lot. The Cybermen redesign was terrible. The only thing I liked was Matt Smith’s performance as Mr. Clever. That’s it. And it’s not enough to save this episode. Most episodes of series 7 were just mediocre. This one was straight up terrible imo.
![DID IT SUCK? | Doctor Who [NIGHTMARE IN SILVER REVIEW]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ye_0e_X4MvE/mqdefault.jpg)
In many ways this was a victim of series 7. Gaiman has I believe said that the first draft was a two-parter (which didn't fit with Moffats view of a 'blockbuster' season, so that had to go.) Also, Gaiman has said that many original drafts went by under the belief that Clara was a victorian Governess, and the kids were the two from the snowmen that that clara looked afrer... so goes to further prove we were SUPPOSED to get Victorian Clara, but Moffat paniced (seemingly at the last minute) that audiences 'weren't ready' for a historical companion... 😭😪🤷♂️
I thought it was the BBC who wanted it to be a modern companion?
Neil gaiman originally wrote it as a two partner but moffat changed his mind and decided condense it into one part.
The original script also had classic cybermen from the invasion in it and it is so annoying that we got to see it as Neil gaiman intended
That was the same as the power of three I think. I guess S7 was originally meant to have 2 parters but later got removed
They should’ve scrapped either Journey to the Center of the Tardis or Crimson Horror in favour of a second part for this.
Ex: “Evolution of the Cybermen/Nightmare in Silver.”
To be fair though, I do think this is the best Cybermen redesign in Nu Who. I was never a fan of the RTD era "Stormtroopers".
@@pious83
I misread your comment as 'Stomp troopers' and honestly that's accurate too 🤣
@@pious83How is this possibly better than the RTD era design.
I actually met Warwick Davis at Universal Studios, and mentioned this to him. He said he enjoyed doing this episode a lot, and would like to do more with Who. He also apologized to us for making the Leprechaun movies. A really sweet guy, and he was great to take a moment to talk to me and my family. I hope he does do more with Who, just something better than this. I've ranked every modern Doctor Who story, and this falls at 116 out of 136. Yeesh
I’ve never understood the hate for this episode. I really enjoy this one.
I thought this episode was fun entertainment.
Also this guy says that Neil Gaiman doesn't know how to write kids. He f**king wrote Coraline. While I only watched the animated film based on that novel I know some of the changes but anyway Coraline is awesome. Neil Gaiman does understand how to write kids.
Comparing Coraline to Nightmare in Silver is like comparing Batman and Robin 90s movie to Shakespeare's plays. There isn't any comparison but it is still fun to watch.
I think it’s mainly because some of the ideas are kinda whacky and it feels jam packed with ideas. Should have been a two parter imo
@@modmaker7617 he doesn't know how to write _those_ kids
I really wish that we had got this episode the way it was originally intended by Gaiman with classic Cybermen and all because the original concept sounds SOOOOO good and definitely a lot better than what we got. Maybe that way we wouldn't have got that ANNOYING SUPER SPEED CYBERMAN!
Oh wow - I knew this episode was meant to be a 2 parter... but with classic cybermen as well? Argh.. my disappointment is furthered xD
I remember reading somewhere at the time (AV Club?) that Gaiman essentially bailed out of the show during this episode. Apparently he was offered a lot of creative freedom, but kept getting told to change things, so he just walked away disappointed and called it "finished". Sounds plausible enough, to me!
@@BritishBriggsy Originally the idea behind these Cybermen was that the Cybusmen and the Mondasmen met and merged which is why this variant of Cybermen is so terrifyingly effective.
To me, the whole episode is summed up by the opening scene, where the kids don't notice at all the huge theme park pieces all around them and think they're actually on the moon, for literally no reason expect they're out of the camera frame.
Whenever I think of the words “wasted potential” with regards to who, this episode sticks out
The Doctor's Wife is just idea after idea after idea - none of these elements should work together *but they do.* This episode also has idea after idea after idea...but nothing's pulling together. It's a clash, where The Doctor's Wife was a mesh.
I know someone who cosplays exclusively as Mr. Clever, so for them the episode is very special.
Waves hi
They should have brought back Toby Jones for the Mr clever (in the doctor's head)
I agree with some comments about Gaiman writing children. He wrote Coraline, co-wrote Good Omens, and some other things. I think he had trouble with THESE children.
P. S. I love Gaiman, and have infected most of my family in the Gaiman craze.
Apparently he initially thought it was gonna be the Victorian Children, as he thought we were getting Victorian Clara at first,
Mr Clever doesn't make sense as performance, it's not a bad performance but it doesn't make sense for a cyber-related entity, it should be cold, unfeeling calculating instead of just evil 11
THANK YOU!!!! This is by far my biggest issue with the story.
I hate the way the kids were brought into the story last episode. Their entire threat is they'll show some hundred year old pictures to their dad. And it's nothing incriminating, just some woman who happens to look like Clara hung out on a submarine in 1986 and in Victorian London. And the Doctor thinks this is a good enough threat to bring them on the TARDIS. They were lucky that they landed where they did, could you imagine if they landed on Skaro during the war between the Thalls and Kaleds? Or slap bang in the middle of the Time War? It just makes the two out to be incredibly irresponsible if they took them out for some weak threats that could have resulted in disaster?
I find this to be an okay episode. Even though Matt Smith didn't make too much of a difference from acting with the doctor and Mr clever, I can tell that he is having a lot of fun.
P.s this is in your playlist unlisted.
Not for me
Having a child along for the big adventure is a classic literary trope. From Jim in Long John Silver to Russell in Up. It's a timeless idea. So we should have a timeless child along for .... Oh, god nvm. I take it all back.
And yeah, I'm really disappointed in this episode, especially because it's Neil Gaiman. Not only do we get a taste of what is looks like when Gaiman really succeeds with The Doctor's Wife (basically every interaction between the tardis and the doctor in that is pure gold).
Apparently, the episode was not Gaimans(help) original vision and was often changed to his dismay. Supposedly it should of been a two parter, and the idea of the cyberman adapting is a good idea, but only with a single cyberman. When the plural is introduced the threat is completely diminished. As for the redesign, no. Just no. Cybermen are not robots or iron man. The band of misfit soldiers is fun as well as the setting. It's an episode restrained by the limits of the show itself.
This is actually my Guilty Pleasure choice for Series 7 Part Two. With each Series, I always have a best episode (an episode I, and sometimes the public, consider best) and a few Guilty Pleasure stories, that I enjoy, even if they aren't considered the best.
For Smith's era, my bests are: Vincent and the Doctor, The Doctor's Wife, The Angels Take Manhattan & The Rings of Akhaten.
My Guilty Pleasures from Smith's era however are: The Lodger, Closing Time, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship & Nightmare in Silver.
I think *most* of the faults were due to rewrites and changes that were out of Gaiman's control. Moffat condensed it into a two parter, it was going to have Invasion-era Cybermen, etc. He's also very disappointed with how the episode turned out. Neil should write a Target novelization of what this *was going to be*
Because a lot of the scenes were rewritten and it wasn't done by Gaiman. I have heard the issues of the production which resulted in the mess which we got.
@Quilo Sky Yeah that is true, Smith is great. Although the writing isn't as good as it should be.
I kinda love the BTS stuff from Gaiman (lol gottem) of him saying "Wow, this turned out perfectly!"
....and then years later he's complaining about why none of it was his fault and he was forced into everything. Partially true, but still not super classy
7:04 The Cybermen need a downgrade, absolutely. I'm glad Peter convinced Steven that that was the way to go, even if it was the last proper Cyberman story.
I liked it at the time because it actually made the cybermen scary but it did it by turning them into fast moving borg so unlike their normal selves (slow, clunky that try to kill you by talking you to death) that I think they should probably have called them something else. It's a while since I watched it though so I might be mis-remembering it.
Please say you're going to cover Night of the Doctor.
Is that even a question
I love this thing!! It's so good. Apart from the kids they can die. I love the doctor fighting with the cyber converted version of himself. Gaiman can write kids (Good Omens) so it must be someone else's fault
However in Good Omens they were already written characters that were edited to the screen, not just character existing in a show that became part of the adventure for literally no reason other than to get the Doctor to the scene of the action.
@@DragonsDungeon And going by analysis of the text, most/all of the kids' bits in GO were Pratchett's work. Check the stylometry analysis here: www.elizabethcallaway.net/good-omens-stylometry
@@DragonsDungeon characters written previously by Gaiman and Pratchett though
That's exactly how I felt about the kids.
Yeah, I think the kids were mostly Pratchett in GO. But Gaiman wrote perfectly good kids in Coraline and The Graveyard Book. He's written picture books with kid heroes, and other stories for younger readers. And those are all fine.
It says something about the troubled production of that period that a lot the episodes of that era have the "first draft" feel about them
If the Cyber-Doctor and the actual Doctor stood side by side in front of Clara and she had to decide which one was her Doctor, it would be extremely obvious for her to know because of the silver flashy plate on the false Doctor. If he changed his voice that would have helped to.
Imagine if David Tennant's doctor had Mr Clever, imagine how well he'd use this character how much fun he'd have! Be honestly amazing and probably terrifying.
Probably been like Crowley from good omens 😁
Greasy hair good point, unfortunately Matt Smith is nowhere near as talented an actor.
@@jayanderson9375 And this is why he is in a lot of different series/films playing a variety of characters and why he frequently ends up in the top 3 doctors of all time. Just because he doesn't float your boat doesn't make him a bad actor. David Tennant lists at about 6/7 on my list of favourite doctors but I really admire his acting ability. Matt is a very prolific actor so I think the TV and film industry heavily disagrees with you!
Christian Morley don’t try to put words in my mouth and change my position to suit yourself. I didn’t say Smith was bad, just more limited as an actor. And the examples you bring up compared with the body of work of Tenant would seem to support this.
@@jayanderson9375 I think you forget that Matt hasn't been around for as long being a lot younger and therefore has a disadvantage with "body of work" as he has had less time to accumulate credits. Comparing the two side by side at the same age Matt has actually got more credits and had more major roles suggesting he is just as flexible an actor as David. I am not putting words in your mouth I am simply forming an argument through facts and formulating them together. I really couldn't care less what position you take I just disagree with you. Doesn't make either of us wrong or right that's why it is an opinion. But as I said just because he doesn't float your boat does not mean you need to criticise him by calling him a "limited actor" because actors are supposed to be flexible and by therefore calling him inflexible you are calling him worse.
My favorite episode. I was so blown away by Matt's performance. I looooved the Cyberplanner.
I have been taken by the idea of a series of Dr Who where the Doctor’s companion is a child and their parents, with the wrinkle that the child has be given a short time to live and the Doctor wants to give them a wonderful adventure for their final year.
Great Ormond Street children’s hospital is another fantastic British institution and something that the Doctor would be drawn to.
I do like mr. clever, mostly because future potential he could have as a reoccurring villain played by matt smith when the doctor isn't. When Matt Smith expressed an interest in returning to the show, that was what I wanted to see. Because while he's my lease favorite modern doctor actor, his depiction of the doctor and mr clever is still a fun character that I'd like to see play OFF of the doctor.
To be frank I like this episode because of the Doctor fighting himself and how he wins- I just rewatch that scene and sort of ignore the rest of it. I see what you mean, though.
My Initial thought - was multiple people in the tardis. This Strikes me that the original concept had been written for amy and rory but didn't get done. And then later on the bbc was all "Wait - This Clara hasn't really been fleshed out - and we have an episode to fill. Can you Re-Tool one of your existing scripts - maybe the cyberman one - so we can flesh Clara out better"
And Gaiman said "Well. If you're paying me for it - sure. But I don't guarantee the quality"
You can almost see the agency where behaviour that Amy and Rory would have done were split up between Clara and the Kids. And some of the dialogue. Although not as much.
And still the best use of the cybermen they'd found in the revived Doctor Who to this point was having them be obliterated by the Daleks in the Army of Ghosts and Doomsday 2 parter.
You just reminded me of Malcolm McDowell in "A Clockwork Orange" when you pulled your head down.
I was cured alright.
There's a reason that trope is called "the Kubrick Stare." 😉
What is seemingly missed is that this episode is pretty much blackmail by angie from the crimson horror cause at the end of the crimson horror angie is seen in the computer and Clara goes over to see what she is doing on it cause it looks like she is doing homework and she tells Clara she has found pictures of women that look exactly like her and she asks if they are here and she tried to deny they are here until angie brings up the snowman Clara and questions if she was there and she says no I was in Yorkshire pretty much confirming they were all her but the snowman version and most of the actual blackmail conversation was done off screen cause by the next episode the doctor is willing to take 2 kids with him a Clara without seemingly questioning it but it looks like the reason for the setting is if I take the kids to an intergalactic amusement park for a day or 2 of fun they will not say anything about what Clara has been doing to their parents not expecting a new version of cybernen that can quickly adapt to their surroundings would show up and cause havoc by taking over angie and Artie's minds as well as the doctor's mind
This episode is the definition of missed potential and wasted ideas.
Nitpix gives this episode a 10/10. I wonder what I would give it when I reach my rewatch. Just started series 4.
I kinda liked it except for the annoying kids and emperor reveal haha
Not a great episode, for sure, though I don’t have that distain for the kids. When I think of this episode, all that really comes to mind is Warwick Davis interacting with the girl at the end. Somehow, her figuring out he’s the emperor when no one else does seems very Neil Gaiman , or maybe Wizard of Oz...
Not sure why the Chess scene didn’t work, maybe as you said, it just didn’t go through enough revisions, or too many hands in the mix, perhaps.
YES! Finally something about burlesque & a tip at that. Definitely something I will take on board and practice.
Oh yeah you said something about Nightmare in Silver as well. I can kind of watch it but I remember feeling really disappointed on the first viewing. Usually I can take a bad episode and see how the ideas could work better with changes but this would have to be a complete rewrite in my mind.
It’s actually surprisingly how badly Gaiman wrote Angie and Artie, given how good a job he did with Adam and his friends in Good Omens. I know that he was writing characters that he’d co-created in the latter case, but it’s still quite a contrast, especially seeing as Doctor Who didn’t give him the added job of visualising scenes that he originally intended to just be described in a book.
The Doctor's Wife was originally written for Series 5 but was then Delayed for some reason so Gaimen had more time to look at other episodes with The Doctor, Amy and Rory and improve his script. Not sure how long he had to write for this episode but it does seem a bit rushed in places. Warwick Davis just seems to be there because they needed someone short to hide in a cyberman to play the shortest game of chess, then walk around with only Angie noticing he's shorter than his statue. They may not be the brightest army but how has nobody noticed The Emporer's huge ship is parked so close to the planet until the last 5 minutes of the episode? Also one minute the army captain is acting like Angie is imagining Porridge and the next she's almost saluting him. This is almost the last episode with the kids except they briefly appear in one scene in The Name Of The Doctor.
I've always thought this was originally drafted with Amy and Rory in mind. Clara is knowledgeable and takes charge in a way more believable for Amy, and replace the kids with Rory. Maybe got bumped to the second half of the season and hastily changed
Something I hate that is a theme throughout the entire 7B season is the sexual innuendos /comments that the doctor and Clara make towards each other, specifically the doctor in this episode. Like, I hate the comment "squeezed into a skirt a bit to tight" in regards to Clara, like what the fuck was the point of that?
I also feel like this episode highlights one of the reasons I can't stand Clara which is the writers tried to define her as such a clever character, however the way her cleverness is shown never feels coherent or consistent. The doctor just decides to place Clara in charge of the army and I'm just supposed to believe that she would be good at it? It has never been stated that she is good at military strategy, she does not know how to skilfully fight with military weapons, and she had never met nor heard of the cybermen but we are meant to agree with the doctors decision to put her in charge? It just feels like each episode they always make Clara "clever" in a new way despite her never having prior knowledge to whatever she needs to do and the knowledge that she displays is never continued over to another story.
Also, I totally was on the side of the Captain, like the doctor did not have any authority over her meaning she really did not need to listen to Clara at all. I get that he wanted to make sure they did not blow up the planet so he placed her in charge, however I feel like they should have continued trying to reason with the captain rather then automatically undermining her. And, in regards to the bomb that she planned to use to blow up the planet, they use in at the end anyway so it really just feels like they wanted Clara to have an important job that she was totally unqualified for to make us feel impressed by her and that's it.
If a child companion grew up on the TARDIS, they may be different to normal kids, because they were raised with danger
This is quite possibly my least favourite Cyberman story to date (Worse than even Revenge of the Cybermen, Attack of the Cyermen, Silver Nemesis, The Next Doctor, Closing Time and The Timeless Children), and for a time, this was my least favourite story of Modern Who... until 'The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos' came along.
I wouldn’t argue it’s better but I’d rewatch this before rewatching Attack of the Cybermen. How much the Doctor and Peri read as an abusive toxic relationship (complete with gaslighting) made for incredibly uncomfortable viewing.
@@CouncilofGeeks Well, that much is true! (It's a wonder they made that dynamic work really well in Big Finish!) I guess I'm more angry with this one because they had some really cool ideas for the Cybermen and they were all executed extremely poorly, especially everything with the Cyber-Planner (or Mr. Clever or whatever)
@GamingWithChu The major problem with The Timeless Children, IMO, is that after all that build-up of the Lone Cyberman and his new army of Cybermen ascending, that episode completely squandered all of that, taking them all out on the most quickest and most anticlimatic way possible while making it all about the Master.
@GamingWithChu I respectfully disagree about The Doctor Falls because I do think it did a solid job of making the Cybermen a tangible threat. If World Enough and Time was about the body horror aspect of the Cybermen, then The Doctor Falls was about their relentless, never-ending nature. No matter how many times they were destroyed in that episode, more still came with that foreboding threat ever-present throughout. Plus, the Cybermen technically won in that episode since the Doctor didn't destroy every last one of them.
As for Death in Heaven, I sort of agree that the Cybermen in that one were puppets of Missy, but my headcanon assessment of that was that they were purely Missy's creations, plus they did some pretty cool and terrifying things with the Cybermen in that two-parter.
Haha, I'd blissfully forgotten all about this episode.
Getting so excited about season 7 ranked
The only good thing to come out of this, is Matt Smith ability to portray skynet
This is the episode people should quote when they're asked why they think series 7 is the worst.
The kids blackmailed their way into the story? Wonder if yhay's throwing shade at jow they ended up in the script in the first place? Would explain why Gaiman hadn't written for yhe show again!
Its not in relation the this video but we have a problem. Ive just seen the official poster for Masterful. and even though no ones credited theyve put Ainley and Delgado on the poster!
Gaiman's line "You're a mystery wrapped in an enigma squeezed in a skirt that's just a little bit... too tight." has NOT aged well.
Which is a shame because I use that as styling advice.
@@CouncilofGeeks 🤣
Correct me if I'm wrong. I refuse to rewatch this so I could be mistaken.
Wasn't a major plot point in this episode a nuclear explosion that was voice-activated by the emperor? And the kids decided not to reveal who the Emporer was till the last minute... Then acted all smug despite putting everyones lives at risk, by not telling them who the emperor was
I can’t remember if the kids knew about the bomb before the point when they said it.
The cybermen don't work in jokey stories imo. The Next Doctor made sure to put them out of the way for most of the story and that kinda worked.
If the Doctor find out the Daleks are behind a genocided planet and he can get angry and argue with them. But the cybermen don't work like that. They're a reminder that development in helpful technology will always be followed by darker missteps. This is a massive part of their concept and it's weird to see it abandoned so frequently.
Mr Clever is a Dalek. He works exactly like the Dalek from Resolution.
This is actually one of my favorite Episodes in Series 7. To be fair though, I also don't really dislike ANY Doctor Who Episode soo... Take that how you will.
It's basically the Moonbase
I always love you reviews.
i have accepted now that my love for this episode is not shared by many. i absolutely love the story, i absolutely love mr clever, and i absolutely love the look of the sets. im not a fan of the new cyberman design and an i DEFINITELY dont like the kids. but i just go giddy over matt going back and forth between good and evil, smeagol takes his hat off to u matt
I see why you and others don't like it but personally I do. I love the cyber planner Vs the doctor and really like the setting, i also like all the side characters but the kids are annoying
This is perfect example of what is wrong with the Moffat period, even with a great writer of Neil Gaiman's calibre what Moffat has put on screen is awful. Then we got the Lone Cyberman plot with the new Chibnall era, a far superior product.
Those kids, wow they ruined the whole experience for me.
The episode that introduces the Iron Man Cybermen. Bit of a "meh" episode in my view, then again, so is most of series 7.
Such a waste of Tamzin Outhwaite
I totally get what you were saying about Mr Clever but personal I thought he was the strongest part of the episode
Given that The Doctor's Wife went through a dozen or so drafts over more than a year, and reportedly a fair amount of reworking by Moffat, before it came to screen, I think we have to consider the possibility that Gaiman just isn't very good at writing for Doctor Who.
cool visuals though
Whilst I do like Gaiman’s other work (not least The Doctor’s Wife), I don’t think we can just deflect the blame from him. I accept that the circumstances were difficult but this was ultimately a poor script. When Moffat wrote Blink, he also had a very short amount of time and couldn’t use the Doctor or Martha, and had a small budget, but he was able to write one of the best stories of all time.
Only watch this if You're a Die Hard Warrick Davis fan....
The kids are not good but to me I like just about everything else in this episode.
I’m glad to hear you explain that Doctor Who doesn’t tend to write children terribly well in your opinion. I thought you had a blanket issue with child actors.
This wasn’t the best episode of Doctor Who by any means, but I didn’t dislike it. It was a more lighthearted and fun episode. I know it’s weird to call a Cyberman episode lighthearted, but it didn’t showcase how they convert humans it just showed an already formed army. Unlike in Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel where they show the conversion factories, and make you go “oh, god” as they show what these things are and what they are capable of.
off topic but is that Ein on your shelf behind you
Weirdly, this is actually potentially my favorite Cyberman episode Full Stop? So trying to wrap my head around your complaints, I realized that I think the vast majority of them are rooted in the fact that the kids didn't work for you. I had to good luck to appreciate the kids as characters, which I think created a sort of... cascade? Of making nearly everything else you struggle with in this episode work a million times better.
I actually really like this story
Council of geeks, what are you going to do when you're done catching up with doctor who?
To be honest, I actually like this episode, for me, a Cyberman story has to be really bad if I don't like it.
The kids serve no purpose except to make the Doctor and Clara look massively irresponsible for heeding to the threats from the last episode. Seriously, who would their dad believe? His trusted employee or his overly imaginative kids.
I really like the idea of the chess game between Doc and the Cyber planner, though why he's so emotional, I have no idea, did the director just forget that the Cybermen and their ilk have no emotions. The humans were really boring and I had literally no interest in the Emperor character.
There's probably a good book in there somewhere. The ridiculous embellishments to the Cybermen seem to have been foisted on Gaiman - he said things like "I want to make the Cybermen creepy and lurking like they were in the 60's", but they made them impossibly powerful which achieves just a deadend.
The subplot with Warick Davis is so naff, it's not fed through the story in any interesting way so that you give a shit about the revelation - even his reveal under the Cyberman playing chess is so badly done.
I think Matt delivers one of his worst performances - he's not helped by the direction, he's left with egg on his face quite a few times when a cut doesn't happen (like "They're here", they stay on him for a few seconds after and it's massively awkward).
I think the ambition of this episode - trying to pull of this world of amusements is just asking too much and it looks really cheap as a result, it's not focused to the stuff they might have been able to do well.
I really want to read the comprehensive backgrounds to this story to see why it went so wrong. Oh and Clara is at her most annoying. I try to blot out the kids from my memory....
I choose to believe that the no difference in the doctor and mr clever’s personality was a directing choice because I think Matt Smith can do no wrong
Highlight of the day
The back end of series seven is the worst season of Doctor Who for me. (though 11 is a close second) With Jenna, Matt Smith basically phoned it in until The Name of the Doctor, when they brought in Alex Kingston. The spark just wasn't there. I personally think he missed working with Arthur and Karen too much. I agree with your other critiques, and I'd add one, because this was the episode I developed my theory that Clara is really a robot. And there's so many reasons why I thought so.
Maybe, but Matt and Jenna was close friends. But you could be right!
also imo Jenna is a great actress, the writing let her down and made Clara out to be a robot imo haha
Nope, haven’t rewatched this recently, and I’m not going to.
I really like this episode.
This is my third least favorite story ever. What a mess.
Oh, also, nice Matt Smith cosplay. 10/10
Why was this set in an amusement park? This story, for what it's worth, could have been anywhere. If you're going to set it in an amusement park that's an entire planet you'd think it'd play a bigger part. Like Nathan said this seemed like an early draft that needed to be gone over a few more times.
I actually disagree about the Mr Clever performance, only because my takeaway from it is Mr Clever is purposefully designed to be similar to the Doctor in order to raise mystery of who is in charge at various points. I also think Smith’s performance is different in nuanced ways and is fantastic. Each to their own though; sorry you didn’t enjoy it.
The kids kind of weakened it for me. Also...why were so many Cybermen on the planet? Maybe I missed something.
Even if this story was the two-parter it was supposed to be, it'd still have huge issues.
The main thing is the exploration of the Cybermen. There's more interesting stuff going on with these villains than "isn't technology scaaaaary." Can we move on from that?
This is probably the worst I've seen Clara, and Matt's campy performance goes right through me. Conceptually, I guess an alien theme park is cool, but it was never gonna work with these characters.
Honestly, I think this episode is full of bad ideas with awful execution. Maybe Neil had a tight deadline, maybe Steven didn't have time to properly edit the script, bit something huge must have gone wrong. I've rewatched The Doctor's Wife now and I love it, so I know this writer can be brilliant (even if I'm not as fond of his other work.) There's basically nothing redeeming about this episode for me. Actually, I take that back. The Cyberman playing chess in the opening is awesome (a disregarded idea of Russell's, but who's counting?)
I take it you've heard of Silver Turk the Cyberman playing chess idea is more fleshed out there?
Nobody's ENTITLED to a decent episode, are they ? So why do people get ANGRY when they don't get one ?
I feel exactly the same. I hate this eppisode, but I just can't bring myself, to slag off anything written by gaiman. I heard this was originally written as a 2 parter, but Moffat just cut it up, to make it a single episode.
Gaiman cant write kids?? Have you even watched coroline?? Maybe gaiman is just not too comfortable writing for children he hasn't created.
Does the credits of this eppisode go solely to gaiman, or is it gaiman and Moffat? I can't recall, without looking it up. It doesn't help that the child actors are terrible. The girl is alot worse than the boy, but the boy is bad. I think if it wasn't for girl though, he wouldn't seem so bad.
When I 1st watched this eppisode my initial thoughts is that Smith just wasn't a good enough actor to pull off playing 2 different characters parallel. I felt in order to make that work he needed something much more to distinguish the doctor from mr clever. Other than an accessory and a slightly different voice. Then I thought to myself but he is! I've battled back and forth with that oppion. Even in the almost people 2 parter, that one scene where the flash doctor goes for Amy, Smith plays the doctor like a completely different person. Again he uses some weird accent, to distinguish the 2, but he didn't need to his performance was enough. Was it the direction? Or was it Matt's poor acting? Either way it didn't work.
I loved porridge. I loved seeing Warwick in a part that could have literally be played by anyone. He wasn't just cast because of his unique look.
For us British it was the 1st time we had seen Tamsin Outhaite back on our screens for a while. This should have been a good thing. It wasn't. A complete waste of really good, fairly well respected actress.
Clara seemed like a completely different person to who we had seen previously. Although Moffat must have liked it, because he did seem to carry on with version of Clara after this series finished.
So to summarise in my head gaiman wrote an amazing script, was given 2 terrible characters and actors to work with, the direction wasn't great and Moffat came along cut it all to peices and maybe someone got the keep pile and the trow away away mixed up.
I agree it’s such a messy story! Although I wouldn’t say there’s any utterly terrible actors. Matt was decent and I enjoy Jenna’s performance even though Clara isn’t perfect in any way. But if you mean the kids then I agree, they was bad 😅
@@EmpireEmployeeRick yes I meant the kids. Janna and Matt was brilliant as always. I do think Matt did struggle though, with playing both the doctor and mr clever. He played them both brilliantly but as Nathaniel said they were just too similar. Maybe Matt never got see them both side by side like we did, or betime he did, it was too late to retake. The rest of the supporting cast were good. Some more memorable than others.
I've never had a problem with Jenna's acting. I didn't even mind her ever evolving character so much. Its pretty obvious Moffat never really intended her character to go beyond the impossible girl arch. It's just here we see alot more of the Clara that is too come in future. Quite different to how she was the rest of this series. More who she was in the seasons to follow
karen stewart I completely agree! And yeah I see what you mean with Clara! Honestly even though Claras writing wasn’t always perfect, I think Jenna owned it. Such a talented actress and I agree with Matt, he was too similar and it felt like he didn’t get to see the side by side. He has always said he didn’t like the role of “mr clever” haha :)
This episode is so disappointing because the writer's previous episode was one of the best.
It's definitely a mess, the kids are bloody pointless and annoying but overall, I still have fun with it. I'd say it's the weakest of the series but I still enjoy it enough. I'm never gonna pick it but when I rewatch a series it's OK.
because for as awesome as Neil gaiman not even he can make DW chilren likable
I like this one! But I can see that it have BIG problems...
A friend of mine cosplays as Mr. Clever. There's actually a cool story behind that. adventuresofclever.com/2015/02/02/haters-gone-hate-a-tldr-retelling-of-my-year-as-mr-clever/
WahRick Davis. U.K. pronunciation, doncha'know? 🙂
I ....cringed at that moment. 😖 😆
Not good. It's pretty funny and the dialogue is good (barring Angie and Artie), but it really suffers from not being a two parter, not to mention that despite a good design these Cybermen suck.
take the kids out of the ep and it would be ok
I like Matt and Jenna as always... the music is good too, and a nice guest appearance with Warwick Davis. but besides that its awful. 2/10
Easily my least favorite episode of series 7 and one of my all time least favorites. There was nothing to really like about this episode. The plot was stale, the characters were boring, I couldn’t find a way to care about what’s going on. And worst of all: Angie and Artie. Fuck them. Of all of the child characters this show has had, they are the worst. And that says a lot. The Cybermen redesign was terrible. The only thing I liked was Matt Smith’s performance as Mr. Clever. That’s it. And it’s not enough to save this episode. Most episodes of series 7 were just mediocre. This one was straight up terrible imo.
Probably my least favourite episode ever :(